I’m not an atheist, but am a former evangelical Christian. That's where I found dispair. I did what many don’t seem to--studied the Bible and the essential doctrines of the faith. When Ted Bundy made a profession of faith days before his execution, it occurred to me that according to my doctrines he could receive Jesus’ vicarious atonement and be forever with God. However, if his 12-year-old victim, Lynette Culver, had rejected it she would be forever in hell. That made me despair.
I say "stop dwelling on that stuff and just live your life". But if you must know, it is still easy. Being happy with my family gives me meaning. Preparing my children for their future thereby my future generations gives meaning to my life. Continuing my species to evolve and move beyond stars, to continue to be better, gives me meaning. I at least have meaning that is not waisted.
In first realizing the full extent of what it meant to be an atheist. I went through what Russell articulated so beautifully. While I may not have the words to describe it as he did, he completely explained how it feels to go from theism to atheism.
@creepyoldman2 Hmm, I haven't experienced that, maybe because I was never a believer to begin with. What if our purpose is to be human(what ever we choose)?
@creepyoldman2 Let me rephrase that, a strong believer. I never liked going to a y gious meetings or reading religious literature(unless I wanted to) and it never made sense logically or morally, I guess I was a subconcious atheist lol.
@SQuiRR3LM0nk3y I didn't have good reasons. At all. It was education that killed my theism. When I was young enough to not know how to reason against it effectively, it was convincing.
getting on with life means that you live life like it has meaning , or do you live a meaningless life? To get on with life and at the same time accept that there is no meaning to it, is delusional.
Which is fine actually. We dont live because it is logical, we live because we want to.
We all live in one sort of delusion which can help us deal with life.
The purpose of all life is to perpetuate itself. Humans are alive. The purpose of human existence is to perpetuate itself.
Speaking for myself, I never experienced the "despair" or awful encounter of the soul. I had long ago realized that I was going to die, God or no God. In fact I experienced quite a relief that I was not the slave of some supernatural tyrant.
I was expecting to hear, that the reason God was created by human mind is because of that fear of despair...however it was said so subtly -probably because you try to convince ppl to not despair- that probably doesn't count as being said at all. Which makes me think, would I force someone afraid of the dark into a dark room? Not sure if I would...but good video.
I have no idea what your faith life was like, but may I ask, how mature were you in your faith life? How deep into your faith, specifically Catholic, did you go? Did you continue learning past high school? Did you study and read and continue to explore?
All of the ex-Catholics I know, did not study past high school and really do not know the faith. I would imagine much is the same for any other Christian denomination.
@ProfMTH Have you read "Dark Night of the Soul?" What about the stories of Mother Therese and the account of her struggles from her diary? What was your "encounter with the outer world?" Why was your faith "wreckage?" What was the source of your despair? What the the "truth" you discovered.
@munari1976 "Have you read "Dark Night of the Soul?"" Yes. "What about the stories of Mother Therese and the account of her struggles from her diary?" Yes. "What was your "encounter with the outer world?"" Explained in the video. "Why was your faith "wreckage?"" Explained in the vid. "What was the source of your despair?" Explained in the vid. "What the the "truth" you discovered." Explained in the vid. Among the truths I discovered is that there is no god.
@ProfMTH In order to make a proclamation that there is no God, you are in fact declaring yourself God. You can say "I believe there is no God" or "I think there is no God," but saying "There is no God," is making a statement of omniscience, which is a characteristic of God, and only of God. Therefore, you state you're God. But, believing there is not God or thinking there is no God does not make it true. It's just your thought or belief, not (necessarily) reality.
@ProfMTH As for those things being explained in the video... I don't know. You mention them, go into some detail about the universe being without purpose (but give no evidence), chaotic (which there is plenty of contrary evidence), and unintentional (again, no evidence).
I guess the source of your despair was a lack of meaning? But, I was wondering, what led to this lack of meaning? If that's getting to personal for a blog post, I understand. If you don't mind sharing off board, that's cool too
@ProfMTH Finally, I guess I'm wondering, why does passing through the gate of despair necessitate an abandonment of the faith? Why can the faith not be a support to getting through the gate? I don't see how they're mutually exclusive.
@munari1976 "In order to make a proclamation that there is no God, you are in fact declaring yourself God."
lol Such nonsense, really. I'll be more precise (though it surprises me that you actually need this spelled out). I'm quite aware of the fact that one cannot know beyond all doubt that there is no god. However, since the likelihood of a god existing seems to me extremely low, I'm comfortable saying there is no god in much the same way that I'm comfortable saying that the sun...
(con't) @munari1976 ...will rise tomorrow even though it is *possible* (though extremely unlikely) that something could occur that would prevent that from happening.
"I guess the source of your despair was a lack of meaning?"
No. It seems you weren't paying attention. Too busy trying to fit my story into your preexisting categories about people who leave religious faith perhaps? My despair was the result of coming to the conclusion that there was no god. I found it quite distressing...
(con't) @munari1976 ..., but eventually came to terms with it.
"Finally, I guess I'm wondering, why does passing through the gate of despair necessitate an abandonment of the faith?"
Don't get lost in the metaphor. As I explained in the video, by the time I had reached "the gate," religious faith was no longer a viable option for me. I don't exclude the possibility that others might be able to go back to embrace religious belief once again. It wasn't my experience.
@ProfMTH No, it's not nonsense. I've met atheists that have made the claim, just like you, and meant it completely. I'm glad you at least acknowledge there's a possibility God exists, even though you find it slim. However, this gets partly at one of our other video discussions, taking things literally. Should I not take you literally? You said the sun rises... but I'm sure you know it really doesn't?
(resume) No, I wasn't trying to fit you into anything. I guess my next question would be, what led you to the conclusion that God does not exist? The universe and it's vastness. Our seemingly insignificant lives?
@ProfMTH No, I think I got it, it just wasn't compelling. You mention no order. But, there is a ton of order in the universe. No purpose? You can't know that or not. That's a belief, not a fact. And, "embrace the truth" and say there is no God. Not to retread, but that's a pretty definitive "there is no God." And, you seemed small and insignificant, encountered despair, and came to conclusion there is no God. Is this it, or did I miss a big part?
@ProfMTH "However, since the likelihood of a god existing seems to me extremely low, I'm comfortable saying there is no god in...
I often add a further statement. "There is no god... because I see no good reason for such a being." Sure, there are a myriad of reasons for a belief in god but they're incoherent/meaningless and don't approach reality in any way. These reasons require a mental schism of too great a magnitude to ignore if one wants to approach life honestly in light of reality.
I, as a theist, disagree with veritas. If there were no God, how would that effect my daily life? Well, that depends on the kind of person I am. If I'm a good person, I'm going to live my life as a I do. God or no God does not determine my choice to steal or not.
If I knew there was no God, and my life would one day end and nothing happens after wards, oh well. Live my life to the best of my ability and the best I can. Life is what you make, whether theist or atheist.
@ ProfMTH Whenever theists present the objective purpose argument as a reason to believe in God, I always ask: “Even if we were to presuppose a God exists, what makes you think that you, the Church, or any holy book can know what a divine mind wants? I mean no one can even read what their fellow neighbor’s intentions truly are, so how do you know about a mind that transcends this world?” It is at this point that invariably, they verbally fumble, stutter, and look bewildered.
@alphacause "Great video. The longing that theists have for 'objective purpose' strikes me as the equivalent of a free people asking to be governed by a totalitarian regime. Asking for some external agent (i.e. God) to impute purpose to you is the very embodiment of servility."
@ ProfMTH Great video. The longing that theists have for "objective purpose" strikes me as the equivalent of a free people asking to be governed by a totalitarian regime. Asking for some external agent (i.e. God) to impute purpose to you is the very embodiment of servility. We are the ones who give our lives meaning, and given the individual unique strengths, talents, and temperaments of people, it makes sense that what gives a person meaning would vary markedly among different people.
I also have not read Russel, but I feel I may liken this to my philosophy teacher's suggestion that, beyond any kind of absolute meaning, one makes meaning in there own life for themselves. At least, this is my assumption for what one would do after "accepting and moving on with life". My problem with this is, anything beyond that gate is merely ignoring the truth and filling the time. I have found that to be purely truthful, there is only despair and distractions.
