When i was a child, my brother squirted orange juice in my eye. Knowing he needed to clean it up, and knowing that our mother cleaned up messes with Ajax, he came to the conclusion that spraying ajax in my face would clean me up. I may not know a lot about this Bulger case, but its certainly not outside the realms of possibility that these boys, while knowing that killing was wrong, they may not have been able to see how their actions could lead to the death of another
@inkymoon You’re comparing adult culpability with that of a 10-year-old. In most respects, the law doesn’t do this; driving, drinking, having sex, etc. That’s central to the distinction society makes between ‘adult’ and ‘minor’. Negation of responsibility for children works both ways. As 10-year-olds, their “bad start in life” was still ongoing. When an adult commits murder, the responsibility is entirely theirs. When a 10-year-old commits murder, society has failed to raise that child properly.
@neonatalpenguin I like Will Self and agree with most of his well thought out opinions. The trouble with this particular comment is that it begins to negate the idea of personal responsibility. Lots of people have a bad start in life, they do not all go out and kill. If you take away the idea of responsibility then you could justify revenge attacks on the killers and that would be equally wrong.
@inkymoon How can a 10 year old have personal responsibility ? What normal 10 year old would go to school or eat his greens or brush his teeth if some RESPONSIBLE adult hadn't instilled it in him to do so ?
@inkymoon You don't yet seem mature enough yet to understand what Will Self is saying, or what neonatalpenguin has already said to you so little point in me discussing with you any furthur.
If you believe 10 year olds can commit crimes in the way that adults can then by your own logic you believe they deserve the punishments that adults recieve. In America, this would almost certainly have meant death. Imagine killing two children for the sake of one. And what would the executioner become? A child murderer. He would have to be killed also.
This kind of ridiculous conjecture about 'the way we should punish' is what's holding us back from making everyone happy and equal.
I have read "The Butt" by Will Self, I could not put it down, however it presents a picture of the world run by dreadful people. It has disturbed me. I am still interested in what he has to say, he's interesting and has a view on the world that is valid.....but it may shock you!
@snoopyprobing Will Self is a free thinker. I don't think he deserves the title 'genius'. It annoys me when I encounter people downgrading words like those. It's rather indicative the plummeting standards of modern people when anyone exercising logical or creative (or even both!) thought are dubbed a genius.
Unless of course you have more compelling grounds for using the term? I may be wrong and i'm willing to admit it, i'm an open-minded genius you see ;) (i'm only messing about).
I suppose it's a bit much to expect rationality, fairness or indeed sanity to flow forth from the keyboards of Youtube users but seriously - the comments section on this video has reminded me that painfully reactionary, exceptionally cuntish people without a clue still exist in droves in England. Will Self had BALLS to air that (rational, reasoned) opinion in front of an audience as typically ill-informed and stupid as the ones usually witnessing Question Time, and got applause for it.
@Tomthenigma Nah, I won a local writing competition a couple of years ago, as part of a literature festival at which he did a reading, and at some point he read my entry. Then, a few months later, he sent me a letter of encouragement and a copy of 'We' by Yevgeny Zamyatin. I was buzzing for a whole week, haha. Great book too, if you get a chance.
@rottweilerfromhell@rottweilerfromhell just the kind of uninteligable retarded spewings id expect from some one who tries to argue who has the tougher army hahah and your 33 pathetic you act like a 2 year old
@rottweilerfromhell@rottweilerfromhell just the kind of uninteligable retarded spewings id expect from some one who tries to argue who has the tougher army hahah and your 33 pathetic you act like a 2 year old
@rottweilerfromhell as usual the voice of the moron rears its head i didnt say there was anything wrong with the working class you retard what i said is you are MISREPRESENTING the working class hence i used the phrase "so called voice of" next time read and re read make sure you understand it all retard
Other than daft shite about my risk to small children, what's your point here? That because they had an education, good food and the odd day out they were gone soft on? These things are not really luxury items are they? You either believe in diminished responsibility for kids or you don't. If you do, and you aim to rehabilitate, then unpalettable as it might seem, you have to try to treat these kids reasonably well as that's the best way to end up with reasonably well behaved adults.
From the reports of the court case which documented the reactions of the kids themselves. If the reports are wrong then take it up with those that wrote them. Also, dont accuse me of being a liar or calling the Bulgers liars, when i did no such thing.
My original point was that PEOPLE (ie,not the Bulgers, just everday dickheads including the media) make up ridiculous bullshit about what actually happened. Sure, those kids were sick fucks but so was any adult in 93 who wanted to kill them
Cont... how does two wrongs make a right? Sure, If the Bulgers or those who actually knew James wanted revenge then thats understandable - like I said in my original post. But people who arent directly involved need to mind their own business and shut the fuck up to be honest.
@sonicandroid909 well..i dont like it either..id like to leave..but i have all my family and friends here..so its hard for anyone to just leave..even though britain is a shithole and favours the criminals over the decent folk..its still home to most of us..apologies sonic..no offence meant..
@sonicandroid909 maybe because he/she doesnt wanna go live somwere else..who the feck are you to be telling people to move from this country because they have voiced there opinion which you dont agree with..?
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All you peple who believe these two lads didnt know what they where doing just because they where 10, get into the real world!! when i was 10, i would know not to go and torture someone throw bricks at a little 4 year old boy and then tie him to a bloody train track! listen to yourselves you idiots!! course they knew what they were doing! they are evil,and always will be!And what does our country do for them when they come out of prison protect them with a new identity, what a joke of a country!
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fuckin cunt of a m,an to say its not there fault "cause they were only 10" get a grip u fuckin ballsack,,its in the publics interest to know if he has done bad things again,,what a fuckin muppet.
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@dibbleman too right matey,comments like that saying that those too evil little cunts should get respect is just retarded!!!!!!!!! what a total prick of a man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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A 10 year old is old enough to know better, when I was that age I did. As for Will Self (who looks like a strange morph between Daniel Craig and Pete Townsend, and has talentless as both) well I wonder what he would think if it happened to someone close to him.
