And to those who come up with evil comments about "enjoying to see VZ burning alive" : you are SICK ! Nobody deserves to die this way . VZ made his mistakes on that unfortunate day , but there have been many other reasons and causes which led to the disaster .
Everybody wants to blame the KLM crew, and that is certainly understandable. -But for a minute, think about that crew; realize that there are always a few more hands on the throttles than in the cockpit, realize that a Spanish ATC was communicating to a Dutch crew in English, realize that an act of terrorism brought the two planes to the island in the first place, realize that unfavorable weather conditions obstructed the view of the ensuing moments to come. Hindsight is 20/20.
@theschoolofchuck The language barrier should not be an issue. if you want to be a pilot for a major airline or an ATC you have to speak and write fluent English. It is the international language of aviation.
The captain did a mistake. he should have either stopped or moved out from the right of the runway. and ATC is not allowed to clear 2 places to be in one runway
It's remarkable to me that the Dutch investigators first tried to pin the blame on the Pan-Am crew. They were harshly critical of the Pan-Am crew's failure to turn off at the correct place. What an absolute failure of common sense!! "Make bloody sure you turn off at the right place, in case one of our pilots decides to take off w/o clearance b/c he's in a fucking hurry!!!" Wow!!! That's powerful stupidity.
@vonkruel I totally agree the Dutch act as if their STAR Pilot did nothing wrong but anyone who flies a plane knows that "Flying 101" You must get take off clearance which is not ATC clearance. Van Zantan was an ASSHOLE to begin with I wouldn't have flown a kite with his dumbass much less a 747.
@Bubs1469 The co-pilots KNEW there was a problem too - you can see that in the transcript. My attitude towards VZ has softened a bit, because yes he fucked up massively but he also did pay the ultimate price for it (loss of life & ruined reputation). This was a cultural problem too -- the Captain was the "king of the plane", and you better not question him. That's changed, and there were other positive changes that came out of this too - paid for by people's lives.
Sure, Hitler was a mass murderer, but he did it because he wanted to make best for his country (I'm not saying it was good). But Van Zanten killed many because oh his own fucking sake.
Pan am went out of business because a terrorist bomb exploded on the airplane and the victims loved ones sued the airline. Pan am wasn't doing too well anyway so when the terrorist bomb happened, pan American went outta business. Did you nknow
This is 100% the fault of the Dutch pilot. Yes the Pan Am didn't turn off when they were supposed to but all this did was mean they were on the runway for an extra few seconds. The KLM pilot pushed the throttle without ATC clearance so full blame is on him.
Look ladies and Gentleman...even a Student Pilot knows NOT to take off with NOT "TAKE OFF" clearance. Specific instructions": Departure clearance is different and †he PIC should have known better.....ignore the fog and else that happened, fog, non standard ATC communication, fog, one runway, etc. NTSB ruled on †his. PIC is at fault BIG TIME.
Still heartbreaking today. So many 'bad' problems coalescing at once--fog, diversion, fuel logged jet, etc..all the makings of disaster, but the culmination still is most haunting because of the KLM pilot's decision to supercede clearance and the poor copilot not taking control (well, so much for 'seniority' when your dead), one simple last act that could have made all the difference...God how sad...
well,if i was the co pilot,i would stop my captain from T/off w/out clearance even it coast my job,at least i would be a live and,may god bless all the victims!
Notice how the dumbfucks in the control tower forgot to tell the rescue workers about the wrecked Pan Am 747 on the runway AFTER the crash and let hundreds in the Pan Am plane burn to death. Criminally stupid.
@cchris874 They certainly knew that they had sent two planes taxiing down the same runway (a legal but dangerous practice). They would have had (or should have known) that two planes were involved in the crash. The assholes in the control tower, by not alerting the rescue crews that there was a second plane, doomed hundreds in the Pan Am jet who initially survived. The whole incident shows what your life is worth to an airline. By the way KLM is still doing business as "Delta".
In the confusion of the moment, I wouldn't be too harsh on the controllers for that - it's somewhat speculative. It's also speculative whether the earlier arrival of rescue vehicles would have saved hundreds. On the other hand ATC can be called to task for many other things, as you mention. As for KLM, I wouldn't conclude much of anything as their overall record is extremely good, and excluding regionals and charters, no major crashes since the 1960s.
@cchris874 You must mean no OTHER major crashes since the 1960's. Hundreds of the soon to be deceased passengers on the Pan Am 747 survived the initial impact. Most of the passengers died when the extremely hot fire consumed all the oxygen they (the decedents on the Pan Am flight) were breathing. A prompt rescue would have made all the difference. As it was the 61 survivors had to fend for themselves. Maybe the Pan Am flight made an error but the black mark (and the bill) went to KLM.
Yes, as I stated, excluding charters, as the KLM was an "unscheduled" flight. In any case, to go 33 years w/o a major event is pretty damn good safety.
As far as the rescue, again, having looked at plane crashes for decades it's highly speculative to say an earlier arrival by rescuers would have made the difference: look at the KLM. Everyone probably survived the impact. But no one could have been saved them, regardless.
@cchris874 The KLM "charter" was an actual KLM flight, with a KLM pilot and crew, so KLM gets no relief on that point. It is highly unlikely that ANYONE survived the KLM crash (at least for more than a few minutes). The only thing I can add is that KLM pilot, Van Zanten, was so malfeasant (criminally so) that it may assuage some of the blame due the air traffic controllers and the Pan Am flight crew. If this was a U.S. airport, Van Zanten (had he survived) would have been charged with murder.
That's what I meant. The KLM pax all survived the IMPACT. But the fire was far too violent and rapid to get a rescue. SO - what it says is that you can't say that just because a rescue truck gets there on time, it can save hundreds.
As far as Van Zanten the murderer, there's where I part company with a lot of people. He THOUGHT he had the clearance. It's UNTHINKABLE that he decided to ignore the rules. Ask any commercial pilot.
@cchris874 According to the laws in the U.S., Van Zanten, by the fact that he intended to violate labor law by taking off early (remember he was about to go off duty) committed murder in the same way as a bank robber commits murder if someone dies in the course of a robbery. It does not matter that he was only partially to blame (although KLM paid the entire civil judgement). He could have easily been convicted in any state or federal court of 583 counts of murder.
