Squat Rx #3 (Part II)

[tangram108]

Ah, too much to remember! Oh well, practice makes perfect. Thanks for the great tips!

[carlitos1259]

HI! Is 50-60kg a good weight to begin squats with? If done properly,of course...I am 185cm and have 85kg How long will it be till I reach 100kg?

[MorbidCowboy]

@carlitos1259 If you're a beginner, start with the bar. Form is paramount to prevent injury.

[Zaitsevsz]

You're so well spoken! you really know what you're talking about. Excuse me but where did you get all this knoledge. Simply Amazing!

[wazrasta]

These video's are great! I tend to really feel my quads getting worked when squatting and find it hard to get the glutes and hamstrings firing! This should help a lot.

Thanks

[freejumptraining]

Great video bro!

[Portboy]

Haha, 'well the squat rx guy on youtube told me to do it'.

Awesome stuff, Sensei.

[Pnigro]

What a bunch of idiots. Hamstring involvement in a squat is directly related to technique. Front squats for example will not work the hamstrings as much as properly performed below parallel low bar back squats rising your butt out of the bottom. Hamstrings extend the hip while at the same time quads extend the knees. Hip extension CAN OCCUR without knee flexion otherwise squatting would be impossible lol.

[HeadDominion]

awesome dude, i'm just an ametuer barely lifting 1.2 my body weight.........this makes me more aware of technique.

[secuervo]

where implementation follows studies and execution begets improvements in future studies. I guess what I am saying is don't publish eraser burn diatribe ion someone else's video until you have some callouses on your hands and a few videos of your own.

[secuervo]

American studies all too often use untrained athletes whereas Eastern bloc countries use olympic and professional athletes who have mastered technique. American studies are short and do not track subjects because they are trying to save money. Eastern bloc countries studies extend over many years because their athletes are a source of national pride. They vest themselves in their success. American studies are not implemented, just pondered. Eastern bloc countries have proven track records...

[johnnymnemonic2]

Science or Hairpie, or whatever your name is... please find another video to troll.

[jblaze725]

Keep up with the vids, they're great. You're the only Youtube subscription I have. For all those here arguing his points, get off the computer and go workout.

[Sciencerocksmyworld]

Well the anti hamstring crowd has quoted some quality research data.... the close minded crowd has been to busy being close minded to post anything intelligent back (actually there are a few good comments here and there).

I will quote Dr M Siff (you do seem to like him) -

"do you have any evidence to back up your statement"?

"I am simply asking for some scientific and practical evidence to support your opinion".

I wonder what Mel Siff would think of all this....

[Hairpietime]

Johnny has had some interesting discussion to read as he is certainly educated and experienced (if perhaps close minded to new ideas).

No one has knocked the quality of the videos (they are very good, best i can find on youtube) but perhaps some of the dialoge is not correct...

You other nobodies posting on his behalf with your anti science attitudes, post some evidence of your view or be quiet - the anti hamstring crowd has certainly posted some interesting studies to argue their views.

[killxswitch]

The comments in this video are a great example of why nerds should leave weight lifting alone. You get caught up in the minutia of science, and for what? Are your lifts better after having read these suspect studies?

Thank you for your time and dedication to helping and teaching people, johnny.

[lysergicamine]

The ignorance in this thread from the "study readers" is astounding. I have no doubt that the people they hooked up to a machine showed little hamstring recruitment. Very, very few people actually squat correctly. Even fewer university scientists. It takes a lot of work and practice to activate your hamstrings in your squats, and most never do. Hook up any high level powerlifter to that machine and you will see a much different story.

[sagewindmoon]

I think it would be a good idea for crissyd, steveo and woza to post their OWN squat videos so we can all see exactly where they're coming from. :)

[maistir86]

I had no idea I was rotating my knees inward when squatting. This video has helped my form tremendously. Seems to help me keep my back upright as well. Your videos are great, thank you for posting them Johnny. I've learned quite a bit from your tips and very thorough examinations of what seems to be every squat issue that exists.

[cannibal888]

I once participated in a study at my local university. 95% of the "resistance trained" guys chosen were either fat asses or tiny geeks who had been training for less than 2 years. None of these guys ever did a squat in their entire life.

