Texas Governor Rick Perry at Values Voter Summit 2009

[Frottagecub]

I keep telling everyone here in Austin, Texas... we are still in TEXAS... we definitely are far from being anything like OREGON and WASHINGTON... they call Austin so liberal and the capital of TEXAS but in all reality... that liberal or open mindedness is just a bunch of low keyed style conformists

[jamesspencerjackson]

I have to say that Perry is the greatest governor in the nation.

[jvforever72]

he seems like an eloquent, articulate, intelligent version of Bush:)

[AVoiceCrying33]

I think that if you are going to legislate morality on sexual matters, you have to legislate morality on legal, ethical, business, social ect. But the right wing want to legislate sexual morality but they are so in bed with big business that they don't want to legislate economic morality or social justice.

It is hypocrisy and the left are using it to their advantage to push people away from the church and their faith

[cdo4Jesus]

And the gay issue? That's Gods law (Romans 1:18-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Leviticus 20:13). That's all I have to say on that and the only law I need.

[SpeedyBruin]

That's fine in your home and your church, but not in everyone's government.

[cdo4Jesus]

Please explain how it is unconstitutional, when prayer was a HUGE part of school when our Founders were here and there was prayer every single day in the classroom? Correct me if I am wrong anyone, but wasn't that the was it was up through the 50's or early 60"s? I'm too young to know for sure .... And still lots of public schools still do pray in classes every day. Small town schools mostly. Maybe prayer in classrooms will help our kids, eh? I know what God would say. :)

[AVoiceCrying33]

The one thing I don't like about prayer in public spaces exspecialy in school is it can become prayer for show or forced or pressured prayer. Kids can be mean and if 10 kids are praying and one doesn't he is going to be signaled out and made to feel bad.

In Matthew 6:5 , Jesus tells us how we should pray And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men

[SpeedyBruin]

Exactly. Children are required to go to school and our tax dollars pay for it. We should not be creating a religious classroom environment that might pressure children.

[cdo4Jesus]

Perry is my governor too & I'll do what I can to get help him get re-elected. Uneasy about Hutchison and don't like the way she votes sometimes in the Senate.

To SpeedyBruin, in Texas, no child is required to pray in class. Lots of kids from very early to 12th grade perfer to or don't mind.  If the child doesn't want to/doesn't believe they don't have to. Sit there quietly until it's done. School prayers are not long.

With the way this country is going, we need prayer back in school asap!

[SpeedyBruin]

To be clear I do not care if children chose to pray and if they want to pray in school (so long as it's not during class time) you'll hear no objection from me. However, government should not be encouraging prayer in school and according to Lemon v. Kurtzman encouraging prayer in school would be unconstitutional anyway - first amendment.

[SpeedyBruin]

Wow. Did he just say that we should not have freedom from religion? He feels that he can use government money -everyone's money - to push his religious values on others? I do not feel that is appropriate and I could not disagree with him more.

[surfsalem7]

No he did not say that, he was saying that freedom of religion should not be confused with freedom from religion. He was saying that if those who claim to be tolerant of all views then they turn around and don't want to allow religious freedom, they are by definition, intolerant.

You saying he wants to use govt money is way out there. He never even brought that up in any way.

My Governor is a great man, and this was a great speech.

[SpeedyBruin]

Using state money to encourage children to pray during class time is not freedom of religion. Claiming that gay men should be arrested for private acts in their own homes is not religious freedom. In fact, it's quite bigoted.

[surfsalem7]

And where in the world do you get that from? Where or who in the heck said that our Governor has that on his mind???

[SpeedyBruin]

He was reported saying as much by the associated press in 2002 regarding the Lawrence v. Texas case. He called sodomy laws 'appropriate'.

[surfsalem7]

You are going back to 2002... 7 years ago... to say that of him? So do you have a link, with ALL the context of the law AND what he said? What makes you so sure that at the Value Voters Summit, again in 2009 (not '02), in his speech he is making claims that he is using state money for that, and thinks gay people should be arrested?

[surfsalem7]

As a matter of fact, Governor Perry said in THIS speech (that took place in 2009, not '02), "We are a free, pluralistic society and I agree government should not endorse a particular religious view.

But it is quite different, and I would argue extreme, to say that our laws should not be inspired and informed by the views of the faithful." What he is saying, in my opinion, is that he would rather the faithful lead by example, not force their religion on someone. How is that a bad thing?

[SpeedyBruin]

The full quote was "I think our law is appropriate that we have on the books." When he was asked about the sodomy laws in the state of Texas. I'll send you a link the the AP story.

