You people are making him out to be some kind of anti polish, Nazi apologist. The guy wrote a book comparing Hitler and Stalin and one of the conclusions he defends is that Hitlers foreign policy was aggressive whereas Stalins was a little more defensive. And sorry but Versailles wasnt the only cause of world war 2, they were closely linked but one didnt necessarily have to follow from another. David Stevenson in "The History of the First World War" demolishes such highschool simplified notions
Prof. Overy will also tell you that Polish cavalry charged German Tanks. They did not (in fact they won that particular battle of Krojanty) He will tell you that UK broke the Enigma code. They did not. Poland was listening in to Enigma messages back in 1930's Germany when it was in Aug. 39' together with the code cracking equations. Hitler only defeated half of Poland. Remember the cream of Polish forces, bombers & planes were ready to counter attack from East Poland but Russians invaded.
@Vebinz I'm puzzled to see so many "minus points" here... the only wrong thing in this interview is that he doesn't say anything of the Soviet Invasion of Poland.
MrKresowiak You are dame right. At one point he's keep talkin about some bullshit that he is a pacifist but at the same time he's very supportive of hitler. Both of these dont make any sense to me all and all other people
@PolishWingedHussar10 It is easy to label people critical of "established" history as "Nazis". This is a simplistic strategy. I am not a National-Socialist, nor will I ever become one. I am a monarchist, conservative, Catholic, even a democrat. I do not like totalitarian dictatorship - even if they are relatively mild and very popular supported like Hitler and Pétain were. I do not believe in populism or extreme nationalism. I like Habsburg culture. Otto von Habsburg was anti-Hitler.
@IustitiaPax 9TP compared to all other foreign designs was alot better armoured which was about 40mm thick which was the thickest among all european tanks. Greatly improved reliability and movibility would have no fair opponents in september 1939. Well czechoslovakian Panzer 38(t) was the best light tank in world when entered production but 9tp wasnt produced earlyer than July because army didnt felt a great need for a immediate new tank
The Polish and German army would have been so much more even if war started in 1938, but that's why Hitler didn't start the war in 1938, most of modernizing of the Germans army occured between 1938-1939, when the Poles, were steady catching up, that's why Hitler attacked Poland in 1939 and no later. But a major factor in the war was Germany's mobilization and number of transports, which was necessary for the Blitzkrieg. But it you look at battles where there were even odds the Polish usually win
@buildingeverything This is not true. The German Army was weaker than the combined French and Polish armies in 1939. Please note this. Add England to this, and Germany was far weaker. Germany's army production was not at a high level in 1938-1939 at all. Mechanization of the German Army was far behind the French and British Armies. Of course the French did not want to fight. But please remember: France and the UK declared war on Germany on Sept. 3. Not vice-versa. And Poland provoked Germany.
Polish Army had a microscopical number of tanks. The French army had many splendid tanks. But many without the radio. So, as well they would be able to not to exist. What usefulness has the tank without the radio? The army of Reich was theoretically more weak. Practically toinsuperable till stood up on against the General Winter. You ignore the practice.
1. You should speak about those horrible times "Reich", instead of "Germany". Not to cause unpleasantnesses to present Germans. They are today innocent as babies.
2. But before anybody began to provoke Reich, was the creation of the superpower, the remilitarization of Rhineland, entire absorbing of Austria entire absorbing of Czech and the big impudence in the face Gdańsk. Reich had the right to provoke every, nobody had the right to provoke Reich?
@AZsaturn Protectorate of Bohemia & Moravia: not Germany, but Slovak Declaration of Independence on March 11, 1939. Emil Hácha and Czech rump parliament consented. Rhineland liberation was not an aggression. And do you remember the Zaolzie aggressive occupation in 1938?
The Protectorate of Czech & Moravia was for Reich an equivalent of Manchukuo for Japan. At that time only Reich publicly declared pretension of own spread. The practice showed that not lied. Britain, France, Poland declare nothing of the kind. Rhineland? Difference is between liberation and a remilitarization. Gentility order, so that places next door to of borders be peaceful. Zaolzie? The microscopical part of Czech whose the captured proved the unpractical system of alliances.
@AZsaturn Poland annexed Zaolzie in 1938. As for the Protectorate, it was not militarily conquered like Manchukuo! The Czech lands were joined by decree of Dr. Emil Hácha.
@IustitiaPax There is huge difference between an army which was large on paper (i.e French in 1939) and an army which had been preparing for war for several years (i.e German). And in August 1939 German army was prepared to act whereas French was not. Hitler seriously believed that war might start in 1938 when he made his claims against Czechoslovakia. That's why U-boots were deployed on patrols on British waters during Munich conference.
@rrynek The French were not willing to fight, but the French Army was stronger than the German Army in August 1939. Poland first mobilized in March 1939. Not Germany. So much for the "Nazi aggression" myth. In 1938, Poland was as aggressive on Zaolzie (ultimatum to the Czechoslovak government), as it was against Lithuania in 1923 and early 1939. Of course Nazi Germany was not a pacifist saint either, but it was not the sole aggressor at all.
The practice, the practice and once again the practice. The practice showed that Wehrmacht had been more powerful than all other armies. Till discomfited by general Winter. In 1938 only Reich had territorial claims. All evidenced this that the appetite of Reich had increased in due measure eatings. So, every had the right to announce the mobilization. Disgraceful? Knowing your double standards, would not be the disgraceful if hyphothical Wehrmacht mobilization was earlier.
@IustitiaPax Nazi aggression is a fact not a myth and it started well before September 1939. Rhineland, Austria, Sudetenland and then the rest of Czechoslovakia- every time Hitler risked war and France and Britain showed him they would do anything to avoid it. That convinced Hitler he would be able to invade Poland without any real action from French side, no matter how strong French army was. And Poland was just an obstacle on his way to Soviet Union.
@rrynek Rhineland, Austria, Sudetenland, Protektorát néver were military "aggression". If so, then again it would also prove Polish "aggression". Poland annexed Zaolzie from the collapsing Czechoslovak state in September 1938 too! Remember? Zaolzie? And the Protektorát (Cechy & Moravy) was created by CSR president Emil Hácha himself. After Slovak declaration of independence ended the artificial 1st Czechoslovak Republic in March 1939. Memel was peaceful too in March 1939. Danzig could have been!
@IustitiaPax You make it sound like president of independent country decided himself that his country should no longer be independent and should instead be part of Reich. You completely ignore the fact that it ended a period when Czechoslovak Republic was being bullied by Germans. I know that Hitler tried to gain as much as it was possible without firing a shot and tried to make it look legitimate.
@rrynek The Slovak Declaration of Independence in March 1939 was not the result of 'German bullying' at all. You continue to falsify facts. As usual from Polish-brainwashed "re-educated" chauvinists. You just come up with your own suggestions, allegations and myths.
@IustitiaPax These are not my suggestions or any myths and these are not just Polish ideas. The fact is that Munich conference began disintegration of Czechoslovakia and Slovak Declaration of Independence was a continuation. Hitler wouldn't have made any claims against Czechoslovakia if he had not built his army. He knew France and Britain would hesitate to start the war and that Czechoslovakia wouldn't be able to defend itself without help from west.
@buildingeverything Germany did have more tanks than Poland alone, but combined with France, the Allied-Polish troops had far more tanks than Germany. The Polish Army was not thát primitive at all. The Polish Army organized huge parades in Zaolzie, which Poland annexed from Czechoslovakia in 1938, whereas Germany was granted the ethnic German Sudetenland.
@IustitiaPax I never mentioned France and British though I did already know about that all together the Allies outmatched the Germans, but that's where Germans tactics come to play. Plus when I was talking about German's industry and mobilization I never said it was the best, or Germans's industry was batter then anyone else's, just if you compare Germans 1938 and Germany 1939, and Germany 1939 and Poland. Also the Poles never really provoked Germany, German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact anyone?
But yes you're right the poles couldnt claim Lithuanian lands and Poles made a realy shamefull act by attacking lithuania in 1920 by doin so we've betrayed our beloved brother nation. Im very confused with polish history in mean of polish-lithuanian relations and Joseph Pilsudzkis plans for ''Reuniting'' with Lithuania and Recreating the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Why Poles attacked them took away their capital? that question confuses me very much
@PolishWingedHussar10 And if Poland wasnt a unified nation before 1336 had they could gather up the army and stand for fight against Kievan Rus, Czechs, Bohemians and Germans ??? Battles fought against those countries werent small fights for minor lands, these full scale wars waged as Polish Wars. Not wars of tribes. About year 1000 poles conquered whole Slovakia and half of Czech lands. To do so poles need a vast strong nation with king, not just few tribes without fromidable command
@PolishWingedHussar10 Kievan Rus' was a federation of quite tribal monarchical regions too. The Bohemians (Czechs) and Germans did support e.g. Wladyslaw the Exiled. Of course in central Poland, the dukes had authority. But the Polish dukes had no authority or definitive hierarchy whatsoever in Pomerania. Not even in Pomerelia (later Royal or West Prussia), which however by 1220 AD came under Polish influence more and more.
@IustitiaPax Agreed. Pomerenia had been completely germanized in during german rule. But the Germans shouldnt think that Gdansk(Danzig)vis a german city because it was established by Poles and populated by them. It was captured I think in 13th and it changed in hands many many times but in most of Gdansk history it was polish. In mean time during german rule almost all polish citizents of Gdansk were moved to countryside or neighbouring cities
As the eastern border of the historic region Pomerania, accounts itself the outlet of Vistula. Because was such the range of the tribe of Pomeranians. The name of this tribe was used to calling of the region. After the loss by mediaeval Poland of the west of Pomerania, geographers divided on the part eastern and western. A custom is to acknowledge the border between two parts of Pomerania there, where the border of Royal Prussia. Criteria of Prussian brigands are not my problem.
As the eastern border of the historic region Pomerania, accounts itself the outlet of Vistula. Because was such the range of the tribe of Pomeranians. The name of this tribe was used to calling of the region. After the loss by mediaeval Poland of the west of Pomerania, geographers divided on the part eastern and western. A custom is to acknowledge the border between two parts of Pomerania there, where the border of Royal Prussia. Criteria of Prussian brigands are not my problem.
@PolishWingedHussar10 Danzig was always a German town before and after it got town law. As early as 1197 AD, Danzig was designated as a German ethnic city. Of course the Slavic Samborid dynasty ruled, under allegiance to Poland. Danzig was always a Royal Polish city, but entirely ethnic German majority for its entire existence. From the 11th century until 1945-1946. Before that, it was a mixed Baltic-Prussian-Slavic-Viking-Scandinavian-Low-German fishermen settlement. See St. Adalbert.
The absolute truth! And at least since 997 year Gdańsk was an always German city. Always outside borders of Reich. Short duration separations of Gdańsk from Poland always resulted disgraceful doings of externa aggressors. So, in this contestation those aggressors are disqualified. Several hundred thousands of townies do not rule several millions which live round.
@AZsaturn Danzig was an ethnic German city since at least 1100 AD. This is true. Prior to that, it was a Baltic-Slavic village with Scandinavian and later Low German traders, like Vineta once was. Gothiscandza! As for Pomerelia: even in 1772, only 28 % of inhabitants were Slavic, of whom 23 % Kashubians, and 5 % Poles (Starogard Gdanski etc.). 72 % German speakers is a majority. Even in most rural districts. Görlitz is German too, not Sorbian due to villages west of it.
I showed my the politeness, suggesting already 997 year. Because Germans were here a normal occurrence from immemorial time. In 997 year show into being the earliest archaeological source , that is to say the nearing name to "Gdańsk". Where was Gothiscandza? Perhaps Gdańsk is Gothiscandza, because theories speak about the end of Vistula. But Vistula has a delta and not always identical as today.
@AZsaturn I never stated Danzig was a Low German city in 997. It was a village rather, with mixed Scandinavian traders colonies, Low German settlers (from Kiel etc., who lived in Baltic Prussia already too and in some parts of Curonia). But the vast majority was of West Slavic-Baltic mixed ancestry. Before 800 AD, Pomerelia was still Baltic-speaking, Old Prussian land. The Kashubians have Gothic, Baltic and German substrates in language ánd their DNA!
@PolishWingedHussar10 Were you trained such lists at school in the course of Polish chauvinist propaganda. From 997-1308, only Polish duchies existed. No unified state existed back then in Poland. I do not care about states, I just proved firmly that Danzig was ethnic German. Before the 1180s, there was no city in Danzig. And in 1226 AD, Danzig was already Danztice in its seal. There was no "anti-Polish expulsion" in 1308, the Teutonic Order killed German pro-Polish Danzigers. No Poles.
@IustitiaPax Were you trained such lists at school in the course of Polish chauvinist propaganda. No !! Put a side your german arogancy and look into wikipedia, free encyclopedia. I won't reapeat myself again !! In 1920 when Danzig was declared international city the 95% of population was german and rest were poles. It was taken away from poles again in 1793. What happend to Poles?? Did they simply dissapeared or vanished? Maybe you believe in fairy tales??