And you know what? the study consisted in measuring the activity of hamstrings during squats (using an electromyograph), but none of those guys were able to do a sub parallel squat. So much for all your studies crissy and al.

By the way, good job johnny.

[Hairpietime]

Emg studies in this area are close to useless, to many large muscles to close together to get a accurate and independent muscle reading.

[wildeyed]

The posterior chain (glutes/hams/lowback) has the potential for obsene strength gains, whereas the quadriceps do not. Thus it is the goal of a powerlifter to maximally train the posterior chain.

When you squat with an arched back, more vertical shins, and follow all of the advice given in this video, torque on the hips increases and torque on the knee is reduced so greatly that thi quadriceps can handle the extra antogonist resistance generated by increased hamstring involvement.

[wildeyed]

The studies do not mean much because they are conducted on novices, and not experienced lifters.

An experienced powerlifter knows how to squat in a way that maximizes hamstring involvement and minimizes quadriceps involvement. I don't doubt that a novice won't be able to recruit more than 15% hamstrings. However, when you understand torque and leverage and the mechanics of the squat, you have a great control over muscular involvement.

[Hairpietime]

mmmm, "minimize quadriceps involvement" thats certainly going to help extend the knee and straighten your legs.

And more than a few of these studies use well trained individuals because the researchers aren't all stupid and realize novice to well trained is a different realm.

[wildeyed]

I could just as easily say that the rectus femoris (quadriceps) can't possibly be active during a squat because it is an antagonist to hip extension. It's bad logic.

[Sciencerocksmyworld]

Actually research does show that rec fem is not highly active throughout the squatting action.

[Stumprrp]

you all need to stop arguing because sensei is stronger, smarter, and a better coach then you. BS the hamstrings arent actived, i wouldnt of torn mine!

[chrissyd7187]

CSA of the Vasti and Adductor muscle groups were increased 10 and 5%, respectively, immediately after exercise in each thigh with no changes in Ham and RF CSA. PV was decreased 22% immediately following exercise. The absolute loss of PV was correlated (r2 = 0.75) with absolute increase in muscle CSA immediately postexercise, supporting the notion that increased muscle size after resistance exercise reflects primarily fluid movement from the vascular space into active but not inactive muscle.

[johnnymnemonic2]

Chrissy,

What that study had to do with anything, I do not know... Do you think that Mel Siff, et. al write books without doing literature reviews of hundreds of "peer reviewed" research?

LAST TIME to say this: please spend some more time in the squat racks and reading stuff by Siff, Simmons, Tate, Dreschler, etc.

[chrissyd7187]

Just another article to read, another PEER REVIEWED article

Ploutz-Snyder LL, Convertino VA, Dudley GA 1995 Resistance exercise-induced fluid shifts: change in active muscle size and plasma volume.American Journal of Physiology. Sep;269(3 Pt 2):R536-43.

[chrissyd7187]

i think ill stick to my stiff legged deadlifts for hamstrings hypertrophy. much much better stimulus thankyou.

[petererhard]

You people are mad! If hamstrings were not involved, it would be impossible to avoid and straighten out the good morning in the bottom of the squat. Hamstrings are less involved the closer the stance and the shorter ROM you use but in the lower part of the full squat they work for full capacity.

[chrissyd7187]

also i would like to note that, IF hamstrings are active, it is nowhere near the amount you offer. They are active to only 10-15% (Tesch 1999), and so would not be at all able to hypertrophy, due to insufficient firing rates and neural drive to activiate the Type IIb muscle fibres that respond to these high (at least 75%) levels of activation under high levels of force.

[chrissyd7187]

James W. Youdas, John H. Hollman, James R. Hitchcock, Gregory J. Hoyme and Jeremiah J. Johnsen. 2007: Comparison of Hamstring and Quadriceps Femoris Electromyographic Activity Between Men and Women During a Single-Limb Squat on Both a Stable and Labile Surface. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 21, No. 1, pp. 105--111. FAULT - THE SUBJECTS WERE UNTRAINED AND SO HAD A "DODGY" NERVOUS SYSTEM

[chrissyd7187]

OK Ive been following this in great detail since first finding your squat rx series. i have looked thru some of the nsca articles.

