The Qur'an through godless eyes - Part 2 The good

[hubbabubbarubbalubba]

Muslims take this book too seriously.

[whybag]

Coming back to the whole series 6 months after "The Bad" was finished, I'm really given the impression that, all the good in this book, is more akin to "Even a blind finds a nut sometimes."

[ozmoroid]

@whybag I feel the same way.

[daliaalsaid1]

i would like you to talk about women's right in islam -if u dont want then just dont-. i think its one of the most important points, why do they cover themselves: to keep eyes away from them, today all women insult themselves by exposing their bodies, wich'll cause them bad reputation, and will ruin families, wives would feel jealous, men would be cheating their wives after feeling desire, wives would feel ugly and unpleasing..etc. and how god gave women equal rights as the man. and a lot more.

[castroherman]

@daliaalsaid1 So basically, men are all potential rapists and adulterers, women who don't wear what you and those who think like you feel is appropriate are insulting themselves and their families, so women have to cover themselves. If we reduce that logic ad absurdum we could just as easily just force all men to wear blindfolds in public. Another spiffy idea is to just have a secular democratic society with individual freedom so that no one HAS to wear any sort of uniform at all.

[daliaalsaid1]

i am a muslim and i've already seen enough of those youtubers who post some really bad things about us. and now i think that there's this false copy of quran in america, wich says that we should lie to others, kill them..etc. that does make me feel bad, like we r the most hated religion on the whole earth. thanks god i've watched ur video, makes me feel better to know that at least some people dont trust the stereotype thing. may god bless u

[VekinHighwalker]

2 years...! What a waste, but at least, he's trained to make people laugh..! Peace

[VekinHighwalker]

Ha ha ha!!! Very good!! Bye,neph!!

[VekinHighwalker]

Quite an interesting approach... I appreciate the fair methodology you use to

[DSAhmed]

(at 8:40 - the misleading verse) The real problem with this verse is the words "corruption in the land" this can be interpreted as pretty much anything that goes against islam. 

[ozmoroid]

@DSAhmed That a very good point.

[MrLuvaluva67]

You see you can't even read it properly, you pronounced "Piety" Pitty and you are altering it deliberately to mock Islam, you will be punished severely... trust me on that;)

[ozmoroid]

@MrLuvaluva67 It's a pity I pronounced pie-et-teee as if it were pi-tee. ;-)

[lashkaretoiba]

@ozmoroid You're reading what was said about freeing slaves all wrong. Do an internet search for: "Humanitarian Muhammad: Did Muhammad Abolish Slavery?"

[johndebbra]

@MrLuvaluva67 guess your book does not allow mispronunciation what is even more sad your religion like all others threatens violence and not try to correct them your religion like all others punish for eternity instead of educating those who do not understand your God is purely evil because of that may as well worship satan.

[mado9111]

Thank you I am a Muslim.

And you are a fair person, I appreciate this.

[S00rabh]

I do not agree with point 2:233

Divorced men are responsible for there children. It fails on context of modern world.

[direvus]

ozmoroid, why do you hold "Do not commit usury (30:39)" to be a good principle? Usury simply means lending money for interest, no? While it's possible to lend money in a way that is unethical there's surely nothing inherently bad about it. I'm merely curious about your perspective in including this in your "good" list.

[jazzx251]

@direvus

... because it's exploiting poor people who need money.

Credit card companies are an excellent example. They deliberately target people who they know will always be unable to pay back the loan, but will continue paying endless amounts of interest.

Greed is bad. Capitalism - untempered - is bad.

[direvus]

@jazzx251 I did say "it's possible to lend money in way that is unethical", but clearly it isn't necessarily so. I have a credit card and am not exploited. It is actually very convenient for me. I also have a mortgage, without which it would have been entirely impossible for me to ever own a home. I am obviously not advocating for "untempered capitalism", but sensibly regulated moneylending is valuable and has its place. The quoted Quranic passage seems to ban it wholesale.

[ozmoroid]

@direvus I think of the term "usury" as "the lending of money at an exorbitant rate of interest." You are correct that it can also have the meaning of simply loaning money at interest, period. I'm against the former and not the latter.

[direvus]

@ozmoroid Understood, thanks for clarifying. I'd be interested to know which sense of 'usury' you think the verse in the Qu'ran was prohibiting. It would seem that some Muslim scholars think it means all moneylending of any kind (see Wikipedia "Islamic Banking"), and it is therefore forbidden by Sharia. Do you think this is a fair interpretation of the verse?

