Shroud of Turin. Science from Rome / Vatican / Pope / Ewtn

[LowresTV]

but this is a big business. Anyone that writes about this, claiming that is true, will sell a lot. People are desperate to believe.

[LowresTV]

It is fake. No one with a bit of info believes this fake.

[creamone]

You guys still believe the shroud is real after being confirmed it's a fake. Christians really have a problem with carbon dating technology. We can put a man on the moon, send robot rovers millions of miles away to Mars, perform complex brain surgeries, build super computers that can process trillions & trillions of bits of information per second, but the majority of scientist have a problem of calculating a shroud using carbon dating technology. Stop lying for Jesus already. Please!

[opencurtin]

@creamone The carbon dating was done on a part of the cloth that was added after due to damage , this is the most studied artifact in history and they still have no answer how it got there , the scientists who have studied it vary from being jews to agnostic , but they still admit to not knowing what force of nature produced the image it is so perfect in its trigonometry .

[creamone]

@opencurtin "Pre-treatment methods should get rid of the contamination," says Dr Cook, a professor of environmental geochemistry and a carbon dating expert. "The measurements were done by three really good radiocarbon labs. Cut & paste this link and read entire article. //news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/­magazine/8615029.stm

[opencurtin]

@creamone Yeah but science still cant prove how it was made and they messed up the carbon dating because that part of the cloth was cotton .

[johndeweb]

Cool!

[wolfmagic72]

The first born~ Hebes:)

[OriginNubian]

YOUTUBE: RA UN NEFER AMEN

[OriginNubian]

also to point out europeans learned to read, write, theoriorize, philosophize, an art, mathmatics in the rennasance era by my ancient egyptiians after alexander the great ptolomy I lagy dynasty forced the greek language on to the egyptian people therefor adopting egyptian phonetic alphabet... phoenicians is false... can only be used in biblical an false historic literature...

[OriginNubian]

YOUTUBE: WALTER WILLIAMS EURO MANS RELIGION... NOTHING MORE THAN FACTS AND REFRENCES THAT CAN BE RESEARCH... SO FAR 99.9% ON POINT HIS BOOK: THE HISTORICAL ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY

NOTE: THIS IS NOT WALTER E. WILLIAMS(TWO WALTER WILLIAMS)

[earthangelrojanie]

two side of the coin one is reality ( science) and fictional ( religion or faith the irrational reasoning ) ^^

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@earthangelrojanie yet the first proves the second!

[luettem]

The bible says that Jesus was so beaten, he no longer looked human, and His beard was ripped from His face, READ the bible.

[202rickh]

@luettem Just curious, sincerely...where does the Bible say that Christ's beard was ripper from his face?

[luettem]

@luettem Is.53:7 "I gave my back to those who stike Me, and My cheeks to those who pluck out the beard--He was actually beaten to the point of not looking human. This is not Christ. But you will see Him shortly, Prophecy says the generation that see's Israel become a nation again, is the Last One before Tribulation. God pinned 1948 over two thousand years ago. be ready

[lizazoon]

@luettem Scare-mongering bullshit.

[luettem]

@lizazoon Hi Liz-We have been dancing for a long time, but have a suggestion, Watch Demon on my Shoulder, Slits on my Eyes, you tube- (if you can) Dont waste the time to tell me it isnt real, I have seen it myself in other circumstances...you may not be allowed to, because of your chains. Good luck

[lizazoon]

@luettem If I want to watch nonsense, sir, there is plenty on Youtube. Evidence,, reason, common sense, logic. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[luettem]

@lizazoon liz-The entire Total reason you cannot watch it, is this. Satan has you bound in the Chains of Sin and Death, you can no more think for yourself or act for yourself then someone in a Cuban prison. You cannot be allowed to know the Truth or the thing that imprisions you. I knew you could not see it, testing one, two, three

[ThePrayerHotline]

How come nobody is talking about the test that a group of scientist perfrorm on the shroud. It was found out to be made from an image from blood of an animal and not human, when the keepers of the shroud heared that the results were unfavorablefor them they banned further testing and media blockout followed

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@ThePrayerHotline actually the tests showed it is human blood AB, so where on earth are you getting your info?

[ThePrayerHotline]

@6MemoryOfForever9 Thank you for your comment friend. Please let me know if you are commenting as a catholic or somebody from the scientific point of view, or both.

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@ThePrayerHotline I am talking as a Catholic who has a great respect for science, and often looks towards it for answers, as well as faith.... the blood tests were a HUMAN MALE, blood type AB, but the DNA was very damaged.... I am just wondering, where did you hear or read that it was animal? because all scientific reports say it is really human!

[lizazoon]

@6MemoryOfForever9 Now we have the DNA and the blood type of god. LOL

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@lizazoon He was made man, I EXPECT TO HAVE EVERYTHING HUMAN FROM HIM!