GLENN A. WRIGHT, THOMAS H. DELONG and GALE GEHLSEN. 1999: Electromyographic Activity of the Hamstrings During Performance of the Leg Curl, Stiff-Leg Deadlift, and Back Squat Movements. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 13, No. 2, pp. 168--174. = SIGNIFICANTLY LESS HAMSTRING ACTIVITY IN SQUAT COMPARED TO QUADS.

[TehNoxon]

Cont 2: Lastly, if you guys watch the entire Squat Rx series from start to finish this video will make a lot more sense in the overall context of things. The focus of Squat Rx #3 (This video) is very narrow and it is only one part of a 13 part series.

[TehNoxon]

Cont: It is about teaching your neurological system to contract your hip extensors at the right time during the squat to maximize drive and extension. If you guys just put down the studies, picked up a barbell and started squatting as much weight as you physically can move this would all become more apparent. It's about being the best squatter you can be. That's all. Good luck with your studies...

[TehNoxon]

You guys are missing the point. This video is all about correcting a common problem with people not recruiting their glutes and hamstrings during the squat. It isn't to say that the squat should be prescribed as a hamstring exercise or that the squat is primarily a hamstring exercise.

[stevo171717]

Its quite funny that you harp on about how right you are, yet a study you tell us to read DEFINITIVELY contradicts your argument. Books are written by someone expressing their opinion- they do not need references nor need evidence to back what they claim. Its a pity your ignorance towards others in your field has hindered your ability to learn from others. Perhaps an open mind wont do you much harm either.

[johnnymnemonic2]

You know what's funny? With the exception of giggles, ALL of you that are chiming in agreeing with him registered an account on youtube the day of your first post to this video. My guess is that you are all trolls who may or may not know each other. Feel free to find some other place to troll and complain about me.

[johnnymnemonic2]

You know what else is funny?

Escamilla et al. (2) compared hamstring activity of squats, leg press, and knee extension exercises. Results reveal that the squat generated twice as much hamstring electromyographic (EMG) activity as the leg press and knee extension. Thus, squats seem to be a superior hamstring training stimulus compared with other lower-body exercises that include knee extension

[johnnymnemonic2]

Quoted from:

The Role of the Back Squat as a Hamstring Training Stimulus

William P. Ebben, MS, MSSW, CSCS, *D, and David H. Leigh,

MS, ATC

Marquette University

Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Randall L. Jensen, PhD

Northern Michigan University

Marquette, MI

[johnnymnemonic2]

Goodbye.

[woza8686]

yes i know the hamstrings are hip extensors, but they are also knee flexors, how can the hamstrings which pass the hip and knee joint only contract at one of the 2? if the hamstrings were active hip extension would occur AND knee flexion, you can't have one or the other. Your eather contracting the muscle or not contracting it, if you were the knee would flex and you slam to the ground

[woza8686]

how does what you quoted from the study back up your argument? it claims the emg was twice the amount in squats than leg press, twice the amount meaning 4% active insted of 2% active? yes its twice but still nothing! it calimed squats generated more hamstring emg than knee extension, which is a quad exercise!! if you actually compared hamstring squatting emg to a proper hamstring exercise, say leg curl the emg levels in the squat would be around 10 times less at best

[TBU21]

Johny, what's the name of that low cable/pulley deadlift called (the one Chuck Vogelpohl of WSB came up with)?

[johnnymnemonic2]

CV deadlifts.

[omers66]

hey, u said that shins should be vertical to the floor for engaging the hams & gluts best, but im sure that i squat with weight like u squated in 1:46 i will fall back...wont you too?

[johnnymnemonic2]

Just do the best you can. My knees track forward a little when squatting. With box squats, it's a little easier to line things up - I talk more about box squats in Squat Rx #13.

[omers66]

tnx

i would really appreciate if you give your thought on my squat technique, u can see it over my videos here on youtube (cant post direct url)...if u have time...tnx

[johnnymnemonic2]

I posted some comments to your video Omers. Thanks for checking out the videos here.

[woza8686]

The people inolved in the studies posted by giggles have phd's. I just wonder why you would go against there years and years of study in the area. This is their job to do studies and get the facts right. Johnny that nsca study u mentioned, you need to subscribe to it and the abstract won't load so i can't access it.

[johnnymnemonic2]

woza,

My intention was that you just do a general google search for 'nsca squat hamstring' and see what comes up.

