"A Liberal Islam: is it possible?" (freethoughtvlog #24)

[MrBjrellul]

A liberal Islam that's a funny though religion is the enemy of free thought and Shuld be banned world wide befour we have another 9 11 or world war 3

[Skoda130]

@akenosskamp Beïng enlightened has everything to do with not taking your religion too seriously. "Secularized" or "liberalized" religion in the end means "less religion".

[raiki00008]

@hempartist420 you said that the Universe doesn't need a Creator. But why? And I want to hear the answer from you please.

[raiki00008]

@hempartist420 So, everthing, except the Universe, has a "Creator"? Is this what you mean?

[raiki00008]

@hempartist420 books were just examples. It's not about logic, it's about the fact that there IS need for a Creator, for example a book. Am I right? Everything needs a "Creator". A book, a building etc.

[raiki00008]

@hempartist420 First of all, I already know almost everything about evolution so don't worry about that. Second, I'm not a creationist. Third, Universe has no Creater you say, and it looks very normal and smart for you. But why is it idiot to believe that a Book doesn't have a writer. It's just the same thing.;

[raiki00008]

@hempartist420 natural selection is another aspect, what I'm asking is, what/who or whatever is the Creator of the Universe. Not natural selection right :) And, as far as I know, evolution has not been proved at macro scale right? Only at micro scale. Or am I wrong? And if it is yes, could you send the link of this site, or the link for this research please?

[raiki00008]

@hempartist420 it's not about the theories, what I want to know is what do YOU believe. The First: “Causes create this.” The Second: “It forms itself; it comes into existence and later ceases to exist.” The Third: “It is natural; Nature necessitates and creates it.” Since reason can find no way apart from these three(exc. believing in God), right? So which one do YOU believe, the first one, the second one or the third one?

[raiki00008]

@hempartist420 So, how are we created then?

[raiki00008]

@hempartist420 right, the one who rides the car. So, the muslims in Muslim countries should be Insulted and not Muslims. You're saying it yourself, it's our fault, not Islams fault. So isn't it rude to call the Islam the "peace breaker"?

[raiki00008]

@hempartist420 hempartist, a question. Let's say a car accident has happened. Who is the one to insult, The car or the one who rides it?

[raiki00008]

@hempartist420 I'm sorry but your wrong. Just do research about old Spain, when it was a Muslim country. There's no enough space to write the whole thing up. Do some research my friend. Farewell my friend.

[raiki00008]

@hempartist420 it's actually funny. The reason we are so "liberated" and "mordern" are actually muslims. Muslims are the ones who dropped the beans for Renaissance. So, the muslims are the reason for our developed civilization :) But the question then is, why is it so bad going with(almost) all Muslim countries? What's the reason for it? I don't think Islam is the reason for this. Maybe the leaders? What do you think?

[raiki00008]

@hempartist420 And, what about Turkey? The "radical Islamic" prime minister Recep Tayip Erdogan. He is a muslim too. And he got Turkey UP in just 8 years. Don't say it's because Turkey is a Secular State. The Secular Prime Ministers just led Turkey DOWN, and not UP. So, to the question is, why is Turkey a Muslim State with a good economy plus a good infrastructure etc. etc.?

[phcoh]

Without free thought, we would still be teaching our children that the world is flat and the whole cosmos rotates around the earth :-)

[AlainG80]

Haven't read Abu Zaid, thus far I believe in liberal or progressive (Qu'ran only) muslims but not in a liberal Islam. In my favourite list is an analysis of the progressive Muslims Qu'ran. I still think that Qu'ran interpretation is an abomination. And orthodox Muslims are right to point at the cherry picking fallacy.

The best Muslim is a cultural Muslim who only wants certain ethics (like Islamic banking) to survive. If anyone wants to challenge my beliefs feel free to do so.

[AlainG80]

@AlainG80

The fact that Nasr Abu Zayd was charged as an apostate illustrates my point. Islam is a totallitarian system which is to be opposed. Nasr Abu Zayd is probably a more liberal person than Geert Wilders but still an apostate in the Islamic world.

