The greatest honour that anyone has ever paid to me was when I sang Que Faro at a music festival in the mid-1980s. A woman came up to me afterwards and said that she'd been at Kathleen Ferrier's last concert at Covent Garden and my voice reminded her of that performance. I had great difficulty stopping myself from crying when she said that.
lovely lovely lovely les reves mysteriese de mon enfance. burnley be proud of her. even now she steps back intt our lives because death cannot hold her back.we have lived to hear that voice. so beautiful and so of england. thankyou Kathleen.
Does anybody know what the song is called in which she sings the following lyrics: "Die Welt ist leer, Ich will nicht leben mehr"? I've googled it but have gotten nowhere.
@cherrypixie7 It is the 8th song of the Frauen Liebe und Leben cycle by Schumann. "Nun hast du mir den ersten Schmerz getan" It is the second verse "Es blicket die Verlassne vor sich hin, Die Welt is leer. Geliebet hab ich und gelebt, ich bin Nicht lebend mehr."
60 years after her death the world is still licking it's wounds. But out ears are soothed bu the immortal beauty of her voice. The tear glands get a work-out also.
Can't tell the number of times I used to play my grandparents' old 78 of this recording - to hear it again transports me back to my childhood. A sublime and unsurpassable interpretation of Dove Sei/Art thou troubeld from Rodenlinda, even though if it isn't in line with today's far more refined and correct baroque music interpretations. Kathleen Ferrier had a voice like no other.
like I read a story from my own youth,and than continuing ,the story of me listening when my father was singing along with this heavenly music.You always wonders what is the secret of her pure and beautifull voice.God bless kathleen ferrier.
its happening again. Whenever I hear a truly great singer, the hair at the back of my neck stands up. I remember reading about Kathleen as a child, but this is the first time I have actually heard her singing. NOW, I perfectly understand why she is up there with Callas etc as one of the great female singers of all time.
@Thoughtland Yes I very much remember "Blow the Wind Southerly" and hearing Kathleen singing it on the radio as a child - my mother loved Kathleen Ferrier and used to love to sing along with her.
I grew up with this music - she was my mother's favourite singer. I sang along to her albums as a child and studied this song in my musical study days, I plan to sing this at her funeral - it is the essence of both of us - music will calm us. So moving!
Tears are in my eyes listening to Kathleen and thinking when i was young telling my mother who loved this second piece "Arth thou troubled" that I thought this was trash. How foolish we can be when young?
Listening to Kathleen Ferrier is, for those with a kind heart, very like hearing the beautiful soul of the Creator. Her two qualities of personality: one a high spirited jolly tomboy and the other secret, profound and of another world have memorably touched innumerable people to inspire good in them. She must be truly delighted that people remember her so very highly. God bless her always!
Fantastic voice. I first heard What is Life years ago played in the background during the series "Widows". Hunted it down and have loved KF ever since.
As with many other it appears, this record reminds me of my dad. Although it must be over 40 years ago now, I can picture him now. Sitting in the front room on his own listening to this on his Dansette. Tears his his eyes, staring into space.
A voice that is as sommoth as velvet! Katleen Ferrier's singing always makes me cry. I made the mistake of playing a CD of her in the car - I coulnd't see - I nearly had to stop! A wonderful voice
Sitting here with tears in my eyes. First heard Kathleen in 1952 and have yet to hear a more gifted contralto (and I have heard quite a few since then). Her voice is rich and warm and so moving particularly singing Handle and Gluck.
I was introduced to Kathleen Ferrier by a grand lady (a friend and neigbour) Lillian Kees who was died in 1998 aged 93. Whenever I hear Kathleen I think of her. She was a great fan of Kathleen and sang herself.
She died this day in '53. What a loss. Indescribable - her voice and the loss to the world. Just let us remember her - beautiful, angleic, " Klever Kaff". Anna, for sure she is in heaven. Where else do angels go?
Thank you for posting this wonderful performance. I have loved her voice for many years, always the same effect, never changes, and she is heard at her very best in this. (IMO)
in 1946 I was 2 years old - I did not hear this awsome rendition of this piece of life essence till I was much older and had children and my eldest son played it to me and asked why it made him cry? I could not answer......I was crying!!!!! peter was 10 55 years ago - I was 25..... 40 years ago!!!!!
