The entire practice is fluffy bunny / Crystal Crunching . Wicca is an entirely modern concept that was founded in the height of the romantic period of the occult in the 19th century.
It's crazy how many how-to guides you guys have. All I have are sagas, Archeology and lots of academic works written by people with their PhD to fall back on, No how-to books :(
Well as long as you don't do Christianity, all is well.
@MadGoat That depends on one's definition of FB, I suppose. Tell me, if you have such a disdain for entire religions, why go about seeking out videos about them and wasting your time with us "fluffies"? You must have more pressing things to do like practicing your own far superior path
Wicca 101 books are abundant, yes, because they can make a buck of newbies. Not all are good, but a religion can't be judged simply by the number of 101 books, the quality of them nor by the newness of it
@fleurdelacour5787 It's not so much a dislike for your religion, it's the fact that it's based on romanticism of the occult and the eclectic nature of wicca in general (pick and choose all the cool stuff from various sources.), is what I find slightly silly.
But yes the 101 books filled with fluff, which you rightly admit are to make a buck from the newbies is pretty bad. But I want to ask, how does one separate fluff from fact in wicca? Are there old text beyond the 19th C.?
@MadGoat It's not picking all the cool stuff. It's the stuff that appealed to the founder(s) and now the current practitioners that one "picks" (hopefully with proper respect to the original cultures if one is doing it properly).
One, in theory, studies from Gardner's and Valiente's works in addition to the source material of the cultures/spiritual paths that Wicca draws from. Studying other occult systems helps as does studying mythology and scholarly works. TBC
When wiccans focus on Germanic but also mix occult and other mythos into it, that's where it rubs me the wrong way, because that alone isn't respectful or proper. I'm sure Helenists would feel the same if you threw in some Greek gods with Norse gods with Osiris for fun. You can't mix and remain respectful.
I hope I'm not being too harsh? Until now, I've just never been able to have a serious talk to a wiccan that wasn't an "OMG, Sparkles!" teenager :P
@MadGoat Lol! I understand. That does rub a lot of people the wrong way. Personally, I see where they're coming from. That's why it's up to the practitioner to work extensively with the Gods & culture in question to know what's offensive and what isn't. I don't mix pantheons because I've never seen it work. I work solely with the Irish pantheon, and I've spent years getting to know my patrons and the culture to know which of the Wiccan practices don't fit. That's what always needs to happen.
@MadGoat Cont. There aren't Wiccan texts before the early 20th century because we can't be sure Wicca even existed before then. Therefore, we rely on those first texts and ancient lore, scholarly archeological works, etc. to provide us information, at least those that truly wish to follow a serious path within Wicca/Neo-Wicca/Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft do.
101 books are meant to explain the bare minimum, the basics to draw in newbies. It's up to them to take it to a deeper spiritual level.
@Romulaan My parents know that I'm Pagan. Even if they didn't, I'm an adult and not living under their roof and subject to their rules. Children are, and they should abide by their parents' rules until they move away out of respect. I would never encourage any other action.
@fleurdelacour5787 I agree to a certain extend. I do not believe that parents have the right to shield their children from their destined spiritual path, may it be Christianity or Paganism. It is until they harm themselves (blood rituals, Satanism) that parents should intervene. It's always easy for adults to state that children should have limited options, when they themselves were children once doing the exact opposite.
@Romulaan But some religions do view some spiritual paths as harmful, so that's a little hard to dictate.
I understand your opinion on adults' views, but it's a matter of respect here.
As for Satanism causing harm, I disagree that it in and of itself causes harm to anyone. Like every religion, it can if twisted by its practitioners, but it also depends which form of Satanism we're discussing.