- "intended to violate labor law by taking off early"
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I've lost you. What do you mean by he "intended" to take off early? Or are you referring to the fact that he took off w/o the proper clearance? If so, we have absolutely no way to prove this was intentional.
@cchris874 Had Van Zanten survived and been brought to court the murder case would have hinged on the fact that the Dutch crew was minutes from being taken out of service and thus the KLM pilot (Van Zanten) was motivated to start his takeoff roll early. Van Zanten was clearly aware of labor law and what going out of service would cost his airline in dollars. What you are referring to ("non standard phrases" or the fact that the simplex communication was "stepped on") would only be a defense.
I'm aware of all this. As I said, there's no way to prove it. He may have made a conscious decision to take off early. But FAR more likely, he mistook the airways clearance for a T/O clearance. A murder charge requires proof of intent. The proof here is lacking. It's at best one speculative scenario. Taking off mistakenly has happened before. Trying to T/O w/o clearance is hard to swallow when you have two crew members as witnesses who will report you.
@cchris874 "Exhibit A" in this case would have been the bill for 55,000 gallons of jet fuel paid for by KLM on Tenerife. Why would Van Zanten take on that much fuel for a twenty minute flight to the main island UNLESS he intended to skirt the regulations on hours of service. Here we have "motive" and "opportunity" and only the third prong of intent has to be satisfied to convict. Assuming he had survived , think of how badly the authorities in the U.S. would have liked to get a hold of him.
If I ever am in a plane crash and need a lawyer I will be sure to contact you immediately. IF I survive that is, and don't have a death wish that leaves me and 582 others dead.
There is something else very sinister here:
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Pan Van
Am Zan ten.
A little arithmetic shows that if you take the "ten" from Van Zan ten, and subtract 4, the 1st part of the KLM flight #, you get 6. The 2nd # of PAs flt # is 7, subtracting its 1st #, 1=6. Finally, take the last # of the PA # = 666.
@cchris874 First of all, that didn't even make sense. Secondly, that paragraph was so elaborate that you'd be a fool to believe that it had any merit whatsoever. You can make ANYTHING come out to 666 if you really wanted to, and apparently, you really do. Thirdly, you're an idiot for believing in conspiracies like that. And LASTLY, the number of the devil is 616, not 666. Common misconception. Look it up.
True. But you gotta admit everything else I wrote is extremely intelligent, well informed, balanced and rational., unlike faffy who thinks Van Zanten was a murderer. A little over the top, don't you think? And unlike most of the junk posted here. :)
We can still have one if you want. Except I just don't think I have the genetic makeup for one. For instance, I would have let the British keep taxing the US back in 1776. (I'm talking here as a Bostonian, mind you.) Maybe we'd (US) be better off today (instead of betta off). Certainly there would have been no PaAm 1736 to crash into.
It certainly wasn't pretty. Each person reacts differently to something like this. Some find comfort in a black-and-white sense of outrage (I'm not saying you). I find it by accepting that this is simply the nature of this world. People, no matter how well intentioned, will always occassionally fuck up. Period. End of discussion. If Tenerife hadn't happened, nature would have found some other loophole to inflict horror on us. Blame won't change that basic fact.
@cchris874 Well, tiny Los Rodeos for years was an accident waiting to happen, with over 1000 fatalities to its name. As for the Dutch, they have always alleged it was the Pan Am flight that violated the right of way as the KLM plane technically had priority in that instance. Obviously the people at KLM were devastated, and Tenerife and then Lockerbie eventually ended up putting Pan Am out of business.
In fact Los Rodeos was an accident that already had happened (3 times I believe) before 1977.The deficiencies of the Spanish ATC system had been widely noted at the time , which was operated by the military at the time. It certainly contributed to the 1980 Dan Air crash as well.
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I don't know where the story came from that the Dutch blamed it on Pan Am. But they definitely did not do so in their own accident report, which tries to argue no one was really at fault !!
I don't think Tenerife had anything to do with that, though Lockerbie probably didn't help. It's ironic that Pan Am used to boast throughout the 70s "The World's Most Experienced Airline" at a time when they were having crash after crash - and KLM, , calling themsleves the "Reliable Dutch," noting they were the oldest operating airline, would then both be in the worst crash of all.
The KLM name, I believe, is being phased out later this year.
@cchris874 I was just commenting on what you said, that if it was not KLM v. Pan Am it would have been something else. Los Rodeos, with it's absurd location in the highlands, its main taxiway jammed with airliners the centerline lights out, and conducting all communications via a single "simplex" radio channel was just going have some kind of mishap. It was inevitable that someone would die that day. It would have been a miracle if someone hadn't (died). I think the air controllers knew it.
That's probably true. It was said (maybe you read this too) that the Spanish chose the location because they misread or misunderstood a report which stated this would be the worst location for an airport, and instead read this as "best location." The same is true, I believe, for Funchal airport in Portugal. My friend tells me only that side of the island is always windy. Have you seen the videos for that one on a windy day? You might think twice about landing there.
@cchris874 There are some great videos here on Tenerife "Norte" (Los Rodeos) apparently shot by the clueless Spaniards. That place is the worst airport I have ever seen. There is a constant haze, the airport is in an extremely dilapidated actually scary) condition and someone is apparently living directly south of the runway in the landing approach. And of course the island weather is famously mercurial.
There's some important information missing, specifically, the nonstandard tower wording used in communicating to KLM before its takeoff, and the radio overlap as the tower told KLM to be sure they waited, right as PanAm radioed in to make sure the tower knew they were still on the runway.
@JeremyMcCracken That is correct. Some crucial calls were garbled because of simultaneous transmission, and that's how the 3 main actors (the 2 captains and the tower controller) came to form 3 different mental pictures of what was happening. Very sad. However, the KLM crew never received anything like a take-off clearance.
I might agree with that. But I reserve my main wrath for the damn system that thought it was perfectly acceptable to push 600 human beings out onto an active runway, shrouded in fog, lacking ground radar and use it simultaneously as a taxiway. Something's seriously wrong with this picture. It didn't help matters that the airport was built on the worst site of the island, and that ATC were more interested in listening to a soccer match at the moment of impact.
