They have to have a person sit between them to keep them apart, wow, there grown ass men, they should know how to behave themselves. Epstien is a douche, disrespection Schiff to start thee thing off telling him "You can speak where ever you wanna." Douchebag...
Say what you will about Epstien but in the debate he's right. We have lower inflation today in the 2000s let alone the 70s let alone Zimbabwe-style hyperinflation.
Literally no amount of evidence will ever convince Austrians otherwise.
@AndroidPolitician This may be true, but where on a path for a currency collapse & hyperinflation on a much bigger scale. Financial markets will collapse, there will to runs on stores & banks. Business will uproot, unemployment will skyrocket, savings will be disintegrated, GDP decline will be 10-20+ percents.
@AndroidPolitician High Unemployment level's don't create high inflation... Unemployment has nothing to do with inflation, Inflation is mainly in relation with monetary policy. Check out the value of the dollar from 1913-2012, The FED has devalued purchasing power so significantly the dollar has lost 96% of it's value.
The dollar will lose the residual trust that the world has had in it for a decades, and when it does, it will be even worse than 1929.
Inflation is done through supply and demand, and "devaluing" is inherent since the money supply grows as an economy grows. It would impractical to have an 1800s money supply today.
@AndroidPolitician no need to go to an 1800's money supply. What you need to do is go back to the model that Lincoln had. You need to understand the reason he was killed. He was killed because he began making the "Greenback" to fund the Civil War. Prior to this money was extremely scarce.
The problem is that in 1913 we handed over the monetary authority to a profiteering group. We need to take back the power to coin money & regulate the value there of. All of our money is now issued at debt.
Lincoln was killed because of a crazy confederate, the fact is if we went to "Lincoln's Model" it would create a super massive depression because of the reduction in useable funds.
To be sustainable the supply would have to be like 0.000001 oz gold per dollar but that's obviously impractical.
@AndroidPolitician You have no knowledge of monetary history. The Lincoln model had nothing to do with gold, well, correction, at the time, money supply was scarce & they needed a way to fund the Civil War. Thus, the greenback was born, a debt free, government issued currency, backed by nothing except the good faith in credit of the united states, money then became plentiful & economy boomed, This debt free people controlled currency was a threat to the international bankers
That's basically what we have now, I don't know if you realize this but the Federal Reserve doesn't create the money supply, it's local banks that do that and that loan it on interest, the federal reserve exists to regulate this process and encourage banks to either lend more or less.
@AndroidPolitician That's not what we have now. The congress has no power over money, Private banks have full power over the issuance. The mark up account balances out of thin air, and have sent hundreds of trillions to European banks. Saying thats what we have now is like saying we have already figured out time travel. We don't have any power over money.
If the Fed exists to regulate this, why did they miss the housing & credit bank crisis? Because they caused it.
We have a free floating currency based on money creation from local banks which is more or less what the US had during the civil war (and incidentally lead to major banking crisies after the Civil War was over)
The difference now is it's poorly regulated by the fed which is more than it was centuries ago.
It's not the peoples who controlled the money it was the government. You just got rid of the FED in the equasion but it changes hardly anything. government money backed by nothing can not store value because it (state) can print whatever amount it wants. So the business cycle (boom->bust) is still there biting your ass just as the ABCT sais.
Again: MONEY HAS TO BE A LEGITIMATE STORE OF VALUE. And gold fulfills this need.
Not to mention that in the end of this road you will ger reichsmark style hyperinflation and essentially destroy the currency. It will buy nothing just like the Zimbabwan trillion dollars banknotes. The one dollar in Zimbabwe bought more stuff than a trillion year later.
@AndroidPolitician The "Fact" is, if we went to the Lincoln Model, we would have plentiful money & we could fully pay off our national debt with a debt free government issued currency controlled by the people of this country as the Constitution intended. We don't have to have a national debt, the bankers fear this. Taking back the monetary authority's would be the greatest thing we could do for ourselves...
@IBloodSweatTears I agree with you and fuck david espein the child rapist, today's inflation is measure a lot of different back in the 80's, it does';t count oil prices, ARM mortgage rates
This guy Epstein is really clueless. He says governments hiring people to build roads and bridges is an investment and therefore legitimate. First of all, an investment is supposed to be profitable, but how is forcing the country in debt to build more infrastructure a good investment? A country should first make a profit from production and export and THEN it can afford to build better infrastructure by raising taxes on spending. This guy has to whole thing backwards.
Good debate. Very enjoyable stuff. I'm glad Peter Schiff was able to take time off running EuroPac and Epstein was able to take time off nailing his own daughter.
Columbia? Ivy league? This guy has a P.h.D Jesus Christ!! I'm thinking about going to grad school for the same topic he teaches. I'd be better off getting my degree from a cracker jack box if this is the standard I'm supposed to live up to.
Peter Destroyed him. This guy is a professor?Shit maybe i should become a professor it seems to me you don't need much qualifications you just have to show some charts and do whatever the text books say, and hope you don't get into any discussions with anyone that makes sense.
@88spammer Right, but rather than looking at someone's title, people should look at what their achievements are. This guy achieved nothing; he's an educated fool.
This guy teaches economics? At Columbia?!! He's an idiot. He seems to be basing his economic theory more on political idealism than economic theory. Columbia?!! Do you know what they charge per credit at that school? Just to get indoctrinated in political economic philosophy by a liberal Keynesian hack. The fact that he is so politically biased and fails to see fault because he doesn't like Republicans is telling. So is the fact that most college grads can't find jobs. Free Market.
Epstein's critique of Schiff's analogies are irrelevant and unsubstantial. I find Schiff's analogies accurate.
By the way, Epstein isn't a child rapist. A creep who did incest with his daughter, yes. But she was not a child and he did not rape her, it was consensual. Don't overstate things.
He banged his daughter due to a perversion which built up in his mind over the years hiding the fact he is gay. Instead of giving in to it his sexual urges he held them in until he ended up banging his daughter. Much like the priest who doesn't have sex for years and then ends up touching little kids.
Not only what Peter is saying going to come true, but there some things that he ISN'T saying that are just as scary. Take the employment for ex, less and less people have jobs, which means less people are paying income tax (around 50% aren't paying ANY!). These people need money somehow so what do they do? Go on gov't assistance (food stamps, etc) which costs the gov't more money, so they'll have raise taxes for more revenue, which will cost more job less...eventually the system will collapse
I think Schiff has an instinctively sound understanding of what's going on and Epstein doesn't. The frightening part is that Epstein is teaching his "wisdom" to others and probably gets paid very well for it. I believe the professors salary is a terrible misallocation of resources ( :
Epstein was obviously in way over his head in debating Schiff. Professors tend to be great theorists but profoundly incorrect in terms of real-world reality. Epstein's posturing is silly.
This guy that is voluntary going out on a stage to debate Peter Schiff is either bumb, or... well, yeah... He can't be anything else if he is not researching hes opponent...
People REALLY need to shut up about Peter's opponent having sex with his own daughter. That's fucking irrelevant here. What is relevant, however, is how he fared in the debate, and from what I've seen so far, not good at all.
