Why HD Radio Sucks on AM - A demonstration

[Aviator14]

There is also a local 50,000 watt station in my area with HD and it wipes out anything 30khz above and below the frequency, also the hiss makes it annoying, if you listen to it in HD it has that metallic sound that a low quality mp3 would have. Also sometimes the signal will switch back and forth between HD and analog if the weather is bad. I think it is a total disaster

[Aviator14]

It sounds like they are splattering. An AM station is not supposed to be heard over 40khz wide.

[s51curtis]

I think you've missed the point. I'd like to see you do this demo again, only compare the sound of KSL on your analog Grundig against the sound of KSL digital on an HD Radio. I was blown away the first time I heard an HD signal on an HD Radio on the AM band. Granted the idea the two technologies can happily co-exist is flawed. I just doubt that AM technology with it's 10kHz bandwidth and poor S/N ratio is going to last much longer in this digital world.

[Ubstudios]

@s51curtis I hate to agree about AM technology not lasting much longer but its becoming an unfortunate fact. As far as KSL's HD sound compared to analog, you're right, it does sound better, albeit with digital artifacts. As finicky as the signal is for an HD AM station (you practically have to live on top of the tower for the station to sound the best), I really question its worth. In this situation, KSL is also on FM, so it doesn't make much sense to broadcast their AM AND FM in HD.

[Teflon65]

I re-watched your video, and re-read your comments. You said that IBUZ doesn't affect FM, so it's still a little mystery to me as to why a local FM station is coming in better now. Regardless, I find your video interesting, and I don't think CFC lightbulbs, or other RIF could make the noise the HD signals seem to be making. One more thing, I think analog AM sounds a lot better on an old tube radio. Any thoughts on that?

[Ubstudios]

@Teflon65 Yeah, sometimes the older the radio, the better AM sounds. The Grundig in the video is probably the best sounding radio I have. The others do not have the wide switch or are too wide that they allow adjacent stations to bleed badly. The radio in the video can switch between narrow mode (10khz) or wide 10+ khz so you can hear the whole sound. I prefer narrow though, because the S350 is a hot AM receiver.

[Teflon65]

I wasn't familiar with IBOC. I'd read that digital AM signals become analog at night. Also, a local FM oldies station here is suddenly coming in better on analog, and I don't know why. It used to come in great, pretty much no matter where I was, then it started to be a bad signal, and then it got good again. Could the weather or time of year affect that? I know it can affect AM signals.

[Ubstudios]

@Teflon65 Most HD stations on AM go analog only at night because of the interference caused, but not all. A lot of the big "clear channel" stations keep their IBUZ on 24/7. If a station sounds better on FM, it could mean any number of things, probably an increase in power or better audio processing (or less of it).

[Teflon65]

@Ubstudios Thanks for your answer. Now, can you tell me what IBUZ is?

[Ubstudios]

@Teflon65 IBUZ is just a term some of us who noticed the sound of the interference coined it. Also called as such because HD Radio's technical term is IBOC (In-band On Channel). I mainly use the IBUZ term because of the hash noise the sidebands of an AM HD station (and in some cases, FM) produce. Any radio, including HD Radios themselves can hear the noise you hear in this video. It blocks hearing other channels, that is my main complaint.

[Teflon65]

@Ubstudios That's interesting. I need to do more research. Now, I'm wondering if I can hear this one station better because another station shut off its IBUZ. I had kind of given up on listening to this station, but it's coming in as good now as it did years ago, and that's just on an analog radio. I probably need to re-watch your video again too. Thanks for your help; I'm learning stuff.

[Teflon65]

@Ubstudios I switched to the AM dial on my analog radio, for a minute, and only place I noticed that annoying buzz was coming up on our local Clear Channel station. Everything else sounded fine, including the Clear Channel station itself.

[Ubstudios]

@Teflon65 I'm not sure where you live but you may or may not have an AM station that carries HD at night (or during the day for that matter) near you. The ones I have around me now are KOA 850 and KSL 1160. KSL used to be worse when I lived in SLC, but not as bad now that I'm 150 miles distant.