I haven't read Russel but I think I'd better. The gate analogy describes my experience pretty well. I got to the gate well before I lost my faith, and by the time I admitted to myself that I just didn't believe anymore I was already through. It's funny, you spend so much time fearing what's on the other side, and when you get there it's not really that different. Though you can see a little better without those blinkers on.
great channel and great work...let us face reality with stoicism and a solidarity with our fellow mortal humans. Perhaps in facing death instead of suppressing through religion or other memes to control death we will grow a compassion for each other in our common mortality. Unyielding compassion for our dilemma. "Whatever you do crush this infamy(superstition) " Voltaire
Frankley the idea that an all powerfull, all seeing, all knowing, psycopath with a hard on for genocide and baby killing is watching over me, scares the crap out of me.
Personaly I find the relization that there are no gods a great relief!
What makes baby killing and genocide wrong or more correct than not killing babies or other people? Are hyenas and lions "wrong" when they kill each other? Are they acting "incorrect"?
Prof, love this video. I appreciated the honesty with which you presented what must have been a difficult portion of your journey towards your current paradigm. I too went through something similar when I came out to myself and found myself shouting/arguing with God on the mall of my college campus (I think I won that argument and told God to go away, I didn't need him). Afterwards, I had to struggle with my own purpose in life, and found that to be a gay atheist is very freeing for my future.
There was some sort of problem with my audio recording at the time, DasMustafah, and while I've been able to fix it since, I know of no way to fix the videos impacted by the problem (short of deleting, rerecording, and reuploading them, which I have neither the time nor the inclination to do).
ProfMth, there are a handful of videos that I only hear in the left channel of my audio. I know this isn't any fault of youtubers, but do you know of any fixes?
This video improves with repeat viewings! *Great* ending too -- "I wouldn't refuse to dance merely because I know that the music will eventually stop." If I ever write a novel I'll have to "borrow" that line.
(That is, Stealing + Giving Credit to ProfMTH =, I think, "Borrowing.")
> I'd just be happy to see it on the novel's cover
Further to the subjects of novels and loss of faith, if you know of any good novels that follow a person's loss of faith, please let me know.
I know of novels that touch upon atheism in general (Bros. Karamazov, etc.) and non-fiction books about losing faith (From Preacher to Atheist, etc. ), but I don't know of any fiction books that focus on that transition.
Dancing to music and life are not the same though. Even if the music ends, you can dance again some day, and still have memories of dancing. A better anology would be "Would you spend years reading the biggest and greatest book ever written from beginning to end if you knew as soon as you read the last page the book would poof out of existence and your mind erased of all you just read?" I know I wouldn't. It would be a waste of time.
> A better anology would be "Would you spend years reading the biggest and greatest book ever written
Perhaps ... but I also don't think the phrase "the greatest book ever written" should be used when making analogies about the Bible. At the risk of sounding like a shameless self-promoter, I have a video series on that subject called "Four reasons why the Bible is not the greatest story ever told" (watch?v=mrkE_jD9Ymw).
To atheists,skeptics,agnostics and all who accept the universe as "cold",bleak" or at best "indifferent" - and IN SPITE of these facts find the strength and courage to live a noble life and to appreciate the simple thing - the incredible chance to be alive...who try to enjoy life no matter what kind of the universe we find ourselves in...and help others to enjoy their lives...to all such people I say: I ADMIRE YOU,GUYS!I APPLAUD YOU!I AM WITH YOU!
Prof,I was impressed how by the words of the one of the RELIGIOUS scientist,J.Polkinghorne,where he debated S.Weinberg , Weinberg was asked by the audience,"what is the point of living in a universe with no ultimate purpose?".
Weinberg replied,and Polkinghorne added: "some of us entertain that hope that the murderer will not ultimately triumph. But those that cant entertain that hope and who live a sort of, if I might say so, a life of austere nobility in the face of a hostile world, I think that is a very - I think it is mistaken but that it is an admirable position to hold, if I may say so."
I'm on the Weinberg 's side in this debate,but I like how Polkinghone concluded.
Wow! I guess I had it easy. I don't remember a time when I believed in any kind of deity. I do remember believing Santa was real though. Strange huh? I'm not in a hurry to die by any means but I don't think death is such a bad thing. Its not any different then before you were born. Other then you'll being leaving a corpse behind which will eventually return from where it came. It makes me think of the Eagles classic "Hotel California". "You can check out but you can never leave".
indeed i would say argumentum ad metum but i think you covered it :).
i think that the whole reason existentialism as a philosophy exists. all the people i know who agreed with it accepted that life is meaningless (objectively) and they chose what they felt was important to do with life.
Can't say I embraced the truth & got on w/ it at first. In 2000, I temporarily left the faith & spent 9 months in the "unyielding despair" of "Christian Nihilism" (a basic theistic worldview on morality, meaning, purpose minus belief in the theistic God.)
Came back 2 the faith & spent about 6 years "deconverting"... this time starting w/ the issues of morality & meaning etc (by accident actually) b4 facing the tough questions. Later left again w/ no despair 2 speak of ;)
Thanks for the comment, MIJ. It took me a while to get to the "get on with it" part. Mine was a process as yours was, although when I left, I didn't go back.
I'm still stuck at the gate of despair no matter how many times I think I've made it out of it. :( It was years since I rejected religion before I actually got to the "gate" but it's been about a year since I've been there and it seems like my life is a just a hazy blur.
It can be a very tough spot to get out of, SubtleDemise. All I can tell you is that one *can* get out of it. Scott5878 has some good counsel in his comment.
Thanks. And my best wishes to you as you go through this.
I think I actually found some comfort in the insignificance of our existence in terms of the Universe. Probably one of the first things I did after losing religion was purchase the biggest telescope I could afford and stand in awe of the Universe as much as possible.
It makes having a bad day or period in life seem completely insignificant, if that makes any sense. It also magnifies the good things, family and friends, in the short blink of an eye life we get.
I think Neil deGrasse Tyson said it best in an episode of The Universe...........
"We are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically. Thats kinda cool! That makes me smile and I actually feel quite large at the end of that. Its not that we are better than the universe, we are part of the universe. We are in the universe and the universe is in us."
This video is funny for me. It certainly helps me understand believers better.
I've never felt any existential angst over religion. The (imagined) spectre of countless people over the ages making up different religions and acting as though they believe they're true is just too hilarious to coexist with angst of any kind.
The only way I could IMAGINE that life could ACTUALLY be seen as miserable would be if the WORST god of them all, yahweh, turned out to be really in charge!
What a wonderful video!I'd like to share my favorate Russel's quote"The universe is what it is, not what I choose that it should be. If it is indifferent to human desires, as it seems to be; if human life is a passing episode, hardly noticeable in the vastness of cosmic processes; if there is no superhuman purpose, and no hope of ultimate salvation, it is better to know and acknowledge this truth than to endeavor, in futile self-assertion, to order the universe to be what we find comfortable
(cont) "Towards facts, submission is the only rational attitude, but in the realm of ideals there is nothing to which to submit. Our individual life is brief, and perhaps the whole life of mankind will be brief if measured on an astronomical scale. But that is no reason for not living as seems best to us. The things that seem to us good are none the less good for not being eternal, and we should not ask of the universe an external approval of our own ethical standards."Bertrand Russell
The free thinker's universe may seem bleak and cold to those who have been accustomed to the comfortable indoor warmth of the Christian cosmology. But to those who have grown accustomed to it, it has its own sublimity, and confers its own joys. In learning to think freely we have learnt to thrust fear out of our thoughts, and this lesson, once learnt, brings a kind of peace which is impossible to the slave of hesitant and uncertain credulity."B.Russell "Value of Freethought"
Wow! To my surprise this video was actually quite good. I'm impressed. Your alternative doesn't really satisfy the existential problem (in any significant sense) but you totally nailed the part on fallaciously appealing to consequences as a reason to believe in the truth of some proposition.
However, I can't help but think that your "get on with it" solution is itself a delusion based on comfort, a comfort that deceptively pretends that there is true meaning in objectively meaningless things.