@BryanMRoland & PeterSavage9999 KF has a remarkable ability to put tears in male eyes. She is so personally present in her own voice that she re-exists every time she is heard. No other singer ever had that quality
This is the single most moving music I know - I was introduced to this piece at the age of 10, 55 years ago - it moved me then. I don't think I have ever listened to this without weeping quietly.
Three months ago my beloved wife died - I am going through the painful process of answering just the questions she asks, seeking meaning in life.
There are very few voices, getting me with no way to to help against that standing up all of my hair and get´n goosbumps all over and tears in my eyes- Ferrier is one of them! German singer Fassbaender is the next and I hope there are some more to come!
I remember a Lynda La Plante crime series called "Widows" in the early 80's. At the very end of the final episode, one of the key characters lay dead on the floor .. and instead of the usual end-music, they simply rolled the credits against an old, muffled version of "What Is Life". It totally blew me away and I spent years trying to track down the music - it turned out to be this very Kathleen Ferrier version ... and I still love it, 25 years on.
This has taken me right back to my childhood. My mum was used to play this recording to me on an old dansette record player and it would send cold shivers down my spine because I couldn't understand how I could be listening to a dead person sing. I'm sure that this experience was added to by the beauty and clarity of her voice. Truly powerful
Still play this about I suppose, about every two weeks or so.
Btw geneandyoon, if you are still about? I belong to 3 choirs as a bass singer and find Ienjoy 'trying' to sing along with Kathleen more than any other.
I am still around. I always find myself gravitating toward her voice. I figured that you had a good voice; I do envy you. I am not sure where you are located, but in the US, there is dearth of good classical music radio stations on air; it is either the internet or my own collection. When I am traveling for work or working late at night, sights such as this is a godsend as it allows me to hear her voice even when I am not at home. Anyway take care.
It is my pleasure. Like you, I find that I am always touched by her voice. I am always saddened by the thought of what could have been had she not been taken from this world at a such an early age. By the way, I loved the BBC documentary that was made several years ago on her life. I am sure you have seen it already. Take care and keep singing. I can guarantee you that I have a worse voice than you but it does not stop me - although my wife says it should.
Humpty and fairlilac watch the current britains got talent a 12year old called faryl smith should be a Kathleen for the future ...My mother used to talk about Kathleen and admire such a wonderful talent
If I'd be granted the chance to hear one last thing before facing eternity, it would be the the sound of Ferrier singing Orfeo,in his olympic despair.
Rayrac - nice comment - Ms. Ferrier's beautiful voice still brings a tear to my eyes when I hear her sing "What is Life" - Thank you RussellK9 for 'a lovely contribution'
It is "Erbarme dich" from Matthaus Passion that gets to me like nothing else. Heard it on a scratchy LP 40+ years ago and fell in love. Wherever she is, may her memory be for a blessing
The purity of voice, the dignity, the fidelity to the lyrics (altough lovlier in italian). Ms Ferrier´s was one of the greatest, if not the greatest in her genre
ever. A lovely contribution to YouTube! Thank you for posting it!
The Human Voice, especially hers, is the most beautiful instrument. Thanks for posting! If someone have her recordings of English folk songs, please post.
Life will never be the same as before I heard her the first time.
Thank you so much for posting this. This recording was probably the first opera I ever heard. I remember it being on the radio quite often in the 1950s, and I always loved it, even when I was too little to really understand what it was or who Kathleen Ferrier was.
The greatest honour that anyone has ever paid to me was when I sang Que Faro at a music festival in the mid-1980s. A woman came up to me afterwards and said that she'd been at Kathleen Ferrier's last concert at Covent Garden and my voice reminded her of that performance. I had great difficulty stopping myself from crying when she said that.
Sunflowers159 1 week ago
What a face, What a voice. Too bad she died so young
pedi007 1 week ago
Wonderful, amazing, beautiful voice. What a tragedy she was taken from us so young.
chilledminx 4 weeks ago
how and I ask you .. HOW can anyone dislike anything that is as powerfull and moving as this..........apart from people who are musically deaf
MrMickmonk 1 month ago
Indeed ,adorable ,a truly wonderful voice! And this Second Person Singular English Pronoun- "Thoy art...." sounds so pleasurably friendly !!!
fatalistbg1 2 months ago
Imagine hearing this lovely and tragic music in 1946, at the end of WW2 where literally millions of people lost their loved ones! Wow.
