Ambrosian chant - Alleluia. Hodie in Bethlehem puer natus est

[lbubla]

Indoors of which church are showed at 4:46 ? It's Eden right? Amazing...

[pj100003]

@lbubla Yes, it is... I'm pretty sure it's a representation of Christ, the Good Shepherd, and His sheep who He leads to paradise.

[Gunnarr123abc]

@pj100003 @lbubla, the representation is not of Christ, it is of Saint Apollinaris of Ravenna. You can see this by the words around the saint saying "+SANCTVS APOLENARIS". Just google his name you can see more about him and you can see a better picture of that mosaic in the apse as well. The church is the Basilica of Sant'Apollinare

[Parmafoi]

Respecting much Your discussion - which is why I first listen to the pieces on Youtube, read interesting comments and then buy the CD or not - I would gladly learn from both of You which performances of the oldest chants You think are the best. What do You think for example of the BYSANTION choir or Divna Ljubojevic? All I know of them comes from Youtube. Thank You very much

[Callixtinus]

@Parmafoi :

Sorry for the late reply, I just saw your comment.

About your question: I have posted a bit from Divna but I am not very familiar with her work. I think she tries in general to instill a more "modern" - in want of a better term - style to traditional chants. I don't know how her performances are received by more traditionalist audiences. Personally, I like her voice, so my advice will be: If you like her voice and style then you should buy her CDs, otherwise look for something else.

[rigera]

@Parmafoi Search for Pavle Aksentijevic(Pavle Aksentijević)



[kamasarye]

magnificent.

thank you so much!

[alprasetya]

Ohhh....wonderful !!

Do anyone here could tell me the difference between Latin Rite and Ambrosian Rite especially in Eucharist celebration? I saw that the language is the same as Latin...

[ToryAnarchist]

@Samurai: I don't think EO's objective is to "faithfully" reproduce the music they sing. But then, in this case, I do believe that Ambrosian chant might really have sounded this Eastern since St.Ambrose drank from Eastern waters.

[Samurai8989]

@ToryAnarchist

My comment was not directed at Calixtinus, per say. In fact, I'm a subscriber to his channel and I absolutely love everything he posts. All I was trying to convey was that EO has a habit of making the vast majority of their repertoire very eastern sounding. I find this video a particularly poignant example as Ambrosian Chant is still alive today within the Ambrosian Rite celebrated in Milan and it sounds nothing like this ... not even close.

[Callixtinus]

@Samurai8989 & TonyAnarchist : Just let me say this whole discussion is not on personal level, it's a discussion about music, its authenticity and evolution. Comments like those by Samurai8989 are always welcome and they offer a ground for nice conversations. Of course there are times the truth is manifold and not very tangible, but a good conversation never hurt anyone :)

[DavidofThe]

Wonderful stuff

[Samurai8989]

As nice as this is, Ensemble Organum insists on "Easternizing" all of its music to where what is produced is of doubtful authenticity.

[Callixtinus]

@Samurai8989 : That is inaccurate. If you listen to several recordings by Ensemble Organum you'll realize that they can perform in the usual gregorian style and they clearly do so in Codex Chantilly, the "Messe de Notre-Dame" by Machaut, Messe de la Nativite de Vierge (even when Angelopoulos introduces an eastern flavour there it's still a very gothic chant), chants of Aquitaine, Cistercian chant and others. Not all liturgical music has to "fit the box" of gregorian chant. (cont'ed)

[Samurai8989]

@Callixtinus

The only "box" I insist on is authenticity. Granted, I'm no musicologist, but again, what does one say when one hears this and then listens to Ambrosian Chant within an Ambrosian Rite Mass in Milan and finds that they are in no way related whatsoever? ... and yes, a few examples withstanding, E.O. *IS* known for imposing an Eastern flair in the vast majority of their repertoire.

[Callixtinus]

@Samurai8989 : (cont'ed)The music of the first millenium is not as we know music to be today. The scales where not tempered and, let's face facts, Christianity was born in the east and travelled westwards, why does it sound so absurd that it would carry along practices and traditions from the orient? Personally I believe Marcel Peres and his companions have done extensive work before performing anything and what they do is based on informed analysis of historical evidence.(cont'ed)

[Samurai8989]

@Callixtinus

That is all speculation. It's as likely to assert that regional liturgical chants are unique constructs arising from isolated cultures. What I am stating is that E.O. has put out renditions of certain liturgical pieces (particularly the Mozarabic and the Ambrosian) that are still being used in an *organic* manner to this day within the liturgical constructs they were composed for versus E.O.'s *archaeological* rendition .... and the two versions simply do not match.

[Callixtinus]

@Samurai8989 : I would not think so for two main reasons:

1) The ground of liturgical worship was already laid in an era when communication was easy within the confines of the Roman Empire up to the middle of the 5th Century AD.

2) Even when the western part of the Roman Empire was destroyed, the new tribes that descended on its area were influenced by what they saw as a superior civilization. And the one institution that remained intact and able to govern its affairs was the Church (cont'ed)

[Callixtinus]

@Samurai8989 : (cont'ed)

Is it not more likely that despite the local traditions and usages there would be common liturgical elements?

As to chants being different to how they are performed today:

1) Today's performances are governed by the rules of the modern rites and the evolution of music. I can show you that even byzantine chant changed in style from what it used to be despite the east's conservativity. Wouldn't these chants change after so many councils dictating uniformity? (cont'ed)

[Callixtinus]

@Samurai8989 : (cont'ed)

2) The pieces I have posted are not representative - they are those that I like best. I will post some more where the nature of the chant is quite evident.

3) My next post will be an Ambrosian Chant in Greek. It's an archival recording and not of too good quality but I'll post it just for the sake of this discussion. That chant dates back from the protobyzantine era and is a veryrare example of greek (eastern) Ambrosian chant. (cont'ed)

[Callixtinus]

@Samurai8989 : (cont'ed)

Anyway the space to discuss here is rather limited and does not allow for lengthy arguments. Let me say though I rather enjoy this discussion. It seems two persons can actually have a reasoned argument in YT xD.

[Samurai8989]

@Callixtinus

Indeed, sir. As I said before, I'm no musicologist and I'm sure my humble rantings can be easily debunked by someone in the know (as I'm sure you are). You're a class act, sir, and I very much enjoy both your input and videos.

[Absurus]

@Samurai8989 I agree with your opinion about Ensemble Organum, all their recordings sound good and fantastic pieces, but their versions of Western chants are different to original sounds.

E.O. to their repertoire gives it a Eastern/Byzantine influence to create a mysterious atmosphere.

[Callixtinus]

@Samurai8989 : (cont'ed) I will admit there are occasions EO have dared certain improvisations that I am not quite sure are historically accurate, but that's something I am willing to overlook, given their artful work and their very careful and respectful approach to liturgical music.

[nicubucurestiromania]

Great chant! Thanks.

IC XC NIKA