I'm not pretending about anything. I understand what "true meaning" actually is (and is not), and I'm OK with it. A delusion would be saying that meaning inheres in anything "out there."
As far as I'm concerned, that kid might as well be a slave arguing that, without his slave master, his life will have no meaning (except his own meaning, of course). He doesn't want to cast off his shackles, because he won't be guaranteed food and shelter for his work. He loves making his master happy, and that is the meaning of his life.
See, you can make both sides seem depressing. Pure athiesm is tough, and it wasn't a 1 step process.
this video (along w/ all profMTH's output) really encouraged me to reject appeals to consequence and examine what purpose could be found. watching again clarifies how quickly and proggressively the unyielding despair has been overcome.
i hope the prof includes the help he's given to people like me in his purpose and ultimate meaning.
"Accept the Universe as it is and get on with the business of living."
While I agree that this is an important part of it, I think one also has to realize the motivational absurdity of the previous belief system. This "Ultimate Meaning" that was clung to so desperately seems, to me, kind of silly and grandiose. (I often wonder why I was so fond of it while I was trying to maintain belief.)
This also, I think, makes it easier to embrace oneself as the giver of one's own morality and purposes.
Interesting video, I'm currently at the bench stage myself. Occasionally find the strength to pick myself up from it but it's growing harder each day. Watching all these different videos and reading various things is making me feel almost schizophrenic.
It's challenging, Jared, as you well know. But take it from someone who has been there: you *will* get through it. Go where the truth leads you. Thanks.
Excellent video. I have also been going through what you describe here so well. I am not fully there yet but am making progress. I so wanted to believe there was purpose and meaning to everything and no death ect, but then I realised I had no good reasons for believing any of the religious ideas I used to have. Now I can see things more as they really are, but am still not quite out of the despair bit due to having some quite serious life problems and regrets etc regarding situations that were..
partly caused by my former lack of ability to see things clearly as they really are and make sensible choices. By the way, one interest of mine now is in emerging sciences which are trying to extend - perhaps one day greatly or even indefinitely - human life. Do you think that's just a religion substutute and I should focus on life now and try to make peace with death - or do you find it an interesting possibility too?
I'm not aware of any meaningful hope that human beings are ever going to able escape death, Orlando. I can only tell you that in my own life I seek to make the most of the time I have and to make efforts to have as much time as possible.
I think that's the most sensible approach definitely. But there are reputable scientists today who think it may become possible to stop or even reverse biological aging, and in the process stop the major diseases caused by senescence as well. It is estimated the average lifespan would then be around 1,000. Some people also envisage human/computer interface situations - e.g. mind uploading - which might allow for literal immortality. The Methuselah Foundation is one of the most interesting bodies
It's interesting. I've been atheist my entire life but only really had this unyielding despair hit me hard about 18 months ago. Coupled with university stress and the usual teenage angst it floored me, quite literally. I'm only just regaining my feet (with the help of medication, which is not something I'm particularly proud of) but I do find it odd how it only afflicted me so much in that instance. I had fleeting moments of it during my earlier years but never to that extent. Great video.
Thanks a lot, Scotracer. And don't feel bad about your needing the assistane of some medication to get through it. No one feels bad about taking an antibiotic to combat an infection or blood pressure medication to deal with that malady. We are material beings who sometimes need to get our chemicals back in balance. :-)
Yes I suppose. It's just really grating since it meant I would graduate from university at the relatively old age of 21 rather than 19. It really did smart at the time but now, with time off I've been able to be more open within my own intellect and as a result become intelligent as a result. Funny how that is possible.
You are probably the best bible refuter on Youtube and I link your videos to many people - please, keep them up. BTW, what do you profess?
fck dude, this is your best ever. very, very substantiated. furthermore, when You ask theis to to give you their view of this purpose, man, it is like a hand granade that explodes in their hand. this purpose is even a worst fate than having none at all.
excellent video past through it all too, but then without religion i did find a purpose for my life, and started to value alot more my and the life of others
i love that my grandmother can watch profmth's w/ me when i try to explain why i won't take my kids to sunday school. you sound like 'such a nice young man'.
Great video. Thanks for the link to A Free Man's Worship.
What I find absolutely frustrating is that the journey that you took of going beyond the gate of despair is something that vast majority of the people are neither interested nor intellectually capable of doing.
The last 8 seconds of this video, in my opinion, sums it all up. Good job!
I find that the idea of an afterlife completely devalues our current lives. THAT is the flaw in religion! To absolutely value life, at its highest form, we should assume an afterlife does not exist.
Thanks for sharing that. I ditched religion a year ago or so, and I'm having a hard time transitioning from the belief that the universe was made for us and we have ultimate meaning to being an acknowledged member of the thin film of life that coats some parts of this tiny planet for the moment. Its good to have an idea of the way forward.
I can speak only from my experience, which, during my transition away from religious belief, involved a deep sense of despair at times. And, yes, it yielded. Some people tell me they never experienced despair; others say it came and went quickly; yet others say it seem never to go away -- one is reminded of Mother Teresa's own struggle with despair (and, of course, she was a believer). As for joy, one can only cover so much in a 10-minute video. Try making one some time; you'll see. ;-)
I actually never had anything that could be termed "despair", only a certain amount of anxiety over the conception of an afterlife.
Once I got over it (ie, once I came to the firm conclusion that there is no god, no soul, no afterlife), I gained a tremendous amount of peace. I find I'm living my life much more joyfully and "in the moment" than I did when I was either nominally a believer (I had doubts at age 8) or as a deep skeptic without my current level of certainty.
Just to clarify, I was christian once too, I didn't become agnostic or atheist all at once, there wasn't any cataclysmic event, death or bombshell that caused me to "change". It was just a process of thinking about everything in general.
To me the idea of no meaning in life is ultimately meaningless. Wether there is or isn't an afterlife won't change the fact that I'm living in the world and have alot of things I can do. Like you said, just because the music will stop, why shouldn't you dance?
Hey love the video, you have a strangely hypnotic narative that I can't help but listen right the way through to the end.
Question though, for you or anyone else that reads this. I would say I'm agnostic atheist I guess, in that I believe a creator or higher being or something we don't KNOW COULD possibly exist. It just doesn't seem very PROBABLE.
But why is the idea of no purpose, no meaning, no goal in life so horrible? What EXACTLY is bad about that?
Middlekk: So its purely an appeal to consequences thing? Its not that the thought of no purpose is frightening as much as the consequences of there not being one? Which, of course, MUST be terrible.
Personally, I always thought the idea of no purpose to be a wonderfully liberating one. Life doesn't NEED to mean anything, it just exists and we can enjoy every aspect of it, because its huge. That sounds pretty good to me.
It IS liberating to not be constantly looking over one's shoulder worrying about what invisible magic creatures might think not only of your behavior but your very thoughts.
Theists smile less, laugh less, enjoy life WAY less than atheists, because they're constantly worried about the post-life "consequences". Horribly stultifying way to live.
That doesn't, however, mean we're not responsible for our actions. We are; but only in the here and now.
I guess being atheist pretty much all my life (my parents weren't religious), i don't even understand the concept of BEING in despair over realizing there's most likely no god or order to the universe. It just sounds crazy to me - but maybe i'm not looking at it from the proper perspective - which would be that everything and anything i've been taught to believe was most likely a lie - then i guess i'd have to be a little glum for a while, figuring things out, but yah. Good last line!
Unfortunately I am pretty much stuck at #2 I occasionally seem to be able to remain in the realm of #3 multiple weeks (especially when I travel) but when "everyday life" kicks back number #2 seems to pull me back again. I loved your very last sentence though
This is one of those occasions when I wish I didn't give out so many 5 stars... or that there was a special 6th star. I have to join the others in giving you praise. Superb response! Keep it up.
I wanted to comment more last night but it was late...
I really do wish I had Russell to read when I was working out all this stuff on my own years ago. I can remember going through each and every stage noted. However, my unyeilding despair passed rather quickly and uneventfully. This, I believe was because I was never heavily indoctrinated with theism to begin with. I can only imagine what it must be like for those that were heavily indoctrinated...
