Lol, I'm not a christian but give me an honest conservative christian who at least has the guts proclaim their beliefs rather than than this pompous gasbag
John Shelby Spong has given me the words, the confidence, the clarity, to finally articulate what I have truly come to believe these past 4 years of questioning. I am at peace with my existence, I am overflowing with love and appreciation of the depth of humanity, and I accept the gift of logic and reason and rationality that my creator has given me. I can finally live a genuine, rich life. Thank you Bishop Spong.
he is pretty much an atheist using "good" christian values. This guy needs to make up his mind. he's a loser for not decided his beliefs yet. I have more respect for an atheist than this guy
I enjoyed learning from Bishop Spong that after we get rid of the Terrrible Texts of the Bible, the ones used along history to justify so much cruelty, injustice and oppression, we can focus on the texts that reflect the Love of God.He `s an eloquent, dynamic, informed and persuasive speaker.
Essentially, Spong has no evidence or solid basis for his beliefs in the panentheist form of God. It is merely one of many possibilities and nothing solid to stand on.
Spong is a paradox. He has lost his faith in the theistic God of the Bible and yet he sees value in the Christian experience and he remains a "Christian". He claims he is "God intoxicated" and "almost a mystic" and yet his panentheist beliefs amount to no more than mere hypothesis. Since he lays waste to the information about God claimed in the Bible, what is his basis for believing in a panentheist form of God? Essentially, his views about God are highly subjective and unfalsifiable.
The most irritating thing about Mr Spong is not his unbelief, but rather his dishonesty. Refusing to give up his clerical garb & his title, thus a wolf in shepherd's garb, pretending to be an overseer of Jesus' sheep while attempting to destroy the faith that binds a man to Jesus. Pretending to be a protector and liberator when in reality, he is only a thief and an arch-hypocrite who is ever quick to see hypocrisy in others.
@tumbleweeeeeed I couldn't agree more. Whenever I hear Spong speaking he always reminds me of the snakey charcter in the garden of Eden story, and conversely, when I read that very true story, I can always see the 'bishop''s face with the mouth opening and the darting tongue slithering out, 'Yea, hath God said?.....
you truly do not grasp what Spong is saying. you have neither the willingness, nor the capacity, to set aside your human systems of language and surface level reasoning to truly understand what Spong says about Jesus. that he is everything. he is what binds us to the faith. Jesus matters. because Spong comes from a different, much more intelligent, and careful mode of thinking than you, you call him a heretic. enjoy continuing in the human defined fundamentalist fallacy.
@jcpent12 - U speak of a deluded tribe who imagine they are free to "set aside human systems of language." Consider the irrationality of that assertion, given that no other medium of conceptual communication exists. Such gnostic gymnastics are as old as time, as men have sought to defend their idolatry, worshiping gods which are invented, not revealed. Thus, Spong has no more right than Richard Dawkins to the title, "Christian Bishop." He is indeed a wolf in purple vestments.
@tumbleweeeeeed I would much rather acknowledge the limited scope of my human understanding, than to subscribe to the belief that the god who created the intricacies of the human body (the unfathomably complex metabolic cycles, the unfathomably complex processes of development, etc) is the same god that sits in the clouds, demanding we forever stained humans use primitive, shallow modes of thought about our existence to appease him.
@tumbleweeeeeed and moreover, is it not ironic, that you ask me to consider the irrationality of the assertion that "some other mode of communication" exists, when for centuries we have bet the farm on god existing, with no real way but your own experience to tell you one way or the other. spong asks us to use our brains. I suggest you take a philosophy class or two, to truly understand what is meant by the pitfall of language. language must be used carefully. something most do not do.
@jcpent12 - It's not philosophy, but logic that's wanting here. My own axiom is the Bible, whereas yours is your own judgment, and while axioms are not, by their very nature provable, your own judgment is demonstrably faulty. Every argument you bring against the Bible is simply a matter of your opinion (to which you are fully entitled). My objection is to the idea that the idolatry of Spong has anything to do with historic Christianity. Lose the collar & go start your own religion.
@tumbleweeeeeed Your axiom, is based upon the Bible, which was formulated based upon the human judgment of men that lived thousands of years ago. All axioms are faulty, you just feel a certain security in your axiom, as it provides a lovely structure to all this, never mind the atrocities of "human judgment" sprinkled throughout. And Spong seeks to distance himself entirely from historic Christianity, that's the point of all this. And religion should matter not. That's where we've lost it
@tumbleweeeeeed as a modern society. The rules, the fear, the segregation, these are the things that have helped establish religions. The "tribal thinking" (so true!) of religion hampers us from truly living and existing with God everyday. It's a simple way of life, exist and love, and USE YOUR BRAIN. I guess that's the "religion" I should go off and start, huh.
@jcpent12 - Please forgive me if this sounds patronizing, but your thoughts (& certainly Spong's) are mere gut-reactions & not thinking at all in the formal sense. The question is not whether certain things sit well with you & me, but whether they are true. We cannot emote our way thru life. In logic, an Axiom is the necessary, but unprovable starting place for any deduction. Re. God, yours/Spong's is the infallibility of your opinion; mine IS the Bible because objectivity demands it
@tumbleweeeeeed All good points, thanks for the enlightening debate, and forgive me if I've come off as hostile! I seek to understand what it is happening here, where my religious traditions fit in, and where my torturous logic is reconciled in it as well. I do not ever hope to say that my opinions views are infallible, and I hope I haven't come off like that, and I will make sure I do not portray that from now on. This is, I think, precisely what fundamentalists refuse to do, with their views.