@rrynek Yes, but even before 1138, the Polish state was not a unitary state. It included West Slavic tribes, Moravians (Czech ethnic tribe), Slovaks, Ruthenians and Baltic Prussians (Kulmer Land and Weichsel delta) too. It was unified as a primitive monarchy, but it was not an ethnic nation-state like in 1919.
The source above I had taken from Wikipiedia, so not all the things which you've wrote down are right. Ethnic German city since 1197?? Very incorrect. It was in german hands since 1308 until 1466. During that time most of polish citizents were removed by force by germans to the countryside or other smaller cities and replaced by germna population. First citizents of gdansk were poles, not germans
@PolishWingedHussar10 Ethnic German is not the same as being in the hands of the Teutonic Order. And the Teutonic Order held large other lands too, like the Kulmer Land which had a slight Slavic (Polish) majority even. And Polish knights were in the Teutonic Order too. I am speaking about Danzig as a city. The first clear proof is the Church of Saint Nicholas "for the Teutons". In 1466 or 1308, no Polish citizens existed. They were not "removed by force". O your Polish "education" is so bad.
@IustitiaPax O your polish ''education'' is so bad. Excuse me?? Listen to me you prick everything I had taken from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Its an international history source. Not your german schoolbooks. If they werent removed by force by German Teutons so tell me what happened then? They went on cheap deal with germans and willingly ,moved to different place?? I dont think so. The oldest Snt Nicholas church was built late 12th century. Gdansk was polish then
@PolishWingedHussar10 Wikipedia is biased and can be easily manipulated. By Polish chauvinists, Communists, liberals, Neo-Nazis, Israelis, Hamas members, Chinese government officials and the CIA. I am not a German, I am an historian, and I studied original Medieval sources myself on Danzig. I said already, that Danzig was under the Samborid dynasty and thus under Polish Crown's reign. But for its ethnic composition, the old city and the city proper were ethnic German.
@IustitiaPax You are not german??? I dont think so. All the text on your profile is in german. Just because Germany is a powerfull nation, achieved incredible gains in science and military doesnt make you All Knowing Smart Asses. In your thinking Poles are completely manipulated by myths and propaganda, you should look at you. 60 years has passed since polish 1939 campaign and still you are keep repeating the bullshit and myths of polish campaign.
@PolishWingedHussar10 I am not a German. I have not even 1 % of German blood. I am 100 % non-German. I do not think Poles are "completely manipulated". But the majority of Poles are indoctrinated on the issue of recent history of Germany and Poland. And also on the Medieval duchies of Poland. Polish "education" thinks nationalism existed in the Middle Ages. It did not. Of course the historical truth is that Poland was an aggressor and caused WW2 over Danzig. Such a tragedy! But fact!
@IustitiaPax Well you are right in that majority of poles are indoctrinated on the issue of recent of germany and poland. If you would've ask 100 poles whos ideological enemy of poland, for sure 80 of them would answer The Germans. Many Poles think that if germans killed 6 millions of poles in wwII makes germany their worst enemy. Me personally I consider ideologicval enemy of poland are russians. Theres not even a single century in which we didnt fight them, with germans we had very few wars
@IustitiaPax Personally I had forgiven germans in my own mind for what they had done to my country.Germans are just our normal neighbour. We had been even allied with them for couple of times in middle ages so I personally I dont hate germans. But above all. If Wikiepedia is aint reliable source, if gdansk is aint realy polish it is your own personall business, not the majority. And if Poland was an agressor in wwII, why germans attacked poles?? You dont need to answer that question, too obvious
"Poland was an aggressor and caused WW2 over Danzig."
Which the Polish division allegedly attacked on Reich? Polish authory over Gdańsk was PURE symbolical. FACTS. In Gdańsk was only 1 official language. You guess which language. I will prompt: Not istro-Romanian. Daily life it differed with nothing from the life before the First World War. These dodgers did not value this great mercy. In that times nobody, except Reich did not have territorial pretensions. This is FACT.
@AZsaturn Over 36 border transgressions by the Polish Army since the Polish mobilization against Germany in March 1939. These lists are verified by both League of Nations' observers, by Swiss journalists and Swedish diplomats. Even Red Cross diplomats in Danzig stated it. Adolf Hitler did not want a "small war" at all, unlike this British historian repeating the "aggressive Hitlerism myth" with "I think". I want historical facts. In all Polish newspapers, new "western Polish annexations".
@IustitiaPax 36 Transgressions by polish military?? Bullshit.There had been many many anti-german attacks commited by poles in which few thousand of innocent germans died but never had been commited any military provokation, well on every border of almost every country there are exchanges of small arm fire between the sites so for sure it happend several times in poland. I can you are very very strong Nazie supporter, did your country didnt suffered enough in wwII ??
@PolishWingedHussar10 The 38 border violations by the Polish Army between June 1939 and August 31, 1939. "Bullshit".... ? Polish mobilization in March 1939? "Bullshit." Polish refusal to renew the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact in April, 1939. "Bullshit!" Once you have done some fair and document-based research on the lead-up to Sept 1, 1939, we can discuss again. I am nót a Nazi supporter. Just because I researched and because I openly preach historical truth? Yes, Holland suffered.
@PolishWingedHussar10 Like in Poland, in the Netherlands, the civilians came to suffer, due to compromising of our Dutch neutrality by our Dutch secret services in Nov., 1939. The Dutch people suffered, like the Polish people did due to Józef Beck and Rydz-Smigly and their military pro-British anti-German aggressions. I support historical truth. I do not support National-Socialism at all. I am a democrat, a Catholic, I am anti-racist, a European peace supporter. I am not even 0.5 % German.
@IustitiaPax Well you are supporter of Anarchists. Well Apppeasment invented by cowardous british and their leader Nevel Chemberlain is something you very adore. Anexation of Austria, Sudets, Czech and part of Lithiuania would'nt lead to war ??Every nation has right to fight for its lands. Hilters plans were form beginning to anhialate Russians and make Lebensraum come to existence. By givin all those comments supportive of Hiler you dont sound so peacefull
@PolishWingedHussar10 Neville Chamberlain was forced into war, by the British war party under Churchill, Baruch and Anthony Eden. Chamberlain in a letter of Sept. 10, 1939 to his sister admitted, that Hitler had made great and large peace offers to England. On September 13, 1939, Hitler even offered to retreat and restore Poland, if the UK would accept peace with Germany.
@PolishWingedHussar10 You Poles just do not know about these Nazi German diplomatic peace offers, even benefiting the Polish collapsing militaristic regime. Hitler was provoked, acted on Sept 1, 1939, but he realized that he had fallen into the British-French-Polish war conspiracy pit. The annexation of Austria was supported by a majority of Austrians (despite Austro-Fascist Heimwehr regime from 1931-38), likewise the Sudetenland.
@IustitiaPax It is not about knowledge about German diplomatic peace offers because you are not the first person who speaks about them. The thing is that you cannot guarantee that after receiving what he wanted he wouldn't come later for more. And you cannot guarantee he wouldn't ignore pacts and agreements with Poland- those were just pieces of paper. You should also remember that Polish, French and British war preparations were not coordinated
@rrynek The Polish military chiefs all coordinated their war preparations with the British admiralty and French politicians (Reynaud etc.) from May 1939. Rydz-Smigly was more in London than w Warszawie!
@IustitiaPax The problem was that this coalition was still under construction at the time when Hitler was already prepared for war against Poland. Hitler wasn't concerned that France and Britain would attack from west, otherwise he would have left majority of his forces on the west- this would have prevented him from attacking Poland.
@IustitiaPax The only thing that really worked was that Poland sent 3 destroyers to Great Britain, and that simply meant handing them over to Royal Navy together with their crews. I guess Poland was meant receive something instead- either planes or tanks, but it never happened. Great Britain and France hesitated for very long before they declared war on Germany, the longer they waited the worse situation of Polish army was.
@rrynek The Polish-French-British alliance was only intended to provoke war. It was intended that way by the war fraction in England (Churchill and Eden). You do not know about secret geopolitics. Already on Sept. 3, 1939, the UK and France declared war against Germany. By the time, Hitler had already offered peace numerous times to the UK and France. A peace conference. Hitler only wanted Danzig Plebiscite and a Polish Corridor (West Prussia, Pomorze Gdanskie) transit high way.
@IustitiaPax In October 1939 Polish Army ceased to exist and Poland wasn't a threat to Germany any more. Hitler would've shown a good will if he had withdrawn his forces from Poland. He could have left an army in territories he believed should be integrated with Germany. This would prove he really wanted a only disputed territories and not entire Poland. But Ribbentrop-Molotov pact shows slightly different picture of what he wanted.
@rrynek Hitler offered on Sept 2, Sept 3, Sept 8 and Sept 11, 1939 peace proposals: restoring Poland, recognizng the Polish western border entirely, a Danzig Plebiscite. The French military knew this and while the Reynaud-Daladier-Blum parties wanted war against Germany, the French people did no longer. "Pourquoi mourir pour Dantzig?" This French saying already proves what I stated. The peace offers by Hitler were all rejected. The war provocation had been succesful. Hitler was tricked.
@IustitiaPax Hitler knew that if he acted quickly he would defeat Poland without necessity of sending additional troops to fight on western front. Invasion in Poland was well planned and well executed- now compare it to chaotic French, British and Polish efforts in 1939. It was also visible in 1940 when Great Britain refused to send more soldiers and fighter squadrons to France because they didn't want weaken their own defence.
@IustitiaPax Minor Fortification workss had started on western border, like Mlawa line, Pomerania site, Westterplatte, Polish-British-French co-operation started and poles were beggining to purchase foreign military equipment and takin the very very huge loans from France and also in future they planned to take alot bigger loan from US to take up drastic changes in their military. Full mobilization supposed to take in spring 1940. Not in march 1939
The diplomacy was a greatest weak point of Reich. In the true diplomacy one does not require the annexation of territories without the offering of something as the reciprocation. Dos not infringe the balance of power. Does not cause the horror of neighbours. No insolences. Before the provocation of Reich, provoked other. But this is not disgraceful? Nobody has the right freely to draught new borders, negligent for the opinion of neighbours.
@PolishWingedHussar10 Do you believe in national auto-determination? The Memelland population wanted to be incorporated into the Reich. Lithuania was chanceless in a plebiscite, so in March 1939 they ceded Memel. Poland should have done the same with the city of Danzig in April 1939. The protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia was caused in March 1939 by the sudden Slovak Declaration of Independence, ending the artificial Czechoslovak state. Dr. Hácha signed Czech lands into a Protektorát.
@IustitiaPax And if poles had realy started full mobilization in march, in september Poles would've gathered up a lot bigger war arsenal, more modern and they would 've been ready for war. They werent in August
They would have a lot more planes like PZL 37, PZL 46 and possibly had ready fighter aircraft to face BF109's. A lot more anti-tank rifle and cannons and a lot more modern tanks like polish 7tp and 9tp which was possibly were the best tank in world along with Czech Skoda 38
@PolishWingedHussar10 The Rhineland, Austria, Sudetenland, Memel (Memelland) were very peaceful and even democratic. The German annexations did not please militaristic Polish regime and the British war party of Churchill, Bernard Baruch and Anthony Eden, but they were democratic. Any plebiscite would have supported them in Danzig, Memelland. Hitler never claimed the German-speaking Alsace/Elsass, because its Catholic population resented Prussia and was autonomist. But Danzig was German.
@IustitiaPax PZL 37 Los was one of the best bomber designs in world then and it had very few fair counterparts . Great bomb load, great speed and manouvrability. You should imagine what it could done in september if it had been deployed in a lot bigger numbers. Polish September Campaign would 've had eneded in alot differetn way as it had. Poles couldnt defeat germans alone because they didnt take any huge moblization before August.
@PolishWingedHussar10 No, Poland alone could not defeat Germany's armed forces in a 1:1 fight. But the French-British-Polish two front scenario meant that the German army would have to split. Polish forces were far stronger than any 50 % of the German forces. Only Blitzkrieg Prussian military genius secured the Sept. 1939 victory of Germany. As well as the total fanatical but uncoordinated Polish military leadership, surprised by the September 17, 1939 Soviet invasion.
@IustitiaPax I recommend that you compare a number of tanks on both sides and number of planes. Germany had 5 times more fighters than Poland, not to mention that they were of much better quality. Polish 7TP tanks were better than Panzer I or Panzer II but not better than Czech tanks which German used. Poland received only very small number of French tanks. Those were the main types of weapon used during the war and only Polish infantry had similar equipment to German counterparts.
@IustitiaPax Your claim about Polish forces being far stronger than any 50% of German forces is completely false. Poland badly needed new equipment but neither France nor Great Britain could supply sufficient number of tanks or planes without weakening their own defence.
