What you're saying is true, both of you, actually, in my opinion. But I don't beleive that, that Bagua was morerecently modified to emphasize fighting applications. Sounds ridiculous, frankly. What is your source? I'm actually really curious, is it something a teacher said or a valid historical reference?
That's what I thought for many years, I would say "That's not what the training is for, it's for its own reason... develop your philosophy and you will not need to fight."... Turns out that corruption attacks the good, and that there is a lot that is only right to stand up against if you can and others can't. There are some fucked up people out there. I just had't been exposed. My original thought is still largely true, though, and I practice it to the greatest extent possible.
Yes there are and more importantly it is only when you have the ability to fight that you can conquer your fear of fighting and resolve most situations (not all) without fighting.
It's about to, I convinced my teacher. No shit. He'll probably stay away from TV, but we'll get video footage of internal boxing in pro-level MMA title matches out of it. It'll be a kick, this guy is from another universe, no one like him. A true master. I just got him to look at it differently and now he's going to do it. No hesitation once he decided, now he's conditioning and making arrangements.
i finally get to hear what bruce kumars voice sounds like after being a big fan of his for years and reading many of his books. you must understand i was somewhat shocked to realise he sounds exactly like MICKEY MOUSE.
Okay. There are certain things to keep in mind. MMA competitions don't allow small joint manipulations, whereas in a street fight anything goes. Tai Chi has a great number of joint manipulations (including small joint - hence fingers, etc..) Bagua fighters can dislocate any number of an opponent's vertebrae. Many "stepping moves" of Bagua attack (and at full speed WILL break) either the ankle or knee while simultaneously defending and attacking the rest of the opponent's body. In a street
fight, a Bagua person's throw could easily cause the opponent's neck to break, or at least a concussion. A ring has a canvas, or a mat. Any internal martial art would be HIGHLY effective in a self defense situation, but it takes so long to master the techniques (and master the mindset in order to use them effectively) that the other benefits that come before fighting ability are worth more.
before they develop their philosophy. That is to say, develop themselves psychologically until their attitudes are well examined and eveloped and their behavior is mature. I wouldn't.
sorry what i ment t say was i would like to see trd arts have come up with answers to fighting mma? basicly you take the trad art and modify it not for the ring but for modern self defense, kind of like what ed parker did with american kenpo.or jiulong bagua of coiling dragon internal arts
I've seen this guy toss around an MMA fighter like he was nothing. I've practiced many different Martial Arts throughout my life (Jujitsu, Aikido, Muy Thai, Kung Fu (misnomer, really), Karate) and been in quite a few fights (and sparring matches - including ones with Steve Barker - a national MMA kickboxing champion in the '90's) and yet I would never be stupid enough to challenge B. K. Frantzis in a fight (and I'm 15 to 20 years younger than he is).
This is a segment from the Martial Art Forms show back around 1985. It was seen on cable in New York City. We'll post a better version soon and the rest of the show.
If you remove anything from BGZ you are no longer doing Dung's BZG. Btw one of clips you listed as your favorite is a forms guy he has no understanding of fighting but looks good when he moves, if someone wants to go down that road no one is going to stop them. But some of us would like to preserve the complete transmission of these martial arts rather than passing on pieces of it thinking that we'll never need to defend ourselves.
Who defines what is the trunk and what are the leaves? You need both the fundamentals of fighting and the qigong to reach a high level of skill in IMA. As far as Dung's teachers most old martial artists I met in China were also living long and vital lives, good martial arts training has all the benefits that western doctors lecture us about, combine that with qigong and you have the complete package.
Hi Richard, I'm aware of the theory but I completely disgaree. Yes there was circle walking before bagua just as there was qigong before the other IMAs, but circle walking and qigong by themselves are not martial arts. All of Dung's disciples were very skilled fighters there is no reason why that tradition shouldn't be carried on today. The idea that they were learning to kill to reach enlightenment just doesn't add up to me. For some reason westerners want to separate qigong from fighting.
most high level internal fighters are in asia, there are a few who exist in other countries but still most are in asia and even then the internal arts have their own competitions. something forgotten many times when speaking of the internal arts is that they became famous due to the skill of those who first introduced them to the world. also mma is mixed martial and to become proficient in any of the internal arts takes years, even decades of work, so it is unlikely to see one competing in mma
As far as staying out of fights, I do believe it is easy but internal martial arts started purely as martial arts and there are times when perfectly good people become victims of violent crime. One of the things I find interesting about internal martial arts is that allow the player some level of self-defense without excess damage to the body, but the player does need to be realistic about their training methods if they do want to have an understanding of the fighting side.