@jcpent12 - Thanks JC, but I'm guilty too! The anonymity of the net tempts us all to get a little cocky, especially when it comes to polemics. It really would be nice to have a bit more room so we'd be less likely to misunderstand one another, so if you'd like to continue this by email, write to me at dunringil AT hushmail DOTcom. BTW, I agree with you re. "fundamentalists", though sadly, the term is generally misunderstood & mis-applied in modern times
@jcpent12 - Isn't 500 characters frustrating? Let me add:
#1: U/Spong say "the Bible was formulated based upon the human judgment of men.", whereas the Bible itself says holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit (II Pe.1:21) Objectively, why should anyone believe U & not scripture's testimony?
#2: If Spong seeks to distance himself from historic Christianity, why does he clutch at the dress/title of it's authority? This cuckoo lays his eggs in other people's nests
@trobaugh87 - There is absolutely no evidence that Jesus was against Jewish dogma. He said in Matthew 5, "Until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." He quotes OT passages as though they are the literal word of God and literal events. To suggest that Jesus believed in God the same way as Spong does is merely wishful thinking. Do you have any proof to support such a claim?
As I said, "There is validity to some of Spong's criticisms about the Bible and Christian practice throughout history". My critique of Spong is that if he is against the Bible why on earth does he wear a collar as a representative of the Christian Church? Why does he remain a bishop? He should get out of the church altogether and start some sort of new movement.
trobaugh87, There is validity to some of Spong's criticisms about the Bible and Christian practice throughout history. However, in stripping Christianity of its holy text, Spong is left with nothing to stand on except his own imaginings about God. He is, in effect, inventing his own version of God.
@wlemusic The bible itself is a human invention of God. God didn't write it! It's our trying to understand God and he is pointing out the problems, flaws, and misunderstandings of God and Jesus.
Respond to this video... Christianity isn't what Jesus taught. It's intertwined with Jewish dogmas and Jesus himself was against these dogsmas and that's why he was killed. It's ironic and frustrating that he is still intertwined in all of the old testament bs, but I'm happy that the story of Jesus has lived on this long no matter how distorted or ignored his message has been, I'm greatful it's been available for me to find.
Spong's theology is based on nothing except his own imaginings, as he has simultaneously betrayed reason and the Christian Scriptures. If he rejects the tenets of Christian theology I would prefer he not call himself a Christian and start some sort of new religion altogether.
@trobaugh87 A nobody saved by the Grace of God, who was blinded by the God of this world, and as much of a scoffer as you. Muhammad was visited an angel, and had visions revealed to him of the 'truth', and that it was of God, when actually, the 'truth' revealed to him by this angel is an amalgam of Allah the pagan moon god, co-opted into a quasi-Abramic covenant, which is how you get modern-day Islam. If 'an angel from heaven preach any other gospel... let him be accursed.' (Galatians 1:8-9)
@MrOzanachronism The funny thing is that Islam in essence doesn't contradict christianity. Stop spreading lies and hatred. Galatians was written before the qoran you moron!
Respond to this video... Galatians was also written by man once again so your argument is not valid. allah simply means god. calling it a pagan moon god is your distortion of what it is. you're a small minded, pathetic, sad person.
@trobaugh87 It is only invalid if I accept your presumption that it was 'written by man'. 'All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:' 2 Timothy 3:16 The divine inspiration of the God's word can and has been proven - ever heard of Ivan Panin?
I have presented facts about Allah, only to be met with subjective name-calling, and reflexive charges of 'distortion' - not very broad minded.
No different then what the teachers of the Law felt about Jesus. Even if they don't agree, it is difficult to ignore Spong. He is a very inviting speaker who draws the listener in.
@Wilfredo6914 Inviting he may be, because the devil himself is transformed into an angel of light for a season to get people in the door.
'For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostle of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
@MrOzanachronism "deceitful worker"... like yourself? Deceitful: Given to cheating or deceiving.
; Deliberately misleading; deceptive. See dishonest! Cheating: being omnipotent and yet imposing herital sin onto man, all the while pretending free will could co-exist with an omnipotent being. Turn your evangelical BS around and fuck off! Blessed are the simple minded indeed!
all this god jive is boring. I don't find anything interesting about god; I find god boring. besides god isn't real ; god is just an allegorical concept. I find the god concept boring.
when I hear Jesus is love, god is love it doesn't faze me at all
god is just a made up term for something we don't know & understand. we are all going to die someday & that's the bottom line the god concept was invented for this reason no body wants to die & be no more! it's all BS.
@xspettacolare I once had similar views. Fear of death is real, however my religious views are no longer based on fear, it is more about the search for genuine truth in community. There is a "force" out there that binds us. Maybe you will make the connection someday?