[ozmoroid]

@direvus In 3:130 it says "O you who believe, do not consume usury, compounding over and over" Some translations say "doubling and quadrupling." That leads me to believe usury is referring to exorbitant interest rates. But it's true that Sharia bans all interest. This is a subtle enough point that one would probably need to understand Arabic.

[direvus]

@ozmoroid Interesting.  Maybe in the time and place that was written, the only moneylending on offer was the exploitative variety.

Thanks for the video series ozmoroid, I found it very informative.

[MrMaverickOne]

Bravo!!! profitable investment of time in benign and constructive way.

[jazzx251]

lol 89:20

That's OPEC fucked then.

[saintpine]

It is best to give charity secretly (2.271)

This is something that also Christians treasure, it's something that It should translate something like, don't brag about your charity, it's your moral duty.

But unfortunately this leaves everyone to judge their own level of "their duty" ad does not allow others to give good advice when for instance a rich man gives enough to satisfy his conscious but would need some moral advice because he could sincerely and without sacrifice do much more.

[AL71313]

Cyrus the Great abolished slavery in Persia around 500BC.

Mohammad brought slavery back with Islam.

Mohammad had a coptic christian sex slave called Maria she gave him his only son Ibrahim who died before he reached 18 months.

Mohammad owned and traded in slaves one of his wives even killed one she was not punished for that.

Mohammad was a fraud.

[comslave]

I object to the koran you chose. Your concern should only have been for the most accurate translation, not the most pleasing. You were stacking the deck.

[ozmoroid]

@comslave I understand your point, but I've gotten different answers as to what the most accurate translation is.

[AL71313]

@ozmoroid

Ancient arabic does not translate well so use all 3 Yusefali,Pickthal and Shakir to get close.

It is not in chronological order it is all over the place so you have to read the hadiths to figure out when verses came out of mohammads mouth and put it in order.

The sunni are the majority so Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are the hadiths for them the shia follow a different hadith.

Nothing about stoning or niqab in the quran that along with prayer directions are in the hadith.

[Takaja316]

Hello, that was a very good video, i really do respect your honesty, but i think that you only touched on the most important thing, 'to whom does this good will actually apply? believers or non believers? As far as i know, all the verses that say to respect and love thy family are only applicable to family members who are muslim. This is proven by verse '[58.22]'

So it seems that non believers are treated as inferior.

[hugesinker]

Time for part II, The Shit!

Yeaysydhufhdih!!!!!!!

[jigglyfidda125]

Unfortunately, Islam as practised today, is more based on the hadith than the Quran, so a lot of these verses are often annuled.

Try read Sahih Bukhari, the most important book after Quran.

[gizliayetler]

It was great idea that you had. However the details were disappointing. Questionable methodology: strange and unscientific criteria for chosen translation: not wide acceptance, not accuracy, but personal liking of the message. Not sticking to stated methodology: e.g. You put "Quran" in 6:68 instead of using the stated translation "Our revelations". Ignoring orthodox interpretation: 20:2 the purpose of Quran is not to cause suffering, orthodox view is that these words were directed to Muhammad.

[malsifood]

so you think it is ok to kill in the name of justice?

It is never ok to kill!!!

So you think it is right to attack the way you have been attacked?

That means eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth!!

That is prehistoric bullshit!!

About the beggars and the poor: It woulld be correct and intelligent to ask for the following: Try to create a world without poverty and slavery!

Children: Way better: Never ever kill your children!

So in other words: Wrong translatons does not make it better!

[bardhb]

regarding the sura 2:233, I think you have misinterpreted it..

The father KEEPS the child if they part ways, and the mother has only the right to breast-feed the infant until he/she turns 2.. During this time the father has to compensate (give food and clothing to the ex-wife)... But this is it... It is not a positive Sura as it cements the Fathers right to keep the children, with only a temporary right of the Mother to breastfeed the child if it is under 2 years old.

[dimented24x7]

the claim that because the violent verses are later, they take precedence over the more peaceful verses, rendering them essentially null and void. This is something that should be kept in mind when looking for the good verses in the quran, as they may not necessarily still be applicable when taken as a whole. Essentially the same issue of context that one has whenever one takes singular passages from a holy book, whether they be good or bad.

[dimented24x7]

One thing thats worth mentioning is 2:106, which essentially states that earlier verses in the quran can be ammended, revised, or superceeded by later more applicable verses. This is especially true with the verses from Makkah, which mostly seem to be tolerant and fair as this was from the start of Muhammads career as a 'prophet'. There are later verses from the Medinah that are more violent and directly contradict what was said during the Makkah period. Because of 2:106, many make (cont.)

