men, i thank God i have come to the maturity in faith in God that i could watch any program and still not be shaken, so what 12 , 12, what Horus. The Israelite prophets and the law had been prophesying the coming of Christ, the stars and the moon announced the birth of Christ such that 3 wise men were able to see it from the stars. I've had Muslims try to point this out to me about Horus, and Christmas being named after the suns rotation. What does this mean? Well If Christ is truly the Son...
@childofconvenant .. of God then why wouldn't the Egyptians have had some evidences of his coming in their history. The fact that there is a Horus like that shows u that even the Egyptian were awaiting on a Messiah. Even in Yoruba culture they have Orisha, they there is Olodumare God but because of iniquity man cannot get to God except thru Orisha. Even the Yoruba's were waiting on Christ. The sun gets still for 3 day around the Christmas period, why not? Why wouldn't the sun recognize the Son..
@childofconvenant of God. And if truly Jews were living in Egypt then surely they must have gotten some divine revelations. If anything this makes me to have more faith in the Lord. Throughout African religions one can see evidences of expectation of a spiritual deliverer. And here he has come and gone and is coming back again. Put ur house in Order O Israel. do not be like the slothful servant who was not watching. If those African priests were alive today many of them would have believed
@childofconvenant you are totally wrong. No one was waiting for Christ. Christ is Man itself in these traditions. & In Yoruba The Orisha is the name of the Gods or the Ancestors Olodumare is The Creator. Orisha is not Christ. DOnt mislead people with that Christian mentality..
and these videos I posted are nothing more than comperative mythology, in other words stories that sound similar, Why because they are all lies copies of each other.
Most want to be carried along through life, but the reality is that that is just a dream or wishfull thinking about miracle explanation #1 something hapens & no one can explain it they inmedietly think it's gods will,
I hope one day you will come to the realization tthat god is just a myth written into the jesus myth..Most might think after reading what I write I'm an atheist, well I'm not, not entirely. I'm more of a realist, You should be 1 too, stop dreaming WAKE UP.
The day will come when you(all those who comment & think you know more than tghe previews or later poster) understand & realize there was never any need for a god + you will understand the physics/basics of how a Universe could can and have been created, no matter how much or ho how simple scientists try to explain how Universes, planets, life could & have been created the Uneducated even the educated Christians who base their lives according to the bible. will never understand anything.
Why did the magi, ( adherants to zoraster/zarathusra) come and give myrrth, gold,and frankinsence to baby yeheshua(not jesus) and where did they get their knowledge from? Don't believe everything your told, do your own research, instead of being a "robot"! evolve or dissolve!
After Jesus (proven existence) our original deal was off. Jesus made it possible for sinners to be redeemed. So be thankful you've been given the opportunity of salvation. You will never know what until you open your heart and allow yourself to actually FEEL it. Don't kid yourself, there are many things beyond our ability of reason. The end of the universe for example. Just like your dog is unable to comprehend calculus. Be humble, without humbleness and humility, you can not understand God.
@Hollywood4Fun i'm gonna copy this comment, i have a file of wonderful comments that i copy and use for arguments and debates and exhortation, this is one of them can a dog comprehend calculus (shoo i can't) we are like animals to the creator. A dog is no different and animal than the rat, or his cousin the wolf. But man "had mercy" and chose to exalt him above other animals.
@rutha/ Are u serious? Ancient History is more evident than ANY religious BELIEF. It's FACTS in black & white. PROOF destroys ALL FAITH based OPINIONS. Peace
Josephus was Black, not European. Just like Yoshua Ben Yosef (Christians call Jesus). NewsFlash! There is no Saviour, only 1 who made ALL (The Most High). No Trinity Hosea 13:4,
to the ones who mark this as spam plain and simple there was no need for a god to create anything, so you are going to tell me god is involved in the 65 million galaxies there are(estimated) anyone who studies so much as you claim you have realy has nothing else better to do, when you die & that is inevitable what would have been the point of spending so much time and learning so much? to live a better life? Hope you are happy. + Aliens are real the writing or painting is on the walls/caves.
@TheVirgotube if you are with a woman for five years and you love her you will see the original twelve.and you wont forget that twelve because that twelve is true cult effect.the twelve times a woman has her period.now imagine the woman with a womb that can have a baby per month.imagine the dynamic changes which would have to take place naturally or just collect her eggs.;D
the last supper is just a representation of the solar system Jesus=Sun, 12 Disciples=12 Planets, Christians need to get their heads out of the book(the bibble) & read/learn the facts, back in those days people use similies for everything, like I'm surprised you can't see the writing on the wall.
I have a degree in Ancient History and Archaeology and read hieroglyphs. This video is LYING to you, and no-one who knows anything about the ancient world would take it seriously for a moment.
If You want to believe this rubbish - OK, so be it. If however you are a real truth seeker, I suggest you go to the nowheretorun1984 channel and watch the videos of Chris White. He and others debunk this absurd nonsense, and offer some beautiful truth in exchange.
@Franknarfable, you know what would be absolutely a hoot? If you and a Da Vinci code believer got together for a "debate.". Skill level aside, and he would have the better prima facia case, you could both moan and whine and holler claiming the other person is wrong. And you what, for once you'd both be right!
St. Paul's letters document him meeting St. Peter and others. The very bones of the apostles such as St. Thomas exist. There is little if any question as to Jesus and the apostles existence. Why did Jesus choose 12? Probably the 12 tribes of Israel. Jesus fulfilled the Jewish law as seen in so many ways. But what if Jesus dying on the cross really did fulfill the very pagan vision of the sun on a cross? Indeed He foresaw His crucifixion. God wrote this true myth (story) !
@cmottes - I doubt Jesus, the apostles and the disciples existed. Jesus dying on the cross is a representation of Julius Caesar. He was stabbed to death and then hung on a cross afterwards - the opposite of Jesus. Elements of the Jesus where taken from Moses and Joseph (amongst other things) and the 12 possibly come from Joseph's 12 brothers.
@Franknarfable Ok, so you doubt. I believe Jesus and the apostles were real. Your belief of representation of Caesar is thoroughly false. Roman crucifixion was a widely employed form of capital punishment. And Julius Caesar's body simply lay for 3 hours and was carried home. He was not hung on a cross. You will not find it in the vast historical records, only your oddball websites. Elements of the gospels *parallel* and reference the old testament. Yes12 tribes, 12 brothers, 12 apostles
@cmottes - So a wax effigy of Caesar was not raised up during his funeral? I think you'll find it was. I would like you to find me a scholar that denies this happened. FAIL.
Also, it is WIDELY known that a Roman soldier called Cassius Longinus plotted Caesars death. And another Roman soldier called Cassius Longinus pierced Jesus with a spear. A spear he received from his grandfather who was awarded it by Julius Caesar.
Please, don't deny that any of that is FACT. You'll make a fool of yourself
@Franknarfable [1] It's not that I don't like you or have concern for you as a person, but I have little sympathy for anyone who isn't the least themselves concerned with the truth of what they are talking about. Listen, I'm going to respond since you addressed me. If you have any further actual questions let me know. But consider any further "did you know" followed by utter insincere rehash of a comic book already asked and answered. (continued in [2])
@Franknarfable [2] Since neither you nor I said anything about the wax effigy raised at Caesar's funeral why disingenuously pretend we did? I think you'll find what you actually said before was Caesar "was stabbed to death then hung on a cross." As I said utterly false. Was a wax effigy made of him later? Yes. Was the effigy hung on a cross? No. Got it? Longinus? The Roman soldier is not named in the bible. Me deny facts? I haven't. Rather you please quit making up falsehoods.
@cmottes - "Since neither you nor I said anything about the wax effigy raised at Caesar's funeral why disingenuously pretend we did?" - What does it matter? A representation of Caesar was raised up, arms outstretched.
"The Roman soldier is not named in the bible" - I never said he was. He is mentioned in Apocrypha. Does that not count as early Christian literature?
"Was the effigy hung on a cross? No" - So what was it then? A machane. Where his arms outstretched? Yes. The imagery is the SAME.
@cmottes - Did you know that the ministry of Jesus is a representation of the conquests of Vespasian/Titus as they marched through Judea during the wars? I want you to show me how "knowledgeable people have shown it to be false and distorted".
The theory is, that Jesus Christianiity was part of Vespasians propaganda of peace after the turbulent civil wars and Roman-Jewish wars. Simon, Jesus, John, Mary etc are parodies of persons described in the Jewish War therefore NOT REAL.
@Franknarfable [6] Did you know that the ministry of Jesus is real? And happened in Galilee and other real places? Did you know it was not Vespasian's military conquests? Did you know Jesus said those who live by the sword die by the sword? Did you know he has an awful understanding of scripture and if you read anything of his he takes a words in scriptures and claims they mean something else? The "theory" is false. The apostles, Jesus, Mary, etc are real. Carotta is parody.
@cmottes - Titus begins his campaign at Galilee, his men fish the enemy from the water. He arrives at Gadara, the enemy described as wild beasts that flee into the water. In Jerusalem, a woman called Mary eats the flesh of her own son during passover. Three men crucified, one survives. Simon is killed and John is spared.
Jewish War - Josephus.
Events appearing in the same sequence as the NT. It's satire buddy, the ministry of Jesus is about as real as the adventures of spiderman.
@Franknarfable "It's satire buddy, the ministry of Jesus is about as real as the adventures of spiderman." - As a liar, you're unimpressive. Please look up "satire" before misusing it. And if that's your truth, I pity you, my sad friend. To your nonsense - you say Titus crushes people to "fish disciples." A tale, not on passover, which revolted Romans became its religion? Josephus' 3 friends were unnamed. You have Titus as Pilate yet a missionary. The 2 thieves were not Simon and John.
@Franknarfable [7] I am sorry if I seem harsh. Really, if you are reading Carotta and find it entertaining, fantastic. It is like a really really bad version of Dan Brown. I can tell you every scholar and 99% of people who have even heard of Carotta not only know it is a joke, but can see the silliness of what he does. You do realize what he does, right? He takes a scripture passage and just says the words stand for something else. Carotta likely wrote it as a parody (a joke). Look it up.
@Franknarfable ‘Render unto Caesar,’ declared Jesus, ‘the things that are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.’ Some free advice... the internet is also a great resource. Its a nice idea when you yourself come across a claim like Carotta's recent Caesar-Christ book, check it out ! Read a little about it. You'll find there are many good sources on the internet who can explain it and help you see why knowledgeable people have shown it to be false and distorted.