His eagerness to take off was motivated in part by labor laws that had recently been passed by the Dutch. Keeping his plane airborne past a certain hour would result in his crew being overworked and the pilot being imprisoned for the violation. If KLM had ruled to abide by the rules and stay put for the evening, hundreds of passengers would need to be given accommodations that didn't exist on tiny Tenerife and flight delays through the system.
por causa do acidente não se usa "Holding" pra não confundirem "Rolling"... por isso agora usam "Maintem".... falta de atenção é foda, ainda mais na aviação....
Van Zantten was ultimately responsible but partial blame was on the controllers as well. KLM's clearance was skewed by non standard calls and a clearance comment to a beacon. Van Zantten asked for clearance to take off then the tower cleared them to the Papa Beacon. Then the tower told them to standby. Van Zantten did not heed to his co-pilot Klass Meurs' questioning weather the Pan Am plane had actually cleared the runway by taking the exit they were instructed to.
This video is a very brief video and left out lots of details. For instance, though the KLM pilots made a couple of mistakes, they cannot be blamed for the crash because they were told to not start takeoff by the control tower. This didnt go through though because the pan am plane said something at the same time so the klm pilot only heard a whistle. KLM airlines, however, ended up taking responsibility for the crash.
if you're not cleared for takeoff, your' not cleared for takeoff. End of story. You're taught that on day one. Theres a major difference between departure clearance and takeoff clearance. Even though the Pan Am plane wan't where it was supposed to be, he had not called cleared of the active, and the tower knew that proving that they did not give takeoff clearance. KLM can be blamed.
@d0rkiishchris it was miscommunication due to two people talking at once and othe r languages and other commands that are not allowed today it was everyone fault [atc, klm, pan am]
I am one of the Fire fighters whos spotted the Clipper Victor Burning when the fog started to reduce. I took few jet engine blades from both planes as a sovineir!!
Yeah, the only survivors were on the Pan Am plane (everyone on KLM died) and there were 61 survivors; the co-pilot, two flight attendants, and 58 passengers.
in 1975 we had flown on this same KLM plane from Amsterdam to New York...I still have the route map that was passed around...a different pilot but the same airplane. Human error was the problem here.
@dutchfreaker Don't worry. Since the crash they have built a modern airport. I'm sure you'll be fine. The island looks lovely. As they say, any publicity is good publicity.
Super video! Even if there are not actual scenes from the accident site you can feel like you were actual there.Perfect combination between 3D graphic, photos and story.
we the people are always in a hurry.We don't know to pause and enjoy life.We also love money and put it first before our lives and safetiness.We love paper so much...we love evil..that's why we die .Instead of taking care of pilots and people 's lives we care about fuel and money.WE ARE ALL CRAZY.WE LOVE EVIL MONEY !!!
Nice re-creation, but did anyone notice that it was the wrong Clipper used? "Victor" was the one that crashes here. "Maid of the Seas" doesn't see it's fate until Lockerbie in 11 years time. (And yes I realize that probably is all the creator had to work with- I'm just pointing my plane-nerdy-ness out :)
Agreed. Clipper Victor was crashed into, which was Pan-Am's first 747, originally named Clipper Young America, I think, and, coincidentally, piloted by Captain VICTOR Grubbs. I keep watching this and other disasters and try to make them turn out differently--but they don't. They are merely, but importantly, teaching moments. Accidents happen because of more than one mistake happening at a time. The terrorists got more than they expected on this one.
Captain van Zanten took off without explicit permission because he was worried that another fog delay would result in his crew exceeding mandatory work duty time limits and thus having to have a mandatory rest period.
i Blame the size of the airport, it should have been built bigger in the 1st place, because if it was as big as the one in tenerife is now, they would have handled it.
We can't blame any of the pilots. On this fatheful day 27th of March 1977 all went wrong from the flight control to the pilots and it was a heavy fog.
Fuck that. Sorry man but I disagree. Sure, there was a lack of communication with PA, sure there was a fog, sure ATC was overwhelmed. It was VanZanten's fault. He left the button without clearance to do so. ATC knew this, the first officer and engineer knew this, and so did he. In the end, it doesn't matter about the fog, or "third from your left- 1-2-3." You DON'T TAKE OFF. WITHOUT PERMISSION. EVER. At least the piece of shit died and was able to watch his death unfold before his own eyes.
It is very easy to blame Van Zanten, and yes you are right about he gave full throttle before starting permission in the fog. But there were many things who went wrong that day, heavy fog, terror treats, stress, language misunderstanding, Spanish-talking flight-controllers and so on
Oh of course- the idiot captain was the primary reason though. This is of course why KLM eventually accepted responsibility and issued- i think it was around minimum $600,000 to each victim's family
No, I just know how commercial aviation works, BOY. Of course he didn't intend on crashing his plane. The Data recorders can prove however that VanZanten did in fact know that he had not received clearance. I did think that PA was clear of the runway, but he was in a hurry, agitated and on a major power trip. Leaving the button without permission to do so is grounds for criminal investigation and termination of job today. You just don't do it.
No no no! Its the KLMs fault becuse they were told to wait and they did not wait. The captain put the plane to full throttle. Im sorry to disapoint you but you have to accept your airlines stupidity...
There is no blaming "airlines" here! There is nothing wrong with KLM, nor with Pan Am... Sheez.. If one person makes a mistake, that has nothing to do with the company he works for...
Aaaand you fail at life... Looks like JetlinerXPilot schooled you already. If that were the case, aviation rules might as well state that when an aircraft misses it's exit and another plane is waiting to take off, that aircraft must die. Now. "You had your chance to turn- and now you DIE!!!!" Logic.... o_0
Nicely done although you did suddenly show a the Pan-Am jumbo to be a 747-400 at one point which was a bit random! Otherwise it was inspirational, I've been wanting to do a similar film myself for a while but I don't think I could do as well as you have :)
lol I like how you mixed it with fsx :P
CoolMCVids 1 month ago
This is a perfectly epic fail mixed up with a flight simulator, photos, and also my bottle of fanta! LOL
MobiusSpy 1 month ago
@paolowilblu What in the world?! This is the worst avation disaster in history and you're asking for the song?!
strocman 6 months ago 3
Stupid Dutch investigators. Exit 3 is impossible for a 747 to turn! it is only 45 degrees. whereas Exit 4 is 135 degrees and its perfectly possible.
strocman 6 months ago 5
R.I.P. all the victims !
