If Catholics are using Romans 2:13 to argue for works justification then they're REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrel! Anyone with eyes can see Paul is building up a case. In Romans 3 Paul gets to the heart of the matter: no one can uphold the Law, which is why the Cross was necessary (3:23). The only verses Catholics can use are James 2 and some passages in Hebrews which talk of falling away from the faith, but even those are misused (btw what ARE those passages in Hebrews talking about?)
I wouldn't put it in the sense of faith + works. but rather, our faithfulness to Christ. meaning not only that we believe that he is the true good, but that by our following him we will have eternal life. the theif on the cross got to enter into paradise not because of works nor because of his believing in Christ. but because in his heart he anounced Jesus as Lord.
@lilrat489 The problem with your view is that justification is forensic or legal in Scripture and its by by faith to the exclusion of all works. Read Romans 3 and 4, Galatians 2 and Ephesians 2. It is designed this way so no one can boast or has the ability to boast for their being justified (declared righteous). If justification is by works or "faithfulness" instead of faithfulness being a *result* or evidence of justification, then you have room to boast and your system is false.
@KeithTruth I agree, we are not justified because of our works. faithfulness is defined as a state of loyalty or having an affection or allegence to something or someone. no doubt that this in fact causes good works. Paul did write in Romans 10, that if you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved. when you confess someone as Lord, you confess allegence, loyalty, faithfulness to them.
@lilrat489 You defined faithfulness as "following someone." Well Christ commands believers to do good works and so by following Him you're doing good works. You're justified by trust in the person and works of Christ. Romans 10 and confessing Christ as Lord is just that - but to say until we act on our confession by demonstrating our allegiance with works is where the error comes in. The justified believer who confesses Christ will work that following out after justification.
@KeithTruth Keith, I'd like to make some points here. First of all, justification is simply Paul's way of talking about remission of sins. You see how Romans 6 equates Baptism (the indwelling of the spirit) with being freed from your sins by being united with Christ's death and resurrection. Now why does God have to impute Christ's perfection to us if God already uses his spirit to unite us to the death and resurrection of Christ marked at the time we turn our hearts to the gospel? Romans 6.
@TheFunkyTheist Union with Christ is based on the legal aspect. Eph 5:28-32 mentions husbands loving wives. Husband/Christ supplies the needs of the wife/church. They become one flesh. 1 Cor 1:30 says "And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption." Christ provided our needs by paying the penalty of sin and righteousness is imputed to the person causing union with Him Gal 3:10-13; Rom. 4:1-8; 5:12-21
@TheFunkyTheist Thus, the reason a person can be freed from sin through union with Christ is because of how one is unified to Christ - the forensic. Does that make sense? Or do you need me to clarify some more?
@KeithTruth The reason we are forensically (judicially and law-court-like) declared forgiven of our sins is because the Spirit has entered us, given us faith (the sign of the spirit's indwelling and thus the sign of forgiveness). In other words the spirit doesn't enter you because you are justified, rather you are justified because the spirit has entered you. The legal/forensic does NOT precede union with Christ. Romans 6 makes that clear (we're freed from sin BY union with Christ).
@TheFunkyTheist I agree the Spirit enters you first (regeneration) whereby you are granted faith and repentance. This leads to justification and as this process is going on you are unified to Christ. They are simultaneous I am saying. When one is forensically justified there is not only the removal of sin or guilt but the positive imputation of a foreign righteousness (Ph 3:9). God demands obedience to law, not merely sinlessness. There are positive aspects to it Christ fulfilled
@KeithTruth Philippians 3:9 does not refer to an imputation of any sort. It refers to the fact that Paul himself was "righteous" (having the status of being forgiven from sin) by faith and not by works of Torah, and he says after that that this is by sharing the pattern of Christ's death. How? Not by imputation. By the Spirit's indwelling and perseverance through the spirit until the resurrection from the dead.
@TheFunkyTheist 6, 9 show justification isn't limited to remission of sins but involves positive law keeping which Christ did (Gal 4:1-4). Paul obeyed law to be righteous or virtuous, compared with faith in Christ leading to a foreign righteousness from God that doesn't come from us doing law. Imputation of righteousness accounts for this law keeping. How do you account for positive law keeping = righteousness if justification is limited to remission of Sin by the Spirit?
@KeithTruth "Law-keeping" and the need for perfect obedience, I don't think that this is something we must have before we are forgiven from sin, since God is not a legalist. The purpose of Christ's obedience was to manipulate death, so that by our being put "into Christ" by the Spirit, we may die with him, and pull through death like he did, given that he manipulated it with sinlessness. Must we be sinless too? Not all at once. Our sinless nature reverses in a life-long process of transformation
@TheFunkyTheist ...which is by the Spirit of God indwelling in us. Paul said, "he who began a good work in you will complete it" in Philippians 1. That's why God forgives us of our sins though we are sinners. Not because of imputation of virtue. But because of a promise. The promise is that we will live with God forever, and God will shape us by his Spirit to be spotless one day, only if his Spirit continues with us, and thus, if we also continue in faith and love which is by the Spirit's work.