@cmottes - Also, I am giving you some insights discovered by Carotta, I am not subscribing to his entire theory. These insights support Roman authorship of the New Testament. Yes crucifixion was widely employed which is why it's a CLEVER literary device. On the surface it seems like a run of the mill crucifixion but the initiated (or educated) can appreciate the different levels of meaning. Or do you think that doesn't happen in intelligently written literature? It does. All the time.
@Franknarfable [3] If you buy into any of Carotta for real, I would be happy to answer your questions. Carotta is widely believed to have written a *parody.* The book isn't even meant to be taken seriously and guess what, almost no one did. It is literally a joke. It isn't even remotely close to the plausibility of Dan Brown. Carotta takes words and claims they mean something else. Did the Romans write the apocrypha too? All the copies? Did they found churches in Corinth and Ephesus?
@cmottes - "Did the Romans write the apocrypha too? All the copies? Did they found churches in Corinth and Ephesus?" - Yes. If they wrote the NT then surely logic follows they'd have written everything else. I believe Carotta makes some interesting identifications, but I don't buy into his entire explanation. His identification of Joseph of Arimathea as a typological character based upon Joseph bar Mathis is another interesting identification.
@Franknarfable [4] So the cult of Caesar faked the existence of St. Peter? St Paul too? John the Evangelist who was imprisoned on Patmos? St. Thmoas as a missionary in India? The Roman cult of Caesar was thoroughly versed in the old testament? They knew to parallel Elizabeth visiting Mary with King David finding the ark of the covenant? They knew to seamlessly integrate psalms, Genesis, Exodus? They disguised themselves as Jews, infiltrated the holy land and made countless converts?
@cmottes - St Peter / Simon is based on the rebel Simon Bar Giora and John on the rebel leader John of Giscala. John 21 - Jesus predicts that Simon will be lead to his death, we later find out that he died in Rome, and he also predicts that John will be spared. That's exactly what happens to the rebel leaders. Simon also denies Titus three times just as Peter denies Jesus, etc.
Close friends of Vespasian/Titus where extremely well versed in the OT, see Philo and his brothers.
@Franknarfable Oh, Simon Bar Giora, I see. So when Jesus who you believe is the Roman Caesar says he will build his church it is upon the Jewish rebel leader Bar Giora, even though the Romans then kill Bar Giora. Yet the Roman Vespasian/Titus who crushed Galilee 40 years after Jesus were actually then "fishing" out the disciples from Galilee including Bar Giora who Jesus, already crucified, appoints as the rock upon which His church will be built. Bar Giora resisted then fled Titus.
@cmottes - "They disguised themselves as Jews, infiltrated the holy land and made countless converts?" - You think they need to disguise themselves as Jews to make people convert? The holy land was destroyed, they owned it, they had power, influence, resources and countless allies to assist conversions throughout the Empire. They could close places of worship, convert those places, install bishops, publish, distribute, etc, etc.
So yes, of course it was possible. If they wanted it done, it was
@Franknarfable "You think they need to disguise themselves as Jews to make people convert?" If you understood or read any history (other than from on a Coratta website) or the gospels, you'd see why.
@Franknarfable [5] They built hundreds of churches, attended synagogues, became missionaries to far off places? They debated with the Jews whether they should follow Mosaic law? They though Romans were thrown to the lions for believing in Christ? They died for their beliefs? Yes crucifixion was a widely employed form of capital punishment which is why it was REAL and not a literary device. Or do you think real things don't happen? They do. All the time.
@cmottes - "Yes crucifixion was a widely employed form of capital punishment which is why it was REAL and not a literary device" - I'm not saying crucifixion wasn't real. Though if you where to represent Caesar then it's perfect, surely they could of killed him in numerous different ways. Hung from a tree, tied to a stake, beheaded, etc.
Josephus witnessed three men crucified and one survives. Perfect. Let's use that.
Why is it unlikely that a preacher in Galilee really did recruit 12 disciples? How do months or signs of the zodiac or 'star gods' get turned into fishermen and tax collectors- flawed men who doubt and betray? The more mundane interpretation makes more sense to me. How did Jesus' 12 disciples 'aid him in his journey across the sky'? (Ra is towed, not Horus!) The Jesus/Horus theory is more far fetched and takes more faith to believe than orthodox Christian theology does, and I'm an atheist!
@notjam3 The Egyptians never worshipped the sun. It was based upon a misunderstanding on the part of the Greeks, and later upon the part of modern Egyptologists.
@notjam3 The Maiden Queen was a virgin in the representation of her form as Nekbet, for example. And so too with Isis and Hathor. Queen Mut was impregnated by the spirit Kneph whilst Thoth recorded the edict of the birth of the divine son. Pretty much a Immucalato Conceptio.
@notjam3 LOL, that's actually a lie - she does the EXACT OPPOSITE. Read the New ZEITGEIST Part 1 Sourcebook (2010)
stellarhousepublishing. com /zeitgeistsourcebook. pdf
She substantiates all the claims with the most highly respected and credentialed scholars as explained in the preface. You have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about.
One man's truth is another's lie at the end of the day. And does your book not teach you tolerance or to love thy neighbour or fellow man. And if the Vatican is so rich then why does the church always ask for offerings. Did Jesus not tell the rich man to sell his belongings and give the money to the poor? Im sorry I went to a Catholic school and tried to believe but unfortunately my mind is free. The holy books are just books. Self contradicting ill educated drivel. Good stories though.
To be fair to all who say this is this and that is that all we have are ancient texts most of which could have been miss translated. Also to those who believe and disregard any view from people who actually think and use their so called GOD GIVEN MINDS you believe in fairy tales written in the day and age before we knew the world was a giant sphere, before we knew the earth circled the sun. Basically before humans actually studied their surroundings and researched and discovered.
Sathya Sai Baba today has followers from 6 million up to nearly 100 million. Jesus only had 12 when he was alive as far as I am aware. Sathya Sai Baba has been allegedly witnessed to perform many of the same miracles as Jesus with the exception of rising from the dead. Jesus and Baba are just men whom dimwitted, gullible, superstitious, delusional people followed and in both cases still do.
When Christ asks you at judgment, "Who do you say I am?" Make sure you give the pre-Novus Ordo Council answer, "God." If you give God the common Masonic answer out of the Gnostic bible, "you are the son of a burning bush fire (the lord)", you will quickly learn what this world was about and you will have an eternity to pay for it. As the Traditional Catholic Church breathes its last breath, the New Order replaces it. Will you have the knowledge to stand?
Horus & Jesus never be the same person(s). To remain non-confused, the letters in the name Jesus be spelled Jesus and therefore never Horus. Jesus Christ's own disciplines had also known that the man named Horus had been on the earth before the man named Moses had been on the earth whereas Moses and the remaining disciples had always and also known that we're to gladly worship the one who's english letter put together spell: God
I'm not here to convert anyone, just to show that Christ-mythers can't find the evidence to back up their ridiculous claims. You'd think that if they had it, they'd be parading it for the world to see. Instead, they just repeat the claims, hoping that people will be gullible enough to believe them, and too lazy to do any fact-checking.
Revelation 12 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered" this is obviously virgo in the pre dawn standing above the setting moon about to give birth to the rising sun. the twelve stars are twelve zodiac signs I find it amusing that alot of fundimentalists love the DayStar (SUN) net work worship on sundays
UMMM! Well I figured this was BS and I was right as I thought. So I am stopping at the quote that Horus had 12 disciples and or help mates. Wrong and something this simple for you to be wrong on shows you know nothing about this subject.
I take it you've never actually read the Book of Amduat. It mentions nothing about Horus having 12 helpers. You can read the Budge translation at sacred-texts(dot)com
@kingdavid246 Anyone with any knowledge of Egyptology will understand the irrelevance of that statement.
Either way, I'm done with debating these topics. It seems futile bothering, even when the evidence is presented - it's denied. It's a waste of time. Have fun trying to impose your opinion on the world.
"many characteristics that Jesus possessed were possessed by numerous Gods before him."
Some, sure. Just like you can find a lot of parallels between Abe Lincoln and JFK, or between any two things, if you try hard enough. But I've researched all of the parallel claims people have been spouting, and found out that about 90% of them are without support. And if the other 10% are significant, then why did people bother to fabricate the other 90?
@dudekin Are you referring to the twelve hours of the night in which Ra, not Horus, went into the under world or are you referring to the twelve disciples of Horus. I'm confused because the only twelve disciples in any of these ancient stories come from the mystery religions misinterpretations written far after Jesus crucifixion to fit their beliefs. By the way who translated these Egyptian carvings and is even what they say true about them? Also the old testament has 12 saints.
Unfortunately for your theory, the Augustan History (3rd century?) is notoriously unreliable (this is the source of the story about the "Christians" worshiping Serapis alongside Christ; though I'm not sure what that proves, since there's no mention of Serapis in the 1st century material; "Christ" is a Jewish term).
@XSC3 What is completely unreliable is Eusebius's "History" of the Christian Church. Now I see you're one of those incorrigible literalists, it's pointless talking you to reason.
"Christ" is a Greek translation from a "Jewish" (in fact, Egyptian-borrowed) concept, MESSIAH = MESSEH in ancient Egyptian. Baptism, "confirmation", Extremaunctio, are all Egyptian "Sacraments".
He who asserts must prove. If you want to say the Luxor inscription asserts the virgin birth of Horus (or any god for that matter), please provide the modern Egyptologist who asserts this. If it's such a well attested fact, this should be an easy task. Sharpe died 129 years ago. Egyptology has advanced considerably since then.
@XSC3 "Egiptology has advanced considerably since then". Go, for instance, to J. Allen.
What you are saying is rubbish. It is completely clear that Jesus is based on Horus, or rather, on Serapis and Horus. See Claudine Carcenac-Pujol's PhD Thesis in Egyptology at Strasbourg University.
See that's the thing, the historicity of Jesus is a completely separate claim from whether God exists and whether it's the Christian deity or someone else. The fact is that the "Horus inspired Jesus" theory is completely debunked, not supported by the ancient evidence. It was proposed by some outdated 19th century writers who didn't have access to the same evidence we have today. It's promoted by conspiracy theories and people desperate to dismiss Jesus as irrelevant.
I disagree, meditation is NOT the only way to "connect with God." People have connected with God in other ways besides meditation for thousands of years. I'm not saying meditation is worthless, but if you're going to say it's the "only way to connect with God" (if you believe such a thing is possible) you're way off, sorry.
