Conversations: Episode 18 w/ pdballiet - Eros and Agape in a Self-Loving Cosmos (part 1-2)

[GeorgeCottier]

This is fucking amazing.

[patternsinchaos]

Venus conjuncts Saturn in about 30 minutes... he he

[MaBu888]

Venus conjunxit Saturnum in minutos 30. Hahahae

[IceysMoment]

YES!!

i been waiting for new holons-vids:))

jippi to wake up to again..

[5jeanbittersweet]

Isn't Song of Songs from the Bible about Eros etc. and a Rabbi that taught at college said it did relate to God, but I can't remember how now?, of course Maya or desire does have to be reigned in in the Bhagavid Gita..anyway this topic rambled around a bit,, I like the story of Layla & Majnun myself but it is never, well lets just say it's transcended..ha

[Monolith1618]

The Buddhist Monk Thich Nhat Hanh uses an interesting metaphor for suffering. He says you cannot grow a lotus flower on marble, you have to grow it in the mud. He believes suffering is necessary for compassion and understanding.

The important thing is to be aware of your suffering. You can sit in school all day long and learn nothing. You have to absorb and later analyze the information.

His opinion, but I'd dare enough to say it's generally true.

- Peace

[jedimasterbooboo]

I just mentioned this in a video, that there is no mention of eros in the Bible, only agape. Mathfails question about why God would allow himself to feel a lack is a great one and the answer is pretty extensive, it's the universal issue.

[SFFSMESSiah777]

desire = emotion contingent on experience. in coming to terms with conscious emotion, we recognize our oneness with existence, which affects our actions as we react to our surroundings. desire = emotion = existence = perfection. our acknowledgement of anything brings us closer to truth. the realization of reality lets us know our position in the great creation we all make up. everything is beautiful and so creates the foundation for our wonder. eros therefore is absorbed by an encompassing agape

[Sueezedtight]

Love is a universal principle that has been adopted planetarily.

Universal love is the equivocation of sharing. Planetary love is the link between egos that allows them to empathize.

UL allows for hive mentalities and peaceful coexistence.

PL provides for the veneration of self while accepting the pre-eminence of the other.

Total subjugation through intimation.

The Christic aspect, brotherly love, is the connection between both.

Combined with will and intelligence, it allows stability.

[HaleyMary]

deep/unconditional love is something I think that isn't even covered in most religions at least the Christian ones. The Hebrew deity acted too insecure for it to love the humans it supposedly created.

[ORz42]

unconditional ever-wanking, as it were.

[calebnf]

Nice, Andrew Bird.

[plutodrvv]

Love goes beyond male-female configuration. The philosophies you speak of have a heterosexist slant. Heterosexism is not homophobia per se but it does presume that male-female is the only 'reasonable' or 'valid' configuration of sexual relationships. As if no other love could exist i.e. same-sex partners. Perhaps homosexual relationships are just as needed for human survival in that these relations do not produce offspring. My lack of children, offers less competition to your children. Yes?

[5jeanbittersweet]

except that many homosexuals do have children..nevertheless the relationship is equally valid..there is no need to justify it.

[MaBu888]

Masculinity and femininity are not heterosexual, although some men and women are... me thinks.

[chasermartinsyde]

Booooooooooooooooo...!!!!

[trick0171]

A polar bear dying a horrible death after struggling to survive for hours is poignant and beautiful?? - what a warped and anti-empathetic sense of beauty. I guess this nutjob would have to experience the same type of fate as the polar bear for his view to change, because he obviously has no ability to comprehend suffering.

[MaBu888]

You have misunderstood him :)

[trick0171]

I sure hope so. Maybe it was just a VERY bad example on his part. That can happen in dynamic conversations I suppose. :)

[MaBu888]

I actually did have a dichotomic reaction to that polar bear example. But I think he ascribed an ever-resent beauty that was one with that moment... It came out as it did :)

[trick0171]

I have no idea what "ever-resent beauty" means. Beauty is an entirely psychological bias. It depends on a mind. So if he means some other kind of beauty independent of his or another persons mind , I will not "get it".

[MaBu888]

It was his beauty. And mine. But not the beauty you Think.

[trick0171]

Definitely not the "beauty" I Think :)

[MaBu888]

Beauty is not the same as the thoughts thereof, right.

[trick0171]

Beauty does not exist independent of thoughts. Something is not inherently beautiful, ugly, bad smelling, gross, bad tasting, delicious, etc.

[MaBu888]

I know that. I'm saying beauty is different from thoughts, although the same brain facilitates these manifest/emergent attributes of consciousness.

[trick0171]

Please excuse my ignorance, but I am not sure what you mean by "different from thoughts". Different how? Isn't the "manifest/emergent attributes of consciousness" thought?

[MaBu888]

Thoughts and emotions are distinct, but emotions aren't thoughts. Emotions are emotions. But there probably is a larger category for what both emotions and thought are... brain activity.