The law justifiably, in my view- doesnt allow children to drive, smoke, drink, gamble, have sex, etc until adolescence, because children arent deemed culpable enough to take responsibility in these situations. For the same reason, the law states that a child cannot be punished with the same level of severity as an adult. I dont see a problem with that.
@neonatalpenguin how can you equate driving, smoking, sex and gambling to the act of killing? Taking a life is on another level completely and to say that a ten year old doesn't understand that is insulting the intelligence of ten year olds the world over. Do people suddenly magically understand responsibility when they turn 18? Of course they don't, it is instilled from an early age.
@inkymoon Whether or not the Bulger killers knew the difference between right and wrong is almost irrelevant. They were 10 years old, and therefore not legally culpable. During adolescence, we gradually cease to be extensions of our family’s will (or lack of it), and become free and culpable adults. In all likelihood, you and I were both raised with great moral care and attention. Lucky us. The desire to punish a 10-year-old as an adult doesn’t make you the good guy here.
What a poisonous, reactionary cunt you are. Britain is one of the only countries in THE WORLD where children aged 10 can be put on trial and culpability and awareness on the part of the child is automatically accepted if those children commit crimes. What they did was absolutely heinous - but they had NO IDEA of the severity or ramifications of what they were doing. Children that young can be rehabilitated and taught to be normal members of society.
@ChrisGS1982 You just keep your silly cosmetic opinions to yourself dear, you're way out of your depth. Stick to the bleepy games and leave the thinking to adults.
@ChrisGS1982 Ever read any Will Self? Talentless he is not. You may not like his stuff, but to completely disregard it demonstrates either immense ignorance or immense philistinism. He's not excusing what they did, he's being logical as only an outsider can be about something so sensitive. We shouldn't make all our decisions based on 'what sort of vengeance would we want if we were victims' unless we want to live in a brutal, primitive society. As for his appearance look up the genetic fallacy.
I can't tell you how relieved it makes me to hear the rational responses on here (and on a few other places). I think the tabloid coverage of this case is beyond shameful and I really don't believe they speak for 'the british public' (as if there were such an entity) as they so frequently claim. Those of us who disagree with the media's demands for 'justice' (aka vengeance) need to make ourselves heard, because the way that politicians respond to, and so empower, the tabloids is very worrying.
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"Will Shelf kicks ass". Licks it more like. His own bas**rd if he could reach. Bending backward!. Looking down his beaky nose at everyone the lefty t**t. I only watched Question time to see Vorderman. Will Shelf with his Monotonous Vacuous Drone of Nothingness. I couldn't stand it for long. THANK YOU TV manufacturers for the mute function on the Remote Control. Prince Charles, Cliff Richard and Will Shelf are the biggest Pontificating Ponce's in Britain. I pity anyone who likes him.
What an idiot Will Self is. How dare he approach this subject with rationality and forethought? Has he not seen the blanket reactionary ignorance that is appropriate for such situations.
Oh, and by the way, my sympathies are absolutely with the Bulger parents. Of course they are.
But what if these boys, being ten, had no FULL knowledge of their actions; had no FULL concept of life and death. How frightening is that they may not be evil, but a product of their society? You can understand why the evil tag is bandied around, if this is the alternative.
@TSEPHTON9 your sympathy is placed in the right place as Im sure everyones is with the family of Jamie Bulger but the events that took place that day were a horrific tragedy and branding 10 year olds evil is just a very linear way of approaching a very sad and terrifying crime and it is for a civilized society to address these subjects with "rationality and forethought" other wise the criminal justice system would lead us to very dark place of medieval barbarity
@88hurts I absolutely agree. That is the point I was making. I think that people who use the word evil are doing so to avoid closer analysis of the situation. After all, if they look too closely, they may see a reflection that is a tad bit too frightening for them.
@88hurts lol..you toffs talk shit..and penguin wrote ''will self kicks ass'' cos he was agreeing that venables and thompson should be wrapped up in cotton wool and protected for butchering a 3 year old baby..they were never punished for what they did..you people make me sick..i dare anyone of yous brave chaps to come meet me in liverpool city centre and speak out like your doing now..will self is a scumbag.he will get his come uppence one day..rest assured..
He's not scum, he's approached a subject thoughtfully, he is simply using his brain he has not carried out any violence yet you want to fight people and hope that Will Self gets his comeuppence, what, you hope he gets his head kicked in because he was asked for his opinion and gave it? I know being part of the moral majority makes you think you have a license to beat up people, but in my mind you've just exhibited the hate that runs through you, the hate that ran through two ten year olds once
@PomBare i havent mentioned i want to fight anyone..? i said id like to hear some of the do gooders speak out in liverpool town centre and see the reaction it would cause..a riot id say..as for will self..karma will deal with him..scumbag shite like him always get there come uppence in one way or another..and you aint part of any moral majority..just part of a small liberal do gooder minority..most likely middle class lazy student studying economics at uni..?
when has the majority ever been right? I don't attach myself to categories like 'liberal do gooder' it simply doesn't cover the spectrum of my world views. And you've attempted the same jab twice by predicting my current status, which you were wrong about. You should be a marketer with those demographic aspirations.
@PomBare when we have people like you and will self showing sympathy towards two murderers of one of the most horrific crimes in british history..it just shows how much our society has fucked up in the last 20 years..you middle class toffs have been protected by your parents money since birth and have been given the best.you dont know what realy goes on in the real world because your in your own little bubble..you and will self are shite of the earth and care nothing for little jamie..
@dibbleman alls you know about the real world is what you read in the daily telegraph..etc you know nothing what goes on at street level..were the real salt of the earth lies..you should be ashamed of yourself..what about the pain and suffering of the bulger family..? ralph bulger is a friend of mine and is in a living hell..people like you and will self should keep your fecking mouths shut and your opinions to your public schoolboy private clubs..you make me sick..