[Borisvdham]

@akenosskamp indeed

[Skoda130]

@Borisvdham What's wrong with beïng anti-religious? Religious people often are cclear enough about the atheïst position. Why shouldn't atheïsts be clear as well?

[LeSueurJames]

I have the last interview filmed with with Nasr Abu Zayd, which I filmed for a documentary that includes him. I'll post part of it soon.

[Borisvdham]

@LeSueurJames very good!

[AlainG80]

@LeSueurJames

Is this the person in question? And the last interview?

Nasr Abu Zayd: My life fighting intolerance Part (1/2)

Nasr Abu Zayd: My life fighting intolerance Part (2/2)

channel:resetdoc

[Ihatemelee]

the answer is no. 

[TheKamikazeMAR]

Geloof degenen die de waarheid zoeken, twijfel aan degenen die haar hebben gevonden.Zij lezen alleen wat ze geloven .

[revolutionaryjake]

@Borisvdham Thank you for your video! your courage is commendable. As a liberal muslim i agree with abu zaid beliefs and like him those who advocate the reformation are a hindrance. The muslim world today propagates the segregation against the world. That is the "brotherhood" movement and the majority are progressives and conservatives but very few are in Liberal Islam. My only hope is that the world could assist the liberal movement so that Islam could be integrated to the modern secular world.

[lawine1975]

video.google.com/videoplay?doc­id=-8105709395775858867

[fabje12]

Dont fossilized your though, very inspirational :D.

[Borisvdham]

@fabje12 Well, fossils are not known for their flexibility and modern positions ;-)

[fabje12]

The western moslims are not fighting the secular state or the modern society. They are well integrated in and play a role in todays society. If that is a crime to the conservative moslims and they think they are not true moslims then its their problem and not for the modern moslim.

[Borisvdham]

@fabje12 Well said!

[ParaParagon]

Expecting islam to will evolve into some liberal religion based on a marginal group of "freethinkers" sounds like wishful thinking to me. You're building an aircastle on a liberal dead theologian.

Islam, even in its mild mainstream form is viciously opposed to Western values. You need to get your head out of the sand.

I voted for Dhimmi's66 last election but that had nothing to do with their stern defense of islam.

[Borisvdham]

@ParaParagon Well, in fact a lot of Muslims are already 'freethinking'. In the west a lot of mulsims adopt to the enlighted views on the position of women, f.e.. Beside that: Islam has to come from far. As I say in the video: Islam hasn't had a reformation or enlightment, so Islam has to catch up a lot. On an individual level a lot muslims already do.

[ParaParagon]

@Borisvdham

I think you'd be surprised to learn how many supposedly moderate muslims condone 9-11, even that supposed hippy imam opening the 9-11 mosque thought it was justified. The only 'freethinking' muslim I heard you talk about was the dead theologian. If they are so numerous as you claim they are, where then is this moderate face of islam?

40% of muslim in the UK want sharia law. The UK also has several Sharia courts, would D66 approve of this as well?

[Borisvdham]

@ParaParagon First: This vlog is not a party-political instrument. Its a vlog for every person who thinks freely, unimportantly to what party or religion someone belongs. Second: Of course I am againt Sharia. And muslims who want to turn our lawsystem into that direction (or to a theocracy like the dutch SGP-christians want) can expect my strong opposition. If you take the time to watch the vlogs u will see that I 'preach' personal liberty and freedom.

[ParaParagon]

@Borisvdham

It's good to hear btw you protect secularism and are against sharia.

SInce it is not a party political thingy, I shall attack ( I am not actually out to undermine you, I just disagree with the soft-handed approach) you as a person, not as a party.

The SGP is pretty small and non-violent I don't really worry about these idiots.

I shall watch some more of your vlogs..

[Borisvdham]

@ParaParagon Thanx! 

[erhan2brother]

@Borisvdham las onlangs uw discusie met paragon en hij vroeg uw waar is de moderate muslim eigenlijk heel simpel waar o waar is de fundametalisten die de westen bedreigt? ik ken geen 1 moslim die sharia will in nederland en deze Mr beweert dat 40% in de UK sharia wil ergg ongeloofwaardig er zijn geen of nouwelijks moslims in de westen die extreme fundamentalisten zijn is het niet zo simpel dat die zelfde mensen keer op keer schreuwen tegen de islam eigenlijk fascsisten zijn? met gehijme plannen

[ParaParagon]

@Borisvdham

And speaking of Egyptians, Sadat was murdered by fundamentalists, Egypt current state:

watch?v=ISLICCp7XXI

Islam has come from far? Christianity is at least 600 yrs older.

