The sex industry is bad enough. But look at the popular music industry, the fashion industry, teen magazines, lads magazines, etc. All of society - we have the destruction of intimacy, honor, dignity, and love - and it is replaced by the promotion of hedonism, materialism and objectification of women and men. It's time that we kept our children away from the evils of popular culture and taught them how to respect themselves and have dignity. This will also help their respect towards others.
@PersianPaladin - Fair enough. It does seem like pole-dancing music-videos are the standard wallpaper now, even in "family pubs". This is one reason why I'm glad I never had children. Invest all that love and energy into your kids, then let them go (and you have got to let them go, of course) into this cesspit, where the jackels are waiting to snap them up? No thanks. (Having said that, most people do seem to somehow survive.)
Straw man depiction of sex + position... The argument for decriminalization is not dependent upon "exceptions to the rule". It has nothing to do with the level of abuses in the industry. It's about freedom of choice for those who choose sex work and freedom to obtain help for those who want to leave. It's about freedom to organize & unionize, which is impossible when the sex industry is illegal. So driving the market underground is supposed to address the abuses you mention?
@prschuster - Looks like you haven't listened to any of my other videos... where all these points are answered. Still, none so deaf as those who won't listen.
@mickGPN And why should I have to listen to your other videos when You have enumerated all these straw man dedictions of the sex+ position perfectly well in this one?
@TheGesamtkunstwerk - Well, in MY utopia, you could do as much dancing as you wanted - it's just that you'd have to find some other way of paying the bills :-) And, without the corrosive influence which the sex-industry has on our culture, you'd be much more likely to meet people who were also authentic and genuinely artistic... instead of performing for who knows what kind of weirdos. Guys who only have to scrape together the price of admission, if they want to come in and gawp at you.
@TheGesamtkunstwerk - Actually, I like the sound of yr utopia (and I may even have been there once or twice) but I think you need to recognise that what goes on in your little corner of bohemia is not in any way indicative of how the sex-industry is developing So, how about telling people you'd like to create an anarcho-hermaphrodite utopia, rather than claiming the what you are saying in any way describes the reality of the sex-industry as it is experienced by the vast majority of sex-providers
@apumpkinful Or maybe, just maybe, two things that aren't in any way causal are being linked by political rhetoric to further another agenda. Help women who are actually being abused, leave consenting sex workers alone...how fucking hard is that to comprehend? It's *not* the same thing.
@mickGPN You are the one who subscribes to a false dichotomy where individualism and collectivism are butting heads. It isn't that black and white, and they aren't mutually exclusive opposites. What a simpleton.
@BobChaos23 - I've never said that they are 'butting heads". I am just asking the paid-sex positives to acknowledge that both perspectives have some validity. So far they've always emphasised our individual realities, to the exclusion of our social realities.
@mickGPN Sure, and any time one of us brings it up on the other direction Diana or someone else just talks about how the only thing that matters is collectivism. Yawn.
@BobChaos23 - I'm not responsible for what Diana says, or more importantly, what you claim she says. So, do you want to have another go at responding to my comment...?
@apumpkinful - Yeah, I don't know why anyone still listens to them. Or, wait on, maybe it's because they help men who want to use women (or men) as objects feel okay about themselves. // Then, of course, they also feed into the simplistic ideas about individualistic freedom which have been spread about with the financial backing of people like Rupert Murdoch, or the Koch Brothers. // In short, they are effectively acting as apologists for the sex-industry... and that's a pretty easy gig.
So any proof that your overwhelming negative portrayal of johns represents any kind of "overwhelming majority"? Or is this like all the other "overwhelming majority" arguments I hear from the antis, just built out of thin air.
And considering the very real unsavory political alliances of your beloved anti-porn feminists (not to mention the fundamentalism of their branch of feminism), I think you hardly have any business attacking others as "fundamentalists".
@iamcuriousblue - This is just another attempt at guilt-by-association. Isn't it time you changed the record? Or do you need Divinity's permission to do that? // I gave reasons why your attitude is like that of a Fundi. All you're doing is saying, "No, you are! You are!" // And do you really want to base your position on a claim that the sex-industry is all about cuddles? You need statistics to disprove that idea?? Oh well, it's your funeral.
@mickGPN 1) Actually, I think the argument coming from the radical feminists is a massive game of "No, you are". I think there have been some very real reasons to consider these people to be the fundamentalist branch of the feminist movement given their extremism and devotion to ideology above all. The response by you people is to simply pint the finger back without backing it up with an argument.
@mickGPN 2) And as for the last part, it's nothing more than a cheap "everybody knows that" argument. Well, sorry bub, but the demonization of the sex industry and men who buy sex is based on what are at best half-truths. And you can argue "common sense" until you're red in the face, but it doesn't make your argument any more factual.