@xspettacolare rather sad that you don't value the nuance, the open mind and the new insights on theism. As an agnost and former atheist i appreciate this vid especially because it refutes all god-nuts acting on gods behalf. In this vid dogma is abandonned, a necessary evolution towards reason. It reduces religion to what it really is; a culturally induced mechanism. In my view it is an appeal to respect for cultural heritage and reason. Religion stripped down of power-mechanisms, so respect
The bishop should direct a movie of a biblical re-enactment of some kind..
Highlighting that people were re-writing scripture and using it to justify hatred, and there were few that actually followed Jesus and God's actual word.
Like "The Real Passion Of The Christ".
Or a new bible that doesn't just rephrase verses that involve murder and such, it only has positives in it. (not to replace the old bible obviously, there still needs to be a reference of the original text displaying false editing)
@IALON so why would that be ironic? it just proves that people can be open to any idea. I am not deist but i could live with religion if it took this form. I am, however, happy that you can appreciate this vid too, and hope that it provides the same insight as it did for me.
@godsadouchebag its ironic cuz your username says god is a douchebag but you are sharing a video that is pro-god, do you see the irony? Have a good day
@IALON what spong is saying: god might have been present in the begining ,but now he may be gone; a deist approach, hence the name; if god exists,he is messing up or he is absent. Spong completely rejects the active judgemental god. My username does not exclude the existence of god, it is about the nature of a possible god. I do not rule god out ,but if he exists,he needs to shape up.I am not pro or contra a deist god, i am against judgemental god who motivates people to do evil in his name
There would be peace and unity in the world if everyone believed the way Bishop Spong believes. But unfortunately the religious leaders like power so they feed off peoples weaknesses, most people as well like to judge, label and give pain to others.
This helped me restore some of my faith in humanity, In the end I don't know who's wolrld view is right, but if you make your goal love then if your wrong, then at least you're wrong for the right reasons.
You can force people to say I believe but in there hearts they dont believe. People need to believe with their hearts not with their words. Its whats in their hearts
I agreed with most of what Spong says. I really liked the stories of the gospel of John and the book of Hosea Spong referred to. But when I tried to find them in the bible, I discovered: they are not there! At least not like he told them or anything coming even a little close it.
No wonder I didn't hear about this guy within Atheism. He's just afraid to go all the way & disprove his bishopship & the rest of all religion by only covering the little stuff that he can twist onto anyone but God. You'll notice he covers none of the true evils of God & also that only God performs, like the entire Bible. Nothing on the evils of the Commandments, the Flood, JOb, Phillistines, Abraham or even a word of Jesus' TOTAL self-betrayal in the Revelation. Once a fraud, always a fraud!
@Iggyocracy I'm reading his book at the moment and he has discussed the flood, the commandments , Abraham and the story of Sodom and other things. I really don't think he's afraid to tackle anything in the bible head on and with a scholar's perspective.
@XitemeM Though, I have now completed my research & finalized my discovery of The Revelation of the Bible, knowing the truth to this entire world & knowing what John says here & specifically at 14:10 to 14:50 is that answer. I don't doubt John covers everything & he clearly knows the truth behind the world, but to blame the People for misguided hate & behavior while justifying God's immorals & unethicals is quite telling. The People proved God wrong & John still tries to prove the People wrong.
@Iggyocracy The God portrayed in the Bible that John talks about there is what he refers to as a 'Tribal Deity'. For me the message from John (so far) has been to remember that the Bible was penned by humans who are influenced by the prejudies, culture and knowledge of their age. Our understanding of God is an unfolding process through the ages and you're right to dislike the notion of God as a tribal deity. You're also right to dislike the (false) voice of Jesus in Revelations.
@XitemeM That's what I & soon everyone will find most surprising. That, our so-called Evil Globalists are actually the savior of all the religious & the only ones worthy of God. Having created all the Gods & Satans throughout history to make God more appealing to those timely differences in trying to bring the people back to God's path. That the people, theist & atheist, are the stolen Jesus & the Lamb only deserving slaughter & actually causing God's wrath. The, look in the mirror for the evil.
ToBeSaltnLight is the perfect example of what at core is absolutely wrong and especially vile about religion. ToBe has Muslim (fundamentalists in particular) and Jewish (Zionists in particular) counterparts. Today, these hating, exclusionary prostelyzers of evil in the name of good can no longer slander, libel, murder or torture into submission those of us who do not believe their superstitious claims. Freedom of and from religion is the great emancipator of the spiritual mind.
He is right.. many christians do not understand what the scripture is saying. Some even do not know what Jesus is saying. Most did not aware what God want. No one see God, but people who has godly character, godly humans. So, what is your characters? godly or humanly? if you have pure humanly character then you need to learn about God and to believe Jesus is God. if you have godly character, people will trust you upon what you say, do, act, and think.....
I would like to ask Mr. Spong if he believes Jesus said “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13-14). He'll probably say no, because it contradicts what he is teaching.
well, it depends on how to you define that path, wouldn't it? for many, they find it a harder path to stand alongside the oppressed and marginal ones--women that are unjustly ignored and denied of leadership in the church, extending leadership to the poor and those deemed insignificant in church's political process, or overcoming fear of gays/lesbians and giving them an equal footing in our faith community.
@DavidDayPraise Christ has defined the narrow road. The point of the broad and narrow road is not about who you choose to stand alongside, but about salvation and life. Mr. Spong is teaching that certain texts of scripture are "terrible" and should be disassociated with the bible. By taking out these verses it broadens the road to God. Christ warned about taking this approach because it’s erroneous. Anyone who is repentant of their sin should have "equal footing."
