You people realize that a 'complete open borders policy' + 'getting of all welfare' = 'lowering the average US living conditions to something close to what you have in Africa/South-America'. And it will take quite a while before the economy starts taking advantage of the new freedom, and that's assuming everything goes according to plan.
It -might- be good for the world, but it would be devastating for the US on the short/medium run
Are you actually prepared to make your family go through that ?
We should get rid of free trade until we can afford it. Really we can't afford anything, if you argue we can, look at the fact that most of our budget is tied to entitlements and military operation. So left overs need to be distrubted carefully and we need to borrown money and such. I think that if we actually took care of our budget, insured that our budget was stable, we could then freely trade with countries because when you trade with other nations who are poorer than us, we have more 2 lose
Yeah, open border immigration with a welfare state is a bad idea. The value of all those immigrants labor would not in general come close to our minimum wage, which would force them under the welfare or other government "entitlement" programs. Milton Friedman's approach would be much more efficient and the only case in which we could justify complete open borders for law abiding immigrants.
I can't help but coment twice, "how do you compare workers, to apples?" well dobbs, it's pretty simple: labor and apples both are scarce resources that are subject to supply and demand curves. Before you comment on economics, at least pick up the basics.
okay, arguing about free trade is really about as necessary as arguments for a flat earth. From Smith to Friedman, from computer models to empirical evidence to an even cursory understanding of sociology all point in one direction: free trade is good.
Every day that I show up for work I support someone who does not. Tax dollars are extorted from me (Bi-Monthly Pay Check) in an effort to pay down the interest only on our national debt. On top of that, 15% more of my check is stolen to propogate the ever burdensome Social Security / Medicair Ponzi Scheme. Illegal Immigrants are not wealthy, they are a burden to an allready burdened system. They do not understand Patriotism or Freedom, look at Mexico and realize these people were its stuards
@bigcrabrob You're right about the burden of the ultimate transitional gains trap: social security. But illegal immigrants are NOT a burden to the "system". They are net taxpayers. That means illegal immigrants are the best deal for Uncle Sam when it comes to helping pay of the nation's debt! And contrary to some believes, they can't collect welfare: they're illegal! So remind me again, how does someone who risks his/her life for the chance to be a net taxpayer not understand freedom?
@thecountmontecristo I didnt say that some illegals dont pay taxes, I said look to the stuards of Mexican Government (Illegal Immagrants) to see their understanding of freedom and liberty, of standing against tyranical, corrupt government. The record there is not so good, if you argue with that clear and simple fact then I have no more time to honestly openly converse/debate with you. It is time to act like American's here in America, regardles of skin color or language.
@thecountmontecristo I dont have to time to go in to more detail at this minute, doing butt loads of paperwork, will get back to you as soon as I can with more. Thanks for responding by the way and being civil, I enjoy hearing others ideas and beliefs.
Wow Lou Dobbs is not politically correct, and he is not interested in what un-educated and mis-educated "Jackasses" hypothesize as "good for America". If you are not here legally, then your a criminal.... it's really that simple. Mexican's surrendered there gun's and right's to tyranicall autocracts who now kneel before drug lords and organized criminal's who terrorize there people. Illegal's are just the kind of freedom loving citizen's America need's right?
In 1848 the US Federal State stole ALL of present-day California, Nevada, Utah and MASSIVE amounts of present day Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Wyoming.
@qwertypoiu4321 lol ya land which spain stole from the indian nations in north america where are you going with this buddy aztecs did the same shit to a lesser extent before the spanish arrived just humans man expansion is a part of it
@Azicpok1 The Citizens of Mexico recieved independence in 1820 from Spain, and it became its own country. The US INVADED the Rio Grande and then proceeded to steal 50% of Mexico.
We can stop this illegal invaison . If citizens like you, who are concern about the influx of illegals, become vigilant , report illegal aliens in you communities. Not here to ruin lives, However I believe in controlling the influx of illegal aliens through our borders, into our cities & towns . Report Illegals,
Dobbs is a business man, after all we wouldn't want to tarnish the EB5 Program eh Dobbs. Make these illegals enter this country the RIGHT Way through the EB5 program Huh Lou?? What's that, you are an illegal from Mexico and want to enter the US but you can't? Oh wait what's this, you have $500,000 in disposable income? Step this way Mr Sanchez and you will obtain your green card ASAP! LMFAO LMFAO!
@Jitters10 your professor is an IDIOT!!!!! Maybe we should import 1,000,000 economists from around the world to the United States and give them jobs in our Universities and Financial institutions. So they will replace the current economic professors and economists and at Financial institutions. How about that ha?
@Jitters10 is that your best argument. what's your major? I hope in whatever field of study that you are in, we will import as many people from around the world to takover jobs in your field that way we will drive down your salary, more supply less demand. Your professor has a Pimpin Hoe degree (Phd). It seems like you like the pimp.
@85gevork Economics ;) And his "pimpin' hoe" degree is from George Mason University--in Washington, DC which has the most Nobel Prize laureates for economics in the Washington, DC area...hmmm
Ben Powell, PhD economics, later joked during a lecture on the economics of immigration that he was flattered to be called those names by one of the worst economic reporters around!
If you'd like to hear his lecture, which is about an hour long, on why he supports open borders along with the other social issues around it and how other countries fare with their border policy, email me and I'll send it to you via the foundation for economic education.
He's just unable to hold his own in open debate....he ruins it for true patriots by being racist about something that has NOTHING to do with race.....and in doing so, he completely discredits those who want to see our country in a better standing in the world. We're the only country with such open boarders, and I agree that this is a problem that needs a solution, but the way Dobbs argues just ruins it for both sides of the argument by being a bigot.
part of me likes some little part of Dobbs, but....there's just something about the guy, after hearing some really shady racist comments from him....i dunno, he seems to get it internally, but is unable to truly get the message of liberty and freedom by the constitution across without being a jackass himself....i was happy when he reported on the NAU plans but...he kind of ruined it because he discredited the research by being a total jack ass about it.
Life, Liberty & Property are the only things that need to be upheld in any society. I have the right to invite onto my property anyone I decide. That infringes no one's Liberty. The "Law" is irrelevent to Life, Liberty and Property.
Immigration just means "Movement".
If a persons movement does not infringe on anyones Life, Liberty or Property, they have a right to do that.
These people are jackassiess. They are talking out there ass, with this idea. I don't thank he has any education or was asleep in the back of the class. THese guys are living in some dream world but not in the real world. By the way Wall Street isn't the real main streets in america. The stock marlet news to be closed down and no more free market if this is the thinking coming out of that place. They are just saling greed all over again, thats all. That is what missed up our nation.
Immigration is a tax on the working poor and the middle class. We need an immigration moratorium.
We need to end anchor babies and chain migration.
We need to make e Verify mandatory and jail employers that hire illegals and use loopholes to bring in immigrants on fraudulent worker visas and pocket the profits and pass the social costs onto the community.
And most importantly, stop re electing the same traitors to our country trying to shove amnesty up our as**es again. Join Numbersusa now!
I do not think he came off as dumb at all. I agree with him. Most economist put making money ahead of ethics and morality. Open borders and job outsourcing are monstrous abuses of out free market economy. I support capitalism because it is that fairest and most successful economic system in history. However, it can be abused and certain rules need to be put in place to prevent those abuses (outsourcing, open borders, trade deficits, etc.).
it is always about slavery and how much you gotta pay em'. dobbs wants the truth about stuff. that is the marble that knocks around. lou and the rest of us are just being mislead and lied to.
Dobbs is trying to simplify economics and if one listens to him you can hear him even contradict himself. If it were as simple as he is making it there would be no need for the argument of immigration or no immigration. Lou is a good guy but he has lost it.
Free Markets are NEVER free. Nothing is free. In a "FREE" Market there are winners and Losers. FREE FOR ALL doesn't exist and never did. Protectionist Markets also never win, why? Protecting your failed businesses never leads to a productive society. You need a Balance..You need to be open, but secured to survive, what is very difficult in our society. Not one society/nation has survived on FREE MARKETS and Wide open Borders (Rome) nor Protectionism (USSR).
OPEN BORDERS=WILD WEST TERRITORY= destruction of a nation. Borders need to be open but secured. We need to know who gets in and out. If we don't do that but just keep it WIDE OPEN, we become a wild west territory.
This is what Naomi Klein calls "Chicago School Economics" and disaster capitalism. Read her book "The Shock Doctrine" and find out what will happen to the US by looking at what happened in Chile, Argentina and Indonesia just to name three.
Why don't they improve their own shitty country's instead of coming here and fucking up ours. We waste so much of our resources and time on these greenhorns half of them dont speak English and are nothing more then criminal scum that rubs off on our children. I have no problem with people coming over here as long as they speak English, work hard, and go through the process of coming here legally.
Its still amazing to me that people still choose to see what they want to see. I see so many people rant against FIAT currencies because of the destruction caused by too much money, but revel at the notion of flooding this country with unskilled labor. It is true, in this day and age, that money is more valuable than people. We have to be responsible with money, but not with people. This is one of the true hypocrasies of our culture.
Those people raving against fiat currencies are insane. They blame the Federal Reserve which has a 2 trillion dollar balance sheet for destabilizing a banking system with 480 trillion in derivatives. Plus their arguement is that fiat currency isn't a commodity as it isn't subject to scarcity (I don't get this, there is certainly a money supply, and demand for it). No one thinks that labor ISN'T a commodity. I don't understand how labor not being put to it's most productive use is a bad thing.
