@makaisenki and by the way, in effect, the teacher's unions are the only thing standing in the way of the voucher system, so if you do agree with me that we should get rid of the unions, then if they're gone the voucher system will soon enough be implemented.
@makaisenki lol calm down dude. people like you and michael moore seem to be so devoted to being right that you use anger as a last resort. you obviously have very little knowledge of how a free market would work, most likely because you grew up with whiny hippies or idiots for parents. oh well, no need to bother explaining stuff to a layman anymore.
@makaisenki i'm sorry, did you just imply that the inability to fire a bunch of lazy mooches and peadophiles is more important than text book quality? that's like blaming the fruit because the shop owner through it at you. half of my teachers don't even use the text books. the good ones, really. ofcourse, my economics teacher does.
@samm1809 In Finland there are 3 teachers for each class of 26 students. Each of these teachers come from the top 10 percent of the class rather than in America where over 40 percent of the teachers come from the bottom of the glass.
Finland outscores just about every other country in education. We're ranked 17 in science education and rank 24 in math. They rank number 1 in both categories. 2 teachers teach, 1 helps those who need extra attention. That's more than a voucher will do guaranteed.
@makaisenki you can't attribute the success of a system relative to other systems like that. finland has comprehensive school until the student is 15, then they go to either high school or 'trade' school. america doesn't have those sorts of options becuase an unbelievable amount of the people educated in the system are children of illegal aliens who don't pay taxes, who the same people who want socialism refuse to let be kicked out of the country even though they don't WANT to be legal.
You said: "they have trialed the voucher system in the US and the UK. both times it worked"
Then you said "you can't attribute the success of a system relative to other systems like that"
So long time earlier you stated that the voucher system works in UK and other places therefore use it here. Then you claim that illegals are why Finland style wouldnt' work here.
They spend half as much per student. as we do. If we could get costs down then your argument holds no water at all.
@makaisenki no, but as i said, finland has a different grade structure to the US or australia. in my opinion school grading and age shouldn't be structured by government at all, but that's irrelevant. you have no reason to say that the supposed superiority of the finish system is based on the fact that it is socialised and not on the difference of the grade structure. the success of the voucher system however will always be based on the same reasoning- choice and competition.
@samm1809 Look at the film "Waiting for Superman" at least watch the official trailer. It's about how much our schools are failing the kids. This is a perfect example of why your voucher system CAN NOT WORK BY ITSELF!
The problem is there are lots of people who want to go to the better schools, but there are not enough books, desks, rooms, buildings, teachers etc...
We have to fundamentally change the entire way we educate our students. Free market in and of itself can not work fast enough.
@makaisenki let me get this straight- you think that the system that we have now relies on the free market? bullshit. that entire thing was about nothing but the fact that the system is wrong, and the system currently relies on state schools that are funded by taxes and infested with unionised employees and reason-free alturistic morality. someone gives fools like you a little bit of sad music and footage you think your eyes have been opened.
@makaisenki charter schools are basically a free market situation for schools, dummy. bad schools fall out of the system and are shut down, good schools stay. they work because the schools are held accountable and don't bend over for the unions. they are not regulated to death.
@samm1809 Bad schools do not get shut down. They can teach what ever they want. If they want to teach creationism, and that evolution is a lie, they can. Rich people who do not have a grasp of reality will send their kids to those schools, because free market jack asses don't want their kids to go to secular schools where they might learn something that may invalidate their religious doctrine. We need standards.
It's not as simple as your myopia allows you to believe.
@makaisenki look, seriously i just can't believe that you can't see that the charter school system is basically the only form of competitive free market style schooling that the socialist monopolist unions will allow. how stupid can you be???
@samm1809 The poor can't afford charter schools, and education should be a right to the people, not a privilege to those that can afford it damn everyone else.
I've already stated blatantly that our monopolistic teachers unions are a problem. Why are you bringing them up again in the form of an attack if we already agree on that?
@makaisenki i just don't see what your solution is. if there were a voucher system, the problem of unions and state influence would be gone. also, you have no base of reasoning to say that education is a right. nobody has the right to other people's services. THEY have the right to sell other people their services. same with healthcare, same with everything else. charter schools are the government admitting that they can't run schooling.