@TheFunkyTheist If you say in 3:6 Paul spoke of being in the covenant by boundary markers and not virtue/righteousness by full law then I will have to point out that even James Dunn, a strong NPP advocate, has conceded the debate and said many texts which talk about "justified by law" go beyond these boundary markers and refer to the full law. There are many texts we could discuss concerning imputation but I can't continue this convo (need to work lots). So have the last word.
@TheFunkyTheist Look at how in Ph 3:6 Paul talks about his positive righteousness under the law (law keeping) as a Jew. He then contrasts that with the Justified believer who has positive imputation of righteousness or virtue - not merely remission of sins.
It's funny how Roman Catholics will use Romans 2 to say faith plus works of the Law = justification but on other occasions when you take them to Galatians they'll say "Oh, well, Paul was just doing away with works of the Law in that book."
@AgApE010 Next time a Catholic mentions that, ask them to explain Romans 7:7. Paul isn't just talking about Jewish ceremonial law, but God's moral law as well - unless you believe covetuousness was only a sin for those who possessed the Law! And unless Paul changed his mind(!) his reference to the Law in Galatians has exactly the same connotation. It's almost as bad as their use of 1 Corinthians 13 to refute Sola Fide! Check out William Webster's website 'Christian Resources'. God bless you!
Regarding your question about Hebrews, it's useful to note that the author assumes (or knows) that there are unbelievers in the midst of the Hebrew Christians. Notice, for example, the change in audience in Hebrews 6:4: "**in the case of those** who have once been enlightened..." in contrast to his believing audience: "yet **in your case,** **beloved**, we feel sure of better things--things that belong to salvation."
So in Hebrews 6 (and 10) the author seems to be addressing those who were in the midst of the believers, have seen the Spirit of God at work, and yet who have not repented and bore fruits (see 6:8). They never trusted in the Gospel insomuch as these things ("once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift," etc) were not "things that belong to salvation," in contrast to the believers.
There's much to be said, but I don't want to bombard you with comments lol.
If Catholics are using Romans 2:13 to argue for works justification then they're REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrel! Anyone with eyes can see Paul is building up a case. In Romans 3 Paul gets to the heart of the matter: no one can uphold the Law, which is why the Cross was necessary (3:23). The only verses Catholics can use are James 2 and some passages in Hebrews which talk of falling away from the faith, but even those are misused (btw what ARE those passages in Hebrews talking about?)
AchillesShield 1 month ago
I wouldn't put it in the sense of faith + works. but rather, our faithfulness to Christ. meaning not only that we believe that he is the true good, but that by our following him we will have eternal life. the theif on the cross got to enter into paradise not because of works nor because of his believing in Christ. but because in his heart he anounced Jesus as Lord.
lilrat489 1 month ago
@lilrat489 The problem with your view is that justification is forensic or legal in Scripture and its by by faith to the exclusion of all works. Read Romans 3 and 4, Galatians 2 and Ephesians 2. It is designed this way so no one can boast or has the ability to boast for their being justified (declared righteous). If justification is by works or "faithfulness" instead of faithfulness being a *result* or evidence of justification, then you have room to boast and your system is false.
KeithTruth 1 month ago
@KeithTruth I agree, we are not justified because of our works. faithfulness is defined as a state of loyalty or having an affection or allegence to something or someone. no doubt that this in fact causes good works. Paul did write in Romans 10, that if you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved. when you confess someone as Lord, you confess allegence, loyalty, faithfulness to them.
lilrat489 1 month ago
@lilrat489 You defined faithfulness as "following someone." Well Christ commands believers to do good works and so by following Him you're doing good works. You're justified by trust in the person and works of Christ. Romans 10 and confessing Christ as Lord is just that - but to say until we act on our confession by demonstrating our allegiance with works is where the error comes in. The justified believer who confesses Christ will work that following out after justification.
KeithTruth 1 month ago
@KeithTruth Keith, I'd like to make some points here. First of all, justification is simply Paul's way of talking about remission of sins. You see how Romans 6 equates Baptism (the indwelling of the spirit) with being freed from your sins by being united with Christ's death and resurrection. Now why does God have to impute Christ's perfection to us if God already uses his spirit to unite us to the death and resurrection of Christ marked at the time we turn our hearts to the gospel? Romans 6.
TheFunkyTheist 1 month ago
@TheFunkyTheist Union with Christ is based on the legal aspect. Eph 5:28-32 mentions husbands loving wives. Husband/Christ supplies the needs of the wife/church. They become one flesh. 1 Cor 1:30 says "And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption." Christ provided our needs by paying the penalty of sin and righteousness is imputed to the person causing union with Him Gal 3:10-13; Rom. 4:1-8; 5:12-21
KeithTruth 1 month ago
@TheFunkyTheist Thus, the reason a person can be freed from sin through union with Christ is because of how one is unified to Christ - the forensic. Does that make sense? Or do you need me to clarify some more?