Heyla! I had received a new set of books by Kaatryn MacMorgan-Douglas, and in two of them, she speaks on the idea of the "myth" of self-initiation. She divides initiation into two different types: the admittance of a person into a group, and the "revelation of a core mythos of a group to a person." The first she terms an initiation ritual or rite, and this can obviously only be done by a group, rather than by oneself. Groups of people who don't require an initiation to enter their group
@TheKeeper81 really shouldn't bother with "self-initiation," at all, as this makes no real sense. The latter type of initiation she terms "initiation to the mysteries." Again, one can not reveal to oneself the core mythos of a group. However, she does state that one can be initiated to the Mysteries by the Divine. This being said, this is NOT a self-initation. Moreover, the core mysteries the Divine reveals to one is likely not the same as the core mysteries of other groups.
@TheKeeper81 Having it stated in these terms actually helps me to really understand what you and others mean when you say one can't self-initiate. Even if one is initiated by the Divine, that is still not a self-initiation: one was initiated by the Divine, not oneself. As I find this to be a solid, logical argument, I accept this. As you said, this doesn't mean that one can't consider oneself Wiccan. Rather, one simply cannot consider oneself a part of a tradition that requires initiation.
I think maybe instead of saying that you can not do a self initiation, it may be better to say, you personally dont believe in self initiation, Not everyone believes that, so its not necessarily fair to say that! Anyway, the book references were great!
@ShyloeOcean I think that it's usually obvious when someone is putting their opinion out there, and since all my videos are based on my opinion, people have understood that. Thuri Calafia wasn't obligated to put "I believe you can self-initiate" in her book, so why weigh my videos down with prefacing everything I say with that. Not everyone believes in magic. Should I also put "I believe in magic, the power of oils, the God and Goddess, etc." before every video too?
First, I realized that your videos are wonderfully informative, focused, and organized, so I decided to watch all your Wiccan-related videos in order. But, as others have, here, I see, I find myself disagreeing with the idea that one can not self-initiate, if one is using the definition of initiate to mean "to introduce or be introduced to an art or subject." People introduce themselves to knowledge, all the time.
@TheKeeper81 Hence, one can initiate oneself to the general practice of Wicca. To experience the full effect of an initiatory experience, however. one needs to use a rituatl that doesn't allow for any preconceived notions to creep in, diluting the experience. But there are ways and techniques to achieve this, such as meditation, vision questing, etc. And these experiences, I think, are quite valid.
@TheKeeper81 This being said, can one initiate oneself into a specific tradition? I was thinking, no, at first, but if a Wiccan tradition teaches people how to self-initiate into that tradition, then I suppose the answer could then be yes. But there are specific traditions I know that do not allow for self-initiation, as they emphasize the other definition of initiate, which is "to admit or accept with formal rites into an organization or group, secret knowledge, adult society, etc."
@TheKeeper81 To further elaborate, from what a friend of mine on Facebook tells me, the problem is the fact that such traditions are oathbound. Without knowing the exact rituals and techniques the tradition uses, one can't really say one is initiated into that tradition, as one hasn't been made privy to the information that initiates of that tradition possess.
@TheKeeper81 Your friend has found only a small part of the problem with self-initiation. The def. you're using is quite limited because initiation always involves another person. Always. Think of every initiation you may have undergone and you'll see people. This is no different. This initiation is bringing someone else into a man-made religion. That's not to say people who self-dedicate aren't real practitioners. They just aren't Trad Wiccans.
@fleurdelacour5787 Oh, I completely understand the idea that Wiccans who self-dedicate aren't traditional Wiccans. Just as you felt that the definition I used is limited, I feel that the definition of initiation always involving other people to be limiting. But... My background is a little strange. I don't really recall any events in my life that I would call an initiation of some sort. Most of my teenage life was pretty isolated, so I had little involvement with people.
@TheKeeper81 And when I mean isolated, I mean isolated. From the ages of 13 to 17, I spent most of my time in my bedroom reading comics, fantasy, and science fiction novels. I literally only left our home in order to go to the book store to pick up more books. It's a long story. Suffice it to say that my mother decided she wanted to return home to the Philippines, and because of an incident in my first week of school, I was pulled out and home schooled.
@TheKeeper81 My adult life seemed just about as isolated as my teenage life, until I joined the speech and debate team and made friends. But, again, I still have a difficult time recalling any situations in which I would say I was initiated. So, this could very well be the reason for my own stumbling block, as I literally have no frame of reference. I'll have to research the subject, further.