@IustitiaPax Bliztcrieg failed and german hihg command droped away the blitzcrieg tactics and went back on traditional methods of fighting the enemy on 12th of september. Fighting around Bzura, Modlin, Lwów and many other locations showed that blitzcrieg wasnt working anymore after 13 days of fighting when Poles figured out how possibly knock out germans and resistance dramaticly stifined .
@PolishWingedHussar10 Do you realize, that until September 16, 1939, the Poznan, Warsaw, Kraków and other newspapers all declared about German territories west of the Neisse and Oder to be ceased from the Reich? And that the Polish troops would be victorious after the British and French westward invasion? On Sept 3, 1939, huge crowds in Warsaw celebrated the British and French declarations of war against Germany and Slovakia. Germany on Sept. 1, 1939 just acted earlier. French were unwilling.
@IustitiaPax Yeah, and the same newspapers claimed in August 1939 there would be no war. I guess German forces in area of Warsaw on the 10th of September were far more convincing than some newspapers. And it seems that those papers couldn't be printed in Poznan area because local "Poznan" Army was withdrawn from this territory in early stages of invasion- since no-one attacked them they started moving towards Warsaw to support other Polish units.
@IustitiaPax On the 12th of September Poznan was already in German hands so on the 16th of September any newspaper claiming what you've mentioned would look a little odd. And I think it is nothing unusual about civilians celebrating after friendly nations "joined" fight against invaders.
@IustitiaPax It was only polish propaganda which supposed to rise the populations morale, nothin else. All ready after two weaks of fighting poles where beginig to know that there will be no help from western allies so any predictions about future germanys downfall in matter of few weeks was only morale boosting propaganda, nothing else. By the way you said germans won over the poles in classic Blitzcrieg, this is not realy true.
Your toadying in the face Reich is more and more disgusting. Stupid newspapers dreamt themselves the conquest of Reich. Its worse than the meteorite which killed dinosaurs. More pettifogging. Reich did all, to terrify all neighbouring countries. The celebration of the pseudoallies prior to their embassies in Warsaw was a natural reflex on attacking us. That as if citizens had to do something inverse? This six-year-old nightmare would last very short, but for western cowards.
Rhineland all time was Reich. Remilitarization literally levelling a gun of pistol into France. French government was too cowardly, to react necessary. "Austria, Sudetenland, Memel..." Europe isnt a island, but continent with many states. Change borders even with approval of local people cant be effected so-so as parking car. Always some influence on other. Instance, obtainment of grounds which were suitable to potential attack against neighbours of Reich. Balance of power is important.
@AZsaturn Memelland, Sudetenland, Danzig, Austria were all democratically wanted annexations. Only Poland made a casus belli out of it.
In 1936, even Polish diplomats approved of Rhineland liberation from Entente occupation by Germany. And you still forget Zaolzie 1938 and the 1938 Polish ultimatum to Lithuania over Vilnius Region formalization. Poland was an aggressor. The Reich was not, although it was not pacifist.
@IustitiaPax Pacifist ??!! What kind of idiot might ever say that. Oh ye I know the guy whos on crack all day just like in Holland. Legal cannabis, I can see you're makin big use of it. The Reich wasnt an agressor?? I never ever heard such indiscriminate crap which creeped up i your old mind. You sound like a dame Neo-Nazie or Anarchist. They killed so many milions of innocent people. It was Reichs dream to conquer France and have their revenge over its old enemies, no so peacefull
@PolishWingedHussar10 The Reich was not pacifist, but PEACEFUL in its international diplomacy. Hitler wanted to evade a war with other anti-communist peoples like the Poles and the Englishmen. You fail to recognize this historical fact, because you deny the British-Polish-French war guilt in 1939. The 1941 Operation Barbarossa is another story of course, although even there, Hitler acted preemptively and not as an aggressor. But Nazism-Communism was an ideological war.
@IustitiaPax Poland, Great Britain and France could've acted earlier- they could have attacked Germany earlier to get rid of Hitler. If Poland had wanted any German territories it would have attacked in early 1930's, when German army was too weak, to defend the country. But Poland didn't do anything like this because it wouldn't be accepted and it would lead to political isolation.
@IustitiaPax Poland didn't build a massive army in 1930's, it couldn't spend as much money as Germany or Soviet Union did, upgrading their military power. It seems like France and England deliberately allowed Hitler to ignore limitations imposed on Germany after World War I, because they thought it would provide military balance in Europe and they were aware that Stalin had already started upgrading Red Army.
@IustitiaPax I am not sure if Hitler really wanted to evade war- he could've said clearly he wanted to fight with Soviet Union only. But it wasn't just that- he wanted to expand German territory by adding land which was in control of other countries. And I don't think it was just Gdansk- remember that in 1939 Poland consisted mostly of territories of former Russian Empire, which where conquered by Germans during World War I.
@IustitiaPax The fact is that Hitler started the war against Soviet Union, he started hostilities so by default he was an aggressor. I am aware that Uncle Joe was preparing the same thing but Hitler gave Russians a propaganda gift so they claim now they were attacked and they did whatever was necessary to defend themselves. And they were surprised in 1941, judging by their defence efforts.
@IustitiaPax By saying he acted pre-emptively you may try to convince some people that his aggression was justified but he was an aggressor nonetheless. And Hitler's diplomacy, no matter how 'peaceful' it might seemed was always supported by his army. The biggest weapon in his arsenal was that France, Great Britain and Poland didn't really know how strong or how weak he was.
@IustitiaPax Yes partially agreed. I know from my sources that in probably in 1933 or 1934 Hitler had offered an allience to Joseph Pilsudzki. Adolf Hitler knew predictions, personality and commanding skills of Joseph Pilsudzki and also that Poles although extremely inadequatly underquiped and in tragic situation in 1920 but yet they yet won over soviets. Such an allie like Poland would be very vital in future war with USSR but somehow Joseph with polish army refused and that confuses me a bit
Reich was peaceful? The joke in the bad taste. If you work in the cabaret, necessarily change your job. Wieluń wasnt a Reich city which massacred by allied air force. This is FACT whose you dont acknowledge. The peaceful diplomacy doesnt require increasingly of territories, and also despises the fact that can this be unprofitable for many other countries. There pursuing your course of the reasoning, Reich would be able to completely without bloodshed to conquer the all continent.
The reason of the war between USSR and Reich was not the ideology. But pure interestedness: Europe was too small for two all-powerful rotters. Only Stalin had then the potential to the destruction of Reich. Only Hitler had then the potential to the destruction USSR. It is all reasons of the east front. The ideology had an influence only in the Geobels's propaganda.
@AZsaturn No, 1941 was about ideology and a German Preventive War against offensive internationalist Marxism-Leninism under the Stalin regime and elsewhere. You know. You just do not admit because you are Germanophobe. God bless your ignorance with wisdom. I wish you a blessed Christmas! Szczęść Boże!
I am forced to acknowledge that I am ill several phobias. I do not know medical names of this phobias. My phobias are against: the pseudodiplomacy, to the conceit, the fad, the leftists in every form, the infringement of the balance of power. So that the as if national socialism be less expansive than the ordinary communism? These two kinds of the leftists differ only with the opinion in the matter of the eugenics. Let God bless your double standards, so that they become equal.
@AZsaturn Yes but also no. Goebbels propaganda had to do with Hitlers ideals, which had to do with German interests, so your last argument is negated. Also it was Hitlers principal idea to expand to the East way before he became the leader of Germany. This is described in his book "Lebensraum". Th Second World War was perhaps not a war of ideology, but the Germans-Russian war was. Look at "lebensraum" and see it for yourself. Id be happy to talk about this.
@IustitiaPax Oh, you've changed your mind. In one of you previous post you claimed Reich was not a sole aggressor, now you claim it wasn't an aggressor. It's just getting whiter and whiter...
Still you do not understand one important matter: Has not on planet Earth regions which can be treated as independent planets. Every change definite belongings of the region has an influence on all countries in the radius many kilometres. Inhabitants of regions cannot despise this fact. They do not live on other planet. The incalculable arrogance. I have an absolute memory. Zaolzie was an equivalent of the new artificial "Sudetenland". Still double standards.
@PolishWingedHussar10 Hitler néver planned to "annihilate Russians". Hitler wanted to crush Communism ideologically at some future date, indeed. Lebensraum means new settlement space, but not the war with the USSR or "annihilation". Volga Germans of 18th century did not "exterminate Russians" either. I am personally very peaceful. I am not a pacifist, but I oppose historical propaganda and historical lies. I hate lies. Even if they lie about Hitler. I do not like internal Nazi dictatorship!
@IustitiaPax How could he "crush Communism ideologically" without getting rid of communists who ruled Soviet Union? And the only way to do it was by getting rid of Red Army, because Stalin wouldn't just walk away. Your faith in Hitler's "peaceful" ways of solving problems is truly astonishing especially given the evidence of what really happened before and during II world war.
@rrynek The ideological conflict between Nazism and Communism would have been fought in another sequence. Stalin prepared a war against Eastern, Central and even Western European countries from 1939, and wanted to launch it is August 1941. Read Viktor Suvorov and numerous other military historians. Even Martin van Creveld (Israeli historian) admits this.
@IustitiaPax You've said in one of your comments about polish mobilization. You had said many bullshit but now you've realy crossed the line of idiotism. You're assumming that poles started full moblization of the army in march 1939. I dont know what had crreped up in your old mind but now you've showed pure idiotism and unlogistic thinking. Let me tell what Poles had managed to do between March till August. Poles had started partial preparements toward possible war with nazi germany
@IustitiaPax You've said in one of your comments about polish mobilization. You had said many bullshit but now you've realy crossed the line of idiotism. You're assumming that poles started full moblization of the army in march 1939. I dont know what had crreped up in your old mind but now you've showed pure idiotism and unlogistic thinking. Let me tell what Poles had managed to do between March till August. Poles had started partial preparements toward possible war with nazi germany
The reason of the attack of Reich on USSR was very prose and pragmatic: Europe was too small for two very powerful beasts. Only Stalin had the potential to destroy Reich. Though not yet woken up. Only Hitler had the potential to destroy USSR. He miscarry, because was a loser, not a strategist.
I spoke a hundred times and I repeat once again: The historical truth and the interpretation of the historical truth are different matters. Your interpretation is always disposed on one conclusion: All are guilty, except Reich. Even if I do not know how much insolent demands of Reich. Did you forget that first concentration camps had existed already in 1933? This nightmare would be able to end very quickly, if French and British military were not small kittens.
Over 36 transgressions? Who supplied documentary evidence it? If it is true, why was the incident in Gliwice? It would result that it would be superfluous. You attend the announcement of the mobilization as the provocation? Yes! This was the real provocation of Reich. But Reich used provocations earlier. The aggrandisement the territory, so the violation of the balance of power. Everybody else neighbourhood and Britain behaved as frightened kittens.
Only criterion to calling of Pomerania so as it is called, was the range of the tribe of Pomeranians. At the farthest east, Pomeranians lived at the outlet of Vistula. The loss of Szczecin Pomerania by Poland after Middle Ages, did not change the name of Gdańsk Pomerania. The name Royal Prussia and Gdańsk Pomerania was used simultaneously. There are no reasons, so that celebrate {by-pass} me the administrative division of the Kingdom of Prussia.
@AZsaturn Royal Prussia comes from the Teutonic Order State, the Monastic State of Prussia, to which it belonged from 1308 until 1466. You can use Pomerelia, Danzig Pomerania, West Prussia and Royal Prussia or Polish Prussia. No problem. Historians use them altogether.
Firstly: You won. Teutonic Knights were a mediaeval equivalent of Red Cross, so in the same way internationalist. Not important how sounded their entire name. Because I used their shortened name. Secondly: Always, when Poland Gdańsk, this was the effect of the disgraceful aggression from outside. It never was a present from Polish hands. Thirdly: from the mathematical point of view, the membership of Gdańsk to Poland is longissimus axled of the time.
@AZsaturn In 1795 AD, the Danzig city council itself voted to join the kingdom of Prussia democratically. From 1772 AD already surrounding West Prussia had been joined to the Prussian kingdom. I agree that Danzig is an ethnic German majority city with the closest ties to the Crown of Poland. Closer than to the relatively young kingdom of Prussia. But Poland in 1919 and 1939 and 1945 was an ethnic nation-state! It was no successor to the Kingdom of the Poland.
"In 1795 AD, the Danzig city council itself voted to join the kingdom of Prussia democratically."
Town council an administratively highest instance? By what right one-sided annulled all contracts of 1466? This illegal decision. Not counting political system, the II Republic had all guilds of the I Republic. The Weimar republic was a successor of the Prussia which wronged very much the I Republic. So, is immoral, so that the Weimar Republic keep anything from among booties.