[surfsalem7]

Either way, what does this have to do with 2009 and the Value Voters Summit? If this was such a problem, he would not have been re-elected in 2002, and again in 2006, and he would be unpopular right now (which he's not). I'm just wondering the significance?

[SpeedyBruin]

You don't find a problem with an elected official taking that position? You don't think it's hypocritical to talk about religious freedom and at the same time support a sodomy law? It's not hypocritical to support a government so small it fits into your bedroom?

[surfsalem7]

Without any spin, what does the law say anyway??? You can't just simply say that my Governor wants gays arrested for no reason and it's automatically true. Because if there is one (I actually know more) thing about my Governor is that he loves Texas and will honor any law that is made in the state he serves, so whatever it says, he will follow it. I find that honorable.

You can't take your interpretation of a law and make it someone elses.

[SpeedyBruin]

The law basically says any sex between men is punishable by law. Perhaps you think there is some sort of defense for this? It's interesting that you thumbs downed my comment before bothering to even find out what it was your governor supported.

[surfsalem7]

How are you so sure that I gave you the thumbs down?

As I said before, my Governor follows the law and whatever the law says he abides by. Whether or not he wants people arrested is not a stance I see him taking, he just wants the law follow. The fact that the law states that gay sex is punishable by law, well if it's the law, it's the law. From what I understood, that law was overturned, so I doubt he even thinks about it, ever.

[SpeedyBruin]

It's not that he upheld the law as governor. That is one thing. Rather, he publically stated that the law was appropriate and should remain law - he actively supported it. Furthermore, he supported a law that says exactly that - that people should be arrested for private acts in their bedroom. You can't support a law that says that and not be for it. It doesn't matter if you 'see him taking it' when it's already public record that he did.

[surfsalem7]

I get all of what you are saying, but I do not believe that one thing defines a man or his time in office. Even though Governor Perry's time in office isn't over (and I would argue that it won't be over come 2010 either) but his time in office as Governor of Texas has been very successful and while some people might not agree with him on social issues, if they are being honest, should agree that he has done a fine job regardless of his personal beliefs.

[SpeedyBruin]

It's not just on this one issue. Another example is his vocal criticism of the ACLU regarding the boy scouts.

[SpeedyBruin]

Furthermore, I feel as though public officials are given far too much slack for incredibly bigoted remarks targeted towards gay and lesbian Americans. Would you be cutting him the same slack if he had said something similar about a racial minority?

[surfsalem7]

For one thing, Rick Perry has NEVER bashed someone for being gay.  Not supporting gay marriage doesn't mean that he goes out and participates in gay bashing or things like that. He has a right to an opinion as well, and for that matter his opinion is in line with a huge majority of Texans.

[SpeedyBruin]

I'm not talking about his personal opinion. I'm talking about his role as a public official. I'm not sure what you consider bashing, but throwing people in jail for who they love is not something I support. Are you personally in support of that law?

[surfsalem7]

I personally don't know anything about the law, what I do know is Rick Perry. I've met him several times, and every time he is the kindest and he's genuine. Not anything like the type who uses his position to hurt anyone. He would never do that, it's not his style. I understand that most people couldn't say that about a politician, but Rick Perry is not a normal politician, he's a superior brand.

[surfsalem7]

Whoa whoa whoa, now you really expect him not to back the boy scouts, he IS a boy scout. What, are you going to bash a women for supporting women's rights now?

[SpeedyBruin]

There are plenty of boy scouts that speak out against the discrimination in the scouts. To speak out against this discrimination at the top levels of their leadership is not the same thing as 'bashing' the boy scouts generally.

[surfsalem7]

And anyone has the right to speak up if they feel there is discrimination in the scouts, but that doesn't mean that Rick Perry has to change his views just to make someone happy. He has to stand on principle, it's why we elect him because he does stand on his principles and he sticks with it. He doesn't sway.

[SpeedyBruin]

He stands on the principle of using public money to support an organization that discriminates? Those are principles you're proud of?

[SpeedyBruin]

Again, I wouldn't care if they were discriminating (I mean I agree with freedom of association), but not when they take as much public funding as they do. I don't like paying for them to treat others poorly.

[SpeedyBruin]

Furthermore, I didn't say he didn't have a right to speak. A right to speak doesn't mean he is above criticism for the content of that speech. Likewise, standing on a principle isn't an admirable quality unless that principle is just. I could fervently claim that there is solid ground beneath my feet as I walk off a cliff, but conviction alone doesn't make me right.