@makaisenki government has no passion. it never will. PEOPLE have passion. the buildings you and i are in right now have no passion YOU and I have passion. schools should have the right to choose what text books they use, based on what they wish for their students to learn. one government textbook will simply lead to government control of thought. that's concerning. besides, if there is competition in the text book market, it will lead to the bad text books failing and the good ones succeeding.
@samm1809 Bullshit schools shouldn't have a right to choose Pandas and People over a legitimate educational biology book. It's not a 1 government text book either. It would be a non profit, text book, from a non profit company. Every textbook they would release would have to be peer reviewed by experts in those fields and resubmitted until they are as accurate as possible with the knowledge we currently have from those experts. They would all be digital to cut down expenses and updates are easy.
@makaisenki elitist? now HOW exactly am i an elitist? listen to this shit. the founding fathers would cry if they could see the shit that we're putting up with these days. i bet you've never read a book by mises or hayek or friedman or the wealth of nations in your life, yet you have the nerve to have a problem with free markets and capitalism. i bet you're a fan or michael moore and naomi klein too. RON PAUL 2012!
@samm1809 First off if you believe that Ron Paul would make a good president then you badmouthing me and calling me lazy and shit makes me feel perfectly happy. Anyone dumb enough to be a Ron Paul supporter is complimenting me with every single ad hominem attack.
First off I had chores which had to be done. Raking leaves up into summer from a yard with lots of trees, stopping escape attempts from the dog in the yard, cooking cleaning, earning money, and of course having a social life of sorts.
@makaisenki You however seem to just have 2-4 hours every day that you can just cram with books that make you believe that the free market is God, and that government ruins everything.
Fine then hopefully I'll be long out of the country by the time dumbasses like you completely destroy net neutrality, and your internet service provider blocks Youtube access without first paying them 5.00 a month. Then blocks your total internet access to 2GB a month unless you pay, or charges you overage fees.
@makaisenki i'm not calling you lazy- i'm saying that anyone who thinks that government can solve any problems that could otherwise be served in the free market is a sheep who wants to be a freeloader. i'm sorry, but you can be as arrogant as you want in opposition to ron paul, but i bet you support a socialist. anyone who can possibly comprehend the idea of all availiable information and needs to be used and served by a central authority is deluding themself with a vision of their own benefit.
@samm1809 The free market CAN solve some problems. Many problems it CAN solve, it won't because of profit incentives. Why don't all Cellphones have a single connection type? Because if you get a new phone they make extra money on selling you extra chargers. Why isn't cellphone coverage as good as it should be in so many areas? Because it's harder to profit when you have less users, and because there are multiple cellular radios (thanks to free markets) AT&T Users can't roam on Sprint towers etc.
@makaisenki well if government wasn't running around breathing down the neck and stepping on the shoes of anybody other than at&t with an infinite number of unconstitutional ralph nader-style business regulations under the basis of keeping order and safety, then someone would be able to sieze the opportunity for profit in keeping at&t competitive on things that matter to the consumer- like those you mentioned. i noticed you didn't use schooling as an example there.
@samm1809 We're talking about the free market. I was giving clear indications of free market failures.
Who is the government stepping on with regulations to companies that aren't AT&T/Cingular. Name some of the business regulations of the government that is preventing the free market from working.
AT&T will always be profitable, because any over seas business will use AT&T phones. The same cell technology in Europe is used for AT&T. Sprint, Verizon, CDMA aren't compatible with GSM networks.
@makaisenki and besides. this whole concept an industry, or corporate wing of government as you suggested, without profit is absurd. NOBODY would work to a reasonable capacity, and it would be imposible to tell who is actually bearing the load of work because the unions refuse to let people say that not all teachers are equally hard working and qualified and should be payed as such. that's one of the primary reasons for the horrific state of public schools.
@samm1809 It's not about toughening up. It's not wanting to waste 2-4 hours of every day just so I could get a marginally better education. I'd be better of being an autodidact with those 4 hours which is a lot of what I did. It's not about toughening. It's time that could have been better used.
I understand economics. Free market doesn't fix everything. Anyone who pays attention to the text book market knows that the free market isn't good for the text books. I shouldn't have to explain why.
@makaisenki yeah. text books. you mean the textbooks that are absolutely riddled with keynesian economics? i didn't even KNOW about the austrian school of economics until i heard of milton friedman, one of the few free market perspectives that get a paragraph in the text books suggesting sense. all problems in the market have been caused by government intervention legislating in favour of one economic group or another.