@ToBeSaltnLight Shelby does not believe that any of the bible is true, he thinks its all a made up book, he figured out there is a market out there of millions of people who want to call themselves something, Christian, and be able to live whatever life they want, without no future judgment, and that sells lots of books, and that's how he makes a good living, simple as that.
God sacrificed of himself through his Son Jesus Christ. He did this for our sins. The shedding of blood was the way that humanity achieved atonement for sin. So, through the blood of Christ we are cleansed from our sin. He has atoned (made amends) for our sins. I care about the bible because I believe it is a historical collection of books that document God's interaction with humanity. It contains the truth of who God is and what he has done for everyone.
He states that any scripture that diminishes human life should be rejected. But, he himself teaches the diminishment of human life through supporting Roe v. Wade and euthanasia. He is disingenuous in his teachings. It is not the scripture that diminishes human life, but the people who interpret the scripture to diminish human life that are in error. The bible didn't tell people to hate the Jews. It's PEOPLE who took scripture and use it to teach hate of the Jews.
It is also PEOPLE who wrote the scriptures in the first place and, while it is true that a text can be misrepresented and misused, the fact remains that there are some truly terrible things instructed by the bible.
This is what the bible describes as a false teaching. How do we know his teaching is false, because it contradicts scripture and who God has revealed himself to be through scripture. God is a God of love, but he is also a God of justice. This man is a smart man, but being intelligent does not mean one understands the bible. He has shown with his comment on the Hebrews putting blood on the doors. This was an antitype of the salvation that was to occur through Jesus Christ in the future.
Scripture doesn't reveal anything about God (including his existence), and if you think that the god of the bible represents either love or justice, then your moral standards are utterly reprehensible. The old testament god is a vicious, egomaniacal monster, and the god of the new testament is (if anything) even more sick and cruel.
@salamace7 If that is what you think about scripture then that's a poor understanding of the bible. God's greatest revelation of himself is through Jesus Christ. Whom we learn about in the Gospels and the New Testament. God being the God of love sacrificed of himself for all of us. Jesus said "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends, (John 15:13)" Boy, that does sound morally reprehensible (being facetious).
okay great speaker, but: so then if i got this right, war is bad, but abortion is not, as in vote for the pro choice person, because we are over populated.....and.....Hell is a man made idea, Hell is not real, but he said the work "evil" about a dozen times......who wan'ts to set me straight on all this.......
I like people like mr Spong who break the old manmade rules and tells the truth of the Word. More people need to stand up with a new direction. Jesus did it too. Millions of christians are mislead and following man's word. Make them search the real truth and not follow what everyone claims to be truth but is not literally from the bible. Listen to Jesus word not that of confusing man. God bless you!
@royalsteven If you're serious about 'searching for truth', start by questioning the authenticity of the gospels. Have you? Or do you just take it on faith? Do you read what scholars say about the authorship of the new testament? Are you just going to say Jesus appeared in your life? Revelation isn't where truth comes from. Education is the process of searching for truth, and education does not begin with a leap of faith. Your ideas of Jesus come from the gospels and they are not that reliable
@AR333 Good post. Out of interest though, what is your personal position?
You seem to have made a decent case that christians ought to start from a more neutral, non-theistic (either deistic or atheistic) position regarding spiritual truth and only accept jesus/yahweh/the bible if what they find fits, was that your intention?
Considering the rather dodgy origins of the NT canon (and their lack of historical reliability) would we not be better off discarding the book altogether?
@EnglishTMTB I am an atheist. I think it is foolish that christian apologetics ever even had a branch called 'presuppositionalism'. This school of thought began with the assumption that the bible is the word of god, and went on from there. That is just foolish. You can tell that's what this royalsteven guy is doing. He gets his info of Jesus from the NT, I tell him to question it, and look at his reply: "Jesus is the truth". Most religious people just swallow these claims without blinking an eye
What do you mean? That was my whole point. I do not listen to man anymore but only to what Jesus said. He is the truth for me not deceivingl man. Man says different things, Jesus says one thing. Love and acceptance. Knowledge is nothing compared to wisdom. The wisdom that God gives will give you life and understanding. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind" and, "Love your neighbor as yourself".
"You have answered correctly", Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live". (Luke 10:27-28) "Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong. Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow. "Come now, let us settle the matter", says the Lord "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing
We are alive because of that. He always told He was going to die or be persecuted. But where in the bible does Jesus say he is going to die for our sins? Take the truth from the Messiah directly not from man. Jesus was killed by the Romans because the high priests envied him too much. I found out the truth also, too late, but luckily. I say this out of concern for the truth and my fellow believers. I don't want to be called an occultist for claiming this.
exist within love. What a horrible thought also that a loving Father would willingly kill/sacrfice His own son. Why else did Jesus say Father forgive them for they not know what they do? If it was God's plan? Blood, suffering and cross symbol of torture/crucifixtion is what christianity seems to be based on and christians put too much empathize on this negative stuff wich is from evil. The most important thing must be Jesus resurrection! He showed us that He conquered death!