The guy cannot quote his hero Keynes correctly and who does he keep looking at when Schiff hands his ass to him?! This guy Epstein is dumber than the economics professor in "Back to School" with Rodney Dangerfield. I didnt realize that he is the professor at Columbia that was batting for the same team. When I say batting for the same team,I mean,he was having sex with his own daughter! People are surprised he is still at Columbia for the incest Im surprised he is still there after the debate
I'm not to concerned that some proff. at some elite school doesn't understand economics, its more of a problem that he's teaching these failed ideas to other people. People who don't have a choice but to learn them. Hopefully somebody will give those poor kids a copy of Economics in Once Lesson and Human Action some day....
I was watching this video and then googles epstein to write him an email about how far-off he was about this ridiculous points he attempts to make.. then I saw all the headlines. I knew this guy was a piece of shit the moment he opened his mouth. Schiff fucking killed him on the stage and I hope someone kills him in real life.
"nobody thinks yet that the US is on their way to defaulting on their debt". Well here it is a year and a half later and I'll bet even Epstein isn't stupid enough to make that statement now.
That Epstein is brilliant. Paraphrase: "using analogies (anthropomorphising the economy) to describe fundamental economic problems is what causes those problems".
For $45,000 per year, you too can learn from the best and brightest of Columbia University like David Epstein. That sucking sound is a nondischargeable education bubble.
omfg just look at the moderators face when they start debating at the table i've never seen a black man blush so much XD but seriously great debate fun stuff.
The audacity and decisiveness of Sciff over Epstein still amazes me.
This is perhaps the best debate of it's kind I have ever seen. Sad to see Epstein try his best to defend the notion that you can stimulate the economy by taking money out of it and putting it back in again.
Epstein thinks huge debt is a result of "investment" and is therefore a good thing? Is it a good thing for you or me to get into huge credit card or mortgage debt because it is an "investment?" And I wonder how good a return those who lent to all the socialist European governments that are now having to implement austerity measures because of their huge debt are getting.
what a shitty production job. mics werent setup properly, theres shit everywhere, everyone is opening cans of soda. show some class you ivy league slobs!
I really feel sorry for all the student that get huge debts so they can listen to this demented moron David Epstein. It really dumbs down the American education when you see David speak. Not only is he stupid he also has sex with his daughter, what kind of sick weirdo is he? Shame on Columbia for hiring a stupid fool like David. A columbia degree wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on with David lecturing. I can learn more from free documentaries on the internet than I can off David.
During the time of this debate Epstein was cheating on his wife with his blood daughter. She was 22 at the time and it was consensual but still. What a disgusting creep.
I think you mean Keynesians are NOT homogenous. Or maybe you meant to say heterogenous? Now that you've disclosed you are a business student I totally understand your perspective. I was a business student once, too. Our system is built on Keynesian theory, so guess what they teach us in our schools. I don't see them as mutually exclusive and I find truth in both. I live in the investment world and it's how I make a living. When you get here you'll do the same.
Unrelated to his ineptitude in economics but LITERALLY a year later to the day this was posted Epstein was accused of sleeping with his own 24 year old daughter. Google it from the Huffington Post I shit you not...
What happened to Classical Economics vs American School Economics, the Democrats/Jeffersonians vs the Federalists/Whigs/Republicans. Screw newer economic systems like Keynesianism and socialism.
Epstein needs to read Bastiat. he really aint much of an economist as he doesnt even understand There Aint NO Such Thing As A Free Lunch! moreover, the govt is a negative entity not a positive force
Epstein ought to go study up on history- geez epstein, ever heard of the depression of 1921? yeah i bet u didn't cuz it was so short, quick & efficient cuz govt stayed out of the economy & it was able to correct itself within about a year or so
Depression is the consequence of malinvestment- simple as that. The loss of jobs is merely a sympton not the cause of disease.
Epstein is pointlessly accusing Schiff of 'anthropomorphizing' the economy because of Schiff's analogies, at every turn Epstein is assigning MORAL VALUES to all actions within economy, saying things like: rich are abusing the poor, etc.
It's as if a physics professor started talking about gravity and instead of explaining how to calculate it he said:
Gravity is a result of a class war, where the rich abuse the poor and we must fight gravity with government regulations.
NOT FOR A SECOND did Epstein sound like an economist.
He sounded ONLY like some sort of a Marxist who only has ONE thing on his mind: fucking dirty rich people, we must take all their money and distribute it.
@SirWinstoneChurchill Are you in a loop of some sort? Didn't you say the same thing like 5 minutes ago? What do you have, short memory loss or something?
Anyway, I'll reiterate - you are the idiot here, supporting an idiotic law that turns 2 consenting adults into criminals. This is ridiculous and retarded and idiotic, and anybody supporting a law like that is an idiot.
Now, Epstein is not an economist, but he shouldn't be put to jail over this, fucking retarded society that comes up with shit
Finally, you are still the idiot. The 24 y.o. is his child, sure, but she is an adult. Unless he raped her, I don't see how this is the business of the state, so go fuck yourself, or is that against the law as well wherever the fuck you are?
It is worth noting Epstein's dismissiveness of Schiff's use of analogies. Analogies and simple to understand stories have been used since language was created by humans for the purpose of explaining things in an easy to digest format.
Propagandists such as Epstein detest analogies because they would rather explain things in terms of unproven metrics, faulty statistics (which disasters can later be blamed on), etc...
Calling this a "debate" would be akin to describing Chuck Lidell punching a child a "fight". I would say that Epstein got completely castrated during this exchange, on second thought, I don't think he had anything there to be clipped in the first place.
If anyone is still wondering why we have so many problems in our current system I would argue that moronic government fundamentalists such as Epstein are propagandizing young minds at every level of our institutions of "higher learning"
Smith argued that the strength of a nation’s economy was found in its total volume of goods and services exchanged, not the gold in its treasury. This idea took an extremely long time to take hold, in some ways the old regime is still not really dead. Our founding fathers did not embrace this idea, and our money was backed by gold or silver held in reserve for over a century after the Revolution.
What would the US economy look like if Schiff's Austrian Economist/Libertarian theories were put in place across the board? Would more of the country rise or would the number of poor without any safety nets increase? Would chaos/free-for--all ensue? Would the deficit decrease demonstrably? With no Fed how would banks set their rates? We can always do better, but are these ideas sound and proven? Are they just for democracies or would state control/command economies (PRC) pull ahead? And taxes?
@Tsnore Well knowing human nature. When people are forced to make it happen or starve they usually find a way to make it. I'm not saying that we should not have safety nets. However those nets should be close to home. (i.e. family, church, local, maybe even state... but not Federal!)
@Tsnore If Austrian economics / libertarianism were made policy, the U.S. would have the same sort of growth as it had in the 19th and early 20th centuries. In the 1880s, average prices decreased 3%/year; so workers got the same as a 3% pay raise every year). Re interest rates: they are just a PRICE -- no different in principle from other prices, and can be set by the supply of loanable funds and the demand for them by borrowers. Like other prices, interest, too, would tend toward uniformity.
What annoys me the most is the contemptuous, disinterested look on Epstein's face. He spends the whole time when Peter Schiff is talking either rolling his eyes or staring off into space. I take this as a sign that even he knows his theories are dead in the water and the only way to debate someone with a logical, rational theory is with disdain and arrogance.
