@metridium I respect that you don't like captivity, and it's a subject that will never be resolved, so I'm not trying to change your mind. But just out of curiousity, why don't you spend your energy protesting circuses or somewhere where large animals (such as elephants) get treated truly badly with force and food deprevation instead of a place where, though you don't agree with it, at least the animals are treated well?
@KaliaRising I have stated in the recent past that if my love for the Ocean was not what it is I would likely be fighting for captive Elephants as the stereotypy behaviors sicken me. I'm in contact with several individuals fighting against Circuses and support them as much as possible. My fight is for Orca. If Orca are allowed to be displayed in the Parks the hope of them being protected in the Wild likely will not happen.
@metridium Why do you say that whales displayed in parks mean that no whales are protected in the wild? I work at a zoo, and I think of our animals as ambassadors for their species. As Baba Dioum said, "in the end we will conserve only what we love. We will love only what we understand. We will understand only what we are taught". Zoos and parks are a place for people to be taught about the species and, hopefully, encourage conservation action in their own lives.
@KaliaRising 2) Go to any SW Cultist channel here on YouTube and you'll be hard pressed to read, or view anything other than an interest in Captive Orca... how is this helping with Orca in the Oceans. You think a Zoo is any better than a Circus ?
@KaliaRising 1) It's common knowledge the Captive Industry lobbyists keep Orca off the IWC protected list. This "ambassador" idea is a pipe dream, you're implying now that SW is the conserver of Orca? The only message SW sends out is these Orca are here for your entertainment.
@metridium Hold on, before we go into your quotes, what I understand is that you are for conservation, and you believe that conservation can't happen if animals are kept captive. Am I correct?
@KaliaRising I'll try to be as clear as possible... as long as Orca are being paraded in the Parks then the likely hood of Orca being put on the IWC Protected list is slim to none. The very Industry that portrays themselves as "ambassadors" is the one that keeps the Orca from being protected... if you want a half dozen quotes just let me know.
@metridium Haha I'll pass on quotes, thanks. However, I'm pretty sure that if they were truly in danger, they would be put on the list. The thing is, so many animals are in danger right now. There are species that are extinct in the wild and their only hope is zoo breeding programs, such as the SSP. Anyway, I'm not trying to change your mind, just to figure out what your purpose is.
@KaliaRising 2) The very concept of SW being the saviour of Orca through an in house breeding program is ludicrous. My purpose is have breeding of captive Orca stopped, having Orca protected by the IWC, and see the end of the insidious Display Parks...
@KaliaRising 1) It's not about Orca being "in danger", the Parks will need new stock, where do you think these new Orca will come from? The Parks have fought all attempts for Orca to be put on the Protected list... clearly they're keeping their options open in the future. If you read the 1994 MMPA you can see the clever loop-holes introduced.
@metridium Oookay. All I'm saying is that the whales are treated well, and from what I hear you're not so much against captivity as you are for conservation, so maybe putting quotes about conservation instead of how badly the animals are treated would be beneficial. However, if you're going to throw more quotes at me and say I'm wrong completely, this truly is a waste of time. I respect your opinion and I would appreciate it if you would respect mine.
@KaliaRising The very concept of an Orca swimming circles in a concrete tank makes me see red... so yes I am clearly against captivity. Just as a foot note you initialed contact with me here... if you want conservation quotes have plenty of those too.
@metridium Yes, I know and respect that you don't like captivity, and that's okay. As I said, it's a moral issue that will never be resolved. I was just wondering about why you don't like it, not in intentions to say you're wrong. And no, I would not like more quotes.
@metridium Yep. I just wanted to let you know (after all that) that some of your ideas I definetely do agree with, such as anti-circus and the idea of conservation. Anyway, each side is fair :)
Operant conditioning, uses food as a positive reinforcer.
Satisfaction of hunger is
dependent on performing, This is not food deprivation
for a complete food portion is ultimately provided.
Food as a reinforcer reduces some animals
to little more than beggars. Their lives obsessively revolve around
the food presented during shows and training sessions. Patrons of
any captive marine mammal show can easily observe the animals
attention fixed on the buckets of food. Naomi A. Rose-PhD-2009
metridium 2 years ago
@metridium I respect that you don't like captivity, and it's a subject that will never be resolved, so I'm not trying to change your mind. But just out of curiousity, why don't you spend your energy protesting circuses or somewhere where large animals (such as elephants) get treated truly badly with force and food deprevation instead of a place where, though you don't agree with it, at least the animals are treated well?
KaliaRising 1 year ago
@KaliaRising I have stated in the recent past that if my love for the Ocean was not what it is I would likely be fighting for captive Elephants as the stereotypy behaviors sicken me. I'm in contact with several individuals fighting against Circuses and support them as much as possible. My fight is for Orca. If Orca are allowed to be displayed in the Parks the hope of them being protected in the Wild likely will not happen.
metridium 1 year ago
@metridium Why do you say that whales displayed in parks mean that no whales are protected in the wild? I work at a zoo, and I think of our animals as ambassadors for their species. As Baba Dioum said, "in the end we will conserve only what we love. We will love only what we understand. We will understand only what we are taught". Zoos and parks are a place for people to be taught about the species and, hopefully, encourage conservation action in their own lives.