[ThePrayerHotline]

@6MemoryOfForever9 Oh its not a scientific source of information but a respected magazine

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@ThePrayerHotline well, even CNN, BBC, Psychology..everything can be biased!! (yes, even religion), but the scientists who actually studied it, not some magazine, say it is 100% human blood! ^_^

[ThePrayerHotline]

@6MemoryOfForever9 ah dont forget that scientist could be biased too. Have you heard about nuclear scientist saying the LHC is perfectly safe and theres only o.o2 chance that it will produce the strangelets that causes super nova. Now theres a leak documents that its actually 70 % something and it will operate next month. It even has an equipment that specifically made because they are sure it will produce that strangelets. continued...

[ThePrayerHotline]

@6MemoryOfForever9 In their eagerness to study exotic particles of matter, they lied so they could have the LHC operating next month. Unless of course the scientist you mentioned are true christians, they would not manipulate the study of the shroud to arrive at a desire result. even if those scientist are christians we could not be sure if they really are because christians are so infiltrated nowadays that even those who were trying to stop christianity before are now known as christians.

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@ThePrayerHotline no, those scientists are bought by money in order to be able to be granted what they want, allowed to do research, etc.... but I don't think that Jewish, Atheist, and Christians who are against icons and images, would say a lie like that, all agreeing on the same one, all of them respectable scientists...many of them are against the idea that Jesus existed, so why would they come say that yes He did, and there is proof? ^_^

[dashan091]

@6MemoryOfForever9 The myth of jesus' existence -Another atheist delusion? Ask any ancient history professor at any eminent university in the world and they all agree that there is not the slightest doubt as the the authenicity of the historicity of Jesus. There a dozen non-biblical sources that corroberate the New Testament. But not let the facts get in the way of your cynical, bigoted & godless worldview.

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@dashan091 what? what are you talking about? haha I'm Catholic? wait could you point the comment where I said "myth of Jesus" cause I can't find it! thanks! hahaha I obviously should change the way I speak...sorry if I offended you, but I am Christian, you can see my comments above defending the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin.

[OriginNubian]

@6MemoryOfForever9 europeans named: moses maimodes, desiderius erasmus, are tha authors to old an new testaments(they wrote tha bible) durring tha rennaisance era... judaism was authored by rashi in tha 1500... wikipedia those names for starters...

[OriginNubian]

@dashan091 hows that when tha authors of these so called holly books was written by moses maimodes AND LATER DESIDERIUS ERASMUS a homosexual. rashi author tha talmud in 1500 therfore christianity was before judaism... but all these europeans wrote these text after 1400 in tha rennaisance era... tha fist bible didnt come out till 1465... AMERICA HAS THA GREATEST COLLEGES WE HAVE ECONOMIST THAT GRADUTE WITH HONORS... OK... SO WHY IS OUR COUNTRY IN A 14 TRILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT?

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@OriginNubian well, for sm1 who really believe the Bible was written in 1465, you are so hopeless that I won't even try first aid with you! SERIOUSLY? Even Richard Dawkins knows the different Gospels were written around 150 after Jesus's death. and Guess what, the Dead Sea Scrolls, who are ooooooooolder than 1465 years old, contain parts of both the Christian and the Jewish Bible, which existed back then ... so grow the hell up. don't bother replying before taking a Logic 101 course first!

[OriginNubian]

@6MemoryOfForever9 lol your surprised!!! sorry to burst your bubble but the first printing press removable print wasnt invented till 1400's by Guttenberg... so yes THE BIBLE WASnt WRITTEN till 1400's yes they deity scrolls has no evidence what so ever... moses maimodes is author of moses the character in the bible... desiderius erasmus a homosexual wrote john paul matthew corithians etc... these are your authors to your fairytale stories....

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@OriginNubian do you even have enough brain cells to realize there is a difference between PRINTING and WRITING!??? the Bible was WRITTEN loooong before it was PRINTED with the Guttenberg first printing machine. You are hopeless! why did you leave primary school?

[OriginNubian]

@6MemoryOfForever9 i have enough braincells to know the first forms of writtings were actually pictures pictographs than came hieroglyphics by Africans(Ancient EgyptianAfrican)... and your western civilization learning system obviously has failed and taught people like you to believe in fairytales.... i left primary school cause it didnt teach me shit!!! therefor you inteligent doofus...

[OriginNubian]

@6MemoryOfForever9 why is it America has the best western civilized universities... we hand out honors in economy, psychology, sociology, but if you look at america 14 trillion dollars in debt an growing, more an more children psychologically having worst problems, sociology hasnt helped its in decline... sociology to our youth is gangbangn!!! where are our true teachers.... not tha uniformed thinkers but tha free thinkers who are not controlled by western civilization???!!!

[OriginNubian]

@6MemoryOfForever9 your right their were graphics before the printing press... but it wasnt by europeans!!! it was graphics by AFRICANS (ancient egyptians)... it was interpreted by europeans... an tha interpretation has been fabricated, made up, turned in to fairytales... thats why we have holidays that mean nothing but stimulus for our economy but we attach religion to our holidays...