@PolishWingedHussar10 Nationalism did not exist in 1308 or 1466. Sorry. The Teutonic Order was not the nationalistic force the Polish 19th century historians made out of it. Your Polish historical education is just full of crap and propaganda. Danzig was an ethnic German town even before 1197 logically. Of course, the Samborids and Pomerelia pledged allegiance to the Polish Crown. So did entirely German-speaking Danzig in e.g. 1699. That does not make Danzigers ethnic Polish!
@IustitiaPax Danzig was an ethnic German town even before 1197 logically. For sure you'll pretend you are deaf so I repeat you check the Wikipedia, free encyclopedia not german schoolbooks. The man who established the city was Mieszko I the first king of poland. The first inhabitants of Gdansk area were the Goths from Skandinavia which they replaced Oksywie Culture and in 7th century it was replaced by Pomeranians (Slavic tribe). You didnt prove that Gdansk is ethnicaly a german city.
@PolishWingedHussar10 I do not accept Wikipedia as a reliable source. Gdannycze as a village was a mixed Slavic-Baltic village, and Saint Adalbert baptized many Baltic Old Prussians in the Danzig area. Also, Scandinavians and Low Germans existed already in 997, although not yet forming the majority.
@PolishWingedHussar10 Original Medieval texts, not "German school books". If modern German books do anything, it is repeating the "Anti-Fascist" and Pan-Slavic Soviet-era myths on archeology. That is why Poles still believe that the Willenberg-Braunswalde Culture was "Slavic", although it was entirely East Germanic (not West Germanic like the Germans were). There are so many falsifications. I just say, that the city of Danzig was always ethnic German until 1946.
@IustitiaPax I dont think I should continue this completely senseless conversation. You are a fuckin ignorant, arogant and lying fuck. Germans caused 20 milions of deaths in wwII and the fault will never shade away. Wikipedia, free encyclopedia is ain't reliable source for you??? Its controled by polish chauvinists, Communists, liberals, Israelis, Hamas members, Chinese government officials and the CIA, is thats how you think????? You sound like a Nazi.
@PolishWingedHussar10 Wikipedia is useful in many cases, like in discussing Julius Caesar etc. But on modern 19th century and 20th century history and even religious and morality issues, wikipedia is manipulated, biased and full of propaganda. If you fail to see this, this does not favour my intellectual impression of you. I also stated that Neo-Nazis can manipulate articles (although they are fewer and less powerful than wikipedia Communists). Just be more critical. I like Polish history mostly
Your arguments summing up, one offers the one conclusion: In the hypothetical situation, but for was not partitionings, then Danzigers also would have the right to announce the secession without the indemnity. To the hell with all contracts, which up to here {hitherto} complied. Most important is their conceit. Teutonic Knights were an ovule of the Kingdom of Prussia. They were a modest ovule, whence was born the glutton. Kingdom of Prussia.
@AZsaturn In the late 18th century, the Lutheran and German national city of Danzig sympathized with Prussia. But in 1308 and 1466, Danzig as an ethnic German city never sympathized with the Teutonic Order. The Teutonic Order was not a nationalist project back then, but just a religious-political entity. With many Polish and Silesian Teutonic Knights as well. And ethnic Czechs. Königsberg was named after the Czech king of Bohemia....
I implore You! Do not refer on Wikipedia! You compromise us all. In the true encyclopaedia, every text is verified by the large group of research workers before printing.
@AZsaturn Who to hell you talkin about ?? Who am I compromising ?? The thing that every text is verified by the large group of research workers before printing wikipedia the free encyclopaedia and for me its the most trustfull and most reliable source of all kind of information
The Polish State and its top politicians all wanted to annex eastern Germany and crush Germany in 1939. Poland did not want peace in 1939, despite Hitler's offers. This British historian speaks mostly truth, but it is speculative nonsense to claim that Hitler WANTED war against Poland. He did not, until at least Aug 28, and even in Sept 3 he wanted peace and on Sept 14, 1939, he again offered peace and restoration of Poland. The true causes of the 1939 invasion are neglected. British guilt!
@IustitiaPax Maybe its true what you are sayin but theres even one more intresting information. Hitler in probably in 1934 offfered Joseph Pilsudzki a treaty Polish-German alience to attack and destroy USSR but suprisingly he refused, it's very weard for me because poles at the time then they considered the USSR a mortal enemy and greatest threat to their independance
@PolishWingedHussar10 Józef Pilsudski refused, because the Entente pressured him out of a 1934 full Polish-German alliance. The USSR was created by Wallstreet bankers and kept on its feet by them. Of course Polish anti-German hatred also played a huge part in Marsz. Pilsudski's decision.... Communism was a danger. Millions would die due to it after 1934.
@IustitiaPax Yea probably milions of Poles would've end up the same way as the Ukrainians in 1932/33 famine when close to 10 milion starved to death. But anti-german hatred in Poland wasn't just as intense as hatred toward Bolsheviks and Rusians. In history of Poland there times when Polandd was allied to germany like in battle of Vienna 1683, battle Moscow 1612 and few more but we've never been allied with Russian
@PolishWingedHussar10 I agree. Still, I think anti-Russian hatred is wrong too. Hatred of ideological Communism is fine, but never hate peoples. The Bolsheviks were not all Russians, and not all Russians were Bolsheviks, on the contrary. I fear, that the Polish-Ukrainian War (1918-1919) and the Polish conflicts with some White anti-communist Russian units weakened anti-Bolshevik resistance inside the Russian Empire too. Yes, I know Poland saved Europe twice.
, I know Poland saved Europe twice. " Indeed. Poles saved Europe twice:
First time: Tadeusz Rozwadowski. Second time: Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski. They destroy Wehrmacht before created. They were the first hackers in history.
@AZsaturn Kukliński was a hero of course, but I think that WW3 would have not been fought over Poland anyhow. Jordan-Rozwadowski was a hero too mostly. The ENIGMA crack-down was important, but not per se militarily essential. Military power is.
Kuklinski was a spy so outstanding that it was outside the list of suspects. Czeslaw Kiszczak said that the KGB or other counter-intelligence believed that the spy was the Jaruzelski.
But I forgot about one Pole. He saved the whole world: Ryszard Kuklinski. He prevented the Third World War. He never returned to Homeland, because even today rule by communism. Only less explicitly. It will take 100 years before he will be admired as it should be. His monument must be in each city, which has more than two residents. Pole who saved all mankind.
@IustitiaPax One of the main reasons of Whites failure in civil war their aroagance toward Poland and Finland, Poland and Finland made an offer to Tsarists Rusia to assist in ffightin against the Reds but demand of Poland was to regain its border from 1772. Tsar Micholai found it imposiblle because after it Poland would've reborn itself as strong neighbour and Tasr didnt wanted that.
@PolishWingedHussar10 Why should Poland in 1919 demand Smolensk and Minsk Litewski as "Polish territory" to the anti-Bolshevik White movement? This was Polish arrogance in fact. Anti-Communism is more important than Polish ethnic Belarussian and ethnic Russian 18th century kresy wschodnie. Not? Poland made a mistake. Finland was too weak and abused.
@IustitiaPax - I think, when we look at 1919 we should see the perpective of people in those times. Poland was becoming independent after the partitions and a natural thought was to bring back the state before the partitions. Czar and czarists were remembered as great oppressors (in fact White movent did not recognize the independence of Poland). Russian revolution was seen as something maybe excentric, but not long-lasting. From todays perspective we say it was wrong, but not then.
@IustitiaPax You realy didnt see polish map from 1772, Poles at time then didnt posesed the Smolensk. I dont think poles could even help whites as they realy didnt cared who was who, russian is russian. We never got along with russians in positive ways. We've always fought ruskies in every century of our existence so we would never put our trust into russian promises. Our nation wa occupied for 123 years, when poland was reborn they wanted their lands back and they had right to claim them
@PolishWingedHussar10 Minsk Litewski was. But Minsk is not Lithuanian. You confuse multi-ethnic monarchies with ethnic nation-states. In 1919, there were no Polish kings or monarchs from Lithuania. Not at all. The ethnic nation-state of Poland could not claim territories not ethnic Polish. And please notice, that West Prussia in 1910 was 67 % German-speaking, and Silesia was 76 % German-speaking, and 24 % Slavic-speaking, but almost entirely pro-German. Poland was an aggressive state for decades
@IustitiaPax For almost 500 or 600 years the river Dniepr was a natural boundary between Ukraine and Poland. In that time Galicia had towns populated with almost poles only and countryside was by ukrainians. Just like Lwów is infact a polish city, always was and it should be because it was established and populated by poles, it was taken away from us in 1946. For example the Kalingrad. That city infact is a german city, Once it belonged to Poles and now Russians but its a german city anyway
@IustitiaPax East Prussia was always german so poles shouldnt poses those lands in my opinion. But I want to inform you Silesia at first was inhabited by poles for about 400 years and then it fell to the germans. Wroclaw or other Known as Breslau was established by the poles. Also the second dynasty of poland The Piast dynasty came from silesia
@PolishWingedHussar10 Silesia from 1147 AD until 1945 was pledging allegiance to Germany, to German (Holy Roman) Emperors. Silesia was conquered by both Polish Piasts, Bohemian (Czech and German-speaking) kings in the 10th and 11th centuries alike. Silesia was never exclusively Polish before 1147 AD. Poland as a unified state never existed before ca. 1386 AD in fact. The Polish tribe lived in Wielkopolska, Malopolska and Masovia. Nowhere else. Slavic Silesians are not Poles originally.
@IustitiaPax I can agree with you, I even watched a short documentary on polish TV that some of Hihg officials in Silesia(In German, Czech and Polish) parts were makin some future plans or ideas of creatin a new country. State of Silesia. You've said that Poland didnt existed as a unified. You are very wrong in this one. Poles or Lendyels(Thats how poles were called before 13th century) had their tribes very recognizible in some 7th cenuty AD and in 966 it formed a formidable nation
@PolishWingedHussar10 Of course Poland was a nation and a collection of Slavic tribes in present central Poland and w Malopolsce in the 11th century, but Poland was not a unified state or kingdom at that time. It was a loosely organized duchy. Already in 1147 AD Silesia and in 1163 AD Pomerania seceded finally from suzerainty to the Polish dukes. Poland did not have the central authority of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation.
@IustitiaPax Well Poland was an obiedent nation to the Watikan and Catholic Church but to Germanic Catholic League they werent. As nation german Teutonic Knights were very very agressive oponnet Poland and Lithuania. They seized many polish cities like Gdansk(Danzig) and made many raids into polish kingdom. They gathered up knights from all over europe etc; germans, english, french, spanish and many other kingst from orders united with Teutonic Order to fights poles in tanneberg, total defeat
@IustitiaPax Yes the Poland became a very fragile and partitioned nation in 13th century, but it wasnt case with poland only. All eastern europe became partitioned
During decades, the Kingdom of Prussia and Second Reich was a state of hippies. Your double standards are already proverbial.
If the definite state changed own political system, then does not stop to be himself. The political system of the Second Polish Republic was unlike to the political system of the First Republic. But all remaining guilds are identical. The ignorement of this fact is a scholasticism.
The slander. Between the humiliation of the Red Army in 1920 and the attack of Reich in 1939, Poland did not sit in on wars. The alliance of Britain, Frances and Poland would be inexcusable only hypothetical non existed the threat of the superpower Reich with pretension of the enlargement of its own influence. The practice showed that the threat had been real, but this alliance existed only paper.
@PolishWingedHussar10 And do not forget the Battle of Wahlstatt (1945-2010 Legnickie Pole, 1945-47 Dobre Pole) near Liegnitz (Legnica) in Lower Silesia, where the Teutonic Order, Polish knights, Bohemian knights, German soldiers together fought against the Mongol onslaught from the east. In fact, Poland as a Polanie unity was founded by the German Holy Roman Emperor Otto III in Gniezno, where he crowned Boleslaw I in 1000 AD.
@PolishWingedHussar10 Sad, the Poland did not fought along Germany against reds, choose the wrong side and caused Russia to win the war at the end. WW II was the end of game for Europe, like a civil war, so the muslims could colonize Europe and they will be majority sooner than later.
@IustitiaPax Poland had a nonaggression pact with Germany in 1939 yawn lol. I don't see why Hitler hated it so much. He hated Slavs long before any of that.
in large part, this represents a highly biased opinion of yet another Little Englander, but hey, what would you deliver to (RT) Russia Today? Poor
carp3nt3r 1 week ago
You people are making him out to be some kind of anti polish, Nazi apologist. The guy wrote a book comparing Hitler and Stalin and one of the conclusions he defends is that Hitlers foreign policy was aggressive whereas Stalins was a little more defensive. And sorry but Versailles wasnt the only cause of world war 2, they were closely linked but one didnt necessarily have to follow from another. David Stevenson in "The History of the First World War" demolishes such highschool simplified notions
InvincibleNumanist 2 months ago
cont
the full title of the book for those interested is "1914-1918 The History of the First World War"
InvincibleNumanist 2 months ago
Prof. Overy will also tell you that Polish cavalry charged German Tanks. They did not (in fact they won that particular battle of Krojanty) He will tell you that UK broke the Enigma code. They did not. Poland was listening in to Enigma messages back in 1930's Germany when it was in Aug. 39' together with the code cracking equations. Hitler only defeated half of Poland. Remember the cream of Polish forces, bombers & planes were ready to counter attack from East Poland but Russians invaded.
starsky6991 8 months ago 10
@starsky6991 In this you are right. Nevertheless Poland was no match for Germany's Blitzkrieg tactic
Logicman132 3 months ago
Very good interview, though it covers the basics.