I give you props as an mma fan who made a very intelligent comment, no offense but many either side one way or the other tradition or mma. The baqua user you mentioned probably just made the mistake of not training to counter mma techniques,(stupid i know) at least thats my guess. and yes a fight with a high level internal fighter and an mma user of high regard would rock.
he could handle them well my friend. there are several including combat applicataion. I really give you props, most who like mma cant see that tradition has stuck around for a reason.
Great footage, thanks. I've also read Bruce's book on the internal arts and found it excellent, and loved his stories about his many encounters with exotic arts in China, such as the time he trained with some Eight Drunken Elders practitioners.
i hear a lot about bagua and i am really interested about it, but as far as i have seen, no one shows it against a skilled fighter.sorry, this clip is lame.
I've been to a couple seminars. I've seen old footage taken before Bruce broke his back really bad the second time - one of the other long time attendees had it - it blew me away. He really could function these higher form CMA in non cooperative situations. I highly reccomend his seminars.
I would luv to go to one of his seminars just to meet him. i currently practice an external/internal style, but it would be awesome to do an internal style for spiritual and health benefits as well as a better understanding and development of chi.
Spiritial firitual. The "internal" aspect of the martial arts is to make you powerful. There is no qi, it doesn't exist - it's just excellent body mechanics, well-drilled, with a good understanding of alignments and not wasting power, and of relaxation of the muscle and tendons. That's it. Bruce would contradict me, but Wang Xiangzhai would contradict Bruce, so...
"qi" is a general, and outdated term IMO. You can call it whatever you want, since Qi isn't as tangible as people seem to think it is. It is simply what that "pathway" or "flow" was called back when nobody knew what they hell they were feeling. Qi exists, but not in the way people think it does.
I am going to contradict you too. you are quite a troll mr blackjamm, I have seen your crap all over other people's martial arts vids, CMA vids, anything Taoist on YT. You troll fitness channels, christian channels.. pretty much your contribution to YT is trolling. As far as I'm concerned you are more than welcome to make a video with your name and face but your kind never does. Weak sauce pal. Be sure to look me up if you get to the Bay Area and I'll contradict you in person
Yes sir, I do indeed practice martial arts. Religiously. Several. The knowledge in the head of the man in this video saved my life. Physically and spiritually. Something I am eternally and profoundly grateful for. I sent you an email with more details. regards, Jane
It is great to see this clip of Bruce an old friend, one of the few Americans who spend a long time in apprenticeship with a "real" Chinese master and lineage holder and who received the "full" transmission of this art while living as an inner door student in Beijing with his master. Thanks for the clip. I have some clips of he and I and others "playing" that when I have time I will post here.
hey Bif, what is an old Texas con man like you doing in a place like this?it is good to see you are here!take alook at my vids when you get a chance and get back to me
Good one! Also, it looks and definately sounds like Ken Van Sickle who is helping out to demonstrate with Bruce, nice to see them both moving together.
Nothing that a left hook wouldn't take care of
LeungJan1 1 year ago
fai cacare
daranis1 1 year ago
that van sycle guy is not a student of chan man ching. you can throw around all the popular names you want but his movement gives him away.
knightroj 2 years ago
What you're saying is true, both of you, actually, in my opinion. But I don't beleive that, that Bagua was morerecently modified to emphasize fighting applications. Sounds ridiculous, frankly. What is your source? I'm actually really curious, is it something a teacher said or a valid historical reference?
Kazmundio 2 years ago
My point was that Dung created Bagua and that was a fighting art.
gregoryfromcali 2 years ago
@gregoryfromcali "Master your body and energy first -then fighting will be the easy part!"
piaten 1 year ago
@piaten Or you could using fighting as a means of mastering your body.
gregoryfromcali 1 year ago
That's what I thought for many years, I would say "That's not what the training is for, it's for its own reason... develop your philosophy and you will not need to fight."... Turns out that corruption attacks the good, and that there is a lot that is only right to stand up against if you can and others can't. There are some fucked up people out there. I just had't been exposed. My original thought is still largely true, though, and I practice it to the greatest extent possible.
Kazmundio 2 years ago
Yes there are and more importantly it is only when you have the ability to fight that you can conquer your fear of fighting and resolve most situations (not all) without fighting.
gregoryfromcali 2 years ago
It's about to, I convinced my teacher. No shit. He'll probably stay away from TV, but we'll get video footage of internal boxing in pro-level MMA title matches out of it. It'll be a kick, this guy is from another universe, no one like him. A true master. I just got him to look at it differently and now he's going to do it. No hesitation once he decided, now he's conditioning and making arrangements.