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@OriginNubian huuuuuuuh, look, didn't the egyption used papyrus to WRITE... the hebrews came after the egyptians, so they had the knowledge of writing... pls save your crazy conspiracy theories to yourself, even atheists fucked up in the head admit the Bible was written when the Church and the whole world knows it was written, so pls, I really am not in for this weird crap! thank you! bye! seriously, bye, go away!

[OriginNubian]

@6MemoryOfForever9 Please point out where i said the Hebrews came before tha Egyptians? you cant... you know why? because i never said that!!! see the word ignorant is rooted from: ingnoring... thats why tha blind leads(teach) tha blind...

if you learn to read and comprehend correctly... read... The Dictionary of the Bible by John L mcKenzie a well known respected catholic Priest pg 432 reveals truth by this catholic honest white man...

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@OriginNubian and neither did I say that you said the hebrews came first, if you had any bit of brain cells, you would understand that what I meant is that writing existed long before the hebrews or the first christians, that is why it is possible for them to have written the Bible much earlier than 1400s when you think they did.

[JesusLorloves]

@OriginNubian wow so you dont beileve in the son of GOD and you deny him and you mock the word of GOD wow you relly r lost i pray that you see the truth before its to late look at the signs thir hear he is coming back soon so seek him now amen

[DeeStinger1]

The Spirit in me bears witness that this is He. I knew it the very moment I laid eyes on it. Thank You Lord. The image was burned into the cloth by the radiance of the Holy Spirit when He was raised from the dead. It can't be reproduced even with modern technology.

[luettem]

@DeeStinger1 have you read the Word concerning the apprearance of Christ? He was marred beyond even looking human, and His beard was ripped from His face. Gods Word is the ultimate authority. this person does not fit the Word.

[202rickh]

@DeeStinger1 So in other words "you've got a feeling". How is this supposed to influence us about faith?

[poundsand]

The carbon dating is wrong, because they took a piece that had been added to cover up the fire damage. Even the man that had declared the Shroud fake and did the carbon dating, later realized his mistake and spent the rest of his life trying to show he was wrong. I believe he is on youtube, so you can check it out.

[MrSoladam]

carbon date the pollen!

[20033716]

@MrSoladam Carbon date states that its dated at 300 CE

[boazandjiacinth]

@MrSoladam i know how innacurate carbon darbon dating is, forgive me if i am i wrong, it is only accurate to ,at best, the nearest 4 to 9,000 years... a DOCTOR OF ANTHROPOLOGY told me that, carbon dating, carbon schmating!!!

[alfaromeoash]

it is the image of jaques de molay, the last grand master of the templars. He was tortured by the inquisition and crucified on a door frame. The shroud was used to cover him and the body in its distressed state produes acids which marked the fabric. The shroud was given to the church by the family of jeffery de charney who was demolays co defendant and whos family were allowed to help demolay recover after being tortured. They noticed the image some years later. The church obviously knows

[MrZetterlund777]

@alfaromeoash Om... This is an interesting objection, but I doubt decomposition is responsible for the image on the cloth. The image is known to be a purely surface scortching of the very top linen fibrils. When you approach the cloth, the image fades away and becomes less appearent, and if you even so much as run a razor blade across the image, you'll lose it.

[MrZetterlund777]

@alfaromeoash Also, the body appears to be fairly new and swelling under the cheek is even appearent. Also, there are crucifixion characteristics that only match Jesus'. Such as being flogged and peirced in the side.

[helenw100]

@alfaromeoash - so he was crucified in the exact same way as Christ- crown of thorns, pierced his side, blood type matching exactly the facecloth of edessa, 2 types of blood found, blood of a dead man and the same mans blood while alive, pollens from jerusalem etc, etc. Let me guess why you cant admit that, you dont believe in God.

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@helenw100 wait, Blood when he was alive and then dead? I don' understand? did He bleed again after death? oh is it 1) from crucifixion 2) from spear?

[NilDesperandum777]

@alfaromeoash Jaques De Molay died in 1314. The Hungarian Pray Manuscript records the Shroud from 1192. The Sudarium of Ovideo revered as the cloth that covered Christ's face, has been in Spain since the early 7th century. It contains, human blood, type AB. It is the very same blood found on The Shroud Of Turin. And did I mention the way in which Molay died? He was burned at the stake. So how exactly does your theory (Or that of a few authors.) reconcile with the Shroud's evidence again?

[lizazoon]

See also, how carefully pope John avoids to authenticate the shroud.For the believer, what counts above all is that the shroud is a mirror of the Gospel. We cannot escape the idea that the image it presents has such a profound relationship with what the Gospels tell of Jesus passion and death, that every sensitive person feels inwardly touched and moved beholding it, Pope John Paul II wrote of his 1998 visit to the Turin Cathedral where it is housed.

[lizazoon]

Here is a declaration from a french bishop in the Middle-Ages.