DSadly, too many idiots with an agenda in this comment section.
prof.Overy is highly respected in the field of WWII, and his word is more trustworthy than some moron on Youtube.
Vebinz 11 months ago
@Vebinz I'm puzzled to see so many "minus points" here... the only wrong thing in this interview is that he doesn't say anything of the Soviet Invasion of Poland.
zapasiewicz 3 weeks ago
@zapasiewicz
You're right. That's something that too many people do over-look/ignore.
Maybe because it doesn't fit in with the image of Hitler as the sole villain.
Vebinz 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
Nothing new here. Move along.
stickitupyapipe 1 year ago
Poland was just betrayed by France and UK, they would not only stop WWII and Nazis saving tons of lives but also there would never be cold war and.
rhaston01 1 year ago
@rhaston01 Poland provoked the Nazi invasion of 1939 itself, and by its alliance.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
lustitiapax is a nazi scum. He spreads nazi propaganda using youtube. Just ignore him.
MrKresowiak 1 year ago
MrKresowiak You are dame right. At one point he's keep talkin about some bullshit that he is a pacifist but at the same time he's very supportive of hitler. Both of these dont make any sense to me all and all other people
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 It is easy to label people critical of "established" history as "Nazis". This is a simplistic strategy. I am not a National-Socialist, nor will I ever become one. I am a monarchist, conservative, Catholic, even a democrat. I do not like totalitarian dictatorship - even if they are relatively mild and very popular supported like Hitler and Pétain were. I do not believe in populism or extreme nationalism. I like Habsburg culture. Otto von Habsburg was anti-Hitler.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax 9TP compared to all other foreign designs was alot better armoured which was about 40mm thick which was the thickest among all european tanks. Greatly improved reliability and movibility would have no fair opponents in september 1939. Well czechoslovakian Panzer 38(t) was the best light tank in world when entered production but 9tp wasnt produced earlyer than July because army didnt felt a great need for a immediate new tank
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
The Polish and German army would have been so much more even if war started in 1938, but that's why Hitler didn't start the war in 1938, most of modernizing of the Germans army occured between 1938-1939, when the Poles, were steady catching up, that's why Hitler attacked Poland in 1939 and no later. But a major factor in the war was Germany's mobilization and number of transports, which was necessary for the Blitzkrieg. But it you look at battles where there were even odds the Polish usually win
buildingeverything 1 year ago
@buildingeverything This is not true. The German Army was weaker than the combined French and Polish armies in 1939. Please note this. Add England to this, and Germany was far weaker. Germany's army production was not at a high level in 1938-1939 at all. Mechanization of the German Army was far behind the French and British Armies. Of course the French did not want to fight. But please remember: France and the UK declared war on Germany on Sept. 3. Not vice-versa. And Poland provoked Germany.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
Comment removed
buildingeverything 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Polish Army had a microscopical number of tanks. The French army had many splendid tanks. But many without the radio. So, as well they would be able to not to exist. What usefulness has the tank without the radio? The army of Reich was theoretically more weak. Practically toinsuperable till stood up on against the General Winter. You ignore the practice.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
"And Poland provoked Germany."
1. You should speak about those horrible times "Reich", instead of "Germany". Not to cause unpleasantnesses to present Germans. They are today innocent as babies.
2. But before anybody began to provoke Reich, was the creation of the superpower, the remilitarization of Rhineland, entire absorbing of Austria entire absorbing of Czech and the big impudence in the face Gdańsk. Reich had the right to provoke every, nobody had the right to provoke Reich?
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Protectorate of Bohemia & Moravia: not Germany, but Slovak Declaration of Independence on March 11, 1939. Emil Hácha and Czech rump parliament consented. Rhineland liberation was not an aggression. And do you remember the Zaolzie aggressive occupation in 1938?
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
The Protectorate of Czech & Moravia was for Reich an equivalent of Manchukuo for Japan. At that time only Reich publicly declared pretension of own spread. The practice showed that not lied. Britain, France, Poland declare nothing of the kind. Rhineland? Difference is between liberation and a remilitarization. Gentility order, so that places next door to of borders be peaceful. Zaolzie? The microscopical part of Czech whose the captured proved the unpractical system of alliances.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Poland annexed Zaolzie in 1938. As for the Protectorate, it was not militarily conquered like Manchukuo! The Czech lands were joined by decree of Dr. Emil Hácha.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Was he in a position to refuse?
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax There is huge difference between an army which was large on paper (i.e French in 1939) and an army which had been preparing for war for several years (i.e German). And in August 1939 German army was prepared to act whereas French was not. Hitler seriously believed that war might start in 1938 when he made his claims against Czechoslovakia. That's why U-boots were deployed on patrols on British waters during Munich conference.
rrynek 1 year ago
@rrynek The French were not willing to fight, but the French Army was stronger than the German Army in August 1939. Poland first mobilized in March 1939. Not Germany. So much for the "Nazi aggression" myth. In 1938, Poland was as aggressive on Zaolzie (ultimatum to the Czechoslovak government), as it was against Lithuania in 1923 and early 1939. Of course Nazi Germany was not a pacifist saint either, but it was not the sole aggressor at all.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
The practice, the practice and once again the practice. The practice showed that Wehrmacht had been more powerful than all other armies. Till discomfited by general Winter. In 1938 only Reich had territorial claims. All evidenced this that the appetite of Reich had increased in due measure eatings. So, every had the right to announce the mobilization. Disgraceful? Knowing your double standards, would not be the disgraceful if hyphothical Wehrmacht mobilization was earlier.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Nazi aggression is a fact not a myth and it started well before September 1939. Rhineland, Austria, Sudetenland and then the rest of Czechoslovakia- every time Hitler risked war and France and Britain showed him they would do anything to avoid it. That convinced Hitler he would be able to invade Poland without any real action from French side, no matter how strong French army was. And Poland was just an obstacle on his way to Soviet Union.
rrynek 1 year ago
@rrynek Rhineland, Austria, Sudetenland, Protektorát néver were military "aggression". If so, then again it would also prove Polish "aggression". Poland annexed Zaolzie from the collapsing Czechoslovak state in September 1938 too! Remember? Zaolzie? And the Protektorát (Cechy & Moravy) was created by CSR president Emil Hácha himself. After Slovak declaration of independence ended the artificial 1st Czechoslovak Republic in March 1939. Memel was peaceful too in March 1939. Danzig could have been!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax You make it sound like president of independent country decided himself that his country should no longer be independent and should instead be part of Reich. You completely ignore the fact that it ended a period when Czechoslovak Republic was being bullied by Germans. I know that Hitler tried to gain as much as it was possible without firing a shot and tried to make it look legitimate.
rrynek 1 year ago
@rrynek The Slovak Declaration of Independence in March 1939 was not the result of 'German bullying' at all. You continue to falsify facts. As usual from Polish-brainwashed "re-educated" chauvinists. You just come up with your own suggestions, allegations and myths.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax These are not my suggestions or any myths and these are not just Polish ideas. The fact is that Munich conference began disintegration of Czechoslovakia and Slovak Declaration of Independence was a continuation. Hitler wouldn't have made any claims against Czechoslovakia if he had not built his army. He knew France and Britain would hesitate to start the war and that Czechoslovakia wouldn't be able to defend itself without help from west.
rrynek 1 year ago
@buildingeverything Germany did have more tanks than Poland alone, but combined with France, the Allied-Polish troops had far more tanks than Germany. The Polish Army was not thát primitive at all. The Polish Army organized huge parades in Zaolzie, which Poland annexed from Czechoslovakia in 1938, whereas Germany was granted the ethnic German Sudetenland.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax I never mentioned France and British though I did already know about that all together the Allies outmatched the Germans, but that's where Germans tactics come to play. Plus when I was talking about German's industry and mobilization I never said it was the best, or Germans's industry was batter then anyone else's, just if you compare Germans 1938 and Germany 1939, and Germany 1939 and Poland. Also the Poles never really provoked Germany, German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact anyone?
buildingeverything 1 year ago
But yes you're right the poles couldnt claim Lithuanian lands and Poles made a realy shamefull act by attacking lithuania in 1920 by doin so we've betrayed our beloved brother nation. Im very confused with polish history in mean of polish-lithuanian relations and Joseph Pilsudzkis plans for ''Reuniting'' with Lithuania and Recreating the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Why Poles attacked them took away their capital? that question confuses me very much
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 And if Poland wasnt a unified nation before 1336 had they could gather up the army and stand for fight against Kievan Rus, Czechs, Bohemians and Germans ??? Battles fought against those countries werent small fights for minor lands, these full scale wars waged as Polish Wars. Not wars of tribes. About year 1000 poles conquered whole Slovakia and half of Czech lands. To do so poles need a vast strong nation with king, not just few tribes without fromidable command
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Kievan Rus' was a federation of quite tribal monarchical regions too. The Bohemians (Czechs) and Germans did support e.g. Wladyslaw the Exiled. Of course in central Poland, the dukes had authority. But the Polish dukes had no authority or definitive hierarchy whatsoever in Pomerania. Not even in Pomerelia (later Royal or West Prussia), which however by 1220 AD came under Polish influence more and more.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Agreed. Pomerenia had been completely germanized in during german rule. But the Germans shouldnt think that Gdansk(Danzig)vis a german city because it was established by Poles and populated by them. It was captured I think in 13th and it changed in hands many many times but in most of Gdansk history it was polish. In mean time during german rule almost all polish citizents of Gdansk were moved to countryside or neighbouring cities
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 I speak about Pomerania proper, not Pomerelia.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
As the eastern border of the historic region Pomerania, accounts itself the outlet of Vistula. Because was such the range of the tribe of Pomeranians. The name of this tribe was used to calling of the region. After the loss by mediaeval Poland of the west of Pomerania, geographers divided on the part eastern and western. A custom is to acknowledge the border between two parts of Pomerania there, where the border of Royal Prussia. Criteria of Prussian brigands are not my problem.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
As the eastern border of the historic region Pomerania, accounts itself the outlet of Vistula. Because was such the range of the tribe of Pomeranians. The name of this tribe was used to calling of the region. After the loss by mediaeval Poland of the west of Pomerania, geographers divided on the part eastern and western. A custom is to acknowledge the border between two parts of Pomerania there, where the border of Royal Prussia. Criteria of Prussian brigands are not my problem.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Pomerelia and Pomerania are two different things. Original Latin words.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Danzig was always a German town before and after it got town law. As early as 1197 AD, Danzig was designated as a German ethnic city. Of course the Slavic Samborid dynasty ruled, under allegiance to Poland. Danzig was always a Royal Polish city, but entirely ethnic German majority for its entire existence. From the 11th century until 1945-1946. Before that, it was a mixed Baltic-Prussian-Slavic-Viking-Scandinavian-Low-German fishermen settlement. See St. Adalbert.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
The absolute truth! And at least since 997 year Gdańsk was an always German city. Always outside borders of Reich. Short duration separations of Gdańsk from Poland always resulted disgraceful doings of externa aggressors. So, in this contestation those aggressors are disqualified. Several hundred thousands of townies do not rule several millions which live round.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Danzig was an ethnic German city since at least 1100 AD. This is true. Prior to that, it was a Baltic-Slavic village with Scandinavian and later Low German traders, like Vineta once was. Gothiscandza! As for Pomerelia: even in 1772, only 28 % of inhabitants were Slavic, of whom 23 % Kashubians, and 5 % Poles (Starogard Gdanski etc.). 72 % German speakers is a majority. Even in most rural districts. Görlitz is German too, not Sorbian due to villages west of it.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
I showed my the politeness, suggesting already 997 year. Because Germans were here a normal occurrence from immemorial time. In 997 year show into being the earliest archaeological source , that is to say the nearing name to "Gdańsk". Where was Gothiscandza? Perhaps Gdańsk is Gothiscandza, because theories speak about the end of Vistula. But Vistula has a delta and not always identical as today.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn I never stated Danzig was a Low German city in 997. It was a village rather, with mixed Scandinavian traders colonies, Low German settlers (from Kiel etc., who lived in Baltic Prussia already too and in some parts of Curonia). But the vast majority was of West Slavic-Baltic mixed ancestry. Before 800 AD, Pomerelia was still Baltic-speaking, Old Prussian land. The Kashubians have Gothic, Baltic and German substrates in language ánd their DNA!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax 997-1308 as part of the Kingdom of Poland
1308-1454 as part of the territory of the Teutonic Order
1454-1466 Thirteen Years' War
1466-1569 as part of the Kingdom of Poland
1569-1793 as part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth 1793-1805 as part of Prussia
1807-1814 as a free city 1815-1871 as part of Prussia 1871-1918 as part of Imperial Germany
1918-1939 as a free city
1939-1945 as part of Nazi Germany
1945–1989 as part of Polish People's Republic 1989–present: 3rd Polish Republic
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Were you trained such lists at school in the course of Polish chauvinist propaganda. From 997-1308, only Polish duchies existed. No unified state existed back then in Poland. I do not care about states, I just proved firmly that Danzig was ethnic German. Before the 1180s, there was no city in Danzig. And in 1226 AD, Danzig was already Danztice in its seal. There was no "anti-Polish expulsion" in 1308, the Teutonic Order killed German pro-Polish Danzigers. No Poles.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Were you trained such lists at school in the course of Polish chauvinist propaganda. No !! Put a side your german arogancy and look into wikipedia, free encyclopedia. I won't reapeat myself again !! In 1920 when Danzig was declared international city the 95% of population was german and rest were poles. It was taken away from poles again in 1793. What happend to Poles?? Did they simply dissapeared or vanished? Maybe you believe in fairy tales??