Food prices are at record highs (just not in this country) There are food riots because they are worse than the GREAT depression. Nothing stopping it now. Time to wake up.
Epstein and his ilk ARE on drugs. and they don't even know it nor do they care about it because they are in the academic world and know that their world will not collapse. they'll keep pulling their bloated salaries and teach crap generation to generation. fck 'em all :))
check out the two "video responses." the videotape ended early, so the remaining few minutes were recorded on two short cell phone videos. The quality isn't great, but check 'em out :-)
@TynesCarney Thanks for the heads up I watched them. I guess Peter wasn't through beating this guy up so he went to the table and slapped him around a bit longer.
I love Peter Schiff!! I hope Peter gets the opportunity to educate our professors and leaders of this country very soon. Epstein is too stupid to be a professor. Go Peter! Wow! Your insight and the delivery is Awesome!
@BigMuscleWoman yeah why listen to economists who spend their lives studying macroeconomic theory and who outnumber Austrian School dumbshits 1000 to 1. Lets listen to Peter "I'm making a killing outsourcing jobs and shorting the U.S. dollar" Shiff. Fuck peter Schiff, he isn't an economist, he's a fucking hypocrite. He says he doesn't invest in U.S. companies right now because the government is too involved and he doesn't trust them, SO HE GOES TO CHINA TO INVEST ALL HIS MONEY! hahah GENIUS!
@durhamdf speaking as someone with a degree in a real science, macroeconomics is a joke. It fails every criteria of scientific inquiry from square one. Human economic behavior is subjective, and it is therefore impossible to scientifically measure the things that mainstream economists pretend they can measure. They use very complex mathematical models to disguise the reality that human economic behavior cannot be scientifically managed.
@gergenheimer what "real science is that"? Of course Keynesian economics isn't going to be a mathmatically proven law of science! But unlike the Austrian retards, it at least follows the scientific method, making assumptions to test a hypothesis and then testing these assumtpions to determine if they are reasonable or not. Austrians just say, you can't accurately measure these things so why even try. And Keynesian economics doesn't dictate anything, it is just a guidline for viewing the economy
@durhamdf You are proving my point - the scientific method is only valid if it produces testable, refutable hypotheses and tests them with empirical, hard data. Macroeconomic theory doesn't pass this test. Just because economists mimic the scientific process doesn't give validity to the results. Austrians recognize this truth, so they insist on stopping short of the meaningless number crunching of mainstream economics, because they understand that it has no scientific meaning.
@gergenheimer I think wheree you are getting confused is that Keynesians deal with hypothetical economies. Of course when you are dealing with agregates the size of the world economy it is impossible to predict anything with certainty. All KEynesians do is simplify the economy so that we can analyze the sorts of effects different policies might have. And that is absolutely testable and repeatable. Austrians are just as guilty when it comes to oversimplifying but they just won't admit it.
@durhamdf No, the theories of macroeconomics are NOT testable and repeatable, because there are hundreds, even thousands of interconnected variables which can't be isolated or removed. In valid scientific testing you must be able to isolate and control all variables or remove the ones you can't control. What's more, the individual economic actor is the biggest variable of all - human beings have subjective values - macroeconomics tries to ignore this fact completely.
@gergenheimer You think the Austrians don't work in agregates?!?! It is impossible to just add up the sums of every single individual actors specifics needs and interests! You absolutely can isolate and remove variables to test theories in Keyneisan economics. Many scientific theories involve massive aggregates and cannot be mathmatically proven. The theory of evolution for instance, it is impossible to calculate all the variables, but we can still create workable models.
@durhamdf Show me where Austrians use mathematical aggregations like "Capital" (as if the capital structure is a homogenous, featureless blob "K"), or "Investment" (as if all forms of investment are the same). You won't be able to find it because Austrians realize the fallacy of these pseudo-scientific aggregates. "It is impossible to just add up the sums of every single individual actors specifics needs and interests!" EXACTLY! That's why macroeconomics fails the test of science.
@gergenheimer You can't discuss the economy as a whole WITHOUT USING AGGREGATES! That was my point, obviously you can't shape policy based on a survey of every American asking them how they would react to this policy! You need to create models based on assumptions and aggregates. And so far, the Keynesian models have proven to be a lot more reliable than any others. THIS IS WHY KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS IS CALLED MAINSTREAM ECONOMICS AND AUSTRIAN ECONOMICS IS TAUGHT IN A HAND FULL OF CLOWN COLLEGES!
@durhamdf just because a school of thought is predominant, doesn't prove its correctness. (see "flat earth") Austrians don't focus as much on the "economy as a whole" because this is almost always an unscientific and ultimately meaningless approach. Aggregation is necessary if you think of society as a machine to be scientifically managed. Unfortunately for this approach, the nominal monetary sum of billions of subjective economic decisions is not an objective, scientifically relevant number.
@gergenheimer Comparing how academia works today to the bullshit mysticism that took place before the scientific revolution is retarded and to quote you "meaningless". It doesn't prove beyond all possible doubt that Keynesian economics is right and Austrian Economics is a craxkpot theory but it is a pretty damn good indication that this is the case! If Austrian Economic theory was at all useful it would be taught at more schools period. (contd)...
@durhamdf The question you need to ask yourself is "To whom is Keynesian economic theory most 'useful'"? The belief that the economy is just a machine driven by arbitrary spending provides great intellectual cover for the government and powerful special interests. Should it be any surprise that the Austrian School, which denounces government interference in the private economy, is excluded from mainstream, state-run schools and universities? Are you really that naive?
@gergenheimer lol what are you talking about? All of the most powerful special interests represent the interests of the most powerful corporations. THOSE CORPORATIONS ALL LOBBY FOR WHAT ARE BASICALLY AUSTRIAN POLICIY I.E. LESS GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT AND REGULATION! Secondly your argument that this is a government conspiracy to keep this out of universities is fucking retarded seeing as how the only schools that teach Austrian economics are some community colleges. Private schools don't either!
@durhamdf HA! So you swallowed the Junior High School civics class myth that big corporations hate regulation? Regulations impose costs that harm small competitors more than the big corporations. Research the history of the railroad industry, the banking industry, healthcare, automobiles, etc. What you will find is that the big corporations lobbied for regulations behind the scenes, while publicly denouncing the regulations ("don't throw me in the briar patch!")
Respond to this video... conspiracy has nothing to do with it - when you have a society where generations of the people are taught from the time they are infants that government is benign and beneficial to everyone - that the State is master of all it surveys, it should be no surprise when the culture adopts increasingly collectivist ideas and rejects any significant criticisms of government as "crackpot", because these ideas challenge the status quo of statist thinking.
@gergenheimer That is a conspiracy theory, that kids are being indoctrinated at young ages to love and trust the government! That is complete bullshit and I think you know it. If anything, the culture that younger generations have picked up is a very independent minded distrust for the government. That doesn't mean that we can't understand that there are times when government intervention is absolutely necessary! You are crackpots because you are a tiny minority and your theories are useless
@durhamdf A conspiracy theory would involve a small group specifically directing outcomes - I'm talking about a gradual shift in cultural paradigms over time - it doesn't have to be directed by anyone or any group for people to be indoctrinated to think a certain way. The next time you go to a sporting event, and 99% of the crowd stands and chants while staring up longingly at the U.S flag, come back and tell me that our culture doesn't brainwash people to love and trust their government.
