God's Law Was Meant for Death, Not Life; Increased Sin, Not Righteousness

[NWOIS666]

Seek TRUTH not religion; religion will deceive you every time you submit to it.

[msskippy7781]

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. This is James 2;18. We keep the law as evidence of our faith.Faith without works is dead. It is not works of the law that save us but for us to say we have faith and not keep the law we are kidding ourselves. one without the other is useless.

[graceroots]

@msskippy7781 The 'works' that James was talking about couldn't possibly be works of the law. Paul said "the law is *not* of faith" (Gal 3:12). James wasn't talking about the law. He was talking about what a person believes showing in what he does. Hebrews 11 is full of all kinds of examples of actions that show a person's faith - and none of the examples are based upon the law. They believed God, and their actions followed what they believed. Again, having nothing to do with law.

[paulgem123]

@msskippy7781 James' letter was rejected by some anti-law churchmen. James was the head of the Jerusalem and the followers of Yeshua listened to him. We have to realize the Paul's letters on the other hand speak of two laws and this is where most Christians miss the contrary dynamic of this.

[paulgem123]

@msskippy7781 Galatians 3:10 for as many are under the "works of the law(Oral Law-could be church anti-law)" are under a curse: (notice the change) For IT IS WRITTEN, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things WHICH ARE WRITTEN in the BOOK of the LAW and DO THEM.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 The law that Paul was talking about has context all over the entire epistle. He is talking about the law of Moses, or what is known today as "the Ten Commandments." And indeed, cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things written in the book of the law (which had been transcribed by scribes), but "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law" (the law of Moses). It would be silly to say that Christ has redeemed us from "oral law" or "church anti-law."

[paulgem123]

@graceroots Not so silly. Because the curse of the law is not obeying it hence obeying it is not a curse this is absurdity. The problem with your understanding is you think the NT defines the terms in the OT. It is opposite ALL NT writing derive there meaning from the Tanakh (OT) Your understanding is derived by Marcionite thinking and stems from anti-Semitism. Deut 28 & Lev 26 shows the blessings and the curses. Moses said I put before you life and death, chose life!

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 I haven't minded talking things out rationally with you, and even putting up with your condescending attitude, but I take the charge of anti-Semitism very seriously and will not put up with it. If you so much as hint at it again, I will block you. In fact, it appears as if we're at an impasse (and have been since the very beginning). Our comments are there for anyone to see in the future and make up their own minds, but I don't foresee us agreeing at all. Farewell.

[jetblitz]

@msskippy7781 Christ brought a Higher Law when he walked the earth, 2 show how far we fall short and need 2 trust in His Finished Work only. Christ said If I ever had lust in my heart toward a woman I have committed adultery. If I have ever hated anyone I have commited murder. If my right hand causes me 2 sin then I need to cutt it off! I know that I should be missing some body parts. Should you? if so, then by ur understanding, unless u have never done these things, got work 2 do.

[msskippy7781]

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do It was the law that was taught from the Moses seat

[graceroots]

@msskippy7781 And Jesus said to the Jews in the Sermon on the Mount that their righteousness must *exceed* that of the scribes and Pharisees. Of course, as is revealed in the NT epistles, the law could not really produce righteousness. The only righteousness that means anything to God is His very own righteousness - which was given freely as a *gift* to all who believe. We don't walk according to Moses' seat. We walk according to God's righteousness - not by law, but by the gift.

[graceroots]

The scriptures that show that our lives in Christ (whether Jew or Gentile) are lived completely apart from the law are brought up and discussed in this video.

[graceroots]

Jesus was speaking to the Jews, who were under the law. Gentiles were never under the law, and were in fact completely excluded from that covenant. And then, an absolutely wonderful thing happened... the Cross. The law was nailed to the cross (Col 2:14). The Jews, who had been under the law, were told to die to the law in order to be joined to Christ. And the Gentiles, who had never had the law, were able to come directly to God through the blood of Jesus, completely apart from law.

[paulgem123]

@graceroots That's weird because that is not what I read. I see in Number 15:14-16 that there was always ONE law for the native born and those who are grafted in. We see Paul teach this in Romans chapters 9-11. I also see be studying that there are TWO laws in the NT but you have to know the history of the first century and Judaism laws which Paul did. The gentiles never had a law because they are adopted in the olive tree.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123

Eph 2:14-18 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

[paulgem123]

@graceroots Let me make a bold statement. IF Yeshua taught us not to follow Torah then he was NOT the Messiah. I know you mean well but, you disgrace him in your teaching. Grace did not start with the NT it is God's nature and He extends it to every generation. Do you know what the middle wall of separation is it is a rabbinic separation and customs of Orthodox Judaism not biblical Torah obedience. The governing body called House of Shammai.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 I know you mean well too, just as the Apostle Paul meant well when he was putting down the church for preaching God's grace apart from law. But then he had a revelation from Jesus Himself that changed everything. Jesus did indeed fulfill the law - but then the law was nailed to the Cross (Col 2:14). The life that we have in Christ - whether a person was a Jew or a Gentile - is a life lived apart from the law.

[paulgem123]

@graceroots You have been taught with many pieces left out. Things are right in front of your eyes but you cannot understand them properly. Is it any wonder the Yeshua sent Paul a highly trained Pharisee to the Gentiles knowing that they would easily misled? 2 Corith 11:4. The people in Corinth are like the western church of today they throw out what Paul taught in favor of anti-anything-Jewish teachings Just like Marcion, Martin Luther, and others.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 I think that if you would read the epistles in their entirety, you would see that there are many pieces that you are leaving out. The book of Hebrews - written specifically to the Jewish Christians to help them understand the NEW Covenant of grace apart from law - is very helpful.