And to those who come up with evil comments about "enjoying to see VZ burning alive" : you are SICK ! Nobody deserves to die this way . VZ made his mistakes on that unfortunate day , but there have been many other reasons and causes which led to the disaster .
NaturalHeaven 7 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Why doesn't the reenactment show the burning fuel enter enter KLM's cockpit so we can enjoy watching Captain Van Zanten burn to death?
RK831 7 months ago
@pharao707 How do you know he was blond?
NoSpeechForTheDumb 8 months ago
"nothing else matters" - metallica
shayner555 8 months ago
wath is the title of the song at the end? Thank you...
paolowilblu 9 months ago
@pharao707 You're sick.
walkingblind06 9 months ago
Everybody wants to blame the KLM crew, and that is certainly understandable. -But for a minute, think about that crew; realize that there are always a few more hands on the throttles than in the cockpit, realize that a Spanish ATC was communicating to a Dutch crew in English, realize that an act of terrorism brought the two planes to the island in the first place, realize that unfavorable weather conditions obstructed the view of the ensuing moments to come. Hindsight is 20/20.
theschoolofchuck 9 months ago 2
@theschoolofchuck The language barrier should not be an issue. if you want to be a pilot for a major airline or an ATC you have to speak and write fluent English. It is the international language of aviation.
monstahhh12 7 months ago
GAY VIDEO IS GAY
jackzvid 10 months ago
The captain did a mistake. he should have either stopped or moved out from the right of the runway. and ATC is not allowed to clear 2 places to be in one runway
MrMzUbra 11 months ago
Woa
alyemenia 11 months ago
All those lives wasted because of pre historic material and bad organisation.
BROCKLESNARFAN1980 1 year ago
It's remarkable to me that the Dutch investigators first tried to pin the blame on the Pan-Am crew. They were harshly critical of the Pan-Am crew's failure to turn off at the correct place. What an absolute failure of common sense!! "Make bloody sure you turn off at the right place, in case one of our pilots decides to take off w/o clearance b/c he's in a fucking hurry!!!" Wow!!! That's powerful stupidity.
At least lessons were learned from this.
vonkruel 1 year ago 11
@vonkruel lol (even though the horrific crash and loss of life is hardly funny...)
jman280292 11 months ago
@vonkruel I totally agree the Dutch act as if their STAR Pilot did nothing wrong but anyone who flies a plane knows that "Flying 101" You must get take off clearance which is not ATC clearance. Van Zantan was an ASSHOLE to begin with I wouldn't have flown a kite with his dumbass much less a 747.
Bubs1469 1 month ago
@Bubs1469 The co-pilots KNEW there was a problem too - you can see that in the transcript. My attitude towards VZ has softened a bit, because yes he fucked up massively but he also did pay the ultimate price for it (loss of life & ruined reputation). This was a cultural problem too -- the Captain was the "king of the plane", and you better not question him. That's changed, and there were other positive changes that came out of this too - paid for by people's lives.
vonkruel 1 month ago
@vonkruel tell me about it... It almost makes me ashamed that I lived here in The Hague for 8 years...
divineguy321 1 week ago
Sure, Hitler was a mass murderer, but he did it because he wanted to make best for his country (I'm not saying it was good). But Van Zanten killed many because oh his own fucking sake.
WarHammerGmer 1 year ago
la culpa la tuvo el M.P.I.A.C
POCOLATEMANDALE 1 year ago
WAIT KLM GO pan am
MASON1246 1 year ago
The Pan Am 747 is the one bombed over Lockerbie
justnukeit 1 year ago
why didnt he just wait?? LISTEN
bizzybozzy1 1 year ago
Wow, Fs2004
TheAsustop 1 year ago
Pan American was the first major airliner created.
theHRproductions 1 year ago
Pan am went out of business because a terrorist bomb exploded on the airplane and the victims loved ones sued the airline. Pan am wasn't doing too well anyway so when the terrorist bomb happened, pan American went outta business. Did you nknow
theHRproductions 1 year ago
This is 100% the fault of the Dutch pilot. Yes the Pan Am didn't turn off when they were supposed to but all this did was mean they were on the runway for an extra few seconds. The KLM pilot pushed the throttle without ATC clearance so full blame is on him.
kaiballa 1 year ago
some of this was fsx.
shoykhetm 1 year ago
Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten was one of the best Pilots of the KLM.
The best Pilots do misstakes, too.
R.I.P
Hickmaann90 1 year ago
Look ladies and Gentleman...even a Student Pilot knows NOT to take off with NOT "TAKE OFF" clearance. Specific instructions": Departure clearance is different and †he PIC should have known better.....ignore the fog and else that happened, fog, non standard ATC communication, fog, one runway, etc. NTSB ruled on †his. PIC is at fault BIG TIME.
memsermann 1 year ago
Still heartbreaking today. So many 'bad' problems coalescing at once--fog, diversion, fuel logged jet, etc..all the makings of disaster, but the culmination still is most haunting because of the KLM pilot's decision to supercede clearance and the poor copilot not taking control (well, so much for 'seniority' when your dead), one simple last act that could have made all the difference...God how sad...
pecheleleaw 1 year ago
well,if i was the co pilot,i would stop my captain from T/off w/out clearance even it coast my job,at least i would be a live and,may god bless all the victims!
solomonpilot767 1 year ago
I hope those two air traffic controllers are watching a soccer game in hell.
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
Notice how the dumbfucks in the control tower forgot to tell the rescue workers about the wrecked Pan Am 747 on the runway AFTER the crash and let hundreds in the Pan Am plane burn to death. Criminally stupid.
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
@faffaflunkie
"forgot to tell the rescue workers about the. . Pan Am. . . AFTER the crash."
Did ATC know anything about which of the two planes had crashed, much less both of them, until after the rescuers got to them?
cchris874 1 year ago
@cchris874 They certainly knew that they had sent two planes taxiing down the same runway (a legal but dangerous practice). They would have had (or should have known) that two planes were involved in the crash. The assholes in the control tower, by not alerting the rescue crews that there was a second plane, doomed hundreds in the Pan Am jet who initially survived. The whole incident shows what your life is worth to an airline. By the way KLM is still doing business as "Delta".
