Re: Mike Huckabee: Is America A Theocracy?

[MrAbolitionist]

Someone watch huckabee's response, he absolutely refuted the idea that we should be a theocracy

[bloomingdedalus]

@MrAbolitionist He's full of shit - he's part of the theocratic dominionist agenda aimed at instilling monarchy over the United States.

[MrAbolitionist]

@bloomingdedalus you sound like glenn beck

[bloomingdedalus]

@MrAbolitionist I don't think Glenn Beck is against the dominionist agenda to instill pseudo-theocratic monarchy over America - the church has been working towards this goal for the past 50 years and they're not going to let some stoner sitting on his ass get in their way. Glenn Beck would like nothing more than for the Police of America to be enforcing the religious edicts of the "Apostles" and "Prophets" of Evangelical fundamentalists which the Dominionists are installing as shadow monarchs.

[MrAbolitionist]

@bloomingdedalus I mean you sound like a conspiracy nut, which glenn beck is often accused of being.

[bloomingdedalus]

@MrAbolitionist Look up the following "Dominionism," "Kingdom Theology," "The New Apostolic Reformation," and "Seven Mountains of Culture."

On YouTube look up "Seven Mountains of Culture Wasilla Assembly" to see this organization speaking about their government overthrow plans at Sarah Palin's Church. This is an openly advocated conspiracy - you just don't know about it because you haven't looked it up. They're not hiding it anywhere but in plain sight.

[aantill]

"The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

-Thomas Jefferson

[jessie74]

What's funny is he is supported by Chuck Norris....a man who has been kicked in the head so many times that Jesus is now real to him.

[NY2216]

Lunch, you're awesome man. Good video.

[Tony63efc]

I think if he could get the chance to say this again he would equate atheists who live a good life with christians who are not true to their faith.

[gwengoad]

Hey I have been a non believer my whole adult life, and good question! How does a non believer stay true to his non belief? Am I expected to stay way from churches? Play grounds? Report to the police that I live near schools? How does a good atheist live in a cave? Huckabee, open mouth insert foot! 20 million of us at last count!

[theweakarefree]

Jefferson did not "establish the separation of church and state".

The Supreme court in the 20th century invented this idea by taking that phrase out of a letter that Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists ASSURING THE DANBURY BAPTISTS THAT THEIR RIGHT OF FREE EXERCISE OF RELIGION WOULD NEVER BE INFRINGED.

Google "Danbury Baptists" and learn something about history, idiot.

[hahayouarefunny]

I like that you responded to Huckabee's video; it would be interesting to see how you would respond to the Democratic candidates' responses as well.

[hahayouarefunny]

I'm pretty confident that Huckabee knows that the founders were predominantly Deistic. It seems like he dances around this fact so that his answer would still have more appeal to Christians who would like to see more religion in government.

[hahayouarefunny]

I thought the "living like atheists" concept was peculiar as well.

[mdshwekey]

Don't you understand what Mike is telling you?? he's saying exactly what you are - that the same way the fathers were religion-inspired and that inspiration led them to separate church and state, so is Mike himself riligion-inspired to protect your right to live any way you want to!!! it is so simple.

[keefeg]

"separation of church and state" is not part of any legal or official document in the US. it appeared in a letter from TJ to a Baptist Minister friend on January 1st 1802. Most people think that separation of church and state is real and it is law but that simply isnt true.

[292live]

JSResponds: It was never my intent to argue that America was to have one form of Christianity as its "official" religion, but that American government was never intended to be "freed from" Christianity or any other religion. Government is not to force people to go to church, worship in a certain way, or believe a certain theology. On the other hand, it is not to be devoid of any reference to the divine.

[JSResponds]

The government only references the divine in a non-binding, personal opinion stance. That is My point. No religion is a part of the US government, should not be, and never was established by it.

[dwigg1975]

Some of the founding fathers were deist, most were strong Christians. The 2 terms (Diest, Christians)were interchangeable(Look at the Maxims of Washington written 1856). 2nd Jefferson had nothing to do w/ Establishment clause. The phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution. But the establishment clause was made law in 1952 in the case Brown vs Board of Education as a precedent. The constitution lets religion flourish and Government to stay out of it.

[infinitydm]

Just guessing from the context of the Huckabee video, I think he meant he respects Athiests who live "good" life as christianity defines it (give to charity and don't lie, cheat or steal), over self proclaimed christians who are hippocrites.