KaliaRising 1 year ago
@KaliaRising 2) Go to any SW Cultist channel here on YouTube and you'll be hard pressed to read, or view anything other than an interest in Captive Orca... how is this helping with Orca in the Oceans. You think a Zoo is any better than a Circus ?
metridium 1 year ago
@KaliaRising 1) It's common knowledge the Captive Industry lobbyists keep Orca off the IWC protected list. This "ambassador" idea is a pipe dream, you're implying now that SW is the conserver of Orca? The only message SW sends out is these Orca are here for your entertainment.
metridium 1 year ago
@KaliaRising “The surveys we have conducted ... show that the overwhelming majority of our visitors
leave us without increasing either their knowledge of
the natural world or their empathy for it. There are even
times when I wonder if we don’t make things worse by
reinforcing the idea that man is only an observer of
nature and not a part of it.” President- The Zoological Society of Philadelphia
metridium 1 year ago
@KaliaRising In a study on learning at American zoos, researchers found that the
typical zoo visitor’s concern for and interest in the biology and ecology
of animals actually decreased after a zoo visit. An attitude of dominion
and mastery / control over animals increased in visitors, as did negative
attitudes toward animals (avoidance, dislike, or indifference). Naomi A. Rose-PhD-2009
metridium 1 year ago
@metridium Hold on, before we go into your quotes, what I understand is that you are for conservation, and you believe that conservation can't happen if animals are kept captive. Am I correct?
KaliaRising 1 year ago
@KaliaRising I'll try to be as clear as possible... as long as Orca are being paraded in the Parks then the likely hood of Orca being put on the IWC Protected list is slim to none. The very Industry that portrays themselves as "ambassadors" is the one that keeps the Orca from being protected... if you want a half dozen quotes just let me know.
metridium 1 year ago
@metridium Haha I'll pass on quotes, thanks. However, I'm pretty sure that if they were truly in danger, they would be put on the list. The thing is, so many animals are in danger right now. There are species that are extinct in the wild and their only hope is zoo breeding programs, such as the SSP. Anyway, I'm not trying to change your mind, just to figure out what your purpose is.
KaliaRising 1 year ago
@KaliaRising 2) The very concept of SW being the saviour of Orca through an in house breeding program is ludicrous. My purpose is have breeding of captive Orca stopped, having Orca protected by the IWC, and see the end of the insidious Display Parks...
metridium 1 year ago
@KaliaRising 1) It's not about Orca being "in danger", the Parks will need new stock, where do you think these new Orca will come from? The Parks have fought all attempts for Orca to be put on the Protected list... clearly they're keeping their options open in the future. If you read the 1994 MMPA you can see the clever loop-holes introduced.
metridium 1 year ago
@KaliaRising Marine parks have shown no more interest in conserving marine mammals' natural habitats than they have in educating audiences. In fact,
the industry has actively lobbied to keep small cetaceans, such as orcas and dolphins, outside the jurisdiction of the International Whaling
Commission (even though this would help protect these animals in the wild) because they don't want to risk not being able to capture
additional animals in the future. -WAF
metridium 1 year ago
@KaliaRising Many activists, scientists, and politicians believe that the IWC
should regulate the hunts and fisheries involving small
cetaceans. However, the public display industry opposes
this extension of IWC authority, apparently because this
much-needed oversight might interfere with the display
industry’s ability to capture animals for its collections
in various locations around the world. Naomi A. Rose PhD-2009
metridium 1 year ago
@metridium Oookay. All I'm saying is that the whales are treated well, and from what I hear you're not so much against captivity as you are for conservation, so maybe putting quotes about conservation instead of how badly the animals are treated would be beneficial. However, if you're going to throw more quotes at me and say I'm wrong completely, this truly is a waste of time. I respect your opinion and I would appreciate it if you would respect mine.
KaliaRising 1 year ago
@KaliaRising The very concept of an Orca swimming circles in a concrete tank makes me see red... so yes I am clearly against captivity. Just as a foot note you initialed contact with me here... if you want conservation quotes have plenty of those too.
metridium 1 year ago
@metridium Yes, I know and respect that you don't like captivity, and that's okay. As I said, it's a moral issue that will never be resolved. I was just wondering about why you don't like it, not in intentions to say you're wrong. And no, I would not like more quotes.
KaliaRising 1 year ago
@KaliaRising lol... fair enough, so we're good? Please feel free to inquire any time you want. Cheers.
metridium 1 year ago
@metridium Yep. I just wanted to let you know (after all that) that some of your ideas I definetely do agree with, such as anti-circus and the idea of conservation. Anyway, each side is fair :)
KaliaRising 1 year ago
cool
AtkinIsHood 3 years ago