I've yet to see convincing evidence that Horus was EVER said to have "twelve disciples" prior to the emergence of the first Christian texts which say that about Jesus. ditto for events like the "baptism by a prophet" or "crucifixion and burial" or "resurrection from the dead after three days," or heck, even the birth from a virgin woman. After Christianity becomes popular? Sure, they can say whatever they want. but to show a positive link, you at least need an EARLIER verified claim
the material level. The material world is a false illusion. Material things are all energy manifested into solid objects by our brain or the quantum world. So meditate and let your Ego go for the ego is an illusion or mask of the self and you will never reach your full potential of love and peace if you don't remove it....
@wyte69allnyte the only problem with that idea is that buddhist monks and hindu mystics (and new age gurus) get killed all the time in accidents or murders. clearly if it were merely a matter of enlightenment, then nothing could truly harm you. instead, if these people are taken by surprise, they die, just like everybody else.
Whether Jesus lived or not is not the issue. It's the fact that all of the religions have all these things in common, but people think their religion is the only right religion. Plus they forget that God is not outside them but he is within. Jesus Christ said this so read his teachings before you show any skepticism. Also meditation is the only way for our mind, body, and soul can be connected with God consciousness or an activated pineal gland to see reality in the Quantum level instead of
@wyte69allnyte on the contrary a lot of people believe there are "many paths to God" or "many voices of the truth" or some such. I'm not saying they're right either (than those who say "only my religion is the true religion). I'd suggest a book called "Christian Approaches to Other Faiths" which lays out the various different systems (pluralism, inclusivism and exclusivism, etc)
@wyte69allnyte again, why is the idea that "God is within" inherently more believable than that God is "without" (or both)? In fact Christianity has always taught that God is BOTH immanent AND transcendent. The idea that God can "only be reached my meditation" was not one of Jesus' teachings. You can agree or disagree, I say, just don't misrepresent
Bollocks! The historacy of Jesus can not be proven and never has! As for your second claim, does the early church fathers count? Perhaps if you studied comparitive mythology without the filter of apologists you might understand.
@danieljliversLXXXIX, the fact that you're in denial is the problem, not my facts. Studying "comparative mythology" effectively implies you've actually studied the myths, not just what some modern popular authors have said about them. With enough massaging and removal of context you can make anything sound like something else.
The fact remains that when you move outside the realm of vanity published amateurs and obsolete studies from a century ago, you'll find precious few scholars in any relevant field that give these theories the slightest bit of credence. Some folks find wonderful affirmation in the belief that Jesus was copied from pagan deities. Sorry to burst your fantasy bubble there...
Acharya S (Dorothy Murdock) doesn't rely solely on Sharpe. She relies upon a handful of outdated sources, and several non-scholarly sources (similarly outdated). I rarely hear her quote ANYONE from modernity, except to argue against them for whatever reason.
LMAO! Then you haven't ever read her work at all if you're going to try to convince those of us WHO'VE ACTUALLY READ HER WORK that she doesn't cite modern scholars who further substantiate her work. Egyptologist Erik Hornung, astronomer Edwin Krupp, biblical scholar Dr Robert Price on & on it goes - you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
the key is to be accurate when we make statements. the point is that "Peter Joseph" got the facts wrong. he presented his info AS IF all this stuff happened during the reign of Constantine the Great. Europe and North Africa were very different one thousand or more years later. So it's misleading to act as if the people in the 4th century (and prior) were responsible for it. basically if you're Christian, you have blood on your hands or are a slave to oppression, he's implying
It's always easy to say some one else is in denial. I can care less about the zietgiest movies. What the creator did was give a simplified version of the myths. If you've studied the prymid and coffin texts you'd find what you're looking for. I don't find affirmation. The only one in a bubble seems to be you.
@XSC3 Well, and it's true. I mean, pleeeez. Chrsstianity is a New-Age (then New) "secret society" with the simbol of the Fish (recall the Two Fishes, Era of Pisces, essential in all ancient churches) that was undistinguishable from THE CULT OF SERAPIS in Hadrian's time. SERAPIS = SERAPIS CHRISTÓS, the true "Christ".
@MandolinoFan Hadrian's time? Excuse me, but the Jesus cult (Christianity) goes back to the first century. The earliest documents supporting its existence are the letters of Paul (49-67 CE), followed by the Gospels (Mark: c.65-70; Matthew & Luke-Acts: c.70-80; John c.90-95). Josephus (non-Christian) writes about Jesus twice and his brother James in 93 (Antiquities of the Jews), Tacitus in 116 (Annals), Suetonius in 121 (Lives of the 12 Caesars), and the Talmud in 2nd century
I never said that the bible was defined at CN. "a complete and clear-cut canon.. from the beginning has no foundation in history.- Catholic encyclopedia. Their where thousands of different texts being used at the time. the church decided which where wrong and had to kill off the christians who disagreed. The bible *as you know it* (almost) wasnt decided on until the CT, in 1545. ther were many different councils and many different editings.
Wait, WHICH Christians precisely did the Church "kill off" for disagreeing with the canon of the Bible?
The council of trent was the first "ecumenical council" to define the entire Scripture. However there was a wide consensus in the west (east had a different consensus) on what constituted scripture. Martin Luther challenged that in the 16th cent, which prompted Trent to affirm it (after the fact). the NT canon was decided long before that (4th cent, not at Nicea)
"scholars do not argue (as Sharpe does) that the birth narratives in Luke and Matthew were forgeries"
Neither am i. they are mythology. forgery did happen(after) but thats another topic..
" I don't know of a single modern scholar who argues that the birth narratives were inspired..."
Thats because you dont know a single modern scholar. I already pointed out to you that the virgin birth of horus is common knowledge and told you where to look for the proof.
"GODloveSLAVERY, have you read the chapter in Samuel Sharpe's book"
yes, have you?
"I rest my case. "
and you lost. again, you cant take "it seems probable that these two poetical chapters in Luke may also be unhistorical, and be borrowed from the Egyptian accounts" out of context. if you think so, you really are completely delusional or completely dishonest.
Sharpe is outdated, he was writing in the late 1800's. It's 2009, we don't have to rely upon works that are over a century old (as "Acharya S" likes to do).
Christianity *as you know it today*, was created by the roman empire. THEY are the ones who decided which books(out of thousands) where right and wich wer wrong and destroyed the rest. Everything you think you know about jesus comes from them. The "christians" that were persecuted before the catholic church and latter BY the catholic church, arnt the same kind of "christian" as you are.
Since you dodged the question, I'll take it you haven't. I'll send you the link so you can read them. If you can find anywhere in them in which the canon of the bible is defined, violent suppression of heretics is proscribed, or that Christianity was established as the Roman religion, you get a cookie.
"The argument that it emerged from Alexandria is equally silly to the claim that it emerged from Rome as a political tool......So which is it?"
You have no understanding of christian history. They are not separate, incompatible arguments. now you have proven that you have not read acharyas work or anything revelant to it. You really need to read the arguments for yourself BEFORE trying to refute them.
"having different beliefs." That doesn't justify persecution, does it?"
First of all, youre going completely off topic now. Second, you must be delusional. Youre a christian arnt you? Your bible specifically orders you to persecute others for their beliefs. You worship a god who tortures people for not thinking how they are told to think. the pre-christian roman empire remained mostly tollerent of all religions except when they caused trouble, that all changed when christians took power.
Ok, now he is "wrong and out dated"? And how do you justify that claim? The virgin birth of horus is common knowledge among world leading egyptologists and is justified by a mountain of evidence, not just luxor. Go to dudekins isis=virgin vid and read the transcript in the info box. All sources are cited. the claim that horus was born of a virgin is undisputed fact.
He's wrong, because modern New Testament scholars do not argue (as Sharpe does) that the birth narratives in Luke and Matthew were forgeries later interpolated into the text (rather, they argue that Mark was written earlier than these two, and that the two narratives conflict). I don't know of a single modern scholar who argues that the birth narratives were inspired by Egyptian accounts of the birth of their kings.
@maxhiner699 "I would accept direct physical evidence that God exists, and nothing else.
The end. "
What if God is non-physical? In Christianity, God is Spirit, so about the only physical evidence one could bring forth would be relics of Jesus, the incarnation of that God. Oh well.
AGAIN, what part of "In this picture we have the Annunciation, the Conception, the Birth, and the Adoration, as described in the First and Second Chapters of Luke's Gospel.....it seems probable that these two poetical chapters in Luke may also be unhistorical, and be borrowed from the Egyptian accounts of the miraculous birth of their kings", Dont you understand? Seriously, can you even read? Or are you actually that delusional?
"I caught her quoting people out of context just the other day on her site. Sharpe doesn't.."
"In this picture we have the Annunciation, the Conception, the Birth, and the Adoration, as described in the First and Second Chapters of Luke's Gospel. ...it seems probable that these two poetical chapters in Luke may also be unhistorical, and be borrowed from the Egyptian accounts of the miraculous birth of their kings."- sharpe
Egyptologist Dr. Samuel Sharpe was certainly not misquoted.
I have read his work 'Egyptian Mythology and Egyptian Christianity', and on page 19, he most definitely asserts:
"In this picture we have the Annunciation, the Conception, the Birth, and the Adoration, as described in the First and Second Chapters of Luke's Gospel.'
You are being intellectually dishonest by denying such things. As I have stated, provide evidence for each of your contentions if you wish to be taken seriously.
Murdock "corrected" her quote after Carrier criticized it (see Carrier's article for proof). However she is still taking him out of context if she wants to continue her argument that this is the life of Horus and it inspired the life of Jesus.
Sharpe's work is still wrong and outdated, I'm just saying Murdock is dishonest in her use (rather abuse) of him.
@maxhiner699@maxhiner699 WOW, you outdid yourself. Dude, don't you know what MYTH is? Isis is THE GREAT VIRGIN, according to an inscription in Seti I's temple at Abydos.
Hmm, I think I know which video you estracted your "wisdom" from.
@MandolinoFan Isis was never called a "virgin." Dorothy Murdock tries to get around this by saying "virgin" means the same thing as "pure" (rather than "a person, usually a woman, who hasn't had sex"), and declares that therefore Isis was a "virgin mother." The closest you can get is the fact that later versions of her cult was combined with Artemis (a virgin goddess). So she becomes Isis-Artemis a virgin-mother. But in her mythology Isis was not a virgin and Horus was not a virgin birth
Neither modern New Testament scholars (even secular ones) nor modern Egyptologists agree that this is what is depicted, or that it somehow is tied to the Lukan accounts of the birth of Jesus.