[ozmoroid]

@dimented24x7 That is a good point. There seems to be some controversy among Muslims regarding "abrogation." Some claim 2:106 refers to the Quran superseding other scriptures. Others have the interpretation you describe. Among those who think the Quran abrogates itself there seems to be disagreement about which verses are abrogated.

[ramio1983]

@ozmoroid No abrogation could only occur within context. For example you cannot abrogate a peaceful verse from peaceful times with peaceful people with a violent verse from violent times with violent people, that "abrogation" is simply a character assasination on the prophet, remember "there is no compulsion in religion" came in Medina during the prophets supposed "evil period".

[ozmoroid]

@ramio1983 It seems that the concept of abrogation is quite controversial. I've seen some Muslims say that since the Qur'an is perfect the claim of abrogation is absurd. Other Muslims seem to think that there is a "science" to understanding all the complications of abrogation doctrine.

[ramio1983]

@ozmoroid I think abrogation could occur only within certain situations, but i dislike it when people say all the peaceful verses have been abrogated by the "verse of the sword". I think its fair to say the violent/aggressive verses are only to be used in violent/hostile environments (aka- war) which is waged on Muslims whilst the peaceful verses are to be used in peaceful environments (which is what most Muslims in the west live with). Hence terrorists have it hell wrong.

[AL71313]

@ramio1983

Abrogation only applies when there are conflicting verses in that supposedly perfect book the earlier verse is then discarded.

Dar al Harb = land of war or non Islamic land.

The mullah Zakir Naik says Osama is just following the Quran it tells you to follow the example set by Mohammad.Youtube search "Zakir Naik every muslim should be a terrorist"

The Quran has a word for moderate muslims it calls them Hypocrites.

[ConsideringPhlebas]

@ozmoroid

Abrogation is not really controversial among the scholars of orthodox Islam, who have a consensus on its occurrence. It's the Mu'tazilite sect that rejects abrogation.

There is some dispute about what verses are abrogated, or what it means for a verse to be abrogated, or exactly how many verses are abrogated, but its understood to have occurred. If you're interested, google 'Ma'ariful Qur'an,' and see volume 1 pp. 284-5, on Q. 2:106.

[AL71313]

@ramio1983

When you have 2 conflicting verses the later one is used and the earlier one discarded.

You must know the chronology of the verses to know which one to apply.

Quran 16:67 allows alcohol yet we all know muslims dont drink alcohol google "quran 16:67" and see if they tell you its an earlier verse.

If there is no compulsion in religion then why is there a death penalty for apostasy?

councilofexmuslims(dot)com

[aSkepticalTruth]

When are you going to make part 3? This is really interesting.

[dilmo22]

Where is the bad?

[chucka59]

wow,all the hate! I'm not bias,and don't believe in any of the holy books,but have to say,the qur'an is a good book ,as like the rest of the holy books,but with this said...it is so sad,that god himself could come and tell you the truth,and you would call god a lier,but your all to set in your ways that you blind yourself from the truth!!....get over yourselves people!!.......BTW....awesome presentation

[colourmegone]

So few points from such a large body of scripture. Are you going to do the same for the accompanying texts? I have found the first two videos in this series very interesting, thanks for posting them.

[enotdetcelfer]

Just a quick point to note as a linguist, the passage says "pious is the one who gives money... ...to free the slaves.."; It doesn't say to free the slaves specifically (XP).

[macforfun006]

When is your next video comin up about this..??

[iBegToDiffer]

a muslim, a few points-

1. i have a problem with your standard of good. good is, what is "positive from the point of view of a 21st century secular humanist", specifically yourself. that's fine- but bias. this is essentially a standard revolving your own personal preference and values. this now becomes an exercise in "how much ozmoroid likes the Quran". that's not at all academic (even quasi). and it's not balanced.

[iBegToDiffer]

@iBegToDiffer

2. i don't think you are being consistent in applying your standard. you have supposedly read the whole Quran, but, following your pattern you should have mentioned these verses 25:63, 7:199, 28:55, 49:11, 3:134, 5:13, 2:188, 42:37, 8:61, 4:58 to name a few as "good teachings". why are they left out?

3. finally, you don't adequately represent the proportion of "good" as it is mentioned/ presented in the Quran. a specific good, you have mentioned, like giving charity...

[iBegToDiffer]

@iBegToDiffer cont'd...

could have been repeated/ stressed throughout the Quran. for example giving charity is repeated many times (in just one surah , it's mentioned at least 7 times- 2:3, 2:43, 2:110, 2:195, 2:254, 2:267, 2:277). so long as frequency/ amount of times some "good" teaching not mentioned, and you only list it once, you are not adequately representing the scope or proportion "good" in the Quran.

so i have a problem with: standard, consistency, and scope in your methodology.