I was raised Baptist. When I was about 11 years old, I told my mom I wasn't going to church anymore, much to her continuing dismay. Even at that early age (I am now 44 years old) I just knew that something was very wrong about the concept of religion. I wasn't buying it. The God of the old testament is by far and away the opposite of a moral and just being. God is vindictive, spiteful, jealous - more like a bad human than supreme being.
I am generally a pragmatic person so, my journey through the despair phase was intermittent as I studied more and more about the universe as a student right on through college. At 44, I now have a profound sense of how precious life is in the "here and now" and live my life to wonder and learn all that I can about all things knowable and to help my family, friends and community thrive. This sense is what drives me to be honest and moral so as not to deprive others.
For me, I revel in what I suppose you could call a love of non consequences. I live my life doing for others, myself, my family, my friends.. not for some dopey reward in a silly afterlife, but because if I don;t do it *here* and *now*, then when I die, who will ? The "Believers"? They'll pray mightily (and often). Some will do a bit here or there. But, many will want those I leave behind to "convert" before they do *anything*. "If God won't do it, then I damn well better do it myself!"
Great video! I'm also one for Nietzsche's "amor fati": the love of fate.
When I was a Christian I felt that this life had no meaning, and could not have any meaning, b/c in the end either we'd be burning in hell for all eternity, or in heaven knowing that many of the people we cared for and befriended were screaming in the agony of unending hellfire. FUCK THAT!!!!
I, myself, have not had the same experiences you have had; I grew up in a very secular household (i.e. we didn't practice anything). I never went to church and I never studied any form of religion (when I was younger; I have a pretty firm understanding now). I realized I was an atheist a few years back and that's just how it was. However, I do love this video and I think it's important for theists to see. Thank you for sharing your opinions; they are very well thought out.
I have to say, my emotional state of mind was one more of relief than of despair when I finally admitted to myself that I no longer believed. I always get the sense that I've stepped into Bizarro World when I see apologists telling me how they think I ought to have felt about it. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Prof....I love this video. Five stars. Bravo young man. It seems like, if you will forgive the poetic use of the word, a spiritual relative of Sagan's famous "pale blue dot" passage from the book of the same title.
I suppose it might be because I have not been a theist for a very long time, but I simply do no understand why theists insist the universe MUST have, to use Vertias' phrase, a "meta narrative" - and one that turns upon the fate of the human race alone.
My own sense is that often the insistence on universal meaning comes from an unwillingness to acknowledge, confront, and embrace the universe as it is. There are other factors, but I think that's often at the bottom of it all.
I’m not an atheist, but am a former evangelical Christian. That's where I found dispair. I did what many don’t seem to--studied the Bible and the essential doctrines of the faith. When Ted Bundy made a profession of faith days before his execution, it occurred to me that according to my doctrines he could receive Jesus’ vicarious atonement and be forever with God. However, if his 12-year-old victim, Lynette Culver, had rejected it she would be forever in hell. That made me despair.
Cathmoytura 5 months ago
I say "stop dwelling on that stuff and just live your life". But if you must know, it is still easy. Being happy with my family gives me meaning. Preparing my children for their future thereby my future generations gives meaning to my life. Continuing my species to evolve and move beyond stars, to continue to be better, gives me meaning. I at least have meaning that is not waisted.
Darthreloy 6 months ago
Just stumbled on this video. Am reading "Doubt: A HIstory" now, and was thrilled o see you reference it. good vid!
Hektor88 7 months ago
@Hektor88 Thanks! "Doubt" is one of my favorite books.
ProfMTH 7 months ago
Didn't he close his youtube account?
JamesJimRaynor 11 months ago
@JamesJimRaynor Veritas48 you mean? Yes, he did.
ProfMTH 11 months ago
@ProfMTH Why'd he do that?
JamesJimRaynor 11 months ago
@JamesJimRaynor He'd had a number of significant hassles on here from someone and decided that he didn't want to put up with it any longer.
ProfMTH 10 months ago
he believes in god only...because he wants to/
unassumption 1 year ago
Awesome video. I loved the story of your personal journey.
gibozzo 1 year ago
@gibozzo Thanks.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
How can veritas' life have meaning when he didn't decide it, assuming a god exists?
SQuiRR3LM0nk3y 1 year ago
excellent video!
bloodynoes 1 year ago
@bloodynoes Thanks.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
In first realizing the full extent of what it meant to be an atheist. I went through what Russell articulated so beautifully. While I may not have the words to describe it as he did, he completely explained how it feels to go from theism to atheism.
creepyoldman2 1 year ago
@creepyoldman2 Hmm, I haven't experienced that, maybe because I was never a believer to begin with. What if our purpose is to be human(what ever we choose)?
SQuiRR3LM0nk3y 1 year ago
@creepyoldman2 Let me rephrase that, a strong believer. I never liked going to a y gious meetings or reading religious literature(unless I wanted to) and it never made sense logically or morally, I guess I was a subconcious atheist lol.
SQuiRR3LM0nk3y 1 year ago
@SQuiRR3LM0nk3y I didn't have good reasons. At all. It was education that killed my theism. When I was young enough to not know how to reason against it effectively, it was convincing.
creepyoldman2 1 year ago
getting on with life means that you live life like it has meaning , or do you live a meaningless life? To get on with life and at the same time accept that there is no meaning to it, is delusional.
Which is fine actually. We dont live because it is logical, we live because we want to.
We all live in one sort of delusion which can help us deal with life.
niinja2 1 year ago
The purpose of all life is to perpetuate itself. Humans are alive. The purpose of human existence is to perpetuate itself.
Speaking for myself, I never experienced the "despair" or awful encounter of the soul. I had long ago realized that I was going to die, God or no God. In fact I experienced quite a relief that I was not the slave of some supernatural tyrant.
Thanks Bertie Russell
drfoxcourt 1 year ago
I was expecting to hear, that the reason God was created by human mind is because of that fear of despair...however it was said so subtly -probably because you try to convince ppl to not despair- that probably doesn't count as being said at all. Which makes me think, would I force someone afraid of the dark into a dark room? Not sure if I would...but good video.
anest1s 1 year ago
I have no idea what your faith life was like, but may I ask, how mature were you in your faith life? How deep into your faith, specifically Catholic, did you go? Did you continue learning past high school? Did you study and read and continue to explore?
All of the ex-Catholics I know, did not study past high school and really do not know the faith. I would imagine much is the same for any other Christian denomination.
munari1976 1 year ago
@munari1976 I had a very deep faith life. VERY deep.
"All of the ex-Catholics I know, did not study past high school and really do not know the faith."
Well, I'm not like the ex-Catholics you know. Quite the opposite.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Have you read "Dark Night of the Soul?" What about the stories of Mother Therese and the account of her struggles from her diary? What was your "encounter with the outer world?" Why was your faith "wreckage?" What was the source of your despair? What the the "truth" you discovered.
munari1976 1 year ago
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH In order to make a proclamation that there is no God, you are in fact declaring yourself God. You can say "I believe there is no God" or "I think there is no God," but saying "There is no God," is making a statement of omniscience, which is a characteristic of God, and only of God. Therefore, you state you're God. But, believing there is not God or thinking there is no God does not make it true. It's just your thought or belief, not (necessarily) reality.
munari1976 1 year ago
@ProfMTH As for those things being explained in the video... I don't know. You mention them, go into some detail about the universe being without purpose (but give no evidence), chaotic (which there is plenty of contrary evidence), and unintentional (again, no evidence).
I guess the source of your despair was a lack of meaning? But, I was wondering, what led to this lack of meaning? If that's getting to personal for a blog post, I understand. If you don't mind sharing off board, that's cool too
munari1976 1 year ago
@ProfMTH Finally, I guess I'm wondering, why does passing through the gate of despair necessitate an abandonment of the faith? Why can the faith not be a support to getting through the gate? I don't see how they're mutually exclusive.
munari1976 1 year ago
@munari1976 "In order to make a proclamation that there is no God, you are in fact declaring yourself God."
lol Such nonsense, really. I'll be more precise (though it surprises me that you actually need this spelled out). I'm quite aware of the fact that one cannot know beyond all doubt that there is no god. However, since the likelihood of a god existing seems to me extremely low, I'm comfortable saying there is no god in much the same way that I'm comfortable saying that the sun...