@dudekin I believe the assertion of a misquote was that she inserted the phrase "Immaculate Conception" into the text, AS IF she were taking it from the same source. Of course, this would be completely wrong, and throw into question both her and the source for such an elementary mistake (the Immaculate Conception is a specifically Roman Catholic dogma referring to Mary, not Jesus, with no corollary in the Egyptian pre-Christian religions).
If you read the actual chapter in sharpe's book (not just the snippet that Murdock copied and pasted), you'll see he's not arguing for Murdock's position (ie: that the Luxor inscription depicts the miraculous life of Horus/Isis mirroring the life of Jesus/Mary). His work is outdated and contains errors, but using him as a source is not nearly as strong as she makes it out to be. At one point she even asserted it was the "Immaculate Conception" so she actually added to his words.
It would be sort of like if Marvel comics and DC merged, and they made a new character called Spiderman-Superman. Spiderman is human. Superman is Kryptonian. Spiderman-Superman is Kryptonian and human. He has spider powers and he can fly, x-ray vision, super strength, etc. Trouble is that he's a composite of two different characters. The original inspirations for that character have completely different attributes.
Jesus is traceable to a single human historical figure. Horus is not.
Sorry, but you can throw in whatever pagan gods you want, they won't make Jesus a non-historical figure or copycat myth (Serapis, Horus, Attis, Dionysius, Adonis, Krishna, the non-existent "Beddru of Japan," Gilgamesh, Baldur, Osiris, etc) Nor will you get any mileage out of Julius Caesar, Zoroaster, Apollonius, etc.
Somebody has been putting WAY too much stock in 19th century amateur sources and modern conspiracy theorists that cribbed from them.
The idea that creation of Christianity was a "political move" by "priestcraft" is a pretty strange claim if you know the actual history of Christianity. It sat around for at LEAST 280 years before "becoming political" never mind becoming the religion of the state (add another hundred years after that) and was often a persecuted sect at that.
Oh, I know that Christians were persecuted, indeed. Although the religion was certainly used for political purposes at a later date.
However, the extent to which they were persecuted seems to be over exaggerated, really. The Christians were almost unheard of in the first century. In the second century they became more fanatical, which would no doubt have angered the Pagans. We even have the Pagans accusing the Christians of atheism, as illustrated by one of Justin's apologies.
Even so, the creation of Christianity seems to be a concerted effort, stemming from Alexandria, between various loosely knit sects. Indeed, there were definitely those in opposition. No one is propagating the view that the whole Roman empire were in cahoots in an attempt to create a global state religion.
Although this was done at the Council of Nicaea, as I'm sure you're aware.
The "origin of Christianity" is from 1st century Palestine, from hellenized Jews who followed a man named Yeshua who was executed by the Romans for sedition. The argument that it emerged from Alexandria is equally silly to the claim that it emerged from Rome as a political tool. It took over three centuries for Christianity to gain political power. I'd be happy to continue this debate over Private Message, if you're up to it.
dudekin, I'll take that as a tacit admission that you were wrong about the origins of Christianity being a "political move." Nowhere did I assert that the number of Christians persecuted, or that the persecution proved it was a true religion. But it's silly to portray Christianity as a tool of the state when the state tried to actively DESTROY it at times. "anger" pagans? Yes, "anger" in the sense of "having different beliefs." That doesn't justify persecution, does it?
dorothy murdock isn't a relevant expert in this stuff. if the supposed parallels are lacking in the pre-Christian sources, why do people continue to find her work so convincing?
I still fail to understand why everyone screams 'D.M.Murdock' every time mythological parallels are discussed. This information comes from Egyptologists, and ancient commentaries.
Dorothy Murdock is so often cited because she's the primary one that is informing people's beliefs about this information. They watch Zeitgeist (who cites her books dozens of times), or they quote her without realizing it. She is the one misreading the Luxor inscriptions and citing outdated sources from the 19th century about parallels. if people want to cite the real sources rather than her mangling of them, that's cool.
The Luxor inscription interpretatuin isn't entirely incorrect. Although merely asserting it to be depicting the birth and adoration of Horus is a huge overgeneralisation - there's a lot more to it than that.
What part of it is correct? And that's a big stretch from saying you got part of it right to saying it inspired the New Testament (which is what conspiracy theorists like Murdock are saying). It's important we understand these things rather than reading into them what isn't there and then jumping to wild conclusions.
Firstly, there is no need to use the term 'conspiracy theorist' in a derogatory manner. How do you suppose God's like Serapis came into being? It was a political move by the priest craft. Does that make me a 'conspiracy theorist'. She's merely suggesting the same for Christianity, which is far from nonsensical.
As for the Luxor inscription - I'll post a link below. Some who have criticized (such as Carrier) translated the wrong text in doing so, there is no 'sex' in the inscription.
again, Murdock doesn't know what he's talking about. I caught her quoting people out of context just the other day on her site. Sharpe doesn't claim that Horus' birth mirrors that of Jesus on the Luxor inscription. I read her response to Carrier, and it was full of weak excuses. She gets zero respect from me, sorry
men, i thank God i have come to the maturity in faith in God that i could watch any program and still not be shaken, so what 12 , 12, what Horus. The Israelite prophets and the law had been prophesying the coming of Christ, the stars and the moon announced the birth of Christ such that 3 wise men were able to see it from the stars. I've had Muslims try to point this out to me about Horus, and Christmas being named after the suns rotation. What does this mean? Well If Christ is truly the Son...
childofconvenant 1 week ago
@childofconvenant .. of God then why wouldn't the Egyptians have had some evidences of his coming in their history. The fact that there is a Horus like that shows u that even the Egyptian were awaiting on a Messiah. Even in Yoruba culture they have Orisha, they there is Olodumare God but because of iniquity man cannot get to God except thru Orisha. Even the Yoruba's were waiting on Christ. The sun gets still for 3 day around the Christmas period, why not? Why wouldn't the sun recognize the Son..
childofconvenant 1 week ago
@childofconvenant of God. And if truly Jews were living in Egypt then surely they must have gotten some divine revelations. If anything this makes me to have more faith in the Lord. Throughout African religions one can see evidences of expectation of a spiritual deliverer. And here he has come and gone and is coming back again. Put ur house in Order O Israel. do not be like the slothful servant who was not watching. If those African priests were alive today many of them would have believed
childofconvenant 1 week ago
@childofconvenant you are totally wrong. No one was waiting for Christ. Christ is Man itself in these traditions. & In Yoruba The Orisha is the name of the Gods or the Ancestors Olodumare is The Creator. Orisha is not Christ. DOnt mislead people with that Christian mentality..
TheSonsOfLight 18 hours ago
@TheSonsOfLight whatever
childofconvenant 17 hours ago
and these videos I posted are nothing more than comperative mythology, in other words stories that sound similar, Why because they are all lies copies of each other.
TheVirgotube 1 week ago
Most want to be carried along through life, but the reality is that that is just a dream or wishfull thinking about miracle explanation #1 something hapens & no one can explain it they inmedietly think it's gods will,
I hope one day you will come to the realization tthat god is just a myth written into the jesus myth..Most might think after reading what I write I'm an atheist, well I'm not, not entirely. I'm more of a realist, You should be 1 too, stop dreaming WAKE UP.
TheVirgotube 1 week ago
Everyone wants to live in a perfect world living a perfect life, but look around you, life is not perfect.
TheVirgotube 1 week ago
The day will come when you(all those who comment & think you know more than tghe previews or later poster) understand & realize there was never any need for a god + you will understand the physics/basics of how a Universe could can and have been created, no matter how much or ho how simple scientists try to explain how Universes, planets, life could & have been created the Uneducated even the educated Christians who base their lives according to the bible. will never understand anything.
TheVirgotube 1 week ago
Why did the magi, ( adherants to zoraster/zarathusra) come and give myrrth, gold,and frankinsence to baby yeheshua(not jesus) and where did they get their knowledge from? Don't believe everything your told, do your own research, instead of being a "robot"! evolve or dissolve!
ausarmuntu7 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
And I'm jumping high and low,,,,,,,,,,
Every christian has to watch this....
Flying50000Ys 1 month ago
Comment removed
Flying50000Ys 1 month ago
After Jesus (proven existence) our original deal was off. Jesus made it possible for sinners to be redeemed. So be thankful you've been given the opportunity of salvation. You will never know what until you open your heart and allow yourself to actually FEEL it. Don't kid yourself, there are many things beyond our ability of reason. The end of the universe for example. Just like your dog is unable to comprehend calculus. Be humble, without humbleness and humility, you can not understand God.
Hollywood4Fun 1 month ago
@Hollywood4Fun i'm gonna copy this comment, i have a file of wonderful comments that i copy and use for arguments and debates and exhortation, this is one of them can a dog comprehend calculus (shoo i can't) we are like animals to the creator. A dog is no different and animal than the rat, or his cousin the wolf. But man "had mercy" and chose to exalt him above other animals.
childofconvenant 1 week ago
is that music Incubus?
luky05loser 1 month ago
All I can say is watch?v=KD40xi9KdqE&feature=channel_video_title
Roy5595 1 month ago
@rutha/ Are u serious? Ancient History is more evident than ANY religious BELIEF. It's FACTS in black & white. PROOF destroys ALL FAITH based OPINIONS. Peace
thenewkrurecords 1 month ago 6
Josephus was Black, not European. Just like Yoshua Ben Yosef (Christians call Jesus). NewsFlash! There is no Saviour, only 1 who made ALL (The Most High). No Trinity Hosea 13:4,
thenewkrurecords 1 month ago
He gives a lot in information, but his accent is very lispy, and he talks like he has a mouthful of food. Enunciate!!
tallkeithatl 2 months ago
to the ones who mark this as spam plain and simple there was no need for a god to create anything, so you are going to tell me god is involved in the 65 million galaxies there are(estimated) anyone who studies so much as you claim you have realy has nothing else better to do, when you die & that is inevitable what would have been the point of spending so much time and learning so much? to live a better life? Hope you are happy. + Aliens are real the writing or painting is on the walls/caves.