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
@faffaflunkie
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In the confusion of the moment, I wouldn't be too harsh on the controllers for that - it's somewhat speculative. It's also speculative whether the earlier arrival of rescue vehicles would have saved hundreds. On the other hand ATC can be called to task for many other things, as you mention. As for KLM, I wouldn't conclude much of anything as their overall record is extremely good, and excluding regionals and charters, no major crashes since the 1960s.
regards
Chris
cchris874 1 year ago
@cchris874 You must mean no OTHER major crashes since the 1960's. Hundreds of the soon to be deceased passengers on the Pan Am 747 survived the initial impact. Most of the passengers died when the extremely hot fire consumed all the oxygen they (the decedents on the Pan Am flight) were breathing. A prompt rescue would have made all the difference. As it was the 61 survivors had to fend for themselves. Maybe the Pan Am flight made an error but the black mark (and the bill) went to KLM.
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
@faffaflunkie
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"You must mean no OTHER major crashes"
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Yes, as I stated, excluding charters, as the KLM was an "unscheduled" flight. In any case, to go 33 years w/o a major event is pretty damn good safety.
As far as the rescue, again, having looked at plane crashes for decades it's highly speculative to say an earlier arrival by rescuers would have made the difference: look at the KLM. Everyone probably survived the impact. But no one could have been saved them, regardless.
cheers
cchris874 1 year ago
@cchris874 The KLM "charter" was an actual KLM flight, with a KLM pilot and crew, so KLM gets no relief on that point. It is highly unlikely that ANYONE survived the KLM crash (at least for more than a few minutes). The only thing I can add is that KLM pilot, Van Zanten, was so malfeasant (criminally so) that it may assuage some of the blame due the air traffic controllers and the Pan Am flight crew. If this was a U.S. airport, Van Zanten (had he survived) would have been charged with murder.
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
@faffaflunkie
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"at least more than a few minutes"
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That's what I meant. The KLM pax all survived the IMPACT. But the fire was far too violent and rapid to get a rescue. SO - what it says is that you can't say that just because a rescue truck gets there on time, it can save hundreds.
As far as Van Zanten the murderer, there's where I part company with a lot of people. He THOUGHT he had the clearance. It's UNTHINKABLE that he decided to ignore the rules. Ask any commercial pilot.
cchris874 1 year ago
@cchris874 According to the laws in the U.S., Van Zanten, by the fact that he intended to violate labor law by taking off early (remember he was about to go off duty) committed murder in the same way as a bank robber commits murder if someone dies in the course of a robbery. It does not matter that he was only partially to blame (although KLM paid the entire civil judgement). He could have easily been convicted in any state or federal court of 583 counts of murder.
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
@faffaflunkie
- "intended to violate labor law by taking off early"
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I've lost you. What do you mean by he "intended" to take off early? Or are you referring to the fact that he took off w/o the proper clearance? If so, we have absolutely no way to prove this was intentional.
Chris
cchris874 1 year ago
@cchris874 Had Van Zanten survived and been brought to court the murder case would have hinged on the fact that the Dutch crew was minutes from being taken out of service and thus the KLM pilot (Van Zanten) was motivated to start his takeoff roll early. Van Zanten was clearly aware of labor law and what going out of service would cost his airline in dollars. What you are referring to ("non standard phrases" or the fact that the simplex communication was "stepped on") would only be a defense.
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
@faffaflunkie
Hi,
I'm aware of all this. As I said, there's no way to prove it. He may have made a conscious decision to take off early. But FAR more likely, he mistook the airways clearance for a T/O clearance. A murder charge requires proof of intent. The proof here is lacking. It's at best one speculative scenario. Taking off mistakenly has happened before. Trying to T/O w/o clearance is hard to swallow when you have two crew members as witnesses who will report you.
Cheers
Chris
cchris874 1 year ago
@cchris874 "Exhibit A" in this case would have been the bill for 55,000 gallons of jet fuel paid for by KLM on Tenerife. Why would Van Zanten take on that much fuel for a twenty minute flight to the main island UNLESS he intended to skirt the regulations on hours of service. Here we have "motive" and "opportunity" and only the third prong of intent has to be satisfied to convict. Assuming he had survived , think of how badly the authorities in the U.S. would have liked to get a hold of him.
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
@faffaflunkie
If I ever am in a plane crash and need a lawyer I will be sure to contact you immediately. IF I survive that is, and don't have a death wish that leaves me and 582 others dead.
There is something else very sinister here:
-
Pan Van
Am Zan ten.
A little arithmetic shows that if you take the "ten" from Van Zan ten, and subtract 4, the 1st part of the KLM flight #, you get 6. The 2nd # of PAs flt # is 7, subtracting its 1st #, 1=6. Finally, take the last # of the PA # = 666.
cchris874 1 year ago
@cchris874 First of all, that didn't even make sense. Secondly, that paragraph was so elaborate that you'd be a fool to believe that it had any merit whatsoever. You can make ANYTHING come out to 666 if you really wanted to, and apparently, you really do. Thirdly, you're an idiot for believing in conspiracies like that. And LASTLY, the number of the devil is 616, not 666. Common misconception. Look it up.
You suck.
drone713 1 year ago
@drone713
True. But you gotta admit everything else I wrote is extremely intelligent, well informed, balanced and rational., unlike faffy who thinks Van Zanten was a murderer. A little over the top, don't you think? And unlike most of the junk posted here. :)
cchris874 1 year ago
@cchris874 ...well that was a rather calm response considering I just tried to start a flame war haha.
drone713 1 year ago
@drone713
We can still have one if you want. Except I just don't think I have the genetic makeup for one. For instance, I would have let the British keep taxing the US back in 1776. (I'm talking here as a Bostonian, mind you.) Maybe we'd (US) be better off today (instead of betta off). Certainly there would have been no PaAm 1736 to crash into.
Cheers
cchris874 1 year ago
@drone713
I mean, what I'm really trying to say is, is it worth shedding blood over a few bucks?
cchris874 1 year ago
@cchris874 Well irrespective of your arithmetic, I do believe what transpired on that day at Los Rodeos airport was "evil".
