Forging Knife Blades

[OEFvet1986]

thats really cool, im getting started making file knives myself. How do you temper the knife with the propane torch?

[zanuha]

@OEFvet1986

You put the damn thing in an oven.

[OEFvet1986]

@zanuha nevermind...

[zanuha]

@OEFvet1986

No, really. Put the knife in an oven. Two runs 230 degrees celsius, 30 minutes each works for me.

[OEFvet1986]

@zanuha I do 2 runs at 440 degrees two hours each. I wanted to know how to do it with a propane torch though

[onebigyooper]

thought i was da oly one who used files. da way people talk bout ot like' them it seems da excuse is always da same, to hard to sharpen. its true if you only bring them to a straw color temper they are hard to sharpen but da other side of that is they take that much longer to dull. when it comes to leaf springs i found da sad way if you dont temer them right after hardening they start to spontaniously form cracks.

[gwhayduketmrg]

Nice photo essay Love that puukko at the end.

In one of the photos you are heating up the blade with a torch. I'm assuming these photos are in order of process, what was going on in the torch shot? I'm also wondering what was happening in the shot with the blades in alligator clips.

[KnifemakingUnplugged]

Wow, what a awesome set up.

[blacksmither1]

i have never been able to get a handle on my knives

[teddy555tothe666]

nice :) reminds of scandinavian knives:)

[Trollskyy]

i love simple knives like this one, just a bushcraft tool but with great spirit and soul enchanted in it.

[WarBeer]

Tom....you're definitely "too cool for school"......right on brother! PLEASE keep your videos coming:)

[gnarvids]

Nice knifes

[TheRapistRaper]

aaw at 1:09 the knife looks cute, being all little and stuff

[KonstantinKuehn]

no way there is no way ur this good at EVERYTHING! u have awesome bows and arrows and atlatls! now we find out ur an amazing blade smith and knife maker! what is this! ur simply too talented! give me some of that!

[TheHellBound666]

nice belly on some of those blades man, great vid.

[druisteen]

little blade forginng in what ?

[raysteer]

Lovely looking knives, i'm about to try making some file knives too, so it's great to see what can be done. Nice rendition too.

[Frankallen12]

That song is absolutely Beautiful......Nice Knife making!!!

[Biohazard1369]

whats the song?

great knives btw.

[Paleoaleo]

LOL...it's me trying to learn an old Celtic/Irish song called "she moved through the fair". There are some cool versions of it on youtube. Mine is really bad!

[Biohazard1369]

LOL...i beg to differ. I enjoyed it...i really enjoyed it. :D

[Paleoaleo]

There's another book out there called "The $50 Knife Shop" by Wayne Goddard (sp?). I have that book and it is very helpful.

[ballygeale1]

very nice knifes.

[mwchinbach]

really nice blade shapes,especially the single-edged ones. Nice music,too!

[simickua]

Paleoaleo I play around with making and engraving. Thank you so much for taking the time to put this up......there is so much to learn. I could watch you and this all day long. Wow......I am going to your site now....I wish you the best and thanks for sharing...not too many do! Kris

[simickua]

@RazorCable I make knives and engrave for a hobby. I learned from a man featured in Gun Digest named Earl Dillion. I would recommend a book called, "Step by Step Knifemaking You Can Do It! by David Boye. I still have to go back to it once in a while. It is very easy to read with pictures and that is my style. Its for beginner and Intermediate. Covering metals and wood and how poor people can start without major equipment.

Hope that helps! Kris

[cadet200]

how do you form the tang on your knives?

[Paleoaleo]

If using an old file, I mostly just use the tang on the file itself - sometimes drawing it out a little longer. If I'm starting with from bar stock or round stock, I try to draw out a tang by hammering, but I'm not very good at that.

[78cxander]

Files make excellent knives when heat treated properly.Rounding the shoulders down where the tang meets the blade would help prevent stress risers.Ive seen file knives flex 90 degrees and return to almost straight, weak they are not. While some blacksmiths do have cool beards they are not bladesmiths.There is a huge difference.If you are interested in making knives dont study under a blacksmith.Ive heard alot of misinformation come from the mouths of blacksmiths when it come to making knives.

[Paleoaleo]

Thanks for sticking up for file knives! I'm only a beginner and have lots to learn. There's lots to criticize about my knives (not rounding the shoulders of the tang for instance! Something I learned since these knives), and there's lots of reasons not to bother using files I suppose, but all I've ever read and been told...file steel is good steel (except for the case hardened junk). Tom

[Elnyne]

1metalnation: Files are most generally 1095/W1 steel. this means that the carbon content is .95% average throughout the billet. the 10 signifies a simple steel with maybe some manganese thrown in as grain refiner. My guess is your seeing these stress cracks due to your quench media. May I suggest not using wate or brine as this is to harsh a quench for this steel. Use a fast quench oil sold through McMaster Carr. It's the 11 second oil you want. the 28 is for complex steels like O1/L6/5160 etc,

[blowgunking1994]

its beautiful

[matthbva]

Unfortunately, most (not all) generalist blacksmiths -- even so-called "master" blacksmiths -- have fairly crude ideas about heat treating. File steel makes excellent blades if properly heat treated. 1metalnation, why don't you describe your heat treating process in detail, from the end of forging through tempering?