Bishop D'Arcis continued, "Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination, he discovered how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it, to wit, that it was a work of human skill and not miraculously wrought or bestowed."

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@lizazoon why on earth didn't he mention HOW it was painted, and info about the shroud was present looong before that "bishop" existed, in drawings and letters and icons !!! how it was supposedly drawn was an important detail, but he didn't mention it!! for all I know, my mom could have written that letter!!

[Free777Thinker]

If you think a man created this shroud in a workshop in the 1400's then you are wrong. It holds secrets that are still being discovered up to this very day. This is a spiritual image created by a flash or spiritual energy. Even Einstein said there was other realms we do not know. the death of Jesus is documented in teh bible, and here it is on the turin shroud in all it's detail in a way they cannot be replicated by any man alive today, or with any science. What more proof do you need?.

[usrss]

actually, I painted the shroud....now you believe, huh?

[MrOxidizer]

@usrss people has been tryin to draw it and dont look the same...

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@usrss did you get pollen from 4 different countries? did you conceive the notion of photography 100s of years before it was invented? did you have amazing medical knowledge about how blood should exactly flow? did you by chance, without ever knowing about the notion of blood types, just managed to select a man with the same blood type found on the other pieces of cloth?? then NO, YOU DID NOT PAINT IT, NEITHER DID ANYONE ELSE!

[ozozoz44]

what ever we all belive, we are allways rigth because no one could ever be wrong. i could say that god dose or dosent existe and no one could say that im not rigth because there is no absalute truth out side the mathmatical world. its sad but true

[TheRomanGirl]

Dozerthedj

There is lots of evidence that Jesus existed. Go to the New Advent site and research the writings of St Ignatius or St Justin Martyr who were Disciples of St Peter & St John. We also have the texts of other 2nd generation disciples of Jesus. All their writings were preserved by the early Catholic Church and can be read.

Yes there are many Christian Denoms, -but there was only ONE Church initially -from which all others split. It can never change its views as Truth never alters.

[Dozerthedj]

With over 1500 different sects of Christianity in this country alone, each at times can be so entirley diffent, and in some cases very extreme. Then you have ALL the other religions on top of that. Who has it right? Billions of Different people with different, cultures, countries, Gods, all know in there heart that there religion is the right on and there God is THEE GOD. Who has really got it right? Maybe everyone is wrong? If one sect does have it right, Look how many BILLIONS have it wrong.

[TheRomanGirl]

Dozerthedj

There is lots of evidence that Jesus existed. Go to the New Advent site and research the writings of St Ignatius or St Justin Martyr who were Disciples of St Peter & St John. We also have the texts of other 2nd generation disciples of Jesus. All their writings were preserved by the early Catholic Church and can be read.

Yes there are many Christian Denoms, - but there was only ONE Church initially from which all others split. It can never change its views as Truth never alters.

[Dozerthedj]

thank you for that info! its still only hear-say. meaning no 1st person accounts. for example Justin martyr wasnt born till C.E. 100. thats 100 years after the story of jesus i dont see how this is proof BUT.. Thank you roman girl! i appreciate your comment! i will look inito it some more. Regardless of what i believe its always good to learn!

[TheRomanGirl]

The N.T writings are first person accounts. St John lived until the beginning of the 2nd Century. St Ignatius of Antioch was martyred between 98 & 117AD and met Jesus as a child/ Fragments of the Gospels were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls proving some were written prior to 66AD. Paul's first writings were written c35AD and the Last to be written was John who was younger than the others. They are referred to by St Irenaeus who was born in the first half of the 2nd century in his writings

[Dozerthedj]

1st off there is NO mention of jesus in the Dead sea scrolls. None. the new testament dates somewhere between 117 A.D. and 138 A.D so how could you even call that first person account? thats over a century after. And St. Ignatius was born around 50 A.D. so how could he have met jesus as a child. thats impossible. he wasnt even born yet.

[TheRomanGirl]

Ignatius of Antioch c50-100AD

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with Gods plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110])

Ignatius 3rd Bishop of Antioch -&Polycarp knew St. John. Like the Apostles, he chose martyrdom as proof of his faith

[Dozerthedj]

the dead sea scrolls date from 150BCE to 70 CE. a lot of the old testaments stories come from this. which means the stories in the Bible are not original. Just like noahs ark.. its a straight up plagiarized story from the Epic of Gilgamesh they just changed the names. If anything the dead sea scrolls support judaism not christianity.

[usrss]

...what supports Judaism supports Christianity.

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@TheRomanGirl how was Christ conceived by the "seed of David"??? that means by the seed of Joseph (descendant of David)...then is St. Ignatius saying Jesus is the biological fruit of Joseph's seed???

[usrss]

so you agree with lizazoon?

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@Dozerthedj yes, but the letters of Saint Paul for example are written by someone FAMOUS FOR FIRST HUNTING DOWN AND KILLING CHRISTIANS.... Saint Paul was like a Hitler suddenly converting to Judaism... why on earth would Saint Paul convert to the one religion he was trying to eradicate??/ either folly, or miracle!!