[paulgem123]

@graceroots The are Two Laws at war with each other in the NT. see a video called "Hebrew Yeshua vs. Greek Jesus", also see my video House of Hillel and House of Shammai. Their is Two Torahs in Judaism one That was given to Moses which he wrote down and one that "they" say was given Orally called the Oral Torah. Yeshua NEVER spoke against what was written as He is the Walking Torah. He did speak against the takanot and ma'asim of the rabbis. Matt 23

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 Hebrews and Paul's epistles have really great explanations of all of this. I'll stick with those.

[paulgem123]

@graceroots You don't understand the book Hebrews or Paul's writings you use them to twist truth. I still love you brother and come to you in love and hope you will only investigate what I say because if I am wrong then God cannot say "you tried to keep all these commandments that Yeshua through away" it would violate Deut 4:2 and Rev 22:19 If you are wrong then you will be as Yeshua said in Matt 5:19 least in the Kingdom.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 I am not teaching people to "not keep the law." I am teaching people what the New Testament epistles say about those who are in Christ - they are *dead* to the law.

[paulgem123]

@graceroots Which law?

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 In Romans 7, as one example of many, Paul specifically mentions adultery and covetousness, so he is referring to the Law of Moses.

[paulgem123]

@graceroots If the wall of separation from the Jews and Gentiles/Christians came down then why are we still not ONE? Because of another Gospel one void of the Law of Moses that Christians preach. But there is hope as God ALWAYS accomplishes what He set's forth and many Jews and Christians are waking up to the true Gospel one where we love the commandments and LOVE Messiah Yeshua. Jews need their Messiah and Christians need the Torah THEN, the TWO can become ONE.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 That is exactly the opposite of what the book of Hebrews says.

[paulgem123]

@graceroots Some day you may decide to take your Greek goggles of and look through Hebrew ones to see a Hebrew Gospel and a Jewish Messiah.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 The law was a "shadow" (not the substance) of what was to come (Christ).

Heb 10:8-10

Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them"(which are offered according to the law), then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[paulgem123]

@graceroots Why were they a shadow? Because it pointed toward the redemption in which Yeshua sits as High Priest, the Aaronic priest died, they had to atone for their own sins etc.

Isaiah 1:11 says the same thing. Why? Because part of coming to sacrifice was you had to have a repentant heart which they did not so they were only going through the ritual not understanding it's purpose.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 The law was a shadow because it was not the reality.

And if people didn't come to the rituals with repentant hearts, it just goes to show that life can never come through law or rituals or anything else except the death and resurrection of Jesus.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 Rom 8:3

For what the law *could not do* in that it was weak through the flesh, *God did* by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin...

[paulgem123]

@graceroots Exactly, we are not perfect and we may fail in trying to keep written Torah but we can't say we throw it out because Yeshua kept it and we are to walk as he walked. Yes, God in the flesh of Yeshua kept the written Torah and expounded the teachings to us and they are to be written on our hearts and by faith we are saved and by our walk we are blessed. If we chose to walk contrary to His Torah then We put ourselves against Him which we don't want to do.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 Rom 7:7-12

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

The law is holy and just and good... but man was not! All that the law could do, being good and just and holy, was to condemn man and produce death. That is the very reason why man had to die to the law in order to have life – in Christ.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 We don't "throw it out."  Rather, we had to die to it in order to have life.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 I have to get going now. Thank you for this pleasant exchange. It's really refreshing, even though we haven't agreed, to have a civil discourse about these things.

[paulgem123]

@graceroots The same thing is happening with people who refuse to understand the Yeshua said I DID NOT COME TO OBOLISH THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS, I am NOT come to destroy but to fulfill. You emphasize fulfill in the wrong context. In Hebrew though it means to carry out as to fulfill what his Father told him to do. BECAUSE all has not been fufilled and heaven and earth is still here. There is no peace yet, he has not come back yet and so on and on.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 Jesus did indeed fulfill the law, and did not Himself abolish it. But since it could never produce the very thing that God willed for us - LIFE - and because it was "against us" and "contrary to us" (Col 2:14), it had to be "taken out of the way," "wiped out" and "nailed to the cross."

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 Jesus says, "Behold I have come to do Your will." That "will" was not law, but rather was the shedding of His blood for mankind. The law imputed sin to man... that was the law's job and purpose. But Jesus came and became the *propitiation* for sin. That was God's will. God's will for man was that they may have Life. Law could never and can never produce life. The only Life is found in Christ (who is eternal).

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 Paul told the Jews that they had to die to the law in order to be joined to Christ. He himself said that he had died to the law, and now his life was found solely in Christ. "The commandment, which I thought would bring life, I found to bring death." He had to get out of the ministry of death and condemnation (the law) in order to enter into the ministry of reconciliation - Christ's death and resurrection - which is the only Life mankind can truly have.

[graceroots]

@paulgem123 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

NKJV

This NEW "man" is of Christ, not of law. It is one *new* man that has been made from the two (Israel and Gentiles), not by law, but rather by the law having been abolished in Christ's flesh.

[msskippy7781]

Matthew 23 v3. Jesus commanded us to observe and do all that was bid us to observe from Moses' seat. We are commanded to walk like Jesus did and he kept the Law.

[paulgem123]

@msskippy7781 Amein to that! If Yeshua is the WORD meaning every single letter of both the NT and OT then we cannot do away with him and say we follow him. If we do then we might be following another Messiah 2 Corinth 11:4 which Paul warned us of.

[PlatypusCarnival]

This helped me a lot! Thank you!