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax I might be wrong but according to what I've been told Poland was divided into duchies in 1138.
rrynek 1 year ago
@rrynek Yes, but even before 1138, the Polish state was not a unitary state. It included West Slavic tribes, Moravians (Czech ethnic tribe), Slovaks, Ruthenians and Baltic Prussians (Kulmer Land and Weichsel delta) too. It was unified as a primitive monarchy, but it was not an ethnic nation-state like in 1919.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
The source above I had taken from Wikipiedia, so not all the things which you've wrote down are right. Ethnic German city since 1197?? Very incorrect. It was in german hands since 1308 until 1466. During that time most of polish citizents were removed by force by germans to the countryside or other smaller cities and replaced by germna population. First citizents of gdansk were poles, not germans
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Ethnic German is not the same as being in the hands of the Teutonic Order. And the Teutonic Order held large other lands too, like the Kulmer Land which had a slight Slavic (Polish) majority even. And Polish knights were in the Teutonic Order too. I am speaking about Danzig as a city. The first clear proof is the Church of Saint Nicholas "for the Teutons". In 1466 or 1308, no Polish citizens existed. They were not "removed by force". O your Polish "education" is so bad.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax O your polish ''education'' is so bad. Excuse me?? Listen to me you prick everything I had taken from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Its an international history source. Not your german schoolbooks. If they werent removed by force by German Teutons so tell me what happened then? They went on cheap deal with germans and willingly ,moved to different place?? I dont think so. The oldest Snt Nicholas church was built late 12th century. Gdansk was polish then
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Wikipedia is biased and can be easily manipulated. By Polish chauvinists, Communists, liberals, Neo-Nazis, Israelis, Hamas members, Chinese government officials and the CIA. I am not a German, I am an historian, and I studied original Medieval sources myself on Danzig. I said already, that Danzig was under the Samborid dynasty and thus under Polish Crown's reign. But for its ethnic composition, the old city and the city proper were ethnic German.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax You are not german??? I dont think so. All the text on your profile is in german. Just because Germany is a powerfull nation, achieved incredible gains in science and military doesnt make you All Knowing Smart Asses. In your thinking Poles are completely manipulated by myths and propaganda, you should look at you. 60 years has passed since polish 1939 campaign and still you are keep repeating the bullshit and myths of polish campaign.
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 I am not a German. I have not even 1 % of German blood. I am 100 % non-German. I do not think Poles are "completely manipulated". But the majority of Poles are indoctrinated on the issue of recent history of Germany and Poland. And also on the Medieval duchies of Poland. Polish "education" thinks nationalism existed in the Middle Ages. It did not. Of course the historical truth is that Poland was an aggressor and caused WW2 over Danzig. Such a tragedy! But fact!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Well you are right in that majority of poles are indoctrinated on the issue of recent of germany and poland. If you would've ask 100 poles whos ideological enemy of poland, for sure 80 of them would answer The Germans. Many Poles think that if germans killed 6 millions of poles in wwII makes germany their worst enemy. Me personally I consider ideologicval enemy of poland are russians. Theres not even a single century in which we didnt fight them, with germans we had very few wars
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Personally I had forgiven germans in my own mind for what they had done to my country.Germans are just our normal neighbour. We had been even allied with them for couple of times in middle ages so I personally I dont hate germans. But above all. If Wikiepedia is aint reliable source, if gdansk is aint realy polish it is your own personall business, not the majority. And if Poland was an agressor in wwII, why germans attacked poles?? You dont need to answer that question, too obvious
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
"Poland was an aggressor and caused WW2 over Danzig."
Which the Polish division allegedly attacked on Reich? Polish authory over Gdańsk was PURE symbolical. FACTS. In Gdańsk was only 1 official language. You guess which language. I will prompt: Not istro-Romanian. Daily life it differed with nothing from the life before the First World War. These dodgers did not value this great mercy. In that times nobody, except Reich did not have territorial pretensions. This is FACT.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Over 36 border transgressions by the Polish Army since the Polish mobilization against Germany in March 1939. These lists are verified by both League of Nations' observers, by Swiss journalists and Swedish diplomats. Even Red Cross diplomats in Danzig stated it. Adolf Hitler did not want a "small war" at all, unlike this British historian repeating the "aggressive Hitlerism myth" with "I think". I want historical facts. In all Polish newspapers, new "western Polish annexations".
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax 36 Transgressions by polish military?? Bullshit.There had been many many anti-german attacks commited by poles in which few thousand of innocent germans died but never had been commited any military provokation, well on every border of almost every country there are exchanges of small arm fire between the sites so for sure it happend several times in poland. I can you are very very strong Nazie supporter, did your country didnt suffered enough in wwII ??
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 The 38 border violations by the Polish Army between June 1939 and August 31, 1939. "Bullshit".... ? Polish mobilization in March 1939? "Bullshit." Polish refusal to renew the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact in April, 1939. "Bullshit!" Once you have done some fair and document-based research on the lead-up to Sept 1, 1939, we can discuss again. I am nót a Nazi supporter. Just because I researched and because I openly preach historical truth? Yes, Holland suffered.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Like in Poland, in the Netherlands, the civilians came to suffer, due to compromising of our Dutch neutrality by our Dutch secret services in Nov., 1939. The Dutch people suffered, like the Polish people did due to Józef Beck and Rydz-Smigly and their military pro-British anti-German aggressions. I support historical truth. I do not support National-Socialism at all. I am a democrat, a Catholic, I am anti-racist, a European peace supporter. I am not even 0.5 % German.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Well you are supporter of Anarchists. Well Apppeasment invented by cowardous british and their leader Nevel Chemberlain is something you very adore. Anexation of Austria, Sudets, Czech and part of Lithiuania would'nt lead to war ??Every nation has right to fight for its lands. Hilters plans were form beginning to anhialate Russians and make Lebensraum come to existence. By givin all those comments supportive of Hiler you dont sound so peacefull
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Neville Chamberlain was forced into war, by the British war party under Churchill, Baruch and Anthony Eden. Chamberlain in a letter of Sept. 10, 1939 to his sister admitted, that Hitler had made great and large peace offers to England. On September 13, 1939, Hitler even offered to retreat and restore Poland, if the UK would accept peace with Germany.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 You Poles just do not know about these Nazi German diplomatic peace offers, even benefiting the Polish collapsing militaristic regime. Hitler was provoked, acted on Sept 1, 1939, but he realized that he had fallen into the British-French-Polish war conspiracy pit. The annexation of Austria was supported by a majority of Austrians (despite Austro-Fascist Heimwehr regime from 1931-38), likewise the Sudetenland.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax It is not about knowledge about German diplomatic peace offers because you are not the first person who speaks about them. The thing is that you cannot guarantee that after receiving what he wanted he wouldn't come later for more. And you cannot guarantee he wouldn't ignore pacts and agreements with Poland- those were just pieces of paper. You should also remember that Polish, French and British war preparations were not coordinated
rrynek 1 year ago
@rrynek The Polish military chiefs all coordinated their war preparations with the British admiralty and French politicians (Reynaud etc.) from May 1939. Rydz-Smigly was more in London than w Warszawie!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax The problem was that this coalition was still under construction at the time when Hitler was already prepared for war against Poland. Hitler wasn't concerned that France and Britain would attack from west, otherwise he would have left majority of his forces on the west- this would have prevented him from attacking Poland.
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax The only thing that really worked was that Poland sent 3 destroyers to Great Britain, and that simply meant handing them over to Royal Navy together with their crews. I guess Poland was meant receive something instead- either planes or tanks, but it never happened. Great Britain and France hesitated for very long before they declared war on Germany, the longer they waited the worse situation of Polish army was.
rrynek 1 year ago
@rrynek The Polish-French-British alliance was only intended to provoke war. It was intended that way by the war fraction in England (Churchill and Eden). You do not know about secret geopolitics. Already on Sept. 3, 1939, the UK and France declared war against Germany. By the time, Hitler had already offered peace numerous times to the UK and France. A peace conference. Hitler only wanted Danzig Plebiscite and a Polish Corridor (West Prussia, Pomorze Gdanskie) transit high way.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax In October 1939 Polish Army ceased to exist and Poland wasn't a threat to Germany any more. Hitler would've shown a good will if he had withdrawn his forces from Poland. He could have left an army in territories he believed should be integrated with Germany. This would prove he really wanted a only disputed territories and not entire Poland. But Ribbentrop-Molotov pact shows slightly different picture of what he wanted.
rrynek 1 year ago
@rrynek Hitler offered on Sept 2, Sept 3, Sept 8 and Sept 11, 1939 peace proposals: restoring Poland, recognizng the Polish western border entirely, a Danzig Plebiscite. The French military knew this and while the Reynaud-Daladier-Blum parties wanted war against Germany, the French people did no longer. "Pourquoi mourir pour Dantzig?" This French saying already proves what I stated. The peace offers by Hitler were all rejected. The war provocation had been succesful. Hitler was tricked.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Hitler knew that if he acted quickly he would defeat Poland without necessity of sending additional troops to fight on western front. Invasion in Poland was well planned and well executed- now compare it to chaotic French, British and Polish efforts in 1939. It was also visible in 1940 when Great Britain refused to send more soldiers and fighter squadrons to France because they didn't want weaken their own defence.
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Minor Fortification workss had started on western border, like Mlawa line, Pomerania site, Westterplatte, Polish-British-French co-operation started and poles were beggining to purchase foreign military equipment and takin the very very huge loans from France and also in future they planned to take alot bigger loan from US to take up drastic changes in their military. Full mobilization supposed to take in spring 1940. Not in march 1939
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
The diplomacy was a greatest weak point of Reich. In the true diplomacy one does not require the annexation of territories without the offering of something as the reciprocation. Dos not infringe the balance of power. Does not cause the horror of neighbours. No insolences. Before the provocation of Reich, provoked other. But this is not disgraceful? Nobody has the right freely to draught new borders, negligent for the opinion of neighbours.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Do you believe in national auto-determination? The Memelland population wanted to be incorporated into the Reich. Lithuania was chanceless in a plebiscite, so in March 1939 they ceded Memel. Poland should have done the same with the city of Danzig in April 1939. The protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia was caused in March 1939 by the sudden Slovak Declaration of Independence, ending the artificial Czechoslovak state. Dr. Hácha signed Czech lands into a Protektorát.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax And if poles had realy started full mobilization in march, in september Poles would've gathered up a lot bigger war arsenal, more modern and they would 've been ready for war. They werent in August
They would have a lot more planes like PZL 37, PZL 46 and possibly had ready fighter aircraft to face BF109's. A lot more anti-tank rifle and cannons and a lot more modern tanks like polish 7tp and 9tp which was possibly were the best tank in world along with Czech Skoda 38
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 The Rhineland, Austria, Sudetenland, Memel (Memelland) were very peaceful and even democratic. The German annexations did not please militaristic Polish regime and the British war party of Churchill, Bernard Baruch and Anthony Eden, but they were democratic. Any plebiscite would have supported them in Danzig, Memelland. Hitler never claimed the German-speaking Alsace/Elsass, because its Catholic population resented Prussia and was autonomist. But Danzig was German.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax PZL 37 Los was one of the best bomber designs in world then and it had very few fair counterparts . Great bomb load, great speed and manouvrability. You should imagine what it could done in september if it had been deployed in a lot bigger numbers. Polish September Campaign would 've had eneded in alot differetn way as it had. Poles couldnt defeat germans alone because they didnt take any huge moblization before August.