@makaisenki 'it's easier for them to have choices'..........that is the most statist thought process i've ever heard. you sound like one of those socialists that defected from nazi germany that friedrich hayek mentioned in the road to serfdom that sounded like fascists anyway. they have trialed the voucher system in the US and the UK. both times it worked. it's just the unions that stand in the way- arrogant, self-serving monopolists that act under the guise of serving the best interests of all.
@samm1809 Ok so in my old home town of 5k people, where it wasn't a good school, the only school within 30 minutes was fucking shit, and my dad couldn't leave his job, so the only choice is to have either me or my dad have a 1-2 hour fucking commute every single day... Is that what you want people to do? Use vouchers for hour long commutes?
What about in New York where they don't have room to build new buildings, and better schools don't have capacity to open up the flood gates? What do they do
@makaisenki yeah well i've got news for you buddy- 200 years ago the best available evidence was the bible. no university would take someone who went to a school that teaches that the world is flat in a free education market where there is a variety of education methods and universities would take students based on their demonstrable knowledge, because it's not just 'public' or 'private' and there is a variety of education out there.
@samm1809 IT'S NOT 200 YEARS AGO THOUGH! Our methods of testing conclusions are much stronger. There's no freaking check box on a college application that asks whether or not the world is flat!
When it comes to opinion based stuff, such as Literature, fine have a variety of educational styles. When it comes to verifiable, evidence based, demonstrable, facts, like whether or not Reagan raised or lowered taxes, whether or not this is a Christian nation, there is ONLY 1 real reality. Teach it!
@makaisenki that's NOT the point. if schools really are teaching stuff that is concidered garbage like "the world is flat" then nobody will send their children there. the supposed socialist haven of sweden (which is a free market based system in disguise and would fail if not for america) has a voucher system of education. the issue with publicised schooling is that it is corrupt in nature. they teach socialist biased perspectives in economics because the teachers are unionised.
Government needs to be involved with education. It HAS to be. How else are we going to be able to keep anti-science things like teaching children how to guess on bubble tests, and how to come to the correct answer in a problem without learning how to solve it.
If we just let people decide where to send their students that will encourage southern schools to have Creationism.
If you believe that creationism is a good thing, then I understand why you support the voucher system. You're an idiot.
@makaisenki but if studies show that people that send their kids to schools promote intelligent design are worse educated and less successful, then people won't send their kids there. educational responsibilities should lie with the parent. and don't give me any garbage about how 'then kids with parents that don't care will get bad education' because that underestimates the role that the public school system plays in creating dumb lazy socialist sheep.
@samm1809 That's such bullshit. They'll just claim that it was some bias within the testing structure or that the federal school system is designing these tests in order to incorrectly label that school as a crappy school, yadda yadda yadda.
Especially when it comes to public schools, in locations where there are no alternatives that are viable without moving, especially in poor ghetto districts where they have neither the means, or the ability to help their children have better education.
@samm1809 If you have an issue with my argument, please be more specific about what you hold issue with. If it's the first paragraph I stand by it because those kinds of parents ignore evidence. They are the same kind of parents that support "Teach the controversy" crap and vote for politicians who do not believe in evolution.
On the second paragraph I stand by it, because I have experienced similar situations, and have heard from people, who have had it worse.
@makaisenki that doesn't matter. i don't know what your vision for the world is, but it sounds like you want a serf stste where everyone is teaching the same thing and everyone has the same oppinion, simply because someone believes it's a fact. evolution ofcourse is fact but do you hear what you just said? 'believe in evolution'. you want people to believe what you believe and nothing else, because you think you are right on everything. people should be able to decide what their kids are taught.
@samm1809 I don't want people to believe in the things I believe in because I believe in them. I want them to believe in the facts because they are the facts.
I'm tired of hearing 2 alternative realities to every single story. I don't want some schools to teach in their economics class that trickle down economics works, and here's why, and then you go to another class and the teacher is demonstrating why it can't work.
I want the EXPERTS to use REAL FACTS to educate what IS DEMONSTRABLE!
@makaisenki yeah, well i don't want to go to a school that riddles the students with socialist unionised keynesian garbage, but i do. and you know what? that's fine, i could move schools if i don't agree with what the teacher is teaching, but i won't because i know for a fact that it's worse at other schools because the state determines what is taught in economics. and it's WRONG. it's proven to be wrong and before we know it the economy will be in ruins and krugman will be exposed as a hack.