I think the only entity that can really initiate someone is the Divine, but that's just my opinion. I believe in respecting someone's knowledge when they know more than you on a subject such as religion, but I don't think that necessarily puts them *above* you. Who are they to judge if you belong or not? It's not up to them, it's between you and your relationship with the Divine, nobody else.
@crazygrrl111 I understand what you're saying, but initiation is bringing someone into a religion made by man. So, only humans can really do that. The initiators aren't "above" you. This is a very prevalent idea, and I'm not sure where it came from, but it's not the case. That's like saying the guy who initiates people into a fraternity is "above" them. It doesn't make sense; they've just been there longer and could know a bit more. Dedication is more about devoting yourself to the Gods.
I love some of the reconmendations. I have a love hate relationship with Silver Raven Wolf. She does have some valuable advice and inforamtion, but I agree she encourages an imbalance by focusing only on light, fun cheery wicca. I love Sprial Dance and I'm thinking of picking up Drawing down the Moon. I'm ot new to wicca or paganism but love reading new books I know you addressed this above, but I think you can self initiate. If you have started your own tradition
If you are starting your own tradition or plan on staying a solatary, then there isn't a need to have someone initate you. If your planing on joining a coven, then yes that is true. You can't self initate. Some wiccans are initiated many times, either by themselves or by different covens. Thanks for the reconmendations, blessing to you
@starrychica82 I disagree. Only if you're starting your own tradition can you self-initiate. If you're planning on staying solitary for life, you don't need an initiation and would then self-dedicate. I discuss the definitions in my Ostara video a bit more, but by the definition of "initiation", you do need another person.
I would disagree about the nature of initiation... I think someone could self-initiate, or at least SELF dedicate themselves to Wicca. Who was the first initiate?
@Gavriel0 I didn't say you couldn't self-dedicate. You can. The nature of initiation, however, is the involvement of a second person (the initiator).
Initiation is to help begin the process toward achieving the mysteries of a sect of religious witchcraft (or any mystery tradition). So, there is a first initiate who is initiated by the creator of said tradition who doesn't need initiation since they have already accumulated all the mystery information of their sect.
You are by far the most helpful source here !!..you are clear and focused on what you are doing!!!..Thank you so much!!!..I am just starting my journey...getting to know the basics, and you my friend are the best help I have had as of yet!!!
Hey I was wondering what are the wiccan/pagan discussion sites that you go on? I really want to check them out because they sound very interesting and I have no real big wiccan-witch-or pagan community around me.
@DrAwkwardxxx@DrAwkwardxxx I usually go to Wiccan Together: You'll have to google it, but it should come up right away (YT doesn't let you post links apparently...?).
There are others, but that one is by far the best.
The entire practice is fluffy bunny / Crystal Crunching . Wicca is an entirely modern concept that was founded in the height of the romantic period of the occult in the 19th century.
It's crazy how many how-to guides you guys have. All I have are sagas, Archeology and lots of academic works written by people with their PhD to fall back on, No how-to books :(
Well as long as you don't do Christianity, all is well.
MadGoat 3 weeks ago
@MadGoat That depends on one's definition of FB, I suppose. Tell me, if you have such a disdain for entire religions, why go about seeking out videos about them and wasting your time with us "fluffies"? You must have more pressing things to do like practicing your own far superior path
Wicca 101 books are abundant, yes, because they can make a buck of newbies. Not all are good, but a religion can't be judged simply by the number of 101 books, the quality of them nor by the newness of it
fleurdelacour5787 3 weeks ago
@fleurdelacour5787 It's not so much a dislike for your religion, it's the fact that it's based on romanticism of the occult and the eclectic nature of wicca in general (pick and choose all the cool stuff from various sources.), is what I find slightly silly.
But yes the 101 books filled with fluff, which you rightly admit are to make a buck from the newbies is pretty bad. But I want to ask, how does one separate fluff from fact in wicca? Are there old text beyond the 19th C.?
