2. Better Never To Have Been - David Benatar

[HybridD91]

People can experience joy without pain. That caller apparently isn't aware of people who can not feel pain at all yet still feel joy. He's speaking mystical, mumbo jumbo bull crap.

[faunos51]

All those wankers saying bullshit about how good is life and that we owe our existence to god.

GG retards, GG.

[panthera50]

He is right, and if you have the urge to "take care" of a child: adopt, there are enough to go round. :-)

[wkboonec]

When I die, if I were to meet a god-like authority who would offer me the opportunity to live a second time around, as whatever character I chose --as if in a casting for a theater play-- I would perhaps be tempted to try to satisfy my curiosity by choosing to live at some future date, but after careful pondering I believe that my answer would be: "Thanks, but no thanks". All things considered --pleasures and pains-- it is better not to be born at all.

[PeterRoeder31]

What a brilliant guy. I have never heard such compassion before. He is excellent.

[im10pplok]

has der ever been a country or vast society that collectively embraced AN and outed themselves out of this life?

[jakegamesnake]

I want to ask this man a question... What's the purpose of antinatalism? Is it to cease suffering? What about all the other animals on this planet? They'll suffer too? What suffering have we ceased when animals are just going take over our environment and breed?

[ShockOfLemonade]

@jakegamesnake If we got to the point where we agreed about antinatalism on a large scale, then we would start taking measures to prevent the future reproduction of other sentient species as well.

[eschatonicus]

The irony is this man who feels he is not qualified to be a father, by virtue of the fact that he possesses the self-consciousness to realize that he is not qualified to be a good father, would probably make a much better father than the men who, without examination, think they do. Or don't think at all.

[glorp896]

@eschatonicus there is MUCH to be said of humility, its correlated to IQ, crime rates and a humble nature is a constant guilt pang of need to improve life for yourself and others - i can get very racial in outlining this kind of study of man, but suffice it to say in the environmental regard it has its own loop of reason: go to VOLUNTARY HUMAN EXTINCTION MOVEMENT online: second section: BIOLOGY AND BREEDING and click on the third question - its hilarious by so true!, and really quite stark!

[Esgaravatador]

@eschatonicus There is a book in my native language (Portuguese) about antinatalism entitled "Because I love you, you will NOT be born!"

[DerivedEnergy]

@functionalist972 Oh, I also have a degree in psychology as well which helps A LOT!

[DerivedEnergy]

@functionalist972 I'm a big fan! I can't find much to fault in what he says AT ALL. He has been an influence and an inspiration to me I'm happy to admit. My views on antinatalism, however, were pretty much solidified after I read David Benatar's book a few years ago. I've also read Schopenhauer and Emile Cioran; participated in long debates on philosophy forums and read up on philosophy, cosmology, evolution, the singularity, quantum physics and many other relevant subjects.

[glorp896]

@DerivedEnergy and what about the most obvious one, the ecology? got any good fear mongering literature on overpopulation? NEGATIVE POPULATION GROWTH has been one of my favorites...

[DerivedEnergy]

Let me ask a couple of questions:

a) Two potential parents decide not to have a child but If they had have had that child the child would have had the greatest possible life imaginable. Now...do you consider that the child's interests were thwarted in any way? b) Two potential parents decide not to have a child but if they had have had a child that child would have had the worst possible life you can imagine, Has a catastrophe been averted by the parents deciding NOT to have had that child?

[filrabat]

@DerivedEnergy

a) "Greatest" (in the emotional sense) is a sentient concept. The nonexistent aren't sentient, and so don't have any interests to thwart (like the child you didn't have at age 15, for example).

b)Yes it has been averted. That child WOULD have been sentient, and so had had interests to thwart. Complete thwartation would have been catastrophic. Because the child didn't exist, the "child" "has" no interests to thwart.

[DerivedEnergy]

@filrabat I agree with you, my friend. I'm a fellow antinatalist myself! I've seen some of your views on antinatalism somewhere and you express yourself well. I have respect for you. (High five)