Juan Cole vs. Vijay Prashad: A Debate on U.S. Military Intervention in Libya. Part 1 of 2

[dmolmalowski]

Cole position seems more principled

[nourights]

I'm with Veejay. It's disgusting how so-called or self-described Progressives line up to drop bombs just because a Democrat is dropping them. It's a double standard and I thank Amy Goodman for the debate.

[AndrewMann552]

Juan Cole needs to read some Orwell, he's still stuck in Brave New World.

[dmolmalowski]

@AndrewMann552

He is simply siding with the wishes of the majority of the libyan people who dont want to continue living under a dictatorship.

[AndrewMann552]

@dmolmalowski Except that with US interventionism they will most likely trade over one dictatorship for another.

[dmolmalowski]

@AndrewMann552

Unlikely, this does seem to be a genuine mass movement which is opposing gadaffi, its also a UN intervention, finally whether right or wrong recent US interventions have led to societies becoming freer than they were before.

[AndrewMann552]

@dmolmalowski Really? Is that why the Western half of the country is still largely pro-Gaddafi? And which societies are now more free because of US interventionism? Iraq? Where the Maliki regime has gunned down protesters, shut down newspapers, disappeared opponents and has basically annexed the country to Iran? Latin America? They've been kicking out US bases because they already know the sad history of US "interventions."

[dmolmalowski]

@AndrewMann552

"Really? Is that why the Western half of the country is still largely pro-Gaddafi?"

Its under his control due to his armed forces and his secret police, theres also western areas under rebel control such as misrata.

[dmolmalowski]

"And which societies are now more free because of US interventionism?"

My statement is correct,right or wrong recent US interventions have led to societies becoming freer than they were before. This includes iraq and afghanistan.

[dmolmalowski]

they already know the sad history of US "interventions."

The history is mixed, they have overall been just interventions like afghanistan and korea and unjust ones like iraq and vietnam.

[AndrewMann552]

@dmolmalowski Let's see: The US intervened in Korea and propped up a dictatorship that lasted for decades, in Afghanistan we propped up warlords who are just as bad as the Taliban...I don't see the silver lining here.

[dmolmalowski]

@AndrewMann552

In order to judge whether or not an intervention is right one must see if the alternative is worse or better, one does not judge an intervention by comparing it to a perfect scenario, this is childish.

The current afghan government is not as bad as the taliban, poll after poll shows that most afghans prefer their lives now than they did under the taliban, korea likewise is much better by not falling under the control of the extremist communists in the north.

[AndrewMann552]

@dmolmalowski Please cite your polling sources. Afghanistan's top feminist activist Malalai Joya for example, has been very vocal on how the current Afghan government is no different than the Taliban when it comes to women's rights since it's composed of warlords who are just as brutal. People living inside the affluent areas of Kabul or US military zones are certainly comfortable, but that's the extent of Karzai's control. It's like judging Iraq by living standards in the Green Zone.

[dmolmalowski]

@AndrewMann552

I have great respect for Ms joya and i think that it is a shame what she has gone through however her views are in the minority.

The polls that i am on about have come from an org called d3 systems, other polls have come from world public opinion and the asia foundation. Oxfam have also found that afghans consider post taliban rule to be less violent than the period of taliban rule

[dmolmalowski]

Again the fact still holds that those two nations were better off with a US intervention than they would have been if there was none whereas iraq and vietnam would have been better off if they US didnt get militarily involved.

[00Juwan00]

@AndrewMann552 No thats you people, like the idiot who proudly says he identified Gaddafi as a 'reactionary' from the 80s (when he parted ways with you guys ideologically). He was the handsome revolutionary hero who funded your pet causes when he was hanging of 'reactionary' students on live TV from 1977, usually on April 7 'day of students' to commemorate 1976 crushing student uprising after his 'revolutioanry committes' overode student union vote. No wonder you share a vocabulary.

[00Juwan00]

@AndrewMann552 his 'particular understanding of Libyan history' ignores fact rebel capital of Benghazi has population two 3rds originally form West (last few deacdes). Highest profile leader Mahmoud Jibril from a 'western tribe' as are most I see on Arabic TV. My dad's side from West, I lived there except 2 years in East, country naturally united against 42 year dictator who squandered wealth+allowed no opposition (every family has ppl who were in prison/executed, even G's cousin).

[00Juwan00]

@AndrewMann552 'particular understanding of Libyan history' also ignores fact population only 6 million vast majority on coastline=when meet any Libyan abroad quickly find we are related. Borders esp East West vs desert South meant nothing in ottoman times. Libya was 3 federal states when man from Algeria was embraced by Libyans as leader. Modern Libya with communications + moving for uni and work=more intermariage+nation state ID.

[00Juwan00]

@AndrewMann552 East never had a monopoly on hating tyrnat 1st student hangings in 70s was in Tripoli's Fateh university then Benghazi's Garyonis. 1969 coup promised end to monarchy, but abolished constitution, parliament, political parties to build a 'revolutionary society' and in 70s some even 80s ideologues abroad cheered as Libyans struggled against cult of brutes. No intervention=revenge sprees (now in Zawya and Zwara) on larger scale. Again for most of Left ideology trumps Libyan lives.

[mmantech]

@AndrewMann552 it is sickening to behold such an intellectually bankrupt so called "left wing" here in america. i think alot of the so called "left" are secret agents of american imperialism trying to cause confusion on the genuine left.