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @munari1976 ...will rise tomorrow even though it is *possible* (though extremely unlikely) that something could occur that would prevent that from happening.
"I guess the source of your despair was a lack of meaning?"
No. It seems you weren't paying attention. Too busy trying to fit my story into your preexisting categories about people who leave religious faith perhaps? My despair was the result of coming to the conclusion that there was no god. I found it quite distressing...
ProfMTH 1 year ago
(con't) @munari1976 ..., but eventually came to terms with it.
"Finally, I guess I'm wondering, why does passing through the gate of despair necessitate an abandonment of the faith?"
Don't get lost in the metaphor. As I explained in the video, by the time I had reached "the gate," religious faith was no longer a viable option for me. I don't exclude the possibility that others might be able to go back to embrace religious belief once again. It wasn't my experience.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH No, it's not nonsense. I've met atheists that have made the claim, just like you, and meant it completely. I'm glad you at least acknowledge there's a possibility God exists, even though you find it slim. However, this gets partly at one of our other video discussions, taking things literally. Should I not take you literally? You said the sun rises... but I'm sure you know it really doesn't?
(cont)
munari1976 1 year ago
(resume) No, I wasn't trying to fit you into anything. I guess my next question would be, what led you to the conclusion that God does not exist? The universe and it's vastness. Our seemingly insignificant lives?
munari1976 1 year ago
@munari1976 " guess my next question would be, what led you to the conclusion that God does not exist?"
I talked about this in the videos. You watched all of them and got no sense of what led me to the conclusion that there is no god?
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ProfMTH No, I think I got it, it just wasn't compelling. You mention no order. But, there is a ton of order in the universe. No purpose? You can't know that or not. That's a belief, not a fact. And, "embrace the truth" and say there is no God. Not to retread, but that's a pretty definitive "there is no God." And, you seemed small and insignificant, encountered despair, and came to conclusion there is no God. Is this it, or did I miss a big part?
I guess I'm wondering, what came before this.
munari1976 1 year ago
@ProfMTH "However, since the likelihood of a god existing seems to me extremely low, I'm comfortable saying there is no god in...
I often add a further statement. "There is no god... because I see no good reason for such a being." Sure, there are a myriad of reasons for a belief in god but they're incoherent/meaningless and don't approach reality in any way. These reasons require a mental schism of too great a magnitude to ignore if one wants to approach life honestly in light of reality.
vryc 1 year ago
I, as a theist, disagree with veritas. If there were no God, how would that effect my daily life? Well, that depends on the kind of person I am. If I'm a good person, I'm going to live my life as a I do. God or no God does not determine my choice to steal or not.
If I knew there was no God, and my life would one day end and nothing happens after wards, oh well. Live my life to the best of my ability and the best I can. Life is what you make, whether theist or atheist.
munari1976 1 year ago
check out le rouchefoucauld's "maximes." the penguin edition.
fmandld 1 year ago
@ ProfMTH Whenever theists present the objective purpose argument as a reason to believe in God, I always ask: “Even if we were to presuppose a God exists, what makes you think that you, the Church, or any holy book can know what a divine mind wants? I mean no one can even read what their fellow neighbor’s intentions truly are, so how do you know about a mind that transcends this world?” It is at this point that invariably, they verbally fumble, stutter, and look bewildered.
alphacause 1 year ago
@alphacause "Great video. The longing that theists have for 'objective purpose' strikes me as the equivalent of a free people asking to be governed by a totalitarian regime. Asking for some external agent (i.e. God) to impute purpose to you is the very embodiment of servility."
Thanks. And I think that observation is spot on.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
@ ProfMTH Great video. The longing that theists have for "objective purpose" strikes me as the equivalent of a free people asking to be governed by a totalitarian regime. Asking for some external agent (i.e. God) to impute purpose to you is the very embodiment of servility. We are the ones who give our lives meaning, and given the individual unique strengths, talents, and temperaments of people, it makes sense that what gives a person meaning would vary markedly among different people.
alphacause 1 year ago
God is the source of ultimate morality, as he is ultimate authority and assigns ultimate roles to his creations
no one assigned him that role, so he had to create his own meaning, or meaning can be asssigned w/out authority
creating meaning leads to crushing despair
therefore, meaning is a product of crushing despair
arachnophile01 1 year ago
Great video. Very existential, I love it!
Youlube32 1 year ago
@Youlube32
Thanks!
ProfMTH 1 year ago
I also have not read Russel, but I feel I may liken this to my philosophy teacher's suggestion that, beyond any kind of absolute meaning, one makes meaning in there own life for themselves. At least, this is my assumption for what one would do after "accepting and moving on with life". My problem with this is, anything beyond that gate is merely ignoring the truth and filling the time. I have found that to be purely truthful, there is only despair and distractions.
Lee4444x 1 year ago
I haven't read Russel but I think I'd better. The gate analogy describes my experience pretty well. I got to the gate well before I lost my faith, and by the time I admitted to myself that I just didn't believe anymore I was already through. It's funny, you spend so much time fearing what's on the other side, and when you get there it's not really that different. Though you can see a little better without those blinkers on.
AbbeyNormal 2 years ago
great channel and great work...let us face reality with stoicism and a solidarity with our fellow mortal humans. Perhaps in facing death instead of suppressing through religion or other memes to control death we will grow a compassion for each other in our common mortality. Unyielding compassion for our dilemma. "Whatever you do crush this infamy(superstition) " Voltaire
pangeaprogressblog 2 years ago
@pangeaprogressblog
Indeed. Thanks very much.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
No god = despair? I don't get it!
Frankley the idea that an all powerfull, all seeing, all knowing, psycopath with a hard on for genocide and baby killing is watching over me, scares the crap out of me.
Personaly I find the relization that there are no gods a great relief!
SkyDoginthetube 2 years ago
@SkyDoginthetube
Ultimately, I did as well. But it took some time to get there. People have different experiences of all this.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
What makes baby killing and genocide wrong or more correct than not killing babies or other people? Are hyenas and lions "wrong" when they kill each other? Are they acting "incorrect"?
Fleefles 2 years ago
If you have to ask, you just might be a monster.
ExtantFrodo 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Fleefles
Seriousley!? "What makes baby killing and genocide wrong or more correct than not killing babies or other people?"
Is that ment to be a real question?
If you can't figure it out for yourself you seriousley need professional help!
SkyDoginthetube 2 years ago
Prof, love this video. I appreciated the honesty with which you presented what must have been a difficult portion of your journey towards your current paradigm. I too went through something similar when I came out to myself and found myself shouting/arguing with God on the mall of my college campus (I think I won that argument and told God to go away, I didn't need him). Afterwards, I had to struggle with my own purpose in life, and found that to be a gay atheist is very freeing for my future.
LaerenMisha 2 years ago
Hey, thanks for the nice words, LaerenMisha, and for sharing part of your story. :-)
ProfMTH 2 years ago
This vid is one that I only hear in left channel, in case my previous comment seemed irrelevant =/
DasMustafah 2 years ago
There was some sort of problem with my audio recording at the time, DasMustafah, and while I've been able to fix it since, I know of no way to fix the videos impacted by the problem (short of deleting, rerecording, and reuploading them, which I have neither the time nor the inclination to do).
ProfMTH 2 years ago
ProfMth, there are a handful of videos that I only hear in the left channel of my audio. I know this isn't any fault of youtubers, but do you know of any fixes?
DasMustafah 2 years ago
This video improves with repeat viewings! *Great* ending too -- "I wouldn't refuse to dance merely because I know that the music will eventually stop." If I ever write a novel I'll have to "borrow" that line.
(That is, Stealing + Giving Credit to ProfMTH =, I think, "Borrowing.")
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
LOL. Thanks, Todd. Borrow, steal, whatever. I'd just be happy to see it on the novel's cover. ;-)
ProfMTH 2 years ago
> I'd just be happy to see it on the novel's cover
Further to the subjects of novels and loss of faith, if you know of any good novels that follow a person's loss of faith, please let me know.