I hate to say this AGAIN, but you are aware that the hamstrings act as a HIP EXTENSOR, right?... You understand that when you have a concurrent movement, like the squat, where the knee and hip are both working at the same time, that the contraction of the hamstrings to extend the hip also works to activate knee extension.... I mean, I just assume you do....

[johnnymnemonic2]

I realize you already said that you are studying exercise science and it might be a hard pill to swallow that you are wrong on this, but you are. Instead of pounding on the table, insisting that we aren't paying attention, spend some time learning how to squat and broaden your reading list a little.

[Hairpietime]

After reading the studies that were posted at the start is seems Woza and co, are quite well read. The nsca review you mentioned actually states that hamstrings do very little in the squat - even with a flawed emg technique.

The Tesch study - showed clearly that the hamstrings were minimally active 5%-10% tops of mvc.

Maybe you should put your pride to the side a little and read these with an open mind.

[Hairpietime]

"contraction of the hamstrings to extend the hip also works to activate knee extension".

I'm having trouble picturing this, you're saying a knee FLEXOR can cause EXTENSION, simply because it causes flexion at the hip joint?

Am I missing some weird logic here?

[johnnymnemonic2]

It's not "weird logic", the hamstrings are a hip extensor. Look it up.

[woza8686]

You claim if the hamstrings don't engage you will be sitting on the floor, infact when you are at the bottom of a squat, if you engage the hamstrings you will hit the floor, the hamstrings flex the knee not extend it! Were not trying so say johnny's video is bad, or he has no idea about anything, infact he goes over things very well, were trying to correct him on one of the most common mistakes in weight lifting. Thats squatting and hamstrings.

[ddegroff23]

Wow all of you guys really need to pick up a Kinsiology book and study closed chain vs. open chain. You'll find how wrong you are. Just trying to help johnny!

[woza8686]

I don't know what else to say to help set you in the rite direction. If you are still not understanding perhaps you might want to invest in a set of emg leads, hook them up to your hamstrings and measure the hamstring activity while squatting, if you don't get any signal there not broken its just because there isn't any!

[bearwolfden]

Actually, the problem with Woza and Stevo are that they are quarter-squatters! They have never gone past parallel in the squat to know how the glutes and hamstrings get involved pulling you out of the hole. Try it guys and you will feel it. Otherwise, stick to your 1/4 squats and smith machine squats, b/c you really are hurting the people who want to learn how to squat correctly and efficiently.

[bearwolfden]

Also, Johnny is not avocating that squatting is the only or best exercise for the hamstrings. What he is saying is that the hamstrings and glutes play a vital role in squatting and learning how to properly engage them will improve your squat form, prevent injuries and increase your strength dramatically!

[bearwolfden]

And even if you read the research you have posted, you would realize that the although the hamstring is engaged less then the quadricep, that it still HAS TO engage to actually perform the squat. If your hamstrings or glutes do not engage, then you will be sitting on the floor - permanently.

[bearwolfden]

And if you want research, I dare you to read Dreschler, Zatsiorsky, Rippitoe, Simmons and Siff.

[woza8686]

bearwolfden your education is coming from where? You have some sort of university degree in this industry? if you did you would know that in fact when you squat deeper its not your hamstrings you think you feel its your adductors you are feeling. The hamstring emg is so minimal, if there is even any at all and no hypertrophy of the hamstrings will occur by squatting. We arn't talking about glutes we know they are used.

[Hairpietime]

you do realize that anyone can publish a book?

and you do realize that peer reviewed literature has been closely scrutinized by experts in that feild to ensure that the methods of testing and what not were not flawed?

i thought not.

I'll stick with the literature Woza and co mentioned.

[johnnymnemonic2]

Well, I wouldn't consider the people I've mentioned (Siff, Zatsiorsky, Simmons, Dreschler, Rippitoe, etc.) just "anyone", but ok...

[secuervo]

It is quite typical for you arm chair lifters to question experience. Studies never capture anything more than idealism. Where the facts lie is in execution and experience. If you posted one video that proved your studies made a better squatter than you would change the world. A salient error in your claims is the use of what are most likely American studies. I think if you look into the Eastern bloc research you will see the claims Johnny makes repeated in research...

[woza8686]

...There is not one scientific study to support hamstrings being used in a squat, but there are an abundance of studies to show they are not used. People are trying to help you for your benifit so replying in such arrogance is unnecessary. Perhaps read the studies provided and realise you may have gotten it wong.