How dare you, that is an awful presumption to make. This video talks of society's response to the case, that is what we are debating here. How do you know I don't care for Jamie? I've put thousands of hours voluntary work in my community helping the needy and underpriviledged. Ive given so much support to the homeless people in my town, and I talk to them at a street level believe me. I've been an ardent denouncer of the middle class in this country, I am a true socialist, Ive been whole...
heartedly behind every facet of the justice for hilsbrough campaign. It is an astonishing personal attack on me, you have described everything I am not with the exception that I may fall in the lower middle class band, but I have attacked those very foundations time and again, but you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder, nothing you have said relates to me. Also You declare Will Self cares not for Jamie, how do you know? This is a particular issue about the public's reaction
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@PomBare why are you defending will self..? he said there was no malice of forethought to the murder..they try to murder a little girl a few hours before they got jamie..they knew what they were doing..they were not 2 little confused kids whos game went a bit too far..but evil cold blooded killers..simple as that..so if you care about the lower classes..stop taking sides with this middle class idiot will self..im sick and angry with the care and protection the murderers have been afforded..
@dibbleman will self knows fuck all about what went on that day on the railway track..me and 1000s of other liverpool people do..and it aint nothing like you heard in the papers i can assure you..the truth has been well covered up..thompson and venables should of NEVER been let out..i apologise to you because i got you wrong..but will self is a piece of dirt who should keep his mouth shut..and let the bulger family see justice done for there little boy..
@dibbleman Firstly dibble man I am from Bow East London hardly a posh region so before you make a stupid point about someone being rational about this case for being as you so eloquently put it a "toff" think about leaving you prejudice behind. I understand that this is an emotional subject for people and I completely understand why some people have views like your own but you must understand how I have come to my own.
Well I do live comfortably still in Tower Hamlets I might add but even so you would begrudge me an opinion based on wealth? But it seems to me that your just looking for a reason to whine and a verbal confrontation which would be pointless and achieve nothing for me. I have expressed my opinion and you said mine was wrong failing to state why it was wrong but instead painting pictures of a "liberal" upper class society set against the popular opinion which is laughable to intelligent people
@88hurts anyone defending the murderers of a child is wrong..and most working class people will agree with me..go into the blind beggar or the ten bells in london and ask the drinkers there who is right..you or me..or be even braver..come up north to liverpool..lol..that would be funny to see..you wouldnt be so smug then my friend..not many will agree with you here..lol
I highley doubt that most people would agree with you on anything but listen I am not defending what they did as a crime it is one of the few crimes that sends chills down my spine when I hear about it I am simply stating that the chance for redemption must be applied in all murder cases as must a defense for all it is a core human right. "even braver come up to liverpool" you really are scary you must believe it is genetic trait of bnp scum to be better fighters then everyone else you fool
@88hurts i aint bnp..i agree that they are scum..but so are you..you fecking moron..how is redemption a core human right after such a short time locked away..they were put in a holiday camp you fool and given a good education and more care than most kids from working class backgrounds are ever given..now they are being mothercoddled and wrapped up in cotton wool again..even one of them might have commited another serious offence..you stupid coont..idiots like you have fecked the uk up.nobwank
Shit you are confused your own comment one day ago "bnp(which i am)" now there scum?. . so you agree now. Dude seriously I made a point agree disagree its up to you, debate is how society grows but you don't seem to do that your priorities are insulting someone I have nothing more to say to you on this matter I understand this is an emotional subject for you and understand the anger but for the benefits of the whole society you cannot give into brutality. I wish you the best in life
@88hurts no no no squire..if you read my post proper..i said most of the country are against the bnp(which i am)..meaning i am against them also..always have been..and if you lived here in liverpool when the murders happend all them years ago..you would understand why most of us are still angry at venables and thompson..especialy when they were laughing in court..and smirking at denise and ralph bulger..10 years old or not,,both were very wicked..and none have shown any real remorse since..
@dibbleman i came across this will self video by chance..there is dozens of other videos for jamie bulger..and most of the posters are against venables and thompson..and are all for jamie same as me..but cos will self is a fecking liberal do gooder..most of yous that are supporting him are liberal do gooders yourselfs..birds of a feather type of things..but yous are a real small minority..check out the other jamie bulger vids and see for yourselfs,,and you will see how many are same as me...
Oh, the "do-gooder" label again, been seeing that a lot recently. How does NOT wanting to kill two 10yr old kids make one a do-gooder exactly. Sure they are 27 now but plenty of people here in Liverpool wanted to kill them at the time, I remember it well. Surely though, isn't it the right of James's family to get revenge if they want it? How would Ralph Bulger feel if some random idiot "do-gooder" kills them two and takes that right away from him?People who aren't directly involved need to stfu.
Comment removed ok my mistake I have said on several occasions I understand your point of view I don't blame you for it or think that you are bad person for your view in fact it shows that you have very strong emotions for justice. But some times when we are at the most emotional we loose sense of reason and wrath simply dictates which is dangerous on numerous levels
@88hurts well thanks for the understanding..no hard feeling..iv had my say..everyone has there own different view on things and now im going to leave this debate and let you good gentlemen get on with it alone..cheers..
Yeah mate, Im from Liverpool myself and actually those two boys were not smirking at the bulgers at all nor were they laughing. This is a typical example of how people make up lies and false stories to justify their hate. Its the easiest thing in the world to simply dismiss them as evil rather than make an actual effort to understand the reasons behind the crime and what turned those boys into killers. I would rather blame society and the parents before blaming two 10yr old children.
Where does everyone get the idea that young people's institutions are like holiday camps? I don't know what sort of holidays you go on, but I doubt if living for 10 years with a load of highly disturbed teenagers is your idea of a good time.
It's not as simple as that and its not about taking sides or being in one camp or the other. The pain Ralph Bulger must have felt since that day is unimaginable, if I knew somebody in that position I would care deeply for their loss and convey my deepest sincerity. I just have my own reservations about the psychology of society and I/Will Self/or whoever has the right to state them.