Kazmundio 2 years ago
For once I would like to see Kumar demonstrate on someone who isn't a pussy.
cioccolatosexy 2 years ago
the sparring was not very impressive at all
ajaben 2 years ago
Kumar barely showed anything here. What I mean is, the guy got off very easily.
paguaplayer 3 years ago
anyone would have a hard time getting near this man
jhpress 3 years ago
i finally get to hear what bruce kumars voice sounds like after being a big fan of his for years and reading many of his books. you must understand i was somewhat shocked to realise he sounds exactly like MICKEY MOUSE.
xingyimaster1987 3 years ago 4
I really like this video, I like the fluidity of BKF's Bagua.
chud67 3 years ago
Okay. There are certain things to keep in mind. MMA competitions don't allow small joint manipulations, whereas in a street fight anything goes. Tai Chi has a great number of joint manipulations (including small joint - hence fingers, etc..) Bagua fighters can dislocate any number of an opponent's vertebrae. Many "stepping moves" of Bagua attack (and at full speed WILL break) either the ankle or knee while simultaneously defending and attacking the rest of the opponent's body. In a street
gr8grfx 3 years ago
fight, a Bagua person's throw could easily cause the opponent's neck to break, or at least a concussion. A ring has a canvas, or a mat. Any internal martial art would be HIGHLY effective in a self defense situation, but it takes so long to master the techniques (and master the mindset in order to use them effectively) that the other benefits that come before fighting ability are worth more.
gr8grfx 3 years ago
before they develop their philosophy. That is to say, develop themselves psychologically until their attitudes are well examined and eveloped and their behavior is mature. I wouldn't.
Kazmundio 2 years ago
sorry if i offended anyone, i was just stating out of curiousity, from what i noticed and enccountered my own internal ma journey?
LibraryLies 3 years ago
sorry what i ment t say was i would like to see trd arts have come up with answers to fighting mma? basicly you take the trad art and modify it not for the ring but for modern self defense, kind of like what ed parker did with american kenpo.or jiulong bagua of coiling dragon internal arts
LibraryLies 3 years ago
Library Lies:
I've seen this guy toss around an MMA fighter like he was nothing. I've practiced many different Martial Arts throughout my life (Jujitsu, Aikido, Muy Thai, Kung Fu (misnomer, really), Karate) and been in quite a few fights (and sparring matches - including ones with Steve Barker - a national MMA kickboxing champion in the '90's) and yet I would never be stupid enough to challenge B. K. Frantzis in a fight (and I'm 15 to 20 years younger than he is).
gr8grfx 3 years ago
What the heck is a "national MMA kickboxing champion"???
kronos77 3 years ago
Kumar would not challenge Kumar to fight -- that's how dangerous Kumar1 is!!
Even so, fearing Kumar to such an extent pales by how much Kumar fears the beard (Chuck Norris Beard)!!! This shows Kumars wisdom!
OctoBox 3 years ago 3
This is a segment from the Martial Art Forms show back around 1985. It was seen on cable in New York City. We'll post a better version soon and the rest of the show.
MartialArchiveTv 3 years ago
If you remove anything from BGZ you are no longer doing Dung's BZG. Btw one of clips you listed as your favorite is a forms guy he has no understanding of fighting but looks good when he moves, if someone wants to go down that road no one is going to stop them. But some of us would like to preserve the complete transmission of these martial arts rather than passing on pieces of it thinking that we'll never need to defend ourselves.
gregoryfromcali 3 years ago
Who defines what is the trunk and what are the leaves? You need both the fundamentals of fighting and the qigong to reach a high level of skill in IMA. As far as Dung's teachers most old martial artists I met in China were also living long and vital lives, good martial arts training has all the benefits that western doctors lecture us about, combine that with qigong and you have the complete package.
gregoryfromcali 3 years ago
Hi Richard, I'm aware of the theory but I completely disgaree. Yes there was circle walking before bagua just as there was qigong before the other IMAs, but circle walking and qigong by themselves are not martial arts. All of Dung's disciples were very skilled fighters there is no reason why that tradition shouldn't be carried on today. The idea that they were learning to kill to reach enlightenment just doesn't add up to me. For some reason westerners want to separate qigong from fighting.
gregoryfromcali 3 years ago
most high level internal fighters are in asia, there are a few who exist in other countries but still most are in asia and even then the internal arts have their own competitions. something forgotten many times when speaking of the internal arts is that they became famous due to the skill of those who first introduced them to the world. also mma is mixed martial and to become proficient in any of the internal arts takes years, even decades of work, so it is unlikely to see one competing in mma
humeseraph 3 years ago
As far as staying out of fights, I do believe it is easy but internal martial arts started purely as martial arts and there are times when perfectly good people become victims of violent crime. One of the things I find interesting about internal martial arts is that allow the player some level of self-defense without excess damage to the body, but the player does need to be realistic about their training methods if they do want to have an understanding of the fighting side.
gregoryfromcali 3 years ago
I give you props as an mma fan who made a very intelligent comment, no offense but many either side one way or the other tradition or mma. The baqua user you mentioned probably just made the mistake of not training to counter mma techniques,(stupid i know) at least thats my guess. and yes a fight with a high level internal fighter and an mma user of high regard would rock.
