@Vondanzigkungfu I agree with you on this.To me you either have to go black with no aiming points that stand out or almost Motley as it's confusing to the eyes again looking for an aiming point.
Colours would also identify which side you fought on in a battle.
My guess and I could be wrong is colour in battle but black for a dual.
Such skill. If you listen closely you can actually hear sport fencers and kendo practicioners being cut to pieces as he unleashes this devastating florysh.
just a question to uploader: what is the reason of the strike at 0:13 ? for an attack its way to high and for guard its kinda passive. wouldnt be an "ochs" work better here ? ( and yes its ment as a real question not to be rude or stuff like that)
greetings from germany!
and thx for the nice videos of arma, i enjoyed a few of them :)
Hm...I like the sword movements, but the footwork has me a bit perplexed. From what I see, you are letting your center of gravity bob up and down a lot in between swings. Are you doing this on purpose? If so, what benefit do you get from it? I feel like you would be more balanced if you kept your center at a static altitude.
@SirKickz Your observations are spot on. I hope viewers note that other HEMA groups consider bouncing and bobbing with the centre of gravity to be very bad form. Still,everyone has their own view. ;)
Yeah, I've been doing some research, and this guy's organization, ARMA, seems to have a bad rep. I passed up an opportunity to join ARMA because I won't sign their non-disclosure agreement. I think anyone who tells their students that they can't share what they've learned are being incredibly selfish.
@SirKickz @SirKickz Look into joining the HEMA Alliance. Google HEMA Alliance, browse the forums, and use the finder to find a group near you to train with. :)
@LightxKira5643 of course they are required :)) asame as in asia where they require skirts or pijamas.. if you look at the samurai from sengoku jidai drawings etc..they looked the same..they used to tie the hakama around their calves for better mobility (it does not get stucked in mud..it does not tear etc), and looked almost the same as this man here, so shut it. western martial arts deserve the same respect as the eastern ones
ok i must interject.. I think this is pure crap. Anyone in their backyard can swing a sword fast and accurate. Now, apply it to a fight, a real fight. Then we can see his true skills. Until then this vid is BS.
@nagualshadow Actually no, not a lot of people can swing a sword fast and accurate. That's a flourish, a combination of moves, executed in a transition from one to another, it's done to develop muscle memory. If you can notice the motion of the body, the footwork and the sword motions you can tell the guy is quite skilled. For example, any backyard guy would move the body first and the sword second, any backyard guy would have a rigid stance, etc.
@Ranziel1 But you must understand how training like this for instance teaches you nothing when you face an opponent. To learn a flourish or a kata is great, it shows the dedication to the training and to the sword. But in a real swordfight those expectations and plans lead to defeat.
@nagualshadow I understand this perfectly. This training is done to develope muscle memory, as I said, for quick execution of strikes from guards and changing through stances. It's not a planned "combo", it's just to learn how to better swing a sword.
@Ranziel1 thank god for somebody with a brain in their head. from what you've said, i gather that either you practice some form swordsmanship. if im not mistaken, the man in the video is John Clements, the head of ARMA. (Association for Renaissance Martial Arts) the man is AMAZING with a sword or any other weapon. if you dont already know about them, check out their website. i think you'll enjoy it. and @nagualshadow, you need to remove your head from your ass and think before speaking
@thelatinslayer Would be easy, the samurai would most likely go for the waist, knight would not only deflect but absorb in a way in which would leave the knight himself in a very good position to cut his oponent's neck.....
Yes im basing myself in though of course it can be very very diferent, but do not ilude yourself, a samurai will not easilly defeat this technique ..... a samurai is fast, but this man dances with the sword much faster......
@TTTmiller That really depends on HOW strong they are. For instance, I have never seen anyone break my brother-in-law's grip once he grabs there wrist. I have seen jujitsu practitioners, Kali practitioners, Krav maga practitioners, etc. try and fail. Their form was perfect, he is just scary strong.
Can always tell if its good sword work by theelbows knees and waist. To really cut through a person (possibly in armour), the whole body's weight has to be used, in a vertical cut usually it is necessary to cut and sink down to what is known in the east as a "horse stance", and a horizontal cut is either swung with body behind the cut or as a counter weight, and the arms usually stretched to 80~90 %.
The techniques here look similar to those in Kenjutsu, the real art of japanese sword fighting, and Kenjutsu is slower, kendo, the sport using bamboo shinai is faster, but it is only a sport. Old sword-fighting such as those shown here has to sacrifice a little speed for cutting ability by making bigger movements (same in kenjutsu but not in kendo) because the opponent is supposed to be wearing armour.
Therefore those who say kendo/kenjutsu/katana is faster must place their comments in context. Kenjutsu as used by fully-armoured samurai, is slower. Kenjutsu in the 18th Century, when people don't wear armour, should be compared to fighting with the cutlass or sabre in European 18~19th century, and kendo should only be compared to fencing as a sport.
@ExtremeDeathman This is a pretty old video, no doubt John Clements has improved considerably. He'd do better if he dropped that 'you're all poofs' attitude towards the rest of the HEMA community though.
Also this nothing, all of these moves you see are just basic moves that he is showing; nothing complex. I am learning them too. Each move has a name! Let me name one: Vontug or Vontog (They are in German & I do not know how to spell German)
I seen way crazier moves by my instructor, and my instructor is no were near the level too this guy in the video is at!
Also I have to say that Caliburnis knows his history stuff!
Finding an ARMA group is reasonably easy... it's a fair sized organization with members in most large US cities. There are other organizations that are worth checking out as well. Look to see what's in your area.
pajak kurwa człowieku idz sie uto wyglądasz jak debil ciekawe jak by ci to szło w zbroi i z prawdziwym mieczem bo kazdy potrafi wymachiwać kawałkiem drewna
You would only halfsword in two situations. Either you have gotten so close to him that your long weapon is now working against you. You halfsword to gain more leverage. You can push aside and stike with a thrust of with the hilt.
The other situations is that the guy is in armor. Cuts are not very effective against armor. You can halfsword and try to drive the point into his armpit. There is no armor there.
I have to disagree with the first comment here that I'm replying to. If I were to get into a sword fight, I would most definitely want to use something smaller (sabre, shortsword, etc).
The broadsword is so large that it would be harder to control and react to a smaller faster blade.
Sure, a users skill obviously comes into play here... but if you paired two equal level users... I think the shorter blade would certainly come out on top.
The only downside... I would imagine the larger blade could destroy the lighter/smaller one after a few hits... so getting that lethal strike sooner would be best.
I'm not sure where the disagreement is. Is it with the choice of weapon? Or is it with the tactic of half-swording?
There is no disagreement that weapons tend to be range sensitive. If you are outside that range (either too far or too close), the weapon is less effective. That applies to both lances and daggers.
You may even have to half-sword with a short-sword if attacked by a dagger in a narrow alley.
There is also a guard where you hold the dagger by the grip and place the other hand on the blade. It is referred to as "shield guard" or the German "Fryen hutt".
The problem here is that with what you propose, you would have seen a shortening of everyone's weapons in warfare. This did not happen, in fact you can see that around the world people adopt longer weapons. From my own sparring experience, when I've been forced to use Bokken, the 9-12 inch difference feels like 9-12 miles. It creates a 'safety zone', where you can attack freely without fear of reprisal. You actually have to be /more/ skilled than the other person to win with a shorter weapon.
not at all true there is asuch a thing as too long and this and like the great sword are it. unarmored agains a normal lengthed sword you are easier to beat because the length of the sword makes it slower and more telegraphic.
Well, the facts trump that argument. There were many smaller swords, and none of them were considered inherently superior to the Longsword in unarmoured combat. I've never noticed that longer swords telegraph significantly more. Remember, they were just as fast as those smaller ones. Likewise, remember that a good part of European swordsmanship is learning to 'shorten' your weapon. The length that a Longsword is is optimized to have a range advantage, while still not being cumbersome.
Also, to me, this /is/ a normal length sword. Remember, the weight of a katana and the weight of a Longsword are essentially the same. A longsword will be, per inch of blade length, generally 'lighter' than it's Japanese counterpart. Meaning, that a 45 inch katana will actually be heavier than a 45 inch Longsword. Remember, people don't use weapons that make it easier for people to kill them. They use weapons that make it /harder/ for people to kill them.
with a sword of that leangth you will be inherently more telegraphic and after every hit there is a huge oppening. there are many situations where a long or great sword are the best choice like in armored combat but unarmored not the best choice. i am a kendoka, i know though that a katana isnt alweys the best choice either, like in armored combat, ide rather have a rapier in armored combat where stabs trump cuts.