[surfsalem7]

I'm not responding to silence your criticism, just to correct it because I don't think you have ill intensions, I just think you are misguided in your insinuations.

I think you were fed the wrong information.

I'm simply responding to set the record straight.

[SpeedyBruin]

I wasn't saying that your criticism was an attempt to silence me. I was responding to you having said that he had a 'right to speak up'.

Which information have I posted that you think is flat out incorrect?

[surfsalem7]

That he is out there to arrest gay people, or that he uses state money to get kids to pray in school (I'm not using your exact words). What picture you seem to be painting is that he is ok with hate and pushing things on people. Governor Perry is far from any of those things.

[SpeedyBruin]

Well I don't know what to tell you. He said that he wanted sodomy laws on the books and that they were appropriate. I'd link you the AP article if you had friend lock disabled.

As far as schools I'll admit that's murkier water, but the person he put in charge of education in Texas is pushing creationism into the classroom.

[surfsalem7]

Of the link that I've seen of the sodomy quote, it doesn't have any substance. It simply says just that but I would not rely on it because of bias media.

If you have a problem with prayer in school, then why don't you take it up with the guy he appointed rather than going after Rick Perry and making up stuff about him? I mean, he appoints the person but he is not pulling the strings.

[SpeedyBruin]

You don't rely on what? Look at his direct quote, not the commentary - very hard to take that out of context.

You don't think he is responsible for the people he appoints to those positions? It's not as though she wasn't very well known for this position prior to her appointment. If you don't think he's responsible for one of the central jobs he has a governor (appointing officials to positions such as these) then we simply disagree.

[surfsalem7]

He's governor, he appoints people to do their job, he doesn't do it for them. He has bigger things to deal with.

He swore an oath to defened the constitution of the US and TX and follow the law! He follows it and supports the law, if he felt that the law was appropriate then why is it a problem? That is the way he feels, and it's not like he was saying, "By God we'll get that law back up and running!" if he did then maybe you'd have a case, but he hasn't done that.

[SpeedyBruin]

He couldn't put that law back on the books - it was deemed unconstitutional. What he did do was to vote for the defense of marriage act in Texas. This act likewise discriminates against people on the basis of sexual orientation. This was not that long ago and this law is still the current law of Texas (largely due to Perry's support for it).

[SpeedyBruin]

You seem to take very little of what I say at face value so the source of my last comment is the governor's own website.

[surfsalem7]

Good for him! I hope he keeps standing on his principles and doesn't cower to what people who aren't going to give a damn about him one way or the other, all they want to do is find things to beat his nuts about.

[surfsalem7]

Now that I know that you just take the stereotype of what a Texan is (from your comment down below), I will say good job Governor Perry!

[SpeedyBruin]

Perhaps you can share why it is you support the Texas 'defense' of marriage act?

[surfsalem7]

I looked it up on his website, and he supports marriage between a man and a women, he has that right so good for him for standing up for what he believes in.

Secondly, it says that the act was approved by Texas voters. Governor Perry signed it because he believes it, Texans voted for it and it passed, so that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

You're beef should be with the voters rather than the Governor.

[SpeedyBruin]

If the voters had voted down interracial marriage and he had signed it because he believes in it you'd still support him? That would simply be the way the cookie crumbled?

[surfsalem7]

Don't imply that he is racist, just don't.

But yes, that would be the way the cookie crumbled. It would be want the voters want, if people want to help shape society, they need to make their voices known by voting accordingly.

This will probably not surprise you to know that if Governor Perry does something, I will support him. He has earned my support. But he is in no way racist so this scenario would not happen.

[SpeedyBruin]

I didn't say he was a racist. I was pointing out a weakness in your argument - claiming that any right can be put to a vote and stripped away from any minority. I assume you disagree with the case of Loving vs. Virginia that found that exactly this, bans on interracial marriage, was unconstitutional (the same constitution you were just holding up)?

[surfsalem7]

Good, because I can't stand it when people imply anything that is false against Rick Perry, he's too good a person to be lied about (again, he is not your average politician).

My argument cannot be weak. When something is voted on, such as not allowing gay marriage in Texas, and it passes by a vote of the people. Then it is what the people (who care enough to vote to have their voices heard) want. If my argument is weak, then why do we even vote anyway if it doesn't matter?

[SpeedyBruin]

We vote because the constitution allows for a great deal of power to rest in the hand of the states and the people, however; that same constitution has many limitations on the powers of the government (even the people), which means that you can't simply vote on anything you like. For example, if you look at the bill of rights those are limitations on government such that you can't vote away freedom of speech, religion, and so on. Please read the 14th amendment.