The issue with FIAT anything, and it is an issue, is that printing money and making it available in the first place (w/o boundaries) is that anyone can get it. W/O getting into specifics, which i dont have time for, the derivatives were partially allowed because of the so called fractional reserve banking. That is banks were allowed to create money from money. This is part of the whole reserve banking system, including the FED.
As usual Lou Dobbs is right on the mark. HE is a Harvard-educated economist and knows exactly what he's talking about. These other JACKASSES haven't got a clue. Unemployment in the USA is close to double digits. America's poor deserve the jobs more than any illegal, or any other foreigner coming here to find work. AMERICAN JOBS FOR AMERICANS ONLY!
Um the supply side ramifiactions for making wages higher, would actually lead to less emplyoment there champ. If less goods are being made due to high costs (such as wages) less people are employed.
We did just fine when there was a much smaller population of illegals. Yes the cost of living still rises, but people are still buying cigarettes (not a necessity) despite the very high price. Thus people will still buy the necessities of life (food, clothing etc), even if priced higher, meaning the same amount of goods will still be made, and the same amount of people will be employed: AMERICAN EMPLOYED. I would rather buy a tomato costing $3, knowing an American picked it.
Demand for cigarettes is most certainlly much more inelastic then for most goods. Plus that extra money spent on necessities has to come from SOMEWHERE. If we allowed people to immigrate, people could have necessitys plus some comforts, under your system they would just have necessities, which means less goods produced, translates into less wealth. There is no finite supply of wealth. The rest of your arguement centers on NATIONALISM which is based in emotion, not logic.
Because it's an extremely important issue and a huge threat to our sovereignty and identity as a country. And it isn't the only thing LD talks about. If you watched regularly, you'd see that.
Yeah..history will judge the leaders no doubt. That is..if the world hasnt been destroyed due to pollution or over population. In any event if were still alive and kicking, well have to simply create a new prosperity. Even if we arent "leading" the rest of the world.
Also, demand for unskilled labor is always there, and for many reasons. In some cases its there for production cost, and in other cases labor costs, but in both cases its there to benefit the employer and not the employee. The employee has no wage leverage here and cant choose to make more, unless given all the opportunities. Yes they come here to work, but thats just incidental. The employer still uses this fact, illegal or not, to use their cheap labor for his/her benefit.
So demand for labor is always there, and is high, yet workers cannot find other employment oppertunities? Wouldn't competing capitalist offer higher wages so they could secure more of those unskilled workers.
When the labor pool is very high, competing capitalists dont have to offer higher wages to secure more unskilled labor. They can offer whatever they want to those people knowing perfectly well they can always replace them if needed. These are the some of the same benefits that slave traders reaped 100 years ago.
The difference is that NO ONE forces the immigrant to come here. I don't understand why you think they are coming here, if they aren't better off here. If their native markets are SO awesome, why are people leaving them?
Nobody forces them to come here, that isnt the point. Anyone who needs to work to survive will come here. Thats why they leave their countries. Force isnt necessary. Its just convenient for you to say this because it serves your purpose. This isnt my argument. My argument has and always will be that they WONT be better off here making unlivable wages. Flooding this country w/ cheap labor is the way "free marketeers" want to us to compete w/ china.
I feel I should mention, that I don't have a problem with screening the immigrant to see that he or she isn't a threat to national security. What I want is labor to follow it's need. Literally, free trade of labor.
Comparative Advantage was show in the 1800s. You are the one that is saying the immigrant is an idiot, and going to a country for the hell of it, that demand will be less due to less wages (even though marginal consumption is higher at lower incomes, hence why keynesians always want stimulus to help the poor in recession). I was jabbing at him for blasting someone who has been trained in a field, when he hasn't. How is that NOT anti-intellectualism.
I never said the immigrants an idiot, thats just a lie. They dont come to our country for the hell of it, another lie, they come here to work. I never said demand will be less due to less wages, i said that their quality of life wont be much better at lower wages, as they wont be able to afford the necessities to survive. Marginal consumption? Of what. Low incomes yes, at 5-10 bucks an hr, not 1 -3 bucks an hr, theres a big diff. OK that jab was for someone else...my bad :)
"First, I dont admit theyd be better off in america, thats just a lie" Sounds like you think they are not serving their interest coming to america, even though they feel they are. Sounds like an insult on their intellgence to me. I meant earlier that lower incomes consume more of their paychecks. Must've been another poster.
"even though they feel they are". You assume this is true. YOU. They come to America for opportunity, which is what anyone will do. You seem to think they are only good for cheap labor. Whos insulting whos intelligence??
You also seem to not understand the notion of flooring prices. Prices can never go infinitely low, so that everyone, no matter what the wage, will be able to afford them. At some point the production wont be profitable, so it will cease, bringing supply down and price up. Hence in order for people to be able to afford things, they have to make enough money to buy it. An immigrant making 1.50 an hour will often always be priced out of the market. Thats fair?
Your are right the world isn't a damnit utopia, and that prices aren't going to go down for enough for everyone to afford them. What i think is that the immigrant is WAY better off coming to America and being employed. America's poverty > third world poverty. My apologies on not wording that notion clearly.
TY for speaking the truth. I reject the notion that people are better off living in poverty in America, even if you dont. Id rather they be able to enjoy better lives using their own markets in their own countries.
I have a question, how do you define "different" markets? Should States also not be allowed to flood each other with cheap labor. Certainly midwestern states would offer cheaper labor veruses moder urbanized states. Would that "flood" the labor market too?
Its been a while, so youll have to refresh my memory asto what I said over a month ago (if you're replying to me). To answer your quesiton, yes. States flooding other states with labor could be an issue, and it probably has. But, hopefully itll never come up due to things like minimum wage, and fair market practices. But ask yourself whether youd rather flood markets with workers in America? Or should we add 100 million MORE to the mix. The former is much more acceptible. If its to happen.
What I am trying to get you to understand is the economic pie is not fixed. In capitalism, as long as it is VOLUNTARY, both parties will win, or else they would not agree to it. Higher incomes means nothing if goods are expensive.
In capitalism, both parties will never win, unless both parties have counter leverage. If only one of the parties has leverage you can have no fairness in trade. Is it fair that someone immigrates to another country to get a better life, only to be worked as a slave for a slave wage, and live a short life because they cant access healthcare? That doesnt say much for "living a better life". Sure life is better compared to living w/ nothing, but its traded for a miserable life in America.
so you #1 admit they would be better off in america. #2 I'm sorry, people cannot be compensated more then what they produce, in response to your "wage slavery" arguement, it is just not feasible. Otherwise more people will do unskilled labor instead of bettering themselves, or using any skills they have. Also, I don't understand why the worker doesn't have any leverage. Is it not true that he or she can not seek employment elsewhere? Granted Illegals cannot do this.
First, I dont admit theyd be better off in america, thats just a lie. They have a better chance of livinng maybe a few more years, and 30-40 more for the lucky ones, but youd be hard pressed to say theyd h ave alife. People are always compensated more than they "produce", because "produce" is a relative term coined by business owners.
Granted IM NOT saying everyone should get an equal cut, otherwise, unskilled labor will be in high demand, rather that we at least regulate the borders to keep labor demand as low as we can. Workers only have leverage if they have choices. You're flat out assuming work will be abundant enough to go around. With a huge influx of population (too large), pay will be driven down, and jobs will become scarce as tech gets more efficient (robot workers). The notion of infinite jobs is a myth.
History is absolutely crystal clear. Techology becoming more efficient creates demand for labor. For instance, the cotton gin greatly boosted the size and amount of slaves a plantation needed, even though it took away a use of their labor (removal of cotton seeds). The fact that wages fall ALLOWS more jobs to be created, as business can afford to pay them because of it. Study the pricing system, and how it works. Prices reflect supply and demand, not the other way around.
History, at best, is clear, but smudged. The cottin gin is one example, but hardly the proof that technology increases demand for labor. Only in the case that human intervention is needed for that labor. This isnt true w/ robotics. Wages falling allows more jobs, yes, but everyone who make those wages are effected because the standard of living will go down for them. I never said prices dont reflect supply and demand dumbass. Learn to interpret.
Unskilled labor would be in high SUPPLY wioth an equal cut, not high demand. Demand would be low, as employeers could not afford to employ many workers, or could not make a profit doing so.
I never said anything about an equal cut. But yes you are right. Hence the need to control the amount of unskilled labor coming into the country. Add to that overpopulation issues due to mass immigration.
False. As long as both parties have leverage both parties will win. If you are starving for food, you don't agree to work, you do so to survive. If an immigrant comes to this country to work, then they have no leverage. The job they do is whatever is available to them. They cant start their own business, or buy guns to hunt, or clothes. Hence they are subject to the whims of others, regardless of the job and what it entails. Thats not equal leverage.
Having their employer threaten them is a result of the kind of leverage that can be used, not that its the only leverage. And yes you do have weak arguments, sry. My opinion, i know :).
I guess we view the world differently, I think there is plenty of demand for unskilled labor (outsourcing proves this). Since there is a demand for it, provided the immigrant can move to another employer, I do not see him being abused. The abuse suffered by immgrants in the 1920s IMO was due to the fact we allowed corporation monopoly power. I definitely support Anti-trusts and things like that. Proviveded that immigrant has somewhere to go, he has leverage, it does not matter his skills.
