Jacoby-Shermer Debate, 5/10

[1empathy]

Jacoby is like all intelligent theists, they argue for a deist god and tack their religion on as an afterthought.

[dwheel39]

Why aren't "skeptics" like Shermer, who arrogantly ridicule beliefs they don't understand, critical of their OWN beliefs? In these debates i hear so much of "psychological" reasons why people are religious, but this seems to be said in order to dance around the issue. There can be just as many psychological reasons why Shermer is an "agnostic" or whatever he is. What's good for the "delusional" goose is good for the delusional gander :) Atheists seem quite deluded to me.

[hansjaeger1]

man, you religious persons just can't seem to let go and realize how utterly absurd your beliefs are.

Why do you guys need that afterlife ? it' s like you are grieving your own deaths on beforehand and see yourselves lying there in your tombs - forever boxed in that cold sad coffin.

Take a deep breath...you are not going to witness your own deaths. you will just be dead and therefore to dead to mown the fact that you're dead. Death itself just kills the need for afterlives - it's perfect.

[dwheel39]

@hansjaeger1 hmmmmm...and you know there is no afterlife HOW? Where is your "empirical evidence" that consciousness ends in death when there is great wealth of evidence that it doesn't? Too much personal testimony and unexplained phenomenon (like people born blind describing what their family was doing across town while they were diagnosed as clinically dead in a hospital). You don't even know what consciousness is so how can the belief be absurd?

[robotaholic]

@jamestrekky it looks to me like you arrogant know there is a god somehow and I the atheist simply lack a belief due to not enough evidence

[CBALLEN]

I don't think that Shermer really wants the after life to exist,especially after he's been claiming that the reason for the after life doesn't exist.

[Domzdream]

Jacoby just conceded defeat. He just admited that his god isnt necessarily the true god...but there still is a god or gods. What's the point, dude.

[mrniz8]

cant stand televised debates like this. to get just an idea of the depth of the arguments presented on both sides takes much much longer than the few minutes given here, which is why "time" was always called before getting to the bottom of anything. if you're really interested in learning something, try opening a book or two. maybe even do some actual research. discovery requires effort. soap box over.

[Transformers217]

I love that Shermer said "I don't know."

But according to scientists, the Universe did have a beginning. Which means there either had to be a God of some kind, or everything just happened by "accident." Well I don't believe in coincidences, so I think some force out there set everything in motion. And it would have to be God.

That's my conclusion. :)

[andyrooney11]

The first statement/question that Jacoby made in this part of the video was so flawed. Just listen to it again and then ask yourself this, "based on the Christian doctrine a person cannot go to Heaven unless they accept Christ as their Savior. So, what if someone is born in a remote region of the world and they live a proper & honest life but they never hear about God, do they go to heaven or are they damned to hell just because they weren't lucky enough to even know about Jesus?"

[Transformers217]

@andyrooney11 That's not flawed at all. In fact, Jacoby pwned Shermer in the opening statements.

[andyrooney11]

@Transformers217

When I made a statement, I followed that up with evidence that supported it. On the other hand, you made a simplistic statement and you did not even bother to follow that up with any sort of evidence. That argumentative method is indicative of a theistic world view, which is inherently simplistic and flawed.

[Transformers217]

@andyrooney11 All you gave was a subjective opinion. Not real evidence, and no objective facts.

[andyrooney11]

@Transformers217

You are avoiding the question in my original comment. I understand...you either don't have an answer to it or you're ashamed of the answer that you have so you keep it to yourself and avoid the question. I made a comment and I think that there is an important question that needs to be answered. If you continue to ignore it then there is no need for any discussion between you and me.

[Transformers217]

@andyrooney11 I can't answer that question, because I don't know the answer. My only answer is that you should ask God that question, not me.

But the only way to get to God, is through Jesus Christ. That's it.

[andyrooney11]

@Transformers217

You're a slave...you don't know it because you're brainwashed but you're a slave. You do what MEN tell you, NOT God. If you have had some sort of powerful religious experience then it was likely a delusional or hallucinogenic experience. In either case, keep in mind that there are people who have equally powerful feelings/experiences about different gods so it just proves that it is a flaw in the human psyche. I can only tell you this, I can't & I won't force u...FREE YOURSELF

[Transformers217]

@andyrooney11 It probably was a delusion, or an a hallucination. But I can't deny how real it felt. So that's where a lot of my faith comes from.