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
@faffaflunkie
It certainly wasn't pretty. Each person reacts differently to something like this. Some find comfort in a black-and-white sense of outrage (I'm not saying you). I find it by accepting that this is simply the nature of this world. People, no matter how well intentioned, will always occassionally fuck up. Period. End of discussion. If Tenerife hadn't happened, nature would have found some other loophole to inflict horror on us. Blame won't change that basic fact.
Cheers
cchris874 1 year ago
@cchris874 Well, tiny Los Rodeos for years was an accident waiting to happen, with over 1000 fatalities to its name. As for the Dutch, they have always alleged it was the Pan Am flight that violated the right of way as the KLM plane technically had priority in that instance. Obviously the people at KLM were devastated, and Tenerife and then Lockerbie eventually ended up putting Pan Am out of business.
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
@faffaflunkie
-
In fact Los Rodeos was an accident that already had happened (3 times I believe) before 1977.The deficiencies of the Spanish ATC system had been widely noted at the time , which was operated by the military at the time. It certainly contributed to the 1980 Dan Air crash as well.
-
I don't know where the story came from that the Dutch blamed it on Pan Am. But they definitely did not do so in their own accident report, which tries to argue no one was really at fault !!
cchris874 1 year ago
@faffaflunkie
-
"Pan Am out of business"
-
I don't think Tenerife had anything to do with that, though Lockerbie probably didn't help. It's ironic that Pan Am used to boast throughout the 70s "The World's Most Experienced Airline" at a time when they were having crash after crash - and KLM, , calling themsleves the "Reliable Dutch," noting they were the oldest operating airline, would then both be in the worst crash of all.
The KLM name, I believe, is being phased out later this year.
cchris874 1 year ago
@cchris874 I was just commenting on what you said, that if it was not KLM v. Pan Am it would have been something else. Los Rodeos, with it's absurd location in the highlands, its main taxiway jammed with airliners the centerline lights out, and conducting all communications via a single "simplex" radio channel was just going have some kind of mishap. It was inevitable that someone would die that day. It would have been a miracle if someone hadn't (died). I think the air controllers knew it.
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
@faffaflunkie
That's probably true. It was said (maybe you read this too) that the Spanish chose the location because they misread or misunderstood a report which stated this would be the worst location for an airport, and instead read this as "best location." The same is true, I believe, for Funchal airport in Portugal. My friend tells me only that side of the island is always windy. Have you seen the videos for that one on a windy day? You might think twice about landing there.
cchris874 1 year ago
@cchris874 There are some great videos here on Tenerife "Norte" (Los Rodeos) apparently shot by the clueless Spaniards. That place is the worst airport I have ever seen. There is a constant haze, the airport is in an extremely dilapidated actually scary) condition and someone is apparently living directly south of the runway in the landing approach. And of course the island weather is famously mercurial.
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
1:55- It says "Clipper Maid of the Seas," the plane later used for Pan Am 103. However, Flight 1736 used the 747 "Clipper Victor."
arithebomb 1 year ago
There's some important information missing, specifically, the nonstandard tower wording used in communicating to KLM before its takeoff, and the radio overlap as the tower told KLM to be sure they waited, right as PanAm radioed in to make sure the tower knew they were still on the runway.
JeremyMcCracken 1 year ago
@JeremyMcCracken That is correct. Some crucial calls were garbled because of simultaneous transmission, and that's how the 3 main actors (the 2 captains and the tower controller) came to form 3 different mental pictures of what was happening. Very sad. However, the KLM crew never received anything like a take-off clearance.
pchantreau 1 year ago
is that Xplane
Living4HereAfter 1 year ago
this is fsx
gravoypogi 1 year ago
@gravoypogi This is fs2004 ;)
Because i know that because boaz is a friend of mine ;)
mitchellboon 1 year ago
thats fucked up !
GamingTard 1 year ago
Please NEVER AGAIN....!!!
dd241070 1 year ago
@dd241070
I might agree with that. But I reserve my main wrath for the damn system that thought it was perfectly acceptable to push 600 human beings out onto an active runway, shrouded in fog, lacking ground radar and use it simultaneously as a taxiway. Something's seriously wrong with this picture. It didn't help matters that the airport was built on the worst site of the island, and that ATC were more interested in listening to a soccer match at the moment of impact.
cchris874 1 year ago
@dd241070
Sorry, the last comment was in response to hwyfan
cchris874 1 year ago
Van Zanten was at fault here.
His eagerness to take off was motivated in part by labor laws that had recently been passed by the Dutch. Keeping his plane airborne past a certain hour would result in his crew being overworked and the pilot being imprisoned for the violation. If KLM had ruled to abide by the rules and stay put for the evening, hundreds of passengers would need to be given accommodations that didn't exist on tiny Tenerife and flight delays through the system.
hwyfan 1 year ago
nobody realizes that if there was no bomb, this wouldn't have happened :9
wierasa 1 year ago
This was a tragic accident but it was due to the staff's fault, they shouldn't have accelerated without permission.
FilMarck 1 year ago
good job. Thank you.
dreamlover32 1 year ago
6:46... EPIC FAIL lol
coolster450 2 years ago
FVGH
marottt 2 years ago
Very nice job man, very good. What a sad story anyway...
Julman75 2 years ago
amazing to hear metallica, nothing else matters at the end in honour of the dead.. rest in peace all who lost there lives..
cezzyowen 2 years ago
Where do you download airport?
soshiwong 2 years ago
Hey that plane went right through the other with no damage.
tryithere 2 years ago
WOW! Clever how you used FS2004/X to do the aircraft! 5*
FS2004looney 2 years ago
(7:20) Aren't KLM's engines meant to hit Pan Am's upper deck?