I agree. We both have a difference of opinion asto what will "work". There is plenty of demand, yes, but that doesnt mean he or she will live a better life. We also disagree on "better life". Leverage for my argument is leverage for a better wage, which means a better life. Something that someone can live off of so they can enjoy a decent life, like many of us do (w/ a roof over their heads). Switching from employer to employer isnt leverage his or her wage.
While I dont agree w/ Dobbs tact here, I tend to agree that a completely open border policy would be a bad one. The free marketeers are correct in the assumption that it would solve our border issues, but only (if they dont say it outright) at the expense of our population. Overpopulation would be the next debate if this were to take place. How would the free market solve this? Where would people go if the US were their only REAL chance at a life? Would they go anywhere or stay put?
People tend to be net producers, especailly without any welfare. Due to this fact, overpopulation would not be as big of an issue. Also all evidence points to as the standard of living rises, poeple have less kids. People are moving to America to have a higher standard of living, and this will naturally lead to less population growth. So overall, on a whole, world population growth may actually SLOW.
Evidence? What evidence suggests that people WILL have less children. Ideological nonsense. People will move to America to get higher standards of living if they are paid well. That will never happen in a truly free market. Especially if the labor is cheap. We'll get dumped millions of other countries populace, as job "growth" occurs because some job is better than no job to many people. Our population wont need to come from births, because well get it from mass immigration.
Ideological nonsense? Or perhaps the population trend of EVERY INDUSTRILIZED NATION EVER. As people spend more time in school, and need less cheap labor on farms, and birth control becomes more availible, they have less children. Higher living standard are due to goods becoming cheaper, NOT labor. Working does not improve your living conditions, but your payment does, because then you can buy goods. Thus anything that makes more goods, will raise living standards.
The trend? Evidence? More specifically give me evidence with double or even triple our population. You cant. Less cheap labor? Your confused. Mass immigration (unskilled) will BE cheap labor (try 1.50 and hour down to pennies on the dollar). Higher living standards (universal) are due to class not cheap goods. Payment has to be high enough for people to afford higher standards. Something that won't happen. Yes, raise livingn standards for you, but certainly not for them.
It won't raise living standard for immigration won't raise living standard of people coming into america, WHY WOULD THEY COME THEN. More plentiful goods (thus cheaper) doesn't raise the standard of living? So when Henry ford make cars cheaper, it didn't help the average american? It probably at first led to less employment, as his workers became more efficent. I am sorry I don't often cite basic facts on our population. It was common knowledge in my sociology class in HIGH SCHOOL.
They come to work, regardless of what the pay is. They come to get the opportunity to work. Living standards doesnt factor into it. More plentiful goods, raises the living standards of those who can afford it. Cheaper cars help the average american, not the wage slave. IT doesnt lead to less employment, as you have mischaracterized what im saying. You seem to believe that everyone will have higher standards of living, but fail to see the problems due to overpopulation (From mass immigr).
So you seriously think, the immigrant is NOT better off in america, with a low wage job, and instead would be better off in their orginal country? More plentiful goods lowers the price (veryyyyy basic economics), allowing more people to afford those goods. Overpopulation is only a problem if not everyone is producing, which simply won't happen provided everyone is working. Please keep in mind I want doctors and the like to immigrate to america as well, Unfortuately Nafta does not allow this.
You think the immigrant is better off making 1.50/hr with no way to afford HC, or even a house for his or her family, and die young, not living the same standard as the upper classes? Id rather their countries allow for them to be prosperous their than for us not to allow them prosperity here. Overpopulationn is a problem regardless of the number of people producing. Its a taxation on land, resources, and directly effects everyone.
Yes, I think the immigrant is better off making $1.50 then gathering food out of the wilderness. If people are producing more resources then they are consuming, then they're aren't less resources, THERE is more resources for everyone, because everyone is PRODUCING them.
If immigrants gathered food out of the wilderness, wed soon have no animals left, and the ecosystem would be unbalanced. At a 1.50 an hr, how do you expect an immigrant to live? Where do they live? All the land is owned, so theyd live on the streets and the surrounding woods. Better life? To you maybe. You're also falsely assuming infinite resources, which we dont have. Land is one of em.There are more resources for those that can afford them. NOT EVERYONE. Silly.
also understand that I dont want the borders shut, ,rather I do not want opened completely and w/o regards to the consequences. Doctors in America would be a good thing, I agree.
But their incomes would drop and they would consume less. Thus using your earlier economic arguements, it would be bad for the economy. I don't see how your earlier arguments wouldn't apply here.
Their incomes wouldn't drop, theyd be what they were based on skill level. Theyd consume less because of their income. I never said it would be bad for the economy, I said it would be bad for them.
You think some guy working in a high-paying high-tech job is gonna be affected by illegal aliens doing manual labor at less-than-min-wage jobs? Come on. And why are the anti-immigration forces propping up low-wage jobs? Sure, they're great for people who are just getting in the job market, but if you're 30 or older and are trying to make a living, you need MORE!
It's sad that we still have people like him in our country who either have something against those coming here to work who JUST HAPPEN to cross the border or exalt industrial jobs above all else. God, paleocons are fucking idiots. Buchanan is a perfect example of this, with the exception of foreign policy. Buchanan's hatred of non-Europeans and immigrants is really unhinged. I mean, have you read his books on immigration?
The guy makes unsubstantiated claims and exalts white Americans.
Dobbs once did a whole segment on H1-B visas and how they "hurt" American workers. He even uses the phony, ridiciulous claim that "there is no labor shortage" in fields like engineering, when clearly there is.
I also can't stand those idiots who try to support this kind of viewpoint on immigration by saying that illegal aliens cause wages to drop somewhere around 6% or 10%. I mean, sure, MAYBE in low-skill, low-wage areas. But middle and upper class workers? Hardly affected!
When wages drop, they also can't afford expensive stuff. Your logic isn't sound. You seem to be saying that wage drops go hand in hand with pricedrops and therefor the poor don't gain or lose anything. This is not true. The produced stuff is simply bought by wealthier people. All you get is an increased difference between rich and poor.
Immigration is class warfare. But I don't expect you to care about the general good like most people.
Your logic is flawed. When goods become cheaper, provided there is sufficent competition, prices WILL drop. It is a well documented fact that competition, forces companies to lower costs, which will be passed onto consumers. However, if you only allow certain companies to lower costs, then you are correct, those savings WILL NOT be passed onto consumers. However your closed border ideas, help ensure that happens.
If you bring more workers on the market, the workers become less scarce which means their 'worth'/wages go down. This is why countries with a population explosion have a lot of poverty.
If workers become more scarce wages go up and working conditions improve. You can test this with historic development.
I understand simple increases in supply, but you totally ignore the benefit to consumers. The fact that increased production is what raises living standards can be varified historically.You also ignore that why the worker entering the country may still be in poverty, he is better off or he WOULD NOT BE COMING TO THE OTHER COUNTRY. Countries with alot of poverty are typically rely on substience farming, this requires them to have alot of kids, THAT is why their population is so high.
I agree that the person entering let's say the US would be better off than staying in his povertyridden country. However, the reason why third world countries are so poor today and why people flee is for a great part because of population explosion.
The formula remains true: more workers, worse working condition... and less workers, better working conditions.
Subsistence farming doesn't result in population growth. It's the lowering CHILD MORTALITY that results in population growth.
Lou Dobbs is the only jackass I see here. I'll listen to the experts, Lou. Why the hell would I listen to a moron who always gets his facts wrong and blames illegal aliens for everything? I mean, that's just about all he does on his show! He has no evidence or faulty evidence to back up his claims that we need this extremely strict immigration policy.
Hey, Lou, how about reading a book or a journal article on the topic? Instead of blowing hot air out your ass.
Amen. Seriously, there is a reason so many economist favor more immigration. Could it be that they understand it, and it's impacts, or could it be they are all idiots. Considering most economist have attended graduate school, I'll go with the first option. I mean seriously, why does Dobbs think he understands the economy better through his populist viewpoint?
The manufacturing workers can't get special treatment and be shielded from reality forever. Government protectionism to keep them in these industrial jobs just lags our economy. Their efforts would be much better in higher-skilled labor. It's the logical next stop. I mean, any idiot who can work with his hands and has half a brain can be a factory worker. But it takes actual intelligence and high-skill training to do an IT job.
I live in Canada and Free trade has definately not helped Canada at all. Hell the Only places helped by free trade is CHina and India and other third world countries. Free trade would work between 1st world nations but cant work between 1st and second and third world nations due to labour laws and other things like this.
Well, here's one benefit to Canada: MUCH lower prices! Doy! That means more money in your pocket. Sure, jobs are gonna be lost, but what is the alternative? Banning outsourcing? Yeah, like that'll do any good. Without any lower-cost places to go, those businesses would shut down! and then they'd lay off ALL their workers from Canada or the US. Besides, the layoffs in a way are good because then the workers can put their skills to better use. after all, this is a postindustrial econ.
what a stupid segment. christine romans says the free tradists advocate seeing people as commodities. I would say it is precisely because there is a lack of openness, an attempt to REGULATE, that people (migrants) are seen as goods. You got it the wrong way woman.
iljc82 - actually thats how economist look at it.. people along with their skills are goods and when an economy unbalanced itself, these people will go somewhere else to find work. Just as companies reduce their inventories and their production to balanca themselves to the market, so are people in an open-border state.. Look at Europe and its lifestyle, the idea that you can move according to your needs, in a free unrestricted way it an economic stimulus on itself. Pay atntion in your classes.