[ozozoz44]

rigth on! i couldnt agree with you more.

[usrss]

are you talking to yourself?

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@Dozerthedj ok, here it goes:

1) I should mention that I completely respect you, since it is the first time I meet a "non-christian probably atheist" person who discusses Christianity and religion with such respect, thank you!

2)about the 1500 sects thing: Imagine the U.S.A. was founded right? and suddenly, the X group breaks off, saying WE THINK THE ORIGINAL U.S.A. IS WRONG, and they do their own country called U.S.A., then group Y says: WE THINK IT IS WRONG BECAUSE IT SHOULD NOT CONSIST OF

[6MemoryOfForever9]

...OF NEW YORK, SO WE WILL DO OUR OWN BETTER U.S.A.....so now we have 3 U.S.A.'s!! but does that mean the Original U.S wasn't true? no, it means IT WAS true, but then separate groups broke of, several imperfect miniature copies of the ONE TRUE U.S.A.... this is what happened to the Church...it was One Church, Orthodox or Catholic (to me they are the same, just the NOTION of Pope differs), then Martin Luther, a

[6MemoryOfForever9]

Martin Luther, WHO WAS A CATHOLIC PRIEST, said:" I think the Church needs some reforms" so that is how the protestants came to be....what should have been a simple reform turned to a whole new denomination (instead of fixing the One Church, they decide to dump it and invent a new one)....As for the Anglicans for example, this is really stupid, King Henri wanted to divorce his wife, so the Catholic Church said NO, DIVORCE IS WRONG...so Henri decides to "invent" his own denomination...

[6MemoryOfForever9]

...own denomination, just so he could say:" divorce is allowed, so I can divorce my wife"...so WE HAVE A NEW DENOMINATION OF CHRISTIANITY BECAUSE ONE MAN, JUST ONE MAN, WANTED TO DIVORCE HIS WIFE!!!... Is it Jesus's fault? is it the Catholic Church's fault? no!!

as for other religions:

The Jewish prophecies have talked about a MESSIAH, A CHRIST (savior), ever since Judaism started!!! so Jesus is nothing new to Judaism, HE WAS EXPECTED!!! but some people didn't believe it is Him..

[6MemoryOfForever9]

They thought the Messiah will come with military power, and the whole world will "physically" change, but it was a spiritual change, a Savior from Sin, He taught us to live in perfect joy even if we are dying of cancer for example! HE WAS EXPECTED!!

Islam...well, I'm sorry, but Mohammad slept with a 9 year old girl, and although the Bible said THERE WILL BE NO PROPHETS AFTER JESUS CHRIST, Mohammad out of nowhere (HE WASN'T EXPECTED LIKE JESUS WAS), OUT OF NOWHERE

[6MemoryOfForever9]

...he says that he is the last prophet, and all of the Apostles were lying, and Jesus never died...although all historical evidence (Historian Flavius Josephus also says it), mentions that JESUS DIED, AND HE DID SAY HE IS THE KING OF JEWS, THE SON OF GOD (that is why He was given a CROWN of Thorns, cause He said He is king)....so out of nowhere this guy comes, invents stuff and says that EVERYTHING that history and evidence says, is wrong, and I am right!!

[6MemoryOfForever9]

and Mohammad killed THOUSANDS....Jesus didn't kill ANYONE!! who do you think is God? Jesus PERFECTED THE OLD JEWS, FROM BACKWARD TRIBES WHO KILL, TO PERFECT HUMANS WHO FORGIVE AND LOVE, and the mohammad CAME AND SAID:" KILL EVERYONE WHO IS NOT MUSLIM, AND WHO REFUSES TO BECOME MUSLIM" ...again, who sounds like a better God?>>JESUS!

[6MemoryOfForever9]

Hinduism and Buddhism: well, they are beautiful!! give up world, love God, pray....it is like Christian values, but Buddhism doesn't have miracles THAT ARE UNEXPLAINABLE BY SCIENCE LIKE CHRISTIANITY HAS!!! Buddha never said to evangelize the world (teach them about God, unless one wants to come to them), Buddhists say all religions are acceptable, because worshipping any God is worshipping THE ONE TRUE GOD...tell me now, how can you worship a murderer who slept with a 9 year old child, and..

[6MemoryOfForever9]

and worship someone who taught love and forgiveness, NEVER MURDER, and still they both lead to the same God?? this means the Buddhist God accepts someone who murdered thousands and had 29 "sex partners"!! (mohammad)...so again, it is wrong!oh and the way I see it, God has been preparing the world all throughout the history of the world, from multiple nature gods>to multiple Heaven Gods>>to ONE HEAVENLY GOD>>to His Son, the Saviour....!!! FIND ME ONE SINGLE FLAW IN JESUS CHRIST!! ONE!