@dibbleman RE the comment a couple below, You completely irrational and idiotic person. Join the sun brigade and kindly disappear as your lynch mobs and tabloid agenda arent welcome. Will is making a completely rational point as per usual and isnt taking anybodys side, listen to what he says- it makes complete sense. Nice to hear him on national tv arguing against the annoying and disturbing mob culture in the uk. Which unfortunately you seem to be a part of.
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@biglloyd001 he is a fecking toff do gooder like you..you motherfucker..them two lads try to throw a little girl under an on coming taxi before they abducted little jamie.then they broke nearly every bone in his body before putting him on a rail line to be cut in half..then both were set free a few years later..and it was all because of coonts like you and will self who cant keep your do gooder noses out of anything..you have blood on your hands..toff coont..
No society worth belonging to would consider locking up a child until they grew old and died, no matter how serious a crime that child might have committed. If you have a problem with this basic application of civilised justice, there are plenty of tinpot dictatorships around the world where our treasured human rights dont mean squat. Maybe you should move to one.
@dibbleman 'fecking toff do gooder' oh dear. are we 12? I have no blood on my hands i just happen to agree with free speech. Im not saying what they did wasnt vile and disgusting, far from it, i was just saying whats stopping somebody from putting the suggestion out there that they didnt know the consequences. Anyway stop trolling now, mr 'man of the nation' Im not a toff but you seriously are acting like someone i would never like to meet but will probably see on the jeremy kyle show one day.
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@biglloyd001 ahh..sorry i was wrong..you not a toff..but a wanna be toff..thats even worse as far as im concerned..lol yes i do agree..mr will self does have the right to voice his opinion..but he realy should get his fecking facts right before spouting off about how them two innocents victims of society didnt know what they were doing before breaking nearly every bone in a babys body then putting his head on a railway track to be decapitated..fuck mr self..do gooder scum.
@dibbleman yeah 'facts' He states his 'opinion' that there was no malice aforethought after he has read the transcripts. so how do you know more than he does about it? Have you even read them? or are you being slightly biased by being friends with relatives? He states his 'opinion' that society has come to this sad state of affairs.hear the applause? people agree.I couldnt care less about your opinion of me, mainly because you've proven you cant put info together and make a correct conclusion.
@biglloyd001 the transcripts were watered down..there was policemen here in liverpool who talked openly about it in pubs..ralph and denise have seen there sons bodie..and told me what they had done to him that werent put in the papers..what the feck do you know biglloyd..? you or will self know feck all..me and 1000s of others in liverpool do..and yes i did hear the applause..the audience of them shows are hand picked..all do gooders..come to liverpool and hear the applause here..
@biglloyd001 its the same when nick griffin is on a talk show..the audience is always hand picked..they will let in %95 ultra left wingers and about %5 right wingers..so that it looks as though most of the country is against the bnp(which i am)but we know it is not true..because over a million voted for them in the local elections..so if question time would of been in liverpool last week..there would of been no applause for will self..just an uproar..or a lynching..
@dibbleman What do I know?Just common sense really!Im not the one stating i know all this privileged information on the case that most of the population dont! Like I say, its like me saying oh i won this bet, my mate saw the winning slip but i have lost it. But i win. Handpicked? You and your conspiracy theories! Id say its more of a case of typical bnp members not ever watching such a show and dare I say it without being branded a toff, well educated and informed people who arent racist.
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@biglloyd001 so you realy think that the handful audience of do gooders applauding will self represent the opinion of the rest of the country on the bulger case..? or is it just a handful of working class people like me that are angry over the killers good treatment for murdering a child..? and what was the comment you removed,,? you stupid bigoted cunt..
I am working class and I agree with Will Self, although I don't like his attitude.But I believe it would have been wrong to jump to conclusions about Venables latest crime.I would much prefer that rehabilitation had been a success for these boys. It was for Mary Bell. Isn't it better that rehab can work for some people, rather than not work?My heart ached for little James,but I also had room in my heart for the 2 other CHILDREN at that time,V&T. Does that make me a toff, or just soft hearted?
@dibbleman as you usual the so called voice of the working class rears its stupid head you dont represent anyone but the ill informed and retarded. its ridiculous to try to view the world in such stupidly simplistic terms
When i was a child, my brother squirted orange juice in my eye. Knowing he needed to clean it up, and knowing that our mother cleaned up messes with Ajax, he came to the conclusion that spraying ajax in my face would clean me up. I may not know a lot about this Bulger case, but its certainly not outside the realms of possibility that these boys, while knowing that killing was wrong, they may not have been able to see how their actions could lead to the death of another
Jinda89 8 hours ago
@inkymoon You’re comparing adult culpability with that of a 10-year-old. In most respects, the law doesn’t do this; driving, drinking, having sex, etc. That’s central to the distinction society makes between ‘adult’ and ‘minor’. Negation of responsibility for children works both ways. As 10-year-olds, their “bad start in life” was still ongoing. When an adult commits murder, the responsibility is entirely theirs. When a 10-year-old commits murder, society has failed to raise that child properly.
neonatalpenguin 1 week ago
when I was ten, I definitely knew right from wrong and more importantly life from death.
inkymoon 1 week ago
@inkymoon Congratulations
neonatalpenguin 1 week ago
@neonatalpenguin I like Will Self and agree with most of his well thought out opinions. The trouble with this particular comment is that it begins to negate the idea of personal responsibility. Lots of people have a bad start in life, they do not all go out and kill. If you take away the idea of responsibility then you could justify revenge attacks on the killers and that would be equally wrong.
inkymoon 1 week ago
@inkymoon How can a 10 year old have personal responsibility ? What normal 10 year old would go to school or eat his greens or brush his teeth if some RESPONSIBLE adult hadn't instilled it in him to do so ?
nags2bitches 1 day ago
@nags2bitches probably not that many - far, far less would kill - what is your point?
inkymoon 1 day ago
@inkymoon You don't yet seem mature enough yet to understand what Will Self is saying, or what neonatalpenguin has already said to you so little point in me discussing with you any furthur.
nags2bitches 19 hours ago
If you believe 10 year olds can commit crimes in the way that adults can then by your own logic you believe they deserve the punishments that adults recieve. In America, this would almost certainly have meant death. Imagine killing two children for the sake of one. And what would the executioner become? A child murderer. He would have to be killed also.