I know of novels that touch upon atheism in general (Bros. Karamazov, etc.) and non-fiction books about losing faith (From Preacher to Atheist, etc. ), but I don't know of any fiction books that focus on that transition.
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
Dancing to music and life are not the same though. Even if the music ends, you can dance again some day, and still have memories of dancing. A better anology would be "Would you spend years reading the biggest and greatest book ever written from beginning to end if you knew as soon as you read the last page the book would poof out of existence and your mind erased of all you just read?" I know I wouldn't. It would be a waste of time.
Fleefles 2 years ago
"Dancing to music and life are not the same though."
They're not?! Oh my god, I'm going to have to revamp my whole theory of life.
It was merely a little analogy, Fleefles. And, as the old saying goes, all analogies limp.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
reading is passive. Life can be creative and enriching for those who follow. Your depressing analogy not withstanding.
ExtantFrodo 2 years ago
> A better anology would be "Would you spend years reading the biggest and greatest book ever written
Perhaps ... but I also don't think the phrase "the greatest book ever written" should be used when making analogies about the Bible. At the risk of sounding like a shameless self-promoter, I have a video series on that subject called "Four reasons why the Bible is not the greatest story ever told" (watch?v=mrkE_jD9Ymw).
ToddAllenGates 2 years ago
@Fleefles As long as I enjoyed the book,it would be worth reading.
madhillick 2 years ago
To atheists,skeptics,agnostics and all who accept the universe as "cold",bleak" or at best "indifferent" - and IN SPITE of these facts find the strength and courage to live a noble life and to appreciate the simple thing - the incredible chance to be alive...who try to enjoy life no matter what kind of the universe we find ourselves in...and help others to enjoy their lives...to all such people I say: I ADMIRE YOU,GUYS!I APPLAUD YOU!I AM WITH YOU!
AlexanderZlotnik 2 years ago
Well said, Alexander!
ProfMTH 2 years ago
Prof,I was impressed how by the words of the one of the RELIGIOUS scientist,J.Polkinghorne,where he debated S.Weinberg , Weinberg was asked by the audience,"what is the point of living in a universe with no ultimate purpose?".
AlexanderZlotnik 2 years ago
Weinberg replied,and Polkinghorne added: "some of us entertain that hope that the murderer will not ultimately triumph. But those that cant entertain that hope and who live a sort of, if I might say so, a life of austere nobility in the face of a hostile world, I think that is a very - I think it is mistaken but that it is an admirable position to hold, if I may say so."
I'm on the Weinberg 's side in this debate,but I like how Polkinghone concluded.
AlexanderZlotnik 2 years ago
Wow! I guess I had it easy. I don't remember a time when I believed in any kind of deity. I do remember believing Santa was real though. Strange huh? I'm not in a hurry to die by any means but I don't think death is such a bad thing. Its not any different then before you were born. Other then you'll being leaving a corpse behind which will eventually return from where it came. It makes me think of the Eagles classic "Hotel California". "You can check out but you can never leave".
melowar78 2 years ago
lol, i just made a very similar comment in one of ProfMTH's other videos.
wonslung 2 years ago
indeed i would say argumentum ad metum but i think you covered it :).
i think that the whole reason existentialism as a philosophy exists. all the people i know who agreed with it accepted that life is meaningless (objectively) and they chose what they felt was important to do with life.
superchang847 2 years ago
Good for you Prof ;)
Can't say I embraced the truth & got on w/ it at first. In 2000, I temporarily left the faith & spent 9 months in the "unyielding despair" of "Christian Nihilism" (a basic theistic worldview on morality, meaning, purpose minus belief in the theistic God.)
Came back 2 the faith & spent about 6 years "deconverting"... this time starting w/ the issues of morality & meaning etc (by accident actually) b4 facing the tough questions. Later left again w/ no despair 2 speak of ;)
myintellectualjourny 2 years ago
Thanks for the comment, MIJ. It took me a while to get to the "get on with it" part. Mine was a process as yours was, although when I left, I didn't go back.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
I'm still stuck at the gate of despair no matter how many times I think I've made it out of it. :( It was years since I rejected religion before I actually got to the "gate" but it's been about a year since I've been there and it seems like my life is a just a hazy blur.
SubtleDemise 2 years ago
The gate of despair is a tough place to be. Sometimes people need help with that stage. I know I did.
scott5878 2 years ago
It can be a very tough spot to get out of, SubtleDemise. All I can tell you is that one *can* get out of it. Scott5878 has some good counsel in his comment.
Thanks. And my best wishes to you as you go through this.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
I think I actually found some comfort in the insignificance of our existence in terms of the Universe. Probably one of the first things I did after losing religion was purchase the biggest telescope I could afford and stand in awe of the Universe as much as possible.
It makes having a bad day or period in life seem completely insignificant, if that makes any sense. It also magnifies the good things, family and friends, in the short blink of an eye life we get.
HeroesofApostasy 2 years ago
I think Neil deGrasse Tyson said it best in an episode of The Universe...........
"We are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, and to the rest of the universe atomically. Thats kinda cool! That makes me smile and I actually feel quite large at the end of that. Its not that we are better than the universe, we are part of the universe. We are in the universe and the universe is in us."
HeroesofApostasy 2 years ago
Yahweh, and the grief caused because you can't believe in him anymore ;D ;D
The ONLY god to admit to MURDERING ALL PEOPLE ON EARTH (except 8).
The ONLY god to threaten non-believers (NOT sinners, but NON-BELIEVERS) with ETERNAL torture of the most horrible sort imaginable.
Oh my my my, how depressing to think of life without him.
GetMeThere1 2 years ago
This video is funny for me. It certainly helps me understand believers better.
I've never felt any existential angst over religion. The (imagined) spectre of countless people over the ages making up different religions and acting as though they believe they're true is just too hilarious to coexist with angst of any kind.
The only way I could IMAGINE that life could ACTUALLY be seen as miserable would be if the WORST god of them all, yahweh, turned out to be really in charge!
more...
GetMeThere1 2 years ago
What a wonderful video!I'd like to share my favorate Russel's quote"The universe is what it is, not what I choose that it should be. If it is indifferent to human desires, as it seems to be; if human life is a passing episode, hardly noticeable in the vastness of cosmic processes; if there is no superhuman purpose, and no hope of ultimate salvation, it is better to know and acknowledge this truth than to endeavor, in futile self-assertion, to order the universe to be what we find comfortable
AlexanderZlotnik 2 years ago
(cont) "Towards facts, submission is the only rational attitude, but in the realm of ideals there is nothing to which to submit. Our individual life is brief, and perhaps the whole life of mankind will be brief if measured on an astronomical scale. But that is no reason for not living as seems best to us. The things that seem to us good are none the less good for not being eternal, and we should not ask of the universe an external approval of our own ethical standards."Bertrand Russell
AlexanderZlotnik 2 years ago
(cont)
The free thinker's universe may seem bleak and cold to those who have been accustomed to the comfortable indoor warmth of the Christian cosmology. But to those who have grown accustomed to it, it has its own sublimity, and confers its own joys. In learning to think freely we have learnt to thrust fear out of our thoughts, and this lesson, once learnt, brings a kind of peace which is impossible to the slave of hesitant and uncertain credulity."B.Russell "Value of Freethought"
AlexanderZlotnik 2 years ago
Thanks for that. :-)
ProfMTH 2 years ago
Wow! To my surprise this video was actually quite good. I'm impressed. Your alternative doesn't really satisfy the existential problem (in any significant sense) but you totally nailed the part on fallaciously appealing to consequences as a reason to believe in the truth of some proposition.
However, I can't help but think that your "get on with it" solution is itself a delusion based on comfort, a comfort that deceptively pretends that there is true meaning in objectively meaningless things.
Christianjr4 2 years ago
I'm not pretending about anything. I understand what "true meaning" actually is (and is not), and I'm OK with it. A delusion would be saying that meaning inheres in anything "out there."
ProfMTH 2 years ago
The things I do in this life won't matter in the least a hundred million years from now, nor on the grand scale of the universe.
But then again, I'm not the universe, and a hundred million years later don't matter much RIGHT NOW either.