I would point you to another crackpot with "useless" theories. When Galileo did his research and concluded that the Sun was the center of the solar system and the Earth revolved around the Sun, he was denounced as a heretic. The people of his day had all been taught from infancy that God made the Earth the center of the universe. The court scientists of Europe had created complex, convoluted theories and math formulas to justify the State/church position and Galileo was imprisoned fro life.
3 years later 15T+ in debt what does he say about that now?
iTitanium 2 days ago
Schiff absolutely dominated this debate, that was fun to watch.
ImhoffInstruments 5 days ago
They have to have a person sit between them to keep them apart, wow, there grown ass men, they should know how to behave themselves. Epstien is a douche, disrespection Schiff to start thee thing off telling him "You can speak where ever you wanna." Douchebag...
IBloodSweatTears 2 weeks ago
Say what you will about Epstien but in the debate he's right. We have lower inflation today in the 2000s let alone the 70s let alone Zimbabwe-style hyperinflation.
Literally no amount of evidence will ever convince Austrians otherwise.
AndroidPolitician 1 month ago
Comment removed
norskemann1 2 weeks ago
@AndroidPolitician This may be true, but where on a path for a currency collapse & hyperinflation on a much bigger scale. Financial markets will collapse, there will to runs on stores & banks. Business will uproot, unemployment will skyrocket, savings will be disintegrated, GDP decline will be 10-20+ percents.
IBloodSweatTears 2 weeks ago
@IBloodSweatTears
We're not even at full employment which makes a lot of inflation let alone something like 20 times over which creates hyperinflation.
AndroidPolitician 2 weeks ago
@AndroidPolitician High Unemployment level's don't create high inflation... Unemployment has nothing to do with inflation, Inflation is mainly in relation with monetary policy. Check out the value of the dollar from 1913-2012, The FED has devalued purchasing power so significantly the dollar has lost 96% of it's value.
The dollar will lose the residual trust that the world has had in it for a decades, and when it does, it will be even worse than 1929.
IBloodSweatTears 2 weeks ago
@IBloodSweatTears
Inflation is done through supply and demand, and "devaluing" is inherent since the money supply grows as an economy grows. It would impractical to have an 1800s money supply today.
AndroidPolitician 2 weeks ago
@AndroidPolitician no need to go to an 1800's money supply. What you need to do is go back to the model that Lincoln had. You need to understand the reason he was killed. He was killed because he began making the "Greenback" to fund the Civil War. Prior to this money was extremely scarce.
The problem is that in 1913 we handed over the monetary authority to a profiteering group. We need to take back the power to coin money & regulate the value there of. All of our money is now issued at debt.
IBloodSweatTears 2 weeks ago
@IBloodSweatTears
Lincoln was killed because of a crazy confederate, the fact is if we went to "Lincoln's Model" it would create a super massive depression because of the reduction in useable funds.
To be sustainable the supply would have to be like 0.000001 oz gold per dollar but that's obviously impractical.
AndroidPolitician 6 days ago
@AndroidPolitician You have no knowledge of monetary history. The Lincoln model had nothing to do with gold, well, correction, at the time, money supply was scarce & they needed a way to fund the Civil War. Thus, the greenback was born, a debt free, government issued currency, backed by nothing except the good faith in credit of the united states, money then became plentiful & economy boomed, This debt free people controlled currency was a threat to the international bankers
IBloodSweatTears 6 days ago
@IBloodSweatTears
That's basically what we have now, I don't know if you realize this but the Federal Reserve doesn't create the money supply, it's local banks that do that and that loan it on interest, the federal reserve exists to regulate this process and encourage banks to either lend more or less.
AndroidPolitician 6 days ago
@AndroidPolitician That's not what we have now. The congress has no power over money, Private banks have full power over the issuance. The mark up account balances out of thin air, and have sent hundreds of trillions to European banks. Saying thats what we have now is like saying we have already figured out time travel. We don't have any power over money.
If the Fed exists to regulate this, why did they miss the housing & credit bank crisis? Because they caused it.
IBloodSweatTears 6 days ago
@IBloodSweatTears
We have a free floating currency based on money creation from local banks which is more or less what the US had during the civil war (and incidentally lead to major banking crisies after the Civil War was over)
The difference now is it's poorly regulated by the fed which is more than it was centuries ago.
AndroidPolitician 3 days ago
It's not the peoples who controlled the money it was the government. You just got rid of the FED in the equasion but it changes hardly anything. government money backed by nothing can not store value because it (state) can print whatever amount it wants. So the business cycle (boom->bust) is still there biting your ass just as the ABCT sais.
Again: MONEY HAS TO BE A LEGITIMATE STORE OF VALUE. And gold fulfills this need.
Damn i'm smart when I listen to Schiff :DDD
pipem4n 4 days ago
@pipem4n
Not to mention that in the end of this road you will ger reichsmark style hyperinflation and essentially destroy the currency. It will buy nothing just like the Zimbabwan trillion dollars banknotes. The one dollar in Zimbabwe bought more stuff than a trillion year later.
pipem4n 4 days ago
@AndroidPolitician The "Fact" is, if we went to the Lincoln Model, we would have plentiful money & we could fully pay off our national debt with a debt free government issued currency controlled by the people of this country as the Constitution intended. We don't have to have a national debt, the bankers fear this. Taking back the monetary authority's would be the greatest thing we could do for ourselves...
IBloodSweatTears 6 days ago
@IBloodSweatTears I agree with you and fuck david espein the child rapist, today's inflation is measure a lot of different back in the 80's, it does';t count oil prices, ARM mortgage rates
trueconservatie33 1 week ago
Epstein has no basic understanding of (or respect for) a market economy. No wonder he's a professor. He couldn't get a job as an economist.
InventorB2B 1 month ago
This guy Epstein is really clueless. He says governments hiring people to build roads and bridges is an investment and therefore legitimate. First of all, an investment is supposed to be profitable, but how is forcing the country in debt to build more infrastructure a good investment? A country should first make a profit from production and export and THEN it can afford to build better infrastructure by raising taxes on spending. This guy has to whole thing backwards.
TWSceptic 1 month ago 4
Ha, you know Epstein is a big government liberal. He kept wincing anytime Schiff criticized the government, even slightly.
takerdust 1 month ago
Good debate. Very enjoyable stuff. I'm glad Peter Schiff was able to take time off running EuroPac and Epstein was able to take time off nailing his own daughter.
ClapsyPlapsy 1 month ago 5
Columbia? Ivy league? This guy has a P.h.D Jesus Christ!! I'm thinking about going to grad school for the same topic he teaches. I'd be better off getting my degree from a cracker jack box if this is the standard I'm supposed to live up to.
sellsjeeps 2 months ago 3
Peter Destroyed him. This guy is a professor?Shit maybe i should become a professor it seems to me you don't need much qualifications you just have to show some charts and do whatever the text books say, and hope you don't get into any discussions with anyone that makes sense.