The attack will only be telegraphed if you're slower to deliver the attack. As the Longsword isn't significantly slower, it will nto be telegraphed. Telegraphing has much more to do with body movement than weapon length. Why do you think pole arms are considered to be a superior battlefield weapon to swords? As well, you /do/ realize that a large component of Longsword fencing is the thrust, correct? Hanko Doebringer in the late 1300s at least recognised that a thrust will land faster than a cut
The katana is /not/ inherently superior to fighting in uarmoured situations, I'm sorry to say. A longer sword, or longer weapon is not significantly more telegraphed than a smaller one. This is why when it comes to two handed swords, people like to have them as long as possible. This is true even of the Samurai until until they lost their battlefield roots during the Edo Jidai.
A /slower/ weapon will be more telegraphed, but once again telegraphing has more to do with body position. Longswords are just as fast as a katana, regardless.
I mean, are you forgettng that there's an entire section of the German school for Unarmoured fencing called Blossfechten? The Western masters were /well/ aware of telegraphing your attacks, so I'm pretty sure that they'd be making their swords smaller if there were such obvious flaws int he design of the Longsword.
Why? Because you say so? The Fechtmeisters of the Medieval period would most certainly have seen such a flaw in their design. Because swords only got /longer/ as time went on when they were relevant, it can only be assumed that there was no such flaw. You do realize that the katana was never the primary weapon of the Samurai while they were still warriors, and not glorified bureaucrats, right?
Before this they used bows or /spears/. Spears, and other pole arms are /much/ longer than any sword (Outside of, perhaps, a Zweihander), so according to your logic they must be that much more telegraphed. And yet both Knights and Samurai(While they were still warriors) preferred pole arms over swords when it came to the battlefield and the duel. Hm.
However I'll give the table to you. Why would the Longsword be more telegraphed in this case? Keep in mind that the average weight of a historical katana is in between 2 and 4 pounds, while the weight of a historical Longsword is also in between 2 and 4 pounds. Also keep in mind, that Longswords were brilliantly manufactured, so again why would its design be slower or more telegraphed?
lol that would be a big fat YES. pole arms, naginata, and spears arent at all relevent to this argument they are a totaly diferent weapon and are used totaly diferently, so no they arent more telegraphic, a lopng sword is. and please try to keep your ramblings in one comment
However, you're trying to equate Length=Telegraphing. Telegraphing, just like KunstDesFechtens says, and I believe I mentioned earlier has more to do with body mechanics than weapon length. I was using pole arms as an example that length does not equate into telegraphing, regardless of weapon type. So once again, why would a longer sword telegraph more?
Also, if I have more to say, I'm going to spend more time writing it out. Common sense, really. I'm not going to dumb myself down so other people can spend less time reading.
Telegraphing is body mechanics, not length of weapon. If you move your body before your blade, you telegraph your intent, no matter the length of blade. I could go into the whole body mechanic thing, but I can tell one of my senior longsword students what strike I'm going to do, and if I'm perfectly non-telegraphic, I can hit him before he can defend, even though he knows what's coming. Can't get less telegraphic than that.
You don't know what you're talking about with regards to huge openings with a longer weapon. I don't leave huge openings with my longsword fencing. I doubt you've even seen proper longsword use (which is very tight and fast), with all due respect, sir. Also, rapiers are for UNARMOURED combat. They are nearly useless against armour.
I think the flaw in his argument comes from having a misconception about the speed of a Longsword. It seems he's thinking that longer= much heavier, and hence slower. If this were true, then I think he'd be correct. If Longswords really were significantly heavier, I think they probably would be much more telegraphed. But who would use such a silly weapon?
Could very well be. Longsword fencing and kenjutsu have many similarities. When watching clips of Koryu Kenjutus, I recognize most of it. I've had the pleasure of sparring a very experienced Kendoka (a real capital chap, BTW), and while he expected to dominate me, the reverse was true. He later said "I had no idea where the strikes were coming from!". We were both using Shinai as well. I find that many Asian MAists have many misconceptions of what European swordsmanship is actually like.
Mmhmm, I recently took up an image with a series of Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu kamae to explain this to a friend, and I essentially went over the image saying "This is Ochs...this is Vom Tag...this is Vom Tag, this is Nebenhut..." to demonstrate my point. Also, your experience was something I think...Lance-Chan also noticed? I believe he said on MyArmoury that EMAartists usually go in thinking they'll annihilate the WMArtists, and often lose due to this hubris. It could be someone else, though.
Maybe. Lance did give certain challengers a thrashing a few years back. One fellow in ARMA used to do Asian sword arts and went to an ARMA practice thinking he'd mop the floor with them. He was soundly trounced, and joined ARMA right away. :)
lol, usualy i have fun arguing with morons but you people just dont seem to understand even the most basic of consepts. because of a long swords weight and designe it is indeed more telegraphic and all the moronic whining in the world wont change that. does that make it a useless piece of crap? in unarmored combat it does, but it has its place in armored combat and only in armored combat.
A longsword's weight and design? The Longsword's weight is in between 2 and 4 pounds, just like that of a katana. Why would it be more telegraphic than a katana due to its weight when they both weigh essentially the same. That's ridiculous. And like Kunstdesfechtens said, telegraphing has to do with Body mechanics, not length of weapon. You still haven't explained why a longer weapon is more telegraphic, by the way.
Longswords are just as light, agile and maneuverable as a katana, so that means, surprise surprise, they're just as effective in unarmoured combat. That's why there was an entire branch of Longsword fighting /devoted/ to fighting in unarmoured conditions(Blossfechten). If it were as useless in unarmoured engagements as you suggest, I would think they /wouldn't use it in unarmoured engagements/ and instead prefer other swords like Arming swords or Kriegsmessers.
its bvecause of the designe it is the same weight but longer so its more top heavy and therefore hard to manuver and yes telegraphing is caused by body mechanics, that are forced on you by the weapons ungainly nature. and like i told him show me a video of this elusive non telegraphic long sword because ive never seen it. lol even big foot has videos.
This would be true if the European sword smiths didn't think of this earlier. This is what the construction of the Crossguard and the pommel is for, to evenly balance the sword. This is why the balancing point for a longsword is usually 3-5 inches north of the guard. The same as with a katana, actually. Really, you don't understand Longswords at all, do you?
There are also multiple things aside from the pommel and crossguard balancing the sword. For instance, in conjunction with those you also have these things called "Profile" and "Distal" taper. "Profile" taper is when the sword, from edge to edge, grows narrower from the base of the blade to the tip. "Distal" taper is when the thickness of the side from flat to flat grows narrower from base to tip. We can't forget the presence of the fuller either. These all help balance the blade.
ok lol i looked at every long sword video in your favurites and i have yet to see one where they are moving non telegraphicly. there where maybe 3 or 4 that they where moving prety fast but they where useing shinai not long swords at all, i know a shinai can move i use one a lot. but every time i see them use the sword they go back to the telegraphic style im used to seeing even with the wooden long swords. you realy only backed me up there dude.
unfortunately, in almost every video they're /not/ moving telegraphically. The problem here is that you're comparing the movement of a shinai to that of an actual weapon. /Of Course/ a Shinai will move faster. It's made of bamboo. Katana, and Longswords are made of /steel/. Really dude, you need a reality check. Toys are not better than actual weapons, despite a speed difference.
The problem here is also; Guess what, a katana /itself/ will move slower than a shinai. Shinai do not mimic the actual handling characteristics of a real sword, because they are /not/ real swords. They are lightweight, bamboo toys for a sport. This would be like me comparing the handling characteristics of a Foil to that of a Rapier. Absolutely ridiculous.
There's also no real difference between the wooden swords and the metal ones, because in HEMA we try and make our practice swords mimic the performance characteristics match those of our actual steel weapons. Kendo and such don't have that same consideration with their light weight shinai, which usually weigh under one pound. Combat swords, including the katana, do not weigh under one pound. By the way, you also haven't given an explanation on why the longsword would be more telegraphic. :>
lol are you retarded? XD when did i ever say i was comparing it to a shinai, im comparing it to a katana. a shinai moves faster, no shit shirlock, why do you think i disreguarded the videos on your page where they where useing shinai lol. i think you need to suck it up and except the facts lol
Well, the fact is that the katana moves on par with the longsword. There's no difference between them. Are you assuming that a katana moves like a shinai? Because that's what I was attacking.
No, not really. The shinai does not model the speed of a katana, and every katana I've ever seen handles, surprise surprise, much like that of the longsword.
Really, if the Longsword had such an obvious flaw, I think the medieval fencers who actually used it would have switched over to other weapons if it were "useless" in unarmoured combat.
lol i never said it was useless in unarmored combat, i said it was unlikely to defeat a katana. there are situations where it would be a good choice not to mention its great size may intimidate some. but in unarmored combat a katana is practicaly designed to beat it. now against a rapier it is a fine choice of weapon, maybe a better choice than a katana. it takes away the fencers reach advantage and because of its top size theres no way a rapier can block or deflect it.
