Lie #98 You Must Forgive And Forget

[RobertMOdell]

1 John 2:1-2 "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

Christ Himself bodily is the propitiation for both the saved and the unsaved. That is what he achieved on the cross, making Himself a worthy lamb to pay for all of man's sins, both saved and unsaved.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Ah yes, Romans 10:

you must believe the gospel (the knowledge of the righteousness of God)

you must put your trust in Jesus.

you must declare Jesus with your mouth

you must believe God resurrected Jesus

you must call on Jesus for deliverance.

A different list from mine, but as I said mine was only a partial list. The shortest summary would be this:

YOU MUST OBEY THE GOSPEL TO BE SAVED.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Of course I have not given scripture yet, I only introduced some of the concepts that scripture teaches as a starting point.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns God cannot reconcile the relationship without a willing partner. You must be WILLING.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns I can support ALL of this with scripture.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Judas was disobedient and he lost his salvation. Peter was disobedient but repented and was restored by Jesus as recorded in John.

[RobertMOdell]

You can forgive those who persecute you, but that does not reconcile the relationshp between you.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Here is a VERY partial list:

You must: believe in God, believe that Jesus is the Son of God, shed His blood and was raised from the dead, acknowledge the need and seek forgiveness of your sins, you must be willing to obey Jesus, put your trust in Jesus, specifically obey Jesus in baptism, continue to walk in the spirit, endure to the end.

[RobertMOdell]

@RobertMOdell If Jesus finds you worthy by reason that you are obeying the gospel, he will continue to save you. He will justify you, sanctify you, wash you, resurrect you, etc. Salvation is a process and includes eternal life and also deliverance from bondage to sin in this life. Justification is instant based on Christ's knowledge of whether you have a saving faith (one that is willing to obey Him) and is granted purely by grace according to what Christ has accomplished.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns It is possible with God to save a rich man's heart because God is in the business of changing hearts.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns I know all about Paul's teachings. I forget nothing, in this case.

What are Christ's conditions? You mean, you don't know of any?

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns One does not earn salvation by works of righteousness. Nor by your record of righteousness. You do not earn salvation at all. It is granted to you on the condition of grace by Christ according to whether or not He decides you are worthy of the gift.

[RobertMOdell]

Do you have to believe in God to be saved?

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns You are correct about what Calvanists teach. They even say that God choses who will have faith and who will not. That makes Him the author of disobedience, which He is not. I am pleased that you are not thinking along those lines.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Luke 18:22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns I agree. It is for the unworthy in the sense in which it is meant, meaning one's life record of sin, however it is granted only to the worthy in the sense of those meeting the requirements for the granting of that grace. Grace is not granted to everyone and you know I keep saying this.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Because Jesus didn't ask them to.  Had Jesus asked them to and they said in return "NO WAY" they would have have shown saving faith.

[RobertMOdell]

@RobertMOdell they would not have shown saving faith.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Because like a calvanist, you are saying that you only need to believe that Jesus is the Savior to be born again. That is way off base.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Why are you implying I'm saying the rich young ruler could save himself? Did I say that somewhere?

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns You must be worthy of salvation before Jesus will grant you the grace of salvation. The rich young ruler did not meet Jesus' requirements.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns well was he?

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Wow are you ever missing the point. Let me make it a little more direct then. When the rich young ruler walked away from Jesus because He was unwilling to sell his possessions, was he saved or unsaved at that point?

[RobertMOdell]

@RobertMOdell I'll answer for you then. The rich young ruler did NOT have saving faith at that point. Because to have saving faith, you must be WILLING to obey Jesus. Whether or not you DO, or whether or not you CAN, you must be WILLING. This, of course is only one of dozens of things you must do to be saved.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns I replied to your claims about 2 Cor 5 and Hebrews 8. And you just dropped it.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Where is your list? It is waiting for you to answer two of my questions since I answered two of yours I'm still waiting for you to take turns answering questions.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Just because I did not frame my questions around TULIP doesn't mean I don't understand reformed theology. I reject reformed theology (well, some of it), and we aren't even debating on reformed theology.  If you want to unwind the discussion, why do you keep branching off onto new ones? Or, do you really want to talk about reformed theology now for real???

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns And, of course, I'm still waiting for you to tell me whether or not the rich young ruler was born again or not.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns 1) You are being too vague. 2) We are talking about Calvanism now. I will admit that you do not teach limitted atonement. That is good. Christ's atonement is AVAILABLE to everyone, it is just not APPLIED to everyone.  I will tell you why I think you are like a calvanist after you prove it further on the points I asked.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Insults? So I am the one calling you brainwashed and stupid? No, I think you have it completely backwards.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Insults? Please quote.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Again, Act 10 and 13 are not verses. Again, I just answers two of your questions. Which 2 of mine did you answer?

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns If you expose Calvinist errors then I say good. However, you assume too much about who you are talking to. I wouldn't even know who these "teachers" you seem to know who "brainwashed" me would even be.

