2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
Ok people in bible can be immoral because they are "real". What about god? How is it moral to tell a man to kill his son, and torture a man without a reason?
If you didn't notice that this deals only with the Hebrew Bible (OT) and not a Deutero-Pauline Epistle, then you probably did not pay attention to what she said, or to the sidebar. The myths evolved.
By "can be immoral" do you mean "permitted" or "able"? People do act in immoral ways. When they invented their "God", they used allegory to convey moral messages. It was a standard strategy in those times. It's the same principle that's used in "George Washington and the cherry tree".
@musekiteer : You're right, but christians believe in NT as well. Saying "it doesn't say it's true in OT" means little to them.
Nonono, that's not what I meant. Don't you agree that she tried to reject the idea that people should seek moral code in the bible, by saying those are "only people"? So I tried to said "what about an all-righteous god, doesn't that looks like pointing to what we should do?"
But then I showed god sucked hard in morality as well.
I think we should not hope to get anything useful from the bible. Like Dawkins said, when we are thinking what moral lessons to learnt from the scripture, we are using our own innate sense of morality. It has little to do with the scripture itself.
I agree with Dawkins *et al* that we have evolved a sense of morality. We certainly do not need the Bible, particularly the OT, to tell us what is morally right. To claim that we do would be to deny the innate moral sense of the 5+ billion who are not Xian, and I think that's preposterous, insulting, and arrogant.
I find apologetic arguments from morality fatally weak. To be fair, they are all failures.
The point of the mirror was that misconceptions abound.
Most Xians accept the NT uncritically and cherry-pick the OT. Some groups of early Christians tried to adapt and borrow some of the messages of the Hebrew Bible to give their newly invented religion the legitimacy of an ancient religion.
She said a number of things: the HB rarely makes moral pronouncements; the moral dilemmas are interesting elements; and, modern theology makes claims that the HB never made.
I agree that the "God" of the HB is far from righteous or moral.
@dreamy2 Dude she talking only about the Hebrew Bible (old testament). I watch the entier class on open yale course and she never talks about the new testament. It's a class ONLY about the Hebrew Bible.
Nah, the HB is the highly fallible, internally inconsistent, often vicious ramblings of a handful of literate late Bronze and early Iron Age goatherders and their Greco-Roman copycats. To think that if their fanciful scribblings hadn't survived we could all be happy pagans ;[
You'd hope that people in the Space Age would be savvy enough to see through the blatant mythologies.
I don't give up all hope. Some bright theists who want the truth do find their way out of delusion. Most don't become obsessively deluded if they aren't indoctrinated young.
I met mind-bogglers before YT -- IDers on message boards. Their denial of science ticked me off so much that I gravitated here on YT. There are lots of nice, bright people in the atheist community, and I've learned lots. So, I'm hanging around even though creationist "thinking" drives me nuts.
I know... I'm just feeling a negative tonight. But you're right. This place is actually a breath of fresh air overall. Just seeing all of these really intelligent and talented young people makes me a happy man at times.
I'm in my rarely-visited mirror channel because, for some unfathomable reason, YT isn't letting me post from my regular channel. If you reply, please click on the "real" me.
I do understand your getting down if you've been dealing with a lot of political nutjobs. They can be even more obnoxious than the often-hilarious creationists. 2bs just told me that she's been accused of being a CIA agent for mirroring the "green" video. Sometimes it seems miraculous that the race survives itself.
Wow. That screen name will fool me every time you use it. I didn't know what the hell you were talking about at first and then I knew something wasn't quite right - my brain is off tonight. Maybe that's why I'm being negative. I think I got over the politics by making that video and getting all of the wonderful responses from you people. That's all I needed to revive me. That, and finally figuring out - it's the atheist conspiracy nutters again....
I think that most of us don't notice small changes like '-ier' vs '-eer' when they are at the tail end of a word. I chose the spelling to look almost the same.