Okay, first of all, I'm going to quote you right here. "does that make it a useless piece of crap? in unarmored combat it does, but it has its place in armored combat and only in armored combat." So, yes you did say it was useless in unarmoured combat.
Again, where are you getting this top heavy thing from? Longswords /were not top heavy/. That's specifically what the pommel, and taper was designed to /counter/. Objectively, a top heavy weapon's center of balance, for instance, is much higher up on a sword than a more balanced one. On a Longsword /or/ katana, the center of balance will typically be three-five inches north of the guard.
The Longsword is just as balanced as a Katana would be. I ask you here, if the Longsword were useless in Blossfechten(Unarmoured combat) why then, would they /use/ it in unarmoured combat? Likewise, the katana is /not/, and I repeat /not/ "almost like it's designed to defeat the Longsword. The Longsword was a marvelous, balanced, agile and effective weapon used by well practiced, expert swordsman. You need to get off your air of Asian superiority, friend.
Further, I really suggest you learn more about the subjects of WEstern Martial Arts and Western Arms and Armour before you say much more about them. The fact that you suggested the Rapier was an anti-armor weapon sort of proves that you don't know too much about the subjects.
lol dude the longsword is in no way as agile as a katana im sory. and yeah i said its useless in unarmored combat against a and good with armor BUT I WAS TALKING ABOUT AGAINST A KATANA. the entire argument and all your bitching is all about longsword vs. katana. face the simple fact that its not as agile as a katana, and it doesnt cut as good as a katana, those are the facts dude get of your air of european superiority. i am totaly unbiased and suport all martial arts but you cant deny the facts
Actually, no where in that post did you even /mention/ a katana. So no, you weren't talking about against a katana, because you never presented the katana as an alternative or metric to work from.
Also, why is a longsword not as agile as a katana? Because you say so? You haven't presented a single convincing argument outside of "It's just so, okay guys. Believe me. Even though two practioners with experience between katana and longsword just told me it isn't true".
What you /have/ presented; It's the same weight, but longer, making it top heavy. This is countered by the presence of profile and distal taper, and pommels. All were designed to balance the blade out, and make it maneuverable.
Please, enlighten me as to why the katana would be more agile than a weapon of near identical balance and weight?
Oh yea, your argument also included; "Lol, all those videos were telegraphed" I'll counter this with my observation that no, they are not. I believe my own observations should be enough to counter your own, and render both moot. I have a sinking suspicion you're falling into the same trap Victorian fencers did, whereby they're far more familiar with featherweight swords which are inadequate for actual combat, but still use the performance of their own weapons as a metric to judge others by.
and inever said a rapier was an anti armor weapon, i said i wouldnt mind useing it against armor, anywhey ide rather use a rapier against armor than a katana, if i only knew how to use one. you got to read more carefuly and stop stickin words in my mouth.
Your words; "like in armored combat, ide rather have a rapier in armored combat where stabs trump cuts." Here you present that the Rapier is a viable weapon to use against an armored opponent. This, even if you didn't present it as an anti armor weapon, shows exactly what you know about Western martial arts and western arms. Rapiers had a hard time dealing with thick leather jackets, how the hell are they going to operate against sterner stuff?
You know what. We shouldn't handle this here. I know of a better media in which to propose this quandary. This one is filled with practitioners of Eastern and Western martial arts, who have mind boggling amounts of experience with weapons from both spheres. I propose that we bring our discussion to the forums of Myarmoury "dot" c o m, where you open up your suggestions about the Longsword's performance characteristics. We'll get a definitive answer there.
well i never claimed to know about european armor, all i do know is that stabs trump cuts so i thought the best stabing blade would be best, i guess i was wrong. but what i do know is that the katana is faster and more agile than a longsword, every video i have ever seen in my life on this earth, including yours, have suported my words, you havnt givin me any proof to the contrary besides you & some dudes said so well i am going to believe my eyes before i believe what you & some dudes said
The burden of proof lies with the accusor, my friend. You are the one who has to provide proof that the Longsword is slower than the katana, because you are the one making that assertion. As of yet, you haven't provided /anything/ aside from "Lol, All these videos are slower" when in fact they are /not/ slower. Once again, I advise you to go to My armoury 'dot' c o m and make this assertion there. They have much more experience than you or I.
A good example is this video right here. While this is but a simple florysh, or free from demonstration of movements, the sword is actually moving just as fast as a katana. You can barely see the guy's waster moving, actually. Dude, face it. Europeans used effective swords. If the Longsword were not effective, it would not have been /used/.
and to be honest i am tired of this arguent. i dont care you can believe what ever you want and i will believe my eyes untill i see this elusive sight, the longsword that is as agile as a katana.
Well, in every video I have in my favorites list the longswords are moving just as fast as they would be if they were actually katana. Anything else you suggest is your bias speaking, not anything else.
However, I'll ask this; Why would one well balanced piece of steel which weighs 2-4 pounds be that much more agile than another well balanced piece of steel which weighs 2-4 pounds?
As well, can you provide me with a video that shows katana being used in a significantly faster, more agile way than all of the Longswords used in the videos I've provided?
my god take a hint dude, im tired of your bitching lol. in this video he is not even moving as fast as a katana. and i NEVER said a longsword was useless, i said it was RATHER useless against a katana in unarmored combat and guess what IM RIGHT. why would a longsword 2-4 pounds be less agile than a katana 2-4 pounds? lol the hell if i know your the long sword guy you tell me XD from what ive seen a katana is more agile than a longsword, i aint swaying till i see diferent till then sthu lol
So, what you're trying to tell me is that you have absolutely no objective basis for your argument? And that your argument is entirely based upon "Lol, well, I say they're slower". Yea, alright. Concession accepted buddy. Your argument doesn't hold water. A longsword is not less agile, and not slower than a katana. Remind yourself that I've actually handled both weapons. Have you? You lack any knowledge of the Longsword, so I'd expect you to actually remain silent on the issue until otherwise.
Once again, can you /at the very least/ provide a video that shows katana being used in a significantly faster manner? If you can't your argument is even weaker than I thought, and I'll start suspecting that you're operating wholely from assumptions garnered from considering the Shinai to be representative of an actual Katana in performance.
Also, you never said "Rather useless", nor did you say when compared to a katana(Which in and of itself is incorrect). Your statement was, and I'll quote exactly; "because of a long swords weight and designe it is indeed more telegraphic and all the moronic whining in the world wont change that. does that make it a useless piece of crap? in unarmored combat it does, but it has its place in armored combat and only in armored combat." Where do you even mention the katana in this post?
omg are you fucking slow in the head dude. we where arguing long before that post, do i have to remind you what were arguing about in every post? are too dumb to remember it tourself? lol. and for the last fucking time i never even said the word shinai till you braught it up, realy search katana and you will see videos where it is being used so much faster than a long sword even our slow ass brain should process it. and i never said its the case "cause i said so" i made my claim on what i see
Yup. I've seen those videos, and I'm not noticing any speed difference at all. However, you never even made a comparison in that post, and simply said "it is useless in unarmoured combat". If it were a comparison you would see words like the following "In comparison" "When compared to", or "when considered against". Your post had none of those.
Also, could you explain to me why Longswordsmen tend to fair quite well, even trouncing some groups soundly, when it comes to cross-style experiences inbetween EMA and WMA?
damn at first your argument semed enteligent but now your twisting my words not remembering what the hell i wrote and just making me think more and more that your just a moron who cant take the fact that your precious longsword isnt as agile as a katana. suck it up and quit bitching already. there are many weapons more agile than a long sword, hell there are many weapons more agile than a katana you dont see me making up bull crap and crying lol.
Twisting your words? I was quoting /exactly/ what you wrote, buddy. In it, there was absolutely no hint of any sort to a comparison being drawn. Likewise, I haven't made anything up. Nothing at all. The /fact/ remains that the katana /is not/ more agile or faster than the Longsword. It's as simple as that. Once again I'll ask; Have you ever actually handled a longsword?
lol yes that was an exact quote of something i said like 8 comments into the conversation when i asumed it was established that i was talking about a katana you blithering moron. and yes i have held a long sword but i doupt its quality so i wont even site that. im judging based on what i have seen. i saw and made my statement if you wanba shut me down do it already for god sakes. show me a video that proves me wrong. if you cant do that the realy just shut the fuck up
Second; You made absolutely no inclination that it was a comparison at all. So perhaps you did mean "in comparison", but your method of execution was foolhardy and quite ineffective. The point is irrelevent, however, because even in comparison to a katana the Longsword is not "useless" in unarmoured combat.
lol my very first comment was a "a longsword is rather useless against a katana in unarmored combat" how in the frigin hell is that unclear??? i rely dont know how to dumb it down for you anymore than that lol
Your first comment was actually; "not at all true there is asuch a thing as too long and this and like the great sword are it. unarmored agains a normal lengthed sword you are easier to beat because the length of the sword makes it slower and more telegraphic."
just one other video. most people except the fact that a katana is more agile than a longsword. but you have trouble facing reality. or understanding simple things like the erelevance of a quote taken out of the middle of an argument
Most people accept the assumption because scholarship into the European martial arts is relatively new. Just like Kunstdesfechtens said, we've been fighting myth after myth for ten-twenty years, and you're just another victim of a wide range of misinformation that's been propagated for over a hundred years. So, frankly, this isn't a "fact".
from what i have seen in comparison a katana is more agile than a longsword thats simply that, and i wont take a word of it back untill i see otherwise with my own eyes.