You are sort of implying that because they haven't gone through renaissance & secularization we should just be sitting ducks and be slaughtered, hoping they somehow find their conscience, is that what you're proposing?

In pretending the islamic threat doesn't exist, D66 is practicing ostrich politics.

[Borisvdham]

@ParaParagon Looking at this remarks I wonder if you've seen the vlog. Its about these kind of fundamentalists that Abu Zaid is talking and that he opposes. And where do I promote a 'sitting duck'-stategy? Instead, I strongly support the fierce debate about radicalism, freedom of speech and I protect seperation between church/mosque and state.

[ParaParagon]

@Borisvdham

I have not only watched your vlog... I also have read the text description that came with it. Both in your description as well in your video you combine the words Egyptian and Islam. I thought you should also see this construct in a different context. I was very much staying on-topic.

You were not actually promoting the sitting duck strategy, but to focus only on a little tea light in a world of global darkness, I think, is not facing the facts.

[Borisvdham]

@ParaParagon I think there are more people than Abu Zaid who promotes a more freethinking Islam. There are a lot muslims in my own country who are as postmodern in their believes as many christians ans jews. They are a lot individuals, not famous opinionleaders. But even if Abu Zaid was the only tealight, shouln't we give it oxygen?

[ParaParagon]

@Borisvdham

If you look hard enough I am sure you find more like Zaid. But then you have to ask yourself... are you then portraying the face of Islam, or are you creating your own version of Islam, the Islam that you want it to be? You make the accusation how some of us "wallow in caricatures" but let's look at the muslims here: The majority of muslims proudly advocate theocracy, bragging about "muslim countries". There is a contempt for Western liberalism & Western culture in the muslim world.

[ParaParagon]

@Borisvdham

You're saying that there are a lot of muslim in your country (=my country as well) that are postmodern, well, maybe if you only go to D66 congress meetings and stay in fairly high society climates, focussing on select muslim theologians, then yeah.. your image of the real world might fade a bit (I don't know in how far this is a caricature but a postmodern muslim to me sounds more like a quixotic coinage of intellectual terminology rather than an actual description of the species).

[ParaParagon]

@Borisvdham

God knows how Abu Zaid has incorporated secularism & freethinking into Islam. It doesn't really matter though, at the end of the day he's a reject, a dissident on the run, the fact that he is highly educated does not all, help him represent an on average lowbrow following. It's unrealistic to expect some sort of developing trend from this. As long as the term muslim is defined as an antonym of western & secular, this antagonist identity is not one that is easily changed.

[ParaParagon]

@Borisvdham

Muslims as opposed to Christians tend to take their Magic Book literally. The Hadith (the commentary guide) Qur'an Combo has proven itself extremely resilient to secularism. There are Biblical laws that show secular tolerance, repecting the laws of the land. In the Qur'an there is no such thing. Of course one could argue that the cozy cult of modern day Christianity isn't congruent with the laws and practices prescribed in the Bible either, sure.

[erhan2brother]

@ParaParagon the original cristianity is extremist and fundamental but by the last 2 centurys newer testimonys were published that is why cristians do not take every word litellry as for islam there is an distinction in your coment that you dont uderstand for you dont understand the quran the hadith namely saria can not be installed in the netherlands becouse the poeple does not want it.