[ozmoroid]

@iBegToDiffer "supposedly read the whole Qur'an..." Yes, I did indeed read the whole Qur'an, but "thanks" for questioning my honesty. Is that an example of a Muslim "good." I only listed one example of each "good." I will only list one example of each "bad" also when I get to that video. "Following your pattern" - you don't understand my pattern, apparently.

[iBegToDiffer]

@ozmoroid these verses are roughly in the same light/ theme as the others which you deemed to be appropriate/ compatible for a "21st century secular society", so i think i was following your pattern, roughly.

anyway- you can understand my concern over you leaving out huge chunks of the "good". going into this with, perhaps, already negative perceptions of Islam it's very easy for you to dismiss things that don't easily fit the concepts/ constraints your already working from.

[iBegToDiffer]

@iBegToDiffer it's easy for you to overlook huge chunks of new or repeated "good" in the Quran- but I wonder if you will be so easy as to overlook the "bad" or draconian or seemingly "incompatible", as, they fit more easily into your negative preconceptions. i'm just trying to point out what i think are some biases that can harm the validity or balance of your conclusions.

[iBegToDiffer]

@iBegToDiffer i feel like i'm detecting some bias (and obviously i come from my own angle- i don't expect you or myself, or any human to ever truly be "objective") and i'm just pointing them out. cheers.

[whybag]

@iBegToDiffer You've made it apparent you didn't, and he even responded directly and said there was one example of the "good" in this video (charity, honesty, modesty, piety, etc.) and you still argue "But you're only showing one example" at the same time as "I think I was following your pattern."

And "But you're biased" as well, can't forget that.

[iBegToDiffer]

@whybag my problem is

1. he didn't site *different* kinds of "goods" which i pointed out, which is inconsistent

2. if goods which are repeated are not mentioned, you don't get the scope of good in the Quran.i understand why this is impractical for his video- he doesn't have the time/ space or w/e, but it makes a difference.

if giving charity is asked/emphasized once or asked/ emphasized 100x in the Quran: this reflects differently on the book as a whole. it's an important distinction.

[ozmoroid]

@iBegToDiffer No, it's not how much I personally like the Qur'an, but how compatible I find it to be with 21st cent. secular society. That's my standard here. And that's not simply my personal preference, it the preference of the great majority of citizens of western democracies. 

[Takaja316]

@iBegToDiffer no, he said that 'good' was based on his humanist philosophy, which is basically the philosophy of most western countries, and successful countries.

[rubinood]

Respectable effort, ozmoroid. And not at all dry :)

[JRBendixen]

I find it funny that you have no video responses to this video.

[JRBendixen]

The "commands" are very good, but as vague as to be meaningless. They leave so many questions as all 6 billion interpretations are all well and fine. For me they are next to useless, unless I count our upbringing of our 2 month old child :)

I mean quote: "speak was is best". Well it depends on the audience, facts, situation, goals or the weather(I´m danish and it rains a lot here) ect ect. So again it is utter useless.

[JRBendixen]

@JRBendixen I´m sry to say that I really do not see any wisdom in most of it. It all comes down to the interpreter. Nephelimfree could agree with most of it, if not all. That thought alone makes me shiver.

Simplicity is mostly the menace of progress.

And ho ho ho ho, has any muslim responded. I would find it intriguing if dawahfilms would make some comments on your series.

[wordavee]

A much superiour set of laws than you find in the bible!!!

[TheRationalizer]

I note how in the progressive version you free slaves rather than "those maintained by your oaths".

Also how 6:151 and 17:33 allow murder for "justice" rather than defence (eye for an eye.)

Did you also check which verses are considered abrogated (such as 2:256)?

5:32 Is simply taken from the Talmud, let me know if you want the references.

I like your approach, I'm looking forward to part 3 :)

[bbclub]

In regards to the verse adressing the People of Israel, it is as valid to muslims as it was to the jews and its made clear in the following verse which you must have overlooked. "And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]." Surah 2:Verse 4.

Peace be upon the readers and I pray that The God of Abraham guides those who in arrogance, ignorance or lack of knowledge have rejected the truth.

[ozmoroid]

@bbclub I'm aware of that passage. However there are other passages such as 16:124 which make it clear that not all things dictated for the Jews apply to Muslims, the Sabbath being one. This is why I am somewhat suspicious of the passage in question.