I take it that "atheist conspiracy nutters" means lunatics who imagine that everything is an atheist conspiracy ...? Blaming everything on a conspiracy by some innocent out-group probably gives them the illusion of having a brilliant insight and spares their three neurons from overwork.
No. I really *wish* that was what I meant. I mean atheists, who see themselves as enlightened because they are bright enough not to be fooled into believing in "gods" and think they are being *equally* enlightened by not believing that vaccines cure diseases or that we landed on the moon *or* in the current case don't believe that the Iranians could be rising up to topple their leaders without CIA infiltrators egging them on and ready to phone the Pentagon for the air strikes.
The more I think about the particular atheists that my video today was pointed at, I have a hunch that most of them would fall into this particular camp of atheism. These are usually also the "survivalist" atheists who aren't going to get tricked into the FEMA camps, etc.
If it makes you guys feel any better, I'm a Christian theist who loves this video/talk and thinks it's truthful, extremely interesting and a necessary message
Aren't you living proof that you can read the bible any way you want to, think that you are part of the group that "really" understands it, and see what you read a confirmation of the truth of god?
If you think this video is interesting and important information, based on what or where do you obtain your information that leads you to believe A) there is a god B) that it is the so-called Christian god? Many Christians would say that you aren't a fellow Christian.
I doubt I understand it entirely (hence the helpfulness of the talk) and I think you can read the Bible however you want and subjectivity within theology will exist regardless. I happen to be Orthodox (who believe we are the true Church) but with my beliefs I'm not sure I have too much of a home in most Christian groups.
The Christians who would call me a non-Christian are generally fundamentalists who I have no attraction to (aside from maybe some debating).
Sorry, I didn't find this because I had been forced into the wrong account.
Ah, yes, the everything-is-a-conspiracy types who reject "God" along with critical thinking. There are also nutty types who reject mainstream "deities" only to adopt crazy, fringe beliefs such as Scientology or "Science of Mind".
I think that the bottom line is an inability -- or refusal -- to base their attitudes on correctly-interpreted evidence and critical thinking.
If our ancestors had all subscribed to the sort of thinking exhibited by these types, we would all be chipping at stone tools and wearing skins!
The intriguing question is why so many people have utterly bizarre beliefs. I suppose that, like those who never escape mainstream indoctrinated delusions, their cognitive errors reflect inculcation combined with attraction to notions that are different-for-the-sake-of-different.
Thanks for your prompt reply. This is why I count on you to be my Muse! Well, that and you are so damn clever - sometimes even when I wish you weren't. ;)
Well, I was being a smartass about your "promptness"! :D
Did you disagree with me on my Dennett comment? I missed that response. What video were we talking about that on, if you recall? Anyway, I never mind you disagreeing with me. Friends can do that.
narrator sounds like Sarah Palin except narrator seems to come from an alternate universe.
dannicus617 1 year ago
What are you trying to show?
flypejose 1 year ago
Bible never says it's not the word of god?
2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
Ok people in bible can be immoral because they are "real". What about god? How is it moral to tell a man to kill his son, and torture a man without a reason?
dreamy2 2 years ago
If you didn't notice that this deals only with the Hebrew Bible (OT) and not a Deutero-Pauline Epistle, then you probably did not pay attention to what she said, or to the sidebar. The myths evolved.
By "can be immoral" do you mean "permitted" or "able"? People do act in immoral ways. When they invented their "God", they used allegory to convey moral messages. It was a standard strategy in those times. It's the same principle that's used in "George Washington and the cherry tree".
musekiteer 2 years ago
@musekiteer : You're right, but christians believe in NT as well. Saying "it doesn't say it's true in OT" means little to them.
Nonono, that's not what I meant. Don't you agree that she tried to reject the idea that people should seek moral code in the bible, by saying those are "only people"? So I tried to said "what about an all-righteous god, doesn't that looks like pointing to what we should do?"