@iamcuriousblue - Guess what? We may have found some common ground. I'm aware that every movement has it's extremists, so of course that includes feminism So, any kind of authoritarian attitude should be avoided, and criticised. Fair enough. What I object to is when you use the imperfections of the feminist movement as an excuse to apologise for the sex-ind. As for stats on the % of sensitive Johns...See my vid - "Statistics, So What? Or just google "Porn", see what you find... and then get real
@mickGPN Well, considering extremist feminism from Andrea Dworkin onward is *the basis* for the criticisms of the sex industry, "sexual objectification", and the rest, I think the fundamental flaws in that movement do have bearing on the larger critique. I hardly think this un-nuanced, "the sex industry is a fundamentally evil force that must be smashed" comes from anything resembling moderate, non-authoritarian feminism.
@iamcuriousblue - Well, I invite anyone reading this to google the word "Porn", click on a few links for five minutes... then let us know if they think my opinion is a ridiculous parody of reality. // The sex-industry is evil - root and branch - but I accept that we need to have a nuanced strategy for how to deal with it, so as to avoid becoming authoritarian. (Eg - Only string up 10% of the pimps. And no disemboweling... unless they're really asking for it :-)
@mickGPN "Well, I invite anyone reading this to google the word "Porn", click on a few links for five minutes."
Well, I've seen quite a bit of porn, and it's a genre with a huge variety to it. Looked at as a whole, the idea of "evil root and branch" is hardly supported from looking at porn, unless what you define as "evil" is anything outside of a very narrow, constrained, and basically conservative view of "intimate" sexuality.
@iamcuriousblue - Obviously I'm not upset by people having non-vanilla sex. (In fact, I'd be upset if that was all they were having :-) However, there is tons of really sick degredation-based porn on the web these days. If you're not seeing that, you might be on a different web from me. And I've only done research on no-pay sites. // Then, of course, I could cite respected academic Gail Dines to provide some stats about how it keeps getting worse. (Yeah, I knew that name would impress you :-)
@mickGPN Gail Dines is demonstrably full of shit. She cherry-picks the most hot-button examples of violent pornography and then claims this is what all porn is. When, in fact, porn is far far more diverse than this and cannot be reduced as a whole to these few examples. And she argues that there is an inexorable slippery slope from viewing any pornography to viewing child pornography. Basically, the "marijuana leads to heroin" model applied to porn.
@BobChaos23 Google "Abolish Restaurants" and you'll see an anti-capitalist critique that sounds *a lot* like the stuff the lefty side of the "abolitionist" movement says about the sex industry, and perhaps valid as far as it goes. So if you're going to be consistent with the critique, you're going to have to end up banning a lot of things. Unless it's the *sex* one has a problem with, in which case you're back to old-school puritanism that really isn't anything progressive at all.
@iamcuriousblue Of course that's what it is....kinda obvious since they ONLY focus on anything to do with sex, and nothing else...when was the last time any of these people talked about abuse of factory workers? Or soldiers? I only bring up restaurants to show how ludicrous banning sex work is, and how for them it really is all about the sex, not the human rights issues.
And they know I am right, thats why these "anti" fucks ignore the point.
Mind you, I've only had real conversations with male escorts who aren't all that involved with the movement, but in both cases they said that most of thier clients were just lonely people. Obviously I don't know what the "norm" is for women though.
@Coquipirate - Fair enough, there will be an element of delusion in what Johns think they can get from paid sex - but it's not Cuddle & Chat that drives where the sex industry is going next :-)
@Coquipirate - Well, you have to bear in mind that what I'm trying to get is political change on a society-wide level. So, I don't need to use my psychic powers on individual Johns. All I have to show is that the sex-industry is generally horrific - for which, try the google-test, from above // Also, as well as that kind of evidence, I can map out a convincing explanation for why the sex-ind encourages negative attitudes - if you watch some of my other vids - eg Sex Industry = Human Commodities
The sex industry is bad enough. But look at the popular music industry, the fashion industry, teen magazines, lads magazines, etc. All of society - we have the destruction of intimacy, honor, dignity, and love - and it is replaced by the promotion of hedonism, materialism and objectification of women and men. It's time that we kept our children away from the evils of popular culture and taught them how to respect themselves and have dignity. This will also help their respect towards others.
PersianPaladin 3 weeks ago
@PersianPaladin - Fair enough. It does seem like pole-dancing music-videos are the standard wallpaper now, even in "family pubs". This is one reason why I'm glad I never had children. Invest all that love and energy into your kids, then let them go (and you have got to let them go, of course) into this cesspit, where the jackels are waiting to snap them up? No thanks. (Having said that, most people do seem to somehow survive.)
mickGPN 2 weeks ago
Straw man depiction of sex + position... The argument for decriminalization is not dependent upon "exceptions to the rule". It has nothing to do with the level of abuses in the industry. It's about freedom of choice for those who choose sex work and freedom to obtain help for those who want to leave. It's about freedom to organize & unionize, which is impossible when the sex industry is illegal. So driving the market underground is supposed to address the abuses you mention?
prschuster 1 month ago in playlist Those Pesky Paid-Sex Positives...