It is not a free and unrestricted economy, check out the H-1B laws and criteria and pay rates. Most people who claim free trade and labor would not even be interested in it if all things were equal. And ,I lived for many years in Europe what you are saying is incorrect, you simply cannot move at will. I am for free trade and free labor markets, that is not what we have going on-at all.
Lou Dumbs - what an idiot this guy is. He claims to be Mr Independent but sounds like a right winger. I have never heard im say anything positive and his show is packed with baseless lies.
You must be either an illeagel immigrant who opposes such american values or your truly an idiot. Why do you care what he "claims" to be. What he is saying is the truth about the real issues here. If you have a problem with American democracy, why do you live here?
It is people like you who think they love America but are in fact a burden on the society....just brainwashed duds. You should consider leaving America but the problem is no country would want you.
By the way, learn how to spell illegal. Or in general, learn how to write when spell check is not available :)
Honestly tho on a separate and ironic note cheap labour for home construction from immigrants (south California and Florida) added to the collapse. What I don't understand is if your borders are open just don't allow kids to go to school or people to use the safety net if they are not citizens. Let the kids stay at home and the parent can send back money if they choose to immigrate illegally. No taxes no state benifits!
The real irony is, that the people who clamour that they have a right to be in America and have a right to come in, come from countries who do not extend the same right to Americans. I cannot go work in Mexico nor in India. This is free trade? The word "Global Economy" in and of itself - is a misnomer.
PammyG68, you are a typical us ignorant... YES you may work in Mexico or in india if you want to. All you have to do, at least in Mexico, is to get a letter of employment from your employer and you shall get your stamp, or simply ask for an FM1 permit in mexico when crossing the border and you will get one. Just as easy as that. OHHH and afterwards, when you have been residing in mexico for 2 to 5 years, you may apply for naturalization... just as easy as that. Dont talk about shit u dont know
Sorry, you are incorrect about that, India has laws on the books against such and although one may work in Mexico they are simply not going to displace their own people to give jobs to foreign people, that is not the issue at hand, the issue is people are being brought over to work for 30-50% less and tied to one employer for 5 years. I have lived all over the world and for many years in Northern Europe, although one may work in some countries jobs go to their own cit. first.
And you are a typical internet loud mouth. Wow, talk about talking about subjects you know nothing about!! I just brought up immigration laws in the countries you mentioned..ALL FALSE. India has a LAW on the books against such. I like ,"Don't talk about shit u don't know." Most countries have figure out that their labor pool IS their economy. You are the one talking out of your ass. You sound like a hubristic millenal who perceives the world as he wants it to be-not as it is.
Imagine if everyone has to grow their own food, make their own house. It is the same on the national level, don't be blinded by your nationalism to make that connection. The idea of free trade and comparative advantage are what has built the first world. Yes some will lose jobs in the process(carriage makers lost their jobs to the automotive industry, assemblers lost theirs to robots), but on the whole, everyone gains.
Setting aside lame ideology, Mexico's economy is in horrible condition. Yes, free trade is good, but only under perfect market conditions which have almost erroded. Society can benefit from legal immigration and Dobbs was mentioned that: watch his full interview with Paul Waldman. But an influx of millions of illegal immigrants will hurt any economy and can lead to a partide state. You need to take into account the downward pressure on wages. And yes I also agree with Dobbs on the bailout.
Sorry it took me a little while to respond dconjar. I'm glad to see that you're going by science and you see that your American Indian comment was, well, I'm glad you got my point.
There's is much that you and I will agree on, such as no benefits or entitlements for illegal immigrants because that rewards bad behavior.
As far as "healthy immirgation" goes, sorry man, with the current state of the U.S. economy, no kind of immigration is healthy. Just look up California's water crisis.
I think it's funny how Lou Dobbs almost always talks about Free Trade as a bad thing; it's been proven to benefit both countries who enter a trade agreement.
Really? Where's the proof? Why don't you ask the peasants of Mexico how they feel about NAFTA. Or one of the workers in the US that was displaced because of it. Please explain how free trade with countries who incorporate slave labor is good for the US?
Well, it's good for the U.S. consumer- cheap goods- which increases the purchasing power of Americans. It's good for Mexicans when they open up factories because it gives them jobs, which is more than nothing. Proof: Standard of Living has risen in locations where Mexicans are employed by foreign businesses.
To look at the short run, yes, Americans may lose jobs. However, a successful economy (ask any economist)looks for steady, long term growth. I'm out of characters- I'll be happy to go on.
I'm affraid you're inconsistent with the facts. Mexico's economy is in the gutter. Make no mistake, I respect the theory of your argument, but that is just not what's happening. You're going under the assumption that businesses will pass on the earnings that they get from cheap foreign labor to the consumer. That hasn't been the case. You also need to take into consideration the impact on wages. What you're saying does hold water, but only in perfect market conditions.
There's no doubt that Mexico doesn't have such a great economy, but what I was bringing up was that the standard of living rises, even just a little bit, if people have jobs. Sure, the salary can be extremely low, but some wages are better than no wages. These peope then have money to spend, primarily for food/basic needs, and may eventually go beyond. Sure, it's limited, but if they didn't have jobs, aggregate demand would fall, since they couldn't buy anything.
I appreciate the reply Marx. Remember what I was talking about with perfect market conditions? The whole idea is for an economy to thrive in the free market sense. Right now Mexico is on the verge of collapse due to economic conditions and government corruption. Mexico has become too dependent on unilateral tranfers from the U.S. The wages that I was refering to are the ones here in the U.S. A study done at Harvard shows $300 billion dollars in depressed wages. Aggregate demand goes down.
well lou i have to disagree with you, you are the idiot
nbonasoro 4 days ago
Unlimited immigration? No thanks; I don't want to live in Brazil.
scottvska 4 months ago
You people realize that a 'complete open borders policy' + 'getting of all welfare' = 'lowering the average US living conditions to something close to what you have in Africa/South-America'. And it will take quite a while before the economy starts taking advantage of the new freedom, and that's assuming everything goes according to plan.
It -might- be good for the world, but it would be devastating for the US on the short/medium run
Are you actually prepared to make your family go through that ?
seppsters 6 months ago
We should get rid of free trade until we can afford it. Really we can't afford anything, if you argue we can, look at the fact that most of our budget is tied to entitlements and military operation. So left overs need to be distrubted carefully and we need to borrown money and such. I think that if we actually took care of our budget, insured that our budget was stable, we could then freely trade with countries because when you trade with other nations who are poorer than us, we have more 2 lose
weedisoxygen 7 months ago
Yeah, open border immigration with a welfare state is a bad idea. The value of all those immigrants labor would not in general come close to our minimum wage, which would force them under the welfare or other government "entitlement" programs. Milton Friedman's approach would be much more efficient and the only case in which we could justify complete open borders for law abiding immigrants.
groam6666 10 months ago
oh yeah! also have a coke and smile :)
bige1481 10 months ago
quit crying you bunch of girls! just take your ass fucking like a man!
bige1481 10 months ago
I can't help but coment twice, "how do you compare workers, to apples?" well dobbs, it's pretty simple: labor and apples both are scarce resources that are subject to supply and demand curves. Before you comment on economics, at least pick up the basics.
ThePythagoran 11 months ago
okay, arguing about free trade is really about as necessary as arguments for a flat earth. From Smith to Friedman, from computer models to empirical evidence to an even cursory understanding of sociology all point in one direction: free trade is good.
ThePythagoran 11 months ago
Every day that I show up for work I support someone who does not. Tax dollars are extorted from me (Bi-Monthly Pay Check) in an effort to pay down the interest only on our national debt. On top of that, 15% more of my check is stolen to propogate the ever burdensome Social Security / Medicair Ponzi Scheme. Illegal Immigrants are not wealthy, they are a burden to an allready burdened system. They do not understand Patriotism or Freedom, look at Mexico and realize these people were its stuards
bigcrabrob 11 months ago
@bigcrabrob You're right about the burden of the ultimate transitional gains trap: social security. But illegal immigrants are NOT a burden to the "system". They are net taxpayers. That means illegal immigrants are the best deal for Uncle Sam when it comes to helping pay of the nation's debt! And contrary to some believes, they can't collect welfare: they're illegal! So remind me again, how does someone who risks his/her life for the chance to be a net taxpayer not understand freedom?
thecountmontecristo 10 months ago
@thecountmontecristo I didnt say that some illegals dont pay taxes, I said look to the stuards of Mexican Government (Illegal Immagrants) to see their understanding of freedom and liberty, of standing against tyranical, corrupt government. The record there is not so good, if you argue with that clear and simple fact then I have no more time to honestly openly converse/debate with you. It is time to act like American's here in America, regardles of skin color or language.
bigcrabrob 10 months ago
@thecountmontecristo I dont have to time to go in to more detail at this minute, doing butt loads of paperwork, will get back to you as soon as I can with more. Thanks for responding by the way and being civil, I enjoy hearing others ideas and beliefs.
bigcrabrob 10 months ago
Wow Lou Dobbs is not politically correct, and he is not interested in what un-educated and mis-educated "Jackasses" hypothesize as "good for America". If you are not here legally, then your a criminal.... it's really that simple. Mexican's surrendered there gun's and right's to tyranicall autocracts who now kneel before drug lords and organized criminal's who terrorize there people. Illegal's are just the kind of freedom loving citizen's America need's right?
bigcrabrob 11 months ago
Wow Lou Dobbs is a freaking retard.
condraj2 11 months ago
In 1848 the US Federal State stole ALL of present-day California, Nevada, Utah and MASSIVE amounts of present day Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Wyoming.
qwertypoiu4321 1 year ago
@qwertypoiu4321 lol ya land which spain stole from the indian nations in north america where are you going with this buddy aztecs did the same shit to a lesser extent before the spanish arrived just humans man expansion is a part of it
Azicpok1 1 year ago
@Azicpok1 The Citizens of Mexico recieved independence in 1820 from Spain, and it became its own country. The US INVADED the Rio Grande and then proceeded to steal 50% of Mexico.
qwertypoiu4321 1 year ago
The day that America would have open immigration, pigs will fly.