[easuter]

I expect you'll only get comments saying you've misread the koran when you get to the bad bits. :-/

[yodaofhalo]

yes i tend to think that religious cherry pick the good and atheist the bad only! good job man

[ReverendWyrm]

@yodaofhalo Critics of religious doctrine exemplify negative attributes often in response to the claim of said doctrine being the "Absolute, unquestionable word of God". If the various religions were content with a live-and-let-live approach rather than the believe-or-die/burn in hell position I wonder if the stance of unbelievers might be different. You don't come across many atheist produced videos attacking Wicca or Buddhism for instance. All doctrine was written by humans and humans lie.

[AuntieDiluvian]

That was really interesting. Looking forward to more.

[XmarkedSpot]

Thank you very much ozmoroid, this seems to be the less biassed method in approaching "truth", at least on this platform.

My view towards religions was greatly influenced by R. P. Feynman:

Given that there is a metaphysical, an ethical and an inspirational aspect of religiousity; there is no answer to the problem of maintaining the real value of religion, as a source of strength and of courage to most men, while, at the same time, not requiring an absolute faith in the metaphysical aspects.

[RyuDarragh]

This does not address the Hadiffa (not sure if I spelled that right). Those hateful extra interpretations provided by the Mullahs are also a big problem.

[McTrico]

No one will be held accountable for the actions of another... That's some righteous shit right there! Christianity's original sin is even dissed by other religions...!

[p3st0lino]

Quite honestly the things in this book that you describe as "good" are hardly anything special. They are mostly given things that stem from the simple equation if you want to be treated good and with respect you should treat other people good and with respect. Nothing ground braking here.

[cantoon911]

people of Israel are used an example nothing more if anyone has actually read the full surah below.

[ozmoroid]

@cantoon911 What isn't clear to me is whether or not it is meant to apply to Muslims as well. I suspect not, but I want to find out what practicing Muslims think.

[cantoon911]

@ozmoroid These kind of examples are used quite often. Because Israel has the most known prophets more passages of the Quran refer to these people. It does actually apply to muslims as well because we believe that christianity and judaism are basically from the same mould of Islam. Only difference is christianity and judaism have been altered. Kudos to you for actually looking deeper. : )

[moomoomamoo]

Although there is no real substitute for actually studying a religion personally, I have enjoyed your videos portraying religions. Your views seem realistic and very universal. It is as if you are able to listen to all sides of an argument and just say what you think of it all without actually going in the judgment calls of who is wrong or right / good or bad.

[okuma0kuma]

first video i seen describing good passages hope you maintain sanity though out the research ,so will there be a part 3 !?

[1971ojoalparche1971]

Of course all holy books across religions have an aspect of peace, and some of their doctrine is preferable for the collective good of humanity, but the reason all of them promote these values is because they are universally understood to be foundations for healthy societies, regardless of religion. No holy text can claim 'good morality' as their own.

[rationalmuscle]

(cont) Lastly, aside from the fact that no 'holy book' is needed for such wisdom (and I know you are not saying this), the fact that it's guarded as "law" makes even descent advice, like "giving unto the wayward" scary... or "honor your parents." What if your parents are Charlie and Sally Manson? Sadistic child molesters? Honor is EARNED in a rational world, not given through birth. That is the sickness of the Abrahamic religions: It's about blood in the end, not about justice.

Thanks!

[rationalmuscle]

Nice work Oz... one point in particular re: S2:177... the mention of the freedom of slaves. It 'is' ironic that this was ignored in Mohammad's very day. Anyway, at least it was written down by someone with a conscious, unlike 'anyone' in the OT or NT, including Jesus.

That said, these passages end similar: "Those are the truthful, righteous..." etc. Nonsense. Those are the 'reasonable'. Any descent human being does this naturally unless they were raised by sociopaths. (cont)

[MrLeedsman]

Glad you're doing this series. Looking forward to more.

[TheHomelessCripple]

The Quran has many good teaching that changed the way I view life, however I would never base my whole philosophy on this book (as there are many passages I personally disagree with), or any 1 book for that matter. I suggest everyone read this with an open mind and educate yourself. And remember to take what you like and leave what you don't.

[jkjkjij22]

i especially like the last section "freedom of religion"

i feel like next time something [another burn the qur'an day] comes up i can quote those areas

[cantoon911]

Surah 5:32 full passage. Because of what we ordained for the children of israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder or to spread mischief in the land -it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind.And indeed, there came to them our messengers with clear proofs,evidences and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits in the land!

[AtheistKharm]

Thanks for doing this.