[magaz82]

ZACH MY BOY!!!

[TheBigLebbowski]

Yeah mostly true, I'm having problems grasping what a deist is. There were only a few Christians in there, I think just George Washington, and someone else. Huckabees much more respectable to the other Republicans if you ask me. As a catholic I find Guiliani disgusting. Romney's a flip flopper, and Mcain just cant win. Huckabee is the only electable candidate that A. Fits for me and B. Has a sense of Humor and is C. Republican

[TheBigLebbowski]

My only problem with Huckabee is how hes a creationist, and as long as he doesn't allow that to influence things he does in office than I really wont mind.

[292live]

Nearly every founding father was a "creationist," so I don't see where having another one in office is going to destroy the country. Bill Clinton is a creationist, too.

[TheBigLebbowski]

I know that, of course Bill Clinton made me sick. Thats MH's only issue for me, but I doubtm it will do anything., though he does have Ideas about taxes that may or may not work.

The RC church is fine with creationism, it has made itself clear that when it comes to interpreting the bible, that evolution works, but people can believe whatever the hell they want.

[jicmusicguy]

You said that Huckabee referred to the founding fathers as "believers", whereas in the video, he only refers to them as believing in a creator (deism). I don't think his comment was referring to the alleged Christian foundations of America, but rather had to do with the idea that true religion promotes freedom, instead of hindering it. As to the Christian/Atheist comment, I think he was insinuating that he respects an Atheist who lives by conviction, as opposed to the Christian who doesn't.

[JSResponds]

I want to point out that Huckabee didn't say that they were Christian. However, I agree that his "live like atheists" comment was, at least, Weird, and a bad part of his response. In the end, it is unfortunate that the founding fathers included god in the declaration of independence, but they did, at least, restrict the establishment of religion.

[292live]

They did a lot more than mention God in the Declaration.

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and the interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

John Jay, First Chief Justice 1777

[JSResponds]

So you provide the most extreme example without the context it was made in? From the context, it is clear that Jay was referring to America being made mostly of Christians who then had the "privilege and duty" to elect people who represented the kind of persons they felt themselves to be. Jay went on to say that the bible contains error. A simple reading of early American documents shows that the founding fathers supported separation of church and state, as well as freedom from religion.

[292live]

1799 Runkel v. Winemiller

"By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion, and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing."

Justice Samuel Chase

[JSResponds]

It's a shame that you haven't done research, and just used clips of the cases. Is this the kind of misinfo that Christians are holding to for their position? Runkel v Winemiller was a decision about ministers being improperly removed from their positions, and established their right to take their case to court.

[JSResponds]

It wasn't saying that the Christians religion was the established religion OF the US, but that Christianity as a Whole would be upheld in court decisions, rather than one sect winning over another in courts. Again, it had nothing to do with an official religion.

[292live]

1844 Vidal v. Girard (US Supreme Court)

"Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament be read and taught as a divine revelation in the schools --Its general precepts expounded and its glorious principles of morality inculcated? Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament?

[JSResponds]

This is a blatant misquote, either by you or someone else. If by you, you should be ashamed. The Girard in the case is Stephen Girard, the fourth wealthiest American of all time, who was an Atheist. Girard established a boarding school for orphans called Girard College, at which he wanted to ministers to teach because they all had different doctrines and disagreed so much with their interpretations.

[JSResponds]

Quoting Girard from the case, " "In making this restriction," says he, "I do not mean to cast any reflection upon any sect or person whatsoever. But as there is such a multitude of sects and such a diversity of opinion amongst them, I desire to keep the tender minds of the orphans, who are to derive advantage from this bequest, free from the excitement which clashing doctrines and sectarian controversy are so apt to produce"

[JSResponds]

Quoting the Judge, "But the objection itself assumes the proposition that Christianity [*200] is not to be taught, because ecclesiastics are not to be instructors or officers. But this is by no means a necessary or legitimate inference from the premises. Why may not laymen instruct in the general principles of Christianity as well as ecclesiastics." Obviously, the issue wasn't that Christianity Should be taught, but could be Allowed to be taught at Private Institutions.

[JSResponds]

Now for the quote you misquoted: "Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament, without note or comment, be read and taught as a divine revelation in the college -- its general precepts expounded, its evidences explained, and its glorious principles of morality inculcated?"