[erhan2brother]

@ParaParagon but an muslim can integrate and obey the constitution becouse the quran says aply youre self if you are in an non muslim nation no sharia but democracy we are being encouraged to integrate in the west, as for wath is wrong with islam I never saw anything bad about islam since 9.11 and corect me if Im wrong but the west sponsored sadam who killed 5000 kurds 1600 shiites even afer the genocide sadam envaded arabia kuweit the west defeated sadam

[erhan2brother]

@ParaParagon and after the victory they could untrhown sadam but they made an oil deal, 10 years later 7 hijckers who lived in caves atacked USA were arabs but afganistan had to pay the price irak had nothing to do with the acts they payed the ultimat price 1 MILLION DEAD 5 MILLION REVUGES now stoopid western politiscians blaim islam>? I can only laugh about that, gaza is an open prison

[erhan2brother]

@ParaParagon palestine goten bombed in 2006 for 2 kidnaped israelis the penalty was 1400 dead most muslims 400 children acording to the UN is that also the fault of islam or should look AT the mirror, wath is the fault of islam I never planed an terror plot I never beat my wife etc etc tc islam condems killing if you kill one inocent person you killed the entire humanity

[erhan2brother]

@ParaParagon as for beating wifes the prophet SAV said before he died take good care of the women over and over gain and his last breath pray to god-allah over and over again that he died how can we blame islam or the prophet becouse of so phew poeple>? and if islam is as some poeple say fore instance the PVV than we live in an horible world 1.5 BILLION MUSLIMS wath if >? we were as horible as some poeple say?

[ParaParagon]

@erhan2brother

There is nothing to understand about that simplistic fascist fairytale. Don't you pretend that desert manual is somehow enigmatic.

You obviously know nothing of history so don't try to lecture me on it. You also do not understand your own religion, which is a good thing for once.

Before 9-11 Islam had long established itself as a cult of mass murderers and wife beating child molesters following the leading example of their peadophile prophet.

[erhan2brother]

@ParaParagon I respect the fact you calling it an fairy tale but fascsist? well I and every muslim I know dont hate non muslims of course you claim otherwise I ques you can read my thaughts LOL and Idont know any thing about history? I can talk about almost any continent if I please, but yo islamofoobs know beter that were idiots and if I do not know anything about my own religion please show me the hate verse? if you can if not please keep your mouth shut

[erhan2brother]

as for mass murderers? islam? well I dont recall muslims killing 6 million jews? the crussades vietnam 1WAR 2WAR coldwar civill wars america the dark ages in europe I can go on and on ,I am not saying that muslims never harmed an soul and cristians are the killing mashiens, no Im saying every, religion has extremists and fanaticsts like you who hate islam , and probably me becouse I love that religion,

[ParaParagon]

@erhan2brother

I could address all those non sequiturs you sprouted, typical how muslims never take responsibility for their violent text and start moaning about something like Iraq. We were talking about the death cult of Islam.

I can forgive typos but seriously I am not going to debate idiots whom can't even grasp English language, your emotional arguments and sophist rhetoric are easy to be done away with by somebody whom would be willing to waste the time.

[erhan2brother]

@ParaParagon Im not even an english men that I miss spell some words does not make me an idiot as you are not brilliant but stoopid if you intend to curse it only shows how weak and fragile youre opinion is you can never ever win an debate against me, you islamofoobs will always yell and curse and never ever debated an integrated dutchmen of course in youre opinion Im never an dutchmen but turkish or muslim, you are the perfect example why dialog fails but if it makes you hapy curse than

[erhan2brother]

@ParaParagon is it fair to say catholiscissme is fascsist becouse hitler was an cathlic and yes he said he was an beliefer of god and he even once said quote  with the graice of god we will anialate the jews, unquote, is it fair to say cristianity mollests children?while in the news every week some scandal comes out?

[erhan2brother]

@ParaParagon I know you will not answer the questions or even try to defend youre selfs becouse you are an ignoran hateful man that rather insults propagates and spews hate rather than to debate typical PVV as for pedovilia our prophet never comited such an sinn our prophet said an girl must choose or refuse who she wants to mary of course you poeple from the PVV know better and claim that Im an lyier or so>? out?

[LordSauceness]

@erhan2brother _"as for pedovilia our prophet never comited such an sinn our prophet said an girl must choose or refuse who she wants to mary"...

...Mohammed, (piss be upon him), married a 6 year old, consumated the marriage when she grew up to be 9. Your religon is full of pedophiles. Islam is a religion for sick, perverted men who love to abuse women. As I write this, a 12 year old girls sits in a Pakistani jail because she could not care for her 70 year old *husband* Fuck you, pervert.