[FreindlyRanger]

I love this Ozmoroid, I was looking forward to this since you said you'd do it. These old books are full of wisdom, it's a pity about the weirdos who've taken ownership, they've made Atheists of us.

[KylieTasticUK]

good work... very interesting

[blurglide]

I've heard that, when there are contradictions in the Koran & Haddith, whatever occurs later in the book (more recent) takes precedence, and that a lot of the "bad" stuff happens towards the later half. I'm interested to hear how that 'color's the message.

[sweatytoothmadman]

The Koran allows divorce? Wow that was a curve ball.

[okuma0kuma]

@sweatytoothmadman i think it is only the man that is allowed to divorce the wife she has some thing like 2 days to convince him not to ,she has right to take her cloths but unsure if any other possession is allowed meaning basically she become a homeless tramp ,i could imagine how the feminist's would protest to that ouch haha

[darkwhitedirewolf]

It is intersting that people feel they need a holybook to tell them not to kill, lie, cheat, or steal.

[AncientAtheist]

I don't have a problem with "the boastful" or "the arrogant" even as a secular humanist. I think it makes ME a small person to get hung up on those things. As long as "the arrogant" can back it up - no problem. None.

[darkchiron]

I think it'd be awesome if people in general just held up these kind of values.

[philhellenes]

Interesting and educational, and an excellent reference for future use. Thanks, Ozmoroid. If only there was only the good in there, and the Bible. They'd be a lot thinner, less mind-garbling, and maybe a genuine force for good. I didn't see an ethical principle I could not agree with, or respect, and in most cases (falteringly) try to live up to. Pity the good amounts to only a few pages (at best) in books so thick.

[AntiCitizenX]

At least the Qur'an condemns slavery.  You won't find THAT in the Bible.

[Bhurzum]

@AntiCitizenX Research "Islamic slave traders" and get back to us. Its ok, we'll wait...

[tremedar]

@Bhurzum It's in the book, unless the author of the passage(s) containing the condemnation of slavery directly contradicts himself elsewhere, at least part of the book is against slavery.

Clearly many muslims chose to ignore it, but that doesn't negate that the book was written with clearly anti-slavery intent.

[Bhurzum]

@tremedar Yup, I don't deny that the passage is there and indeed, on the surface, appears to condem slavery. But read on and you'll find numerous mention of slaves, slavery and slave trading. One sentence does not equal the entire book. Sadly, due to abrogation, you need a slide rule and the ready reckoner to understand the "end state" of the Qu'ran.

[KevinSolway]

@AntiCitizenX The Koran teaches that unbelievers should be "subjugated" - which sounds a lot like slavery to me. And that's when it doesn't say they should be killed,

[AntiCitizenX]

@KevinSolway

So slavery is both denounced and encouraged? I guess I should not be surprised. Does this mean we have a potential entry for the "contradiction" phase of the video series?

[ozmoroid]

@AntiCitizenX There will definitely be a contradiction vid. There's no way to read the Qur'an without coming up with a long list of those.

[AntiCitizenX]

@ozmoroid

Awesome! I look forward to it. 

[JesusCockInAllahAss]

The only part of this I disagree with comes towards the end when you speak hypothetically about progressive Muslims, cherry picking and being well adjusted. While I take on board everything that you said preceding these statements, ultimately, I cannot see how anyone can be considered either 'progressive' or 'well adjusted' if they are still adhering to the premise of cosmic babysitter. Also, as Dawkins has often pointed out, if they DO cherry pick, they do so from a secular derived morality.

[FreindlyRanger]

@JesusCockInAllahAss. Good point. How's things JCAA, haven't come across you for ages (ooh err missus).

[Wrath0fKhan]

Well done, ozmoroid! Did you as well dig a little deeper than just looking at the "face value" (of those verses)?

[ozmoroid]

@Wrath0fKhan I looked at other translations. What I did not want to do is dig into questions of how certain Muslims interpret these passages. Some of those interpretations (such as abrogation) are not universal in Islam and even controversial. All that's another issue. I just wanted to gain an understanding of what the Qur'an actually says.

[Wrath0fKhan]

@ozmoroid

"I just wanted to gain an understanding of what the Q actually says"

I see. However, it seems to me that sometimes its impossible to derive something like a "face-value", since one (literally) feels a specific verse is relating to some specific event we know almost nothing about (from that verse itself). We are only given something like an extraction (a rule, etc.). Yet to learn about the event itself (the relevance of the rule/commandment), we "have" to look into other sources, too.