Leo90 1 year ago
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We can stop this illegal invaison . If citizens like you, who are concern about the influx of illegals, become vigilant , report illegal aliens in you communities. Not here to ruin lives, However I believe in controlling the influx of illegal aliens through our borders, into our cities & towns . Report Illegals,
1-866-347-2423
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onstageagain 1 year ago
CNN is shit, thumbs up
wanyxspe123 1 year ago
Hahahah I just lost all respect for Lou Dobbs. You don't even try to justify your empty arguments. THUMBS DOWN LOU!
publicanimal 1 year ago
LOU DRUGS!
gadslca 1 year ago
LOU DRUGS!
gadslca 1 year ago
Dobbs is a business man, after all we wouldn't want to tarnish the EB5 Program eh Dobbs. Make these illegals enter this country the RIGHT Way through the EB5 program Huh Lou?? What's that, you are an illegal from Mexico and want to enter the US but you can't? Oh wait what's this, you have $500,000 in disposable income? Step this way Mr Sanchez and you will obtain your green card ASAP! LMFAO LMFAO!
Slayerfan84 1 year ago
@AlessioDAlessandro
Globalization is Treason.
Ridd333 1 year ago
@Ridd333 the professor he calls and idiot is my professor :/
Jitters10 1 year ago
@Jitters10 Ah so you went to GMU? I recall seeing my professor, Don Boudreaux, handed Lou Dobbs his ass in a debate on Stossel
GoingGoingGalt 1 year ago
@Jitters10 your professor is an IDIOT!!!!! Maybe we should import 1,000,000 economists from around the world to the United States and give them jobs in our Universities and Financial institutions. So they will replace the current economic professors and economists and at Financial institutions. How about that ha?
85gevork 1 year ago
@85gevork for your sake, it seems more necessary to import English teachers...
Jitters10 1 year ago
@Jitters10 is that your best argument. what's your major? I hope in whatever field of study that you are in, we will import as many people from around the world to takover jobs in your field that way we will drive down your salary, more supply less demand. Your professor has a Pimpin Hoe degree (Phd). It seems like you like the pimp.
85gevork 1 year ago
@85gevork Economics ;) And his "pimpin' hoe" degree is from George Mason University--in Washington, DC which has the most Nobel Prize laureates for economics in the Washington, DC area...hmmm
Jitters10 1 year ago
@Jitters10 and just out of curiosity, where are you from?
Jitters10 1 year ago
Ben Powell, PhD economics, later joked during a lecture on the economics of immigration that he was flattered to be called those names by one of the worst economic reporters around!
If you'd like to hear his lecture, which is about an hour long, on why he supports open borders along with the other social issues around it and how other countries fare with their border policy, email me and I'll send it to you via the foundation for economic education.
Americaisgreat123 1 year ago
@Americaisgreat123 Attended his FEE lecture on the topic... it was brilliant!
espygj8 1 year ago
He's just unable to hold his own in open debate....he ruins it for true patriots by being racist about something that has NOTHING to do with race.....and in doing so, he completely discredits those who want to see our country in a better standing in the world. We're the only country with such open boarders, and I agree that this is a problem that needs a solution, but the way Dobbs argues just ruins it for both sides of the argument by being a bigot.
Poonard 1 year ago
part of me likes some little part of Dobbs, but....there's just something about the guy, after hearing some really shady racist comments from him....i dunno, he seems to get it internally, but is unable to truly get the message of liberty and freedom by the constitution across without being a jackass himself....i was happy when he reported on the NAU plans but...he kind of ruined it because he discredited the research by being a total jack ass about it.
Poonard 1 year ago
This CHARLATAN " LOW " Dobbs is a promoter of HATE in AMERICA against Immigrants. Ironically, her family is Mexican: wife and 2 daugthers.
But the HATE PAYS in USA, AMERICA, , then, it's a very good BUSINESS for Him.
AGAPITOMELORROSAS 1 year ago
These fuckin people are really livin in a dream world
vette72green 1 year ago
god i hate lou dobbs...
CommSense 1 year ago
It would sure be nice if he would let her finish a sentence. Geez Lou.
nasaguy 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Life, Liberty & Property are the only things that need to be upheld in any society. I have the right to invite onto my property anyone I decide. That infringes no one's Liberty. The "Law" is irrelevent to Life, Liberty and Property.
Immigration just means "Movement".
If a persons movement does not infringe on anyones Life, Liberty or Property, they have a right to do that.
randyguitarman13 1 year ago
These people are jackassiess. They are talking out there ass, with this idea. I don't thank he has any education or was asleep in the back of the class. THese guys are living in some dream world but not in the real world. By the way Wall Street isn't the real main streets in america. The stock marlet news to be closed down and no more free market if this is the thinking coming out of that place. They are just saling greed all over again, thats all. That is what missed up our nation.
dduffey60 2 years ago
I agree. Lou Dobbs is really stupid.
mcduffiesteven 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Immigration is a tax on the working poor and the middle class. We need an immigration moratorium.
We need to end anchor babies and chain migration.
We need to make e Verify mandatory and jail employers that hire illegals and use loopholes to bring in immigrants on fraudulent worker visas and pocket the profits and pass the social costs onto the community.
And most importantly, stop re electing the same traitors to our country trying to shove amnesty up our as**es again. Join Numbersusa now!
rocketsredglare101 2 years ago
It only makes sense. How can you allow the free movement of goods and not people?
ILik3Turtles 2 years ago
Economists are just as bad as people who try to predict the weather. They're always wrong.
V8MeatHead 2 years ago
I do not think he came off as dumb at all. I agree with him. Most economist put making money ahead of ethics and morality. Open borders and job outsourcing are monstrous abuses of out free market economy. I support capitalism because it is that fairest and most successful economic system in history. However, it can be abused and certain rules need to be put in place to prevent those abuses (outsourcing, open borders, trade deficits, etc.).
TylerHinds 2 years ago
(our not out)Our free market economy. I apologize for the misspelling.
TylerHinds 2 years ago
it is always about slavery and how much you gotta pay em'. dobbs wants the truth about stuff. that is the marble that knocks around. lou and the rest of us are just being mislead and lied to.
DINGLEtheBERRY 2 years ago
Dobbs is trying to simplify economics and if one listens to him you can hear him even contradict himself. If it were as simple as he is making it there would be no need for the argument of immigration or no immigration. Lou is a good guy but he has lost it.
billoakesattablthree 2 years ago
Free Markets are NEVER free. Nothing is free. In a "FREE" Market there are winners and Losers. FREE FOR ALL doesn't exist and never did. Protectionist Markets also never win, why? Protecting your failed businesses never leads to a productive society. You need a Balance..You need to be open, but secured to survive, what is very difficult in our society. Not one society/nation has survived on FREE MARKETS and Wide open Borders (Rome) nor Protectionism (USSR).
nickfl1980 2 years ago
OPEN BORDERS=WILD WEST TERRITORY= destruction of a nation. Borders need to be open but secured. We need to know who gets in and out. If we don't do that but just keep it WIDE OPEN, we become a wild west territory.
nickfl1980 2 years ago
This is what Naomi Klein calls "Chicago School Economics" and disaster capitalism. Read her book "The Shock Doctrine" and find out what will happen to the US by looking at what happened in Chile, Argentina and Indonesia just to name three.
BrosaJarlen 2 years ago
Why don't they improve their own shitty country's instead of coming here and fucking up ours. We waste so much of our resources and time on these greenhorns half of them dont speak English and are nothing more then criminal scum that rubs off on our children. I have no problem with people coming over here as long as they speak English, work hard, and go through the process of coming here legally.
animeownage86 2 years ago 2
Im very sure that economist are better at economy then Lou. Sorry Lou Dobbs but you are committing a mistake arguing with experts
jorgenie07 2 years ago
Its still amazing to me that people still choose to see what they want to see. I see so many people rant against FIAT currencies because of the destruction caused by too much money, but revel at the notion of flooding this country with unskilled labor. It is true, in this day and age, that money is more valuable than people. We have to be responsible with money, but not with people. This is one of the true hypocrasies of our culture.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
Those people raving against fiat currencies are insane. They blame the Federal Reserve which has a 2 trillion dollar balance sheet for destabilizing a banking system with 480 trillion in derivatives. Plus their arguement is that fiat currency isn't a commodity as it isn't subject to scarcity (I don't get this, there is certainly a money supply, and demand for it). No one thinks that labor ISN'T a commodity. I don't understand how labor not being put to it's most productive use is a bad thing.
themostimproved 2 years ago
The issue with FIAT anything, and it is an issue, is that printing money and making it available in the first place (w/o boundaries) is that anyone can get it. W/O getting into specifics, which i dont have time for, the derivatives were partially allowed because of the so called fractional reserve banking. That is banks were allowed to create money from money. This is part of the whole reserve banking system, including the FED.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
As usual Lou Dobbs is right on the mark. HE is a Harvard-educated economist and knows exactly what he's talking about. These other JACKASSES haven't got a clue. Unemployment in the USA is close to double digits. America's poor deserve the jobs more than any illegal, or any other foreigner coming here to find work. AMERICAN JOBS FOR AMERICANS ONLY!