[erhan2brother]

@LordSauceness first of all our prophet is not an pedophile unlike the hundreds of thousands of priests around the globe as for youre hate spewinging nonsense that islam beats wifes than why is islam the most fastest growing religion in the world? why is 5 out of 6 poeple converting to islam women? if it realy is women opresing as you are calling? and if its treu that an 12 year old is in jail in pakistan its sad but imposible you canont mary unles youre 16 in pakistan pall

[LordSauceness]

@erhan2brother _"first of all our prophet is not an pedophile"___ So, what do you call marrying a 6 year old little girl?

"you cannot mary unles youre 16 inpakistan pall"___ Sorry, wrong country. It was Afganistan. One shit hole is the same as the other.

[erhan2brother]

@LordSauceness I can see you are making an political point by saying the sad story of an pakistani girl bla bla bla and hey its islams fault, hahah I can only laugh about that if can compare cristianity while Im quoting the BIBLE than I can do the same cristianity is horible the milions of children being raiped world wide is thanks to cristianity treu or false? is it fair to blame cristianity for that? I thaught so and do not NEVER forget you may hate islam and the quran bu the bible is worse

[erhan2brother]

@LordSauceness tell me one verse in the holly quran that says kill anyone inocent? tell me one verse that says treat the invidels badley? I DARE YOU now let me attack youre fantastic religion in the 1ste testimony in the bible in zacharia 14.2.1 it says I QUOTE kill the MEN divide the loot RAPE THE WOMEN end quote well well well whose religion is worse ?

[erhan2brother]

@LordSauceness hahahahha I DARE ANYONE IN THIS forum is islam more humane or cristianity cmon Mr lordsayceness hahaha but heck if you cant win the debate insult me youre good at it it only amuses me hahah

[erhan2brother]

@ParaParagonand our prohet maryd hos first wife who was

20 years older than him becous age was not important 17 years later he maryd an girl that was 14 years old and she was our prophets cousin and all was willingly, you know perfectly well that the sosciaty is difrent since the year 630 and 2010 and still you claim you are inteligent and Im not>?

you only show how ignorant you realy are

[erhan2brother]

@ParaParagonand the hero of HOLLAND willhelmus van Nassou also had multiple wives and also maryd girls who were 14 years and even 12 years but that does not make him an pedophile becousean phew hundred years ago that was the most normal thing in the world generals in armys were 17 years old for instance of course you poeple of the PVV think that they had AKA47 in the year 1680 LOL

[ParaParagon]

@Borisvdham

Whether you should feed that little flame? Moderates pave the way for extremists, making Islam acceptable, it is a common phenomenon: standing with their brothers in faith rather than the kuffar. Islamists are not some small minority either, I don't think we should be deluding ourselves by painting some rosy picture of what is in effect a merciless death cult.

[erhan2brother]

@Borisvdham Mr Vn de ham k zie uw hier met goede bedoelingen ik zag uw films en ik las uw mening over religie atheisme etc etc maar er zijjn mensen in uw forum die met uw goede bedoeling

een anti islam haat zaainde onzin aan het aankaarten ik ben bereid met iedereen een discusie of een debat te voeren maar mensen als paraparagon die zijn niet redensvatbaar, hij beschuldight islam over alles wat mis is met deze wereld en als ik hem daarop antwoord scheld hij mij uit en typisch PVV gedrag

[paulusman92]

This Abu Zaid sounds like a nice scholar :)

[Borisvdham]

@paulusman92 He is! As I said, I met him a few years ago in Leiden. He was so friendly to share his views with me for at least 2 hours. Pitty he died this year.

[rormc]

een beetje teveel camerastandpuntwisselingen... als je slechts 2x die close-up doet is het wat sterker denk ik, dit leidt zo af

[Borisvdham]

@rormc Thanx for the tip ;-)

[lawine1975]

Wat moet Boris nog veel leren over islam, zoals alle Linkssch Mensschen.

PS. de video is alleen voor Nederlanders enigzins interessant, dus graag gewoon in het Nederlands.

Je bent geen Geert Wilders die wereldwijd bekend is, maar slechts een onopvallend figuurtje in de NL politiek, dus een Nederlandse versie volstaat.