[Wrath0fKhan]

@ozmoroid

"Some of those interpretations ... in Islam and even controversial"

I guess, one could put it that way. However, I dont think there is much room for interpretation in Islam. A whole body of "interpretations" was derived by early Muslim scholars in the subsequent centuries after the (alleged) revelation of the Quran. Muslims who value their traditions consider this issue closed. The more liberal ones are either living in exile in the "West" or in "hiding" (in their own countries).

[Wrath0fKhan]

@Wrath0fKhan

By "hiding" I mean to say those people cant for example openly show their skepticism, openly challenge the religious establishment, traditions, etc.

[Wrath0fKhan]

@ozmoroid

Last but not least, and I hope you really dont mind, dear ozmo, your approach will rather necessarily expose certain contradictions (in these Islamic teachings). I can vividly imagine that other people have already addressed this issue. Maybe you will do a special episode discussing those (contradictions). ;-)

Thanks for all your efforts!

[penvsword]

"don't go into a home in which you are not welcome"....hmmmm

could be taken as ...don't put minarets on swiss mosques...don't have mosques near ground zero...stay the fuck out of alabama...etc.

[Verrimgard]

When I was talking about bits from the Qur'an, the guy I was arguing with kept telling me that I was reading a bad translation, and that it doesn't translate well into English. I wonder if you'll get someone telling you that in response to the good things you've found. :/

Anyhow, I agree with pretty much all of that stuff you read off there. Cool video.

[BurntEngineOil]

So I've heard that later passages in the Qur'an supersede earlier passages (however those are measured). If so, do you have any idea if some of these override "bad stuff", or are overridden by "bad stuff"?

[krunk1980]

Very interesting! I especially enjoyed the part about if people make fun of the qur'an then turn away. Isn't it amazing that after the fatwas on cartoonists and critics of Islam (some successful ie theo van gogh) that I've never ONCE heard a moderate Muslim quote it to curb violence. I have to disagree with some of the suggestions of countering violence with more violence as good. Also there are some pretty subjective words, like not to be vile.

[AlmightyAtheismo]

"Conjecture is no substitute for truth"

LOL

[ozmoroid]

@AlmightyAtheismo Yeah, that is pretty damned funny.

[symelian]

@ozmoroid that one made me laugh out loud :)

[TheMathKing]

@AlmightyAtheismo Oh, I get the joke now.

[RaymondCorrigan]

Good job, very insightful. Seems like they were trying to fill in the holes left out by the bible.

[goneutt]

Hit man, if I could pay enough attention I'd give feedback, but you wiped me out.

[Bhurzum]

This is all very good but falls down for one main reason: The teachings of the Qu'ran are intended for Muslims interacting with other Muslims. IE: "Be kind to orphans" should read "Be kind to Muslim orphans" etc. This is the interpretation 99% of Muslims apply to it. I'm gonna draw flak for saying that but it has to be said!

Oh, and you're being too harsh on yourself Oz, this video is not "dry" or "quasi-academic" at all. "Honest" or "open minded" would probably be a better description.

[williamcardno]

@Bhurzum i'd be interested to know where you're drawing that 99% from. i do not know a single muslim that would agree with that proposition in the slightest.

[Bhurzum]

@williamcardno Define "Muslim" and then we'll talk. I've spent a LOT of time in Muslim countries and am quietly confident that our definitions will differ. Oh, and lets not forget good old "Takeyya" and its usage.

[williamcardno]

@Bhurzum so you're going to dodge my question? like i thought, you pulled that 99% out of your ass. that's all you had to say.

[Bhurzum]

@williamcardno I dodged nothing. Since you appear to be blind, allow me to continue with my point minus your interaction. I have lived/worked in many Muslim controlled countries, have interacted with people from all walks of life therein and spent a great deal of time having meaningfull discourse with them. The general concensus is as follows: If you do not follow the teachings of Islam 100% to the letter then you simply aren't a Muslim. This comes from rich men, poor men and the middle crowd.

[Bhurzum]

@Bhurzum To continue...

"Moderate Muslims" are viewed with a mixture of dismay, contempt and even hostility. By "moderate Muslims" I mean people who follow *some* Islamic policies but not all. This is from first-hand experience working and living with Muslims in places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Serbo-Croatia (During the unrest) etc and over the span of 20+ years. Please, don't even try to deny or disprove my comments. I was there, I know!

99% of Muslims is probably an underestimate.

[iBegToDiffer]

@Bhurzum 99% is quite a hefty number to pull out of the air. please, do not attempt to speak for all muslims, based on your limited interactions with some muslims.

- a muslim

[Bhurzum]

@iBegToDiffer Um..."limited interactions" and "pulled out of the air" do not apply.