[josephdupont]

how do you know that your radio is calibrated?

[Ubstudios]

@josephdupont It shouldn't matter if it is calibrated or not, what can be heard on this radio can be heard on other radios. HD Radio produces hash on sidebands on AM (and in some cases on FM), plain and simple.

[LycanthrA]

What I am trying to push forward out from lost planet was that fact that AM is breaking law by copy writing broken sub-titles at the tit farm in Hamlin TX. Look here my friend if you don't have shack houses in broken dreams then your life is far from being buttered and salted. I just wish that we could come together in this matter of piss and vinegar.

[LycanthrA]

If you listen to Am then you live to far away and you need to move closer. I don't AM! It's old and gets in the way of me making car faces in my jumper dude. You should will the powers of subnubs and listen to what my single is putting into the open space field.

[Ubstudios]

@LycanthrA I have no idea what you are trying to say but I love AM because there are more options than AM, and the stations stick with you longer when you are on the road. A lot of people don't like AM because it doesn't sound as good as FM, but they have poor radios, and/or no patience, that or they didn't grow up listening to the radio, like the latest ipod generation.

[jeffhanson1]

QUOTE from CES 2011:

"OEM: 17 Brands ● More than 85 Vehicle Types ● 36 Standard

Automakers substantially increased their commitments to HD Radio Technology over the past 12 months, and iBiquity expects strong corresponding growth in HD Radio equipped car sales in 2011.

Importantly, Toyota Motor Sales has announced the launch of HD Radio Technology in 2012 Model Year vehicles. Toyota will be the first OEM to offer the iTunes® Tagging feature on all radios that include HD Radio Technology."

[jeffhanson1]

Some stations have been experimenting with simulcasting their analog AM talk/news on FM. When I switched back and forth to compare, I was amazed by the difference (and that's analog and just voices).

The radio industry needs HD to compete with satellite. Afterall, there is talk radio on satellite too, not just music. That's why HD AM will probably be around despite the problems you raised.

[harleykman]

I've never heard any IBOC noise on my AM radio (1987 Chrysler with Stereo). I've tried to find it but it isn't audible

.

As for your problem the solution is the same solution used to fix HDTV's weak perfor,ance - turn off the analog and turn-up the HD to full strength. Not now of course bu maybe in 2015

.

Either that or wtch AM die a slow death from lack of listeners, and then sell the band to Google, ATT, et al for wireless internet use

.

.

[jjovereats]

@harleykman Your radio obviously is designed to filter out digital hiss, but not hash (HD-Radio de-ruiner filter).

[deconstructionist67]

IBOC sucks.

[RogueKnight12866]

This demonstration is idiotic. Of course there is hiss on that frequency range in mediumwave. And your predisposition to listen way off center of a station's signal is the real reason for the interference you deal in, not IBOC. So, it is the judgment of the Court your declaration that IBOC doesn't work on AM in your own words, period is reversed and judgment in favor of AM IBOC is rendered, period. Case closed, you lose.

[Ubstudios]

@RogueKnight12866 You obviously have no idea how many people listen to AM radio stations from farther away than normal. The problem I discuss in this video is that the IBOC signal creates hiss on the center frequency itself. As I write this comment, I am listening to KOA... 300+ miles distant, and I can hear the hiss caused by its own IBOC on 850 itself. Even on an HD Radio tuner, you can hear the hiss caused by IBOC itself. IBOC would work on AM if it were to fit within 10 kHz, not 30 kHz.

[Ubstudios]

@Ubstudios And another thing, since you're obviously pro-HD Radio, tell me why it hasn't been massively adapted as we've been told by Ibiquity. Why can't I buy a car today with an HD Radio in it (but Sirius built in lol). Why on AM did Citadel silence its nighttime IBOC transmissions? Why are the AM stations that use the technology letting it drop like flies? Obviously something must have happened! I do like HD Radio, just on FM where it belongs. The video shows IBOC interference, nuff said.

[jeffhanson1]

@Ubstudios Actually the cars to have HD off the showroom were from GM.  Even some rental fleets have it in there vehicles.