@prschuster - Looks like you haven't listened to any of my other videos... where all these points are answered. Still, none so deaf as those who won't listen.
mickGPN 3 weeks ago
@mickGPN And why should I have to listen to your other videos when You have enumerated all these straw man dedictions of the sex+ position perfectly well in this one?
prschuster 3 weeks ago
@TheGesamtkunstwerk - Well, in MY utopia, you could do as much dancing as you wanted - it's just that you'd have to find some other way of paying the bills :-) And, without the corrosive influence which the sex-industry has on our culture, you'd be much more likely to meet people who were also authentic and genuinely artistic... instead of performing for who knows what kind of weirdos. Guys who only have to scrape together the price of admission, if they want to come in and gawp at you.
mickGPN 8 months ago
@TheGesamtkunstwerk - Actually, I like the sound of yr utopia (and I may even have been there once or twice) but I think you need to recognise that what goes on in your little corner of bohemia is not in any way indicative of how the sex-industry is developing So, how about telling people you'd like to create an anarcho-hermaphrodite utopia, rather than claiming the what you are saying in any way describes the reality of the sex-industry as it is experienced by the vast majority of sex-providers
mickGPN 8 months ago
@apumpkinful Or maybe, just maybe, two things that aren't in any way causal are being linked by political rhetoric to further another agenda. Help women who are actually being abused, leave consenting sex workers alone...how fucking hard is that to comprehend? It's *not* the same thing.
BobChaos23 9 months ago
@BobChaos23 - The concept of "consenting sex-workers" is an individualistic construct. We live in a society. See PPSP #2
mickGPN 9 months ago
@mickGPN You are the one who subscribes to a false dichotomy where individualism and collectivism are butting heads. It isn't that black and white, and they aren't mutually exclusive opposites. What a simpleton.
BobChaos23 9 months ago
@BobChaos23 - I've never said that they are 'butting heads". I am just asking the paid-sex positives to acknowledge that both perspectives have some validity. So far they've always emphasised our individual realities, to the exclusion of our social realities.
mickGPN 9 months ago
@mickGPN Sure, and any time one of us brings it up on the other direction Diana or someone else just talks about how the only thing that matters is collectivism. Yawn.
BobChaos23 9 months ago
@BobChaos23 - I'm not responsible for what Diana says, or more importantly, what you claim she says. So, do you want to have another go at responding to my comment...?
mickGPN 9 months ago
@mickGPN Just as soon as you answer my question about restaurants, and how it is analogous to the sex work discussion. ^_^
BobChaos23 9 months ago
@BobChaos23 - Easy-peasy - Just check out my video "Sex Industry & Sadism"
mickGPN 9 months ago
@apumpkinful - Yeah, I don't know why anyone still listens to them. Or, wait on, maybe it's because they help men who want to use women (or men) as objects feel okay about themselves. // Then, of course, they also feed into the simplistic ideas about individualistic freedom which have been spread about with the financial backing of people like Rupert Murdoch, or the Koch Brothers. // In short, they are effectively acting as apologists for the sex-industry... and that's a pretty easy gig.
mickGPN 9 months ago
So any proof that your overwhelming negative portrayal of johns represents any kind of "overwhelming majority"? Or is this like all the other "overwhelming majority" arguments I hear from the antis, just built out of thin air.
And considering the very real unsavory political alliances of your beloved anti-porn feminists (not to mention the fundamentalism of their branch of feminism), I think you hardly have any business attacking others as "fundamentalists".
iamcuriousblue 9 months ago
@iamcuriousblue - This is just another attempt at guilt-by-association. Isn't it time you changed the record? Or do you need Divinity's permission to do that? // I gave reasons why your attitude is like that of a Fundi. All you're doing is saying, "No, you are! You are!" // And do you really want to base your position on a claim that the sex-industry is all about cuddles? You need statistics to disprove that idea?? Oh well, it's your funeral.
mickGPN 9 months ago
@mickGPN 1) Actually, I think the argument coming from the radical feminists is a massive game of "No, you are". I think there have been some very real reasons to consider these people to be the fundamentalist branch of the feminist movement given their extremism and devotion to ideology above all. The response by you people is to simply pint the finger back without backing it up with an argument.