MadGoat 3 weeks ago
@MadGoat It's not picking all the cool stuff. It's the stuff that appealed to the founder(s) and now the current practitioners that one "picks" (hopefully with proper respect to the original cultures if one is doing it properly).
One, in theory, studies from Gardner's and Valiente's works in addition to the source material of the cultures/spiritual paths that Wicca draws from. Studying other occult systems helps as does studying mythology and scholarly works. TBC
fleurdelacour5787 3 weeks ago
@fleurdelacour5787
When wiccans focus on Germanic but also mix occult and other mythos into it, that's where it rubs me the wrong way, because that alone isn't respectful or proper. I'm sure Helenists would feel the same if you threw in some Greek gods with Norse gods with Osiris for fun. You can't mix and remain respectful.
I hope I'm not being too harsh? Until now, I've just never been able to have a serious talk to a wiccan that wasn't an "OMG, Sparkles!" teenager :P
MadGoat 3 weeks ago
@MadGoat Lol! I understand. That does rub a lot of people the wrong way. Personally, I see where they're coming from. That's why it's up to the practitioner to work extensively with the Gods & culture in question to know what's offensive and what isn't. I don't mix pantheons because I've never seen it work. I work solely with the Irish pantheon, and I've spent years getting to know my patrons and the culture to know which of the Wiccan practices don't fit. That's what always needs to happen.
fleurdelacour5787 3 weeks ago
@MadGoat Cont. There aren't Wiccan texts before the early 20th century because we can't be sure Wicca even existed before then. Therefore, we rely on those first texts and ancient lore, scholarly archeological works, etc. to provide us information, at least those that truly wish to follow a serious path within Wicca/Neo-Wicca/Dedicatory Religious Witchcraft do.
101 books are meant to explain the bare minimum, the basics to draw in newbies. It's up to them to take it to a deeper spiritual level.
fleurdelacour5787 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Fucking epic Mortal Instruments series in the background!
RighteousSlaughter 3 months ago
Fucking epic Mortal Instruments series in the background!
RighteousSlaughter 3 months ago
I love your video. You give good book recomendations. I angry with what you talk about self initiation. I'm gonna subscribe. Kisses from Brazil. :*
darkvenuspersefone 5 months ago
You're lying to your parents...
Romulaan 5 months ago
@Romulaan My parents know that I'm Pagan. Even if they didn't, I'm an adult and not living under their roof and subject to their rules. Children are, and they should abide by their parents' rules until they move away out of respect. I would never encourage any other action.
fleurdelacour5787 5 months ago
@fleurdelacour5787 I agree to a certain extend. I do not believe that parents have the right to shield their children from their destined spiritual path, may it be Christianity or Paganism. It is until they harm themselves (blood rituals, Satanism) that parents should intervene. It's always easy for adults to state that children should have limited options, when they themselves were children once doing the exact opposite.
Romulaan 4 months ago
@Romulaan But some religions do view some spiritual paths as harmful, so that's a little hard to dictate.
I understand your opinion on adults' views, but it's a matter of respect here.
As for Satanism causing harm, I disagree that it in and of itself causes harm to anyone. Like every religion, it can if twisted by its practitioners, but it also depends which form of Satanism we're discussing.
fleurdelacour5787 4 months ago
Heyla! I had received a new set of books by Kaatryn MacMorgan-Douglas, and in two of them, she speaks on the idea of the "myth" of self-initiation. She divides initiation into two different types: the admittance of a person into a group, and the "revelation of a core mythos of a group to a person." The first she terms an initiation ritual or rite, and this can obviously only be done by a group, rather than by oneself. Groups of people who don't require an initiation to enter their group
TheKeeper81 10 months ago
@TheKeeper81 really shouldn't bother with "self-initiation," at all, as this makes no real sense. The latter type of initiation she terms "initiation to the mysteries." Again, one can not reveal to oneself the core mythos of a group. However, she does state that one can be initiated to the Mysteries by the Divine. This being said, this is NOT a self-initation. Moreover, the core mysteries the Divine reveals to one is likely not the same as the core mysteries of other groups.