I freed myself a long time ago. I use to follow the world, but now I follow God. I don't follow any man.

So I'll ask you to free yourself.

[Transformers217]

@andyrooney11 At least that's my advice.

[setmedic]

You're opinion on the first cause would only lead you to be a deist. How then do you infer that that this god of yours care if you eat pork products and who you sleep with and in which position I may add. Think before you say something. The heavens are empty and it shows. If you want to believe in Santa claus that's your bussiness. Just don't ask me to respect you for that.

[taurus454647]

I love when atheists use the flying spaghetti crap. HA HA like this is proof against a deity. Just because people in the past have given different names to the same creating force is totally irrelevant. I believe in a starting force of the universe, which i call GOD. Also infinite regress is foolish. If a GOD really exists is it not possible he exists in a way our feeble minds can't conceive. I would say of course because he is GOD!

[kombajndosalatek]

2:40

VERY GOOD argument

think about it

that kind of thinking by Shremer (whom I like v. much), make everything questionable..

some1 can say his whole way of thinking is just a fruit of cultural environment

[andywaggott]

RAmen brothers. Open all our hearts to his noodly goodness. Long live flying spaghetti monster.

[andyrooney11]

God is bull sh**...but don't you dare fu** with the Flying Spaghetti Monster....I worship that fu**er!

[leeroynaggins]

Ok, GOD is outside of the system....

prove it.

Can't?

Well, it's irrelevant.

[zazhaftw]

"dont go to youtube. Its not good"

</3 :(

[noraacmw]

These kinds of debates can never end. It may shake people's opinions, but an ultimate conclusion is hard to reach.

As Christian, i think it's more spiritual about god than just facts and proves.

Believers are always asked why God exists, it's not something we can list the reasons and convince you. People experienced God's existence. Even though we tell the non-believers, it's probably too ridiculous to consider. That's why to me it's a faith more than a proven fact. Just a thought :D

[NMFUntouchable]

Those who believe in Yaweh are the same who believed in Zeus in ancient Rome. Only when you step outside this can you see it for what it is. It is hard to strip away the conditioning that was done to us as a child and many will never be able to do it. Once you get rid of the fear of hell, the rest falls away so beautifully.

[Thatonedude917]

Yeah, I live in the Bible Belt in the US. It was hard for me to even begin to think that everyone around me is wrong.

I'm the only atheist in this town at the moment.

[thruthem]

The paradox is that so many people yell "Oh God" while enjoying the Big Bang.

[PlanetoftheAtheists]

i was exploring uranus, wiping out klingons, and fell into a black hole

[MetaphysicsAddict]

why is that a paradox? The big bang does not necessitate or support atheism. The big bang says that the universe had a beginning and that it's not eternal. Many scientists had previously believed that the universe is eternal, and the big bang theory says otherwise. But the BB theory doesn't somehow count against theism (or polytheism for that matter).

[daviruiz]

If religion is relative= then God is relative= then morals are relative. The whole argument of absolute truth is relative to what Jacoby believes and this statement is relative.

[oskarin4]

The debate was terribly moderated. Did not allow debaters to exchange ideas when they had a response.

[cyberdaemon]

Let me ask you people a question : lets say god exists , ok ? What does he have ANYTHING to do with bible ? How can it be word of god any more than mickey mouse comic books ? other that there is claim in the bible that says it is writen by god and no more ?

[superfisto]

lol @ don't look at youtube

[oneznzeroz]

Jacoby is not doing a very good job.

[robotaholic]

I loved it when Shermer said "I have the humility to say I Don't Know" - that was music to my ears- I'm tired of so many religious people with supposed "answers" when they don't have ANY honest answers. Shermer was refreshing and honest.

[moncsco]

"I don't know and you don't either. Nobody knows."

[djKap0w]

bingo. Mr. Jacoby, i an impressed that you have the audacity to post this yourself. After having participated in this, (i mean you were THERE!) to even try and spin your arguments as "clear and incisive" OR "persuasive" demonstrates you are embarrassingly oblivious to whats going on.

We still love you though; we all make mistakes. That we learn from them is what counts!

regards!

[jamestrekky]

@robotaholic I don't know? He doesn't know very much but he knows there is no God??? strange. Ignorance of the world should not be music to a person's ears. When you know there is a beginning to the universe and ignore the CAUSE, that is not humility, it is dishonest logic and ignorance.