[woza8686]

well is seems we have a debate about the "hamstrings" being active in a squat. I am studying exercise science and am more than happy to clear this up. To be strait foward to the point the hamstrings are NOT active in a squat. chrissyd7187 is correct in what he is saying. Muscles pull not push, if you are at the bottom of a squat and if the hamstrings were activated in squatting it would promote knee flexion and hip extension so you would slam strait into the ground. Stevo171717 and...

[johnnymnemonic2]

You need to do more studying woza. I am absolutely bewildered by the ignorance you three display. I am not above questioning or criticism, but the bravado with which you display your ignorance of squatting is remarkable.

I am not going to get into a research-slinging match because it would be pointless. Do a google search for nsca squat hamstring and see what turns up. Read everything thoroughly with an open mind.

Good luck in squatting and in your studies.

[stevo171717]

Johnny theres such minimal activity in the hamstrings (5-15%) during a squat that it is inconceivable why someone would prescribe a squat to train the hamstrings... and as i have said there is evidence that this activity decreases further as the CNS becomes more efficient. Even rec fem isnt properly active in a squat because of its 2 opposing actions in a squat, like the 3 hamstring muscles (excluding short head of bi fem).

[johnnymnemonic2]

Stevo et. al,

Part of the problem is that you seem to have locked yourself into a agonist/antagonist point of view rather than looking at a synergistic whole and concurrent movement. The hamstrings serve more functions than simply a knee flexor.

[johnnymnemonic2]

I have suggested that you read Mark Rippitoe. I have suggested that you seek out Louie Simmons. I have suggested that you search nsca squat hamstring on google. I will suggest now that you read Dreschler, Zatsiorsky, and Siff.

I am very confident that if you spent much time at all with these, you would not be wasting everyone's time with ridiculous statements like "the hamstrings are not activated when squatting".

[johnnymnemonic2]

As confident as I am that you would learn a great deal if you sought out those, I am equally confident that you will NOT read any of these and continue posting worthless diatribe and extrapolations in an attempt to discredit me.

Good bye.

[stevo171717]

I understand that- perhaps i havent made my argument clear. I believe that there is no where near sufficient activation of the hamstrings in a squat to justify the squat being prescribed to train the hamstrings. And all im after from you is some evidence of your theories- what do you base your theories on? Not trying to have a crack at you, just a constructive argument. Perhaps we are both right...

[chrissyd7187]

In my opinion, if hamstrings were active during a squat, and their actions include knee flexion and hip extension, wouldnt you end up driving your arse into the ground if they were active???

[johnnymnemonic2]

No. I'm going to simplify things here, but think of the hamstrings as resisting the weight as you lower the weight and flex the hips and knees and then pulling the legs back and extending the hips as you rise out of the hole.

[johnnymnemonic2]

Monkey,

I'm really sorry that you don't have a squat rack at your gym. My recommendation (and I'm not trying to be an unsympathetic boob) would be to try really hard to find a new gym or invest in a power rack and barbell. Without proper a proper squat rack, you will always be greatly limited in how heavy you will be able to squat.

[johnnymnemonic2]

Oh giggles... you are a funny one! Last time I checked the muscles involved in hip/leg extension are the bicep femoris, semimembranosus, semitendinosis, aductor magnus, and glutes...

I'm curious what research you are referring to and, if it exists, who the test subjects were.

Maybe you should do a bit of squatting...?

[giggleloves]

Yes these muscles do that -- but don't forget that the hamstring group of muscles also cause knee flexion.

Ok, here's some fairly decent research to show that the hamstrings are not active during the squat, some of it more than ten years old. It's certainly not uncommon for people to believe that hamstrings are active during the squat.

Per A. Tesch PhD "Target Bodybuilding" Human Kinetics 1999 - MRI data showing that bicep femoris - semitendonusis are not active during the squat.

[giggleloves]

L.L. Ploutz-snyder, V.A. Cnvertino and G.A. Dudley (1995) resistance exercise-induced fluid shifts: change in active muscle size and plasma volume. Am J Physiol Regulatory Integrative Comp Physiol 269:536-543. -This study showed that there was no change in cross sectional (from plasma shift) in the hamstrings during squatting -- no plasma shift means NO activity in this muscle group. Also Rectus femoris (quads) displayed no change.