TheVirgotube 2 months ago
about the 12 Planets I was thinking of something else as I was typing , meant to say 12 hours
TheVirgotube 2 months ago
@TheVirgotube if you are with a woman for five years and you love her you will see the original twelve.and you wont forget that twelve because that twelve is true cult effect.the twelve times a woman has her period.now imagine the woman with a womb that can have a baby per month.imagine the dynamic changes which would have to take place naturally or just collect her eggs.;D
ohmphthschwrhu 1 month ago
the last supper is just a representation of the solar system Jesus=Sun, 12 Disciples=12 Planets, Christians need to get their heads out of the book(the bibble) & read/learn the facts, back in those days people use similies for everything, like I'm surprised you can't see the writing on the wall.
TheVirgotube 2 months ago in playlist RELIGION its BULLSHIT. RELIGION es MIERDA
@TheVirgotube 12 planets ???
arc175 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I have a degree in Ancient History and Archaeology and read hieroglyphs. This video is LYING to you, and no-one who knows anything about the ancient world would take it seriously for a moment.
If You want to believe this rubbish - OK, so be it. If however you are a real truth seeker, I suggest you go to the nowheretorun1984 channel and watch the videos of Chris White. He and others debunk this absurd nonsense, and offer some beautiful truth in exchange.
ruthamyallan1 3 months ago
@Franknarfable, you know what would be absolutely a hoot? If you and a Da Vinci code believer got together for a "debate.". Skill level aside, and he would have the better prima facia case, you could both moan and whine and holler claiming the other person is wrong. And you what, for once you'd both be right!
cmottes 3 months ago
St. Paul's letters document him meeting St. Peter and others. The very bones of the apostles such as St. Thomas exist. There is little if any question as to Jesus and the apostles existence. Why did Jesus choose 12? Probably the 12 tribes of Israel. Jesus fulfilled the Jewish law as seen in so many ways. But what if Jesus dying on the cross really did fulfill the very pagan vision of the sun on a cross? Indeed He foresaw His crucifixion. God wrote this true myth (story) !
cmottes 3 months ago
@cmottes - I doubt Jesus, the apostles and the disciples existed. Jesus dying on the cross is a representation of Julius Caesar. He was stabbed to death and then hung on a cross afterwards - the opposite of Jesus. Elements of the Jesus where taken from Moses and Joseph (amongst other things) and the 12 possibly come from Joseph's 12 brothers.
Franknarfable 3 months ago
@Franknarfable Ok, so you doubt. I believe Jesus and the apostles were real. Your belief of representation of Caesar is thoroughly false. Roman crucifixion was a widely employed form of capital punishment. And Julius Caesar's body simply lay for 3 hours and was carried home. He was not hung on a cross. You will not find it in the vast historical records, only your oddball websites. Elements of the gospels *parallel* and reference the old testament. Yes12 tribes, 12 brothers, 12 apostles
cmottes 3 months ago
@cmottes - So a wax effigy of Caesar was not raised up during his funeral? I think you'll find it was. I would like you to find me a scholar that denies this happened. FAIL.
Also, it is WIDELY known that a Roman soldier called Cassius Longinus plotted Caesars death. And another Roman soldier called Cassius Longinus pierced Jesus with a spear. A spear he received from his grandfather who was awarded it by Julius Caesar.
Please, don't deny that any of that is FACT. You'll make a fool of yourself
Franknarfable 3 months ago
@Franknarfable [1] It's not that I don't like you or have concern for you as a person, but I have little sympathy for anyone who isn't the least themselves concerned with the truth of what they are talking about. Listen, I'm going to respond since you addressed me. If you have any further actual questions let me know. But consider any further "did you know" followed by utter insincere rehash of a comic book already asked and answered. (continued in [2])
cmottes 3 months ago
@Franknarfable [2] Since neither you nor I said anything about the wax effigy raised at Caesar's funeral why disingenuously pretend we did? I think you'll find what you actually said before was Caesar "was stabbed to death then hung on a cross." As I said utterly false. Was a wax effigy made of him later? Yes. Was the effigy hung on a cross? No. Got it? Longinus? The Roman soldier is not named in the bible. Me deny facts? I haven't. Rather you please quit making up falsehoods.
cmottes 3 months ago
@cmottes - "Since neither you nor I said anything about the wax effigy raised at Caesar's funeral why disingenuously pretend we did?" - What does it matter? A representation of Caesar was raised up, arms outstretched.
"The Roman soldier is not named in the bible" - I never said he was. He is mentioned in Apocrypha. Does that not count as early Christian literature?
"Was the effigy hung on a cross? No" - So what was it then? A machane. Where his arms outstretched? Yes. The imagery is the SAME.
Franknarfable 3 months ago
@cmottes - Did you know that the ministry of Jesus is a representation of the conquests of Vespasian/Titus as they marched through Judea during the wars? I want you to show me how "knowledgeable people have shown it to be false and distorted".
The theory is, that Jesus Christianiity was part of Vespasians propaganda of peace after the turbulent civil wars and Roman-Jewish wars. Simon, Jesus, John, Mary etc are parodies of persons described in the Jewish War therefore NOT REAL.
Franknarfable 3 months ago
@Franknarfable [6] Did you know that the ministry of Jesus is real? And happened in Galilee and other real places? Did you know it was not Vespasian's military conquests? Did you know Jesus said those who live by the sword die by the sword? Did you know he has an awful understanding of scripture and if you read anything of his he takes a words in scriptures and claims they mean something else? The "theory" is false. The apostles, Jesus, Mary, etc are real. Carotta is parody.
cmottes 3 months ago
@cmottes - Titus begins his campaign at Galilee, his men fish the enemy from the water. He arrives at Gadara, the enemy described as wild beasts that flee into the water. In Jerusalem, a woman called Mary eats the flesh of her own son during passover. Three men crucified, one survives. Simon is killed and John is spared.
Jewish War - Josephus.
Events appearing in the same sequence as the NT. It's satire buddy, the ministry of Jesus is about as real as the adventures of spiderman.
Franknarfable 3 months ago
@Franknarfable "It's satire buddy, the ministry of Jesus is about as real as the adventures of spiderman." - As a liar, you're unimpressive. Please look up "satire" before misusing it. And if that's your truth, I pity you, my sad friend. To your nonsense - you say Titus crushes people to "fish disciples." A tale, not on passover, which revolted Romans became its religion? Josephus' 3 friends were unnamed. You have Titus as Pilate yet a missionary. The 2 thieves were not Simon and John.
cmottes 3 months ago
@Franknarfable Probably Rabbis were referring to spider man when they wrote "That liar and magician Jesus"...
Htogrom 2 months ago
@Franknarfable [7] I am sorry if I seem harsh. Really, if you are reading Carotta and find it entertaining, fantastic. It is like a really really bad version of Dan Brown. I can tell you every scholar and 99% of people who have even heard of Carotta not only know it is a joke, but can see the silliness of what he does. You do realize what he does, right? He takes a scripture passage and just says the words stand for something else. Carotta likely wrote it as a parody (a joke). Look it up.
cmottes 3 months ago
@Franknarfable ‘Render unto Caesar,’ declared Jesus, ‘the things that are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.’ Some free advice... the internet is also a great resource. Its a nice idea when you yourself come across a claim like Carotta's recent Caesar-Christ book, check it out ! Read a little about it. You'll find there are many good sources on the internet who can explain it and help you see why knowledgeable people have shown it to be false and distorted.
cmottes 3 months ago
@cmottes - Also, I am giving you some insights discovered by Carotta, I am not subscribing to his entire theory. These insights support Roman authorship of the New Testament. Yes crucifixion was widely employed which is why it's a CLEVER literary device. On the surface it seems like a run of the mill crucifixion but the initiated (or educated) can appreciate the different levels of meaning. Or do you think that doesn't happen in intelligently written literature? It does. All the time.
Franknarfable 3 months ago
@Franknarfable [3] If you buy into any of Carotta for real, I would be happy to answer your questions. Carotta is widely believed to have written a *parody.* The book isn't even meant to be taken seriously and guess what, almost no one did. It is literally a joke. It isn't even remotely close to the plausibility of Dan Brown. Carotta takes words and claims they mean something else. Did the Romans write the apocrypha too? All the copies? Did they found churches in Corinth and Ephesus?
cmottes 3 months ago
@cmottes - "Did the Romans write the apocrypha too? All the copies? Did they found churches in Corinth and Ephesus?" - Yes. If they wrote the NT then surely logic follows they'd have written everything else. I believe Carotta makes some interesting identifications, but I don't buy into his entire explanation. His identification of Joseph of Arimathea as a typological character based upon Joseph bar Mathis is another interesting identification.
Franknarfable 3 months ago
@Franknarfable [4] So the cult of Caesar faked the existence of St. Peter? St Paul too? John the Evangelist who was imprisoned on Patmos? St. Thmoas as a missionary in India? The Roman cult of Caesar was thoroughly versed in the old testament? They knew to parallel Elizabeth visiting Mary with King David finding the ark of the covenant? They knew to seamlessly integrate psalms, Genesis, Exodus? They disguised themselves as Jews, infiltrated the holy land and made countless converts?
cmottes 3 months ago
@cmottes - St Peter / Simon is based on the rebel Simon Bar Giora and John on the rebel leader John of Giscala. John 21 - Jesus predicts that Simon will be lead to his death, we later find out that he died in Rome, and he also predicts that John will be spared. That's exactly what happens to the rebel leaders. Simon also denies Titus three times just as Peter denies Jesus, etc.
Close friends of Vespasian/Titus where extremely well versed in the OT, see Philo and his brothers.
Franknarfable 3 months ago
@Franknarfable Oh, Simon Bar Giora, I see. So when Jesus who you believe is the Roman Caesar says he will build his church it is upon the Jewish rebel leader Bar Giora, even though the Romans then kill Bar Giora. Yet the Roman Vespasian/Titus who crushed Galilee 40 years after Jesus were actually then "fishing" out the disciples from Galilee including Bar Giora who Jesus, already crucified, appoints as the rock upon which His church will be built. Bar Giora resisted then fled Titus.
cmottes 3 months ago
@cmottes - "They disguised themselves as Jews, infiltrated the holy land and made countless converts?" - You think they need to disguise themselves as Jews to make people convert? The holy land was destroyed, they owned it, they had power, influence, resources and countless allies to assist conversions throughout the Empire. They could close places of worship, convert those places, install bishops, publish, distribute, etc, etc.