(cont)
iamcuriousblue 9 months ago
@mickGPN 2) And as for the last part, it's nothing more than a cheap "everybody knows that" argument. Well, sorry bub, but the demonization of the sex industry and men who buy sex is based on what are at best half-truths. And you can argue "common sense" until you're red in the face, but it doesn't make your argument any more factual.
iamcuriousblue 9 months ago
@iamcuriousblue - Guess what? We may have found some common ground. I'm aware that every movement has it's extremists, so of course that includes feminism So, any kind of authoritarian attitude should be avoided, and criticised. Fair enough. What I object to is when you use the imperfections of the feminist movement as an excuse to apologise for the sex-ind. As for stats on the % of sensitive Johns...See my vid - "Statistics, So What? Or just google "Porn", see what you find... and then get real
mickGPN 9 months ago
@mickGPN Well, considering extremist feminism from Andrea Dworkin onward is *the basis* for the criticisms of the sex industry, "sexual objectification", and the rest, I think the fundamental flaws in that movement do have bearing on the larger critique. I hardly think this un-nuanced, "the sex industry is a fundamentally evil force that must be smashed" comes from anything resembling moderate, non-authoritarian feminism.
iamcuriousblue 9 months ago
@iamcuriousblue - Well, I invite anyone reading this to google the word "Porn", click on a few links for five minutes... then let us know if they think my opinion is a ridiculous parody of reality. // The sex-industry is evil - root and branch - but I accept that we need to have a nuanced strategy for how to deal with it, so as to avoid becoming authoritarian. (Eg - Only string up 10% of the pimps. And no disemboweling... unless they're really asking for it :-)
mickGPN 9 months ago
@mickGPN "Well, I invite anyone reading this to google the word "Porn", click on a few links for five minutes."
Well, I've seen quite a bit of porn, and it's a genre with a huge variety to it. Looked at as a whole, the idea of "evil root and branch" is hardly supported from looking at porn, unless what you define as "evil" is anything outside of a very narrow, constrained, and basically conservative view of "intimate" sexuality.
iamcuriousblue 9 months ago
@iamcuriousblue - Obviously I'm not upset by people having non-vanilla sex. (In fact, I'd be upset if that was all they were having :-) However, there is tons of really sick degredation-based porn on the web these days. If you're not seeing that, you might be on a different web from me. And I've only done research on no-pay sites. // Then, of course, I could cite respected academic Gail Dines to provide some stats about how it keeps getting worse. (Yeah, I knew that name would impress you :-)
mickGPN 9 months ago
@mickGPN Gail Dines is demonstrably full of shit. She cherry-picks the most hot-button examples of violent pornography and then claims this is what all porn is. When, in fact, porn is far far more diverse than this and cannot be reduced as a whole to these few examples. And she argues that there is an inexorable slippery slope from viewing any pornography to viewing child pornography. Basically, the "marijuana leads to heroin" model applied to porn.
iamcuriousblue 9 months ago
@iamcuriousblue That's silly....clearly, if one muslim is a terrorist, they must all be. DERP.
Too bad he never actually answered my question about restaurants being banned. *sad face*
BobChaos23 9 months ago
@BobChaos23 Google "Abolish Restaurants" and you'll see an anti-capitalist critique that sounds *a lot* like the stuff the lefty side of the "abolitionist" movement says about the sex industry, and perhaps valid as far as it goes. So if you're going to be consistent with the critique, you're going to have to end up banning a lot of things. Unless it's the *sex* one has a problem with, in which case you're back to old-school puritanism that really isn't anything progressive at all.
iamcuriousblue 9 months ago
@iamcuriousblue Of course that's what it is....kinda obvious since they ONLY focus on anything to do with sex, and nothing else...when was the last time any of these people talked about abuse of factory workers? Or soldiers? I only bring up restaurants to show how ludicrous banning sex work is, and how for them it really is all about the sex, not the human rights issues.
And they know I am right, thats why these "anti" fucks ignore the point.
BobChaos23 9 months ago
Mind you, I've only had real conversations with male escorts who aren't all that involved with the movement, but in both cases they said that most of thier clients were just lonely people. Obviously I don't know what the "norm" is for women though.
Coquipirate 9 months ago
@Coquipirate - Fair enough, there will be an element of delusion in what Johns think they can get from paid sex - but it's not Cuddle & Chat that drives where the sex industry is going next :-)
mickGPN 9 months ago
@mickGPN Wait, how would we know what the clients motives or future motives are?
Coquipirate 9 months ago
@Coquipirate - Well, you have to bear in mind that what I'm trying to get is political change on a society-wide level. So, I don't need to use my psychic powers on individual Johns. All I have to show is that the sex-industry is generally horrific - for which, try the google-test, from above // Also, as well as that kind of evidence, I can map out a convincing explanation for why the sex-ind encourages negative attitudes - if you watch some of my other vids - eg Sex Industry = Human Commodities
mickGPN 9 months ago