[surfsalem7]

I never even said we just vote on anything we like. If an issue comes up a requires a vote, that is the way it goes, it's what the people want and I'm sorry but in Texas marriage is between a man and a women because that is what the vote was and that is what passed.

[SpeedyBruin]

You said that it was fine that same sex couples were discriminated against because the people voted for it. Is there another standard for law that you put forward to prevent discrimination towards other minorities when it comes to marriage, for example. You seem to think that a majority vote is good enough in the case of same sex couples, but not for interracial couples and I'm curious what the legal difference is for you.

[surfsalem7]

I don't even care, I really don't. I don't care about defending for or against gay marriage. I only join this conversation because you do not have just cause to attack my Governor over something that apparently is a problem in many places. Don't single out my Governor, he doesn't deserve to get attacked because of his beliefs. I can only assume he is not your Governor, so leave him alone!

[SpeedyBruin]

I'm just asking you to be consistent. Interracial marriage can't be voted down by a majority vote, but marriage equality for same sec couples can? I'm asking the very simple question as to what the difference is. I'm asking you, not about the governor at the moment.

[surfsalem7]

No, anything can be voted down whether it be interracial marriage, gay marriage, anything. And if it is, that is the way it is no matter if I agree or not, that is what the people want.

[SpeedyBruin]

14th amendment US constitution (sec.1)

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the united states; nor shall any state deprive a person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, nor deny any person within its jurisdiction equal protection of the laws.

The supreme court has long held that interracial marriage can not be denied by the government due to this amendment. Look up Loving v. Virginia.

[surfsalem7]

Nope, it's the way it is in Texas. Just try to come down and change it and see what happens.

[SpeedyBruin]

What do you mean 'it's the way it is in Texas'? The US constitution doesn't apply to Texas? Nothing needs to be changed with regard to this as it already applies to Texas. The supreme court clearly has jurisdiction in Texas and has changed laws there on occasion over the objection of Texans (Brown v. Board of Education for example). I'm not sure how you're still under the impression that interracial marriage could be put to a vote in Texas when long standing case law prevents this kind of thing.

[surfsalem7]

It's the way it is in Texas, we don't want gay marriage. That is the way it is. Handle it.

[SpeedyBruin]

What kind of a think is 'handle it' to say to people who are discriminated against?

[surfsalem7]

It was VOTED on, it PASSED that gay's CANNOT get married in TX! So if you are pissed, DON'T come to TX!

[surfsalem7]

Are you implying that he uses taxpayer dollar to help the boy scouts?

Because he does donate to the boy scouts, but not using taxpayer dollars, he donates through every profit (EVERY PROFIT) when people buy his book goes to the boy scouts. He doesn't earn a penny, he gives it all away. Now come on, how is that bad?

[SpeedyBruin]

I don't think you understood me. The ACLU came up against the boy scouts because the many federal and state governments support this organization heavily even while the boy scouts actively discriminate. Rick Perry publically criticized the ACLU on this basis. I'm not talking about his personal donations to the boy scouts and I'm not saying scouting is a bad thing for children to be involved with. What I am saying is that discrimination should not be publically funded.

[surfsalem7]

He as you put it 'publically criticized' the ACLU as Rick Perry not as Governor because again, he IS a boy scout. Now as far as the boy scouts discriminating, that is opinion because some would not see them as discriminatory. If the boy scouts are funded at the federal level, well Rick Perry is not a federal official for one, but where does the state funds supposedly come from?

[SpeedyBruin]

Actually not all of the BSA's funding comes from the federal level. Much of their support from state and municipal governments comes in the form of use of public buildings. Many rent out such office space for $1 a year because of the otherwise good reputation of the program. This in kind funding is still provided by the public and under the watch of the governor.

[surfsalem7]

So are you upset at all the governors?

If not, why go after Rick Perry? He is a fantastic Governor and has done so much good for Texas, and to have a beef with him over something like this, don't you think he has bigger things to deal with?

[SpeedyBruin]

I think discrimination is a big thing and I do think that it should be addressed everywhere. However, Texas has a worse history than most states on this issue and not all governors spoke at a 'values' summit, which I find highly ironic and which prompted my post. The family Research Counsel, which puts on this event, is the largest opponent of equal rights for gay and lesbian Americans in this country.

[surfsalem7]

That is a very stereotypical stand to take on TX. I'm actually, as a Texan, offended that you would insinuate that we are a discriminating people, and apparently you think my Governor is as well because he is a Texan. So everything he says, every principle he stands on is discriminating because he's a Texan.