It's true that file teeth can cause stress risers, and it's best to grind them off before converting a file to a knife blade.

[Inkling2B]

Forge-welding is NOT the same thing as true Damascus steel, which is a pattern that is formed by impurities aligning the bands of cementite clusters in ferrite matrix. Pattern-welding is made by twisting a softer iron with a harder steel together and then etching them with acid after forging. Look up Alfred Pendray, the rediscoverer of the true method of Damascus. True Damascus has to start with sorel iron with vanadium impurities that is then smelted with other ingredients and then forged.

[boomtao]

If you made this music yourself, I have three words for you: Practice with metronome!

[brewa90]

good job !

[1metalnation]

u sir, should be slapped in the face, for all u aspiring smiths out there, DONT MAKE KNIVES OUT OF FILES, its brittle steel to begin

with and the cuts in the file male numerous week points. those knifes are prone to shattering

[jeremiahsineiii]

WHat about the Anza knives?

[Paleoaleo]

Slap me? Are you kidding or just a rude jerk. I'll cut you slack you probably don't deserve and assume your kidding.

As to your comments about file steel: files are generally made from W-1 or W-2 steel. The steel is made hard and brittle by the file-maker on purpose during the quench and tempering process. Once annealed, file steel is no longer brittle. Once made into a knife and re-hardened and re tempered, it is no longer brittle. Even a rank beginner like me knows this.

[1metalnation]

even after u take the brittleness out of it, the cuts made into the file so that it can actually bite the steel and do work cause micro cracks, anneal to your heart's content that knife will be weak, the only time u should ever use a file is if you are making damascus, because the second type of steel fills in the cracks and works quite nicely, make chain links to learn how to forge weld, then move up to damascus

[Paleoaleo]

Well, I've made numerous knives from old files and never had the problems you describe. I've seen lots of other people do the same - some of them quite accomplished blade-smiths. If you're interested in blade-smithing and knifemaking, you should check out the forums on PaleoPlanet. Some serious knifemakers are there. Just leave your threats of violence behind! lol...

[1metalnation]

uhhh, Im apprenticing under a master blacksmith, 2 years into the 10, the reason you haven't run into that problem is because of the length of the blade itself, make an 8 blade, see what happens, Ive done that twice, using files, unless that file stays ridiculously thick its gonna crack and break, just like what happened to me, if you are gonna make knives out of files make damascus, learn to forge weld

[iamcondescending]

how long of a knife blade could you make out of say a 12" half round file?

[Paleoaleo]

That's pretty big.  I imagine you could make a knife at least 12" long or longer. I prefer short blades for the stuff I use a knife for (mainly wood carving stuff).

[iamcondescending]

i ask because i have a couple files that aren't "true" anymore making them pretty much useless for millwright work

[johnnyLikeVideo]

what is the oven for? I thought the forge was for heating the file up. Thanks.

[lizardinc]

that tempers the blade - so it gets slightly softer.

[Paleoaleo]

The oven thing is a propane forge. I tempered these blades using a combination of the little propane torch and my kitchen oven (not shown in the photo slide show).

[69furball69]

Those are sweet puukos.

[cadet200]

how do you put on the handles and make them stay?

[GoatLord66]

drill a hole thru the handle and glue or you make it go all thru and peen it down

[TheBlacksmith58]

Very nice looking knives, but I think more forging and less grinding would make a nicer primitive knife. That's just me though....

[firestormcomputers]

so awesome!!!!!!

[upaulyo]

....Beautiful.. That was really cool, nice job

[Monkeyworrior]

I've been griding old-files to make hunting knife without heat treat and noticed some of the blades did not hold its edge. Why? Does it has anything to do with the grade of the iron or is because the blade lost its hardness during the griding process?

Thank you

[PaulyCracker]

It's because it ruined the temper and possible burned the steel. Best to dunk it after a few seconds when it gets too hot to hold into water or oil. The best blades are hot forged, because it compresses and aligns the steel. I've not tried forging yet, but I'm working on building a 'one brick' forge. Can't wait, but I don't think the neighbors will like the noise too much :)

[Ondure]

You didn't temper the metal.

This makes it much harder and potentially more brittle. Basically, you want to heat the metal to a cherry red, and then dunk it in water to rapidly cool it off. make sure that you are careful! Holding it oddly as you "dunk" can result in a bend in the blade!

[tomalophicon]

You need to anneal it first, grind it, then temper it. Then slightly anneal it again!