AnBon74 2 years ago
Um the supply side ramifiactions for making wages higher, would actually lead to less emplyoment there champ. If less goods are being made due to high costs (such as wages) less people are employed.
themostimproved 2 years ago
We did just fine when there was a much smaller population of illegals. Yes the cost of living still rises, but people are still buying cigarettes (not a necessity) despite the very high price. Thus people will still buy the necessities of life (food, clothing etc), even if priced higher, meaning the same amount of goods will still be made, and the same amount of people will be employed: AMERICAN EMPLOYED. I would rather buy a tomato costing $3, knowing an American picked it.
AnBon74 2 years ago
Demand for cigarettes is most certainlly much more inelastic then for most goods. Plus that extra money spent on necessities has to come from SOMEWHERE. If we allowed people to immigrate, people could have necessitys plus some comforts, under your system they would just have necessities, which means less goods produced, translates into less wealth. There is no finite supply of wealth. The rest of your arguement centers on NATIONALISM which is based in emotion, not logic.
themostimproved 2 years ago
share genius man, you a Phd graduate?
BajanCreation 2 years ago
These "free market" economists are about as capitalist as Che Guevera.
Pirate1014 2 years ago 2
No kidding, while I favor FREER markets, I'd hardly call myself a free marketer.
themostimproved 2 years ago
Why is immigration the only thing Lou Dobbs talks about? I don't get it!
datcity 2 years ago
Because it's an extremely important issue and a huge threat to our sovereignty and identity as a country. And it isn't the only thing LD talks about. If you watched regularly, you'd see that.
AnBon74 2 years ago
Time will tell who the "jackasses" were but it will be too late to bring us back to prosperity.
okdokee30233 2 years ago
Yeah..history will judge the leaders no doubt. That is..if the world hasnt been destroyed due to pollution or over population. In any event if were still alive and kicking, well have to simply create a new prosperity. Even if we arent "leading" the rest of the world.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
Also, demand for unskilled labor is always there, and for many reasons. In some cases its there for production cost, and in other cases labor costs, but in both cases its there to benefit the employer and not the employee. The employee has no wage leverage here and cant choose to make more, unless given all the opportunities. Yes they come here to work, but thats just incidental. The employer still uses this fact, illegal or not, to use their cheap labor for his/her benefit.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
So demand for labor is always there, and is high, yet workers cannot find other employment oppertunities? Wouldn't competing capitalist offer higher wages so they could secure more of those unskilled workers.
themostimproved 2 years ago
We're still having this conversation o.O? ;P
When the labor pool is very high, competing capitalists dont have to offer higher wages to secure more unskilled labor. They can offer whatever they want to those people knowing perfectly well they can always replace them if needed. These are the some of the same benefits that slave traders reaped 100 years ago.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
The difference is that NO ONE forces the immigrant to come here. I don't understand why you think they are coming here, if they aren't better off here. If their native markets are SO awesome, why are people leaving them?
themostimproved 2 years ago
Nobody forces them to come here, that isnt the point. Anyone who needs to work to survive will come here. Thats why they leave their countries. Force isnt necessary. Its just convenient for you to say this because it serves your purpose. This isnt my argument. My argument has and always will be that they WONT be better off here making unlivable wages. Flooding this country w/ cheap labor is the way "free marketeers" want to us to compete w/ china.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
I feel I should mention, that I don't have a problem with screening the immigrant to see that he or she isn't a threat to national security. What I want is labor to follow it's need. Literally, free trade of labor.
themostimproved 2 years ago
Lou Dobbs had it right about free market economist.
hotrodmarcus63 2 years ago
Weee anti-intellectualism. The best kind of populism. It's even better then economic nationalism.
themostimproved 2 years ago
Haha how is what im saying anti-intellectualism. A very low jab at someone w/ weak arguments.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
Comparative Advantage was show in the 1800s. You are the one that is saying the immigrant is an idiot, and going to a country for the hell of it, that demand will be less due to less wages (even though marginal consumption is higher at lower incomes, hence why keynesians always want stimulus to help the poor in recession). I was jabbing at him for blasting someone who has been trained in a field, when he hasn't. How is that NOT anti-intellectualism.
themostimproved 2 years ago
I never said the immigrants an idiot, thats just a lie. They dont come to our country for the hell of it, another lie, they come here to work. I never said demand will be less due to less wages, i said that their quality of life wont be much better at lower wages, as they wont be able to afford the necessities to survive. Marginal consumption? Of what. Low incomes yes, at 5-10 bucks an hr, not 1 -3 bucks an hr, theres a big diff. OK that jab was for someone else...my bad :)
vidfreak56 2 years ago
"First, I dont admit theyd be better off in america, thats just a lie" Sounds like you think they are not serving their interest coming to america, even though they feel they are. Sounds like an insult on their intellgence to me. I meant earlier that lower incomes consume more of their paychecks. Must've been another poster.
themostimproved 2 years ago
"even though they feel they are". You assume this is true. YOU. They come to America for opportunity, which is what anyone will do. You seem to think they are only good for cheap labor. Whos insulting whos intelligence??
vidfreak56 2 years ago
You also seem to not understand the notion of flooring prices. Prices can never go infinitely low, so that everyone, no matter what the wage, will be able to afford them. At some point the production wont be profitable, so it will cease, bringing supply down and price up. Hence in order for people to be able to afford things, they have to make enough money to buy it. An immigrant making 1.50 an hour will often always be priced out of the market. Thats fair?
vidfreak56 2 years ago
Your are right the world isn't a damnit utopia, and that prices aren't going to go down for enough for everyone to afford them. What i think is that the immigrant is WAY better off coming to America and being employed. America's poverty > third world poverty. My apologies on not wording that notion clearly.
themostimproved 2 years ago
TY for speaking the truth. I reject the notion that people are better off living in poverty in America, even if you dont. Id rather they be able to enjoy better lives using their own markets in their own countries.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
I have a question, how do you define "different" markets? Should States also not be allowed to flood each other with cheap labor. Certainly midwestern states would offer cheaper labor veruses moder urbanized states. Would that "flood" the labor market too?
themostimproved 2 years ago
Its been a while, so youll have to refresh my memory asto what I said over a month ago (if you're replying to me). To answer your quesiton, yes. States flooding other states with labor could be an issue, and it probably has. But, hopefully itll never come up due to things like minimum wage, and fair market practices. But ask yourself whether youd rather flood markets with workers in America? Or should we add 100 million MORE to the mix. The former is much more acceptible. If its to happen.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
OH and btw, if state-flooding became a problem youd see states start to regulate their borders. Texas would probably be the first.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
Are you one of the programmable liberal socialist bots?
hotrodmarcus63 2 years ago
Comment removed
themostimproved 2 years ago
What I am trying to get you to understand is the economic pie is not fixed. In capitalism, as long as it is VOLUNTARY, both parties will win, or else they would not agree to it. Higher incomes means nothing if goods are expensive.
themostimproved 2 years ago
In capitalism, both parties will never win, unless both parties have counter leverage. If only one of the parties has leverage you can have no fairness in trade. Is it fair that someone immigrates to another country to get a better life, only to be worked as a slave for a slave wage, and live a short life because they cant access healthcare? That doesnt say much for "living a better life". Sure life is better compared to living w/ nothing, but its traded for a miserable life in America.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
so you #1 admit they would be better off in america. #2 I'm sorry, people cannot be compensated more then what they produce, in response to your "wage slavery" arguement, it is just not feasible. Otherwise more people will do unskilled labor instead of bettering themselves, or using any skills they have. Also, I don't understand why the worker doesn't have any leverage. Is it not true that he or she can not seek employment elsewhere? Granted Illegals cannot do this.
themostimproved 2 years ago
First, I dont admit theyd be better off in america, thats just a lie. They have a better chance of livinng maybe a few more years, and 30-40 more for the lucky ones, but youd be hard pressed to say theyd h ave alife. People are always compensated more than they "produce", because "produce" is a relative term coined by business owners.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
Granted IM NOT saying everyone should get an equal cut, otherwise, unskilled labor will be in high demand, rather that we at least regulate the borders to keep labor demand as low as we can. Workers only have leverage if they have choices. You're flat out assuming work will be abundant enough to go around. With a huge influx of population (too large), pay will be driven down, and jobs will become scarce as tech gets more efficient (robot workers). The notion of infinite jobs is a myth.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
History is absolutely crystal clear. Techology becoming more efficient creates demand for labor. For instance, the cotton gin greatly boosted the size and amount of slaves a plantation needed, even though it took away a use of their labor (removal of cotton seeds). The fact that wages fall ALLOWS more jobs to be created, as business can afford to pay them because of it. Study the pricing system, and how it works. Prices reflect supply and demand, not the other way around.
themostimproved 2 years ago
History, at best, is clear, but smudged. The cottin gin is one example, but hardly the proof that technology increases demand for labor. Only in the case that human intervention is needed for that labor. This isnt true w/ robotics. Wages falling allows more jobs, yes, but everyone who make those wages are effected because the standard of living will go down for them. I never said prices dont reflect supply and demand dumbass. Learn to interpret.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
Unskilled labor would be in high SUPPLY wioth an equal cut, not high demand. Demand would be low, as employeers could not afford to employ many workers, or could not make a profit doing so.