[RobertMOdell]

@RobertMOdell Let me give you a short test, Mr. un-calvanist... So, you don't adhere to the ideas of:

predestination of the saved and unsaved

once saved always saved

God being the author of evil

Limitted atonement (obviously not on this one)

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns You just listed 2 Corinth and Hebrews and I replied to them. NOW WHAT? More? How about you answer 2 of my questions before you pick 2 more?

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Sounds like we are just talking past each other. I'm not answering your questions and you aren't answering mine.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Your ideas overlap with Calvanism so closely it is frankly hard to tell the difference.

[RobertMOdell]

Hebrews 8:12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns When I read 2 Corinthians 5:19, I see this verse "that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."

[RobertMOdell]

@RobertMOdell Christ WAS (past tense) RECONCILING (in the process of reconciling, ie gathering saints) the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them (the saved), and has committed to us the word of reconciliation (the gospel, presumable to continue gathering saints).

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Nope. You are reading into Peter and Paul what is not there. watch?v=yrNAqTGCD9w and abandon your calvanism.

[RobertMOdell]

The Father knows all your sins, whether or not you are forgiven for them.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns You are taking this part of the discussion out of context. The context IS the things that Jesus taught that are required to be born again. You must believe ALL of the conditions which Christ gave for salvation, not just one of them. And it is no excuse for the few requirements He gave to find some verses where He mentions only one of them and say "SEEE! It's only one" You could just as easily have picked another as the only requirement for salvation and been just as wrong.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Peter was filled with the Holy Spirit at pentecost. He also repented for his rejection of Christ whereas Judas did not repent of his rejection of Christ. What you say I am teaching isn't what I am teaching at all. You are building in your presumptions about what I am teaching.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns How are you defining forgiveness? Are you saying that when Jesus asked the Father to forgive those who were crucifying Him, that God never hold any of these men accountable for those sins?

[RobertMOdell]

You are interpretting Acts incorrectly, that's all. To believe in Christ, you must believe All that He taught, not just a subset of what He taught.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Yeah, when I simply quote the scriptures I'm pretty sure it's what the Bible says.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Matthew 22:1-14 Many are called but few are chosen. Why are they not chosen? Because they are not worthy. Why are they not worthy? (Again, this is God talking) 1:3 - because they were not willing.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Since you are mis-quoting scriptures I have no choice but to make you quote them. Which, I will do from now on.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns 1 John 2:3-6 "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Acts 10 is a chapter and is Acts 13. Try again with which verse(s) you claim is supporting your views.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns I already know these verses and we are not even talking about justification. Justification is provided by Jesus Christ through grace via the propitiation (substitute) He provided with His own blood. What we are talking about it how it is obtained, not who is the giver or His authority to be the giver.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns You did not quote any verses. You just named whole chapters without identifying any of them. Tell me now about the Rich Young Ruler. Was he saved?

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Oh, now you are starting to identify specific verses. That is a good thing. And who is being addressed in Acts 3:26? Answer, those who were saved. He is not talking to sinners but to saints.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns I did not say people decided they were themselves unworthy. I said that God considered them unworthy. Why? Because as the Bible declares over and over again, they had an uncircumcized heart. You cannot be in open rebellion towards God and recieve His salvation.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Your eyes are blind, because you have been taught the lie of calvanism.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns You are waxing on and on about what the promise IS, but you are saying nothing about how it is obtained. I am focussing on the latter.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns And HOW do you believe IN Jesus? Does it mean you believe He existed? No, it doesn't. I means you believe in what He taught, all of it. And Jesus taught repentance from sin, just as John the Baptist did.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Was Judas saved? How about the Rich young ruler? Take these two for starters. Both had faith that Jesus was the Messiah who takes away the sins of the world. Judas even preached the Gospel along with the other disciples, healed, and performed miracles in Jesus name.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns You recieve salvation according to your worthiness. Yes, absolutely. That is what the scriptures teach. The theif on the cross absolutely was worthy of salvation. He confessed his sins in front of Christ and asked Him point blank for mercy.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns So, you are going to teach that everyone is saved. Incredible.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Paul and Peter were telling the truth, the very same truth that I am now telling you. Jesus preached the forgiveness of sins. That you must be willing to die to yourself, forsake your sins and put your trust in Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Everyone who believes in him, meaning they believe what He taught, NOT that they believe He exists. And to believe what Jesus taught, you must believe it ALL.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957Acts 10 and 13 do not teach that everyone's sins have been forgiven.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Because sinners sins are forgiven when they repent of their sins and put their trust in Jesus. What verse(s) of Acts 10 are you even referring to?

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns What was accomplished was Christ's work in providing a propitiation for the sins of the world. But it is not granted to everyone. EVERYONE is not saved. Only those worthy are saved. Many are called, but few are chosen.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns You are mistreating the scriptures. You do no take a testimony out of the Bible and conclude that the one with the fewest details provided is the cumulative teaching on an issue. That is what you are doing. Knowing who Jesus is (the Messiah, the Son of God, who takes away the sins of the world, etc) is powerless to save you. Judas knew. Satan knows. And so did the prodigal son. Not everyone who cries Lord, Lord but only those who do the will of the Father.