But then I showed god sucked hard in morality as well.
dreamy2 2 years ago
I think we should not hope to get anything useful from the bible. Like Dawkins said, when we are thinking what moral lessons to learnt from the scripture, we are using our own innate sense of morality. It has little to do with the scripture itself.
dreamy2 2 years ago
I agree with Dawkins *et al* that we have evolved a sense of morality. We certainly do not need the Bible, particularly the OT, to tell us what is morally right. To claim that we do would be to deny the innate moral sense of the 5+ billion who are not Xian, and I think that's preposterous, insulting, and arrogant.
I find apologetic arguments from morality fatally weak. To be fair, they are all failures.
The point of the mirror was that misconceptions abound.
musekiteer 2 years ago
Most Xians accept the NT uncritically and cherry-pick the OT. Some groups of early Christians tried to adapt and borrow some of the messages of the Hebrew Bible to give their newly invented religion the legitimacy of an ancient religion.
She said a number of things: the HB rarely makes moral pronouncements; the moral dilemmas are interesting elements; and, modern theology makes claims that the HB never made.
I agree that the "God" of the HB is far from righteous or moral.
musekiteer 2 years ago
@dreamy2 Dude she talking only about the Hebrew Bible (old testament). I watch the entier class on open yale course and she never talks about the new testament. It's a class ONLY about the Hebrew Bible.
B199aron 1 year ago
Interesting. One might almost be lead to believe that the bible isn't really the infallible word of god. :)
AncientAtheist 2 years ago
Nah, the HB is the highly fallible, internally inconsistent, often vicious ramblings of a handful of literate late Bronze and early Iron Age goatherders and their Greco-Roman copycats. To think that if their fanciful scribblings hadn't survived we could all be happy pagans ;[
You'd hope that people in the Space Age would be savvy enough to see through the blatant mythologies.
musekiteer 2 years ago
You'd hope. I'd hope.
Then we came to YouTube....
AncientAtheist 2 years ago
I don't give up all hope. Some bright theists who want the truth do find their way out of delusion. Most don't become obsessively deluded if they aren't indoctrinated young.
I met mind-bogglers before YT -- IDers on message boards. Their denial of science ticked me off so much that I gravitated here on YT. There are lots of nice, bright people in the atheist community, and I've learned lots. So, I'm hanging around even though creationist "thinking" drives me nuts.
musekiteer 2 years ago
I know... I'm just feeling a negative tonight. But you're right. This place is actually a breath of fresh air overall. Just seeing all of these really intelligent and talented young people makes me a happy man at times.
AncientAtheist 2 years ago
I'm in my rarely-visited mirror channel because, for some unfathomable reason, YT isn't letting me post from my regular channel. If you reply, please click on the "real" me.
I do understand your getting down if you've been dealing with a lot of political nutjobs. They can be even more obnoxious than the often-hilarious creationists. 2bs just told me that she's been accused of being a CIA agent for mirroring the "green" video. Sometimes it seems miraculous that the race survives itself.
musekitier 2 years ago
Wow. That screen name will fool me every time you use it. I didn't know what the hell you were talking about at first and then I knew something wasn't quite right - my brain is off tonight. Maybe that's why I'm being negative. I think I got over the politics by making that video and getting all of the wonderful responses from you people. That's all I needed to revive me. That, and finally figuring out - it's the atheist conspiracy nutters again....
AncientAtheist 2 years ago
I think that most of us don't notice small changes like '-ier' vs '-eer' when they are at the tail end of a word. I chose the spelling to look almost the same.
I take it that "atheist conspiracy nutters" means lunatics who imagine that everything is an atheist conspiracy ...? Blaming everything on a conspiracy by some innocent out-group probably gives them the illusion of having a brilliant insight and spares their three neurons from overwork.
musekitier 2 years ago
No. I really *wish* that was what I meant. I mean atheists, who see themselves as enlightened because they are bright enough not to be fooled into believing in "gods" and think they are being *equally* enlightened by not believing that vaccines cure diseases or that we landed on the moon *or* in the current case don't believe that the Iranians could be rising up to topple their leaders without CIA infiltrators egging them on and ready to phone the Pentagon for the air strikes.