[kjrunia]

@lawine1975 Is het niet fantastisch dat Boris vrij is om een video te maken in elke taal die hij wil? En is het niet prachtig dat jij daar je onaardige commentaar op mag geven? Dat is ook liberalisme.

[lawine1975]

@kjrunia Nee, we leven in NL, en daar praten we Nederlands, dus wg met deze Dhimmi van Dhimmie's 666.

[djonnodj]

@lawine1975

Hmm, misschien kan jij beter toespraken van Wilders aan kijken?

Bedankt voor je werk Boris!!

[Borisvdham]

@djonnodj asje!

[paulusman92]

@lawine1975 Het staat voor Demonen 666, niet Dhimi's 666. Ik ben lid van de Jonge Demonen :)

[apezak]

And btw, please finally stop believing and let science take over.

[apezak]

Great topic Boris. I think a moderate Islam is more something that the West likes and breeds. But i dont think it will ever unite with the Real Islam. Not because we don't want to. But because our governments kill muslim brothers and overthrow Islamic regimes. The West hates the Islamic Ideology at global scale, but we Dutchies like to think we can throw up our borders and brainwash Muslims to be moderate. I am convinced it is naive to think that will work with Islam.

[Borisvdham]

@apezak Well, thats very negative indeed. If you look at a lot muslims in the west, they are already moving to be moderate. And Abu Zaid is very, very moderate.

[PieterFW]

Boris, ik raad je het artikel 'Moslims zijn geen machines' aan in de Groene Amsterdammer van week 46. Zeer sterk stuk vanuit Marokkaans anthropologisch perspectief over de huidige ontwikkeling waar de islam zich nu in bevindt.

[Borisvdham]

@PieterFW ik ga het lezen

[penkie1]

A problem with a 'liberal Islam' is that the Koran is very explicit about fighting non-believers and what you can and cannot do. I don't think any freethinker will not welcome a liberal Islam in itself, of course it is better than a violent Islam. However, the liberal interpretation will be directly at odds with the text in the Qur'an. But hey, hypocricy is in every religion.

Personally I think the world would be much better off if we'd stop tolerating belief in fairy tales all together.

[trusyt2007]

@penkie1 Why do people like you always need proof?! It is annoying!

[Borisvdham]

@penkie1 Every religion is quite strict about people who are not believers. Islam is not different in this. People like Abo Zaid, but many other people say that these parts of the holy books shouldn't be taken so strict. They say: lets embrace science, lets embrace new interpretations. Of course the orthodox and also fundamentalists will not like that. But thats the same in Christianity too.

[SinisterSkip]

Waarom praten we engels trouwens? Wat zijn we toch open minded, denkend dat mogelijk buitenlanders dit ook willen lezen :)

[Borisvdham]

@SinisterSkip Elke maand doe ik een engelse versie. Waarom? Omdat Youtube internationaal is en kwesties als liberalisme, vrijheden, religie en debat bij uitstek veel op internet worden besproken. ;-)

[SinisterSkip]

@Borisvdham

Prima natuurlijk, het was ook niet 100% serieus :) Volgens mij praten velen van ons standaard al engels op youtube dus geen probleem. Belachelijk dat het soms zelfs moeilijker is om iets in het Nederlands uit te drukken dan in het engels. Dit zegt ook wel iets over het efficiëntie verschil tussen de talen, maar laten we daar maar niet over beginnen.

[Masskill43]

'Free' religion would mean you have to remove the foundations of that religion and that would , yet again, ruin the whole "This is the word of god" assumption.

I dont think tolerant religions exist, the main problem is that they value their holy book above their countries' laws.

If you dont follow the laws/amendments of your 'oh so holy' book, then you're a bad theist. If you DO follow the amendments of your holy book, then you're a good follower but also intolerant of homosexuality (example)

[jochemvanl]

@Masskill43 apparently they figured it out with with Christianity.

[Masskill43]

@jochemvanl Really? Sure, the vatican claiming homosexuality is a disease, atheists are comparable with nazi's and saying aids is a punishment from god and you shouldn't use condoms...yeah, thats really good! They haven't figured it out yet and they never will, if christians start embracing homosexuals they will go straight against the teachings of their 'holy book' and wont be considered 'true' christians anymore because they dont follow the bible?