88spammer 2 months ago
@88spammer Right, but rather than looking at someone's title, people should look at what their achievements are. This guy achieved nothing; he's an educated fool.
TWSceptic 1 month ago
PLUS - this creepy Kensian was charged with incest with his own daughter. So, he's just WRONG on so many levels it's amazing
ClarkHowell 2 months ago
@ClarkHowell Was he convicted?
Brajabu74 2 months ago
@Brajabu74 YES. "Epstein pleads guilty to misdemeanor charge of attempted incest". Obviously he pleaded guilty to escape bigger charges.
TWSceptic 1 month ago
This guy teaches economics? At Columbia?!! He's an idiot. He seems to be basing his economic theory more on political idealism than economic theory. Columbia?!! Do you know what they charge per credit at that school? Just to get indoctrinated in political economic philosophy by a liberal Keynesian hack. The fact that he is so politically biased and fails to see fault because he doesn't like Republicans is telling. So is the fact that most college grads can't find jobs. Free Market.
Brajabu74 2 months ago
Peter crushes this dude. Debating Keynesian theory of the business cycle is so satisfying cause its so easy to disprove.
jmtorres5787 2 months ago
WHAT THE....Was Peter debating Jimmy Kimmel?
misosong 2 months ago
Peter starts to talk @ 20:16
TheMEK3 2 months ago 6
Epstein's critique of Schiff's analogies are irrelevant and unsubstantial. I find Schiff's analogies accurate.
By the way, Epstein isn't a child rapist. A creep who did incest with his daughter, yes. But she was not a child and he did not rape her, it was consensual. Don't overstate things.
He did rape economic truth here, though.
Jotto999 3 months ago 10
He banged his daughter due to a perversion which built up in his mind over the years hiding the fact he is gay. Instead of giving in to it his sexual urges he held them in until he ended up banging his daughter. Much like the priest who doesn't have sex for years and then ends up touching little kids.
762foru 3 months ago
The title: "How Obama's Policies are Saving the Economy". I lol'd.
labrusca10 3 months ago
Not only what Peter is saying going to come true, but there some things that he ISN'T saying that are just as scary. Take the employment for ex, less and less people have jobs, which means less people are paying income tax (around 50% aren't paying ANY!). These people need money somehow so what do they do? Go on gov't assistance (food stamps, etc) which costs the gov't more money, so they'll have raise taxes for more revenue, which will cost more job less...eventually the system will collapse
dpbb2005 4 months ago
I think Schiff has an instinctively sound understanding of what's going on and Epstein doesn't. The frightening part is that Epstein is teaching his "wisdom" to others and probably gets paid very well for it. I believe the professors salary is a terrible misallocation of resources ( :
Michael7477 4 months ago 2
Schiff walked all over this guy.
K20ej88 4 months ago
53:15 Peter thinking "I'm going to destroy this moron."
yuppyguitar1 5 months ago
I give the professor credit for fixing his hair, rolling his eyes, and being a sassy faggot.
BobTheBuilder378 5 months ago 25
@BobTheBuilder378 - What about drinking water? He drank a lot of water.
ohaileagain 5 months ago
@ohaileagain In all fairness... yes.
BobTheBuilder378 5 months ago
@BobTheBuilder378 Hahaha! That was perfect.
bab15201 2 months ago
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BobTheBuilder378 5 months ago
it should've been titled peter schiff DESTROYS epstein. flawless victory. fatality.
theeonionbagel 5 months ago 3
Epstein was obviously in way over his head in debating Schiff. Professors tend to be great theorists but profoundly incorrect in terms of real-world reality. Epstein's posturing is silly.
vaktomhu 5 months ago 2
I almost felt bad for the guy.
Almost.
jimbo525SE 5 months ago 2
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bornhustler 6 months ago
This guy that is voluntary going out on a stage to debate Peter Schiff is either bumb, or... well, yeah... He can't be anything else if he is not researching hes opponent...
bornhustler 6 months ago
In the near future someone should make another "peter schiff was right" video!
Staatsmacht12 6 months ago
well 2011 is here and looks like Peter Schiff was right again.
sendyoshit 6 months ago 3
People REALLY need to shut up about Peter's opponent having sex with his own daughter. That's fucking irrelevant here. What is relevant, however, is how he fared in the debate, and from what I've seen so far, not good at all.
TheManiacalSatanist6 6 months ago 2
This arsehole is actually teaching economics to students?
mokum777 6 months ago
@mokum777 He and way too many other Keynesians.
xtreme1002003 6 months ago
The guy cannot quote his hero Keynes correctly and who does he keep looking at when Schiff hands his ass to him?! This guy Epstein is dumber than the economics professor in "Back to School" with Rodney Dangerfield. I didnt realize that he is the professor at Columbia that was batting for the same team. When I say batting for the same team,I mean,he was having sex with his own daughter! People are surprised he is still at Columbia for the incest Im surprised he is still there after the debate
quinnrasta 6 months ago
I'm not to concerned that some proff. at some elite school doesn't understand economics, its more of a problem that he's teaching these failed ideas to other people. People who don't have a choice but to learn them. Hopefully somebody will give those poor kids a copy of Economics in Once Lesson and Human Action some day....
Josephawilson86 6 months ago
@Josephawilson86 Someone could, but they wouldn't understand those books. Human Action especially.
TheManiacalSatanist6 6 months ago
I was watching this video and then googles epstein to write him an email about how far-off he was about this ridiculous points he attempts to make.. then I saw all the headlines. I knew this guy was a piece of shit the moment he opened his mouth. Schiff fucking killed him on the stage and I hope someone kills him in real life.
sev3ndaytheory 7 months ago 2
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TynesCarney 6 months ago
"nobody thinks yet that the US is on their way to defaulting on their debt". Well here it is a year and a half later and I'll bet even Epstein isn't stupid enough to make that statement now.
paullie6719 7 months ago
That Epstein is brilliant. Paraphrase: "using analogies (anthropomorphising the economy) to describe fundamental economic problems is what causes those problems".
paullie6719 7 months ago
I think I'll pick the Austrian economist over the child rapist
xpostal1289x 7 months ago 55
@xpostal1289x - I think on an intellectual level David Epstein has done far worse things than rape.
StateExempt 6 months ago
@xpostal1289x
child rapist?
itsj0eyhere 4 months ago
@itsj0eyhere He fucked his daughter, google it.
yuppyguitar1 3 months ago
@yuppyguitar1
I know, he had a consensual relationship with his 24 year old daughter. He's not a child rapist
itsj0eyhere 3 months ago
@itsj0eyhere That sure is a euphemistic way of putting it.
yuppyguitar1 3 months ago
@yuppyguitar1
was it a child? the daughter was 24
was it rape? no it was consensual
It was incest but it certainly wasent child rape which was the comment i was replying to, its not a euphemism its the facts.
itsj0eyhere 3 months ago
@itsj0eyhere You used a key word this time that was omitted from your original reply. The word is incest. Good job.
yuppyguitar1 3 months ago
@yuppyguitar1
Was it child rape? yes or no?
itsj0eyhere 3 months ago
@yuppyguitar1
no reply? yeh thats what i thought.
itsj0eyhere 3 months ago
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@xpostal1289x
child rapist?
itsj0eyhere 4 months ago
For $45,000 per year, you too can learn from the best and brightest of Columbia University like David Epstein. That sucking sound is a nondischargeable education bubble.