KeithTruth 1 month ago
@KeithTruth The reason we are forensically (judicially and law-court-like) declared forgiven of our sins is because the Spirit has entered us, given us faith (the sign of the spirit's indwelling and thus the sign of forgiveness). In other words the spirit doesn't enter you because you are justified, rather you are justified because the spirit has entered you. The legal/forensic does NOT precede union with Christ. Romans 6 makes that clear (we're freed from sin BY union with Christ).
TheFunkyTheist 1 month ago
@TheFunkyTheist I agree the Spirit enters you first (regeneration) whereby you are granted faith and repentance. This leads to justification and as this process is going on you are unified to Christ. They are simultaneous I am saying. When one is forensically justified there is not only the removal of sin or guilt but the positive imputation of a foreign righteousness (Ph 3:9). God demands obedience to law, not merely sinlessness. There are positive aspects to it Christ fulfilled
KeithTruth 1 month ago
@KeithTruth Philippians 3:9 does not refer to an imputation of any sort. It refers to the fact that Paul himself was "righteous" (having the status of being forgiven from sin) by faith and not by works of Torah, and he says after that that this is by sharing the pattern of Christ's death. How? Not by imputation. By the Spirit's indwelling and perseverance through the spirit until the resurrection from the dead.
TheFunkyTheist 1 month ago
@TheFunkyTheist 6, 9 show justification isn't limited to remission of sins but involves positive law keeping which Christ did (Gal 4:1-4). Paul obeyed law to be righteous or virtuous, compared with faith in Christ leading to a foreign righteousness from God that doesn't come from us doing law. Imputation of righteousness accounts for this law keeping. How do you account for positive law keeping = righteousness if justification is limited to remission of Sin by the Spirit?
KeithTruth 1 month ago
@KeithTruth "Law-keeping" and the need for perfect obedience, I don't think that this is something we must have before we are forgiven from sin, since God is not a legalist. The purpose of Christ's obedience was to manipulate death, so that by our being put "into Christ" by the Spirit, we may die with him, and pull through death like he did, given that he manipulated it with sinlessness. Must we be sinless too? Not all at once. Our sinless nature reverses in a life-long process of transformation
TheFunkyTheist 1 month ago
@TheFunkyTheist ...which is by the Spirit of God indwelling in us. Paul said, "he who began a good work in you will complete it" in Philippians 1. That's why God forgives us of our sins though we are sinners. Not because of imputation of virtue. But because of a promise. The promise is that we will live with God forever, and God will shape us by his Spirit to be spotless one day, only if his Spirit continues with us, and thus, if we also continue in faith and love which is by the Spirit's work.
TheFunkyTheist 1 month ago
@TheFunkyTheist If you say in 3:6 Paul spoke of being in the covenant by boundary markers and not virtue/righteousness by full law then I will have to point out that even James Dunn, a strong NPP advocate, has conceded the debate and said many texts which talk about "justified by law" go beyond these boundary markers and refer to the full law. There are many texts we could discuss concerning imputation but I can't continue this convo (need to work lots). So have the last word.
KeithTruth 1 month ago
@TheFunkyTheist Look at how in Ph 3:6 Paul talks about his positive righteousness under the law (law keeping) as a Jew. He then contrasts that with the Justified believer who has positive imputation of righteousness or virtue - not merely remission of sins.
KeithTruth 1 month ago
It's funny how Roman Catholics will use Romans 2 to say faith plus works of the Law = justification but on other occasions when you take them to Galatians they'll say "Oh, well, Paul was just doing away with works of the Law in that book."
*Does not compute!*
AgApE010 1 month ago
@AgApE010 Next time a Catholic mentions that, ask them to explain Romans 7:7. Paul isn't just talking about Jewish ceremonial law, but God's moral law as well - unless you believe covetuousness was only a sin for those who possessed the Law! And unless Paul changed his mind(!) his reference to the Law in Galatians has exactly the same connotation. It's almost as bad as their use of 1 Corinthians 13 to refute Sola Fide! Check out William Webster's website 'Christian Resources'. God bless you!
AchillesShield 1 month ago
@AchillesShield
Very well said! Thank you.
Regarding your question about Hebrews, it's useful to note that the author assumes (or knows) that there are unbelievers in the midst of the Hebrew Christians. Notice, for example, the change in audience in Hebrews 6:4: "**in the case of those** who have once been enlightened..." in contrast to his believing audience: "yet **in your case,** **beloved**, we feel sure of better things--things that belong to salvation."
...
AgApE010 1 month ago
@AchillesShield
...
So in Hebrews 6 (and 10) the author seems to be addressing those who were in the midst of the believers, have seen the Spirit of God at work, and yet who have not repented and bore fruits (see 6:8). They never trusted in the Gospel insomuch as these things ("once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift," etc) were not "things that belong to salvation," in contrast to the believers.
There's much to be said, but I don't want to bombard you with comments lol.
AgApE010 1 month ago
Glad it was of use to you brother!
Got some more stuff for you next time we talk.
Onetruthrgv 1 month ago
@Onetruthrgv Yes thank you brother.
KeithTruth 1 month ago