So yes, of course it was possible. If they wanted it done, it was
Franknarfable 3 months ago
@Franknarfable "You think they need to disguise themselves as Jews to make people convert?" If you understood or read any history (other than from on a Coratta website) or the gospels, you'd see why.
cmottes 3 months ago
@Franknarfable [5] They built hundreds of churches, attended synagogues, became missionaries to far off places? They debated with the Jews whether they should follow Mosaic law? They though Romans were thrown to the lions for believing in Christ? They died for their beliefs? Yes crucifixion was a widely employed form of capital punishment which is why it was REAL and not a literary device. Or do you think real things don't happen? They do. All the time.
cmottes 3 months ago
@cmottes - "Yes crucifixion was a widely employed form of capital punishment which is why it was REAL and not a literary device" - I'm not saying crucifixion wasn't real. Though if you where to represent Caesar then it's perfect, surely they could of killed him in numerous different ways. Hung from a tree, tied to a stake, beheaded, etc.
Josephus witnessed three men crucified and one survives. Perfect. Let's use that.
Franknarfable 3 months ago
YOU FORGOT SAINT SEIYA AND THE 12 GOLD SAINTS!!!! XD
Angelotube5000 3 months ago
FALLACY: Non Causa Pro Causa A comes before B. Therefore, A is the cause of B.
PrinceWalter 4 months ago
Why is it unlikely that a preacher in Galilee really did recruit 12 disciples? How do months or signs of the zodiac or 'star gods' get turned into fishermen and tax collectors- flawed men who doubt and betray? The more mundane interpretation makes more sense to me. How did Jesus' 12 disciples 'aid him in his journey across the sky'? (Ra is towed, not Horus!) The Jesus/Horus theory is more far fetched and takes more faith to believe than orthodox Christian theology does, and I'm an atheist!
rahotep101 4 months ago
@rahotep101 you should look into all the similarities , instead of basing it off of that one difference, silly.
jumppack1 2 weeks ago
@notjam3 Back peddles? I'm quite sure that her claims are verified in the books of scholars, which she also uses in her book, Christ in Egypt.
martynblackburn1977 4 months ago
@notjam3 The Egyptians never worshipped the sun. It was based upon a misunderstanding on the part of the Greeks, and later upon the part of modern Egyptologists.
martynblackburn1977 4 months ago
@notjam3 The Maiden Queen was a virgin in the representation of her form as Nekbet, for example. And so too with Isis and Hathor. Queen Mut was impregnated by the spirit Kneph whilst Thoth recorded the edict of the birth of the divine son. Pretty much a Immucalato Conceptio.
martynblackburn1977 4 months ago
What about Joseph and his 12 brothers? Or Moses and his floating down the Nile to escape the unnamed Pharaoh?
The story of Jesus came from the Torah. Surely.
Franknarfable 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Harold Camping was RIGHT about May 21, click on my channel to see...
youneekk 5 months ago
@notjam3 funny... i never see jesus telling people to worship him or god either... hmmmm interesting
blink180heights 5 months ago
@notjam3 We don't care about Jordan Maxwell. Acharya S has addressed the sun/son issue at her FAQ's:
freethoughtnation. com /forums/viewtopic. php?p=4835#p4835
Hercules2345 5 months ago
@notjam3 LOL, that's actually a lie - she does the EXACT OPPOSITE. Read the New ZEITGEIST Part 1 Sourcebook (2010)
stellarhousepublishing. com /zeitgeistsourcebook. pdf
She substantiates all the claims with the most highly respected and credentialed scholars as explained in the preface. You have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about.
Hercules2345 5 months ago
@notjam3 LOL, that crap has already been addressed:
Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes concerning 'Zeitgeist, Part 1'
truthbeknown. com /chrisforbeszeitgeist. html
The New ZEITGEIST Part 1 Sourcebook (2010)
stellarhousepublishing. com /zeitgeistsourcebook. pdf
Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence
freethoughtnation. com /forums/viewtopic. php?f=19&t=2997
Hercules2345 5 months ago 3
One man's truth is another's lie at the end of the day. And does your book not teach you tolerance or to love thy neighbour or fellow man. And if the Vatican is so rich then why does the church always ask for offerings. Did Jesus not tell the rich man to sell his belongings and give the money to the poor? Im sorry I went to a Catholic school and tried to believe but unfortunately my mind is free. The holy books are just books. Self contradicting ill educated drivel. Good stories though.
BOALL 5 months ago
To be fair to all who say this is this and that is that all we have are ancient texts most of which could have been miss translated. Also to those who believe and disregard any view from people who actually think and use their so called GOD GIVEN MINDS you believe in fairy tales written in the day and age before we knew the world was a giant sphere, before we knew the earth circled the sun. Basically before humans actually studied their surroundings and researched and discovered.
BOALL 5 months ago
THIS IS A DEVIL VIDEO DEVIL DEVVIL DEVIL!! aGHHE!! MADE BY A DEVIL MONSTER
warpowers1861 6 months ago
Sathya Sai Baba today has followers from 6 million up to nearly 100 million. Jesus only had 12 when he was alive as far as I am aware. Sathya Sai Baba has been allegedly witnessed to perform many of the same miracles as Jesus with the exception of rising from the dead. Jesus and Baba are just men whom dimwitted, gullible, superstitious, delusional people followed and in both cases still do.
scotttebben 7 months ago
@scotttebben Sai baba was a fraud and jesus never existed.
ferry7777 6 months ago
Soulfly V \m/
yllierutube 7 months ago in playlist jesus debunked
This has been flagged as spam show
When Christ asks you at judgment, "Who do you say I am?" Make sure you give the pre-Novus Ordo Council answer, "God." If you give God the common Masonic answer out of the Gnostic bible, "you are the son of a burning bush fire (the lord)", you will quickly learn what this world was about and you will have an eternity to pay for it. As the Traditional Catholic Church breathes its last breath, the New Order replaces it. Will you have the knowledge to stand?
FATIMAMOVEMENT d o t c o m
fatimamovement 7 months ago
Horus & Jesus never be the same person(s). To remain non-confused, the letters in the name Jesus be spelled Jesus and therefore never Horus. Jesus Christ's own disciplines had also known that the man named Horus had been on the earth before the man named Moses had been on the earth whereas Moses and the remaining disciples had always and also known that we're to gladly worship the one who's english letter put together spell: God
dannyclark1973 9 months ago
@dannyclark1973 Such nonsense and terrible grammar
ToutCQJM 6 months ago
@dannyclark1973 I think virtually all historians agree that Moses never existed.
winterstellar 6 months ago
@bamaceo59
I'm not here to convert anyone, just to show that Christ-mythers can't find the evidence to back up their ridiculous claims. You'd think that if they had it, they'd be parading it for the world to see. Instead, they just repeat the claims, hoping that people will be gullible enough to believe them, and too lazy to do any fact-checking.
kingdavid246 10 months ago
who was luke, mathew and the other 2 ?
pascalirinel 11 months ago
great video, only the music is too loud and doesn't fit the theme
adapaevolved 1 year ago
Revelation 12 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered" this is obviously virgo in the pre dawn standing above the setting moon about to give birth to the rising sun. the twelve stars are twelve zodiac signs I find it amusing that alot of fundimentalists love the DayStar (SUN) net work worship on sundays
sagitarian000028 1 year ago
Comment removed
sagitarian000028 1 year ago
UMMM! Well I figured this was BS and I was right as I thought. So I am stopping at the quote that Horus had 12 disciples and or help mates. Wrong and something this simple for you to be wrong on shows you know nothing about this subject.
myoldshorts 1 year ago
@myoldshorts Disprove the evidence presented then? The Book of Amduat etc all clearly portray Horus with 12 helpers.
dudekin 1 year ago
@dudekin
I take it you've never actually read the Book of Amduat. It mentions nothing about Horus having 12 helpers. You can read the Budge translation at sacred-texts(dot)com
kingdavid246 1 year ago
@kingdavid246 Are you just going to ignore the images? Ok.
dudekin 1 year ago
@dudekin
Didn't you watch the video? It specifically says that they're helpers of Ra, not Horus. They're just standing in front of Horus.
kingdavid246 1 year ago
@kingdavid246 Anyone with any knowledge of Egyptology will understand the irrelevance of that statement.
Either way, I'm done with debating these topics. It seems futile bothering, even when the evidence is presented - it's denied. It's a waste of time. Have fun trying to impose your opinion on the world.
dudekin 1 year ago
@dudekin
"I'm done with debating these topics"
I can't blame you. That's what Christ-mythers usually do when they meet someone who actually knows the mythology.
kingdavid246 1 year ago
@kingdavid246 Excuse me? I have no videos on my channel proclaiming Jesus to be entirely mythical.
It is undeniable, many characteristics that Jesus possessed were possessed by numerous Gods before him.
dudekin 1 year ago
@dudekin
"many characteristics that Jesus possessed were possessed by numerous Gods before him."
Some, sure. Just like you can find a lot of parallels between Abe Lincoln and JFK, or between any two things, if you try hard enough. But I've researched all of the parallel claims people have been spouting, and found out that about 90% of them are without support. And if the other 10% are significant, then why did people bother to fabricate the other 90?
kingdavid246 1 year ago
@dudekin Are you referring to the twelve hours of the night in which Ra, not Horus, went into the under world or are you referring to the twelve disciples of Horus. I'm confused because the only twelve disciples in any of these ancient stories come from the mystery religions misinterpretations written far after Jesus crucifixion to fit their beliefs. By the way who translated these Egyptian carvings and is even what they say true about them? Also the old testament has 12 saints.
myoldshorts 1 year ago
@myoldshorts
"By the way who translated these Egyptian carvings and is even what they say true about them?"
Lol yeah egyptologists love spending their lives mis-translating heiroglyphs to confuse the world....that makes a lot of sense.
karlkarlkarl1234 1 year ago
@dudekin do you have any links i can go to
sagitarian000028 1 year ago
It would be great if the Narration would be slower and if you be more clear in your presentation it is a very interesting subject.
kassem747 1 year ago
Unfortunately for your theory, the Augustan History (3rd century?) is notoriously unreliable (this is the source of the story about the "Christians" worshiping Serapis alongside Christ; though I'm not sure what that proves, since there's no mention of Serapis in the 1st century material; "Christ" is a Jewish term).
XSC3 1 year ago
@XSC3 What is completely unreliable is Eusebius's "History" of the Christian Church. Now I see you're one of those incorrigible literalists, it's pointless talking you to reason.
"Christ" is a Greek translation from a "Jewish" (in fact, Egyptian-borrowed) concept, MESSIAH = MESSEH in ancient Egyptian. Baptism, "confirmation", Extremaunctio, are all Egyptian "Sacraments".