[RobertMOdell]

@RobertMOdell And what is the will of the Father? Hmmm? It is to repent of your sins, put your trust in Jesus, and dying to yourself daily by walking in the Spirit of Righteousness. Jesus does not take away the sins of someone who is firmly committed to continuing their rebellion against Him, no matter how much that person may know about who Jesus is and what He did.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns 1 John 2:2 describes Christ's death and suitable for propitiation which it is. 2 Cor 5:19 describes how Christ INITIATED reconciliation and entrusted the message of reconciliation to the Church, not that it was already accomplished. People must repent and trust in Jesus in order to be saved.

[RobertMOdell]

@ele12957returns Then you are teaching a false gospel. Without repentance, there is no forgiveness of sin. Jesus' prayer on the cross to forgive was so that God would not have cut them off on the spot for what they were doing. They will still be accountable for it on Judgement Day if they do not do what is required to be forgiven. Luke 13:3 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

[RobertMOdell]

Are there any examples in the Bible where God/Jesus forgave someone who did not repent and seek the forgiveness? No, there aren't. In fact, Jesus said that without repentance, there is no forgiveness.

[smiles0777]

How do you forgive someone who continually beat you as as child, until you were 22 years old? And someone who still hangs on to a hate for you, for no reason, no matter what and still will get up in your face, proud to beat you again if they felt like it. Say a father, brother and mother did this. Physical, emotional and mental abuse? If you can't rust your heart and the heart is evil, how do You know if You have ever really forgiven Them?

[blueskunk12]

@smiles0777

I'm struggling with this, too. I was abused physically, emotionally, and sexually throughout my childhood. None of the people who hurt me apologized or asked me to forgive them for the horrible things they've done.

I'm trying to let it all go, because the things they've done doesn't bother them one bit. Some of them are dead. The ones still alive don't remember (or still believe that it wasn't wrong). So the only one hurting when I hang on to this is ... me.

God bless you!

[fandera]

Our motivation to forgive is obedience isn't it? You state at about 1:47 that we forgive because we choose because of the life of Christ within us. So if I choose not to forgive does that mean I am not a believer? It's a huge question and I'm not trying to trap you here...I think your teaching that it's a "nature" or "choice" rather than an act of obedience, grace & love in keeping with what we have received from God. You may think it's semantics, but I think it's pretty important. Peace!

[fandera]

I agree - but you have stated a couple things that do not feel right. It is not our nature to forgive. We have 2 natures, don't we? Do you always do what you ought and never do what you ought not? Then to teach to forgive because it is part of our nature is disingenuous. We forgive because we are called to forgive, we are enabled to forgive because we have been forgiven. We do not "naturally" forgive as we have 2 natures, we forgive as an act of faith and response.

[Emilydogcat]

I agree....whether the offender wants forgiveness....what does that have to do with forgiving?......that means you still are under the control of the abuser.....you need him to want it before you can let go of your anger.......forgiveness is personal........nobody should tell you to forgive (I noted that people push others to forgive to quickly)....and the abuser should never TELL you to forgive them....and forgiving doesn't mean you have to continue having contact with an abuser.

[Emilydogcat]

Abusers use Forgiveness to continue being abusive....people who hurt me told me that I Had to forgive them....they didn't say sorry even...no remorse....just a demand, an entitlement.....You have to forgive me, God said so....so they use forgiveness as a "get out of jail free" card.....if anyone says similiar things to you....they are trying to con you.

[jmhein1]

Forgiveness is different from reconciliation. You can forgive what they did to you -- because they can never un-do it -- but that doesn't mean you give them the chance to do it again! Especially if they're not sorry. Forgiveness is about the past. Reconciliation is about the future. If the person isn't sorry, then that's pretty much a guarantee they'll commit the offense again if you give them the power to do so.

[woggleboggle]

1 Corinthians 13:5 NIV

"[Love] keeps no record of wrongs."

[SteveMcVey]

Okay....... ? I agree, but that has nothing to do with forgetting. Forgiveness is to set aside and not "keep a record" of the offense anymore. To forgive doesn't mean we have to get amnesia.

[Unknnnnn]

Err... If a person asks for forgiveness after cheating you, then you can have a deal with him/her again! Because he wants to be forgiven.

However if a person is... an atheist for example and doesn't want your forgiveness you don't trust them to have any kind of deal, however you do not hold grudge against them.

Forgiveness requires for an offender to want it. Otherwise he can't be forgiven. Forgiveness is an unconditional gift, but defined by choice. Definition is unchangable.

[SteveMcVey]

You're wrong. I've counseled people for 35 years. I've seen people forgive others who hurt them even after the offender had died. Being dead, they couldn't want the forgiveness, but the forgiver gave it anyway.