This kind of ridiculous conjecture about 'the way we should punish' is what's holding us back from making everyone happy and equal.
ursie1986 1 week ago
I have read "The Butt" by Will Self, I could not put it down, however it presents a picture of the world run by dreadful people. It has disturbed me. I am still interested in what he has to say, he's interesting and has a view on the world that is valid.....but it may shock you!
ianthemaggot 4 months ago
will self is a free thinking genius
snoopyprobing 8 months ago
@snoopyprobing Will Self is a free thinker. I don't think he deserves the title 'genius'. It annoys me when I encounter people downgrading words like those. It's rather indicative the plummeting standards of modern people when anyone exercising logical or creative (or even both!) thought are dubbed a genius.
Unless of course you have more compelling grounds for using the term? I may be wrong and i'm willing to admit it, i'm an open-minded genius you see ;) (i'm only messing about).
Omnilegence 3 months ago
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Will Self is an intolerable cunt. End of.
Powell101 9 months ago
Will Self pwns eternal
furQ 1 year ago
I suppose it's a bit much to expect rationality, fairness or indeed sanity to flow forth from the keyboards of Youtube users but seriously - the comments section on this video has reminded me that painfully reactionary, exceptionally cuntish people without a clue still exist in droves in England. Will Self had BALLS to air that (rational, reasoned) opinion in front of an audience as typically ill-informed and stupid as the ones usually witnessing Question Time, and got applause for it.
Pepotamo1985 1 year ago 10
Will Self is great. He sent me a book and a handwritten letter once.
lmgoose 1 year ago 2
@lmgoose No way! Did you write to him?
Tomthenigma 11 months ago
@Tomthenigma Nah, I won a local writing competition a couple of years ago, as part of a literature festival at which he did a reading, and at some point he read my entry. Then, a few months later, he sent me a letter of encouragement and a copy of 'We' by Yevgeny Zamyatin. I was buzzing for a whole week, haha. Great book too, if you get a chance.
lmgoose 10 months ago
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@rottweilerfromhell @rottweilerfromhell just the kind of uninteligable retarded spewings id expect from some one who tries to argue who has the tougher army hahah and your 33 pathetic you act like a 2 year old
jdofb 1 year ago
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@rottweilerfromhell @rottweilerfromhell just the kind of uninteligable retarded spewings id expect from some one who tries to argue who has the tougher army hahah and your 33 pathetic you act like a 2 year old
jdofb 1 year ago
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jdofb 1 year ago
@rottweilerfromhell as usual the voice of the moron rears its head i didnt say there was anything wrong with the working class you retard what i said is you are MISREPRESENTING the working class hence i used the phrase "so called voice of" next time read and re read make sure you understand it all retard
jdofb 1 year ago
Other than daft shite about my risk to small children, what's your point here? That because they had an education, good food and the odd day out they were gone soft on? These things are not really luxury items are they? You either believe in diminished responsibility for kids or you don't. If you do, and you aim to rehabilitate, then unpalettable as it might seem, you have to try to treat these kids reasonably well as that's the best way to end up with reasonably well behaved adults.
TheNotoriousBOA 2 years ago 4
From the reports of the court case which documented the reactions of the kids themselves. If the reports are wrong then take it up with those that wrote them. Also, dont accuse me of being a liar or calling the Bulgers liars, when i did no such thing.
My original point was that PEOPLE (ie,not the Bulgers, just everday dickheads including the media) make up ridiculous bullshit about what actually happened. Sure, those kids were sick fucks but so was any adult in 93 who wanted to kill them
asturel13 2 years ago
Cont... how does two wrongs make a right? Sure, If the Bulgers or those who actually knew James wanted revenge then thats understandable - like I said in my original post. But people who arent directly involved need to mind their own business and shut the fuck up to be honest.
asturel13 2 years ago
@sonicandroid909 well..i dont like it either..id like to leave..but i have all my family and friends here..so its hard for anyone to just leave..even though britain is a shithole and favours the criminals over the decent folk..its still home to most of us..apologies sonic..no offence meant..
dibbleman 2 years ago
@sonicandroid909 maybe because he/she doesnt wanna go live somwere else..who the feck are you to be telling people to move from this country because they have voiced there opinion which you dont agree with..?
dibbleman 2 years ago
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All you peple who believe these two lads didnt know what they where doing just because they where 10, get into the real world!! when i was 10, i would know not to go and torture someone throw bricks at a little 4 year old boy and then tie him to a bloody train track! listen to yourselves you idiots!! course they knew what they were doing! they are evil,and always will be!And what does our country do for them when they come out of prison protect them with a new identity, what a joke of a country!
looklfctv 2 years ago
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fuckin cunt of a m,an to say its not there fault "cause they were only 10" get a grip u fuckin ballsack,,its in the publics interest to know if he has done bad things again,,what a fuckin muppet.
jackdawhipet 2 years ago
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@jackdawhipet at last..somone is talking sense..i totaly agree with you mate..its a pity others dont see it this way..fecking sad.
dibbleman 2 years ago
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@dibbleman too right matey,comments like that saying that those too evil little cunts should get respect is just retarded!!!!!!!!! what a total prick of a man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jackdawhipet 2 years ago
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A 10 year old is old enough to know better, when I was that age I did. As for Will Self (who looks like a strange morph between Daniel Craig and Pete Townsend, and has talentless as both) well I wonder what he would think if it happened to someone close to him.