SSJ3Ulcer 2 years ago
Indeed.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
I liked your last analogy about not stopping to dance just because the music will eventually stop. Makes a lot of sense and is easy to understand.
mtanti87 2 years ago
Thanks for the feedback. Glad you liked it.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
@ProfMTH
"I wouldn't refuse to dance merely because I know the music will eventually stop."
Yeah. Eloquence like that is a target for an Autotuning. Consider yourself warned.
SSJ3Ulcer 2 years ago
Another good video.
As far as I'm concerned, that kid might as well be a slave arguing that, without his slave master, his life will have no meaning (except his own meaning, of course). He doesn't want to cast off his shackles, because he won't be guaranteed food and shelter for his work. He loves making his master happy, and that is the meaning of his life.
See, you can make both sides seem depressing. Pure athiesm is tough, and it wasn't a 1 step process.
LukeShetler 2 years ago
It is tough. And you're right: it's not a one-step process. It certainly wasn't for me.
Thanks a lot, Luke.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
this video (along w/ all profMTH's output) really encouraged me to reject appeals to consequence and examine what purpose could be found. watching again clarifies how quickly and proggressively the unyielding despair has been overcome.
i hope the prof includes the help he's given to people like me in his purpose and ultimate meaning.
burnhippiesforfuel 2 years ago
Burnhippiesforfuel, I'm humbled by your remarks. Thanks.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
that was amazing
thank you for that video
ProfessorDemetri 2 years ago
You're welcome. I'm glad you found it useful.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
"Accept the Universe as it is and get on with the business of living."
While I agree that this is an important part of it, I think one also has to realize the motivational absurdity of the previous belief system. This "Ultimate Meaning" that was clung to so desperately seems, to me, kind of silly and grandiose. (I often wonder why I was so fond of it while I was trying to maintain belief.)
This also, I think, makes it easier to embrace oneself as the giver of one's own morality and purposes.
mknorman 2 years ago
For sure, but thats the hard part isnt it, finding out what the truth really is. There's very convincing arguements for both sides I think...
JaredNomac 2 years ago
Interesting video, I'm currently at the bench stage myself. Occasionally find the strength to pick myself up from it but it's growing harder each day. Watching all these different videos and reading various things is making me feel almost schizophrenic.
JaredNomac 2 years ago
It's challenging, Jared, as you well know. But take it from someone who has been there: you *will* get through it. Go where the truth leads you. Thanks.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
Excellent video. I have also been going through what you describe here so well. I am not fully there yet but am making progress. I so wanted to believe there was purpose and meaning to everything and no death ect, but then I realised I had no good reasons for believing any of the religious ideas I used to have. Now I can see things more as they really are, but am still not quite out of the despair bit due to having some quite serious life problems and regrets etc regarding situations that were..
orlando098 2 years ago
partly caused by my former lack of ability to see things clearly as they really are and make sensible choices. By the way, one interest of mine now is in emerging sciences which are trying to extend - perhaps one day greatly or even indefinitely - human life. Do you think that's just a religion substutute and I should focus on life now and try to make peace with death - or do you find it an interesting possibility too?
orlando098 2 years ago
I'm not aware of any meaningful hope that human beings are ever going to able escape death, Orlando. I can only tell you that in my own life I seek to make the most of the time I have and to make efforts to have as much time as possible.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
I think that's the most sensible approach definitely. But there are reputable scientists today who think it may become possible to stop or even reverse biological aging, and in the process stop the major diseases caused by senescence as well. It is estimated the average lifespan would then be around 1,000. Some people also envisage human/computer interface situations - e.g. mind uploading - which might allow for literal immortality. The Methuselah Foundation is one of the most interesting bodies
orlando098 2 years ago
I quite like James Watson's reply:
"'Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose,' but I'm anticipating a good lunch"
FSMUnicorn 2 years ago
It's interesting. I've been atheist my entire life but only really had this unyielding despair hit me hard about 18 months ago. Coupled with university stress and the usual teenage angst it floored me, quite literally. I'm only just regaining my feet (with the help of medication, which is not something I'm particularly proud of) but I do find it odd how it only afflicted me so much in that instance. I had fleeting moments of it during my earlier years but never to that extent. Great video.
Scotracer 2 years ago
Thanks a lot, Scotracer. And don't feel bad about your needing the assistane of some medication to get through it. No one feels bad about taking an antibiotic to combat an infection or blood pressure medication to deal with that malady. We are material beings who sometimes need to get our chemicals back in balance. :-)
ProfMTH 2 years ago
Yes I suppose. It's just really grating since it meant I would graduate from university at the relatively old age of 21 rather than 19. It really did smart at the time but now, with time off I've been able to be more open within my own intellect and as a result become intelligent as a result. Funny how that is possible.
You are probably the best bible refuter on Youtube and I link your videos to many people - please, keep them up. BTW, what do you profess?
Scotracer 2 years ago
I teach constitutional and criminal law and argumentation.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
fck dude, this is your best ever. very, very substantiated. furthermore, when You ask theis to to give you their view of this purpose, man, it is like a hand granade that explodes in their hand. this purpose is even a worst fate than having none at all.
jrev37 2 years ago
excellent video past through it all too, but then without religion i did find a purpose for my life, and started to value alot more my and the life of others
rinaa09 2 years ago
Thanks. So did I.
ProfMTH 2 years ago
i love that my grandmother can watch profmth's w/ me when i try to explain why i won't take my kids to sunday school. you sound like 'such a nice young man'.
great channel.
burnhippiesforfuel 2 years ago
Great video. Thanks for the link to A Free Man's Worship.
What I find absolutely frustrating is that the journey that you took of going beyond the gate of despair is something that vast majority of the people are neither interested nor intellectually capable of doing.
Good job.
rotate85 3 years ago
Thanks very much, Rotate85.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
As a counsellor I see much despair as the result of all this
childhood-up teaching of an omnipotent, omniscient being
who has been shown repeatedly to have no compunction
in wreaking the most heinous acts on huge populations
and who boasts of having built a horrible eternal torture chamber
and who has made the way very narrow indeed
and who has now taken a personal interest in YOU.
It's simply irresponsible to broadcast that poisonous idea.
Imaginefree69 3 years ago
The last 8 seconds of this video, in my opinion, sums it all up. Good job!
I find that the idea of an afterlife completely devalues our current lives. THAT is the flaw in religion! To absolutely value life, at its highest form, we should assume an afterlife does not exist.
UmakeMeCutMythroat 3 years ago
Thanks for sharing that. I ditched religion a year ago or so, and I'm having a hard time transitioning from the belief that the universe was made for us and we have ultimate meaning to being an acknowledged member of the thin film of life that coats some parts of this tiny planet for the moment. Its good to have an idea of the way forward.
cdnrktsci 3 years ago
You're welcome. I'm glad you're finding it helpful. The transition can be quite difficult.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
The link to "A Free Man's Worship" doesn't work. Do you have another link or can I pick it up at a bookstore?
VirtuesPenumbra 3 years ago
You can just Google it. I put a new link to it. Try that one.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
"I wouldn't refuse to dance just because I know the music will eventually stop." That might come in handy some day. Thanks as always, PM.
cosmicjackpot 3 years ago
You're welcome. :-)
ProfMTH 3 years ago
I gather that you agree with the dispair part, but you contend that it can yield. You are a little vague on the joy on the other side of the gate.
vidgazer7 3 years ago
I can speak only from my experience, which, during my transition away from religious belief, involved a deep sense of despair at times. And, yes, it yielded. Some people tell me they never experienced despair; others say it came and went quickly; yet others say it seem never to go away -- one is reminded of Mother Teresa's own struggle with despair (and, of course, she was a believer). As for joy, one can only cover so much in a 10-minute video. Try making one some time; you'll see. ;-)
ProfMTH 3 years ago
I actually never had anything that could be termed "despair", only a certain amount of anxiety over the conception of an afterlife.
Once I got over it (ie, once I came to the firm conclusion that there is no god, no soul, no afterlife), I gained a tremendous amount of peace. I find I'm living my life much more joyfully and "in the moment" than I did when I was either nominally a believer (I had doubts at age 8) or as a deep skeptic without my current level of certainty.
middlekk 3 years ago
"I wouldn't refuse to dance merely because I know the music will eventually stop."