DanteSpinotti1 7 months ago
I'm ten minutes into Epstein's presentation and he is totally full of shit.
hummarstra 7 months ago
Epstein, meet economics. Economics, meet Epstein.
YourNameHere1212 7 months ago
Excellent debate. Though I don't agree 100 percent with either participant, I'd love to pick apart their brains over a long dinner.
zagat44 7 months ago
omfg just look at the moderators face when they start debating at the table i've never seen a black man blush so much XD but seriously great debate fun stuff.
Batta0909 8 months ago
The audacity and decisiveness of Sciff over Epstein still amazes me.
This is perhaps the best debate of it's kind I have ever seen. Sad to see Epstein try his best to defend the notion that you can stimulate the economy by taking money out of it and putting it back in again.
StateExempt 8 months ago
Epstein thinks huge debt is a result of "investment" and is therefore a good thing? Is it a good thing for you or me to get into huge credit card or mortgage debt because it is an "investment?" And I wonder how good a return those who lent to all the socialist European governments that are now having to implement austerity measures because of their huge debt are getting.
xtreme1002003 8 months ago
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llcooljim97 8 months ago
Peter please come to Binghamton University and debate all of my macroeconomics professors
llcooljim97 8 months ago
Is David Epstein gay?
nwaustx2011 8 months ago
@nwaustx2011 He might be bi, but he's not gay; he had sex with his own daughter and has/had a wife.
xtreme1002003 8 months ago
what a shitty production job. mics werent setup properly, theres shit everywhere, everyone is opening cans of soda. show some class you ivy league slobs!
iamnick2k3 8 months ago
This was excruciating to watch.
noidonotgofish 8 months ago
That guy's gay.
noidonotgofish 8 months ago
i like how epstein nominally defined an animal in his attempt to refute peter's analogy...lol
MrGTR22 8 months ago
I really feel sorry for all the student that get huge debts so they can listen to this demented moron David Epstein. It really dumbs down the American education when you see David speak. Not only is he stupid he also has sex with his daughter, what kind of sick weirdo is he? Shame on Columbia for hiring a stupid fool like David. A columbia degree wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on with David lecturing. I can learn more from free documentaries on the internet than I can off David.
SpaceWalkTraveller 8 months ago
Peter Schiff should have brought up that Epstein fucks his daughter and therefore all his points are null.
DrDavidHowler 8 months ago
During the time of this debate Epstein was cheating on his wife with his blood daughter. She was 22 at the time and it was consensual but still. What a disgusting creep.
brad238899 9 months ago 2
I think you mean Keynesians are NOT homogenous. Or maybe you meant to say heterogenous? Now that you've disclosed you are a business student I totally understand your perspective. I was a business student once, too. Our system is built on Keynesian theory, so guess what they teach us in our schools. I don't see them as mutually exclusive and I find truth in both. I live in the investment world and it's how I make a living. When you get here you'll do the same.
3domfight3r 9 months ago
David Epstein is a tool
defgill 9 months ago
Just five words........Peter Schiff was right..AGAIN!
firestrings272 9 months ago
Is this David Epstein that got thrown in jail for incest with his daughter?
metropool 9 months ago
Is this the same David Epstein that got charged with third degree INCEST for allegedly having sex with his own daughter? Good grief....
trufbetold 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Unrelated to his ineptitude in economics but LITERALLY a year later to the day this was posted Epstein was accused of sleeping with his own 24 year old daughter. Google it from the Huffington Post I shit you not...
uwmbigb 10 months ago
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uwmbigb 10 months ago
What happened to Classical Economics vs American School Economics, the Democrats/Jeffersonians vs the Federalists/Whigs/Republicans. Screw newer economic systems like Keynesianism and socialism.
Willredd94 10 months ago
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I can not believe this guy is a economy professor in a university.........
out of touch with reality and the real world......
only people with real and continuing world experience should be allow to teach
juansava 10 months ago
I can not believe this guy is a economy professor in a university.......................
out of touch with reality and the real world......
only people with real and continuing world experience should be allow to teach
juansava 10 months ago
this is soooo hard to watch i mean the teacher is making a fool of himself. REPRESENT PETER
longlivetherepublic1 11 months ago 2
"how obama is saving the economy." WTF right off the bat i know this is going to be good
longlivetherepublic1 11 months ago 2
The professor is clueless.
EMPIRE0FLIES 11 months ago
Wow, I feel bad for this professor. He's so clueless, so arrogant in his Ivory Tower (with a foundation built on sand).
Sadly, too many profs are completely detached from reality.
Peter S. absolutely destroys this clown.
siggymartin 11 months ago
Epstein needs to read Bastiat. he really aint much of an economist as he doesnt even understand There Aint NO Such Thing As A Free Lunch! moreover, the govt is a negative entity not a positive force
swu880 11 months ago
Epstein ought to go study up on history- geez epstein, ever heard of the depression of 1921? yeah i bet u didn't cuz it was so short, quick & efficient cuz govt stayed out of the economy & it was able to correct itself within about a year or so
Depression is the consequence of malinvestment- simple as that. The loss of jobs is merely a sympton not the cause of disease.
swu880 11 months ago 2
13 minutes in.... bye bye columbia
swu880 11 months ago
The poor students at Columbia that have to listen to this guy...oh brother. Schiff owned this bloak.
sithjedi71 11 months ago
This debate is just awesome,,, Peter Schiff Rocks!
bjarnet3 11 months ago
Epstein the 'expert" never saw this coming either.
kayaker712 11 months ago
Epstein is pointlessly accusing Schiff of 'anthropomorphizing' the economy because of Schiff's analogies, at every turn Epstein is assigning MORAL VALUES to all actions within economy, saying things like: rich are abusing the poor, etc.
It's as if a physics professor started talking about gravity and instead of explaining how to calculate it he said:
Gravity is a result of a class war, where the rich abuse the poor and we must fight gravity with government regulations.
WHO TAKES HIS CLASSES?
romanmir01 11 months ago 2
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LOL this professor interrupts peter at every turn he is a dipshit.
mcbain434444 11 months ago
LOL this professor interupts peter at every turn he is a dipshit.
mcbain434444 11 months ago
Are Keynesian stupid people or are they brainwashed?
mcbain434444 11 months ago
Peter is a defender of rational and sane economics.
mcbain434444 11 months ago
NOT FOR A SECOND did Epstein sound like an economist.
He sounded ONLY like some sort of a Marxist who only has ONE thing on his mind: fucking dirty rich people, we must take all their money and distribute it.
There was NOTHING ELSE IN HIS HEAD.
romanmir01 11 months ago 7
@romanmir01 Apparently fucking his daughter was also in his sick mind. He was arrested for incest.