ChrisGS1982 2 years ago
The law justifiably, in my view- doesnt allow children to drive, smoke, drink, gamble, have sex, etc until adolescence, because children arent deemed culpable enough to take responsibility in these situations. For the same reason, the law states that a child cannot be punished with the same level of severity as an adult. I dont see a problem with that.
neonatalpenguin 2 years ago 16
@neonatalpenguin how can you equate driving, smoking, sex and gambling to the act of killing? Taking a life is on another level completely and to say that a ten year old doesn't understand that is insulting the intelligence of ten year olds the world over. Do people suddenly magically understand responsibility when they turn 18? Of course they don't, it is instilled from an early age.
inkymoon 1 week ago
@inkymoon Whether or not the Bulger killers knew the difference between right and wrong is almost irrelevant. They were 10 years old, and therefore not legally culpable. During adolescence, we gradually cease to be extensions of our family’s will (or lack of it), and become free and culpable adults. In all likelihood, you and I were both raised with great moral care and attention. Lucky us. The desire to punish a 10-year-old as an adult doesn’t make you the good guy here.
neonatalpenguin 1 week ago
@ChrisGS1982
What a poisonous, reactionary cunt you are. Britain is one of the only countries in THE WORLD where children aged 10 can be put on trial and culpability and awareness on the part of the child is automatically accepted if those children commit crimes. What they did was absolutely heinous - but they had NO IDEA of the severity or ramifications of what they were doing. Children that young can be rehabilitated and taught to be normal members of society.
Pepotamo1985 1 year ago
@ChrisGS1982 You just keep your silly cosmetic opinions to yourself dear, you're way out of your depth. Stick to the bleepy games and leave the thinking to adults.
nilbud 7 months ago
@ChrisGS1982 Ever read any Will Self? Talentless he is not. You may not like his stuff, but to completely disregard it demonstrates either immense ignorance or immense philistinism. He's not excusing what they did, he's being logical as only an outsider can be about something so sensitive. We shouldn't make all our decisions based on 'what sort of vengeance would we want if we were victims' unless we want to live in a brutal, primitive society. As for his appearance look up the genetic fallacy.
bertiethetoupee4 6 months ago
I can't tell you how relieved it makes me to hear the rational responses on here (and on a few other places). I think the tabloid coverage of this case is beyond shameful and I really don't believe they speak for 'the british public' (as if there were such an entity) as they so frequently claim. Those of us who disagree with the media's demands for 'justice' (aka vengeance) need to make ourselves heard, because the way that politicians respond to, and so empower, the tabloids is very worrying.
nickemp23 2 years ago 8
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blastarrbollaxIII 2 years ago
'I only watched Question Time to see Vorderman' - That is all you needed to say for us to get a full opinion of you. Begone fool.
TSEPHTON9 2 years ago 10
Ooh golly gosh, you really socked it to the WIll Self lovers eh?
Vorderman was a stuttering, uniformed, inarticulate buffoon.
Her performance was worse than Nick GRiffin's.
1878EFC2008 2 years ago 9
What an idiot Will Self is. How dare he approach this subject with rationality and forethought? Has he not seen the blanket reactionary ignorance that is appropriate for such situations.
TSEPHTON9 2 years ago 50
Oh, and by the way, my sympathies are absolutely with the Bulger parents. Of course they are.
But what if these boys, being ten, had no FULL knowledge of their actions; had no FULL concept of life and death. How frightening is that they may not be evil, but a product of their society? You can understand why the evil tag is bandied around, if this is the alternative.
TSEPHTON9 2 years ago 5
@TSEPHTON9 your sympathy is placed in the right place as Im sure everyones is with the family of Jamie Bulger but the events that took place that day were a horrific tragedy and branding 10 year olds evil is just a very linear way of approaching a very sad and terrifying crime and it is for a civilized society to address these subjects with "rationality and forethought" other wise the criminal justice system would lead us to very dark place of medieval barbarity
88hurts 2 years ago 5
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TSEPHTON9 2 years ago
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@88hurts I absolutely agree. That is the point I was making. I think that people who use the word evil are doing so to avoid closer analysis of the situation. After all, if they look too closely, they may see a reflection that is a tad bit too frightening for them.
TSEPHTON9 2 years ago
@88hurts lol..you toffs talk shit..and penguin wrote ''will self kicks ass'' cos he was agreeing that venables and thompson should be wrapped up in cotton wool and protected for butchering a 3 year old baby..they were never punished for what they did..you people make me sick..i dare anyone of yous brave chaps to come meet me in liverpool city centre and speak out like your doing now..will self is a scumbag.he will get his come uppence one day..rest assured..
dibbleman 2 years ago
He's not scum, he's approached a subject thoughtfully, he is simply using his brain he has not carried out any violence yet you want to fight people and hope that Will Self gets his comeuppence, what, you hope he gets his head kicked in because he was asked for his opinion and gave it? I know being part of the moral majority makes you think you have a license to beat up people, but in my mind you've just exhibited the hate that runs through you, the hate that ran through two ten year olds once
PomBare 2 years ago 4
@PomBare i havent mentioned i want to fight anyone..? i said id like to hear some of the do gooders speak out in liverpool town centre and see the reaction it would cause..a riot id say..as for will self..karma will deal with him..scumbag shite like him always get there come uppence in one way or another..and you aint part of any moral majority..just part of a small liberal do gooder minority..most likely middle class lazy student studying economics at uni..?
dibbleman 2 years ago
when has the majority ever been right? I don't attach myself to categories like 'liberal do gooder' it simply doesn't cover the spectrum of my world views. And you've attempted the same jab twice by predicting my current status, which you were wrong about. You should be a marketer with those demographic aspirations.
PomBare 2 years ago 3
@PomBare when we have people like you and will self showing sympathy towards two murderers of one of the most horrific crimes in british history..it just shows how much our society has fucked up in the last 20 years..you middle class toffs have been protected by your parents money since birth and have been given the best.you dont know what realy goes on in the real world because your in your own little bubble..you and will self are shite of the earth and care nothing for little jamie..
dibbleman 2 years ago
@dibbleman alls you know about the real world is what you read in the daily telegraph..etc you know nothing what goes on at street level..were the real salt of the earth lies..you should be ashamed of yourself..what about the pain and suffering of the bulger family..? ralph bulger is a friend of mine and is in a living hell..people like you and will self should keep your fecking mouths shut and your opinions to your public schoolboy private clubs..you make me sick..
dibbleman 2 years ago
How dare you, that is an awful presumption to make. This video talks of society's response to the case, that is what we are debating here. How do you know I don't care for Jamie? I've put thousands of hours voluntary work in my community helping the needy and underpriviledged. Ive given so much support to the homeless people in my town, and I talk to them at a street level believe me. I've been an ardent denouncer of the middle class in this country, I am a true socialist, Ive been whole...