This speech had nothing to do with gays, but since he is a Texan, then he is subliminally saying that gays are horrible.

[SpeedyBruin]

Where did I say texans are a discriminating people? I said that discrimination in Texas with regard to gay and Lesbian Americans has been worse from a legal standpoint that many other places in the country. If you'd like me to elaborate as to why that is (perhaps you are unaware of the legal history) I could certainly provide the basis for that comment.

[SpeedyBruin]

I was speaking of Texas law, not generally of all texans as you seem to be under the impression that I am.

[surfsalem7]

You wrote that TX has the worse history than any other, so TX history is just full of discrimination.

[SpeedyBruin]

Actually, I said worse than 'most' states. Give me a few minutes as I'm busy with other stuff and I'll elaborate.

[SpeedyBruin]

While about half of the country offers no recognition of same sex couples, Texas is one of only 4 states to amend there constitution to allow no such recognition. This was done in the same year their sodomy law was ruled unconstitutional -they were the first to create such an amendment. Furthermore, Texas was one of only 4 states to have same gender only sodomy laws. Lastly, Texas was among the last states to remove their sodomy law (when the supreme court forced the state to remove it).

[SpeedyBruin]

by 'there' I meant 'their'. typo :P

[surfsalem7]

This still will never justify putting all these grievances on the shoulder of one man.

[SpeedyBruin]

I didn't. I was explaining the context and history surrounding this. I only hold him accountable for what he has said and done.

[surfsalem7]

But what he has said and done is nothing he needs to be ashamed of, it's only a matter of your opinion that he is wrong.

[SpeedyBruin]

What is the justification for barring same sex couples from equal marriage protections and benefits?

[surfsalem7]

It doesn't have to be justified, it's just the way it is in Texas. You've already made the case that Texas is one of the worst when it comes to this subject so I don't think you're going to get far.

[SpeedyBruin]

Actually it does need to be justified. Laws must have what is known as a rational basis. That is to say a law must have a rational relationship to legitimate state interests. I suggest you look up this aspect of our judicial review process. For a good case example look at the 1985 Cleburne living center case. Fortunately, law must be constitutional so that unjust laws aren't 'just the way it is' in some places.

[surfsalem7]

It is justified in that the voters said no to same sex marriage. Handle it.

[SpeedyBruin]

That's not how our legal system works. Do you think that a) there shouldn't be a rational basis review as has been the case for all other laws in this country or b) this is the one exception to that universal rule? It would seem you would have to choose one or the other.

[SpeedyBruin]

You seem to be blindly and fervently defending something you don't even seem to be in strong support of and don't seem to have much knowledge about. This leads me to ask you how exactly you're related to the governor.

[surfsalem7]

Don't question my knowledge of my Governor, I've been a support ever since I could vote (2006), he was the first person I ever voted for and I'll be voting for him again. Just because I don't believe in the same things as you doesn't give you the right to say that I don't know about my Governor.

[SpeedyBruin]

You didn't answer my question regarding rational basis. Secondly, I'm not questioning you. You admitted yourself that you did not know what he had said regarding sodomy laws. I don't fault you for not knowing this or much about the legal issues and history of this. What I do find odd is how blindly you're defending this. However, for the moment the big question is my question regarding rational basis. Please refer to it above.

[speedyjosh]

cont.

I mean this is a quote taken from you: "I personally don't know anything about the law"

[surfsalem7]

I defend Perry, I don't really care about the issue.

I'm not going to answer anything about rational basis on an issue I don't care about, I began defending Perry against your lies, that is all I will do. I don't care, I don't care, I don't care what you think about gay marriage or anyone else. You were making statements about my Governor, and I point out that you shouldn't go after him.

[SpeedyBruin]

You can't answer my simple questions or give any kind of defense of discrimination towards same sex couples, but you support it?

[surfsalem7]

No, I'm telling you that I came on here in defense of my Governor that you blatantly go after (he's not your Govenor so it should not matter to you) and I don't have to do anything.

Don't even bother responded by saying anything that you just assume you know about me, it won't change my mind.

[SpeedyBruin]

What happens in other parts of the country actually does affect others (even in my state). I could explain with some examples if you like.

I'm not sure if I understand your point. Is it just Rick Perry that is above criticism or should no public official be criticized. The only thing I've heard you say is that I shouldn't critique him because he's your governor, but that hardly seems like a reason.

[surfsalem7]

Just Rick Perry.