[Ubstudios]

@jeffhanson1 While that may be true, it is only one make of car. The foreign companies (Honda, Subaru, Toyota) haven't really included it in their models. I am all for HD radio on FM when it is done right.... what I am arguing against is HD on AM. It simply doesn't make much sense.

[jeffhanson1]

@Ubstudios That's true but look how many years it took for auto makers to include MP3 playback. MP3 has revolutionized the music industry for the past 10 years but only in the past few years have a some auto makers included that, including Ford, Scion, Lexus. HD radio isn't going away. Aftermarket stereo makers are leading the way again just like with MP3. Auto makers will follow their lead once again.

In LA and San Diego alone, there are 3 or 4 dozen HD channels and sub channels combined.

[xrqkradio]

@RogueKnight12866 There is nothing wrong with Justin's demonstration; it demonstrates why it's difficult to listen to adjacent channels on AM quite well. From my High Desert listening post in California; IBOC has eliminated or causes interference to a dozen station that use to come in here. Example: KDWN 720 Las Vegas is covered up by 710's IBOC from Los Angeles, 660 Oildale suffers from adjacent channel interference from IBOC on 640 KFI. Noise is added to the main carrier from the IBOC

[THEBossSound]

LOL! OK, who, besides you, would tune a radio like that? And no the hiss is not on all radios. Nice try though.

[Ubstudios]

@THEBossSound If you live within 10 miles of an AM radio station broadcasting IBOC, then you will hear hiss on the side bands. Unless the radio is narrow enough, there is no hiding the interference caused by the digital signal.

[THEBossSound]

@Ubstudios When you are within 10 miles of a blow torch you will get sideband splatter anyways. Please feel free to tell me how this effects anyone, other than those that like to listen to the sidebands?

[Ubstudios]

@THEBossSound most people who have radios probably didn't spend that much to buy them. The cheaper the radio, the more cheaply it is built, and the more likely you'll hear the interference. For example, I live within 10 miles of a 10,000 watt AM station on 1060 that DOESN'T use IBOC and it is clean as a whistle at night and day. KSL features hash from 1130 to 1150, and then from 1170-1190 on almost all of my radios, even with HD. There is no denying HD Radio makes interference on the AM dial.

[THEBossSound]

@Ubstudios And what listenable stations are there in SLC on 1170 etc? none. Especially if you are 10 miles from a 50kW AM. The FCC would not assign a station within 20 kHz on either side within KSL protected area.

[Ubstudios]

@THEBossSound

On top of that, those living outside of the city, I.E. rural areas, who used to be able to hear stations at night a lot clearer can hear the digital signals as well. Case in point, KFAQ 1170 Tulsa used to be receivable here just outside of Salt Lake City at night with any given radio, until KSL turned IBOC on. I've been told by KSL that people in Vernal can't hear KSL because of KFAQ's IBOC. IBOC DOES NOT WORK ON AM! Period!

[THEBossSound]

@Ubstudios LOL And how many listeners of KSL are there in Tulsa? 2? And I bet you are the only one that listens to KFAQ in SLC. Trust me I am a DXer too, but the business model does not hold for distant listeners anymore.

[LibertyPC]

@THEBossSound Actually, I can hear the hiss on my radios too.

from my car radios to my DX radios.

But Ubstudios is wrong about one thing, most radios use Narrow instead of wide.

most consumer radios allow about 5khz of audio.

[schepler2]

As a guy who collects vintage radios, and who also owns a Grundig S350, I can tell you that the Grundig gets abysmal AM reception, at least here in the Phoenix area. I have a 45-year-old Zenith Transoceanic 3000-1 that gets almost noise-free AM reception at all times of the day or night. So, some of what you're demonstrating here is simply a result of the shortcomings of the S350.

[Ubstudios]

@schepler2

I respectfully disagree that it is the S350. As I mentioned, any radio receives the hash produced by HD Radio. Even the Sony Wonder Tuner (XDR-F1HD) which is an HD Radio itself picks up the noise. The S350 has received a large chunk of the 354 stations I have heard in Salt Lake. With the right antenna, it becomes a really good performer. I also mention the radio wasn't in a good position when recording this video.