'God give His only Son... This is a twisted idea of man on the Word like many other words they twisted with their own interpretation. The verse just means God gave His Son to this world. Send His son to earth to spread the good word! Jesus saved sinners and cleared them from sin since he was on earth, much earlier already than his death. We are forgiven without Him have to die and shed blood for us by his mercy, love and forgiveness. God is love only. Judgment, murder and negative can not
At MrMohjong What I've read of Spong is that he advocates for ending theocracy. He does not mean we have to give up Christ or God, but that we have to take our egos out of the picture.
The future of Christianity will hopefully be led and influenced by people like John Spong. As a free thinker I think ALL the texts of the bibles are man made. But with people like him injecting common sense and reason into religion there may be some light at the end of the tunnel. I wish this man all the best in this life.
hey guys....i been thinkin....and smokin a lot of pot to facilitate the process.....what if both evolution and creationism are correct....like except that maybe creationists need to lean a little more towards Spongs definition of God
There are certainly Christians who accept evolution. Sadly, I think most in North America don't. Furthermore, most Christians would probably be hostile to Spong's "watered-down" version of God.
That is by far the best sermon - from a Christian - that I have ever heard in my current lifetime! I actually listened to the entire sermon and I am extremely impressed while walking away with many new budding thoughts and ideas. We need more people of "the cloth" like Bishop John Shelby Spong. Much love...
i actually really like this guy - he isn't like most evangelists/apologists like bill craig and frank turek - basically politicians or defence attorneys for christianity - this guy is real.
Great... The start of another reformation. Another reason for Christianity to stay.. But this version of a non-intrusive Christianity is something I definitely won't mind.
@HereIsJesus Constantine: 4th Century. King James: 17th century. I also find it awkward that you claimed Constantine did anything to the New Testament other than put it together for the first time at the Council of Nicaea. How can you remove 70% of something that never existed?
There's a great question at the end, with a great answer. If you have only a moment, skip to 1:11:50 and hear a lady ask, "If there are such terrible texts in the bible, and so many texts have been disproved by history, why do we keep using it?"
Life can be influenced by many things but our heart will accept and reflect things that it truly desires and that would not change regardless if we believe that God exists or not.
I am a non-religious (Atheistic to most religious) secular progressive. But, this is a Christian that I can respect, revere, & admire. If all of Christiandom was this rational & intelligent - there would be no need of Atheism.
There is no evidence that if Jesus had of started a religion, he would have chose something like Christianity. In fact, I`m pretty sure he would have founded a much different religion.
51:21 If only that were number one of the ten commandments. It should be the first commandment of any religion.
MrHueJazz1 13 hours ago
47:17 - 47:47
eparkbuckeye 13 hours ago
he is such a lady's man!
me25422 2 days ago
This man restores my faith in Christianity. Thank God! (even though I have trouble believing lol)
me25422 2 days ago
I assume you mean "pompous" which you have obviously misspelled. I'm also proud to not be a foul-mouthed troll who can't spell.
dymchurch1 1 week ago
Lol, I'm not a christian but give me an honest conservative christian who at least has the guts proclaim their beliefs rather than than this pompous gasbag
whyteay 1 week ago
@whyteay u sound pretty christian. lol
me25422 3 days ago
This guy puts me in mind of Jed Bartlett on the West Wing
ROBthePHOTOGRAPHER 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Potentially life altering for me. I have some reading to do.
damrak1969 1 month ago
Potentially life altering for me. I have some reading to do.
damrak1969 1 month ago 2
The last couple of minutes of this speech (the Q & A section) are beautiful. Bishop Spong is a bright man.
CrusherCurley 1 month ago
I wish I lived closer to him. I would go see him as often as I could!
He definitely restored my faith in the reason of the Bible...
His desire is bring common sense back to the Christian arena... but as he says its been in short supply for quite some time.
1472asdf 1 month ago
I'm an agnostic but as an American I'm proud that Spong is one too.
dymchurch1 1 month ago
@dymchurch1 You pompus fucking arsehole. Noone gives a shit where you're from. Twat.
whyteay 1 week ago
I'm an agnostic and I love this guy.
shaygahweh 1 month ago
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souvikdas 1 month ago in playlist Favorite videos
John Shelby Spong has given me the words, the confidence, the clarity, to finally articulate what I have truly come to believe these past 4 years of questioning. I am at peace with my existence, I am overflowing with love and appreciation of the depth of humanity, and I accept the gift of logic and reason and rationality that my creator has given me. I can finally live a genuine, rich life. Thank you Bishop Spong.
jcpent12 1 month ago
A breath of fresh air.
Lukieloo 1 month ago
Is there a transcript of this lecture for the hearing impaired?? I cannot find one online :(
eurofilmkid 1 month ago
he is pretty much an atheist using "good" christian values. This guy needs to make up his mind. he's a loser for not decided his beliefs yet. I have more respect for an atheist than this guy
KingDcome11 1 month ago
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KingDcome11 1 month ago
I enjoyed learning from Bishop Spong that after we get rid of the Terrrible Texts of the Bible, the ones used along history to justify so much cruelty, injustice and oppression, we can focus on the texts that reflect the Love of God.He `s an eloquent, dynamic, informed and persuasive speaker.
serbangheorghe 2 months ago
cont'd
Essentially, Spong has no evidence or solid basis for his beliefs in the panentheist form of God. It is merely one of many possibilities and nothing solid to stand on.
wlemusic 2 months ago
Spong is a paradox. He has lost his faith in the theistic God of the Bible and yet he sees value in the Christian experience and he remains a "Christian". He claims he is "God intoxicated" and "almost a mystic" and yet his panentheist beliefs amount to no more than mere hypothesis. Since he lays waste to the information about God claimed in the Bible, what is his basis for believing in a panentheist form of God? Essentially, his views about God are highly subjective and unfalsifiable.
wlemusic 2 months ago
I feel my love to God is restored!