TheKeeper81 10 months ago
@TheKeeper81 Having it stated in these terms actually helps me to really understand what you and others mean when you say one can't self-initiate. Even if one is initiated by the Divine, that is still not a self-initiation: one was initiated by the Divine, not oneself. As I find this to be a solid, logical argument, I accept this. As you said, this doesn't mean that one can't consider oneself Wiccan. Rather, one simply cannot consider oneself a part of a tradition that requires initiation.
TheKeeper81 10 months ago
I think maybe instead of saying that you can not do a self initiation, it may be better to say, you personally dont believe in self initiation, Not everyone believes that, so its not necessarily fair to say that! Anyway, the book references were great!
Blessed Be!
ShyloeOcean 11 months ago
@ShyloeOcean I think that it's usually obvious when someone is putting their opinion out there, and since all my videos are based on my opinion, people have understood that. Thuri Calafia wasn't obligated to put "I believe you can self-initiate" in her book, so why weigh my videos down with prefacing everything I say with that. Not everyone believes in magic. Should I also put "I believe in magic, the power of oils, the God and Goddess, etc." before every video too?
fleurdelacour5787 11 months ago
@fleurdelacour5787 True enough, I apologize I did not mean to offend you!
ShyloeOcean 11 months ago
@ShyloeOcean Oh, you didn't. I'm sorry if I came off short. That's a problem of mine with the limited character space on youtube.
fleurdelacour5787 11 months ago
First, I realized that your videos are wonderfully informative, focused, and organized, so I decided to watch all your Wiccan-related videos in order. But, as others have, here, I see, I find myself disagreeing with the idea that one can not self-initiate, if one is using the definition of initiate to mean "to introduce or be introduced to an art or subject." People introduce themselves to knowledge, all the time.
TheKeeper81 11 months ago
@TheKeeper81 Hence, one can initiate oneself to the general practice of Wicca. To experience the full effect of an initiatory experience, however. one needs to use a rituatl that doesn't allow for any preconceived notions to creep in, diluting the experience. But there are ways and techniques to achieve this, such as meditation, vision questing, etc. And these experiences, I think, are quite valid.
TheKeeper81 11 months ago
@TheKeeper81 This being said, can one initiate oneself into a specific tradition? I was thinking, no, at first, but if a Wiccan tradition teaches people how to self-initiate into that tradition, then I suppose the answer could then be yes. But there are specific traditions I know that do not allow for self-initiation, as they emphasize the other definition of initiate, which is "to admit or accept with formal rites into an organization or group, secret knowledge, adult society, etc."
TheKeeper81 11 months ago
@TheKeeper81 To further elaborate, from what a friend of mine on Facebook tells me, the problem is the fact that such traditions are oathbound. Without knowing the exact rituals and techniques the tradition uses, one can't really say one is initiated into that tradition, as one hasn't been made privy to the information that initiates of that tradition possess.
TheKeeper81 11 months ago
@TheKeeper81 Your friend has found only a small part of the problem with self-initiation. The def. you're using is quite limited because initiation always involves another person. Always. Think of every initiation you may have undergone and you'll see people. This is no different. This initiation is bringing someone else into a man-made religion. That's not to say people who self-dedicate aren't real practitioners. They just aren't Trad Wiccans.
fleurdelacour5787 11 months ago
@fleurdelacour5787 Oh, I completely understand the idea that Wiccans who self-dedicate aren't traditional Wiccans. Just as you felt that the definition I used is limited, I feel that the definition of initiation always involving other people to be limiting. But... My background is a little strange. I don't really recall any events in my life that I would call an initiation of some sort. Most of my teenage life was pretty isolated, so I had little involvement with people.
TheKeeper81 11 months ago
@TheKeeper81 And when I mean isolated, I mean isolated. From the ages of 13 to 17, I spent most of my time in my bedroom reading comics, fantasy, and science fiction novels. I literally only left our home in order to go to the book store to pick up more books. It's a long story. Suffice it to say that my mother decided she wanted to return home to the Philippines, and because of an incident in my first week of school, I was pulled out and home schooled.