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 No, Poland alone could not defeat Germany's armed forces in a 1:1 fight. But the French-British-Polish two front scenario meant that the German army would have to split. Polish forces were far stronger than any 50 % of the German forces. Only Blitzkrieg Prussian military genius secured the Sept. 1939 victory of Germany. As well as the total fanatical but uncoordinated Polish military leadership, surprised by the September 17, 1939 Soviet invasion.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax I recommend that you compare a number of tanks on both sides and number of planes. Germany had 5 times more fighters than Poland, not to mention that they were of much better quality. Polish 7TP tanks were better than Panzer I or Panzer II but not better than Czech tanks which German used. Poland received only very small number of French tanks. Those were the main types of weapon used during the war and only Polish infantry had similar equipment to German counterparts.
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Your claim about Polish forces being far stronger than any 50% of German forces is completely false. Poland badly needed new equipment but neither France nor Great Britain could supply sufficient number of tanks or planes without weakening their own defence.
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Bliztcrieg failed and german hihg command droped away the blitzcrieg tactics and went back on traditional methods of fighting the enemy on 12th of september. Fighting around Bzura, Modlin, Lwów and many other locations showed that blitzcrieg wasnt working anymore after 13 days of fighting when Poles figured out how possibly knock out germans and resistance dramaticly stifined .
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Do you realize, that until September 16, 1939, the Poznan, Warsaw, Kraków and other newspapers all declared about German territories west of the Neisse and Oder to be ceased from the Reich? And that the Polish troops would be victorious after the British and French westward invasion? On Sept 3, 1939, huge crowds in Warsaw celebrated the British and French declarations of war against Germany and Slovakia. Germany on Sept. 1, 1939 just acted earlier. French were unwilling.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Yeah, and the same newspapers claimed in August 1939 there would be no war. I guess German forces in area of Warsaw on the 10th of September were far more convincing than some newspapers. And it seems that those papers couldn't be printed in Poznan area because local "Poznan" Army was withdrawn from this territory in early stages of invasion- since no-one attacked them they started moving towards Warsaw to support other Polish units.
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax On the 12th of September Poznan was already in German hands so on the 16th of September any newspaper claiming what you've mentioned would look a little odd. And I think it is nothing unusual about civilians celebrating after friendly nations "joined" fight against invaders.
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax It was only polish propaganda which supposed to rise the populations morale, nothin else. All ready after two weaks of fighting poles where beginig to know that there will be no help from western allies so any predictions about future germanys downfall in matter of few weeks was only morale boosting propaganda, nothing else. By the way you said germans won over the poles in classic Blitzcrieg, this is not realy true.
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Your toadying in the face Reich is more and more disgusting. Stupid newspapers dreamt themselves the conquest of Reich. Its worse than the meteorite which killed dinosaurs. More pettifogging. Reich did all, to terrify all neighbouring countries. The celebration of the pseudoallies prior to their embassies in Warsaw was a natural reflex on attacking us. That as if citizens had to do something inverse? This six-year-old nightmare would last very short, but for western cowards.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
Rhineland all time was Reich. Remilitarization literally levelling a gun of pistol into France. French government was too cowardly, to react necessary. "Austria, Sudetenland, Memel..." Europe isnt a island, but continent with many states. Change borders even with approval of local people cant be effected so-so as parking car. Always some influence on other. Instance, obtainment of grounds which were suitable to potential attack against neighbours of Reich. Balance of power is important.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Memelland, Sudetenland, Danzig, Austria were all democratically wanted annexations. Only Poland made a casus belli out of it.
In 1936, even Polish diplomats approved of Rhineland liberation from Entente occupation by Germany. And you still forget Zaolzie 1938 and the 1938 Polish ultimatum to Lithuania over Vilnius Region formalization. Poland was an aggressor. The Reich was not, although it was not pacifist.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Pacifist ??!! What kind of idiot might ever say that. Oh ye I know the guy whos on crack all day just like in Holland. Legal cannabis, I can see you're makin big use of it. The Reich wasnt an agressor?? I never ever heard such indiscriminate crap which creeped up i your old mind. You sound like a dame Neo-Nazie or Anarchist. They killed so many milions of innocent people. It was Reichs dream to conquer France and have their revenge over its old enemies, no so peacefull
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 The Reich was not pacifist, but PEACEFUL in its international diplomacy. Hitler wanted to evade a war with other anti-communist peoples like the Poles and the Englishmen. You fail to recognize this historical fact, because you deny the British-Polish-French war guilt in 1939. The 1941 Operation Barbarossa is another story of course, although even there, Hitler acted preemptively and not as an aggressor. But Nazism-Communism was an ideological war.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Poland, Great Britain and France could've acted earlier- they could have attacked Germany earlier to get rid of Hitler. If Poland had wanted any German territories it would have attacked in early 1930's, when German army was too weak, to defend the country. But Poland didn't do anything like this because it wouldn't be accepted and it would lead to political isolation.
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Poland didn't build a massive army in 1930's, it couldn't spend as much money as Germany or Soviet Union did, upgrading their military power. It seems like France and England deliberately allowed Hitler to ignore limitations imposed on Germany after World War I, because they thought it would provide military balance in Europe and they were aware that Stalin had already started upgrading Red Army.
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax I am not sure if Hitler really wanted to evade war- he could've said clearly he wanted to fight with Soviet Union only. But it wasn't just that- he wanted to expand German territory by adding land which was in control of other countries. And I don't think it was just Gdansk- remember that in 1939 Poland consisted mostly of territories of former Russian Empire, which where conquered by Germans during World War I.
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax The fact is that Hitler started the war against Soviet Union, he started hostilities so by default he was an aggressor. I am aware that Uncle Joe was preparing the same thing but Hitler gave Russians a propaganda gift so they claim now they were attacked and they did whatever was necessary to defend themselves. And they were surprised in 1941, judging by their defence efforts.
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax By saying he acted pre-emptively you may try to convince some people that his aggression was justified but he was an aggressor nonetheless. And Hitler's diplomacy, no matter how 'peaceful' it might seemed was always supported by his army. The biggest weapon in his arsenal was that France, Great Britain and Poland didn't really know how strong or how weak he was.
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Yes partially agreed. I know from my sources that in probably in 1933 or 1934 Hitler had offered an allience to Joseph Pilsudzki. Adolf Hitler knew predictions, personality and commanding skills of Joseph Pilsudzki and also that Poles although extremely inadequatly underquiped and in tragic situation in 1920 but yet they yet won over soviets. Such an allie like Poland would be very vital in future war with USSR but somehow Joseph with polish army refused and that confuses me a bit
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Reich was peaceful? The joke in the bad taste. If you work in the cabaret, necessarily change your job. Wieluń wasnt a Reich city which massacred by allied air force. This is FACT whose you dont acknowledge. The peaceful diplomacy doesnt require increasingly of territories, and also despises the fact that can this be unprofitable for many other countries. There pursuing your course of the reasoning, Reich would be able to completely without bloodshed to conquer the all continent.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
The reason of the war between USSR and Reich was not the ideology. But pure interestedness: Europe was too small for two all-powerful rotters. Only Stalin had then the potential to the destruction of Reich. Only Hitler had then the potential to the destruction USSR. It is all reasons of the east front. The ideology had an influence only in the Geobels's propaganda.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn No, 1941 was about ideology and a German Preventive War against offensive internationalist Marxism-Leninism under the Stalin regime and elsewhere. You know. You just do not admit because you are Germanophobe. God bless your ignorance with wisdom. I wish you a blessed Christmas! Szczęść Boże!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
I am forced to acknowledge that I am ill several phobias. I do not know medical names of this phobias. My phobias are against: the pseudodiplomacy, to the conceit, the fad, the leftists in every form, the infringement of the balance of power. So that the as if national socialism be less expansive than the ordinary communism? These two kinds of the leftists differ only with the opinion in the matter of the eugenics. Let God bless your double standards, so that they become equal.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Yes but also no. Goebbels propaganda had to do with Hitlers ideals, which had to do with German interests, so your last argument is negated. Also it was Hitlers principal idea to expand to the East way before he became the leader of Germany. This is described in his book "Lebensraum". Th Second World War was perhaps not a war of ideology, but the Germans-Russian war was. Look at "lebensraum" and see it for yourself. Id be happy to talk about this.
Logicman132 3 months ago
@IustitiaPax Oh, you've changed your mind. In one of you previous post you claimed Reich was not a sole aggressor, now you claim it wasn't an aggressor. It's just getting whiter and whiter...
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Still you do not understand one important matter: Has not on planet Earth regions which can be treated as independent planets. Every change definite belongings of the region has an influence on all countries in the radius many kilometres. Inhabitants of regions cannot despise this fact. They do not live on other planet. The incalculable arrogance. I have an absolute memory. Zaolzie was an equivalent of the new artificial "Sudetenland". Still double standards.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Hitler néver planned to "annihilate Russians". Hitler wanted to crush Communism ideologically at some future date, indeed. Lebensraum means new settlement space, but not the war with the USSR or "annihilation". Volga Germans of 18th century did not "exterminate Russians" either. I am personally very peaceful. I am not a pacifist, but I oppose historical propaganda and historical lies. I hate lies. Even if they lie about Hitler. I do not like internal Nazi dictatorship!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax How could he "crush Communism ideologically" without getting rid of communists who ruled Soviet Union? And the only way to do it was by getting rid of Red Army, because Stalin wouldn't just walk away. Your faith in Hitler's "peaceful" ways of solving problems is truly astonishing especially given the evidence of what really happened before and during II world war.
rrynek 1 year ago
@rrynek The ideological conflict between Nazism and Communism would have been fought in another sequence. Stalin prepared a war against Eastern, Central and even Western European countries from 1939, and wanted to launch it is August 1941. Read Viktor Suvorov and numerous other military historians. Even Martin van Creveld (Israeli historian) admits this.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax You've said in one of your comments about polish mobilization. You had said many bullshit but now you've realy crossed the line of idiotism. You're assumming that poles started full moblization of the army in march 1939. I dont know what had crreped up in your old mind but now you've showed pure idiotism and unlogistic thinking. Let me tell what Poles had managed to do between March till August. Poles had started partial preparements toward possible war with nazi germany
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
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@IustitiaPax You've said in one of your comments about polish mobilization. You had said many bullshit but now you've realy crossed the line of idiotism. You're assumming that poles started full moblization of the army in march 1939. I dont know what had crreped up in your old mind but now you've showed pure idiotism and unlogistic thinking. Let me tell what Poles had managed to do between March till August. Poles had started partial preparements toward possible war with nazi germany
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
The reason of the attack of Reich on USSR was very prose and pragmatic: Europe was too small for two very powerful beasts. Only Stalin had the potential to destroy Reich. Though not yet woken up. Only Hitler had the potential to destroy USSR. He miscarry, because was a loser, not a strategist.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
I spoke a hundred times and I repeat once again: The historical truth and the interpretation of the historical truth are different matters. Your interpretation is always disposed on one conclusion: All are guilty, except Reich. Even if I do not know how much insolent demands of Reich. Did you forget that first concentration camps had existed already in 1933? This nightmare would be able to end very quickly, if French and British military were not small kittens.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Over 36 transgressions? Who supplied documentary evidence it? If it is true, why was the incident in Gliwice? It would result that it would be superfluous. You attend the announcement of the mobilization as the provocation? Yes! This was the real provocation of Reich. But Reich used provocations earlier. The aggrandisement the territory, so the violation of the balance of power. Everybody else neighbourhood and Britain behaved as frightened kittens.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Only criterion to calling of Pomerania so as it is called, was the range of the tribe of Pomeranians. At the farthest east, Pomeranians lived at the outlet of Vistula. The loss of Szczecin Pomerania by Poland after Middle Ages, did not change the name of Gdańsk Pomerania. The name Royal Prussia and Gdańsk Pomerania was used simultaneously. There are no reasons, so that celebrate {by-pass} me the administrative division of the Kingdom of Prussia.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Royal Prussia comes from the Teutonic Order State, the Monastic State of Prussia, to which it belonged from 1308 until 1466. You can use Pomerelia, Danzig Pomerania, West Prussia and Royal Prussia or Polish Prussia. No problem. Historians use them altogether.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Firstly: You won. Teutonic Knights were a mediaeval equivalent of Red Cross, so in the same way internationalist. Not important how sounded their entire name. Because I used their shortened name. Secondly: Always, when Poland Gdańsk, this was the effect of the disgraceful aggression from outside. It never was a present from Polish hands. Thirdly: from the mathematical point of view, the membership of Gdańsk to Poland is longissimus axled of the time.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn In 1795 AD, the Danzig city council itself voted to join the kingdom of Prussia democratically. From 1772 AD already surrounding West Prussia had been joined to the Prussian kingdom. I agree that Danzig is an ethnic German majority city with the closest ties to the Crown of Poland. Closer than to the relatively young kingdom of Prussia. But Poland in 1919 and 1939 and 1945 was an ethnic nation-state! It was no successor to the Kingdom of the Poland.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
"In 1795 AD, the Danzig city council itself voted to join the kingdom of Prussia democratically."