PomBare 2 years ago 2
heartedly behind every facet of the justice for hilsbrough campaign. It is an astonishing personal attack on me, you have described everything I am not with the exception that I may fall in the lower middle class band, but I have attacked those very foundations time and again, but you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder, nothing you have said relates to me. Also You declare Will Self cares not for Jamie, how do you know? This is a particular issue about the public's reaction
PomBare 2 years ago
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@PomBare why are you defending will self..? he said there was no malice of forethought to the murder..they try to murder a little girl a few hours before they got jamie..they knew what they were doing..they were not 2 little confused kids whos game went a bit too far..but evil cold blooded killers..simple as that..so if you care about the lower classes..stop taking sides with this middle class idiot will self..im sick and angry with the care and protection the murderers have been afforded..
dibbleman 2 years ago
@dibbleman will self knows fuck all about what went on that day on the railway track..me and 1000s of other liverpool people do..and it aint nothing like you heard in the papers i can assure you..the truth has been well covered up..thompson and venables should of NEVER been let out..i apologise to you because i got you wrong..but will self is a piece of dirt who should keep his mouth shut..and let the bulger family see justice done for there little boy..
dibbleman 2 years ago
@dibbleman Firstly dibble man I am from Bow East London hardly a posh region so before you make a stupid point about someone being rational about this case for being as you so eloquently put it a "toff" think about leaving you prejudice behind. I understand that this is an emotional subject for people and I completely understand why some people have views like your own but you must understand how I have come to my own.
88hurts 2 years ago 3
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@88hurts yeah.yeah..im sure you are mate..i bet you have a nice posh flat nowdays a bit further down the road in bohimian brick lane..? lol
dibbleman 2 years ago
Well I do live comfortably still in Tower Hamlets I might add but even so you would begrudge me an opinion based on wealth? But it seems to me that your just looking for a reason to whine and a verbal confrontation which would be pointless and achieve nothing for me. I have expressed my opinion and you said mine was wrong failing to state why it was wrong but instead painting pictures of a "liberal" upper class society set against the popular opinion which is laughable to intelligent people
88hurts 2 years ago 2
@88hurts anyone defending the murderers of a child is wrong..and most working class people will agree with me..go into the blind beggar or the ten bells in london and ask the drinkers there who is right..you or me..or be even braver..come up north to liverpool..lol..that would be funny to see..you wouldnt be so smug then my friend..not many will agree with you here..lol
dibbleman 2 years ago
I highley doubt that most people would agree with you on anything but listen I am not defending what they did as a crime it is one of the few crimes that sends chills down my spine when I hear about it I am simply stating that the chance for redemption must be applied in all murder cases as must a defense for all it is a core human right. "even braver come up to liverpool" you really are scary you must believe it is genetic trait of bnp scum to be better fighters then everyone else you fool
88hurts 2 years ago
@88hurts i aint bnp..i agree that they are scum..but so are you..you fecking moron..how is redemption a core human right after such a short time locked away..they were put in a holiday camp you fool and given a good education and more care than most kids from working class backgrounds are ever given..now they are being mothercoddled and wrapped up in cotton wool again..even one of them might have commited another serious offence..you stupid coont..idiots like you have fecked the uk up.nobwank
dibbleman 2 years ago
Shit you are confused your own comment one day ago "bnp(which i am)" now there scum?. . so you agree now. Dude seriously I made a point agree disagree its up to you, debate is how society grows but you don't seem to do that your priorities are insulting someone I have nothing more to say to you on this matter I understand this is an emotional subject for you and understand the anger but for the benefits of the whole society you cannot give into brutality. I wish you the best in life
88hurts 2 years ago
@88hurts no no no squire..if you read my post proper..i said most of the country are against the bnp(which i am)..meaning i am against them also..always have been..and if you lived here in liverpool when the murders happend all them years ago..you would understand why most of us are still angry at venables and thompson..especialy when they were laughing in court..and smirking at denise and ralph bulger..10 years old or not,,both were very wicked..and none have shown any real remorse since..
dibbleman 2 years ago
@dibbleman i came across this will self video by chance..there is dozens of other videos for jamie bulger..and most of the posters are against venables and thompson..and are all for jamie same as me..but cos will self is a fecking liberal do gooder..most of yous that are supporting him are liberal do gooders yourselfs..birds of a feather type of things..but yous are a real small minority..check out the other jamie bulger vids and see for yourselfs,,and you will see how many are same as me...
dibbleman 2 years ago
Oh, the "do-gooder" label again, been seeing that a lot recently. How does NOT wanting to kill two 10yr old kids make one a do-gooder exactly. Sure they are 27 now but plenty of people here in Liverpool wanted to kill them at the time, I remember it well. Surely though, isn't it the right of James's family to get revenge if they want it? How would Ralph Bulger feel if some random idiot "do-gooder" kills them two and takes that right away from him?People who aren't directly involved need to stfu.
asturel13 2 years ago
Comment removed ok my mistake I have said on several occasions I understand your point of view I don't blame you for it or think that you are bad person for your view in fact it shows that you have very strong emotions for justice. But some times when we are at the most emotional we loose sense of reason and wrath simply dictates which is dangerous on numerous levels
88hurts 2 years ago
@88hurts well thanks for the understanding..no hard feeling..iv had my say..everyone has there own different view on things and now im going to leave this debate and let you good gentlemen get on with it alone..cheers..
dibbleman 2 years ago
Yeah mate, Im from Liverpool myself and actually those two boys were not smirking at the bulgers at all nor were they laughing. This is a typical example of how people make up lies and false stories to justify their hate. Its the easiest thing in the world to simply dismiss them as evil rather than make an actual effort to understand the reasons behind the crime and what turned those boys into killers. I would rather blame society and the parents before blaming two 10yr old children.
asturel13 2 years ago
@dibbleman
Where does everyone get the idea that young people's institutions are like holiday camps? I don't know what sort of holidays you go on, but I doubt if living for 10 years with a load of highly disturbed teenagers is your idea of a good time.