[schepler2]

@Ubstudios I guess we can agree to disagree about the S350. But one other point I'd like to make: I've never been able to use wide band on the S350. Generally speaking, it makes the signal too noisy. The same is true with my GE Superadio III. Wide band is pretty much useless. I've heard it said that wide band makes AM more "FM-like," but I've never experienced that.

[schepler2]

You keep saying "hash" over and over again. What does "hash" mean? Without knowing what that means, I have no idea what the point of this video is. Are you saying that HD radio signals cause interference on analog?

[Ubstudios]

@schepler2 Uh yeah, that is exactly what I am demonstrating here.

Say the word Hash... you hear that sound. That is what HD Radio sounds like on analog AM radio.

[bodryn]

FYI: I often used to listen to KSL at night from Moorhead, MN many years ago. As for HD radio, I'm not likely to pick it up at all, because I live some 45 miles away from the nearest large city likely to have it. Which makes me wonder what is the big advantage to HD Radio? I had thought it would be better for everybody and would replace AM, etc. I guess congress is not known for scientific expertise, well, maybe lacking in general brainpower. LOL

[Ubstudios]

@bodryn FWIW it wasn't congress that instituted HD Radio but the fellas at the freakin' FCC.

[bodryn]

@Ubstudios Am unable to follow up effectively due to YouTube policies limiting comments.

[QUIX4U]

Flight of the Conchords Ep 11 "Frodo"

(My RHS - 1st response... but feel free to check the others ... if U wish - as well)

[QUIX4U]

Yes ... AM does have it's advantages ...

BUT... Most radio transmission stations DO NOT KNOW - how to "modify rheir "signal inputs ... in order for MORE CONTENT and background surround "notes" to play ... instead they dumbly "transmit basic std MONO ... to the detriment of a higher quality - of "good" (full) AM MONO content - that is ACTUALLY available ... if they "took' the time to investigate this a wee tad more...

ie:-

Check out my response to ?

Flight of the Conchords ... r8dkid

[RayAir1]

It's probably the CFC light bulbs in your house causing all the interference.

[andycflbulb]

@RayAir1 when starting up, CFL light bulbs will cause a Pop! to be heard on low-left FM (88 and 91)

[KyleCulbertson]

I think the resin is it maybe interference with some of the other appliances in the house or you dont have a good antenna or what you might could take the radio out doors in an open yard or something just guessing HD Radio can suck sometimes I kind of wish they could stick with analog instead of this whole HD TV HD Radio crap its much cheaper The FCC And the Government did this in 2009.

[Ubstudios]

The other appliances don't produce interference as great as HD Radio does to the station's side bands. No matter where I take the radio, I can hear HD. Even in my car's HD radio, 200+ miles away, I still hear the hiss on the adjacent channels. No matter what, the evidence is there that IBOC does cause interference, hands down.

[westkan]

@KyleCulbertson in most case digital, while it has it's short comings makes the most efficient use of limited RF spectrum. Most radio services regulated by the FCC will be forced to go to digital. Not really any different than when the land mobile service licensees where required to go narrower bandwidth equipment as technology allowed it.

[kuernodechivo]

BTW did KSL turn theirs off? I only see two stations on the AM band here in Utah County. 820 and 910.

Maybe KSL didn't like the bad publicity so they migrated to 102.7,...?

[Ubstudios]

Yes, KSL currently has theirs off. How long its off or why is another story. Me thinks they finally realized they don't need HD on AM when they have the FM on HD too. Its a no brainer.

[kuernodechivo]

The other reason I do not like this scam is the whole proprietary Codec. I am not totally against digital radio but the codecs should be free and open. (however this bandwidth issue on AM does indeed suck)

DSTAR ham is another example. I just wonder who in the FCC is getting all these kick-backs from the companies peddling their proprietary codecs... What ever happened to "no codes or ciphers"...?