AncientAtheist 2 years ago
The more I think about the particular atheists that my video today was pointed at, I have a hunch that most of them would fall into this particular camp of atheism. These are usually also the "survivalist" atheists who aren't going to get tricked into the FEMA camps, etc.
AncientAtheist 2 years ago
@AncientAtheist / @musekitier
If it makes you guys feel any better, I'm a Christian theist who loves this video/talk and thinks it's truthful, extremely interesting and a necessary message
Of course... that may make you feel worse?
gCuezy 2 years ago
It keeps me going!
Aren't you living proof that you can read the bible any way you want to, think that you are part of the group that "really" understands it, and see what you read a confirmation of the truth of god?
If you think this video is interesting and important information, based on what or where do you obtain your information that leads you to believe A) there is a god B) that it is the so-called Christian god? Many Christians would say that you aren't a fellow Christian.
AncientAtheist 2 years ago
I doubt I understand it entirely (hence the helpfulness of the talk) and I think you can read the Bible however you want and subjectivity within theology will exist regardless. I happen to be Orthodox (who believe we are the true Church) but with my beliefs I'm not sure I have too much of a home in most Christian groups.
The Christians who would call me a non-Christian are generally fundamentalists who I have no attraction to (aside from maybe some debating).
(continued)..
gCuezy 2 years ago
I am not a Christian nor a theist based on the Hebrew Bible. And I find fundamentalism abhorrent.
I am both of the above because of Christ, aesthetics, philosophy, the Bible (as a history book), the Church (Orthodoxy kicking it), etc.
gCuezy 2 years ago
Orthodoxy kicking in**
gCuezy 2 years ago
Sorry, I didn't find this because I had been forced into the wrong account.
Ah, yes, the everything-is-a-conspiracy types who reject "God" along with critical thinking. There are also nutty types who reject mainstream "deities" only to adopt crazy, fringe beliefs such as Scientology or "Science of Mind".
I think that the bottom line is an inability -- or refusal -- to base their attitudes on correctly-interpreted evidence and critical thinking.
... cont
musekiteer 2 years ago
2
If our ancestors had all subscribed to the sort of thinking exhibited by these types, we would all be chipping at stone tools and wearing skins!
The intriguing question is why so many people have utterly bizarre beliefs. I suppose that, like those who never escape mainstream indoctrinated delusions, their cognitive errors reflect inculcation combined with attraction to notions that are different-for-the-sake-of-different.
People never cease to astound me!
musekiteer 2 years ago
"People never cease to astound me! "
Keeps me going!
Thanks for your prompt reply. This is why I count on you to be my Muse! Well, that and you are so damn clever - sometimes even when I wish you weren't. ;)
AncientAtheist 2 years ago
// Keeps me going! //
Keeps me fed!
;D
Seriously, though, people *are* interesting -- often in the same way that trainwrecks are attention-getting.
Prompt?! It took me a week! Mind you, I was prompt as soon as I belatedly stumbled across your comment.
Hmmm ... I must have said something with which you disagreed.
Dennett?
I actually do disagree with him on that one. Most deconverts report heaving a sigh of relief.
musekiteer 2 years ago
Well, I was being a smartass about your "promptness"! :D
Did you disagree with me on my Dennett comment? I missed that response. What video were we talking about that on, if you recall? Anyway, I never mind you disagreeing with me. Friends can do that.
AncientAtheist 2 years ago
// I was being a smartass //
Yeah, I kinda got that. It was understandable ;)
The Dennett comment was on the video that you uploaded a couple of days ago. I was disagreeing with Dennett on "deconversion mayhem".
musekiteer 2 years ago
Thanks, nice video.
NathanWubs 2 years ago