Question; If the longsword had such an obvious weakness in unarmoured combat, why did it even exist? Swords are primarily used against lightly armored, or unarmoured opponents with other weapons being preferred for armored opponents, so why would they use a weapon that had such an obvious weakness? And why would it come to dominate the European martial arts?
well its fine for fighting other long swords or the like but against a katana, and a sword and shiel i would emagine, it isnt a very wise choice of weapon
So, why did it come to dominate the European martial arts? They would often face smaller weapons, and sword and shield combinations. I'm going to assume these people would know the values of their weapons more than you or I.
well their recovery after a hit isnt as good as that of a long sword but i thought the shield would make up for that. oh well lol. still against a katana a sword and shield is a better choice than a frigin long sword XD
Except that it's not, as shown by my experience, the Association for Renaissance Martial Art's, and numerous other practitioners aside from yourself. But what I'm trying to get across to you is that /obviously/, if the Longsword were so widespread for Harnischfechten, /and/ Blossfechten, that that means that it had qualities which the Martial Artists of the time found admirable. This would even be with the numerous sword forms all across Europe, including the katana-like "Kriegsmesser".
i dont know what they had to deal with that made them favore the longsword, all i know, all im claiming to know is that a katana is more agile than a longsword. there was a japanese version of the long sword where they had an elongated blade with added reach but guess what, it wasnt as agile as a normal katana so it wasnt as popular lol. why did leangth win out in europe and agility win out in japan? i dont know but im sure theres a good reason and i saw your the video and a katana is more agile
The "Odachi" wasn't as agile because it was still designed like a regular katana. Meaning, it had little taper along the blade. Longswords had a totally different construction, including Pommel, and taper making it that much more balanced. "Odachi" is not an analog for Longsword. Remind yourself also, that part of the reason the Japanese used shorter swords was because they were so /short/. Before the Meiji at least, the average Japanese male was only 5'1". In Europe, the Nobility were 5'9"+.
lol OK thats all fine and good, but despite whatever they do to counter loss of agility in the longsword it is still not as agile as a katana, that is simply that. its not designed for agility, thats prety obvious, just look at it, its not even hard to tell witch is more agile bafore you see them in action. and once you see them its undeniable realy. so im done, you go on and think what ever you want lol
Uh, actually it was designed for agility. That's why they took such great pains to /lighten the blade/ as well as balance it. Including Fuller, pommel, taper, etc. These all serve to make the blade quite agile, friend.
A cursory glance also means nothing. You yourself have admitted you've never handled a good quality Longsword before.
And if you're still arguing that a katana is more agile, and hence renders the Longsword useless despite the mounds of evidence to the contrary then I'm inclined to believe that you're simply stonewalling at this point. Alright, please explain to me why the Europeans would enjoy the use of the Longsword for both Armored and Unarmoured fighting? And, please explain why the techniques for such /require/ a highly amount of agility?
lol are you still crying over this? look its not as agile as a katana, a katana is more designed for agility than a longsword end of story. i have seen them both in action from very good videos and it is clear to the eye that the katana is by far more agile than the longsword. lol you dont have to explain why the sun rises to know that it does. i dont know why they stuck with the long sword, but i do know that it isnt as agile as a katana. as anyone with eyes that has seen both in action knows.
Except you're in the minority of people who claim this, with many other people observing the weapons themselves, and /not/ coming to this conclusion. Really, you're just being pig headed and biased at this point. The facts do not support your argument in this case. The /fact/ is that Longswords are /not/ less agile than katana. And, frankly, anyone with eyes can see this to be true.
They have nearly identical weight, nearly identical balance, and are nearly identical in handling characteristics. There is /no logical reason/ why a Longsword would be slower than a katana. None. At all. None whatsoever. Your argument here is entirely based upon subjective, obviously biased opinion without a shred of objectivity. Your argument amounts to; "Lol, well I've seen videos and they're slower". Really. That's horse shit, pardon my french.
Once again, I'll ask for you to provide me with a video of a katana being used substantially faster than a longsword would, if it were used in a similar manner. Remember, /you/ are the accuser here, so it's /your/ job to back your argument up with evidence.
that guy in the vid is pretty fast, u just need to be faster than that, doesnt really matter what your holding as long as your better than your opponent.
@SethMan91 Here's a much more recent video: watch?v=Vp9xjkOlM4o. Looks pretty similar to me.
CollegiumInArmis 3 months ago
Also: The reason he wears bright red clothes is to confuse his opponents and instill fear in the hearts of his enemies.
Vondanzigkungfu 6 months ago
@Vondanzigkungfu I agree with you on this.To me you either have to go black with no aiming points that stand out or almost Motley as it's confusing to the eyes again looking for an aiming point.
Colours would also identify which side you fought on in a battle.
My guess and I could be wrong is colour in battle but black for a dual.
ENGLISHDOGSOLDIER 4 months ago
Such skill. If you listen closely you can actually hear sport fencers and kendo practicioners being cut to pieces as he unleashes this devastating florysh.
Vondanzigkungfu 6 months ago
Hoop! Hoop! Hoop! Hoop! Hoop! Hoop! Hoop!
battlemullet 7 months ago
just a question to uploader: what is the reason of the strike at 0:13 ? for an attack its way to high and for guard its kinda passive. wouldnt be an "ochs" work better here ? ( and yes its ment as a real question not to be rude or stuff like that)
greetings from germany!
and thx for the nice videos of arma, i enjoyed a few of them :)
SchmidtKatze1980 9 months ago
Hm...I like the sword movements, but the footwork has me a bit perplexed. From what I see, you are letting your center of gravity bob up and down a lot in between swings. Are you doing this on purpose? If so, what benefit do you get from it? I feel like you would be more balanced if you kept your center at a static altitude.
SirKickz 9 months ago in playlist WMMA
@SirKickz Your observations are spot on. I hope viewers note that other HEMA groups consider bouncing and bobbing with the centre of gravity to be very bad form. Still,everyone has their own view. ;)
CollegiumInArmis 7 months ago
@CollegiumInArmis
Yeah, I've been doing some research, and this guy's organization, ARMA, seems to have a bad rep. I passed up an opportunity to join ARMA because I won't sign their non-disclosure agreement. I think anyone who tells their students that they can't share what they've learned are being incredibly selfish.
SirKickz 7 months ago
@SirKickz @SirKickz Look into joining the HEMA Alliance. Google HEMA Alliance, browse the forums, and use the finder to find a group near you to train with. :)
TheHunter1337 3 months ago
fuck, want to see you doin this with a real longsword and armour
Blackmachino 9 months ago
@Blackmachino : He does all the time.
Halofreakanoid 8 months ago
very graceful!
awesome!
spectraldistortion 9 months ago
Is that kenny powers?
LightxKira5643 10 months ago
I HAB DAT SWORD ON WORLD OF WARCRAFT!!!1!!!!!11!!!!!
SocializingYT 1 year ago
oh is dat y hes doing all those crazy moves?! ok then...
TheIkawatay 1 year ago
WTF IS HE DOING?!
TheIkawatay 1 year ago
@TheIkawatay those are some of the practice drills normally used in western swordplay.
megadeath45 1 year ago
@megadeath45 ARe the long skeet socks required in western armed combat? If so I'll stick with Asia.
LightxKira5643 10 months ago
@LightxKira5643 of course they are required :)) asame as in asia where they require skirts or pijamas.. if you look at the samurai from sengoku jidai drawings etc..they looked the same..they used to tie the hakama around their calves for better mobility (it does not get stucked in mud..it does not tear etc), and looked almost the same as this man here, so shut it. western martial arts deserve the same respect as the eastern ones
11kman1 8 months ago
@11kman1 Girls wear dresses, men wear yukatas.
Also btw, that's japan.
Though there are some godly samurai and stuff like Okita and Musashi.
I do kung fu though.
LightxKira5643 8 months ago
@11kman1 Btw he looks like that guy from eastbound and down. By chance is that him?