[Ubstudios]

Ibiquity doesn't give a damn about its product, the only purpose of that company is to make a butt load of money off of broadcasters and effectively kill the AM Band.

[LinoNewyork]

What is killing AM are the horrible (old-poorly educated) demos. AM radio lost the youth market in the mid-seventies due to bad audio, today it is the province of right wing crackpots and religion. BTW: I have seen the 6+ numbers and breakouts for most of the AM stations running iboc here in US, none have shown any decline due to it's introduction. AM iboc probably won't help much..but it hasn't hurt with average listeners.

[Ubstudios]

I work in radio, so I see the numbers a lot too. The biggest signal here (KSL) has been number one for years and their iboc happily chugs along (however it is out for repairs more and more).

Good points about demos, didn't think of that one.

FWIW, I still and always have loved the AM band in general. I love hearing stations farther than normal, and I'm not afraid of static. The buzz though, bothers me.

[eimac4x1]

What a nightmare. Can you believe the FCC allowed such nonsense?

[themagicjellybeans]

Burn in hell HD !

[deconstructionist67]

Death to IBOC!

And to the FCC for allowing that shite.

[deadkennedysfan]

Part of the reason why KSL sounds so bad on 1160 in the wide position is probably because your radio's digital display isn't entirely accurate. I used to have a Grundig S350 and then an S350DL and they both suffered from this. For example, if I wanted to tune into 700 WLW, the big AM station where I live, I would have to tune the Grundig to 704 khz for the radio to actually be on 700. But anyway, that HD interference shows up on all of my AM radios and it's really annoying.

[Ubstudios]

Its the same on all of my radios though, so I'm not sure its just the fault of the Grundig.

I know the Grundig has its flaws too. On my Sony XDR-F1HD, before KSL's IBOC kicks in, you can clearly hear the hiss.

[mathiasvolta]

Interesting demonstration ! 5*

[bodryn]

I used to love DXing before I even knew what it was. Now it looks like the powers that be want to keep people from being able to hear what they want. I had XM radio but they took MSNBC radio off and their advertising got way obnoxious. I don't swallow that right-wing crap anymore anyway. I guess the only way now is to go on-line and listen around the world.

[Ubstudios]

I'd like to see how those Wifi Radios work.

[Grisha63]

What difference does it make if there's hash at 1140, 1150, 1170, or 1180 if there's no stations to receive at those frequencies in the first place? The only point made by the narrator that seems to be relevant is that a slight hiss is heard at 1160 (the actual frequency of KSL). He is correct that HD causes interference to nearby stations (to the frequency that is broadcasting in HD), however he does not show that there are any stations nearby to 1160 that are being interfered with.

[Ubstudios]

To the average person, yes, this wouldn't matter, but to those of us who listen to MW to find farther away stations (hobby known as Dxing) it makes all the difference in the world.

I used to be able to receive KFAQ 1170 from Tulsa, Oklahoma clear as a bell before KSL turned their IBOC on.

A funny thing happens on 1140. Las Vegas has a station on 1140 that also uses IBOC, effectively rendering any station on 1150 in the west useless.

[RukiChanAndPan]

hd radio SUCKS They start promoting Viagra and Fucking Better sex shit.Which doesn`t work.Anyway they`re sensoring stuff like "Holy" And "Love"But when they say mother Fucker they don`t cut out ANYTHING What the Fuck is they`re idea with that?

[andrewcheadle]

You're right about FM. I used to get 92.7 in Dover, DE before 92.9 went HD. Now 92.7 is nothing but hash.

[Lachlant1984]

Wow. I suspect this is the reason why we're not using HD Radio here in Australia. What an awesome radio you have there. I like it. Grundig are generally very good.

[wildbilltexas]

I get the same kind of nasty hash from WOAI in San Antonio and WLAC in Nashville at night.. and that's over 200 miles away in east Texas.

[Ubstudios]

KOA is a bad one out here in the west. The hash takes over 840 from Las Vegas, but we also have a local on 860, so no worries on that side.

[uploadJ]

Good documenting of the effects of AM IBOC esp with the narrow and wide IF bandwidths.