MalcTV 3 months ago
lovely lovely lovely les reves mysteriese de mon enfance. burnley be proud of her. even now she steps back intt our lives because death cannot hold her back.we have lived to hear that voice. so beautiful and so of england. thankyou Kathleen.
buttonfreezer 3 months ago
Does anybody know what the song is called in which she sings the following lyrics: "Die Welt ist leer, Ich will nicht leben mehr"? I've googled it but have gotten nowhere.
cherrypixie7 4 months ago
@cherrypixie7 It is the 8th song of the Frauen Liebe und Leben cycle by Schumann. "Nun hast du mir den ersten Schmerz getan" It is the second verse "Es blicket die Verlassne vor sich hin, Die Welt is leer. Geliebet hab ich und gelebt, ich bin Nicht lebend mehr."
schwani 2 months ago
60 years after her death the world is still licking it's wounds. But out ears are soothed bu the immortal beauty of her voice. The tear glands get a work-out also.
lodstromsballin 5 months ago
What a beautiful evocative song by Kathleen Ferrier and the equally beautiful comments the words have inspired. Peace and Love to all .....
Katietoo 6 months ago
Tears flowed throughout. So beautiful thank you.
RiaLake 6 months ago
my nana was a contralto, also named kathleen, like me. i love her voice, heartbreakingly beautiful
mobiusmaximus 8 months ago
thankyou so much so beautiful,
mobiusmaximus 8 months ago
Her voice is heavenly, undescribably beautiful! Thank you so much!
7inga7 9 months ago
She is such a wonderful moving voice. Sublime. I love her for ever
erika64F 9 months ago
There simply are no words to describe such beauty.
iteachbass 9 months ago
I have loved this beautiful lady's heavenly voice since I first heard her as a child over 50 years ago. A truly spiritual experience
bebaroo1 10 months ago 3
Can't tell the number of times I used to play my grandparents' old 78 of this recording - to hear it again transports me back to my childhood. A sublime and unsurpassable interpretation of Dove Sei/Art thou troubeld from Rodenlinda, even though if it isn't in line with today's far more refined and correct baroque music interpretations. Kathleen Ferrier had a voice like no other.
35westie 10 months ago 6
like I read a story from my own youth,and than continuing ,the story of me listening when my father was singing along with this heavenly music.You always wonders what is the secret of her pure and beautifull voice.God bless kathleen ferrier.
kraaipoes 7 months ago
My Dad always loved this on account of the Geordie connection...Mom wasn't so sure but I love it anyway!
daffonfire 10 months ago 2
Whenever I hear Kathleen I think of my parents, who cried when she died in 1952. What a voice.
kattekop100 10 months ago 4
Un grande contralto che ci ha lasciato troppo presto .
MrPipposiculo 11 months ago 2
this is so spiritually moving ...sang by a very spiritual voice so moving 10/10
MrMickmonk 1 year ago 5
Onirique ....
Merci pour le post !
francesca7564 1 year ago 3
A beautiful tune could listen to it over and over again.
abersoch09 1 year ago 2
Beautiful beautiful, gives me goose bumps
abersoch09 1 year ago 2
Wow.
leoniemikele 1 year ago 2
A light has gone has gone out from this world and I shall miss her.
mjfeven 1 year ago 2
its happening again. Whenever I hear a truly great singer, the hair at the back of my neck stands up. I remember reading about Kathleen as a child, but this is the first time I have actually heard her singing. NOW, I perfectly understand why she is up there with Callas etc as one of the great female singers of all time.
SJoynson 1 year ago 7
Way back in the mists of time when I was wee I used to hear her singing Blow the Wind Southerly on the radio
Thoughtland 1 year ago 4
@Thoughtland Yes I very much remember "Blow the Wind Southerly" and hearing Kathleen singing it on the radio as a child - my mother loved Kathleen Ferrier and used to love to sing along with her.
basquill1 1 year ago 3
Ferrier is my queen of contralto!
MARESPANIOLA 1 year ago 2
Все! Ферриер - моя королева!