GC0020 2 years ago 10
@GC0020 yes but they used fsx so its hard
wierasa 2 years ago
por causa do acidente não se usa "Holding" pra não confundirem "Rolling"... por isso agora usam "Maintem".... falta de atenção é foda, ainda mais na aviação....
skullfcc 2 years ago
Bad year all way round. Elvis died in Aug. and I married my first ex- wife too
terry9911 2 years ago 3
lol what happened between u n ur wife?
kika01296 2 years ago
Van Zantten was ultimately responsible but partial blame was on the controllers as well. KLM's clearance was skewed by non standard calls and a clearance comment to a beacon. Van Zantten asked for clearance to take off then the tower cleared them to the Papa Beacon. Then the tower told them to standby. Van Zantten did not heed to his co-pilot Klass Meurs' questioning weather the Pan Am plane had actually cleared the runway by taking the exit they were instructed to.
beyondonethousand 2 years ago
its captain van zaten that is fully responsible even under these conditions, very bad call on his part!!!!!!
kso747 2 years ago
This video is a very brief video and left out lots of details. For instance, though the KLM pilots made a couple of mistakes, they cannot be blamed for the crash because they were told to not start takeoff by the control tower. This didnt go through though because the pan am plane said something at the same time so the klm pilot only heard a whistle. KLM airlines, however, ended up taking responsibility for the crash.
parthor1 2 years ago
if you're not cleared for takeoff, your' not cleared for takeoff. End of story. You're taught that on day one. Theres a major difference between departure clearance and takeoff clearance. Even though the Pan Am plane wan't where it was supposed to be, he had not called cleared of the active, and the tower knew that proving that they did not give takeoff clearance. KLM can be blamed.
d0rkiishchris 2 years ago 22
@d0rkiishchris exactly, and sadly KLM does have 100% of the blame, as far as the crew goes.
knuckles15961 1 year ago
@d0rkiishchris What is the purpose of laying blame. Its in the past, meaning you cant change the outcome. All we can do is learn from the mistakes.
NTBushPilot 1 year ago
@d0rkiishchris it was miscommunication due to two people talking at once and othe r languages and other commands that are not allowed today it was everyone fault [atc, klm, pan am]
cool2040coasters 1 year ago
@d0rkiishchris And was - the investigation states Cpt van Z as at fault, and KLM admitted it.
ShadowXII 1 year ago 3
@d0rkiishchris no kiddn!
solomonpilot767 1 year ago
I am one of the Fire fighters whos spotted the Clipper Victor Burning when the fog started to reduce. I took few jet engine blades from both planes as a sovineir!!
dilubabaya 2 years ago
No you're not you're only 15 :P
parthor1 2 years ago
lier!
1howcrazy 2 years ago
jUST KIDDING
dilubabaya 2 years ago
ok then
1howcrazy 2 years ago
Real sad! Unnecessary loss of precious life!
Lagusaya2 2 years ago
Video is a bit non realistic :(
The Pan Am plane was already turning in his taxiway when he saw the plane
Dustakiller8 2 years ago
Comment removed
cherryredcutie 2 years ago
Yeah, the only survivors were on the Pan Am plane (everyone on KLM died) and there were 61 survivors; the co-pilot, two flight attendants, and 58 passengers.
88RobLam 2 years ago
THIS STUPIT GRAPHIGHT
hibaiqbal122 2 years ago
in 1975 we had flown on this same KLM plane from Amsterdam to New York...I still have the route map that was passed around...a different pilot but the same airplane. Human error was the problem here.
granskare 2 years ago
..... ye right.
patrickmanning94 2 years ago
the makers of this show must be on a tight tight buget. because it is fsx. CGI must have caused to much!
gmjyuir2 2 years ago
this is a rip off the real show is amazing the name is seconds from disaster
DangerousMusicProd 2 years ago
the US version is the deadliest plane crash from pbs
gmjyuir2 2 years ago
its not fsx!
fannypenis 2 years ago
Who was waiting on the runway for no reason? and why would the KLM plane do a 180 degree spin?
The air traffic controller had no reason to be impatient and rude. He could have caused the KLM pilot to get aggravated. 1-2-3!
What is tragic is that 32 years have gone by - and we sit here at out computers thinking we understand it all... and have it all figured.
55 tons of extra fuel!
Blinding fog!
atc wrong signals!
Just say a prayer for the victims who never left that airport alive.
SHARRAH2008 2 years ago
any survivers at all ???
tommystros 2 years ago
61 people survived from the panam flight.Nobody survived from KLM.
100isthebest 2 years ago
It was a bad incident but this is FSX he is using.....
NCONiall 2 years ago
damn ik wist niet dat jij deze video had gemaakt.
XD
Animewolken 2 years ago
this issnt cool ... im going to tenerife in 2 hours...
dutchfreaker 2 years ago
Land je ook op Los Rodejos (Tenerife Noord) dan? Of ga je misschien toch naar vliegveld Reina Sofia (Tenerife Zuid)?
railwayfan1988 2 years ago
@dutchfreaker Don't worry. Since the crash they have built a modern airport. I'm sure you'll be fine. The island looks lovely. As they say, any publicity is good publicity.
faffaflunkie 1 year ago
Super video! Even if there are not actual scenes from the accident site you can feel like you were actual there.Perfect combination between 3D graphic, photos and story.
GRares 2 years ago
Very good video there pal. RIP to all those who died .
ChrisAT1992 2 years ago
Being impatient can cost lives
I should know
And still, people don't learn...
DuchessJulia 2 years ago
R.I.P. to the people who died in this most awful accident.
Batavian187 2 years ago 3
I Think So Yes That FSX
Butt I Don't Bieleve that a 747 from Gran Carnias ( my english is not very good )
Its 25 or 50 Miles away from Tenerife!
I Can Beleve that a 747 from amsterdam have take off thats a big distance from the netherlands.
BUTT THE 747 PANAMA GRAN CARNIAS ! THATS WERD
I think that a 747 want take off Gran Carnias because a large number of people think I forests to Tenerife.
I am not an aircraft expert but I'm only 11 years ^ ^
Animewolken 2 years ago
we the people are always in a hurry.We don't know to pause and enjoy life.We also love money and put it first before our lives and safetiness.We love paper so much...we love evil..that's why we die .Instead of taking care of pilots and people 's lives we care about fuel and money.WE ARE ALL CRAZY.WE LOVE EVIL MONEY !!!
bondita 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
niggas got bodied.