@samm1809 I wasn't making a statement about economic theory one way or the other. Just merely using an example of a subject that people argue both ways. You on the other hand then went on a rampage about your SPECIFIC belief. Well if your belief is based strongly on the facts, then it should be taught over the one that is revisionist correct?
Should we have some schools teaching that the Halocaust happened, and then other schools revising that history? I want to see education not revisionism.
@makaisenki but no one would send their kids to the school that teaches that the holacaust didn't happen because there are other schools teaching the truth. it's about having the option, which at the moment the only option is being taught by union cronies employed by the state teaching a program set by the state....or massive school fees.
@samm1809 You mean like the schools that stopped teaching about the Holocaust because it offended Muslims? Do you really think that poor people that live in Ghettos have the ability to put their kids in a different school? That they can afford to move?
There are people who pay premium fees to send their kids to schools in order to NOT learn about Evolution, in order to be indoctrinated with unscientific creationism.
That is no different from teaching children that the Holocaust didn't happen.
@makaisenki but listen to the arrogance of what you're saying. you're implying that the world is entirely based on absolutes and that nobody has the right to teach anything other than the opinion of the majority (you). schools that teach that the holocaust didn't happen or that evolution isn't a fact would produce students who are less educated and recieve a bad reputation and as a result go out of business. at the moment, i'm taught an absolute with no substancial evidence with no other option.
Wow, great work you guys!! That looks really awesome! You both are so talented and creative... (pssh, you didn't even need the media lab cameras after all!!) ;D
A fantastic display of student talent! This video resulted from a contest sponsored by the student fellows of The Center for Vision & Values at Grove City College. Larry Reed and the good people of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy and their Clarkson Colloquium inspired the idea for the "Freedom on Tape" contest. Econ 101: The Voucher System of Education is one of the winners.
Please keep the language clean in this debate, folks, or I'll just have to keep removing all your posts. Thanks.
hogarcito 1 year ago
@makaisenki and by the way, in effect, the teacher's unions are the only thing standing in the way of the voucher system, so if you do agree with me that we should get rid of the unions, then if they're gone the voucher system will soon enough be implemented.
samm1809 1 year ago
@makaisenki lol calm down dude. people like you and michael moore seem to be so devoted to being right that you use anger as a last resort. you obviously have very little knowledge of how a free market would work, most likely because you grew up with whiny hippies or idiots for parents. oh well, no need to bother explaining stuff to a layman anymore.
samm1809 1 year ago
@makaisenki i'm sorry, did you just imply that the inability to fire a bunch of lazy mooches and peadophiles is more important than text book quality? that's like blaming the fruit because the shop owner through it at you. half of my teachers don't even use the text books. the good ones, really. ofcourse, my economics teacher does.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 In Finland there are 3 teachers for each class of 26 students. Each of these teachers come from the top 10 percent of the class rather than in America where over 40 percent of the teachers come from the bottom of the glass.
Finland outscores just about every other country in education. We're ranked 17 in science education and rank 24 in math. They rank number 1 in both categories. 2 teachers teach, 1 helps those who need extra attention. That's more than a voucher will do guaranteed.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki you can't attribute the success of a system relative to other systems like that. finland has comprehensive school until the student is 15, then they go to either high school or 'trade' school. america doesn't have those sorts of options becuase an unbelievable amount of the people educated in the system are children of illegal aliens who don't pay taxes, who the same people who want socialism refuse to let be kicked out of the country even though they don't WANT to be legal.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809
You said: "they have trialed the voucher system in the US and the UK. both times it worked"
Then you said "you can't attribute the success of a system relative to other systems like that"
So long time earlier you stated that the voucher system works in UK and other places therefore use it here. Then you claim that illegals are why Finland style wouldnt' work here.
They spend half as much per student. as we do. If we could get costs down then your argument holds no water at all.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki no, but as i said, finland has a different grade structure to the US or australia. in my opinion school grading and age shouldn't be structured by government at all, but that's irrelevant. you have no reason to say that the supposed superiority of the finish system is based on the fact that it is socialised and not on the difference of the grade structure. the success of the voucher system however will always be based on the same reasoning- choice and competition.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 Look at the film "Waiting for Superman" at least watch the official trailer. It's about how much our schools are failing the kids. This is a perfect example of why your voucher system CAN NOT WORK BY ITSELF!