[giggleloves]

A.G. Enocson, H.G. Berg, R. Vagus, G. Jenner and T.A. Tesch (2005) Signal intensity of MRI-images of thigh muscles following acute open -- and closed chain kinetic knee extensor exercise -- index of muscle use. Eur J Applied Physiol 94: 357-363. - This study yet again shows that there was no hamstring activity during leg press. Got a few more but can't be currently motivated to type out the references.

[stevo171717]

couldnt agree more giggleloves... i have another study by Carolan & Cafarelli 1992 that showed even though there was some very slight activation of hamstrings in a sqaut, after 1 weeks training the EMG activity measured of the hamstrings had decreased by 20%... another example that hamstrings are not used in squats

[johnnymnemonic2]

Even though the two of you are WAY OFF in your interpretation of research, I'm glad you're here because it makes me think about WHY you are so way off... The point you should take from Carolan & Cafarelli is not that you don't use the hamstrings, but that it is common for trainees to squat in a way (develop poor motor patterns) that doesn't recruit them... Poor glute and hamstring activation is WELL DOCUMENTED. Look into it and come back.

[stevo171717]

Also last time i checked leg extension activated the quads but you forgot to mention that... or did you mean hip extension? Perhaps a touch up on your terminology and an understanding of what muscles are active during certain actions might come in handy. Also, its pronounced se-me-mem-bra-no-sus, not se-me-mem-brane-us. An if you wanna get real picky, its only glut max and med that are used in a squat- glut min is an abductor.

[johnnymnemonic2]

Steve,

I thought it was pretty clear in THE TITLE that the focus of this segment was "Engaging the Glutes & Hamstrings", not the quads...

No, I said leg/hip extension and meant it. Recheck your trainer's anatomy book or whatever you are reading...

[stevo171717]

I know the title, but the inference you made was that leg extension does not involve the quads and for someone without much knowledge using your vid as a learning tool they could think squats dont use quads which is obviously untrue. And to prove my point you dont read up much the carolan and cafarelli study didnt even use squats but isometric MVCs- ive got a question for you: why would the nervous system decrease the neural drive to a muscle in a certain action as a training adaptation?

[johnnymnemonic2]

Wow. I made no such inference - of course the quads are involved!!

The scary thing is that I believe you might actually be a trainer or someone that people will listen to... Please stick to machines because if you are teaching anyone to squat, they are going to hurt themselves if they ever go heavy following your instruction.

[stevo171717]

OK- find yourself a subject (untrained so they have the greatest growth potential), get an MRI of their hamstrings for an indication of their cross sectional area, get them to do squats for 16-20 weeks (with training intensities you prescribe)then get another MRI and see how much hypertrophy has occurred.

Secondly could you please post the references you used Re. the first section of the video in question.

Thirdly could you please answer the question i asked in the previous blog.

[johnnymnemonic2]

Stevo,

You're starting to irritate me. I've coached quite a few athletes believe it or not and I'm a reasonably adept squatter. Feel free to introduce yourself.

References regarding what?

I did answer it, but apparently it wasn't clear enough for you - if you are doing an isometric maximal knee extension, the antagonists are going to be trained to release. That has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with a squat.

[johnnymnemonic2]

It is clear to me that you are nothing but a troll with a little reading under his belt. Do you squat? Do you really believe that hamstrings are not a major mover when squatting? If you truly believe that and are unwilling or unable to listen to reason, I am done with you. As I said before, please contact Louie Simmons and share your thoughts on hamstring recruitment while squatting and see how he reacts.

Feel free to PM me if you have anything constructive to say.

[stevo171717]

Just simply putting to you that the literature says different to what you say and im after some idea on where you get your info and thus far your rebuttals consist of putdowns and no substantial evidence. Im far less experienced than you Re. coaching- i do squat (front/back) and the only area i have felt anything when squatting is in the area where the hamstring part of adductor magnus attaches- a hip extensor.

[johnnymnemonic2]

Again, if you had come to the table with curiosity and an open-mind, I'd be more than willing to share. Starting off w. corrections of pronunciation and suggestions that I'm pulling everything out of thin air won't get very far with me.