LightxKira5643 8 months ago
@TheIkawatay Longsword....
blakan3 1 year ago
@blakan3 You mean Longswording hu, hu, hu ???
TheIkawatay 10 months ago
@TheIkawatay Yup
blakan3 10 months ago
@TheIkawatay super rain dance
wingsoffire55 6 months ago
@worldfest errr, except if your opponent wanted you dead, and had a longword himself... or maybe a cannon and some range?
Botjer1 1 year ago
ok i must interject.. I think this is pure crap. Anyone in their backyard can swing a sword fast and accurate. Now, apply it to a fight, a real fight. Then we can see his true skills. Until then this vid is BS.
nagualshadow 1 year ago
@nagualshadow Actually no, not a lot of people can swing a sword fast and accurate. That's a flourish, a combination of moves, executed in a transition from one to another, it's done to develop muscle memory. If you can notice the motion of the body, the footwork and the sword motions you can tell the guy is quite skilled. For example, any backyard guy would move the body first and the sword second, any backyard guy would have a rigid stance, etc.
Ranziel1 1 year ago
@Ranziel1 But you must understand how training like this for instance teaches you nothing when you face an opponent. To learn a flourish or a kata is great, it shows the dedication to the training and to the sword. But in a real swordfight those expectations and plans lead to defeat.
nagualshadow 1 year ago
@nagualshadow I understand this perfectly. This training is done to develope muscle memory, as I said, for quick execution of strikes from guards and changing through stances. It's not a planned "combo", it's just to learn how to better swing a sword.
Ranziel1 1 year ago
@Ranziel1 thank god for somebody with a brain in their head. from what you've said, i gather that either you practice some form swordsmanship. if im not mistaken, the man in the video is John Clements, the head of ARMA. (Association for Renaissance Martial Arts) the man is AMAZING with a sword or any other weapon. if you dont already know about them, check out their website. i think you'll enjoy it. and @nagualshadow, you need to remove your head from your ass and think before speaking
justaguy502 1 year ago
wtf
lordcapucino 1 year ago
wonderfulll...challenge a samurai now...and break him
thelatinslayer 1 year ago
@thelatinslayer Would be easy, the samurai would most likely go for the waist, knight would not only deflect but absorb in a way in which would leave the knight himself in a very good position to cut his oponent's neck.....
Yes im basing myself in though of course it can be very very diferent, but do not ilude yourself, a samurai will not easilly defeat this technique ..... a samurai is fast, but this man dances with the sword much faster......
blakan3 1 year ago 3
Nice technique, people always tell me strength beats technique but I beg to differ, having both isnt bad tho
TTTmiller 1 year ago
@TTTmiller That really depends on HOW strong they are. For instance, I have never seen anyone break my brother-in-law's grip once he grabs there wrist. I have seen jujitsu practitioners, Kali practitioners, Krav maga practitioners, etc. try and fail. Their form was perfect, he is just scary strong.
Altonahk 1 year ago
Can always tell if its good sword work by theelbows knees and waist. To really cut through a person (possibly in armour), the whole body's weight has to be used, in a vertical cut usually it is necessary to cut and sink down to what is known in the east as a "horse stance", and a horizontal cut is either swung with body behind the cut or as a counter weight, and the arms usually stretched to 80~90 %.
Pecherin72 1 year ago
The techniques here look similar to those in Kenjutsu, the real art of japanese sword fighting, and Kenjutsu is slower, kendo, the sport using bamboo shinai is faster, but it is only a sport. Old sword-fighting such as those shown here has to sacrifice a little speed for cutting ability by making bigger movements (same in kenjutsu but not in kendo) because the opponent is supposed to be wearing armour.
Pecherin72 1 year ago 3
Therefore those who say kendo/kenjutsu/katana is faster must place their comments in context. Kenjutsu as used by fully-armoured samurai, is slower. Kenjutsu in the 18th Century, when people don't wear armour, should be compared to fighting with the cutlass or sabre in European 18~19th century, and kendo should only be compared to fencing as a sport.
Pecherin72 1 year ago 3
medieval fighting styles were good
Meixafuhellzman2 2 years ago 2
Also, to much Oberhau, no real Unterhau, footwork is a bit to much "forward-and-backward" oriented, recovery time after strike is to great.
Not much mistakes and not major, but still deadly...
ExtremeDeathman 2 years ago
@ExtremeDeathman This is a pretty old video, no doubt John Clements has improved considerably. He'd do better if he dropped that 'you're all poofs' attitude towards the rest of the HEMA community though.
halfassedfart 1 year ago
Good, but these are MEDIEVAL sword techniques...
ExtremeDeathman 2 years ago
once again some more awesomeness!
SwordOwar 2 years ago
nice footwork.
ohdeejay 2 years ago
i practice japanese and korean styles but its nice to see something different, very impresive.
cannibalkyle 3 years ago
So this are much slower?
watch?v=9G_d98ewZmM
watch?v=RJT1_1C231k&feature=related
watch?v=tsGU5KI1qJA&feature=related
Looks fast to me.
oh look at this:
Duelling shield and longsword freeplay
watch?v=z9VG4ClQcJk
255Knights 3 years ago
Also this nothing, all of these moves you see are just basic moves that he is showing; nothing complex. I am learning them too. Each move has a name! Let me name one: Vontug or Vontog (They are in German & I do not know how to spell German)
I seen way crazier moves by my instructor, and my instructor is no were near the level too this guy in the video is at!
Also I have to say that Caliburnis knows his history stuff!
255Knights 3 years ago
Vom Tag? "From the Roof"?
Caliburnis 3 years ago 4
lol
VikingWannaBe51887 3 years ago
shoot him!
popliphaha 3 years ago
i dont know what to do. to be impressed by his speed, or to laugh a bit that he looked a bit funny while doing so
devilwannabe 3 years ago
i dont know what to do. to be impressed by his speed, or to laugh a bit that he looked a bit funny while doing so
devilwannabe 3 years ago
NICE! i want those moves...NOW!
Rensra 4 years ago 2
Finding an ARMA group is reasonably easy... it's a fair sized organization with members in most large US cities. There are other organizations that are worth checking out as well. Look to see what's in your area.
Kunstdesfechtens 4 years ago
yep its lethal alright,,, but he would stand a chance with my m14... lol shot him right in the face for a total ownage...
jabberwook 4 years ago
pajak kurwa człowieku idz sie uto wyglądasz jak debil ciekawe jak by ci to szło w zbroi i z prawdziwym mieczem bo kazdy potrafi wymachiwać kawałkiem drewna
dniowiec 4 years ago
yeah it's a lethal art, and this guy would very probably kick my ass... but he still looks like an idiot doing that xD
lORDELO2 4 years ago
You would only halfsword in two situations. Either you have gotten so close to him that your long weapon is now working against you. You halfsword to gain more leverage. You can push aside and stike with a thrust of with the hilt.
tsafa1 4 years ago 3
The other situations is that the guy is in armor. Cuts are not very effective against armor. You can halfsword and try to drive the point into his armpit. There is no armor there.
tsafa1 4 years ago 2
I have to disagree with the first comment here that I'm replying to. If I were to get into a sword fight, I would most definitely want to use something smaller (sabre, shortsword, etc).
The broadsword is so large that it would be harder to control and react to a smaller faster blade.
TJYoung80234 4 years ago
-Continued-
Sure, a users skill obviously comes into play here... but if you paired two equal level users... I think the shorter blade would certainly come out on top.
The only downside... I would imagine the larger blade could destroy the lighter/smaller one after a few hits... so getting that lethal strike sooner would be best.
TJYoung80234 4 years ago
My comment was directed to tsafa1... and for some reason it made it's own place instead of replying to him.
TJYoung80234 4 years ago
I'm not sure where the disagreement is. Is it with the choice of weapon? Or is it with the tactic of half-swording?
There is no disagreement that weapons tend to be range sensitive. If you are outside that range (either too far or too close), the weapon is less effective. That applies to both lances and daggers.
You may even have to half-sword with a short-sword if attacked by a dagger in a narrow alley.
tsafa1 4 years ago
There is also a guard where you hold the dagger by the grip and place the other hand on the blade. It is referred to as "shield guard" or the German "Fryen hutt".
tsafa1 4 years ago
The problem here is that with what you propose, you would have seen a shortening of everyone's weapons in warfare. This did not happen, in fact you can see that around the world people adopt longer weapons. From my own sparring experience, when I've been forced to use Bokken, the 9-12 inch difference feels like 9-12 miles. It creates a 'safety zone', where you can attack freely without fear of reprisal. You actually have to be /more/ skilled than the other person to win with a shorter weapon.