MandolinoFan 1 year ago
He who asserts must prove. If you want to say the Luxor inscription asserts the virgin birth of Horus (or any god for that matter), please provide the modern Egyptologist who asserts this. If it's such a well attested fact, this should be an easy task. Sharpe died 129 years ago. Egyptology has advanced considerably since then.
XSC3 1 year ago
@XSC3 "Egiptology has advanced considerably since then". Go, for instance, to J. Allen.
What you are saying is rubbish. It is completely clear that Jesus is based on Horus, or rather, on Serapis and Horus. See Claudine Carcenac-Pujol's PhD Thesis in Egyptology at Strasbourg University.
MandolinoFan 1 year ago
See that's the thing, the historicity of Jesus is a completely separate claim from whether God exists and whether it's the Christian deity or someone else. The fact is that the "Horus inspired Jesus" theory is completely debunked, not supported by the ancient evidence. It was proposed by some outdated 19th century writers who didn't have access to the same evidence we have today. It's promoted by conspiracy theories and people desperate to dismiss Jesus as irrelevant.
XSC3 1 year ago
google Doe's Account, its mindblowing.
travismalk 1 year ago
I disagree, meditation is NOT the only way to "connect with God." People have connected with God in other ways besides meditation for thousands of years. I'm not saying meditation is worthless, but if you're going to say it's the "only way to connect with God" (if you believe such a thing is possible) you're way off, sorry.
XSC3 2 years ago
I've yet to see convincing evidence that Horus was EVER said to have "twelve disciples" prior to the emergence of the first Christian texts which say that about Jesus. ditto for events like the "baptism by a prophet" or "crucifixion and burial" or "resurrection from the dead after three days," or heck, even the birth from a virgin woman. After Christianity becomes popular? Sure, they can say whatever they want. but to show a positive link, you at least need an EARLIER verified claim
XSC3 2 years ago
the material level. The material world is a false illusion. Material things are all energy manifested into solid objects by our brain or the quantum world. So meditate and let your Ego go for the ego is an illusion or mask of the self and you will never reach your full potential of love and peace if you don't remove it....
wyte69allnyte 2 years ago
@wyte69allnyte the only problem with that idea is that buddhist monks and hindu mystics (and new age gurus) get killed all the time in accidents or murders. clearly if it were merely a matter of enlightenment, then nothing could truly harm you. instead, if these people are taken by surprise, they die, just like everybody else.
XSC3 2 years ago
Whether Jesus lived or not is not the issue. It's the fact that all of the religions have all these things in common, but people think their religion is the only right religion. Plus they forget that God is not outside them but he is within. Jesus Christ said this so read his teachings before you show any skepticism. Also meditation is the only way for our mind, body, and soul can be connected with God consciousness or an activated pineal gland to see reality in the Quantum level instead of
wyte69allnyte 2 years ago 2
@wyte69allnyte on the contrary a lot of people believe there are "many paths to God" or "many voices of the truth" or some such. I'm not saying they're right either (than those who say "only my religion is the true religion). I'd suggest a book called "Christian Approaches to Other Faiths" which lays out the various different systems (pluralism, inclusivism and exclusivism, etc)
XSC3 2 years ago
@wyte69allnyte again, why is the idea that "God is within" inherently more believable than that God is "without" (or both)? In fact Christianity has always taught that God is BOTH immanent AND transcendent. The idea that God can "only be reached my meditation" was not one of Jesus' teachings. You can agree or disagree, I say, just don't misrepresent
XSC3 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
well the existence of Jesus as a historical figure has been proven, and the "pagan copycat theory" has not.
How'se that for being a grown up? Tell me another one.
XSC3 2 years ago
Bollocks! The historacy of Jesus can not be proven and never has! As for your second claim, does the early church fathers count? Perhaps if you studied comparitive mythology without the filter of apologists you might understand.
danieljliversLXXXIX 2 years ago
@danieljliversLXXXIX, the fact that you're in denial is the problem, not my facts. Studying "comparative mythology" effectively implies you've actually studied the myths, not just what some modern popular authors have said about them. With enough massaging and removal of context you can make anything sound like something else.
XSC3 2 years ago
The fact remains that when you move outside the realm of vanity published amateurs and obsolete studies from a century ago, you'll find precious few scholars in any relevant field that give these theories the slightest bit of credence. Some folks find wonderful affirmation in the belief that Jesus was copied from pagan deities. Sorry to burst your fantasy bubble there...
XSC3 2 years ago
I believe the earth is spherical, as do most others. that's a (more than) 2,000 year old belief.
XSC3 2 years ago
Acharya S (Dorothy Murdock) doesn't rely solely on Sharpe. She relies upon a handful of outdated sources, and several non-scholarly sources (similarly outdated). I rarely hear her quote ANYONE from modernity, except to argue against them for whatever reason.
XSC3 2 years ago
LMAO! Then you haven't ever read her work at all if you're going to try to convince those of us WHO'VE ACTUALLY READ HER WORK that she doesn't cite modern scholars who further substantiate her work. Egyptologist Erik Hornung, astronomer Edwin Krupp, biblical scholar Dr Robert Price on & on it goes - you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Hercules2345 2 years ago
"violent suppression of heretics is proscribed"
i never said that was in the CN. But it was done. Do you want the records?
"or that Christianity was established as the Roman religion"
Again, I never said that happened in CN. "you get a cookie"
if you can argue logically without using strawmen, then ill give you a box of cookies.
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago
the key is to be accurate when we make statements. the point is that "Peter Joseph" got the facts wrong. he presented his info AS IF all this stuff happened during the reign of Constantine the Great. Europe and North Africa were very different one thousand or more years later. So it's misleading to act as if the people in the 4th century (and prior) were responsible for it. basically if you're Christian, you have blood on your hands or are a slave to oppression, he's implying
XSC3 2 years ago
It's always easy to say some one else is in denial. I can care less about the zietgiest movies. What the creator did was give a simplified version of the myths. If you've studied the prymid and coffin texts you'd find what you're looking for. I don't find affirmation. The only one in a bubble seems to be you.
danieljliversLXXXIX 2 years ago
@XSC3 Well, and it's true. I mean, pleeeez. Chrsstianity is a New-Age (then New) "secret society" with the simbol of the Fish (recall the Two Fishes, Era of Pisces, essential in all ancient churches) that was undistinguishable from THE CULT OF SERAPIS in Hadrian's time. SERAPIS = SERAPIS CHRISTÓS, the true "Christ".
MandolinoFan 1 year ago
@MandolinoFan Hadrian's time? Excuse me, but the Jesus cult (Christianity) goes back to the first century. The earliest documents supporting its existence are the letters of Paul (49-67 CE), followed by the Gospels (Mark: c.65-70; Matthew & Luke-Acts: c.70-80; John c.90-95). Josephus (non-Christian) writes about Jesus twice and his brother James in 93 (Antiquities of the Jews), Tacitus in 116 (Annals), Suetonius in 121 (Lives of the 12 Caesars), and the Talmud in 2nd century
XSC3 1 year ago
"canon of the bible is defined"
I never said that the bible was defined at CN. "a complete and clear-cut canon.. from the beginning has no foundation in history.- Catholic encyclopedia. Their where thousands of different texts being used at the time. the church decided which where wrong and had to kill off the christians who disagreed. The bible *as you know it* (almost) wasnt decided on until the CT, in 1545. ther were many different councils and many different editings.
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago
Wait, WHICH Christians precisely did the Church "kill off" for disagreeing with the canon of the Bible?
The council of trent was the first "ecumenical council" to define the entire Scripture. However there was a wide consensus in the west (east had a different consensus) on what constituted scripture. Martin Luther challenged that in the 16th cent, which prompted Trent to affirm it (after the fact). the NT canon was decided long before that (4th cent, not at Nicea)
XSC3 2 years ago
"Sharpe is outdated, he was writing in the late 1800's. It's 2009, we don't have to rely upon works that are over a century old"
Uuh, no. knowledge of anything, whether its science or history, is never "outdated" until it is proven wrong.
" (as "Acharya S" likes to do). "
Wrong. You are lying again. She in no way reys on sharpe.
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago
"scholars do not argue (as Sharpe does) that the birth narratives in Luke and Matthew were forgeries"
Neither am i. they are mythology. forgery did happen(after) but thats another topic..
" I don't know of a single modern scholar who argues that the birth narratives were inspired..."
Thats because you dont know a single modern scholar. I already pointed out to you that the virgin birth of horus is common knowledge and told you where to look for the proof.
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"GODloveSLAVERY, have you read the chapter in Samuel Sharpe's book"
yes, have you?
"I rest my case. "
and you lost. again, you cant take "it seems probable that these two poetical chapters in Luke may also be unhistorical, and be borrowed from the Egyptian accounts" out of context. if you think so, you really are completely delusional or completely dishonest.
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago
Sharpe is outdated, he was writing in the late 1800's. It's 2009, we don't have to rely upon works that are over a century old (as "Acharya S" likes to do).
XSC3 2 years ago
"..Have you read the decisions of Nicea?"
Christianity *as you know it today*, was created by the roman empire. THEY are the ones who decided which books(out of thousands) where right and wich wer wrong and destroyed the rest. Everything you think you know about jesus comes from them. The "christians" that were persecuted before the catholic church and latter BY the catholic church, arnt the same kind of "christian" as you are.
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago
""..Have you read the decisions of Nicea?""
Since you dodged the question, I'll take it you haven't. I'll send you the link so you can read them. If you can find anywhere in them in which the canon of the bible is defined, violent suppression of heretics is proscribed, or that Christianity was established as the Roman religion, you get a cookie.
XSC3 2 years ago
Comment removed
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago
"The argument that it emerged from Alexandria is equally silly to the claim that it emerged from Rome as a political tool......So which is it?"
You have no understanding of christian history. They are not separate, incompatible arguments. now you have proven that you have not read acharyas work or anything revelant to it. You really need to read the arguments for yourself BEFORE trying to refute them.
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago
"having different beliefs." That doesn't justify persecution, does it?"
First of all, youre going completely off topic now. Second, you must be delusional. Youre a christian arnt you? Your bible specifically orders you to persecute others for their beliefs. You worship a god who tortures people for not thinking how they are told to think. the pre-christian roman empire remained mostly tollerent of all religions except when they caused trouble, that all changed when christians took power.