[kalevraa]

people, if you assume to give advise to others, please make sure you really know what you are talking about. annealing, hardening and tempering are all crucial steps in making a knife, but the terms are not interchangeable any more than the actual steps are. there is not such thing as "slight annealing", burnt motor oil will fume like crazy and give you lung cancer, oil-hardening steels stand an excellent chance of cracking in water, and forging doesn't not "compress" steel.

[tomalophicon]

So what would you call putting it into an oven a few times to soften the steal? Annealing?

Oh, and tempering and hardening are the same thing.

Take your own advise.

[kalevraa]

tomalophicon,

annealing means bringing the steel to its softest state by heating it to its critical temperature and cooling it at a very slow rate, which is specific to each steel. tempering and hardening are definitely NOT the same thing. hardening is heating to critical temperature and cooling in water, oil, or air (still or forced), depending on the steel. tempering means reheating the hardened steel to a much lower temperature to reduce brittleness and gain toughness.

[tomalophicon]

Cool thanks. I learned something.

[kalevraa]

my pleasure. forging and heat treating steel is a very exciting field, impossible to exhaust in one here agree on this point.

cheers.

[kalevraa]

i will take my own advise and eat my words if someone shows me that i am wrong.  however, any serious book on heat-treatment of modern steels will give these definitions. and the reason that i presume to write about heat treatment rather than, say, sex life of aadvarks is because i am a professional blacksmith and have been forging steel and making knives for a living for rather a long time. nice shots of the knife-making process, though.

[snowboarderx3x]

if i wanted to start working with metal and making knives/axes could you recommend a set up? just a hammer and stump/piece of railroad track? how do i make a forge.

[kalevraa]

snowboarder,

your list is correct. also, . check out ABANA, a national blacksmithing organization. they will have info on your local chapter, which will hold conferences where you will get a lot of good info and hands-on experience from some friendly smiths .ABANA site will also have tons of info on building forges, or forging knives, or any other damn thing. don't try to do it all on your own -- there are people out there only too happy to help out. good luck, and have a lot of fun!

[GoatLord66]

dig a hole in the ground, fill it with coal, and get an air suply that blows up from the bottom of the fire. it isnt harder than that. charcoal requires less air thar mineral coal

[NickleJ]

tempering and softening are more closely the same thing, actually.

[howes1960]

a good way to explain it to laypersons is as a scale from 'soft' to 'hard' as, annealed-normalized-tempered-h­ardened. Again, this is simplified version.

[kalevraa]

monkeyworrior,

paulcracker might be right -- grinding heat-treated steel can heat it up and it will loose its temper. however, there is another possibility -- some files are only case-hardened, which means that the layer of hard steel is only a fraction of an inch deep. once you grind it off, it's all over. a simple spark test (on the tang, or grinding deeply) will show exactly what the file is made of. hope this helps.

[elobire]

yeah i was wonderin how how do you need to get it??

[ZuluComander]

i was thinking instead of useing files could i use a old crow bar or would that not have enough carbon in it

[Martj91]

lool just happend to notice the gloves u use are the same as i used with sand and iron blasting.

[TrailerTrash2009]

its called a dagger

[rammstein9661]

burned motor oil is best but water will do and its a forge

[bluetoad2001]

hey, is that a birch bark handled knife on the left?? thanks

buzz

[Paleoaleo]

Yep. Good eye buzz.

Tom

[whatleymattu]

i have never blacksmithed, so what if i dont have a lil kilm to get the files hot , can i just use a fire, i heard cow patties get a fire hotter than normal , and after i have the shape that i would like, I should get it red hot , then dip it in water ? what does this do , get it harder than it normally would be , when just letting it cool off, and does it distort the color , is there a way to keep the stains off the blade ?

[AaronAlso]

He was using a blast forge, probably running from propane & oxygen. You can make a simple forge from and old grill.

Rivet a 3 or 4" duct flange to the bottom of the grill. If it doesn't have ash holes you will need to drill them. Then, fill the bottom with 4-6 inches of clay, but leave the holes where ash would have fell through. I suggest also covering the sides with 2-3 inches of clay. ALLOW THE CLAY TO DRY COMPLETELY. Then connect a fan to the flange and blow air up through the coals.

[xmusicfeverx]

If you guys like these knives made from files I recommend looking up ANZA knives on google. Purely custom knives made from high carbon steel files.

[shillelaghslaw]

i love to use Nordic knives, do you make mora style knives? those are my favorite for bush craft and primitive living.

[AinokeA365]

they may be small but they're really sharp!

[shortmansrq]

awsome, really beautifull knifes.

[Kilsmer]

they would make good spear heads

[doubleomeara]

lush how long does it take you to make one

[prettyboy1132]

DO you sell these knives? if so how much?

[razoredgeknife]

Nice scandi style knives.

[tmcmoney09]

awesome work

[MADdwarfWorkshop]

thats awesome! brilliant work on all of those blades!

thanks for sharing :)

[AinokeA365]

sweet!!!!

[kangahmtl2n]

beutiful knives

[entmage]

I suck at knives but I'm good at medical tools (18th century)

[ickycan]

Very cool!