MegaVldmr 2 months ago
The most irritating thing about Mr Spong is not his unbelief, but rather his dishonesty. Refusing to give up his clerical garb & his title, thus a wolf in shepherd's garb, pretending to be an overseer of Jesus' sheep while attempting to destroy the faith that binds a man to Jesus. Pretending to be a protector and liberator when in reality, he is only a thief and an arch-hypocrite who is ever quick to see hypocrisy in others.
tumbleweeeeeed 3 months ago
@tumbleweeeeeed I couldn't agree more. Whenever I hear Spong speaking he always reminds me of the snakey charcter in the garden of Eden story, and conversely, when I read that very true story, I can always see the 'bishop''s face with the mouth opening and the darting tongue slithering out, 'Yea, hath God said?.....
ruthamyallan1 3 months ago
@tumbleweeeeeed
you truly do not grasp what Spong is saying. you have neither the willingness, nor the capacity, to set aside your human systems of language and surface level reasoning to truly understand what Spong says about Jesus. that he is everything. he is what binds us to the faith. Jesus matters. because Spong comes from a different, much more intelligent, and careful mode of thinking than you, you call him a heretic. enjoy continuing in the human defined fundamentalist fallacy.
jcpent12 1 month ago
@jcpent12 - U speak of a deluded tribe who imagine they are free to "set aside human systems of language." Consider the irrationality of that assertion, given that no other medium of conceptual communication exists. Such gnostic gymnastics are as old as time, as men have sought to defend their idolatry, worshiping gods which are invented, not revealed. Thus, Spong has no more right than Richard Dawkins to the title, "Christian Bishop." He is indeed a wolf in purple vestments.
tumbleweeeeeed 1 month ago
@tumbleweeeeeed I would much rather acknowledge the limited scope of my human understanding, than to subscribe to the belief that the god who created the intricacies of the human body (the unfathomably complex metabolic cycles, the unfathomably complex processes of development, etc) is the same god that sits in the clouds, demanding we forever stained humans use primitive, shallow modes of thought about our existence to appease him.
jcpent12 1 month ago
@tumbleweeeeeed and moreover, is it not ironic, that you ask me to consider the irrationality of the assertion that "some other mode of communication" exists, when for centuries we have bet the farm on god existing, with no real way but your own experience to tell you one way or the other. spong asks us to use our brains. I suggest you take a philosophy class or two, to truly understand what is meant by the pitfall of language. language must be used carefully. something most do not do.
jcpent12 1 month ago
@jcpent12 - It's not philosophy, but logic that's wanting here. My own axiom is the Bible, whereas yours is your own judgment, and while axioms are not, by their very nature provable, your own judgment is demonstrably faulty. Every argument you bring against the Bible is simply a matter of your opinion (to which you are fully entitled). My objection is to the idea that the idolatry of Spong has anything to do with historic Christianity. Lose the collar & go start your own religion.
tumbleweeeeeed 1 month ago
@tumbleweeeeeed Your axiom, is based upon the Bible, which was formulated based upon the human judgment of men that lived thousands of years ago. All axioms are faulty, you just feel a certain security in your axiom, as it provides a lovely structure to all this, never mind the atrocities of "human judgment" sprinkled throughout. And Spong seeks to distance himself entirely from historic Christianity, that's the point of all this. And religion should matter not. That's where we've lost it
jcpent12 1 month ago
@tumbleweeeeeed as a modern society. The rules, the fear, the segregation, these are the things that have helped establish religions. The "tribal thinking" (so true!) of religion hampers us from truly living and existing with God everyday. It's a simple way of life, exist and love, and USE YOUR BRAIN. I guess that's the "religion" I should go off and start, huh.
jcpent12 1 month ago
@jcpent12 - Please forgive me if this sounds patronizing, but your thoughts (& certainly Spong's) are mere gut-reactions & not thinking at all in the formal sense. The question is not whether certain things sit well with you & me, but whether they are true. We cannot emote our way thru life. In logic, an Axiom is the necessary, but unprovable starting place for any deduction. Re. God, yours/Spong's is the infallibility of your opinion; mine IS the Bible because objectivity demands it
tumbleweeeeeed 1 month ago
@tumbleweeeeeed All good points, thanks for the enlightening debate, and forgive me if I've come off as hostile! I seek to understand what it is happening here, where my religious traditions fit in, and where my torturous logic is reconciled in it as well. I do not ever hope to say that my opinions views are infallible, and I hope I haven't come off like that, and I will make sure I do not portray that from now on. This is, I think, precisely what fundamentalists refuse to do, with their views.
jcpent12 1 month ago
@jcpent12 - Thanks JC, but I'm guilty too! The anonymity of the net tempts us all to get a little cocky, especially when it comes to polemics. It really would be nice to have a bit more room so we'd be less likely to misunderstand one another, so if you'd like to continue this by email, write to me at dunringil AT hushmail DOTcom. BTW, I agree with you re. "fundamentalists", though sadly, the term is generally misunderstood & mis-applied in modern times
tumbleweeeeeed 1 month ago
@jcpent12 - Isn't 500 characters frustrating? Let me add:
#1: U/Spong say "the Bible was formulated based upon the human judgment of men.", whereas the Bible itself says holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit (II Pe.1:21) Objectively, why should anyone believe U & not scripture's testimony?