Bastion83 3 years ago
he could handle them well my friend. there are several including combat applicataion. I really give you props, most who like mma cant see that tradition has stuck around for a reason.
Bastion83 3 years ago
he moves well....but i would like to see him defend against trained ma or mma. it kind looks like the vid was sped up.
i would like to see more footage of mr bk frantzis
LibraryLies 4 years ago
why should a mma fighter fight against bruce or against anyone else who didn't do anything bad? I thought they're policemen.
HeliosDuoMagistus 4 years ago
MMA is a sport Bagua is the art of overkill.Sure there exist skilled strong nasty ass fighters in
MMA.Bruce is known as a student who got it So my money would b on him.Such a match would be great to see,why dont we?MMA is a sport.
abraxnos 4 years ago
hi does anyone know of any other footage of Bruce out here in the web world or does anyone any more footage to post
lbmcr 4 years ago
Great footage, thanks. I've also read Bruce's book on the internal arts and found it excellent, and loved his stories about his many encounters with exotic arts in China, such as the time he trained with some Eight Drunken Elders practitioners.
magellan500 4 years ago
i hear a lot about bagua and i am really interested about it, but as far as i have seen, no one shows it against a skilled fighter.sorry, this clip is lame.
djolko 4 years ago
I've been to a couple seminars. I've seen old footage taken before Bruce broke his back really bad the second time - one of the other long time attendees had it - it blew me away. He really could function these higher form CMA in non cooperative situations. I highly reccomend his seminars.
8triagrammer 4 years ago
I would luv to go to one of his seminars just to meet him. i currently practice an external/internal style, but it would be awesome to do an internal style for spiritual and health benefits as well as a better understanding and development of chi.
raijnazn 4 years ago
Spiritial firitual. The "internal" aspect of the martial arts is to make you powerful. There is no qi, it doesn't exist - it's just excellent body mechanics, well-drilled, with a good understanding of alignments and not wasting power, and of relaxation of the muscle and tendons. That's it. Bruce would contradict me, but Wang Xiangzhai would contradict Bruce, so...
blackjamm 4 years ago
"qi" is a general, and outdated term IMO. You can call it whatever you want, since Qi isn't as tangible as people seem to think it is. It is simply what that "pathway" or "flow" was called back when nobody knew what they hell they were feeling. Qi exists, but not in the way people think it does.
cloud0123 4 years ago
@ blackjamm
I am going to contradict you too. you are quite a troll mr blackjamm, I have seen your crap all over other people's martial arts vids, CMA vids, anything Taoist on YT. You troll fitness channels, christian channels.. pretty much your contribution to YT is trolling. As far as I'm concerned you are more than welcome to make a video with your name and face but your kind never does. Weak sauce pal. Be sure to look me up if you get to the Bay Area and I'll contradict you in person
SFJane 4 years ago
Just out of curiosity, do you actually know and practice any martial arts, or do you have more attitude than skill, like most of your kind?
magellan500 4 years ago
@magellan500,
Yes sir, I do indeed practice martial arts. Religiously. Several. The knowledge in the head of the man in this video saved my life. Physically and spiritually. Something I am eternally and profoundly grateful for. I sent you an email with more details. regards, Jane
SFJane 4 years ago
It is great to see this clip of Bruce an old friend, one of the few Americans who spend a long time in apprenticeship with a "real" Chinese master and lineage holder and who received the "full" transmission of this art while living as an inner door student in Beijing with his master. Thanks for the clip. I have some clips of he and I and others "playing" that when I have time I will post here.
thegompa 5 years ago
hey Bif, what is an old Texas con man like you doing in a place like this?it is good to see you are here!take alook at my vids when you get a chance and get back to me
OneRoomSchoolHouse 4 years ago
Good one! Also, it looks and definately sounds like Ken Van Sickle who is helping out to demonstrate with Bruce, nice to see them both moving together.
yesbut22 5 years ago
This was filmed as part of a larger interview BKF did probably sometime back in mid to late eighties.
gregoryfromcali 5 years ago
It's very rare to see Bruce in action. From where did you get the movie? Anyway thanks
baguapalm 5 years ago
Bruce is awesome at Ba gua.
shengchenfan 5 years ago