Truthpolice9698 8 months ago
@Truthpolice9698 whatever, she was 24 at the time I read, so it's 2 adults. Gov't shouldn't be telling adults how to fuck and who to fuck.
romanmir01 8 months ago
@romanmir01 Not so much the government as just the mental sickness of it. What kind of person would do that?
Truthpolice9698 8 months ago
@romanmir01
He just plead guilty to incest... you are a fucking idiot...
SirWinstoneChurchill 8 months ago
@SirWinstoneChurchill I am a fucking idiot while you are the one defending government getting into business of adult people's sex lives? ha!
romanmir01 8 months ago
@romanmir01
You are a fucking idiot... he just plead guilty to incest...
SirWinstoneChurchill 8 months ago
@SirWinstoneChurchill Are you in a loop of some sort? Didn't you say the same thing like 5 minutes ago? What do you have, short memory loss or something?
Anyway, I'll reiterate - you are the idiot here, supporting an idiotic law that turns 2 consenting adults into criminals. This is ridiculous and retarded and idiotic, and anybody supporting a law like that is an idiot.
Now, Epstein is not an economist, but he shouldn't be put to jail over this, fucking retarded society that comes up with shit
romanmir01 8 months ago
@romanmir01
He just plead guilty, so that means he agrees...
Secondly, I think monogamy as a standard of law is an ecclesiastic religious tyranny.
Finally, you are either a fucking moron or someone who is too stupid not to molest your own children...
SirWinstoneChurchill 8 months ago
@SirWinstoneChurchill He agrees to what? To get a lesser sentence?
What does this have to do with monogamy?
Finally, you are still the idiot. The 24 y.o. is his child, sure, but she is an adult. Unless he raped her, I don't see how this is the business of the state, so go fuck yourself, or is that against the law as well wherever the fuck you are?
romanmir01 8 months ago
its actually sad watching an austrian debate a keynesian
.... its like watching a lion eat a fat zebra
TheBlitz1 11 months ago
This is what incest does, kids.
asianfrenzy666 11 months ago
This is EXACTLY why I will never take a class related to politics or economics at my school.
Crappy, Keynesian professors.
Hackiesacker007 11 months ago
@Hackiesacker007 Question for you? what do you mean by Keynesian? excuse my ignorance. Thank you for the response.
alfamax4562 11 months ago
@Hackiesacker007 Never mind... Keneysian Economics... this is what happens when a Natural Science person listens to economics. Sorry to bother you.
alfamax4562 11 months ago
There is a special place in hell waiting for Epstein and his ilk. The day cannot come soon enough.
swoldier1016 1 year ago
It is worth noting Epstein's dismissiveness of Schiff's use of analogies. Analogies and simple to understand stories have been used since language was created by humans for the purpose of explaining things in an easy to digest format.
Propagandists such as Epstein detest analogies because they would rather explain things in terms of unproven metrics, faulty statistics (which disasters can later be blamed on), etc...
swoldier1016 1 year ago
@swoldier1016 Not to mention how Epstein used analogies before schiff.
mcbain434444 11 months ago
Calling this a "debate" would be akin to describing Chuck Lidell punching a child a "fight". I would say that Epstein got completely castrated during this exchange, on second thought, I don't think he had anything there to be clipped in the first place.
If anyone is still wondering why we have so many problems in our current system I would argue that moronic government fundamentalists such as Epstein are propagandizing young minds at every level of our institutions of "higher learning"
swoldier1016 1 year ago
@swoldier1016 No kidding! I wonder if Epstein learned never to bring a knife to a gunfight.
maxfirepower 11 months ago
wtf i went frome peter chow to this
acter2 1 year ago
so...many...jews...
bobjimjones 1 year ago
Smith argued that the strength of a nation’s economy was found in its total volume of goods and services exchanged, not the gold in its treasury. This idea took an extremely long time to take hold, in some ways the old regime is still not really dead. Our founding fathers did not embrace this idea, and our money was backed by gold or silver held in reserve for over a century after the Revolution.
betadryl 1 year ago
Peter's opponent talks like a SOFT COCK
bykashka75 1 year ago
What would the US economy look like if Schiff's Austrian Economist/Libertarian theories were put in place across the board? Would more of the country rise or would the number of poor without any safety nets increase? Would chaos/free-for--all ensue? Would the deficit decrease demonstrably? With no Fed how would banks set their rates? We can always do better, but are these ideas sound and proven? Are they just for democracies or would state control/command economies (PRC) pull ahead? And taxes?
Tsnore 1 year ago
@Tsnore Well knowing human nature. When people are forced to make it happen or starve they usually find a way to make it. I'm not saying that we should not have safety nets. However those nets should be close to home. (i.e. family, church, local, maybe even state... but not Federal!)
StorminNormin1977 1 year ago
@Tsnore If Austrian economics / libertarianism were made policy, the U.S. would have the same sort of growth as it had in the 19th and early 20th centuries. In the 1880s, average prices decreased 3%/year; so workers got the same as a 3% pay raise every year). Re interest rates: they are just a PRICE -- no different in principle from other prices, and can be set by the supply of loanable funds and the demand for them by borrowers. Like other prices, interest, too, would tend toward uniformity.
economicfreedom8591 1 year ago 3
What annoys me the most is the contemptuous, disinterested look on Epstein's face. He spends the whole time when Peter Schiff is talking either rolling his eyes or staring off into space. I take this as a sign that even he knows his theories are dead in the water and the only way to debate someone with a logical, rational theory is with disdain and arrogance.
shmabadu 1 year ago
Food prices are at record highs (just not in this country) There are food riots because they are worse than the GREAT depression. Nothing stopping it now. Time to wake up.
Rensune 1 year ago
Epstein and his ilk ARE on drugs. and they don't even know it nor do they care about it because they are in the academic world and know that their world will not collapse. they'll keep pulling their bloated salaries and teach crap generation to generation. fck 'em all :))
Rawego 1 year ago
THE LAST QUESTION WAS THE BEST !!!! where's the rest of this video ?
MrBigpopo 1 year ago 2
@MrBigpopo
check out the two "video responses." the videotape ended early, so the remaining few minutes were recorded on two short cell phone videos. The quality isn't great, but check 'em out :-)
TynesCarney 1 year ago
@TynesCarney Thanks for the heads up I watched them. I guess Peter wasn't through beating this guy up so he went to the table and slapped him around a bit longer.
SuperGuitarman69 1 year ago
The best part is from 54:20
Halonkata 1 year ago
that ol' daughterfucker...
juglanscinerea 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The best part 54:20 :)
Halonkata 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The best part 54:20 :)
Halonkata 1 year ago
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Halonkata 1 year ago
I love Peter Schiff!! I hope Peter gets the opportunity to educate our professors and leaders of this country very soon. Epstein is too stupid to be a professor. Go Peter! Wow! Your insight and the delivery is Awesome!