[gkonings]

@Masskill43 It's not really fair to judge the whole of cristianity on the principels of the vatican. Neither is it fair to judge the whole of islam because of the actions of some islamic terrorist.

[Masskill43]

@gkonings The vatican has millions of christian followers, they make up a big portion of that religion. But as I said before, my main point is regarding the bible. It frowns upon homosexuality, what do you say about that? Should a Christian follow his 'holy book' and disapprove of anti-gay rights or be a free thinker but go against his religion? 9/10 believers will choose their book over the laws in their country!!

[gkonings]

@Masskill43 The vatican does not represent me. Most christians I know are not represented by the vatican.

I don't feel like starting a debate about what's good and whats wrong and how others should intrepid the bible. That's not for me to decide. I can speak for myself if I say that I do not agree with the vatican on the topic of homosexuality and enough christians don't agree with that either.

Yet, I'm still a christian, a follower of Christ. I don't really care if the vatican says I'm wrong.

[Masskill43]

@gkonings Is the bible the word of god? If yes, why dont you follow everything that's in it? I thought he was all-knowing and you should do what he says? If no, why are you a christian and why do you take his word seriously if you dont follow it anyway?

[gkonings]

@Masskill43 Are you really interested in how I intrepid the bible and how I live my faith? You seem to have a well-funded opinion on it already. We never met. I don't know you, you don't know me and I have a feeling that you don't really care. So I don't really feel like answering.

Bye

[Masskill43]

@gkonings I was asking a few questions to understand how people can call themselves christians without following their bible. Yet they see it as the word of god.

Pity you cant come up with a reasonable answer but claim I insulted you and you dont want to reply.

[SinisterSkip]

@Masskill43

Many people that call themselves christians probably don't even know 1% of what's in the bible and don't have one at home. I respect anyone that respects me as an atheist, but many people that call themselves christians - to my feeling! - are not really christians, but people that believe in "something up there, but dunno what it is" or people that believe in morals, that are shared outside christianity as well. Just my view (really offtopic, but what the heck).

[Masskill43]

@SinisterSkip Yeah I agree, I know alot of people who say they're "christian" but actually just believe in god /higher power ...doesnt make you a christian in my opinion.

[Borisvdham]

@gkonings True. The church of Rome is a centralized church. Or: tries to be one. In real life most of the regional priests and believers have different and more liberal views on issues than the Pope. People use their own brains. And thats good.

[Borisvdham]

@jochemvanl well, not all christians are enlighted. There are very orthodox people who even doubt the modern role of women, and like to have a theocracy with strict laws for society based on the rules in the old testament. But luckely there are very much moderate and liberal christians too.

[RyanBoss26]

@Masskill43 not that believing is a bad thing, it can help people through moments in their life, it supposed to be the freedom of every individual. Of course you have always people who practice their religion into the extremes in ways it existed perhaps thousands of years ago

[Masskill43]

@RyanBoss26 I'm not saying believing is a bad thing, Buddhists are one of the few religions I actually respect.

And yes, it's up to each and everyone of you. But how can you believe in God yet not follow His laws? Not follow His "word" ? Not follow His teachings?

My main problem is that even though religion can help some people through moments in their life (as you said), the same religion is trying to reduce the freedom of others by blasphemy laws, by anti-gay laws and so forth..

[Borisvdham]

@Masskill43 Even orthodox believers are not doing EXACTLY what is written down. The food-rules as in the old testament are not used by the orthodox christians, for example. So why do they place those laws 'in their time and place' and other laws not?

Thats why a lot of religious people have different views than the exact views in their holy books. Very Liberal christians for example even have gay-mariages in their churches. They modernized.

[Masskill43]

If you have to see a "HOLY" book in the context of it's time, then why would you even take it serious in nowadays society? Maybe the book , back in the day, was convenient for rulsers to keep their people under control but nowadays a holy book makes no sense at all. If it's the literal word of god, then you should take every bit of it seriously. You cant just say "I dont like this, so yeah guys, dont take this bit serious...see it in it's context of time". Changing a religion into a more (1/2)