[trick0171]

Ah, gotcha. To avoid confusion we will use "mental process", because this is what I meant. And for ones idea of "beauty" it is usually a specific psychological mental process brought about by that individuals experience and memories. I, for example, find no "beauty" in another animal suffering. I find it just the opposite - I find it a repulsive aspect of nature (because of my empathy).

[MaBu888]

I'm sure the guy on the left in that video actually reacts similarly to suffering in all forms. It is his specific poetic rhetoric that has an affinity that is most unusual. So yeah, mental process, yes. A larger whole than a mind is a bodymind, and even larger is a social memory complex, AKA community of midn, once a form of telepathy emerges, due to technology or biology and or psychology.

[trick0171]

Agreed. :)

I guess I'm just not a fan of poetic rhetoric being injected into philosophy. Poetry has it's place, but it only serves to cause confusion when analyzing philosophical concepts. In this particular case, I believe it to be spreading a harmful meme as well.

[MaBu888]

I'm not sure I see the dying polar bear meme spreading... but it did to pdballiet... :) That is a little humorous.

[trick0171]

LOL

As a determinist, I think every thought that is put out there (especially to an audience) has a meme effect. The ideas that dilute suffering, or project that the universe is "perfect" or "beautiful", help to keep blinders on regarding real problems. I don't attribute any one idea (such as the Polar Bear) to this, but rather groups of supporting ideas (such as the Polar Bear) to larger meme sets.

[MaBu888]

I would indeed agree that meme effects are obviously real. Though in this case, the beauty and perfection is meant in spite of, but not excluding, suffering. It is about attitudes and the change of perspective in a healthy way. Otherwise it would indeed be a mindless (such a pun) and stupid meme. :)

[trick0171]

That is the part I find bothersome - that one can consider suffering part of (let alone anywhere near) the ideas of beauty and perfection they have. I do not find this a healthy attitude at all.

[MaBu888]

What I mean by the proximity of beauty and suffering, is once one is transmuted, the other arises.

[pdballiet]

mabu, you got me. yes. it is a love beyond and including the suffering. let us not make a pre-trans fallacy (trick0171)

[pdballiet]

@trick0171

I think you misunderstand me here. I believe you are making a pre trans fallacy. I do not mean that the polar bear dying of hunger is beautiful in some abstract suburban way that avoids "real problems."

What I mean is more along the lines of ken wilber saying that you have to understand the entire world is perfect first, and ONLY THEN can you begin to go about changing it. You can only begin to love absent desire, need, will, or seeing that the beloved is worthy or in need of love.

[pdballiet]

oo, i like this conversation.

what i mean by the polar bear being beautiful, is that no one feels pain but Godhead. and thus we are all suffering (ultimate empathy) but because it is us and for eternity, then it is beautiful in the infinity of love.

you see me now, or is this still too poetical?

[pdballiet]

ken wilber:

'the paradox is, is that you first have to realize and feel deep down that everything in the world, indeed the world itself, is perfect. and then, from that realization, you then have to work effortlessly to change it!'

and

'work but do not be attached to the fruits of your work'

(both of these quotes speak to the kind of love that encompasses suffering in its cocoon)

[MaBu888]

This is clear enough, thanks!

[trick0171]

@pdballiet,

That helps me understand the perspective you are addressing (so thanks), but at the same time I think "transpersonal states" are illusionary. Still it helps to know that this is where you are coming from, though for the rationalist such as myself it appears a contrivance and "too poetic" to be in the realm of any serious philosophy.

(MORE)

[trick0171]

It would be my guess that many others would make the pre-trans fallacy with the scenario you gave, as the "trans" part is not immediately obvious.

Thanks,

Trick

[MaBu888]

Non-vignette auras!

[DoNotGod]

So it's OK for me to hope you get gored by a walrus? ... and die on the beach being mocked by a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? consider it done, you people are too loopy to live.

[WhirlingWolves]

@DoNotGod

Hey gary I gots me a question which has been bothering me for awhile which is this:

How many tards would a fucktard fuck if a fucktard could fuck tards?

[bobstheking]

All the solar system is heating up,not just us.

[hyperseauton]

I like Phil taking notes, the lecturing tone and the passion. Takez lots of energy.

I like Matt's compassion and Jon's somewhat openly skepticism of the voice of the teacher.

[TheObnubilators]

i"m having a very hard time sorting out what is a metaphor and what is not, in pdballiets speech. A lot of fluff.

[MaBu888]

Pdballiet tries to something translinguistic.

[SavvyDrifter]

I would say that there must be a balance to all things. Without pain, heartache, sorrow, and strife the good is just not as good as you would have hoped.

It's easy to say that everything is perfect as it is... if you're not the bear dying on the beach from a mortal wound given to you by your pray.