I spent years living/working shoulder to shoulder with muslims in a muslim country.

I'm struggling to think of more than one muslim to didn't fall into the 99% during the entirety of my stay. Men, women, children, young and old alike displayed nothing but barely concealed contempt/hatred for non-muslims.

But hey, go ahead and think what you want.

I'll go on KNOWING what I do.

[macforfun006]

@Bhurzum If you don't mind, can you please tell me which country?? I would like to know please..! Thnx

[Bhurzum]

@macforfun006

Iraq.

[macforfun006]

@Bhurzum You really shouldn't give your final word by your stay in Iraq y'know... Visit some other Muslim countries. I would invite you to come and visit Pakistan but BBC, FoxNews and CNN have definitely not put the best of us on the screen. If you know what Im talikin about..! ;)

If, however, you do come sometime, let me know. Ill tell you all the places to visit. For starters, do check out the Northern Areas. Its heaven on earth..!

All the best man..!

[Bhurzum]

@macforfun006 A kind offer.

[iBegToDiffer]

@Bhurzum Again, a hefty number like 99% is not to be flung around. Did you take a survey or something? Can I see the results? Otherwise, your making a heavy assumptions and inclining towards the extreme/ dramatic with numbers like that.

And again, I stress limited interaction. Supposing this is the case, 99% of Muslims somewhere believe this (which I find hard to believe) it represents some Muslims in a certain country/ place/ culture, it doesn't represent all or even most of us.

[Bhurzum]

@iBegToDiffer

You're either a troll or just plain ignorant.

You were not there, you have ZERO idea of what my experiences were and yet for some insane reason think you can school me on my own time in the middle east?

Almost EVERY muslim I spoke with on the subject had nothing (NOTHING) good to say about the west, non-muslims or "moderate" muslims. I say "almost" every muslim, I'm genuinely struggling to think of ONE who didn't fall into this catagory.

I'm done with you.

[commsky]

@iBegToDiffer What whybag said, one example of you're supposed to be charitable is enough or you're not supposed to steal is enough. If we sited every time one of the ten commandments was used in the bible that would be a little ridiculous and the same applies to the Quran

[iBegToDiffer]

@commsky take a look @ my response to whybag

when trying to analyze and interpret something, repetition and emphasis are important to understanding the work/ scripture etc. as a whole.

sure, Christians looking at their Bible may see all the ten commandments as being equal. but for people analyzing the scripture, if they see that certain commandments are repeated and emphasized throughout the bible- and others are not, this reflects differently on the themes/ aims etc. of the book as a whole.

[iBegToDiffer]

@iBegToDiffer further,

some Christians themselves may see the emphasis and repetition of certain commandments throughout the Bible as reflecting on the importance of these specific commandments over others, thus *not* making the ten commandments equal- but hierarchical in order of the most important, the most emphasized, over others.

so you can see why this is important.

[whybag]

@iBegToDiffer I know you're just trying to be contrarian and say "But look at all these other good examples!" But what do you mean *different* goods? He's making a list of "virtues" that he would feel good having applied and are acceptable in society today.

Just pointing out "these are good messages" not "there's a thousand good passages for 5 messages" isn't biased. For applicability in society, I'm sure he'll find dozens of bad cases, and only point out the highlights like he did here.

[iBegToDiffer]

@whybag sorry, i realize i didn't respond to this

different goods as in different precepts/ instructions that God commands. pretty much, goods i thought were distinct enough to also be mentioned.

[Fjarhultian]

@Bhurzum I believe Oz means something like the following. "Having no adornment or coloration; plain: the dry facts. Matter-of-fact or indifferent in manner: rattled off the facts in a dry mechanical tone. Devoid of bias or personal concern: presented a dry critique."

As for quasi-academic, I'd say it's close enough to an academical tone. Certainly close enough to a casual academical tone.

But this is not important and can freely be ignored.

[fractal420]

Excellent series, definitely looking forward to the next one.

[wakeangel2001]

I'm curious as to where in the koran this good stuff comes from, because I heard that the early half of the book is all nice and stuff and the war and conquest stuff is in the later chapters, kind of how in the bible most of the wrathful petty god is in the old testament while the new testament has a more even tempered deity.

[CharBroiled04]

@wakeangel2001

There's no need to wonder where it is in the Qu'ran... Ozmoroid listed all of the locations in this video (i.e. 5:32 is book 5, section 32).

Well done Ozmoroid. This gives me more hope than you know.

[sum1unxpected]

awesome!

i love your impartiality ^_^