#2: If Spong seeks to distance himself from historic Christianity, why does he clutch at the dress/title of it's authority? This cuckoo lays his eggs in other people's nests
tumbleweeeeeed 1 month ago
@trobaugh87 - There is absolutely no evidence that Jesus was against Jewish dogma. He said in Matthew 5, "Until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." He quotes OT passages as though they are the literal word of God and literal events. To suggest that Jesus believed in God the same way as Spong does is merely wishful thinking. Do you have any proof to support such a claim?
wlemusic 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
As I said, "There is validity to some of Spong's criticisms about the Bible and Christian practice throughout history". My critique of Spong is that if he is against the Bible why on earth does he wear a collar as a representative of the Christian Church? Why does he remain a bishop? He should get out of the church altogether and start some sort of new movement.
wlemusic 4 months ago
trobaugh87, There is validity to some of Spong's criticisms about the Bible and Christian practice throughout history. However, in stripping Christianity of its holy text, Spong is left with nothing to stand on except his own imaginings about God. He is, in effect, inventing his own version of God.
wlemusic 4 months ago
@wlemusic The bible itself is a human invention of God. God didn't write it! It's our trying to understand God and he is pointing out the problems, flaws, and misunderstandings of God and Jesus.
trobaugh87 4 months ago
Respond to this video... Christianity isn't what Jesus taught. It's intertwined with Jewish dogmas and Jesus himself was against these dogsmas and that's why he was killed. It's ironic and frustrating that he is still intertwined in all of the old testament bs, but I'm happy that the story of Jesus has lived on this long no matter how distorted or ignored his message has been, I'm greatful it's been available for me to find.
trobaugh87 4 months ago
Spong's theology is based on nothing except his own imaginings, as he has simultaneously betrayed reason and the Christian Scriptures. If he rejects the tenets of Christian theology I would prefer he not call himself a Christian and start some sort of new religion altogether.
wlemusic 4 months ago
@wlemusic They're not imaginings they are facts and historical truths.
trobaugh87 4 months ago
54:25 ..............
grandteamclub 4 months ago
John Shelby Spong is teaching that we need to use our brain
grandteamclub 4 months ago 7
There's nothing 'christian' about the liberalism of this apostate who denies every article of the Christian faith, and the very Word of God itself!
MrOzanachronism 5 months ago
@MrOzanachronism Who are you to say what the word of god is? The qoran and every other religion is supposedly the word of god. get real
trobaugh87 4 months ago
@trobaugh87 A nobody saved by the Grace of God, who was blinded by the God of this world, and as much of a scoffer as you. Muhammad was visited an angel, and had visions revealed to him of the 'truth', and that it was of God, when actually, the 'truth' revealed to him by this angel is an amalgam of Allah the pagan moon god, co-opted into a quasi-Abramic covenant, which is how you get modern-day Islam. If 'an angel from heaven preach any other gospel... let him be accursed.' (Galatians 1:8-9)
MrOzanachronism 4 months ago
@MrOzanachronism The funny thing is that Islam in essence doesn't contradict christianity. Stop spreading lies and hatred. Galatians was written before the qoran you moron!
trobaugh87 4 months ago
Respond to this video... Galatians was also written by man once again so your argument is not valid. allah simply means god. calling it a pagan moon god is your distortion of what it is. you're a small minded, pathetic, sad person.
trobaugh87 4 months ago
@trobaugh87 It is only invalid if I accept your presumption that it was 'written by man'. 'All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:' 2 Timothy 3:16 The divine inspiration of the God's word can and has been proven - ever heard of Ivan Panin?
I have presented facts about Allah, only to be met with subjective name-calling, and reflexive charges of 'distortion' - not very broad minded.
MrOzanachronism 4 months ago
@trobaugh87 If it is a distortion, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate.
Small minded and pathetic, you say.I'd be looking a bit closer to home, if I were you.
MrOzanachronism 4 months ago
Riveting. Even fundamentalist Christians will be glued to the screen.
Wilfredo6914 5 months ago
@Wilfredo6914 You think? To them, he is the ultimate heretic and anti-christ. SMH
kingda117 5 months ago in playlist knowing
@kingda117
No different then what the teachers of the Law felt about Jesus. Even if they don't agree, it is difficult to ignore Spong. He is a very inviting speaker who draws the listener in.
Wilfredo6914 5 months ago
@Wilfredo6914 Inviting he may be, because the devil himself is transformed into an angel of light for a season to get people in the door.
'For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostle of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Cor 11: 12-14
MrOzanachronism 5 months ago
@MrOzanachronism "deceitful worker"... like yourself? Deceitful: Given to cheating or deceiving.