themostimproved 2 years ago
I never said anything about an equal cut. But yes you are right. Hence the need to control the amount of unskilled labor coming into the country. Add to that overpopulation issues due to mass immigration.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
False. As long as both parties have leverage both parties will win. If you are starving for food, you don't agree to work, you do so to survive. If an immigrant comes to this country to work, then they have no leverage. The job they do is whatever is available to them. They cant start their own business, or buy guns to hunt, or clothes. Hence they are subject to the whims of others, regardless of the job and what it entails. Thats not equal leverage.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
I'm talking about legal immigrants here. The reason I want them as LEGAL immigrants is so they have leverage.
themostimproved 2 years ago
Legalizing them doesnt give them leverage. Leverage is only obtained when their skills are in high enough demand so they can make a decent living.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
So allowing their employer to not threaten to have them removed by the feds wouldn't increase their leverage? And you jabbed me with weak agruments?
themostimproved 2 years ago
Having their employer threaten them is a result of the kind of leverage that can be used, not that its the only leverage. And yes you do have weak arguments, sry. My opinion, i know :).
vidfreak56 2 years ago
I guess we view the world differently, I think there is plenty of demand for unskilled labor (outsourcing proves this). Since there is a demand for it, provided the immigrant can move to another employer, I do not see him being abused. The abuse suffered by immgrants in the 1920s IMO was due to the fact we allowed corporation monopoly power. I definitely support Anti-trusts and things like that. Proviveded that immigrant has somewhere to go, he has leverage, it does not matter his skills.
themostimproved 2 years ago
I agree. We both have a difference of opinion asto what will "work". There is plenty of demand, yes, but that doesnt mean he or she will live a better life. We also disagree on "better life". Leverage for my argument is leverage for a better wage, which means a better life. Something that someone can live off of so they can enjoy a decent life, like many of us do (w/ a roof over their heads). Switching from employer to employer isnt leverage his or her wage.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
While I dont agree w/ Dobbs tact here, I tend to agree that a completely open border policy would be a bad one. The free marketeers are correct in the assumption that it would solve our border issues, but only (if they dont say it outright) at the expense of our population. Overpopulation would be the next debate if this were to take place. How would the free market solve this? Where would people go if the US were their only REAL chance at a life? Would they go anywhere or stay put?
vidfreak56 2 years ago
People tend to be net producers, especailly without any welfare. Due to this fact, overpopulation would not be as big of an issue. Also all evidence points to as the standard of living rises, poeple have less kids. People are moving to America to have a higher standard of living, and this will naturally lead to less population growth. So overall, on a whole, world population growth may actually SLOW.
themostimproved 2 years ago
Evidence? What evidence suggests that people WILL have less children. Ideological nonsense. People will move to America to get higher standards of living if they are paid well. That will never happen in a truly free market. Especially if the labor is cheap. We'll get dumped millions of other countries populace, as job "growth" occurs because some job is better than no job to many people. Our population wont need to come from births, because well get it from mass immigration.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
Ideological nonsense? Or perhaps the population trend of EVERY INDUSTRILIZED NATION EVER. As people spend more time in school, and need less cheap labor on farms, and birth control becomes more availible, they have less children. Higher living standard are due to goods becoming cheaper, NOT labor. Working does not improve your living conditions, but your payment does, because then you can buy goods. Thus anything that makes more goods, will raise living standards.
themostimproved 2 years ago
The trend? Evidence? More specifically give me evidence with double or even triple our population. You cant. Less cheap labor? Your confused. Mass immigration (unskilled) will BE cheap labor (try 1.50 and hour down to pennies on the dollar). Higher living standards (universal) are due to class not cheap goods. Payment has to be high enough for people to afford higher standards. Something that won't happen. Yes, raise livingn standards for you, but certainly not for them.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
It won't raise living standard for immigration won't raise living standard of people coming into america, WHY WOULD THEY COME THEN. More plentiful goods (thus cheaper) doesn't raise the standard of living? So when Henry ford make cars cheaper, it didn't help the average american? It probably at first led to less employment, as his workers became more efficent. I am sorry I don't often cite basic facts on our population. It was common knowledge in my sociology class in HIGH SCHOOL.
themostimproved 2 years ago
They come to work, regardless of what the pay is. They come to get the opportunity to work. Living standards doesnt factor into it. More plentiful goods, raises the living standards of those who can afford it. Cheaper cars help the average american, not the wage slave. IT doesnt lead to less employment, as you have mischaracterized what im saying. You seem to believe that everyone will have higher standards of living, but fail to see the problems due to overpopulation (From mass immigr).
vidfreak56 2 years ago
So you seriously think, the immigrant is NOT better off in america, with a low wage job, and instead would be better off in their orginal country? More plentiful goods lowers the price (veryyyyy basic economics), allowing more people to afford those goods. Overpopulation is only a problem if not everyone is producing, which simply won't happen provided everyone is working. Please keep in mind I want doctors and the like to immigrate to america as well, Unfortuately Nafta does not allow this.
themostimproved 2 years ago
You think the immigrant is better off making 1.50/hr with no way to afford HC, or even a house for his or her family, and die young, not living the same standard as the upper classes? Id rather their countries allow for them to be prosperous their than for us not to allow them prosperity here. Overpopulationn is a problem regardless of the number of people producing. Its a taxation on land, resources, and directly effects everyone.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
Yes, I think the immigrant is better off making $1.50 then gathering food out of the wilderness. If people are producing more resources then they are consuming, then they're aren't less resources, THERE is more resources for everyone, because everyone is PRODUCING them.
themostimproved 2 years ago
If immigrants gathered food out of the wilderness, wed soon have no animals left, and the ecosystem would be unbalanced. At a 1.50 an hr, how do you expect an immigrant to live? Where do they live? All the land is owned, so theyd live on the streets and the surrounding woods. Better life? To you maybe. You're also falsely assuming infinite resources, which we dont have. Land is one of em.There are more resources for those that can afford them. NOT EVERYONE. Silly.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
also understand that I dont want the borders shut, ,rather I do not want opened completely and w/o regards to the consequences. Doctors in America would be a good thing, I agree.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
But their incomes would drop and they would consume less. Thus using your earlier economic arguements, it would be bad for the economy. I don't see how your earlier arguments wouldn't apply here.
themostimproved 2 years ago
Their incomes wouldn't drop, theyd be what they were based on skill level. Theyd consume less because of their income. I never said it would be bad for the economy, I said it would be bad for them.
vidfreak56 2 years ago
You think some guy working in a high-paying high-tech job is gonna be affected by illegal aliens doing manual labor at less-than-min-wage jobs? Come on. And why are the anti-immigration forces propping up low-wage jobs? Sure, they're great for people who are just getting in the job market, but if you're 30 or older and are trying to make a living, you need MORE!
whoo689 2 years ago
It's sad that we still have people like him in our country who either have something against those coming here to work who JUST HAPPEN to cross the border or exalt industrial jobs above all else. God, paleocons are fucking idiots. Buchanan is a perfect example of this, with the exception of foreign policy. Buchanan's hatred of non-Europeans and immigrants is really unhinged. I mean, have you read his books on immigration?
The guy makes unsubstantiated claims and exalts white Americans.
whoo689 2 years ago
Dobbs once did a whole segment on H1-B visas and how they "hurt" American workers. He even uses the phony, ridiciulous claim that "there is no labor shortage" in fields like engineering, when clearly there is.
I also can't stand those idiots who try to support this kind of viewpoint on immigration by saying that illegal aliens cause wages to drop somewhere around 6% or 10%. I mean, sure, MAYBE in low-skill, low-wage areas. But middle and upper class workers? Hardly affected!
whoo689 2 years ago
Are you allright with wage drops in low-skill, low-wage areas?
Shame on you.
93rardo 2 years ago
Are you alright with more expensive goods, so that the poor can't afford them.
themostimproved 2 years ago
When wages drop, they also can't afford expensive stuff. Your logic isn't sound. You seem to be saying that wage drops go hand in hand with pricedrops and therefor the poor don't gain or lose anything. This is not true. The produced stuff is simply bought by wealthier people. All you get is an increased difference between rich and poor.
Immigration is class warfare. But I don't expect you to care about the general good like most people.
93rardo 2 years ago
Your logic is flawed. When goods become cheaper, provided there is sufficent competition, prices WILL drop. It is a well documented fact that competition, forces companies to lower costs, which will be passed onto consumers. However, if you only allow certain companies to lower costs, then you are correct, those savings WILL NOT be passed onto consumers. However your closed border ideas, help ensure that happens.
themostimproved 2 years ago
If you bring more workers on the market, the workers become less scarce which means their 'worth'/wages go down. This is why countries with a population explosion have a lot of poverty.
If workers become more scarce wages go up and working conditions improve. You can test this with historic development.
93rardo 2 years ago
I understand simple increases in supply, but you totally ignore the benefit to consumers. The fact that increased production is what raises living standards can be varified historically.You also ignore that why the worker entering the country may still be in poverty, he is better off or he WOULD NOT BE COMING TO THE OTHER COUNTRY. Countries with alot of poverty are typically rely on substience farming, this requires them to have alot of kids, THAT is why their population is so high.
themostimproved 2 years ago
I agree that the person entering let's say the US would be better off than staying in his povertyridden country. However, the reason why third world countries are so poor today and why people flee is for a great part because of population explosion.