Great analogy, great video.
CameronFordham 3 years ago
Thanks.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Just to clarify, I was christian once too, I didn't become agnostic or atheist all at once, there wasn't any cataclysmic event, death or bombshell that caused me to "change". It was just a process of thinking about everything in general.
To me the idea of no meaning in life is ultimately meaningless. Wether there is or isn't an afterlife won't change the fact that I'm living in the world and have alot of things I can do. Like you said, just because the music will stop, why shouldn't you dance?
Grysham 3 years ago
Hey love the video, you have a strangely hypnotic narative that I can't help but listen right the way through to the end.
Question though, for you or anyone else that reads this. I would say I'm agnostic atheist I guess, in that I believe a creator or higher being or something we don't KNOW COULD possibly exist. It just doesn't seem very PROBABLE.
But why is the idea of no purpose, no meaning, no goal in life so horrible? What EXACTLY is bad about that?
Grysham 3 years ago
The concept of "ultimate meaning" or "purpose" is theist code for 'afterlife".
They can't make it through their shitty shitty day without the promise of a post-life cookie.
And it's a peculiarly Christian POV. Hindi think the best post-life state is "nirvana", which is also known as "blessed nothingness".
Not everyone wants to sit on a cloud worshiping god for all eternity. But Xtians think that without this "reward", everyone would be baby-rapists.
Sad and silly.
middlekk 3 years ago
Middlekk: So its purely an appeal to consequences thing? Its not that the thought of no purpose is frightening as much as the consequences of there not being one? Which, of course, MUST be terrible.
Personally, I always thought the idea of no purpose to be a wonderfully liberating one. Life doesn't NEED to mean anything, it just exists and we can enjoy every aspect of it, because its huge. That sounds pretty good to me.
Grysham 3 years ago
"That sounds pretty good to me".
It IS liberating to not be constantly looking over one's shoulder worrying about what invisible magic creatures might think not only of your behavior but your very thoughts.
Theists smile less, laugh less, enjoy life WAY less than atheists, because they're constantly worried about the post-life "consequences". Horribly stultifying way to live.
That doesn't, however, mean we're not responsible for our actions. We are; but only in the here and now.
middlekk 3 years ago
"Hey love the video, you have a strangely hypnotic narative that I can't help but listen right the way through to the end."
Thanks about the video. As for my "strangely hypnotic narrative," I've never gotten that description before. I kinda like it though. lol
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Excellent video!
While never a strong theist myself, I have followed the same progression Russell laid out, as well. Eventually I came to this conclusion:
I am here and this is now - LIVE. It's the only life I have and after this I'm gone for good... I'm going to enjoy every moment I can.
Just my experiences; thought I'd share. Cheers!
OuroborosChoked 3 years ago
Thanks very much, OuroborosChoked.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Very thought provoking video, Prof....
chuckfaststrat 3 years ago
Thanks a lot.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
I guess being atheist pretty much all my life (my parents weren't religious), i don't even understand the concept of BEING in despair over realizing there's most likely no god or order to the universe. It just sounds crazy to me - but maybe i'm not looking at it from the proper perspective - which would be that everything and anything i've been taught to believe was most likely a lie - then i guess i'd have to be a little glum for a while, figuring things out, but yah. Good last line!
limegreensquid 3 years ago
Thanks.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
Unfortunately I am pretty much stuck at #2 I occasionally seem to be able to remain in the realm of #3 multiple weeks (especially when I travel) but when "everyday life" kicks back number #2 seems to pull me back again. I loved your very last sentence though
tomsan84 3 years ago
Thanks, Tomsan. Working through this stuff can be quite challenging and it often doesn't happen all at once or even quickly.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
This is one of those occasions when I wish I didn't give out so many 5 stars... or that there was a special 6th star. I have to join the others in giving you praise. Superb response! Keep it up.
Aaron31909 3 years ago
Thank you *very* much, Aaron. I appreciate the nice words and feedback.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
I definitely chose 3 myself. I love my meaningless life.
darkmojojojo 3 years ago
I wanted to comment more last night but it was late...
I really do wish I had Russell to read when I was working out all this stuff on my own years ago. I can remember going through each and every stage noted. However, my unyeilding despair passed rather quickly and uneventfully. This, I believe was because I was never heavily indoctrinated with theism to begin with. I can only imagine what it must be like for those that were heavily indoctrinated...
twothlesswonder 3 years ago
Great video! Very well animated as well. 5/5 and a sub!
I look forward to future productions!
twothlesswonder 3 years ago
Thanks a lot. And welcome.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
HAHAHAHAHAHA lovely stick images!
sthebg20 3 years ago
;-)
ProfMTH 3 years ago
ProfMTH - I love the video. Five stars.
I was raised Baptist. When I was about 11 years old, I told my mom I wasn't going to church anymore, much to her continuing dismay. Even at that early age (I am now 44 years old) I just knew that something was very wrong about the concept of religion. I wasn't buying it. The God of the old testament is by far and away the opposite of a moral and just being. God is vindictive, spiteful, jealous - more like a bad human than supreme being.
brentj30 3 years ago
ProfMTH - coontinued....
I am generally a pragmatic person so, my journey through the despair phase was intermittent as I studied more and more about the universe as a student right on through college. At 44, I now have a profound sense of how precious life is in the "here and now" and live my life to wonder and learn all that I can about all things knowable and to help my family, friends and community thrive. This sense is what drives me to be honest and moral so as not to deprive others.
brentj30 3 years ago
Thanks for your nice words about the video, Brent, and for taking time to share your experience.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
For me, I revel in what I suppose you could call a love of non consequences. I live my life doing for others, myself, my family, my friends.. not for some dopey reward in a silly afterlife, but because if I don;t do it *here* and *now*, then when I die, who will ? The "Believers"? They'll pray mightily (and often). Some will do a bit here or there. But, many will want those I leave behind to "convert" before they do *anything*. "If God won't do it, then I damn well better do it myself!"
RyuDarragh 3 years ago
Great video! I'm also one for Nietzsche's "amor fati": the love of fate.
When I was a Christian I felt that this life had no meaning, and could not have any meaning, b/c in the end either we'd be burning in hell for all eternity, or in heaven knowing that many of the people we cared for and befriended were screaming in the agony of unending hellfire. FUCK THAT!!!!
Antichrist4Life 3 years ago
While the comment is already old, the concept of no coffee sent a chill down my spine. They'll take my coffee from my cold dead cup!
( :) )
Cafeeine 3 years ago
"They'll take my coffee from my cold dead cup!"
You're the Charlton Heston of java. ;-)
ProfMTH 3 years ago
I, myself, have not had the same experiences you have had; I grew up in a very secular household (i.e. we didn't practice anything). I never went to church and I never studied any form of religion (when I was younger; I have a pretty firm understanding now). I realized I was an atheist a few years back and that's just how it was. However, I do love this video and I think it's important for theists to see. Thank you for sharing your opinions; they are very well thought out.
Live4Science 3 years ago
You're welcome. Thank you for taking the time to share your experience.
ProfMTH 3 years ago
I have to say, my emotional state of mind was one more of relief than of despair when I finally admitted to myself that I no longer believed. I always get the sense that I've stepped into Bizarro World when I see apologists telling me how they think I ought to have felt about it. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
LaughingManRa 3 years ago
LMR: I had the exact same experience. Relief.
My life is much more joyful now than it was when I was worried about my post-corporeal fate.
Exactly the opposite of despair, in fact.
middlekk 3 years ago
Prof....I love this video. Five stars. Bravo young man. It seems like, if you will forgive the poetic use of the word, a spiritual relative of Sagan's famous "pale blue dot" passage from the book of the same title.
I suppose it might be because I have not been a theist for a very long time, but I simply do no understand why theists insist the universe MUST have, to use Vertias' phrase, a "meta narrative" - and one that turns upon the fate of the human race alone.
CapeandCowl 3 years ago
Thanks a million, CapeandCowl.
My own sense is that often the insistence on universal meaning comes from an unwillingness to acknowledge, confront, and embrace the universe as it is. There are other factors, but I think that's often at the bottom of it all.
ProfMTH 3 years ago