Caliburnis 4 years ago
not at all true there is asuch a thing as too long and this and like the great sword are it. unarmored agains a normal lengthed sword you are easier to beat because the length of the sword makes it slower and more telegraphic.
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Well, the facts trump that argument. There were many smaller swords, and none of them were considered inherently superior to the Longsword in unarmoured combat. I've never noticed that longer swords telegraph significantly more. Remember, they were just as fast as those smaller ones. Likewise, remember that a good part of European swordsmanship is learning to 'shorten' your weapon. The length that a Longsword is is optimized to have a range advantage, while still not being cumbersome.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Also, to me, this /is/ a normal length sword. Remember, the weight of a katana and the weight of a Longsword are essentially the same. A longsword will be, per inch of blade length, generally 'lighter' than it's Japanese counterpart. Meaning, that a 45 inch katana will actually be heavier than a 45 inch Longsword. Remember, people don't use weapons that make it easier for people to kill them. They use weapons that make it /harder/ for people to kill them.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
with a sword of that leangth you will be inherently more telegraphic and after every hit there is a huge oppening. there are many situations where a long or great sword are the best choice like in armored combat but unarmored not the best choice. i am a kendoka, i know though that a katana isnt alweys the best choice either, like in armored combat, ide rather have a rapier in armored combat where stabs trump cuts.
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
The attack will only be telegraphed if you're slower to deliver the attack. As the Longsword isn't significantly slower, it will nto be telegraphed. Telegraphing has much more to do with body movement than weapon length. Why do you think pole arms are considered to be a superior battlefield weapon to swords? As well, you /do/ realize that a large component of Longsword fencing is the thrust, correct? Hanko Doebringer in the late 1300s at least recognised that a thrust will land faster than a cut
Caliburnis 3 years ago
The katana is /not/ inherently superior to fighting in uarmoured situations, I'm sorry to say. A longer sword, or longer weapon is not significantly more telegraphed than a smaller one. This is why when it comes to two handed swords, people like to have them as long as possible. This is true even of the Samurai until until they lost their battlefield roots during the Edo Jidai.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
A /slower/ weapon will be more telegraphed, but once again telegraphing has more to do with body position. Longswords are just as fast as a katana, regardless.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
I mean, are you forgettng that there's an entire section of the German school for Unarmoured fencing called Blossfechten? The Western masters were /well/ aware of telegraphing your attacks, so I'm pretty sure that they'd be making their swords smaller if there were such obvious flaws int he design of the Longsword.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
you can ramble on all you want in the end yes because of the way the long sword is designed it IS inherently more telegraphic and slower
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Why? Because you say so? The Fechtmeisters of the Medieval period would most certainly have seen such a flaw in their design. Because swords only got /longer/ as time went on when they were relevant, it can only be assumed that there was no such flaw. You do realize that the katana was never the primary weapon of the Samurai while they were still warriors, and not glorified bureaucrats, right?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Before this they used bows or /spears/. Spears, and other pole arms are /much/ longer than any sword (Outside of, perhaps, a Zweihander), so according to your logic they must be that much more telegraphed. And yet both Knights and Samurai(While they were still warriors) preferred pole arms over swords when it came to the battlefield and the duel. Hm.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
However I'll give the table to you. Why would the Longsword be more telegraphed in this case? Keep in mind that the average weight of a historical katana is in between 2 and 4 pounds, while the weight of a historical Longsword is also in between 2 and 4 pounds. Also keep in mind, that Longswords were brilliantly manufactured, so again why would its design be slower or more telegraphed?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
lol that would be a big fat YES. pole arms, naginata, and spears arent at all relevent to this argument they are a totaly diferent weapon and are used totaly diferently, so no they arent more telegraphic, a lopng sword is. and please try to keep your ramblings in one comment
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
However, you're trying to equate Length=Telegraphing. Telegraphing, just like KunstDesFechtens says, and I believe I mentioned earlier has more to do with body mechanics than weapon length. I was using pole arms as an example that length does not equate into telegraphing, regardless of weapon type. So once again, why would a longer sword telegraph more?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Also, if I have more to say, I'm going to spend more time writing it out. Common sense, really. I'm not going to dumb myself down so other people can spend less time reading.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Telegraphing is body mechanics, not length of weapon. If you move your body before your blade, you telegraph your intent, no matter the length of blade. I could go into the whole body mechanic thing, but I can tell one of my senior longsword students what strike I'm going to do, and if I'm perfectly non-telegraphic, I can hit him before he can defend, even though he knows what's coming. Can't get less telegraphic than that.
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago
Great! Thank you for the explanation. :>
Caliburnis 3 years ago
You don't know what you're talking about with regards to huge openings with a longer weapon. I don't leave huge openings with my longsword fencing. I doubt you've even seen proper longsword use (which is very tight and fast), with all due respect, sir. Also, rapiers are for UNARMOURED combat. They are nearly useless against armour.
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago
I think the flaw in his argument comes from having a misconception about the speed of a Longsword. It seems he's thinking that longer= much heavier, and hence slower. If this were true, then I think he'd be correct. If Longswords really were significantly heavier, I think they probably would be much more telegraphed. But who would use such a silly weapon?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Could very well be. Longsword fencing and kenjutsu have many similarities. When watching clips of Koryu Kenjutus, I recognize most of it. I've had the pleasure of sparring a very experienced Kendoka (a real capital chap, BTW), and while he expected to dominate me, the reverse was true. He later said "I had no idea where the strikes were coming from!". We were both using Shinai as well. I find that many Asian MAists have many misconceptions of what European swordsmanship is actually like.
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago
Mmhmm, I recently took up an image with a series of Kenjutsu and Iaijutsu kamae to explain this to a friend, and I essentially went over the image saying "This is Ochs...this is Vom Tag...this is Vom Tag, this is Nebenhut..." to demonstrate my point. Also, your experience was something I think...Lance-Chan also noticed? I believe he said on MyArmoury that EMAartists usually go in thinking they'll annihilate the WMArtists, and often lose due to this hubris. It could be someone else, though.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Maybe. Lance did give certain challengers a thrashing a few years back. One fellow in ARMA used to do Asian sword arts and went to an ARMA practice thinking he'd mop the floor with them. He was soundly trounced, and joined ARMA right away. :)
Kunstdesfechtens 3 years ago
lol, usualy i have fun arguing with morons but you people just dont seem to understand even the most basic of consepts. because of a long swords weight and designe it is indeed more telegraphic and all the moronic whining in the world wont change that. does that make it a useless piece of crap? in unarmored combat it does, but it has its place in armored combat and only in armored combat.
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
A longsword's weight and design? The Longsword's weight is in between 2 and 4 pounds, just like that of a katana. Why would it be more telegraphic than a katana due to its weight when they both weigh essentially the same. That's ridiculous. And like Kunstdesfechtens said, telegraphing has to do with Body mechanics, not length of weapon. You still haven't explained why a longer weapon is more telegraphic, by the way.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Longswords are just as light, agile and maneuverable as a katana, so that means, surprise surprise, they're just as effective in unarmoured combat. That's why there was an entire branch of Longsword fighting /devoted/ to fighting in unarmoured conditions(Blossfechten). If it were as useless in unarmoured engagements as you suggest, I would think they /wouldn't use it in unarmoured engagements/ and instead prefer other swords like Arming swords or Kriegsmessers.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
its bvecause of the designe it is the same weight but longer so its more top heavy and therefore hard to manuver and yes telegraphing is caused by body mechanics, that are forced on you by the weapons ungainly nature. and like i told him show me a video of this elusive non telegraphic long sword because ive never seen it. lol even big foot has videos.
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
This would be true if the European sword smiths didn't think of this earlier. This is what the construction of the Crossguard and the pommel is for, to evenly balance the sword. This is why the balancing point for a longsword is usually 3-5 inches north of the guard. The same as with a katana, actually. Really, you don't understand Longswords at all, do you?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
There are also multiple things aside from the pommel and crossguard balancing the sword. For instance, in conjunction with those you also have these things called "Profile" and "Distal" taper. "Profile" taper is when the sword, from edge to edge, grows narrower from the base of the blade to the tip. "Distal" taper is when the thickness of the side from flat to flat grows narrower from base to tip. We can't forget the presence of the fuller either. These all help balance the blade.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Specifically you should look at;
watch?v=6bZWuNd-tqY&feature=related
watch?v=RJT1_1C231k
watch?v=dki5sVPS5_s&feature=related
watch?v=BNja00FNyeg&feature=related
Caliburnis 3 years ago
ok lol i looked at every long sword video in your favurites and i have yet to see one where they are moving non telegraphicly. there where maybe 3 or 4 that they where moving prety fast but they where useing shinai not long swords at all, i know a shinai can move i use one a lot. but every time i see them use the sword they go back to the telegraphic style im used to seeing even with the wooden long swords. you realy only backed me up there dude.