MARESPANIOLA 1 year ago 2
I grew up with this music - she was my mother's favourite singer. I sang along to her albums as a child and studied this song in my musical study days, I plan to sing this at her funeral - it is the essence of both of us - music will calm us. So moving!
shanipan 1 year ago 2
She is the greatest - along with Leontyne. These ladies can do no wring.
swanningaround 1 year ago 2
Tears are in my eyes listening to Kathleen and thinking when i was young telling my mother who loved this second piece "Arth thou troubled" that I thought this was trash. How foolish we can be when young?
kittytwister 1 year ago 4
i blubbed when i read ilandyers post about his/her dad, i know just what they mean. spot on, as for the song, quite beautiful as was Kathleen.
falconoilcompany 1 year ago 3
Just heavenly, makes me weep its so beautiful. I miss you so much Mum and Dad.
Miss you too John.
singsong1940 1 year ago 4
voice of a angel this woman
MrMickmonk 1 year ago 6
I was also brought up with this recording. Thanks for posting it
southcoastsounds 1 year ago 5
Listening to Kathleen Ferrier is, for those with a kind heart, very like hearing the beautiful soul of the Creator. Her two qualities of personality: one a high spirited jolly tomboy and the other secret, profound and of another world have memorably touched innumerable people to inspire good in them. She must be truly delighted that people remember her so very highly. God bless her always!
Spiritualsound 1 year ago 17
Fantastic voice. I first heard What is Life years ago played in the background during the series "Widows". Hunted it down and have loved KF ever since.
reidsue 1 year ago 6
Che faro senza Kathleen? Her early death was a great loss. One of the great voices which touched everyone who heard it.
VoceVersatile 1 year ago 10
Kathleen's joyous, yet spiritual interpretation, so warm and real wakens within me the meaning of compassion and thoughtfulness.
bonnies1234567 1 year ago 6
As with many other it appears, this record reminds me of my dad. Although it must be over 40 years ago now, I can picture him now. Sitting in the front room on his own listening to this on his Dansette. Tears his his eyes, staring into space.
Miss you dad.
iandyer 1 year ago 10
@iandyer
I can relate to that! We're fortunate to have had such parents my friend.
Larkin1907 1 year ago 2
A voice that is as sommoth as velvet! Katleen Ferrier's singing always makes me cry. I made the mistake of playing a CD of her in the car - I coulnd't see - I nearly had to stop! A wonderful voice
jha2ked 2 years ago 9
Know what you mean. I cannot play my inspirational CDs in the car either.
bonnies1234567 1 year ago 5
Sitting here with tears in my eyes. First heard Kathleen in 1952 and have yet to hear a more gifted contralto (and I have heard quite a few since then). Her voice is rich and warm and so moving particularly singing Handle and Gluck.
Thank you for posting this entry
fimerle 2 years ago 9
I was introduced to Kathleen Ferrier by a grand lady (a friend and neigbour) Lillian Kees who was died in 1998 aged 93. Whenever I hear Kathleen I think of her. She was a great fan of Kathleen and sang herself.
Theodoxia 2 years ago 18
Theo explained ~ introduced to Kathleen's music.♫♪♫♪☺
RussellK9 2 years ago
Thanks for posting this. Never heard her before, but this is fourth song in a row on which she sounds really good.
tmmmviii 2 years ago 7
beautiful....no comparison
loonylinda 2 years ago 7
this reduces me to tears, never forget this woman,wonderful voice, tragic she died so young, never forgotten
TheChrisOrange 2 years ago 7
Kathleen is surely unique. Her sound is eternal.
Wisterialodge 2 years ago 8
It does not get more beautiful...
rorydog1 2 years ago 10
She died this day in '53. What a loss. Indescribable - her voice and the loss to the world. Just let us remember her - beautiful, angleic, " Klever Kaff". Anna, for sure she is in heaven. Where else do angels go?
summerstwilight 2 years ago 10
Beautifull song. Hope she will sing it in heaven and if i am dead i will hear this music again.
Annabcuandme 2 years ago 8
Thank you for posting this wonderful performance. I have loved her voice for many years, always the same effect, never changes, and she is heard at her very best in this. (IMO)
24gwen24 2 years ago 13
P.s. She died 56 years ago and 21,183 views of love show her unbeatable fingerprint
BryanMRoland 2 years ago 13
in 1946 I was 2 years old - I did not hear this awsome rendition of this piece of life essence till I was much older and had children and my eldest son played it to me and asked why it made him cry? I could not answer......I was crying!!!!! peter was 10 55 years ago - I was 25..... 40 years ago!!!!!