[stevo171717]

Then where are you pulling it from?

[johnnymnemonic2]

I just PMed you. Have you read "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippitoe? Didn't think so. Read it instead of research abstracts and you might actually learn a thing or two about lifting...

[johnnymnemonic2]

btw, if you had been around a subject for most of your life and someone demanded resources and citations everytime you made a statement, would you be able to cite a specific source for every fact and piece of knowledge?

[stevo171717]

of course you cant cite a specific source, thats the point of doing research for christs sake to prove or disprove theories- alot of ppls training techniques and beliefs are based on what they think, not what is known. Just coz you get sore round the hammies from squats does not mean its the hammies that are sore. You have become so set in your ways that any evidence going against what you believe has to be wrong.

[johnnymnemonic2]

Wow Steve... just wow.. I didn't say I had no sources. Good luck to you and Giggles.

[stevo171717]

to many ppl in this world just believe what others say because they lack knowledge on a topic and take it for granted the person they learn from knows what they're talkin bout- ppl have started challenging what you think and you have comeback with the square root of stuff all. Do some of your own reasearch and dont take what others say as being correct all the time as i firmly believe your knowledge base has come from ppl who have theories and not any evidence to back those theories up.

[giggleloves]

I'm still waiting for scientific based evidence that the hamstrings contribute to the squat.

I've put up one laymans resource and 2 peer reviewed articles that show indisputable evidence in our favour, but my own searches through medline, pubmed and sportsdiscus have failed to find evidence in your favor.

I shall have a look at the book after the weekend.

[stevo171717]

Point of the study showed that when co-activation occurs, the adaptation is to decrease the neural drive, which is what i believe occurs in hamstrings when squatting based on the literature i have read- im just challenging what you think and it appears you dont like it: tunnel vision will get you knowhere. I may enhance my knowledge out of this argument so how bout some proper info from you ey.

[johnnymnemonic2]

Nice backpedaling... Suddenly, you think you might learn something? I don't mind questioning, but challenging someone is probably not the best way to get them to open up wholeheartedly to you...

[johnnymnemonic2]

...and just so you don't think I didn't or couldn't answer your question - obviously the hamstrings act as a antagonist to the quads/knee extensors. If you are doing an isometric MVC, why would you need any hamstring activation at all? Not sure what that has to do with a squat but... If you'd like we can continue this discussion via PM.

[johnnymnemonic2]

Well, I'm impressed that you actually have references... I haven't read Tesch's book so I can't intelligently comment. Other than that I don't know what to tell you except that if you truly believe that the squat does not involve the hamstrings, you don't know squat...

[johnnymnemonic2]

Seriously, talk to any serious powerlifter - if you tell them that a squat does not involve the hamstrings, they will laugh in your face. Take a trip to Westside Barbell and tell Louie that they're wasting their time doing all that GHR work and GMs...

[giggleloves]

Yes I have talked to a few serious lifters and yes, many do think that the squat is a solid contirbuter in a squatting action.

So because these people think that it is it must be? despite so much scientific evidence (most of it fairly new, ie. last few years).

[giggleloves]

Numerous mri and ecg evidence has proven that hamstrings are NOT ACTIVE in the squat.

Muscles will tend to enforce all of its actions when activated. This means the hamstrings will force knee

flexion... not something you want with squats.

The adductor's are what you are feeling as they insert the posterior surface of the femur - much the same area as hamstrings - you are feeling adductor's and not hamstrings during the squat.

Maybe you should do a bit of research...?

[dexbot]

I want tree-trunk legs like you.

[steveabode]

I'd like to second these others, but i'll have to settle for 4th!!! Truly a grand teacher, I'd like to embed these clips on my Track & Field club website (westsuffolkac . co. uk) in the throws section- I think your excellent manner and calm approach is great, no shouting! Certainly an under-rated quantity is squats- for throwers all of the power comes from the legs and your series johnnymneumonic2 is a toe to thigh feast!!! Thanks, Steve

[johnnymnemonic2]

Thank you very much Steve!

[rls669]

Great series, much appreciated.

[duba3988]

I wish so too, you are a fantastic coach, thank god for youtube so we can at least see what to strive for.

[johnnymnemonic2]

Thanks Pete. Thanks Duba. It's very motivating to hear nice things like that - I appreciate it!