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
unfortunately, in almost every video they're /not/ moving telegraphically. The problem here is that you're comparing the movement of a shinai to that of an actual weapon. /Of Course/ a Shinai will move faster. It's made of bamboo. Katana, and Longswords are made of /steel/. Really dude, you need a reality check. Toys are not better than actual weapons, despite a speed difference.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
The problem here is also; Guess what, a katana /itself/ will move slower than a shinai. Shinai do not mimic the actual handling characteristics of a real sword, because they are /not/ real swords. They are lightweight, bamboo toys for a sport. This would be like me comparing the handling characteristics of a Foil to that of a Rapier. Absolutely ridiculous.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
There's also no real difference between the wooden swords and the metal ones, because in HEMA we try and make our practice swords mimic the performance characteristics match those of our actual steel weapons. Kendo and such don't have that same consideration with their light weight shinai, which usually weigh under one pound. Combat swords, including the katana, do not weigh under one pound. By the way, you also haven't given an explanation on why the longsword would be more telegraphic. :>
Caliburnis 3 years ago
lol are you retarded? XD when did i ever say i was comparing it to a shinai, im comparing it to a katana. a shinai moves faster, no shit shirlock, why do you think i disreguarded the videos on your page where they where useing shinai lol. i think you need to suck it up and except the facts lol
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Well, the fact is that the katana moves on par with the longsword. There's no difference between them. Are you assuming that a katana moves like a shinai? Because that's what I was attacking.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
lo of course not, but its not far off. in any case its much faster than a long sword.
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
No, not really. The shinai does not model the speed of a katana, and every katana I've ever seen handles, surprise surprise, much like that of the longsword.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Really, if the Longsword had such an obvious flaw, I think the medieval fencers who actually used it would have switched over to other weapons if it were "useless" in unarmoured combat.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
lol i never said it was useless in unarmored combat, i said it was unlikely to defeat a katana. there are situations where it would be a good choice not to mention its great size may intimidate some. but in unarmored combat a katana is practicaly designed to beat it. now against a rapier it is a fine choice of weapon, maybe a better choice than a katana. it takes away the fencers reach advantage and because of its top size theres no way a rapier can block or deflect it.
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Okay, first of all, I'm going to quote you right here. "does that make it a useless piece of crap? in unarmored combat it does, but it has its place in armored combat and only in armored combat." So, yes you did say it was useless in unarmoured combat.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Again, where are you getting this top heavy thing from? Longswords /were not top heavy/. That's specifically what the pommel, and taper was designed to /counter/. Objectively, a top heavy weapon's center of balance, for instance, is much higher up on a sword than a more balanced one. On a Longsword /or/ katana, the center of balance will typically be three-five inches north of the guard.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
The Longsword is just as balanced as a Katana would be. I ask you here, if the Longsword were useless in Blossfechten(Unarmoured combat) why then, would they /use/ it in unarmoured combat? Likewise, the katana is /not/, and I repeat /not/ "almost like it's designed to defeat the Longsword. The Longsword was a marvelous, balanced, agile and effective weapon used by well practiced, expert swordsman. You need to get off your air of Asian superiority, friend.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Further, I really suggest you learn more about the subjects of WEstern Martial Arts and Western Arms and Armour before you say much more about them. The fact that you suggested the Rapier was an anti-armor weapon sort of proves that you don't know too much about the subjects.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
lol dude the longsword is in no way as agile as a katana im sory. and yeah i said its useless in unarmored combat against a and good with armor BUT I WAS TALKING ABOUT AGAINST A KATANA. the entire argument and all your bitching is all about longsword vs. katana. face the simple fact that its not as agile as a katana, and it doesnt cut as good as a katana, those are the facts dude get of your air of european superiority. i am totaly unbiased and suport all martial arts but you cant deny the facts
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Actually, no where in that post did you even /mention/ a katana. So no, you weren't talking about against a katana, because you never presented the katana as an alternative or metric to work from.
Also, why is a longsword not as agile as a katana? Because you say so? You haven't presented a single convincing argument outside of "It's just so, okay guys. Believe me. Even though two practioners with experience between katana and longsword just told me it isn't true".
Caliburnis 3 years ago
What you /have/ presented; It's the same weight, but longer, making it top heavy. This is countered by the presence of profile and distal taper, and pommels. All were designed to balance the blade out, and make it maneuverable.
Please, enlighten me as to why the katana would be more agile than a weapon of near identical balance and weight?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Oh yea, your argument also included; "Lol, all those videos were telegraphed" I'll counter this with my observation that no, they are not. I believe my own observations should be enough to counter your own, and render both moot. I have a sinking suspicion you're falling into the same trap Victorian fencers did, whereby they're far more familiar with featherweight swords which are inadequate for actual combat, but still use the performance of their own weapons as a metric to judge others by.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
and inever said a rapier was an anti armor weapon, i said i wouldnt mind useing it against armor, anywhey ide rather use a rapier against armor than a katana, if i only knew how to use one. you got to read more carefuly and stop stickin words in my mouth.
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Your words; "like in armored combat, ide rather have a rapier in armored combat where stabs trump cuts." Here you present that the Rapier is a viable weapon to use against an armored opponent. This, even if you didn't present it as an anti armor weapon, shows exactly what you know about Western martial arts and western arms. Rapiers had a hard time dealing with thick leather jackets, how the hell are they going to operate against sterner stuff?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
You know what. We shouldn't handle this here. I know of a better media in which to propose this quandary. This one is filled with practitioners of Eastern and Western martial arts, who have mind boggling amounts of experience with weapons from both spheres. I propose that we bring our discussion to the forums of Myarmoury "dot" c o m, where you open up your suggestions about the Longsword's performance characteristics. We'll get a definitive answer there.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
well i never claimed to know about european armor, all i do know is that stabs trump cuts so i thought the best stabing blade would be best, i guess i was wrong. but what i do know is that the katana is faster and more agile than a longsword, every video i have ever seen in my life on this earth, including yours, have suported my words, you havnt givin me any proof to the contrary besides you & some dudes said so well i am going to believe my eyes before i believe what you & some dudes said
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
The burden of proof lies with the accusor, my friend. You are the one who has to provide proof that the Longsword is slower than the katana, because you are the one making that assertion. As of yet, you haven't provided /anything/ aside from "Lol, All these videos are slower" when in fact they are /not/ slower. Once again, I advise you to go to My armoury 'dot' c o m and make this assertion there. They have much more experience than you or I.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
A good example is this video right here. While this is but a simple florysh, or free from demonstration of movements, the sword is actually moving just as fast as a katana. You can barely see the guy's waster moving, actually. Dude, face it. Europeans used effective swords. If the Longsword were not effective, it would not have been /used/.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
and to be honest i am tired of this arguent. i dont care you can believe what ever you want and i will believe my eyes untill i see this elusive sight, the longsword that is as agile as a katana.
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Well, in every video I have in my favorites list the longswords are moving just as fast as they would be if they were actually katana. Anything else you suggest is your bias speaking, not anything else.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
However, I'll ask this; Why would one well balanced piece of steel which weighs 2-4 pounds be that much more agile than another well balanced piece of steel which weighs 2-4 pounds?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
As well, can you provide me with a video that shows katana being used in a significantly faster, more agile way than all of the Longswords used in the videos I've provided?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
my god take a hint dude, im tired of your bitching lol. in this video he is not even moving as fast as a katana. and i NEVER said a longsword was useless, i said it was RATHER useless against a katana in unarmored combat and guess what IM RIGHT. why would a longsword 2-4 pounds be less agile than a katana 2-4 pounds? lol the hell if i know your the long sword guy you tell me XD from what ive seen a katana is more agile than a longsword, i aint swaying till i see diferent till then sthu lol
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
So, what you're trying to tell me is that you have absolutely no objective basis for your argument? And that your argument is entirely based upon "Lol, well, I say they're slower". Yea, alright. Concession accepted buddy. Your argument doesn't hold water. A longsword is not less agile, and not slower than a katana. Remind yourself that I've actually handled both weapons. Have you? You lack any knowledge of the Longsword, so I'd expect you to actually remain silent on the issue until otherwise.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Once again, can you /at the very least/ provide a video that shows katana being used in a significantly faster manner? If you can't your argument is even weaker than I thought, and I'll start suspecting that you're operating wholely from assumptions garnered from considering the Shinai to be representative of an actual Katana in performance.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Also, you never said "Rather useless", nor did you say when compared to a katana(Which in and of itself is incorrect). Your statement was, and I'll quote exactly; "because of a long swords weight and designe it is indeed more telegraphic and all the moronic whining in the world wont change that. does that make it a useless piece of crap? in unarmored combat it does, but it has its place in armored combat and only in armored combat." Where do you even mention the katana in this post?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
omg are you fucking slow in the head dude. we where arguing long before that post, do i have to remind you what were arguing about in every post? are too dumb to remember it tourself? lol. and for the last fucking time i never even said the word shinai till you braught it up, realy search katana and you will see videos where it is being used so much faster than a long sword even our slow ass brain should process it. and i never said its the case "cause i said so" i made my claim on what i see
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Yup. I've seen those videos, and I'm not noticing any speed difference at all. However, you never even made a comparison in that post, and simply said "it is useless in unarmoured combat". If it were a comparison you would see words like the following "In comparison" "When compared to", or "when considered against". Your post had none of those.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Also, could you explain to me why Longswordsmen tend to fair quite well, even trouncing some groups soundly, when it comes to cross-style experiences inbetween EMA and WMA?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
damn at first your argument semed enteligent but now your twisting my words not remembering what the hell i wrote and just making me think more and more that your just a moron who cant take the fact that your precious longsword isnt as agile as a katana. suck it up and quit bitching already. there are many weapons more agile than a long sword, hell there are many weapons more agile than a katana you dont see me making up bull crap and crying lol.