BryanMRoland 2 years ago 16
@BryanMRoland & PeterSavage9999 KF has a remarkable ability to put tears in male eyes. She is so personally present in her own voice that she re-exists every time she is heard. No other singer ever had that quality
RatherLargeAllan 2 years ago 7
This is the single most moving music I know - I was introduced to this piece at the age of 10, 55 years ago - it moved me then. I don't think I have ever listened to this without weeping quietly.
Three months ago my beloved wife died - I am going through the painful process of answering just the questions she asks, seeking meaning in life.
PeterSavage9999 2 years ago 13
The voice of an angel! She left this earth far too soon! Thank you for the referral, Paul.
CanadaPisces 2 years ago 8
Lovely beyond comparison! Brava!
paulostroff99 2 years ago 6
Grazie Paul per questo video voce molto bella.
Walter
macciboma 2 years ago 5
There are very few voices, getting me with no way to to help against that standing up all of my hair and get´n goosbumps all over and tears in my eyes- Ferrier is one of them! German singer Fassbaender is the next and I hope there are some more to come!
flapsi1 2 years ago 7
davidj a very poignant recording, which always leaves a tear in the eye
captaindavidjacobs 2 years ago 5
listening to this over the phone with my 80yr old friend. She is crooning along with Kathleen. What a magical moment.
badmartianshrew 2 years ago 9
Sylvia McNair... That's all I have to say!
But what a BEAUTIFUL voice I hear here!
missionpants 2 years ago 6
Anybody know who wrote the English words?
M.
Songstermom 2 years ago 7
W.G. Rothery
beadisciple 2 years ago 8
The evocation of desperation of which I am a constant companion....
eirbiz 2 years ago 8
a voice so beautiful, it makes me weep.
SINGINGOPERAFAN 2 years ago 9
I remember a Lynda La Plante crime series called "Widows" in the early 80's. At the very end of the final episode, one of the key characters lay dead on the floor .. and instead of the usual end-music, they simply rolled the credits against an old, muffled version of "What Is Life". It totally blew me away and I spent years trying to track down the music - it turned out to be this very Kathleen Ferrier version ... and I still love it, 25 years on.
dmtudor 2 years ago 11
She had such an unique voice, it's a travesty that she died so young.
anorak64 2 years ago 14
A truly marvellous voice,
Unique and unequalled.
bilstew 3 years ago 24
What a simply superb artist is the lovely Kathleen.I never tire of hearing her lovely voice and seeing her beautiful face.
Without you Kathleen ALL our lives are diminished.
bilstew 3 years ago 14
My favorite Kathleen Ferrier song is "What is Life " from Gluck's Orfeo
OldGrumpyGuy 3 years ago 12
This has taken me right back to my childhood. My mum was used to play this recording to me on an old dansette record player and it would send cold shivers down my spine because I couldn't understand how I could be listening to a dead person sing. I'm sure that this experience was added to by the beauty and clarity of her voice. Truly powerful
theateam69 3 years ago 15
Blest are the glorious dead for they shall live forever.
bilstew 3 years ago 15
My two favourites, I never tire of hearing her beautiful voice, thanks.
Mickell1234 3 years ago 23
The epitome of the haunting melody. Would have loved to have known Kathleen.
eirbiz 3 years ago 13
first heard her recordings at secondary school and loved her ever since, some 45 years in time
johncliffe39 3 years ago 13
Still play this about I suppose, about every two weeks or so.
Btw geneandyoon, if you are still about? I belong to 3 choirs as a bass singer and find Ienjoy 'trying' to sing along with Kathleen more than any other.
rayrac 3 years ago 10
Rayrac,
I am still around. I always find myself gravitating toward her voice. I figured that you had a good voice; I do envy you. I am not sure where you are located, but in the US, there is dearth of good classical music radio stations on air; it is either the internet or my own collection. When I am traveling for work or working late at night, sights such as this is a godsend as it allows me to hear her voice even when I am not at home. Anyway take care.
geneandyoon 3 years ago 12
I'm based in England 40 miles north of London.
Still listen to this wonderful voice, probably once a week if I'm lucky.