[Dozerthedj]

@6MemoryOfForever9 I can tell your pretty passionate about your beliefs. No sense in arguing back and forth. I can go on and on about reasons why jesus is nothing but a story but its getting old to me. All i do is argue back and forth. so thanks for your input wish i could debate but ive lost interest in it. Im non believer and no bible story or any artifact can change my mind. its all bogus in my personal opinion

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@Dozerthedj oh, I thought you actually wanted to know, I didn't know you were trying to refute or debate it! I don't usually debate, I just give information as well, so you are right, let us keep it that way...

[6MemoryOfForever9]

and there are thousands and thousands of miracles which science calls :"phenomenon unexplained by science".!! watch these videos:

watch the whole three parts, it explains the scientific facts about it!:

Our Lady of Guadalupe part 1/3

then watch this : this is amazing, my aunt witnessed it!!!

The Miracle of Damascus part 1 (youtube isn't allowing me to put the links, it says error)

[Dozerthedj]

there was never ANY Empire at Jesus's time that felt threatened by his story and felt the need to Eradicate all knowledge of him. If this was true, than this eradication story of jesus would be known and that right there would be evidence he existed.

[frost122585]

No they executed him because EVERYTHING he was preaching was going against the old covenant. Even secular historians can understand this. And Christians were persecuted in Christ's time and obviously after, as it has been well documented. Plenty of people have felt threatened by Christians throughout time. People have died for their beliefs in Christ at near the time of his life. So some people certainly believed for some reason. Might be because he was who he is said to have been.

[Dozerthedj]

that still has nothing to do with why there is no historical evidence that he existed. I understand people being put to death for religious beliefs, i get that, christains of all religions were most succesful at that (crusades, inquisition, ect.). There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. ALL claims of Jesus derive from hearsay accounts. i enjoy a respectful discussion! thanks frost! & i respect your beliefs friend.

[frost122585]

There are plenty of historical events that we learn about from documentation after the time that it happened. You cant just dismiss out of hand my argument and explanation because you want to commit the gap fallacy of trying to say because we don't have evidence in one place that this means the event did not happen. You can believe what ever you want about what might or might not have happened but lack of perfect evidence is an argument I think is given too much weight.

[frost122585]

Of course I respect your skepticism as well- I just think you need to separate a healthy skepticism and lack of ideal historical evidence, from some kind of foil or proof against the historical existence of Jesus. Then whether was divine or not is another question all together that one more or less has to weigh spiritually as well as intellectually. Neither his existence as a man, nor his divinity will be proven or disproved by a lack of ideal evidence.

[Dozerthedj]

correct but those are some HUGE claimes being made about jesus, HUGE. All claims derive from hearsay accounts. And all things documents about him never came about till many years after his supposed life. I can only assume you believe because you want to and because you have faith in his story. Im more skepticle and realize the HUGE lack of evidence. and the striking similarity of jesus's virgin birth, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection (easter) to many of other gods before him.

[frost122585]

Well you are making the classical "huge claims require huge evidence" argument. And in most cases you are absolutely right. But as Pascale accurately inferred, the big "IF", as in if Christ did exist and was the Messiah, is so big an if that it warrants a certain amount of attention and faith right off the bat. As an analogy...

[frost122585]

if I told you that you could have 1 billion dollars if you swam across a giant body of water risking your life- you might well try it because of the risk reward. Faith has more to do with choice than knowing. An educated guess does does not mean that you making it across will become a reality- but if it is possible then faith is something worth personally considering.

[Dozerthedj]

well put frost. But as you said before i am not requiring huge evidence nor lookng for proof that Jesus was god in the flesh. Thats impossible. All i want is some minor detailed information that this man existed at all. No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. ALL information comes decades after his life on earth. So i would say its safe to say your relying on faith more than evidence?

[Dozerthedj]

and relying on faith is fine! nothing wrong with that my family are good christians and i was raised one. my girlfriend is a christian as well but i do say i am making her think outside the box. im not against Christianity, im open to any real information that may arise about jesus. At this point i just want to know if he really did exist even just as a person. Ive searched and ive found nothing, OPEN TO ANY INFO

[frost122585]

in John 20 regarding the doubting Thomas when Christ appears to him after his resurrection and says:

"Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Everyone struggles with issues of great faith. You are no different.

[Dozerthedj]

i hear what your saying frost! I just see them all as stories. Stories without authors, stories at many times that contradict each other, you mentioned before about Jesus's geneology, Matthew 1:1-18, Luke 3:23-38. Which one is correct? They arent the same. I hear totally what you are saying though. And many thanks for the (mature and respectful) discussion.

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@Dozerthedj even the Jews believe He existed!!! just thought of Him as a rebel, not the Son of God (well the Jews who killed Him, not the ones who followed Him)!! there is so much artifacts, archeology to support His existence... especially in Israel!!! I am reading a book called The Letter and the Scroll, it has soooooo much proof!