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Twisting your words? I was quoting /exactly/ what you wrote, buddy. In it, there was absolutely no hint of any sort to a comparison being drawn. Likewise, I haven't made anything up. Nothing at all. The /fact/ remains that the katana /is not/ more agile or faster than the Longsword. It's as simple as that. Once again I'll ask; Have you ever actually handled a longsword?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
lol yes that was an exact quote of something i said like 8 comments into the conversation when i asumed it was established that i was talking about a katana you blithering moron. and yes i have held a long sword but i doupt its quality so i wont even site that. im judging based on what i have seen. i saw and made my statement if you wanba shut me down do it already for god sakes. show me a video that proves me wrong. if you cant do that the realy just shut the fuck up
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
First: Stop the personal attacks.
Second; You made absolutely no inclination that it was a comparison at all. So perhaps you did mean "in comparison", but your method of execution was foolhardy and quite ineffective. The point is irrelevent, however, because even in comparison to a katana the Longsword is not "useless" in unarmoured combat.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
watch?v=6bZWuNd-tqY&feature=related
watch?v=RJT1_1C231k
watch?v=dki5sVPS5_s&feature=related
watch?v=BNja00FNyeg&feature=related
Caliburnis 3 years ago
lol my very first comment was a "a longsword is rather useless against a katana in unarmored combat" how in the frigin hell is that unclear??? i rely dont know how to dumb it down for you anymore than that lol
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
...No it wasn't. You never even said that before just now. I'm even running it through Firefox's "Search" feature.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Your first comment was actually; "not at all true there is asuch a thing as too long and this and like the great sword are it. unarmored agains a normal lengthed sword you are easier to beat because the length of the sword makes it slower and more telegraphic."
Caliburnis 3 years ago
hmm i guess thats on another video. still my comment was true though. the great sword is hello combersome
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Oh great, you're espousing this myth on other videos too?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
just one other video. most people except the fact that a katana is more agile than a longsword. but you have trouble facing reality. or understanding simple things like the erelevance of a quote taken out of the middle of an argument
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Most people accept the assumption because scholarship into the European martial arts is relatively new. Just like Kunstdesfechtens said, we've been fighting myth after myth for ten-twenty years, and you're just another victim of a wide range of misinformation that's been propagated for over a hundred years. So, frankly, this isn't a "fact".
Caliburnis 3 years ago
from what i have seen in comparison a katana is more agile than a longsword thats simply that, and i wont take a word of it back untill i see otherwise with my own eyes.
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
watch?v=6bZWuNd-tqY&feature=related
watch?v=RJT1_1C231k
watch?v=dki5sVPS5_s&feature=related
watch?v=BNja00FNyeg&feature=related
Caliburnis 3 years ago
OK i dont know what the hell to do with that. i cant click it what the hell is it?
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
...add the youtube address to the front of those URL segments. Each one is a different video.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Question; If the longsword had such an obvious weakness in unarmoured combat, why did it even exist? Swords are primarily used against lightly armored, or unarmoured opponents with other weapons being preferred for armored opponents, so why would they use a weapon that had such an obvious weakness? And why would it come to dominate the European martial arts?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
well its fine for fighting other long swords or the like but against a katana, and a sword and shiel i would emagine, it isnt a very wise choice of weapon
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
So, why did it come to dominate the European martial arts? They would often face smaller weapons, and sword and shield combinations. I'm going to assume these people would know the values of their weapons more than you or I.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
In fact, sword and shield fighting took a /backseat/ to Longswords as time went on.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
well their recovery after a hit isnt as good as that of a long sword but i thought the shield would make up for that. oh well lol. still against a katana a sword and shield is a better choice than a frigin long sword XD
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
So my question remains. Why then would Longswords come to dominate European martial arts? In Unarmoured /or/ armored combat?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
lol do i look like a history profecor, i realy dont know but what i do know is that a katana is more agile than a longsword
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Except that it's not, as shown by my experience, the Association for Renaissance Martial Art's, and numerous other practitioners aside from yourself. But what I'm trying to get across to you is that /obviously/, if the Longsword were so widespread for Harnischfechten, /and/ Blossfechten, that that means that it had qualities which the Martial Artists of the time found admirable. This would even be with the numerous sword forms all across Europe, including the katana-like "Kriegsmesser".
Caliburnis 3 years ago
i dont know what they had to deal with that made them favore the longsword, all i know, all im claiming to know is that a katana is more agile than a longsword. there was a japanese version of the long sword where they had an elongated blade with added reach but guess what, it wasnt as agile as a normal katana so it wasnt as popular lol. why did leangth win out in europe and agility win out in japan? i dont know but im sure theres a good reason and i saw your the video and a katana is more agile
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
The "Odachi" wasn't as agile because it was still designed like a regular katana. Meaning, it had little taper along the blade. Longswords had a totally different construction, including Pommel, and taper making it that much more balanced. "Odachi" is not an analog for Longsword. Remind yourself also, that part of the reason the Japanese used shorter swords was because they were so /short/. Before the Meiji at least, the average Japanese male was only 5'1". In Europe, the Nobility were 5'9"+.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
lol OK thats all fine and good, but despite whatever they do to counter loss of agility in the longsword it is still not as agile as a katana, that is simply that. its not designed for agility, thats prety obvious, just look at it, its not even hard to tell witch is more agile bafore you see them in action. and once you see them its undeniable realy. so im done, you go on and think what ever you want lol
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Uh, actually it was designed for agility. That's why they took such great pains to /lighten the blade/ as well as balance it. Including Fuller, pommel, taper, etc. These all serve to make the blade quite agile, friend.
A cursory glance also means nothing. You yourself have admitted you've never handled a good quality Longsword before.
Caliburnis 3 years ago 3
And if you're still arguing that a katana is more agile, and hence renders the Longsword useless despite the mounds of evidence to the contrary then I'm inclined to believe that you're simply stonewalling at this point. Alright, please explain to me why the Europeans would enjoy the use of the Longsword for both Armored and Unarmoured fighting? And, please explain why the techniques for such /require/ a highly amount of agility?
Caliburnis 3 years ago 2
lol are you still crying over this? look its not as agile as a katana, a katana is more designed for agility than a longsword end of story. i have seen them both in action from very good videos and it is clear to the eye that the katana is by far more agile than the longsword. lol you dont have to explain why the sun rises to know that it does. i dont know why they stuck with the long sword, but i do know that it isnt as agile as a katana. as anyone with eyes that has seen both in action knows.
Hawaiianstile 3 years ago
Except you're in the minority of people who claim this, with many other people observing the weapons themselves, and /not/ coming to this conclusion. Really, you're just being pig headed and biased at this point. The facts do not support your argument in this case. The /fact/ is that Longswords are /not/ less agile than katana. And, frankly, anyone with eyes can see this to be true.
Caliburnis 3 years ago 4
They have nearly identical weight, nearly identical balance, and are nearly identical in handling characteristics. There is /no logical reason/ why a Longsword would be slower than a katana. None. At all. None whatsoever. Your argument here is entirely based upon subjective, obviously biased opinion without a shred of objectivity. Your argument amounts to; "Lol, well I've seen videos and they're slower". Really. That's horse shit, pardon my french.
Caliburnis 3 years ago 4
Once again, I'll ask for you to provide me with a video of a katana being used substantially faster than a longsword would, if it were used in a similar manner. Remember, /you/ are the accuser here, so it's /your/ job to back your argument up with evidence.
Caliburnis 3 years ago 3
that guy in the vid is pretty fast, u just need to be faster than that, doesnt really matter what your holding as long as your better than your opponent.
cannibalkyle 3 years ago