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago
"Sharpe's work is still wrong and outdated"
Ok, now he is "wrong and out dated"? And how do you justify that claim? The virgin birth of horus is common knowledge among world leading egyptologists and is justified by a mountain of evidence, not just luxor. Go to dudekins isis=virgin vid and read the transcript in the info box. All sources are cited. the claim that horus was born of a virgin is undisputed fact.
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago
He's wrong, because modern New Testament scholars do not argue (as Sharpe does) that the birth narratives in Luke and Matthew were forgeries later interpolated into the text (rather, they argue that Mark was written earlier than these two, and that the two narratives conflict). I don't know of a single modern scholar who argues that the birth narratives were inspired by Egyptian accounts of the birth of their kings.
XSC3 2 years ago
@XSC3
"What would you accept as evidence for God".
I would accept direct physical evidence that God exists, and nothing else.
The end.
maxhiner699 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@maxhiner699 "I would accept direct physical evidence that God exists, and nothing else.
The end. "
What if God is non-physical? In Christianity, God is Spirit, so about the only physical evidence one could bring forth would be relics of Jesus, the incarnation of that God. Oh well.
XSC3 1 year ago
"No one is propagating the view that the whole Roman empire were in cahoots in an attempt to create a global state religion.
Although this was done at the Council of Nicaea, as I'm sure you're aware. "
So which is it? Have you read the decisions of Nicea?
XSC3 2 years ago
"he's not arguing for Murdock's position"
AGAIN, what part of "In this picture we have the Annunciation, the Conception, the Birth, and the Adoration, as described in the First and Second Chapters of Luke's Gospel.....it seems probable that these two poetical chapters in Luke may also be unhistorical, and be borrowed from the Egyptian accounts of the miraculous birth of their kings", Dont you understand? Seriously, can you even read? Or are you actually that delusional?
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago
GODloveSLAVERY, have you read the chapter in Samuel Sharpe's book, or only the (out-of-context) quote given by Murdock on her website?
I rest my case.
XSC3 2 years ago
"I caught her quoting people out of context just the other day on her site. Sharpe doesn't.."
"In this picture we have the Annunciation, the Conception, the Birth, and the Adoration, as described in the First and Second Chapters of Luke's Gospel. ...it seems probable that these two poetical chapters in Luke may also be unhistorical, and be borrowed from the Egyptian accounts of the miraculous birth of their kings."- sharpe
What part of that dont you understand?
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago
"I read her response to Carrier, and it was full of weak excuses."
Why do I get the feeling that you are lying? Why dont you list the excuses and then explain why they are weak?
GODlovesSLAVERY 2 years ago 2
Egyptologist Dr. Samuel Sharpe was certainly not misquoted.
I have read his work 'Egyptian Mythology and Egyptian Christianity', and on page 19, he most definitely asserts:
"In this picture we have the Annunciation, the Conception, the Birth, and the Adoration, as described in the First and Second Chapters of Luke's Gospel.'
You are being intellectually dishonest by denying such things. As I have stated, provide evidence for each of your contentions if you wish to be taken seriously.
dudekin 2 years ago
Murdock "corrected" her quote after Carrier criticized it (see Carrier's article for proof). However she is still taking him out of context if she wants to continue her argument that this is the life of Horus and it inspired the life of Jesus.
Sharpe's work is still wrong and outdated, I'm just saying Murdock is dishonest in her use (rather abuse) of him.
XSC3 2 years ago
Comment removed
maxhiner699 1 year ago
@maxhiner699 @maxhiner699 WOW, you outdid yourself. Dude, don't you know what MYTH is? Isis is THE GREAT VIRGIN, according to an inscription in Seti I's temple at Abydos.
Hmm, I think I know which video you estracted your "wisdom" from.
Congratulations, you made a fool of yourself
MandolinoFan 1 year ago
@MandolinoFan
"Congradulations, you made a fool of yourself".
Wow, pathetic...i was only joking around you fucktard.
If you really want me to be serious, I could show you dozens of ancient pictures proving there are parallels between Horus and Jesus.
Just ask me to PM them to you.
maxhiner699 1 year ago
@MandolinoFan Isis was never called a "virgin." Dorothy Murdock tries to get around this by saying "virgin" means the same thing as "pure" (rather than "a person, usually a woman, who hasn't had sex"), and declares that therefore Isis was a "virgin mother." The closest you can get is the fact that later versions of her cult was combined with Artemis (a virgin goddess). So she becomes Isis-Artemis a virgin-mother. But in her mythology Isis was not a virgin and Horus was not a virgin birth
XSC3 1 year ago
Comment removed
maxhiner699 1 year ago
@dudekin Samuel Sharpe's quote (out of context or not) is mistaken. Show any modern Egyptologists who agree with this assessment.
XSC3 1 year ago
@dudekin HE IS WRONG.
Neither modern New Testament scholars (even secular ones) nor modern Egyptologists agree that this is what is depicted, or that it somehow is tied to the Lukan accounts of the birth of Jesus.
XSC3 1 year ago
@dudekin I believe the assertion of a misquote was that she inserted the phrase "Immaculate Conception" into the text, AS IF she were taking it from the same source. Of course, this would be completely wrong, and throw into question both her and the source for such an elementary mistake (the Immaculate Conception is a specifically Roman Catholic dogma referring to Mary, not Jesus, with no corollary in the Egyptian pre-Christian religions).
XSC3 1 year ago
If you read the actual chapter in sharpe's book (not just the snippet that Murdock copied and pasted), you'll see he's not arguing for Murdock's position (ie: that the Luxor inscription depicts the miraculous life of Horus/Isis mirroring the life of Jesus/Mary). His work is outdated and contains errors, but using him as a source is not nearly as strong as she makes it out to be. At one point she even asserted it was the "Immaculate Conception" so she actually added to his words.
XSC3 2 years ago
It would be sort of like if Marvel comics and DC merged, and they made a new character called Spiderman-Superman. Spiderman is human. Superman is Kryptonian. Spiderman-Superman is Kryptonian and human. He has spider powers and he can fly, x-ray vision, super strength, etc. Trouble is that he's a composite of two different characters. The original inspirations for that character have completely different attributes.
Jesus is traceable to a single human historical figure. Horus is not.
XSC3 1 year ago
Sorry, but you can throw in whatever pagan gods you want, they won't make Jesus a non-historical figure or copycat myth (Serapis, Horus, Attis, Dionysius, Adonis, Krishna, the non-existent "Beddru of Japan," Gilgamesh, Baldur, Osiris, etc) Nor will you get any mileage out of Julius Caesar, Zoroaster, Apollonius, etc.
Somebody has been putting WAY too much stock in 19th century amateur sources and modern conspiracy theorists that cribbed from them.
XSC3 1 year ago
The idea that creation of Christianity was a "political move" by "priestcraft" is a pretty strange claim if you know the actual history of Christianity. It sat around for at LEAST 280 years before "becoming political" never mind becoming the religion of the state (add another hundred years after that) and was often a persecuted sect at that.
XSC3 2 years ago
Oh, I know that Christians were persecuted, indeed. Although the religion was certainly used for political purposes at a later date.
However, the extent to which they were persecuted seems to be over exaggerated, really. The Christians were almost unheard of in the first century. In the second century they became more fanatical, which would no doubt have angered the Pagans. We even have the Pagans accusing the Christians of atheism, as illustrated by one of Justin's apologies.
dudekin 2 years ago
Even so, the creation of Christianity seems to be a concerted effort, stemming from Alexandria, between various loosely knit sects. Indeed, there were definitely those in opposition. No one is propagating the view that the whole Roman empire were in cahoots in an attempt to create a global state religion.
Although this was done at the Council of Nicaea, as I'm sure you're aware.
dudekin 2 years ago
The "origin of Christianity" is from 1st century Palestine, from hellenized Jews who followed a man named Yeshua who was executed by the Romans for sedition. The argument that it emerged from Alexandria is equally silly to the claim that it emerged from Rome as a political tool. It took over three centuries for Christianity to gain political power. I'd be happy to continue this debate over Private Message, if you're up to it.
XSC3 2 years ago
dudekin, I'll take that as a tacit admission that you were wrong about the origins of Christianity being a "political move." Nowhere did I assert that the number of Christians persecuted, or that the persecution proved it was a true religion. But it's silly to portray Christianity as a tool of the state when the state tried to actively DESTROY it at times. "anger" pagans? Yes, "anger" in the sense of "having different beliefs." That doesn't justify persecution, does it?
XSC3 2 years ago
dorothy murdock isn't a relevant expert in this stuff. if the supposed parallels are lacking in the pre-Christian sources, why do people continue to find her work so convincing?
XSC3 2 years ago
Because the supposed parallels aren't lacking.
I still fail to understand why everyone screams 'D.M.Murdock' every time mythological parallels are discussed. This information comes from Egyptologists, and ancient commentaries.
dudekin 2 years ago
Dorothy Murdock is so often cited because she's the primary one that is informing people's beliefs about this information. They watch Zeitgeist (who cites her books dozens of times), or they quote her without realizing it. She is the one misreading the Luxor inscriptions and citing outdated sources from the 19th century about parallels. if people want to cite the real sources rather than her mangling of them, that's cool.
XSC3 2 years ago
The Luxor inscription interpretatuin isn't entirely incorrect. Although merely asserting it to be depicting the birth and adoration of Horus is a huge overgeneralisation - there's a lot more to it than that.
dudekin 2 years ago
What part of it is correct? And that's a big stretch from saying you got part of it right to saying it inspired the New Testament (which is what conspiracy theorists like Murdock are saying). It's important we understand these things rather than reading into them what isn't there and then jumping to wild conclusions.
XSC3 2 years ago
Firstly, there is no need to use the term 'conspiracy theorist' in a derogatory manner. How do you suppose God's like Serapis came into being? It was a political move by the priest craft. Does that make me a 'conspiracy theorist'. She's merely suggesting the same for Christianity, which is far from nonsensical.
As for the Luxor inscription - I'll post a link below. Some who have criticized (such as Carrier) translated the wrong text in doing so, there is no 'sex' in the inscription.
dudekin 2 years ago
stellarhousepublishing(.)com/luxor(.)html
That should clear things up.
Please read all of it before posting further. If you have any questions afterwards - I'd be happy to answer them.
dudekin 2 years ago
again, Murdock doesn't know what he's talking about. I caught her quoting people out of context just the other day on her site. Sharpe doesn't claim that Horus' birth mirrors that of Jesus on the Luxor inscription. I read her response to Carrier, and it was full of weak excuses. She gets zero respect from me, sorry