[Dozerthedj]

and please dont confuse my questions as being mean. Or trying to disprove your beliefs. My family is christian, my girlfriend is christian, i just happen to not believe in it. and i would like any helpful answers to my questions. :) I come in peace. ps. Please if anyone answers do not list Josephus as a historical account, for obvious reasons.if you dont know what im talking about do a little research im sure you will understand what i mean. thank you!

[Dozerthedj]

instead of people trying to disprove jesus, i think people should try to prove jesus. Using things other than the bible. Put that book aside and see how hard it is. Why isnt jesus in history books? why is there no mention of him in the dead sea scrolls? im not debating im just asking for more proof. Not looking to go the "open your heart route" looking for real evidence. why is his birth and crucifixion story almost identical to many gods before him? i think these are fare questions right?

[frost122585]

The sea scrolls offer circumstantial evidence for Jesus because they contain the prophesy of the coming messiah before Jesus was historically recorded to have come. This shews that Jesus was not a convenient story made up on the spot but was truly prophesied about many years before he is said to have lived. The main reason why there is little historical recording of Jesus during his actual time on earth was because people were killed for believing in him. All of the apostles were martyrs.

[Dozerthedj]

just to historically documenting someone is very different than worshiping someone. even the bible has no insight to all the other years of jesus life before he was 30. Tyants, foes, other false messiahs and criminals were historically documented jesus would have been no acception.

[frost122585]

The New Testament is very accurate regarding the facts. Sources outside of the Bible that confirm Christs historical existence include Cornelius Tacticus Annals written in 52AD. These mention the Christian martyrdoms. Obviously no historical account is going to suggest Christs divinity except for the Gospels because they are the exact documents that exist for this and written by those who believed in him. Only faith can establish Christ as who he said he was- outside of the scriptures.

[suckafreecitay]

I have noticed a lot of people try to disapprove Jesus existence in this world. Open up your hearts he is here and he has nothing more that just to show people the light.

[HazlePapi212]

The blind is every where it was for told the downfall of the church which " is"us.

[Dozerthedj]

um no. why would i be afraid of the shroud of turin? i dont have an emotional need to disprove anything im just debating man. And again what is there to be afraid of? you? NO. a cloth? NO -

[HazlePapi212]

Dont be afaid of the turin thats his mark to remember him like a picture of someone special.Just the thought of his love for us and remember to be good to others and let God be God in Jesus.

[Dozerthedj]

measurements taken of the image of the shroud man found that many of the features were overly exaggerated, not symmetrical or highly abnormal. Some of the questioned features included the face and head that appeared to be too small and detached from the rest of the body, the arms were significantly uneven in length, there appeared to be no thumbs visible on the hands of the image and the hair appeared unnatural, almost drawn in certain areas.

[sodakmonk]

People like Dozerthedj seem to have an emotional need to "disprove" the shroud, even if they don't know what they are trying to disprove. How frightening the shroud must be to them!

It's a foreshortened image like a photo, yet is not a photo. Size & symmetry judgments mean little until the process that formed the image is known. It is still unknown. The issues mentioned about the face and thumbs have been studied in great detail and published in more than a few books.

[admoonhermiz]

then questios now where is jesus?? why he never come back?? we ben waiting 2000 years, and still nothing??? why??? he never come back??????????????

[playerx2006]

He is sitting on the Right hand of GOD. He is coming back there a signs of it that are crystal clear. You just have to open your eyes and look and you will see.

[cometojesus1]

He is Comming real soon , we are the last Generation before his return

[dav924]

the thunder sound effects at the end of this clip are so annoying.

[rickhamlet]

LOL

[Albanianwarrior23]

too 2006..... you Muhammedens worship the pagan prophet Mohammed, who was choked in a cave by an evil spirit, the anti christ spirit..who denied JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE AGAIN....

Mohammed was so scared of this spirit, he felt he was possessed and wanted to killhimself for months, the spirit was the devil in the cave..........

[alkendy2006]

chapter 4: 157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

[alkendy2006]

159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

[biblenumeric]

SHROUD OF TURIN=188 JESUS OF NAZARETH=188 JESUS=74 MESSIAH=74 CROSS=74 HAND OF GOD=74 FINISHED=74 CONNECT=74 ENGLISH=74 NUMBER=73 COUNT=73 PERFECT=73 A to Z -- 1 to 26

[gibsongold1970]

an event horizon occured when his body

rose. they have found this to be true.

[ORIONCUBE]

Hi, these "mathematical" pictures represent consciousness probability waves (the basic stuff) -> quantum fractals.

[NephilimFree]

The cloth cannot be Christ's burial shroud. God would not create a graven image of Himself.

If you believe He would, you're practicing some other Christianity than what comes out of the Bible.

[modres]

No, you are incorrect. If this IS in fact the burial shroud of Jesus Christ and that IS His exact image, then it is NOT a graven image, but a PHOTOGRAPH. If I made something, said it REPRESENTED Jesus and worshipped it, THAT is a graven image. This is a negative image burned into the cloth. Because it is an IMAGE of Christ (if it is), it is NOT a graven image.