The formula remains true: more workers, worse working condition... and less workers, better working conditions.
Subsistence farming doesn't result in population growth. It's the lowering CHILD MORTALITY that results in population growth.
93rardo 2 years ago
Lou Dobbs is the only jackass I see here. I'll listen to the experts, Lou. Why the hell would I listen to a moron who always gets his facts wrong and blames illegal aliens for everything? I mean, that's just about all he does on his show! He has no evidence or faulty evidence to back up his claims that we need this extremely strict immigration policy.
Hey, Lou, how about reading a book or a journal article on the topic? Instead of blowing hot air out your ass.
whoo689 2 years ago
Amen. Seriously, there is a reason so many economist favor more immigration. Could it be that they understand it, and it's impacts, or could it be they are all idiots. Considering most economist have attended graduate school, I'll go with the first option. I mean seriously, why does Dobbs think he understands the economy better through his populist viewpoint?
themostimproved 2 years ago
The manufacturing workers can't get special treatment and be shielded from reality forever. Government protectionism to keep them in these industrial jobs just lags our economy. Their efforts would be much better in higher-skilled labor. It's the logical next stop. I mean, any idiot who can work with his hands and has half a brain can be a factory worker. But it takes actual intelligence and high-skill training to do an IT job.
whoo689 2 years ago
I live in Canada and Free trade has definately not helped Canada at all. Hell the Only places helped by free trade is CHina and India and other third world countries. Free trade would work between 1st world nations but cant work between 1st and second and third world nations due to labour laws and other things like this.
MASTERARTGOD 2 years ago
Well, here's one benefit to Canada: MUCH lower prices! Doy! That means more money in your pocket. Sure, jobs are gonna be lost, but what is the alternative? Banning outsourcing? Yeah, like that'll do any good. Without any lower-cost places to go, those businesses would shut down! and then they'd lay off ALL their workers from Canada or the US. Besides, the layoffs in a way are good because then the workers can put their skills to better use. after all, this is a postindustrial econ.
whoo689 2 years ago
Cheaper goods doesn't help Canada?
themostimproved 2 years ago
Lou Dobbs still has our back!!!!!!!
ExplicitContent81 2 years ago 3
what a stupid segment. christine romans says the free tradists advocate seeing people as commodities. I would say it is precisely because there is a lack of openness, an attempt to REGULATE, that people (migrants) are seen as goods. You got it the wrong way woman.
iljc82 2 years ago
iljc82 - actually thats how economist look at it.. people along with their skills are goods and when an economy unbalanced itself, these people will go somewhere else to find work. Just as companies reduce their inventories and their production to balanca themselves to the market, so are people in an open-border state.. Look at Europe and its lifestyle, the idea that you can move according to your needs, in a free unrestricted way it an economic stimulus on itself. Pay atntion in your classes.
fdosaq 2 years ago
It is not a free and unrestricted economy, check out the H-1B laws and criteria and pay rates. Most people who claim free trade and labor would not even be interested in it if all things were equal. And ,I lived for many years in Europe what you are saying is incorrect, you simply cannot move at will. I am for free trade and free labor markets, that is not what we have going on-at all.
PammyG68 2 years ago
Lou Dumbs - what an idiot this guy is. He claims to be Mr Independent but sounds like a right winger. I have never heard im say anything positive and his show is packed with baseless lies.
nilesdingo 3 years ago
You must be either an illeagel immigrant who opposes such american values or your truly an idiot. Why do you care what he "claims" to be. What he is saying is the truth about the real issues here. If you have a problem with American democracy, why do you live here?
MHayes85 3 years ago
It is people like you who think they love America but are in fact a burden on the society....just brainwashed duds. You should consider leaving America but the problem is no country would want you.
By the way, learn how to spell illegal. Or in general, learn how to write when spell check is not available :)
nilesdingo 3 years ago 2
Your an idiot.
MHayes85 3 years ago
Honestly tho on a separate and ironic note cheap labour for home construction from immigrants (south California and Florida) added to the collapse. What I don't understand is if your borders are open just don't allow kids to go to school or people to use the safety net if they are not citizens. Let the kids stay at home and the parent can send back money if they choose to immigrate illegally. No taxes no state benifits!
Invain01 3 years ago
Show another first world country that allows immigration like ours. You can't find one.
Invain01 3 years ago
The real irony is, that the people who clamour that they have a right to be in America and have a right to come in, come from countries who do not extend the same right to Americans. I cannot go work in Mexico nor in India. This is free trade? The word "Global Economy" in and of itself - is a misnomer.
PammyG68 2 years ago
PammyG68, you are a typical us ignorant... YES you may work in Mexico or in india if you want to. All you have to do, at least in Mexico, is to get a letter of employment from your employer and you shall get your stamp, or simply ask for an FM1 permit in mexico when crossing the border and you will get one. Just as easy as that. OHHH and afterwards, when you have been residing in mexico for 2 to 5 years, you may apply for naturalization... just as easy as that. Dont talk about shit u dont know
fdosaq 2 years ago
Sorry, you are incorrect about that, India has laws on the books against such and although one may work in Mexico they are simply not going to displace their own people to give jobs to foreign people, that is not the issue at hand, the issue is people are being brought over to work for 30-50% less and tied to one employer for 5 years. I have lived all over the world and for many years in Northern Europe, although one may work in some countries jobs go to their own cit. first.
PammyG68 2 years ago
And you are a typical internet loud mouth. Wow, talk about talking about subjects you know nothing about!! I just brought up immigration laws in the countries you mentioned..ALL FALSE. India has a LAW on the books against such. I like ,"Don't talk about shit u don't know." Most countries have figure out that their labor pool IS their economy. You are the one talking out of your ass. You sound like a hubristic millenal who perceives the world as he wants it to be-not as it is.
PammyG68 2 years ago
Is too.
WesSeid 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Lou dobbs is not smarter than all those econimist
jorgenie07 3 years ago
Imagine if everyone has to grow their own food, make their own house. It is the same on the national level, don't be blinded by your nationalism to make that connection. The idea of free trade and comparative advantage are what has built the first world. Yes some will lose jobs in the process(carriage makers lost their jobs to the automotive industry, assemblers lost theirs to robots), but on the whole, everyone gains.
hex6ng 3 years ago
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dconjar 3 years ago
Setting aside lame ideology, Mexico's economy is in horrible condition. Yes, free trade is good, but only under perfect market conditions which have almost erroded. Society can benefit from legal immigration and Dobbs was mentioned that: watch his full interview with Paul Waldman. But an influx of millions of illegal immigrants will hurt any economy and can lead to a partide state. You need to take into account the downward pressure on wages. And yes I also agree with Dobbs on the bailout.
staley1981 3 years ago
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dconjar 3 years ago
Sorry it took me a little while to respond dconjar. I'm glad to see that you're going by science and you see that your American Indian comment was, well, I'm glad you got my point.
There's is much that you and I will agree on, such as no benefits or entitlements for illegal immigrants because that rewards bad behavior.
As far as "healthy immirgation" goes, sorry man, with the current state of the U.S. economy, no kind of immigration is healthy. Just look up California's water crisis.
staley1981 3 years ago
I think it's funny how Lou Dobbs almost always talks about Free Trade as a bad thing; it's been proven to benefit both countries who enter a trade agreement.
MarxPayne337 3 years ago
Really? Where's the proof? Why don't you ask the peasants of Mexico how they feel about NAFTA. Or one of the workers in the US that was displaced because of it. Please explain how free trade with countries who incorporate slave labor is good for the US?
CrisMarlowe 3 years ago
Well, it's good for the U.S. consumer- cheap goods- which increases the purchasing power of Americans. It's good for Mexicans when they open up factories because it gives them jobs, which is more than nothing. Proof: Standard of Living has risen in locations where Mexicans are employed by foreign businesses.
To look at the short run, yes, Americans may lose jobs. However, a successful economy (ask any economist)looks for steady, long term growth. I'm out of characters- I'll be happy to go on.
MarxPayne337 3 years ago
If you'd like me to.
MarxPayne337 3 years ago
I'm affraid you're inconsistent with the facts. Mexico's economy is in the gutter. Make no mistake, I respect the theory of your argument, but that is just not what's happening. You're going under the assumption that businesses will pass on the earnings that they get from cheap foreign labor to the consumer. That hasn't been the case. You also need to take into consideration the impact on wages. What you're saying does hold water, but only in perfect market conditions.
staley1981 3 years ago
There's no doubt that Mexico doesn't have such a great economy, but what I was bringing up was that the standard of living rises, even just a little bit, if people have jobs. Sure, the salary can be extremely low, but some wages are better than no wages. These peope then have money to spend, primarily for food/basic needs, and may eventually go beyond. Sure, it's limited, but if they didn't have jobs, aggregate demand would fall, since they couldn't buy anything.
MarxPayne337 3 years ago
I appreciate the reply Marx. Remember what I was talking about with perfect market conditions? The whole idea is for an economy to thrive in the free market sense. Right now Mexico is on the verge of collapse due to economic conditions and government corruption. Mexico has become too dependent on unilateral tranfers from the U.S. The wages that I was refering to are the ones here in the U.S. A study done at Harvard shows $300 billion dollars in depressed wages. Aggregate demand goes down.
staley1981 3 years ago