[HConstantine]

@jamestrekky You thinK there is a cause ? Time expanded out of the initial singularity. Can you tell how causation works without time, since you're positing a cause before time? Or don;t you know? Or do you think it was speaking a spell in Hebrew?

[jamestrekky]

@HConstantine errr, it's just LOGIC. When something 'happens', LOGIC says there is a cause.

It's like when a tree falls down - I'm saying something cause it. Your saying maybe NOT, the tree just fell without a CAUSE. You ask WHAT IF there is no cause before time existed? Then I can ask WHAT IF there is time outside the universe? WHAT IF WHAT IF? Really now, I'm using LOGIC (cause and effect) and you are using WHAT IFs. Can you see?

[HConstantine]

@HConstantine You just don't get it. Time cannot exist outside the universe. There can be no causation without time. Human language can't describe the situation, and logic certainly doesn't apply. Its like trying to convince Strepsiades there is no Zeus.

[5tonyvvvv]

@robotaholic All amino acids in proteins are ‘left-handed’, while all sugars in DNA and RNA, and in the metabolic pathways, are ‘right-handed’.

A 50/50 mixture of left- and right-handed forms is called a racemate or racemic mixture. Which is toxic to life!!.there is ZERO chance of RNA forming by chance or on a primordial earth or even under amazing conditions in labs.and ZERO chemistry to support it..all we do is copy information,thats not creating anything!!..moron atheists !!

[Gazdo01]

@robotaholic I too agree largely with Shermer... I have a strong scientific background and I do believe in God...

But who cares what I BELIEVE is true? I never said is WAS true. Neither did I impose my view on others. Don't you understand the concept of FAITH? You're wrong if you think religious people think they KNOW. There might be religious nuts who think so, but that's not the point. We have FAITH, that's all.

[dwheel39]

@Gazdo01 . . as do atheists...FAITH. But WHICH "faith" is more REASONABLE? How can a view that says order comes from chaos, something comes from nothing and conscious beings came about by some random process of natural selection via mutations,..how can THIS be rational? This is absurd. EVERYTHING in our experience points to INTELLIGENCE. We may squabble over the identity of this being but to say no intelligence brought about ALL intelligence is silly

[Gazdo01]

@dwheel39 You are a living example of someone doing the "appeal to ignorance" fallacy. Because you can't conceive it, you automatically conclude it is impossible. Evolution, for example, shows how complexity can immerge through random mutations and natural selection.

"EVERYTHING in our experience points to INTELLIGENCE"

I would argue that it points to WHAT SEEMS LIKE intelligence. But then again, we might be fooled into thinking this way.

"but to say [...] is silly" argumentum ad ignorantiam

[dwheel39]

@Gazdo01 Okay.. now...please please reread what you just wrote. Do you see how the "appeal to ignorance" applies to your lack of belief in God? You cant conceive or understand such a Being so therefore He doesn't exist. And no, i am not appealing to ignorance. I'm appealing to the wealth of evidence that God does indeed exist. Atheists use reason and rationality to argue and prove that the source for their rationality is IRRATIONAL. And Dawkins says theists are "delusional"??? :)

[Gazdo01]

@dwheel39 P.S.: I'm a practicing Catholic...

[dwheel39]

@Gazdo01 haha...okay, forgive my assumption. Catholic, wow, okay..so then you do doubt the evidence that points to intelligence? Such as, complexity of life, fine tuning of the cosmos for life to exist, DNA information or the order of the universe as a whole? Would you agree that these point to an intelligence outside of ourselves? I'm interested in your opinions.

[dwheel39]

@robotaholic lol...okay, so if he "doesn't know" then why does he make his living arguing and trying to refute those who think they DO know? Unless one knows something he's not in a position to correct and should remain silent. Also, think about it, how does one get virtues like humility when the atheistic picture is survival of the fittest through natural selection. How does one get ANY virtues at all in a purely random materialistic world? You don't get "shoulds" from "is" :)

[dreadnut]

Wow. I'm a staunch Atheist and both of these men are horrible. The Theists is textbook and if I wanted to read his arguements, id go get st. augustine... Shermer needs to not take cough syrup by the gallon before he speaks. Both of them suck...

