Conversations: Episode 12 w/ Pyrrho314 - Skepticism and Perception (1-5)

[Censeo]

What? No, Darwins theory don't assume that all species want to survive. Those that pass on their genes are the ones who survives, no matter if they want to or not.

[TJae1]

thanxs for the plug :P... whooooo issss pyrrho: sound replies R welcomed.

[TJae1]

been lookin' over Ur stuff.. & pursuit... not 2 shabby..

[TJae1]

the pyrrho show... he's shy n' fussy.. b nice :P

[patternsinchaos]

I'm skeptical of anyone who will not tell me his name, yet is quick to (mis) represent the views of others, and insists on calling others by their channel names.

Does this person claim to be the reincarnation of "Pyrrho"?

This series significantly degrades my opinion of Holons.

No longer watching.

[CousinoMacul]

His birth name is "Jesus Kant" so perhaps you can understand why he wants to get away from that.

[TJae1]

pyrrho claimed it was, craig ferguson... pat.. has a pnt..

[CousinoMacul]

And what point would that be? That he's going to take his ball home and refuse to play because a YouTuber insists on being called by his YT handle? Patterns is just being childish. I have no sympathy for crybabies.

Also, I just PM'd pyrrho and it turns out that I was wrong: his real name is Augustine Rand. That totally explains why he refuses to give it out.

[TJae1]

why would U care.. unless Ur pyrrho.. the dude goes public... why not...

[CousinoMacul]

"why would U care"

Exactly my point! Why should patternsinchaos care? The fact that he does tells me more about him than it does about pyrrho.

[CousinoMacul]

Wow! Are you really that dense? Of course I don't care. I guess you didn't notice that the names I mentioned were both joke names. LMAO!!!

[TJae1]

contact Me when Ur sober or more honest.. pat has a good pnt...

[pyrrho314]

thing is, patterns did not appreciate when I gave his system the "what if it's true" treatment, it's not meant to be questioned that way, compared. "what if" is not allowed...

[TJae1]

pyrrho314 ~ if all things are questionable ~ why should U b taken serious ~ tell Us ~

[pyrrho314]

I mean I shouldn't.

[TJae1]

preferrd 2 pm it ~ U can reply here ~ if U couldn't ~ inregards 2 the "bury the hatch" issue ~

[TJae1]

pyrrho ~ why is it ~ I believe ~ Ur quite selective ~ w/ Ur heeding habits ~

[TJae1]

@pyrrho314 btw ~ wassup ~

[TJae1]

@pyrrho314 ~ so, what's Ur estimate for 1st cause ~ answer w/ your best effort

[TJae1]

good pnt... pat.. so U know..

[pyrrho314]

oh please... I do not want you to accept my ideas based on such a thing... you can see for yourself if it's a real idea, and what to make of it... or, if you can't figure out what to make of it, you are free to leave it alone, unless it's... wait... fascinating to you.

[TJae1]

"pyrrho" just showd up.. is it an account, club, or coincidence factor:

 What say pyrrho... will there be a simultaneous, mono-e-mono video, w/ inmandham, in the near future..

[TJae1]

pyrrho = now that U've done the Holon's show... what's Ur real name:

[TJae1]

pyrrho... come on, Answer that 1st cause question: U've dodged it, like obama does, fox news..

[TJae1]

~ pyrrho/ what's Ur name ~ how important is Ur talking-head hobby to U & why ~

[pyrrho314]

you shouldn't.

[matrixcmitech]

YOU GUYS ARE KICKING ARSE, TRULY

[thewolverineanalyzer]

science can't have any opnion on the spiritual world, only the natrual world.

[guitaoist]

amen, hence science is half- blind as emerson says

[PressureX311]

Couldn't you say consciousness is the tool that allows us to imagine what is imperceptible, and in that sense Wilber's magic or mythic stage of development or mode of thinking based on an ability to tell stories, imagine what "seems impossible", and create the drive for us to change our surroundings. And in terms of the moralistic qualities of spirituality, to have humanity effectively self managed. In reference to do to others as you would to yourself, sufi mystic principles.

[tyrbolo]

You are aware that the date on Darwin's books

is quite a few years ago, while his work was seminal in evolutionary theory science hasn't

come to a stop since then??

We know a lot more than he did about the

process and product of evolution.

[Nykytyne2]

Consciousness is a survival tool. I don't see spirituality that way though. I see spirituality and artistic experience as a side-effect or an epiphenomenon. A glorious evolutionary mistake.

[HolonsNetwork]

Seems mistaken to me to conceive of consciousness as a tool or trait. Consciousness would be the agent or thinking-willing being making use of the tools. If we are to understand biology in terms of functions alone (like Dennett), then consciousness has no role to play. Such a mechanical Darwinian algorithmic process operates the same with or without consciousness. From this perspective, consciousness isn't just a mistake, it is a genuine miracle. I think this avenue should be avoided.

[Nykytyne2]

I think consciousness has a function. Thinking and willing are very useful. Especially when they think and will in ways that encourage survival and reproduction. Which they do.

[HolonsNetwork]

Yes, you're right. But is it accurate to say that natural selection is the reason thinking, willing, and feeling exist? I don't think it is. It seems more like "surviving" life of any kind already assumes sentience (thinking-feeling-willing). Not that evolution via natural selection wouldn't refine sentience. But it seems a mistaken to claim natural selection alone is enough to produce sentience. Darwin's theory assumes sentience already.

[joevegan123]

@HolonsNetwork How does Dawins's theory assume sentience?

[joevegan123]

@joevegan123 Of course natural selection is the reason for feeling. Animals most sensitive the pain for example, will survive longer than those that don't.

Thinking? Again, this seems to be straight-forwardly useful for survival.

[guitaoist]

mistake? would you throw out mozart as an evolutionary mistake? why merely survive? let's live!! that's what life's about

[Nykytyne2]

No, I would savor Mozart as an evolutionary mistake. Perhaps evolutionary irrelevancy would be a better term. My point is that art, religion, and spirituality are all byproducts of increased intelligence and do not need an evolutionary explanation.

[CousinoMacul]

"My point is that art, religion, and spirituality are all byproducts of increased intelligence and do not need an evolutionary explanation."

I would say that being a byproduct of an adapted trait IS an evolutionary explanation.

[pyrrho314]

there is a bioevolutionary purpose I think, which implies it can be overtaken with intellectual understadings of that purpose (e.g. just as we can address the material reality of lust with prophylactics.

[TJae1]

Hey Pyrrho... how about the home tour while Ur at it... & what's the extent of Ur fan club, here @ Utube...

[TJae1]

pyrrho Ur a star... will U b joining scientology anytime soon.. just a thought :)

[CousinoMacul]

Check out the exchange I had with TJae1 over patternsinchaos' comment. :-)

[IceysMoment]

this is very interesting topic,

for me anyway!

its nice you have different topics for almost,every dicussion with someone!

[ElectronicPhone]

great stuff!

[TheObnubilators]

does he give out his first name ever?

... i could have sworn i heard a good darwinian explanation for the origin of consciousness latley... i think it was Ramachandran with his qualia thing..

[MaBu888]

... which Dennet don't buy. :)

[tyrbolo]

Dennet is a philosopher, Ramachandran is a working neurobiologists doing the experiments to back up every thing he has said...LOL

[MaBu888]

Indeed. Ramachandran mostly rules.

[ShiroZuku]

This discussion should be quite interesting.