BigMuscleWoman 1 year ago 13
@BigMuscleWoman yeah why listen to economists who spend their lives studying macroeconomic theory and who outnumber Austrian School dumbshits 1000 to 1. Lets listen to Peter "I'm making a killing outsourcing jobs and shorting the U.S. dollar" Shiff. Fuck peter Schiff, he isn't an economist, he's a fucking hypocrite. He says he doesn't invest in U.S. companies right now because the government is too involved and he doesn't trust them, SO HE GOES TO CHINA TO INVEST ALL HIS MONEY! hahah GENIUS!
durhamdf 9 months ago
@durhamdf speaking as someone with a degree in a real science, macroeconomics is a joke. It fails every criteria of scientific inquiry from square one. Human economic behavior is subjective, and it is therefore impossible to scientifically measure the things that mainstream economists pretend they can measure. They use very complex mathematical models to disguise the reality that human economic behavior cannot be scientifically managed.
gergenheimer 9 months ago
@gergenheimer what "real science is that"? Of course Keynesian economics isn't going to be a mathmatically proven law of science! But unlike the Austrian retards, it at least follows the scientific method, making assumptions to test a hypothesis and then testing these assumtpions to determine if they are reasonable or not. Austrians just say, you can't accurately measure these things so why even try. And Keynesian economics doesn't dictate anything, it is just a guidline for viewing the economy
durhamdf 9 months ago
@durhamdf You are proving my point - the scientific method is only valid if it produces testable, refutable hypotheses and tests them with empirical, hard data. Macroeconomic theory doesn't pass this test. Just because economists mimic the scientific process doesn't give validity to the results. Austrians recognize this truth, so they insist on stopping short of the meaningless number crunching of mainstream economics, because they understand that it has no scientific meaning.
gergenheimer 9 months ago
@gergenheimer I think wheree you are getting confused is that Keynesians deal with hypothetical economies. Of course when you are dealing with agregates the size of the world economy it is impossible to predict anything with certainty. All KEynesians do is simplify the economy so that we can analyze the sorts of effects different policies might have. And that is absolutely testable and repeatable. Austrians are just as guilty when it comes to oversimplifying but they just won't admit it.
durhamdf 9 months ago
@durhamdf No, the theories of macroeconomics are NOT testable and repeatable, because there are hundreds, even thousands of interconnected variables which can't be isolated or removed. In valid scientific testing you must be able to isolate and control all variables or remove the ones you can't control. What's more, the individual economic actor is the biggest variable of all - human beings have subjective values - macroeconomics tries to ignore this fact completely.
gergenheimer 9 months ago
@gergenheimer You think the Austrians don't work in agregates?!?! It is impossible to just add up the sums of every single individual actors specifics needs and interests! You absolutely can isolate and remove variables to test theories in Keyneisan economics. Many scientific theories involve massive aggregates and cannot be mathmatically proven. The theory of evolution for instance, it is impossible to calculate all the variables, but we can still create workable models.
durhamdf 9 months ago
@durhamdf Show me where Austrians use mathematical aggregations like "Capital" (as if the capital structure is a homogenous, featureless blob "K"), or "Investment" (as if all forms of investment are the same). You won't be able to find it because Austrians realize the fallacy of these pseudo-scientific aggregates. "It is impossible to just add up the sums of every single individual actors specifics needs and interests!" EXACTLY! That's why macroeconomics fails the test of science.
gergenheimer 9 months ago
@gergenheimer You can't discuss the economy as a whole WITHOUT USING AGGREGATES! That was my point, obviously you can't shape policy based on a survey of every American asking them how they would react to this policy! You need to create models based on assumptions and aggregates. And so far, the Keynesian models have proven to be a lot more reliable than any others. THIS IS WHY KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS IS CALLED MAINSTREAM ECONOMICS AND AUSTRIAN ECONOMICS IS TAUGHT IN A HAND FULL OF CLOWN COLLEGES!
durhamdf 9 months ago
@durhamdf just because a school of thought is predominant, doesn't prove its correctness. (see "flat earth") Austrians don't focus as much on the "economy as a whole" because this is almost always an unscientific and ultimately meaningless approach. Aggregation is necessary if you think of society as a machine to be scientifically managed. Unfortunately for this approach, the nominal monetary sum of billions of subjective economic decisions is not an objective, scientifically relevant number.
gergenheimer 9 months ago
@gergenheimer Comparing how academia works today to the bullshit mysticism that took place before the scientific revolution is retarded and to quote you "meaningless". It doesn't prove beyond all possible doubt that Keynesian economics is right and Austrian Economics is a craxkpot theory but it is a pretty damn good indication that this is the case! If Austrian Economic theory was at all useful it would be taught at more schools period. (contd)...
durhamdf 9 months ago
@durhamdf The question you need to ask yourself is "To whom is Keynesian economic theory most 'useful'"? The belief that the economy is just a machine driven by arbitrary spending provides great intellectual cover for the government and powerful special interests. Should it be any surprise that the Austrian School, which denounces government interference in the private economy, is excluded from mainstream, state-run schools and universities? Are you really that naive?
gergenheimer 9 months ago
@gergenheimer lol what are you talking about? All of the most powerful special interests represent the interests of the most powerful corporations. THOSE CORPORATIONS ALL LOBBY FOR WHAT ARE BASICALLY AUSTRIAN POLICIY I.E. LESS GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT AND REGULATION! Secondly your argument that this is a government conspiracy to keep this out of universities is fucking retarded seeing as how the only schools that teach Austrian economics are some community colleges. Private schools don't either!
durhamdf 9 months ago
@durhamdf HA! So you swallowed the Junior High School civics class myth that big corporations hate regulation? Regulations impose costs that harm small competitors more than the big corporations. Research the history of the railroad industry, the banking industry, healthcare, automobiles, etc. What you will find is that the big corporations lobbied for regulations behind the scenes, while publicly denouncing the regulations ("don't throw me in the briar patch!")
gergenheimer 9 months ago
Respond to this video... conspiracy has nothing to do with it - when you have a society where generations of the people are taught from the time they are infants that government is benign and beneficial to everyone - that the State is master of all it surveys, it should be no surprise when the culture adopts increasingly collectivist ideas and rejects any significant criticisms of government as "crackpot", because these ideas challenge the status quo of statist thinking.
gergenheimer 9 months ago
@gergenheimer That is a conspiracy theory, that kids are being indoctrinated at young ages to love and trust the government! That is complete bullshit and I think you know it. If anything, the culture that younger generations have picked up is a very independent minded distrust for the government. That doesn't mean that we can't understand that there are times when government intervention is absolutely necessary! You are crackpots because you are a tiny minority and your theories are useless
durhamdf 9 months ago
@durhamdf A conspiracy theory would involve a small group specifically directing outcomes - I'm talking about a gradual shift in cultural paradigms over time - it doesn't have to be directed by anyone or any group for people to be indoctrinated to think a certain way. The next time you go to a sporting event, and 99% of the crowd stands and chants while staring up longingly at the U.S flag, come back and tell me that our culture doesn't brainwash people to love and trust their government.
gergenheimer 9 months ago
I would point you to another crackpot with "useless" theories. When Galileo did his research and concluded that the Sun was the center of the solar system and the Earth revolved around the Sun, he was denounced as a heretic. The people of his day had all been taught from infancy that God made the Earth the center of the universe. The court scientists of Europe had created complex, convoluted theories and math formulas to justify the State/church position and Galileo was imprisoned fro life.
gergenheimer 9 months ago