Town council an administratively highest instance? By what right one-sided annulled all contracts of 1466? This illegal decision. Not counting political system, the II Republic had all guilds of the I Republic. The Weimar republic was a successor of the Prussia which wronged very much the I Republic. So, is immoral, so that the Weimar Republic keep anything from among booties.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Nationalism did not exist in 1308 or 1466. Sorry. The Teutonic Order was not the nationalistic force the Polish 19th century historians made out of it. Your Polish historical education is just full of crap and propaganda. Danzig was an ethnic German town even before 1197 logically. Of course, the Samborids and Pomerelia pledged allegiance to the Polish Crown. So did entirely German-speaking Danzig in e.g. 1699. That does not make Danzigers ethnic Polish!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Danzig was an ethnic German town even before 1197 logically. For sure you'll pretend you are deaf so I repeat you check the Wikipedia, free encyclopedia not german schoolbooks. The man who established the city was Mieszko I the first king of poland. The first inhabitants of Gdansk area were the Goths from Skandinavia which they replaced Oksywie Culture and in 7th century it was replaced by Pomeranians (Slavic tribe). You didnt prove that Gdansk is ethnicaly a german city.
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 I do not accept Wikipedia as a reliable source. Gdannycze as a village was a mixed Slavic-Baltic village, and Saint Adalbert baptized many Baltic Old Prussians in the Danzig area. Also, Scandinavians and Low Germans existed already in 997, although not yet forming the majority.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Original Medieval texts, not "German school books". If modern German books do anything, it is repeating the "Anti-Fascist" and Pan-Slavic Soviet-era myths on archeology. That is why Poles still believe that the Willenberg-Braunswalde Culture was "Slavic", although it was entirely East Germanic (not West Germanic like the Germans were). There are so many falsifications. I just say, that the city of Danzig was always ethnic German until 1946.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax I dont think I should continue this completely senseless conversation. You are a fuckin ignorant, arogant and lying fuck. Germans caused 20 milions of deaths in wwII and the fault will never shade away. Wikipedia, free encyclopedia is ain't reliable source for you??? Its controled by polish chauvinists, Communists, liberals, Israelis, Hamas members, Chinese government officials and the CIA, is thats how you think????? You sound like a Nazi.
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Wikipedia is useful in many cases, like in discussing Julius Caesar etc. But on modern 19th century and 20th century history and even religious and morality issues, wikipedia is manipulated, biased and full of propaganda. If you fail to see this, this does not favour my intellectual impression of you. I also stated that Neo-Nazis can manipulate articles (although they are fewer and less powerful than wikipedia Communists). Just be more critical. I like Polish history mostly
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Mieszko was not a king, his son Boleslaw was.
rrynek 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Your arguments summing up, one offers the one conclusion: In the hypothetical situation, but for was not partitionings, then Danzigers also would have the right to announce the secession without the indemnity. To the hell with all contracts, which up to here {hitherto} complied. Most important is their conceit. Teutonic Knights were an ovule of the Kingdom of Prussia. They were a modest ovule, whence was born the glutton. Kingdom of Prussia.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn In the late 18th century, the Lutheran and German national city of Danzig sympathized with Prussia. But in 1308 and 1466, Danzig as an ethnic German city never sympathized with the Teutonic Order. The Teutonic Order was not a nationalist project back then, but just a religious-political entity. With many Polish and Silesian Teutonic Knights as well. And ethnic Czechs. Königsberg was named after the Czech king of Bohemia....
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10
I implore You! Do not refer on Wikipedia! You compromise us all. In the true encyclopaedia, every text is verified by the large group of research workers before printing.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
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@AZsaturn Who to hell you talkin about ?? Who am I compromising ?? The thing that every text is verified by the large group of research workers before printing wikipedia the free encyclopaedia and for me its the most trustfull and most reliable source of all kind of information
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
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Ignore the nazi liar on YT called lustitia pax .
We must stop his nazi propaganda on YT !!!
MrKresowiak 1 year ago
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jpmccue7 1 year ago
lustitiapax keeps spreading the nazi lies. Please be careful ! Its the nazi propaganda.
MrKresowiak 1 year ago
The Polish State and its top politicians all wanted to annex eastern Germany and crush Germany in 1939. Poland did not want peace in 1939, despite Hitler's offers. This British historian speaks mostly truth, but it is speculative nonsense to claim that Hitler WANTED war against Poland. He did not, until at least Aug 28, and even in Sept 3 he wanted peace and on Sept 14, 1939, he again offered peace and restoration of Poland. The true causes of the 1939 invasion are neglected. British guilt!
IustitiaPax 1 year ago 2
@IustitiaPax
Slander. Aliance of Britain, France and Poland was pure defensive.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Maybe its true what you are sayin but theres even one more intresting information. Hitler in probably in 1934 offfered Joseph Pilsudzki a treaty Polish-German alience to attack and destroy USSR but suprisingly he refused, it's very weard for me because poles at the time then they considered the USSR a mortal enemy and greatest threat to their independance
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Józef Pilsudski refused, because the Entente pressured him out of a 1934 full Polish-German alliance. The USSR was created by Wallstreet bankers and kept on its feet by them. Of course Polish anti-German hatred also played a huge part in Marsz. Pilsudski's decision.... Communism was a danger. Millions would die due to it after 1934.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Yea probably milions of Poles would've end up the same way as the Ukrainians in 1932/33 famine when close to 10 milion starved to death. But anti-german hatred in Poland wasn't just as intense as hatred toward Bolsheviks and Rusians. In history of Poland there times when Polandd was allied to germany like in battle of Vienna 1683, battle Moscow 1612 and few more but we've never been allied with Russian
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 I agree. Still, I think anti-Russian hatred is wrong too. Hatred of ideological Communism is fine, but never hate peoples. The Bolsheviks were not all Russians, and not all Russians were Bolsheviks, on the contrary. I fear, that the Polish-Ukrainian War (1918-1919) and the Polish conflicts with some White anti-communist Russian units weakened anti-Bolshevik resistance inside the Russian Empire too. Yes, I know Poland saved Europe twice.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
, I know Poland saved Europe twice. " Indeed. Poles saved Europe twice:
First time: Tadeusz Rozwadowski. Second time: Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski. They destroy Wehrmacht before created. They were the first hackers in history.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn Kukliński was a hero of course, but I think that WW3 would have not been fought over Poland anyhow. Jordan-Rozwadowski was a hero too mostly. The ENIGMA crack-down was important, but not per se militarily essential. Military power is.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
Kuklinski was a spy so outstanding that it was outside the list of suspects. Czeslaw Kiszczak said that the KGB or other counter-intelligence believed that the spy was the Jaruzelski.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
But I forgot about one Pole. He saved the whole world: Ryszard Kuklinski. He prevented the Third World War. He never returned to Homeland, because even today rule by communism. Only less explicitly. It will take 100 years before he will be admired as it should be. His monument must be in each city, which has more than two residents. Pole who saved all mankind.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax One of the main reasons of Whites failure in civil war their aroagance toward Poland and Finland, Poland and Finland made an offer to Tsarists Rusia to assist in ffightin against the Reds but demand of Poland was to regain its border from 1772. Tsar Micholai found it imposiblle because after it Poland would've reborn itself as strong neighbour and Tasr didnt wanted that.
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Why should Poland in 1919 demand Smolensk and Minsk Litewski as "Polish territory" to the anti-Bolshevik White movement? This was Polish arrogance in fact. Anti-Communism is more important than Polish ethnic Belarussian and ethnic Russian 18th century kresy wschodnie. Not? Poland made a mistake. Finland was too weak and abused.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax - I think, when we look at 1919 we should see the perpective of people in those times. Poland was becoming independent after the partitions and a natural thought was to bring back the state before the partitions. Czar and czarists were remembered as great oppressors (in fact White movent did not recognize the independence of Poland). Russian revolution was seen as something maybe excentric, but not long-lasting. From todays perspective we say it was wrong, but not then.
OlenkaWagner 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax You realy didnt see polish map from 1772, Poles at time then didnt posesed the Smolensk. I dont think poles could even help whites as they realy didnt cared who was who, russian is russian. We never got along with russians in positive ways. We've always fought ruskies in every century of our existence so we would never put our trust into russian promises. Our nation wa occupied for 123 years, when poland was reborn they wanted their lands back and they had right to claim them
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Minsk Litewski was. But Minsk is not Lithuanian. You confuse multi-ethnic monarchies with ethnic nation-states. In 1919, there were no Polish kings or monarchs from Lithuania. Not at all. The ethnic nation-state of Poland could not claim territories not ethnic Polish. And please notice, that West Prussia in 1910 was 67 % German-speaking, and Silesia was 76 % German-speaking, and 24 % Slavic-speaking, but almost entirely pro-German. Poland was an aggressive state for decades
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax For almost 500 or 600 years the river Dniepr was a natural boundary between Ukraine and Poland. In that time Galicia had towns populated with almost poles only and countryside was by ukrainians. Just like Lwów is infact a polish city, always was and it should be because it was established and populated by poles, it was taken away from us in 1946. For example the Kalingrad. That city infact is a german city, Once it belonged to Poles and now Russians but its a german city anyway
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax East Prussia was always german so poles shouldnt poses those lands in my opinion. But I want to inform you Silesia at first was inhabited by poles for about 400 years and then it fell to the germans. Wroclaw or other Known as Breslau was established by the poles. Also the second dynasty of poland The Piast dynasty came from silesia
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Silesia from 1147 AD until 1945 was pledging allegiance to Germany, to German (Holy Roman) Emperors. Silesia was conquered by both Polish Piasts, Bohemian (Czech and German-speaking) kings in the 10th and 11th centuries alike. Silesia was never exclusively Polish before 1147 AD. Poland as a unified state never existed before ca. 1386 AD in fact. The Polish tribe lived in Wielkopolska, Malopolska and Masovia. Nowhere else. Slavic Silesians are not Poles originally.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax I can agree with you, I even watched a short documentary on polish TV that some of Hihg officials in Silesia(In German, Czech and Polish) parts were makin some future plans or ideas of creatin a new country. State of Silesia. You've said that Poland didnt existed as a unified. You are very wrong in this one. Poles or Lendyels(Thats how poles were called before 13th century) had their tribes very recognizible in some 7th cenuty AD and in 966 it formed a formidable nation
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Of course Poland was a nation and a collection of Slavic tribes in present central Poland and w Malopolsce in the 11th century, but Poland was not a unified state or kingdom at that time. It was a loosely organized duchy. Already in 1147 AD Silesia and in 1163 AD Pomerania seceded finally from suzerainty to the Polish dukes. Poland did not have the central authority of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
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@IustitiaPax Well Poland was an obiedent nation to the Watikan and Catholic Church but to Germanic Catholic League they werent. As nation german Teutonic Knights were very very agressive oponnet Poland and Lithuania. They seized many polish cities like Gdansk(Danzig) and made many raids into polish kingdom. They gathered up knights from all over europe etc; germans, english, french, spanish and many other kingst from orders united with Teutonic Order to fights poles in tanneberg, total defeat
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Yes the Poland became a very fragile and partitioned nation in 13th century, but it wasnt case with poland only. All eastern europe became partitioned
PolishWingedHussar10 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax
" Poland was an aggressive state for decades".
During decades, the Kingdom of Prussia and Second Reich was a state of hippies. Your double standards are already proverbial.
If the definite state changed own political system, then does not stop to be himself. The political system of the Second Polish Republic was unlike to the political system of the First Republic. But all remaining guilds are identical. The ignorement of this fact is a scholasticism.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@AZsaturn
" Poland was an aggressive state for decades".
The slander. Between the humiliation of the Red Army in 1920 and the attack of Reich in 1939, Poland did not sit in on wars. The alliance of Britain, Frances and Poland would be inexcusable only hypothetical non existed the threat of the superpower Reich with pretension of the enlargement of its own influence. The practice showed that the threat had been real, but this alliance existed only paper.
AZsaturn 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 And do not forget the Battle of Wahlstatt (1945-2010 Legnickie Pole, 1945-47 Dobre Pole) near Liegnitz (Legnica) in Lower Silesia, where the Teutonic Order, Polish knights, Bohemian knights, German soldiers together fought against the Mongol onslaught from the east. In fact, Poland as a Polanie unity was founded by the German Holy Roman Emperor Otto III in Gniezno, where he crowned Boleslaw I in 1000 AD.
IustitiaPax 1 year ago
@PolishWingedHussar10 Sad, the Poland did not fought along Germany against reds, choose the wrong side and caused Russia to win the war at the end. WW II was the end of game for Europe, like a civil war, so the muslims could colonize Europe and they will be majority sooner than later.
xipe02 1 year ago
@IustitiaPax Poland had a nonaggression pact with Germany in 1939 yawn lol. I don't see why Hitler hated it so much. He hated Slavs long before any of that.
GaullistFan 1 year ago