The problem is there are lots of people who want to go to the better schools, but there are not enough books, desks, rooms, buildings, teachers etc...
We have to fundamentally change the entire way we educate our students. Free market in and of itself can not work fast enough.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki alright. only if you watch john stossel's 'stupid in america'.
samm1809 1 year ago
@makaisenki let me get this straight- you think that the system that we have now relies on the free market? bullshit. that entire thing was about nothing but the fact that the system is wrong, and the system currently relies on state schools that are funded by taxes and infested with unionised employees and reason-free alturistic morality. someone gives fools like you a little bit of sad music and footage you think your eyes have been opened.
samm1809 1 year ago
@makaisenki charter schools are basically a free market situation for schools, dummy. bad schools fall out of the system and are shut down, good schools stay. they work because the schools are held accountable and don't bend over for the unions. they are not regulated to death.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 Bad schools do not get shut down. They can teach what ever they want. If they want to teach creationism, and that evolution is a lie, they can. Rich people who do not have a grasp of reality will send their kids to those schools, because free market jack asses don't want their kids to go to secular schools where they might learn something that may invalidate their religious doctrine. We need standards.
It's not as simple as your myopia allows you to believe.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki look, seriously i just can't believe that you can't see that the charter school system is basically the only form of competitive free market style schooling that the socialist monopolist unions will allow. how stupid can you be???
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 The poor can't afford charter schools, and education should be a right to the people, not a privilege to those that can afford it damn everyone else.
I've already stated blatantly that our monopolistic teachers unions are a problem. Why are you bringing them up again in the form of an attack if we already agree on that?
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki i just don't see what your solution is. if there were a voucher system, the problem of unions and state influence would be gone. also, you have no base of reasoning to say that education is a right. nobody has the right to other people's services. THEY have the right to sell other people their services. same with healthcare, same with everything else. charter schools are the government admitting that they can't run schooling.
samm1809 1 year ago
@makaisenki government has no passion. it never will. PEOPLE have passion. the buildings you and i are in right now have no passion YOU and I have passion. schools should have the right to choose what text books they use, based on what they wish for their students to learn. one government textbook will simply lead to government control of thought. that's concerning. besides, if there is competition in the text book market, it will lead to the bad text books failing and the good ones succeeding.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 Bullshit schools shouldn't have a right to choose Pandas and People over a legitimate educational biology book. It's not a 1 government text book either. It would be a non profit, text book, from a non profit company. Every textbook they would release would have to be peer reviewed by experts in those fields and resubmitted until they are as accurate as possible with the knowledge we currently have from those experts. They would all be digital to cut down expenses and updates are easy.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki elitist? now HOW exactly am i an elitist? listen to this shit. the founding fathers would cry if they could see the shit that we're putting up with these days. i bet you've never read a book by mises or hayek or friedman or the wealth of nations in your life, yet you have the nerve to have a problem with free markets and capitalism. i bet you're a fan or michael moore and naomi klein too. RON PAUL 2012!
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 First off if you believe that Ron Paul would make a good president then you badmouthing me and calling me lazy and shit makes me feel perfectly happy. Anyone dumb enough to be a Ron Paul supporter is complimenting me with every single ad hominem attack.
First off I had chores which had to be done. Raking leaves up into summer from a yard with lots of trees, stopping escape attempts from the dog in the yard, cooking cleaning, earning money, and of course having a social life of sorts.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki You however seem to just have 2-4 hours every day that you can just cram with books that make you believe that the free market is God, and that government ruins everything.