[DoctorMurky]

I disagree. Shemer is good because when people claim that God did something, Shermer simply asks, "How did God do it." If the believer can't answer the question then he can't prove that God did it. If God didn't do it it then there is no evidence that God exists. If the believer can explain how God did it then it's possible that any intelligent being could have done it and again there is no evidence that God exists. The believer can't win.

[TheAtheistChrist]

The believer can never win. Michael needed more practice before he did this debate. To many things went unsaid.

[dexytao]

Again, just because one cannot explain HOW God did it, doesnt mean that He does not exist. For example, I can say that I created the earth. I cannot tell you how I did it. But, yet, I exist.

[DoctorMurky]

If you can't tell us how you did it, then no one should believe you. (unless it was on video or something.) If believers can't tell us HOW God did something then no one one should believe that God did it. (No one should BELIEVE a BELIEVER anyway. If they had evidence they wouldn't have to beLIEve.) If God didn't do it then we have no evidence that God did anything. We have no evidence that God exists. P.S. God can't exist anyway for other reasons. You, dear reader, know that there is no God.

[dexytao]

So far u have stated that there is no evidence for God. I have stated that there is no evidence against God. Let's end it at that for now. Thank you for your opinion. (And yes, I believe and know that there is a God and I follow Him.) In the end, it's between you and God.  I've done my part.

[torin006]

You believe you know for certain. Knowing is philosophically impossible. That's why science deals in theory and not Truth. There is no evidence against elves. It does not make them existence. Atheism is the lack of belief. You are positing the positive statement: God exists. We are not convinced. You have the same evidence (or less even) as the lochness monster or bigfoot or UFO's or invisible mice in my attic. The default position should be disbelief, not belief. Why do you believe?

[Transformers217]

@torin006 Well there is evidence for the existence of God, and the main evidence is the Bible and the existence of Jesus Christ.

Sure, it might not be a lot of evidence, but it creates the huge probability of God's existence. :)

[beck2008beck]

Many of the things I assume you BELIEVE are equally, if no more unprovable, i.e. the origins of life evolving from pools of water some 900 million years ago. You in fact are a believer, you just put your faith in man's ever changing THEORIES on life and we put our faith in a never changing, all powerful God.

[dexytao]

You, dear reader, I'm sorry I don't agree. But, I won't say: "know that there is a God" because I know that you currently don't. And usu. man alone cannot convince another to go from no faith to have faith in God. You usu. come into it on ur own. So, i respect your position. I'm just sharing my faith cuz that's what disciples do! But, we do have evidence (Nature, us, earth, love, hope, prayer etc..). You just currently require more of it.Thnks 4 makg Mark 10:29-30 true (6negs 4 me!)

[Thatonedude917]

LIES!

Nature, us, earth, love, hope, prayer etc. are evidence for The Flying Spaghetti Monster!

[npotts89]

haha. i agree. but, you cannot prove that the flying spaghetti monster just as much as you cannot prove God cannot exist.

now, to state that they are lies....that is just ignorance. even Shermer did not stoop to this. because of your ignorance of the topic doesn't mean it is a lie.

[npotts89]

i would agree that it is evidence for the flying spaghetti monster. but, you cannot prove the existence of the flying spaghetti monster just as much as you cannot disprove the existence of Yahweh.

now, it is not lies. even Shermer did not call Jacoby a liar. don't stoop to a degrading ignorance simply because knowledge is not understood does not mean it is a lie...it means it is not understood. give credit where credit is due...not too much, not too little.

[Thatonedude917]

It was a joke, I was imitating a religious zealot.

Although some people will lie for Jebus.

[npotts89]

o. ok. it's hard to tell sarcasm on a computer screen lol.

but...either or, i was just clearing things up for both sides of the coin....a religious man or an atheistic man that neither should stoop to such a degrading attribute.

....but then, we would have to define the standard of what "morality" is and where it comes from. lol

[hashmeltarif]

The morals of Jesus are higher than ours and a

christian is humble enough to accept it. In fact his morals are higher than any other faith for it is the only one that teaches true love and that is a fact !

[TheAtheistChrist]

Jesus teachings are desturctive and amoral. Altruism and the message of self sacrafice is evil.

[Gojogongua]

Interesting that you mention the "if you were born in India" argument being logically irrelevant since you make the "problems with their fathers" argument on your atheism CD, and that is equally irrelevant. Just like you say, it's not "connected directly to the issue of truth". So why do you bother saying it?