[NephilimFree]

It cannot be the burial shroud of Christ. Christ had short hair. The image in the cloth is that of a man in his 50's or 60's as well. Christ was 33 yrs old when He was crucified. One more time: jewish men in Christ's day did not wear long hair. This is a historical fact.

The Word of God says it is an abomination for a man to have long hair. Do you think Christ was an abomination to Himself?

[NephilimFree]

The Shroud of Turin cannot be an image of Jesus Christ. The man in the image has long hair. Jesus Christ did not. We know this because Paul states long hair is a shame for men, and Paul's words were inspired by the Holy Ghost. If it is a shame for men to have long hair, Jesus could not have had long hair. Thus, the shroud is not an image of Him.

[moonglow38]

The Jewish rabbi's wore their hair differently according to the instructions in the OT...you need to do a search on that. Jesus was a Jew and referred too as a rabbi a number of time in the NT.

[NephilimFree]

The scrpiture is clear.

1Cor.11

[14] Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

If nature makes it clear to us, it is true for all men, regardless of who they are. God did not make seperate laws for hair.

[moonglow38]

Have you read the Old Testament? Notice a change in some things written there as compared to the NT?

[NephilimFree]

Show me the law that changed it. Can't? Right.

Notice how Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, not destroy it. Yup.

[moonglow38]

Jesus did fulfill the law that no others could do. :)

[moonglow38]

Leviticus 21:5 5 The priests must not shave their heads or trim their beards or cut their bodies.

Leviticus 19:27 27 Do not trim off the hair on your temples or trim your beards.

People in leadership were often given different instructions then the others. We see that in the NT also regarding leaders of the church.

[NephilimFree]

The NT says it's a shame for a man to have long hair. Jesus could not have had long hair either then. Get over it. That's just the way it is.

[moonglow38]

Lets see...the NT wasn't written yet when Jesus walked the earth. It was a work in progress so to speak. Jesus was a Jew and lived by the OT laws that all Jews lived by. Why else would He say He came to fulfill the law? What laws was He referring too? The only laws are in the OT. The earliest writing in the NT was done thirty years AFTER Jesus ascended back to Heaven.. Go read up on CARM website, you really need some basis bible knowledge here.

[NephilimFree]

In the OT Jews had short hair. The few exceptions wewre not the rule. The nazarite ritual was not life-long. Afterward, the man cut his hair.

[moonglow38]

So it was possible then...

If you look at photo's now of Jewish priest you will notice the long ringlet of hair going down from the sides of their head, while the hair in back is short. They still follow the OT laws on how their hair and bread is to be cut. Since we are only seeing the long hair in front on this image its possible these are the ringlets and its shorter in back. I was unable to find a good picture of the back of the shroud to see if the hair was long or not.

[bubba85715]

Jesus also healed on the sabbath... another offense to the law, right?

You've got to understand that his teachings were not aimed specifically at your physical appearance. He wanted you to have a pure heart, and he wanted you to love others as he has loved you.

In doing so, our appearence to others takes care of itself.

Therefore, I doubt that wearing long hair or not is an offense to Jesus. I do agree that in todays world, men should have short hair. But it's not what saves you.

[NephilimFree]

Paul wrote this. It was inspired by the Holy Ghost. The bible is inspired scripture. It comes from God, not man. God therefore, has said:

1Cor.11

[14] Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

[bubba85715]

I am familiar with the word. My point to you, is that since you know the word as well, you should know that our bodies, while important, are far less important than our souls. Yes, God wants us to care for our bodies, but He makes it clear that our souls matter far more.

There is no way to know how Jesus wore his hair. It doesn't really matter in the end. Why is it important for you to deny the possibilty of the shroud's authenticity? That is a wonderful gift He left if it is true!

[bubba85715]

By the way, I hope you do realize that during biblical times, they did not speak the way they do in the KJV of the bible. Thou, thy, doth are all medieval dialog.

It is easier to get into God's word if you study versions that fit our current form of language. The message has not changed, but it's far easier to comprehend, and that is never a bad thing.

I know this is off topic, but understanding his message is far more important than memorizing and throwing around scripture.

[moonglow38]

also read Numbers 6 ...there are many others. Samson had long hair too remember? He got his strength from his long hair, once it was cut off he lost all his strength. Do a search on this under CONCERNING THE TRADITION

OF

LONG HAIR AND BEARDS

it gives all the OT scriptures on it.

[lisawonders]

His Name is Brian Leonard Golightly Marshall

[lisawonders]

Hope is Here

Yahshua is His Name!

Check the Math for Yourself.

[apex157x]

YOU POST OR GO TO HELL GOD

[hunterxl1]

sharki ur just a dickhead who thinks hes cool and smart just because u dont believe in either GOD or Jesus

[1aneeshsivan]

Face of our LORD!!!!