[JSResponds]

Continued: "What is there to prevent a work, not sectarian, upon the general evidences of Christianity, from being read and taught in the college by lay-teachers? Certainly there is nothing in the will, that proscribes such studies."

[292live]

CHURCH OF THE HOLY TRINITY v. U.S.

Feb. 29, 1892

" These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian."

[JSResponds]

The second quote you have is not ANYWHERE in the court case, at all, according to the case text at the Supreme Court's website. Furthermore, this court case was about laws against having people imported or migrating to work in the US; basically contracting imported labor. The Holy Trinity Church had done so in regards to a minister, and the court case was about what the law meant to do; was it to discourage everyone, or only Basic workers; ie, not religious ministers?

[JSResponds]

The decision of Justice David Josiah Brewer was that because Christianity was the majority religion in the US and its followers so active from long ago, that the law was not written to prohibit ministers coming over, but only basic workers. This was achieved via the soft plain meaning rule for interpreting statues. Brewer's statements about Christianity were nothing more than evidence of the official US position, that the government gains power and authority from the law and the people.

[JSResponds]

The first quote you gave should have more context added, as it reads "These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation. In the face of all these, shall it be believed that a congress of the United States intended to make it a misdemeanor for a church of this country to contract for the services of a Christian minister residing in another nation?"

[JSResponds]

The latter part is important because it distinguishes what the intent of teh court was; not to make it seem as though the Christian religion was established by the government, but that the law did not mean to Exclude Christian ministers from being brought in to work. It is not violating the separation of church and state, nor is it violating the statue to do so.

[JSResponds]

Furthermore, the following quote ASSURES the US that Christianity is Not established: "The free, equal, and undisturbed enjoyment of religious opinion, whatever it may be, and free and decent discussions on any religious subject, is granted and secured; but to revile, with malicious and blasphemous contempt, the religion professed by almost the whole community is an abuse of that right."

[JSResponds]

Now, what makes this case the Most interesting is that the judge is speaking Out of Legal Authority for a large portion of this case. This is most clearly reflected when the judge says after the quote I gave that the government isn't to punish or let off those who attack other religions, based on that "the morality of the country is deeply ingrafted upon Christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship of those impostors."

[JSResponds]

No one in their right mind could think that calling other religious figures Imposters is an official government statement. Furthermore, this Justice Also says, preceding the quote you gave, that America honors The Sabbath. If you know your religious history, that'd mean that America isn't just based upon Christianity, but upon Catholicism, which "changed the day" of the Sabbath to Sunday. This isn't a Catholic nation, is it?

[292live]

I don't understand what you're saying here??? Again, my point is that Christianity is not the "official religion" of the USA, but to say that prayer/Bibles in school, Thanksgiving, "In God We Trust," the Ten Commandments, etc are somehow a breach of the establishment clause is simple ignorance or an act of intellectual dishonesty.

[JSResponds]

Incorrect. The ten commandments are, Thanksgiving - depends on what you mean, prayers in school - when they are led by teachers and it is a Public school, bibles in school - again, when led by the teacher in a religious manner in a Public school, are breaches via Christianity. In God we trust isn't so much an establishment of religion as it is establishment of theism, and not everyone shares that view. Since it isn't representative, (and was added in the 1950's), it should go, in my opinion.

[JSResponds]

I should probably add that upon viewing Huckabee's answer again, it occurred to me that he may simply mean that atheists who don't hide their atheism are respectable, as opposed to Christians who do hide it and live in ways not according to their supposed beliefs.

[driubi]

All people are created equal? I always saw this a creation via parents rather than a god. Especially since Diests believed that god isn't around anymore - so how could god be creating babies?

[chukmaty]

Oh... and I do not know what Huckabee exactly meant by "live like" except that most Atheists I know live by existentialist values... in context, Mike has commented repeatedly that he admires Senator Stark more because he actually is who he is rather than being a fake theist who gives Christians a bad name.

[chukmaty]

Deists believe in a creator...

Because values are inseparable from a person whether those values are existentialist or theistic, that is why Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptists explaining the 1st amendment. Congress can pass no law in regards to religion but value systems permeate our law.

Great response and I hope Mike gives you an answer!

[fulloasis]

As a Christian, and as a reasonable person, I would like to commend you on your polite and professional behavior, particularly your lack of anger and hatred, in both your question and in your response.

Atheists often come at believers with such vitriol...so anyway...kudos.