TheNotoriousBOA 2 years ago 25
It's not as simple as that and its not about taking sides or being in one camp or the other. The pain Ralph Bulger must have felt since that day is unimaginable, if I knew somebody in that position I would care deeply for their loss and convey my deepest sincerity. I just have my own reservations about the psychology of society and I/Will Self/or whoever has the right to state them.
PomBare 2 years ago 3
Can always rely on Will Self to bring some rationality and sense to a complicated and emotional situation.
nickemp23 2 years ago 7
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will self is a piece of shit..and i hope he rots in hell same as thompson and venables..RIP little jamie..xxx
dibbleman 2 years ago
@dibbleman RE the comment a couple below, You completely irrational and idiotic person. Join the sun brigade and kindly disappear as your lynch mobs and tabloid agenda arent welcome. Will is making a completely rational point as per usual and isnt taking anybodys side, listen to what he says- it makes complete sense. Nice to hear him on national tv arguing against the annoying and disturbing mob culture in the uk. Which unfortunately you seem to be a part of.
biglloyd001 2 years ago 6
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@biglloyd001 he is a fecking toff do gooder like you..you motherfucker..them two lads try to throw a little girl under an on coming taxi before they abducted little jamie.then they broke nearly every bone in his body before putting him on a rail line to be cut in half..then both were set free a few years later..and it was all because of coonts like you and will self who cant keep your do gooder noses out of anything..you have blood on your hands..toff coont..
dibbleman 2 years ago
No society worth belonging to would consider locking up a child until they grew old and died, no matter how serious a crime that child might have committed. If you have a problem with this basic application of civilised justice, there are plenty of tinpot dictatorships around the world where our treasured human rights dont mean squat. Maybe you should move to one.
neonatalpenguin 2 years ago 5
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dibbleman 2 years ago
@dibbleman 'fecking toff do gooder' oh dear. are we 12? I have no blood on my hands i just happen to agree with free speech. Im not saying what they did wasnt vile and disgusting, far from it, i was just saying whats stopping somebody from putting the suggestion out there that they didnt know the consequences. Anyway stop trolling now, mr 'man of the nation' Im not a toff but you seriously are acting like someone i would never like to meet but will probably see on the jeremy kyle show one day.
biglloyd001 2 years ago 2
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@biglloyd001 ahh..sorry i was wrong..you not a toff..but a wanna be toff..thats even worse as far as im concerned..lol yes i do agree..mr will self does have the right to voice his opinion..but he realy should get his fecking facts right before spouting off about how them two innocents victims of society didnt know what they were doing before breaking nearly every bone in a babys body then putting his head on a railway track to be decapitated..fuck mr self..do gooder scum.
dibbleman 2 years ago
@dibbleman yeah 'facts' He states his 'opinion' that there was no malice aforethought after he has read the transcripts. so how do you know more than he does about it? Have you even read them? or are you being slightly biased by being friends with relatives? He states his 'opinion' that society has come to this sad state of affairs.hear the applause? people agree.I couldnt care less about your opinion of me, mainly because you've proven you cant put info together and make a correct conclusion.
biglloyd001 2 years ago 3
@biglloyd001 the transcripts were watered down..there was policemen here in liverpool who talked openly about it in pubs..ralph and denise have seen there sons bodie..and told me what they had done to him that werent put in the papers..what the feck do you know biglloyd..? you or will self know feck all..me and 1000s of others in liverpool do..and yes i did hear the applause..the audience of them shows are hand picked..all do gooders..come to liverpool and hear the applause here..
dibbleman 2 years ago
@biglloyd001 its the same when nick griffin is on a talk show..the audience is always hand picked..they will let in %95 ultra left wingers and about %5 right wingers..so that it looks as though most of the country is against the bnp(which i am)but we know it is not true..because over a million voted for them in the local elections..so if question time would of been in liverpool last week..there would of been no applause for will self..just an uproar..or a lynching..
dibbleman 2 years ago
@dibbleman What do I know?Just common sense really!Im not the one stating i know all this privileged information on the case that most of the population dont! Like I say, its like me saying oh i won this bet, my mate saw the winning slip but i have lost it. But i win. Handpicked? You and your conspiracy theories! Id say its more of a case of typical bnp members not ever watching such a show and dare I say it without being branded a toff, well educated and informed people who arent racist.
biglloyd001 2 years ago 2
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@biglloyd001 so you realy think that the handful audience of do gooders applauding will self represent the opinion of the rest of the country on the bulger case..? or is it just a handful of working class people like me that are angry over the killers good treatment for murdering a child..? and what was the comment you removed,,? you stupid bigoted cunt..
dibbleman 2 years ago
I am working class and I agree with Will Self, although I don't like his attitude.But I believe it would have been wrong to jump to conclusions about Venables latest crime.I would much prefer that rehabilitation had been a success for these boys. It was for Mary Bell. Isn't it better that rehab can work for some people, rather than not work?My heart ached for little James,but I also had room in my heart for the 2 other CHILDREN at that time,V&T. Does that make me a toff, or just soft hearted?
alemappurple 2 years ago 4
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biglloyd001 2 years ago
@dibbleman You're right, do good cunts can't keep their fucking cunty noses out of it.
The criminals are always seen as the victims nowadays.
TheDensley7 1 year ago
@dibbleman as you usual the so called voice of the working class rears its stupid head you dont represent anyone but the ill informed and retarded. its ridiculous to try to view the world in such stupidly simplistic terms
jdofb 1 year ago