ArnoldisMyNigga 2 years ago
RIP guys
lozzasufc 2 years ago 3
Nice re-creation, but did anyone notice that it was the wrong Clipper used? "Victor" was the one that crashes here. "Maid of the Seas" doesn't see it's fate until Lockerbie in 11 years time. (And yes I realize that probably is all the creator had to work with- I'm just pointing my plane-nerdy-ness out :)
TannerFehr 2 years ago
Agreed. Clipper Victor was crashed into, which was Pan-Am's first 747, originally named Clipper Young America, I think, and, coincidentally, piloted by Captain VICTOR Grubbs. I keep watching this and other disasters and try to make them turn out differently--but they don't. They are merely, but importantly, teaching moments. Accidents happen because of more than one mistake happening at a time. The terrorists got more than they expected on this one.
AlpineJoy 2 years ago
its that a fsx? or they use demo crash by computer
mark76533 2 years ago
Captain van Zanten took off without explicit permission because he was worried that another fog delay would result in his crew exceeding mandatory work duty time limits and thus having to have a mandatory rest period.
nicspic 2 years ago
i Blame the size of the airport, it should have been built bigger in the 1st place, because if it was as big as the one in tenerife is now, they would have handled it.
PunkRockMJ 2 years ago
It was just used for small airplanes as it is not the main airport of Canary Islands, why doing a huge airport if you are not going to use it?
And, if you have to choose between a small and safe airport and another one which has been said to be terrorist target, what would you do?
ravelin1875 2 years ago 3
they have to divert airport because of a bomb scare on a bigger airport
jarjarbinx79 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
It didn't collide :(
2351156 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Flight simulator LOL
einarknutsen 2 years ago
yeh
Stoked1994 2 years ago
JetlinerXPilotXFSX I BET YOU HAVENT EVEN SEEN THE MOVIE SO YOU DONT KNOW AND THATS WHY YOU ARE SAYING BAD THINGS
KLMPILOTS 2 years ago
its the airlines stupidity because of this pilot?
spudlymac 2 years ago
What is the song of the end of the video?
LeozinDJ 2 years ago 2
This song is Metallica's Nothing Else Matters
cocolisocolchonero 2 years ago 3
Thank you, very much!
;)
LeozinDJ 2 years ago
We can't blame any of the pilots. On this fatheful day 27th of March 1977 all went wrong from the flight control to the pilots and it was a heavy fog.
kzbxvz 2 years ago 3
Well said sir :) This was a day of many disasters. Nice to see someone has done their research!
tjf4375 2 years ago 4
It seems that some people out there are questioning our theories and facts further :( :/ :)!!!
kzbxvz 2 years ago
Fuck that. Sorry man but I disagree. Sure, there was a lack of communication with PA, sure there was a fog, sure ATC was overwhelmed. It was VanZanten's fault. He left the button without clearance to do so. ATC knew this, the first officer and engineer knew this, and so did he. In the end, it doesn't matter about the fog, or "third from your left- 1-2-3." You DON'T TAKE OFF. WITHOUT PERMISSION. EVER. At least the piece of shit died and was able to watch his death unfold before his own eyes.
TannerFehr 2 years ago
It is very easy to blame Van Zanten, and yes you are right about he gave full throttle before starting permission in the fog. But there were many things who went wrong that day, heavy fog, terror treats, stress, language misunderstanding, Spanish-talking flight-controllers and so on
kzbxvz 2 years ago
Oh of course- the idiot captain was the primary reason though. This is of course why KLM eventually accepted responsibility and issued- i think it was around minimum $600,000 to each victim's family
TannerFehr 2 years ago 4
Wow...thats some serious issues you have there.
Don´t make it sound like he wanted to crash his plane.
As you can see it was clearly a combination of factors and Van Zanten thinking he had clearance when he didn´t is one of them.
You have issues boy.
Batavian187 2 years ago
No, I just know how commercial aviation works, BOY. Of course he didn't intend on crashing his plane. The Data recorders can prove however that VanZanten did in fact know that he had not received clearance. I did think that PA was clear of the runway, but he was in a hurry, agitated and on a major power trip. Leaving the button without permission to do so is grounds for criminal investigation and termination of job today. You just don't do it.
TannerFehr 2 years ago
...excuse me, let me rephrase that: I think he did assume PA was clear..
TannerFehr 2 years ago
You people are dum it is the Pan Am's fault because they could not find the exit
KLMPILOTS 2 years ago
No no no! Its the KLMs fault becuse they were told to wait and they did not wait. The captain put the plane to full throttle. Im sorry to disapoint you but you have to accept your airlines stupidity...
JetlinerXPilotXFSX 2 years ago
There is no blaming "airlines" here! There is nothing wrong with KLM, nor with Pan Am... Sheez.. If one person makes a mistake, that has nothing to do with the company he works for...
MyBooh15 2 years ago
Aaaand you fail at life... Looks like JetlinerXPilot schooled you already. If that were the case, aviation rules might as well state that when an aircraft misses it's exit and another plane is waiting to take off, that aircraft must die. Now. "You had your chance to turn- and now you DIE!!!!" Logic.... o_0
TannerFehr 2 years ago
Nicely done although you did suddenly show a the Pan-Am jumbo to be a 747-400 at one point which was a bit random! Otherwise it was inspirational, I've been wanting to do a similar film myself for a while but I don't think I could do as well as you have :)
tjf4375 2 years ago
i thought the airport in teneriffe as reania sophia
buffdaddy76 3 years ago
tenerife has two airports, one at the north, los rodeos and a second at the south called reina sofia (queen sophia)
lasuelen 2 years ago
horrific - RIP everyone
stonecandie 3 years ago
STUPID KLM OFFICER.
The greatest air disaster with 589 deads in the history.
tangocharlie006 3 years ago
1977....not a good year to be a Van Zant flying on a plane.
March '77: Cpt. Van Zant dies in this crash.
October '77: Ronnie Van Zant (from Lynrd Skynard) dies in an unrelated crash.
Coincidence?
protosswannabe 3 years ago
What has the Dutch Captain Jacob Veldhuyzen Van Zanten got to do with Ronnie Van Zant?
Their names aren't even close...
SAHBfan 3 years ago
This is why pilots should pay attentiion to the radio towers of what they say. If u didn't you will may end up like the KLM
Kirbyblue96 3 years ago
im goingthere for my holidays
kisius2000 3 years ago
KLM's most senior pilot, huh.....He flew like a 2 year old that day, and because of it, play-time is over!
FEDEXMD11 3 years ago
lol
AdrianMcCVideos 2 years ago