TheKeeper81 11 months ago
@TheKeeper81 My adult life seemed just about as isolated as my teenage life, until I joined the speech and debate team and made friends. But, again, I still have a difficult time recalling any situations in which I would say I was initiated. So, this could very well be the reason for my own stumbling block, as I literally have no frame of reference. I'll have to research the subject, further.
TheKeeper81 11 months ago
I think the only entity that can really initiate someone is the Divine, but that's just my opinion. I believe in respecting someone's knowledge when they know more than you on a subject such as religion, but I don't think that necessarily puts them *above* you. Who are they to judge if you belong or not? It's not up to them, it's between you and your relationship with the Divine, nobody else.
crazygrrl111 1 year ago
@crazygrrl111 I understand what you're saying, but initiation is bringing someone into a religion made by man. So, only humans can really do that. The initiators aren't "above" you. This is a very prevalent idea, and I'm not sure where it came from, but it's not the case. That's like saying the guy who initiates people into a fraternity is "above" them. It doesn't make sense; they've just been there longer and could know a bit more. Dedication is more about devoting yourself to the Gods.
fleurdelacour5787 1 year ago
I love some of the reconmendations. I have a love hate relationship with Silver Raven Wolf. She does have some valuable advice and inforamtion, but I agree she encourages an imbalance by focusing only on light, fun cheery wicca. I love Sprial Dance and I'm thinking of picking up Drawing down the Moon. I'm ot new to wicca or paganism but love reading new books I know you addressed this above, but I think you can self initiate. If you have started your own tradition
starrychica82 1 year ago
@starrychica82 Sorry I was cut off.
If you are starting your own tradition or plan on staying a solatary, then there isn't a need to have someone initate you. If your planing on joining a coven, then yes that is true. You can't self initate. Some wiccans are initiated many times, either by themselves or by different covens. Thanks for the reconmendations, blessing to you
starrychica82 1 year ago
@starrychica82 I disagree. Only if you're starting your own tradition can you self-initiate. If you're planning on staying solitary for life, you don't need an initiation and would then self-dedicate. I discuss the definitions in my Ostara video a bit more, but by the definition of "initiation", you do need another person.
fleurdelacour5787 1 year ago
The light goes on and off and change colors. =D lol
SweetPagan 1 year ago
I would disagree about the nature of initiation... I think someone could self-initiate, or at least SELF dedicate themselves to Wicca. Who was the first initiate?
Gavriel0 1 year ago
@Gavriel0 I didn't say you couldn't self-dedicate. You can. The nature of initiation, however, is the involvement of a second person (the initiator).
Initiation is to help begin the process toward achieving the mysteries of a sect of religious witchcraft (or any mystery tradition). So, there is a first initiate who is initiated by the creator of said tradition who doesn't need initiation since they have already accumulated all the mystery information of their sect.
fleurdelacour5787 1 year ago
You are by far the most helpful source here !!..you are clear and focused on what you are doing!!!..Thank you so much!!!..I am just starting my journey...getting to know the basics, and you my friend are the best help I have had as of yet!!!
LOVE and LOVE
Jessee
LullabyLooming 1 year ago
Thank you. Clear and to the point. Informative. Keep em coming!
BabyJane1966 1 year ago
Hey I was wondering what are the wiccan/pagan discussion sites that you go on? I really want to check them out because they sound very interesting and I have no real big wiccan-witch-or pagan community around me.
DrAwkwardxxx 1 year ago
@DrAwkwardxxx @DrAwkwardxxx I usually go to Wiccan Together: You'll have to google it, but it should come up right away (YT doesn't let you post links apparently...?).
There are others, but that one is by far the best.
fleurdelacour5787 1 year ago
@fleurdelacour5787 Thanks very much! Blessed Be!
DrAwkwardxxx 1 year ago
I agree with this person about the books she recommends and the advice she gives. . . good job
LakeWitch1 1 year ago