Fine then hopefully I'll be long out of the country by the time dumbasses like you completely destroy net neutrality, and your internet service provider blocks Youtube access without first paying them 5.00 a month. Then blocks your total internet access to 2GB a month unless you pay, or charges you overage fees.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki i'm not calling you lazy- i'm saying that anyone who thinks that government can solve any problems that could otherwise be served in the free market is a sheep who wants to be a freeloader. i'm sorry, but you can be as arrogant as you want in opposition to ron paul, but i bet you support a socialist. anyone who can possibly comprehend the idea of all availiable information and needs to be used and served by a central authority is deluding themself with a vision of their own benefit.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 The free market CAN solve some problems. Many problems it CAN solve, it won't because of profit incentives. Why don't all Cellphones have a single connection type? Because if you get a new phone they make extra money on selling you extra chargers. Why isn't cellphone coverage as good as it should be in so many areas? Because it's harder to profit when you have less users, and because there are multiple cellular radios (thanks to free markets) AT&T Users can't roam on Sprint towers etc.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki well if government wasn't running around breathing down the neck and stepping on the shoes of anybody other than at&t with an infinite number of unconstitutional ralph nader-style business regulations under the basis of keeping order and safety, then someone would be able to sieze the opportunity for profit in keeping at&t competitive on things that matter to the consumer- like those you mentioned. i noticed you didn't use schooling as an example there.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 We're talking about the free market. I was giving clear indications of free market failures.
Who is the government stepping on with regulations to companies that aren't AT&T/Cingular. Name some of the business regulations of the government that is preventing the free market from working.
AT&T will always be profitable, because any over seas business will use AT&T phones. The same cell technology in Europe is used for AT&T. Sprint, Verizon, CDMA aren't compatible with GSM networks.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki and besides. this whole concept an industry, or corporate wing of government as you suggested, without profit is absurd. NOBODY would work to a reasonable capacity, and it would be imposible to tell who is actually bearing the load of work because the unions refuse to let people say that not all teachers are equally hard working and qualified and should be payed as such. that's one of the primary reasons for the horrific state of public schools.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 It's not about toughening up. It's not wanting to waste 2-4 hours of every day just so I could get a marginally better education. I'd be better of being an autodidact with those 4 hours which is a lot of what I did. It's not about toughening. It's time that could have been better used.
I understand economics. Free market doesn't fix everything. Anyone who pays attention to the text book market knows that the free market isn't good for the text books. I shouldn't have to explain why.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki yeah. text books. you mean the textbooks that are absolutely riddled with keynesian economics? i didn't even KNOW about the austrian school of economics until i heard of milton friedman, one of the few free market perspectives that get a paragraph in the text books suggesting sense. all problems in the market have been caused by government intervention legislating in favour of one economic group or another.
samm1809 1 year ago
@makaisenki 'it's easier for them to have choices'..........that is the most statist thought process i've ever heard. you sound like one of those socialists that defected from nazi germany that friedrich hayek mentioned in the road to serfdom that sounded like fascists anyway. they have trialed the voucher system in the US and the UK. both times it worked. it's just the unions that stand in the way- arrogant, self-serving monopolists that act under the guise of serving the best interests of all.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 Ok so in my old home town of 5k people, where it wasn't a good school, the only school within 30 minutes was fucking shit, and my dad couldn't leave his job, so the only choice is to have either me or my dad have a 1-2 hour fucking commute every single day... Is that what you want people to do? Use vouchers for hour long commutes?
What about in New York where they don't have room to build new buildings, and better schools don't have capacity to open up the flood gates? What do they do
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki yeah well i've got news for you buddy- 200 years ago the best available evidence was the bible. no university would take someone who went to a school that teaches that the world is flat in a free education market where there is a variety of education methods and universities would take students based on their demonstrable knowledge, because it's not just 'public' or 'private' and there is a variety of education out there.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 IT'S NOT 200 YEARS AGO THOUGH! Our methods of testing conclusions are much stronger. There's no freaking check box on a college application that asks whether or not the world is flat!
When it comes to opinion based stuff, such as Literature, fine have a variety of educational styles. When it comes to verifiable, evidence based, demonstrable, facts, like whether or not Reagan raised or lowered taxes, whether or not this is a Christian nation, there is ONLY 1 real reality. Teach it!
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki that's NOT the point. if schools really are teaching stuff that is concidered garbage like "the world is flat" then nobody will send their children there. the supposed socialist haven of sweden (which is a free market based system in disguise and would fail if not for america) has a voucher system of education. the issue with publicised schooling is that it is corrupt in nature. they teach socialist biased perspectives in economics because the teachers are unionised.
samm1809 1 year ago
Government needs to be involved with education. It HAS to be. How else are we going to be able to keep anti-science things like teaching children how to guess on bubble tests, and how to come to the correct answer in a problem without learning how to solve it.
If we just let people decide where to send their students that will encourage southern schools to have Creationism.