My best regards to you and yours.
rayrac 3 years ago 14
I was nine years old when she died an she still make me weep when she sings.
mbrookfi 3 years ago 11
geneandyoon
Thanks v much for the words to 'Art Thou Troubled'.
Great pleasure in singing it, not so sure about those hearing it from me though!! :-)
rayrac 3 years ago 8
rayrac
It is my pleasure. Like you, I find that I am always touched by her voice. I am always saddened by the thought of what could have been had she not been taken from this world at a such an early age. By the way, I loved the BBC documentary that was made several years ago on her life. I am sure you have seen it already. Take care and keep singing. I can guarantee you that I have a worse voice than you but it does not stop me - although my wife says it should.
geneandyoon 3 years ago 11
Humpty and fairlilac watch the current britains got talent a 12year old called faryl smith should be a Kathleen for the future ...My mother used to talk about Kathleen and admire such a wonderful talent
trixielixie6 3 years ago 7
Absolutely beautiful, thank you.
fairylilac 3 years ago 6
Kathleen if you were alive today and awaiting a heart transplant I would give you mine! I love you! Joe from California
humptywolf 3 years ago 5
If I'd be granted the chance to hear one last thing before facing eternity, it would be the the sound of Ferrier singing Orfeo,in his olympic despair.
candidogabriel 3 years ago 5
What is life,a truly beautiful song.
shum65 3 years ago 4
Does anyone have the words to are thou art troubled? I would be very grateful indeed!
Many thanks in anticipation.
Donkey7570 3 years ago 3
Art thou troubled? Music will calm thee
Art thou weary? Rest shall be thine
Music, source of all gladness heals thy sadness at her shrine.
Music, music ever divine.
Music, music calleth with voice divine.
When the welcome spring is smiling,
all the earth with flow'rs beguiling after winter's dreary reign,
sweetest music doth attend her,
heavenly harmonies doth lend her,
chanting praises in her train.
geneandyoon 3 years ago 6
My thanks also geneandyoon. What a match for the music!
Hope there's such a thing as Heaven, I'd like to meet her and hear her 'live'.
rayrac 3 years ago 5
mrs.ferrier is my inspiration
luckycharm00812 3 years ago 3
I like to think I'm a grown man, hardened by the rigours of life, a longish life I might add.
And I wept............
rayrac 3 years ago 2
Rayrac - nice comment - Ms. Ferrier's beautiful voice still brings a tear to my eyes when I hear her sing "What is Life" - Thank you RussellK9 for 'a lovely contribution'
ozzgold 3 years ago 2
Art Thou Troubled, that's what really 'gets' to me ozzgold.
Also many thanks from me RussellK9
rayrac 3 years ago 2
It is "Erbarme dich" from Matthaus Passion that gets to me like nothing else. Heard it on a scratchy LP 40+ years ago and fell in love. Wherever she is, may her memory be for a blessing
yMew88 3 years ago 8
what a wonderful voice
maikedulk 3 years ago 4
The purity of voice, the dignity, the fidelity to the lyrics (altough lovlier in italian). Ms Ferrier´s was one of the greatest, if not the greatest in her genre
ever. A lovely contribution to YouTube! Thank you for posting it!
all276 4 years ago 4
Lovely.
bobbyVisitor 4 years ago 3
No contralto comes close to Ferrier, before or since. Thank you for posting.
anjodian251 4 years ago 2
True contraltos are rare. Most alto roles are played by mezzos.
BayAreaBiker2001 3 years ago 7
T'is true... and very sad :( We are rare creatures!
annadisgrace 3 years ago 6
Perfect, luvinblume
mlucas328 4 years ago 2
Gloriously wonderfuL.
My first influence towards loving opera
iceland111 4 years ago 2
Tip top.
xwsftassell 4 years ago 2
The Human Voice, especially hers, is the most beautiful instrument. Thanks for posting! If someone have her recordings of English folk songs, please post.
Life will never be the same as before I heard her the first time.
svensktigre 4 years ago 3
Thank you so much for posting this. This recording was probably the first opera I ever heard. I remember it being on the radio quite often in the 1950s, and I always loved it, even when I was too little to really understand what it was or who Kathleen Ferrier was.
donbavand49 4 years ago 4
Absolutely beautiful!
minniemoo1 4 years ago 7
So honesty sung.
Sadiesexy 4 years ago 3
Wow! What a voice! :D
BbMinor 4 years ago 4