If you believe that creationism is a good thing, then I understand why you support the voucher system. You're an idiot.
makaisenki 2 years ago
@makaisenki but if studies show that people that send their kids to schools promote intelligent design are worse educated and less successful, then people won't send their kids there. educational responsibilities should lie with the parent. and don't give me any garbage about how 'then kids with parents that don't care will get bad education' because that underestimates the role that the public school system plays in creating dumb lazy socialist sheep.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 That's such bullshit. They'll just claim that it was some bias within the testing structure or that the federal school system is designing these tests in order to incorrectly label that school as a crappy school, yadda yadda yadda.
Especially when it comes to public schools, in locations where there are no alternatives that are viable without moving, especially in poor ghetto districts where they have neither the means, or the ability to help their children have better education.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki but that's assuming that there is a centralised socialist sheep-manufacturing test structure.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 If you have an issue with my argument, please be more specific about what you hold issue with. If it's the first paragraph I stand by it because those kinds of parents ignore evidence. They are the same kind of parents that support "Teach the controversy" crap and vote for politicians who do not believe in evolution.
On the second paragraph I stand by it, because I have experienced similar situations, and have heard from people, who have had it worse.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki that doesn't matter. i don't know what your vision for the world is, but it sounds like you want a serf stste where everyone is teaching the same thing and everyone has the same oppinion, simply because someone believes it's a fact. evolution ofcourse is fact but do you hear what you just said? 'believe in evolution'. you want people to believe what you believe and nothing else, because you think you are right on everything. people should be able to decide what their kids are taught.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 I don't want people to believe in the things I believe in because I believe in them. I want them to believe in the facts because they are the facts.
I'm tired of hearing 2 alternative realities to every single story. I don't want some schools to teach in their economics class that trickle down economics works, and here's why, and then you go to another class and the teacher is demonstrating why it can't work.
I want the EXPERTS to use REAL FACTS to educate what IS DEMONSTRABLE!
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki yeah, well i don't want to go to a school that riddles the students with socialist unionised keynesian garbage, but i do. and you know what? that's fine, i could move schools if i don't agree with what the teacher is teaching, but i won't because i know for a fact that it's worse at other schools because the state determines what is taught in economics. and it's WRONG. it's proven to be wrong and before we know it the economy will be in ruins and krugman will be exposed as a hack.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 I wasn't making a statement about economic theory one way or the other. Just merely using an example of a subject that people argue both ways. You on the other hand then went on a rampage about your SPECIFIC belief. Well if your belief is based strongly on the facts, then it should be taught over the one that is revisionist correct?
Should we have some schools teaching that the Halocaust happened, and then other schools revising that history? I want to see education not revisionism.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki but no one would send their kids to the school that teaches that the holacaust didn't happen because there are other schools teaching the truth. it's about having the option, which at the moment the only option is being taught by union cronies employed by the state teaching a program set by the state....or massive school fees.
samm1809 1 year ago
@samm1809 You mean like the schools that stopped teaching about the Holocaust because it offended Muslims? Do you really think that poor people that live in Ghettos have the ability to put their kids in a different school? That they can afford to move?
There are people who pay premium fees to send their kids to schools in order to NOT learn about Evolution, in order to be indoctrinated with unscientific creationism.
That is no different from teaching children that the Holocaust didn't happen.
makaisenki 1 year ago
@makaisenki but listen to the arrogance of what you're saying. you're implying that the world is entirely based on absolutes and that nobody has the right to teach anything other than the opinion of the majority (you). schools that teach that the holocaust didn't happen or that evolution isn't a fact would produce students who are less educated and recieve a bad reputation and as a result go out of business. at the moment, i'm taught an absolute with no substancial evidence with no other option.
samm1809 1 year ago
Wow, great work you guys!! That looks really awesome! You both are so talented and creative... (pssh, you didn't even need the media lab cameras after all!!) ;D
greenbirdie27 3 years ago
A fantastic display of student talent! This video resulted from a contest sponsored by the student fellows of The Center for Vision & Values at Grove City College. Larry Reed and the good people of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy and their Clarkson Colloquium inspired the idea for the "Freedom on Tape" contest. Econ 101: The Voucher System of Education is one of the winners.
lswishing 3 years ago
Impressive; if it was a bit shorter it would look like a real add. I especially like the road to tree transformation.
ElephantEyeStudios 3 years ago