; Deliberately misleading; deceptive. See dishonest! Cheating: being omnipotent and yet imposing herital sin onto man, all the while pretending free will could co-exist with an omnipotent being. Turn your evangelical BS around and fuck off! Blessed are the simple minded indeed!
godsadouchebag 5 months ago
@godsadouchebag Honey the simple minded are the ones who read the bible literally and forget the original teachings on jesus himself :)
trobaugh87 4 months ago
Outstanding!
kadene2 6 months ago in playlist Religion and Reasonable Doubts
all this god jive is boring. I don't find anything interesting about god; I find god boring. besides god isn't real ; god is just an allegorical concept. I find the god concept boring.
when I hear Jesus is love, god is love it doesn't faze me at all
god is just a made up term for something we don't know & understand. we are all going to die someday & that's the bottom line the god concept was invented for this reason no body wants to die & be no more! it's all BS.
xspettacolare 6 months ago
@xspettacolare I once had similar views. Fear of death is real, however my religious views are no longer based on fear, it is more about the search for genuine truth in community. There is a "force" out there that binds us. Maybe you will make the connection someday?
Wilfredo6914 5 months ago
@xspettacolare rather sad that you don't value the nuance, the open mind and the new insights on theism. As an agnost and former atheist i appreciate this vid especially because it refutes all god-nuts acting on gods behalf. In this vid dogma is abandonned, a necessary evolution towards reason. It reduces religion to what it really is; a culturally induced mechanism. In my view it is an appeal to respect for cultural heritage and reason. Religion stripped down of power-mechanisms, so respect
godsadouchebag 5 months ago
@godsadouchebag
I forgot to mention that I like John Shelby Spong.
xspettacolare 4 months ago
Oh, and Spong vs Dawkins needs to be done.
chrismrulz 6 months ago
@chrismrulz: totally agree, if the chemistry would work, i 'd guess you simply would get philisophical nitoglycerine. best regards!
godsadouchebag 6 months ago
The bishop should direct a movie of a biblical re-enactment of some kind..
Highlighting that people were re-writing scripture and using it to justify hatred, and there were few that actually followed Jesus and God's actual word.
Like "The Real Passion Of The Christ".
Or a new bible that doesn't just rephrase verses that involve murder and such, it only has positives in it. (not to replace the old bible obviously, there still needs to be a reference of the original text displaying false editing)
chrismrulz 6 months ago
I found this video in the channel of the user godsadouchebag... ironic huh?
IALON 6 months ago
@IALON so why would that be ironic? it just proves that people can be open to any idea. I am not deist but i could live with religion if it took this form. I am, however, happy that you can appreciate this vid too, and hope that it provides the same insight as it did for me.
godsadouchebag 6 months ago
@godsadouchebag its ironic cuz your username says god is a douchebag but you are sharing a video that is pro-god, do you see the irony? Have a good day
IALON 6 months ago
@IALON what spong is saying: god might have been present in the begining ,but now he may be gone; a deist approach, hence the name; if god exists,he is messing up or he is absent. Spong completely rejects the active judgemental god. My username does not exclude the existence of god, it is about the nature of a possible god. I do not rule god out ,but if he exists,he needs to shape up.I am not pro or contra a deist god, i am against judgemental god who motivates people to do evil in his name
godsadouchebag 6 months ago
I want to thank you for posting this
Mrcjma1 6 months ago
There would be peace and unity in the world if everyone believed the way Bishop Spong believes. But unfortunately the religious leaders like power so they feed off peoples weaknesses, most people as well like to judge, label and give pain to others.
fufrombara 7 months ago
This helped me restore some of my faith in humanity, In the end I don't know who's wolrld view is right, but if you make your goal love then if your wrong, then at least you're wrong for the right reasons.
sideshowchad 7 months ago 22
you tolerate the doctrines of spong?
you have nothing to say to me.
Strefanasha 7 months ago
Spong Bob!
TheGuilanvi 8 months ago
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ZeusHelios 8 months ago
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ZeusHelios 8 months ago
@ZeusHelios maybe, but I, for one, would rather watch a much longer video.
auriciangelescu 7 months ago
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ZeusHelios 7 months ago
@ZeusHelios: what I meant is I really like this man, can't get enough of him and I could listen to him all day.
auriciangelescu 7 months ago
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ZeusHelios 7 months ago
@ZeusHelios: it's OK, I hadn't been explicit. My fault.
auriciangelescu 7 months ago
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ZeusHelios 8 months ago
You can force people to say I believe but in there hearts they dont believe. People need to believe with their hearts not with their words. Its whats in their hearts
ZeusHelios 8 months ago
I agreed with most of what Spong says. I really liked the stories of the gospel of John and the book of Hosea Spong referred to. But when I tried to find them in the bible, I discovered: they are not there! At least not like he told them or anything coming even a little close it.
MARI0LAND 8 months ago
sexism is cool
drewskione 9 months ago
No wonder I didn't hear about this guy within Atheism. He's just afraid to go all the way & disprove his bishopship & the rest of all religion by only covering the little stuff that he can twist onto anyone but God. You'll notice he covers none of the true evils of God & also that only God performs, like the entire Bible. Nothing on the evils of the Commandments, the Flood, JOb, Phillistines, Abraham or even a word of Jesus' TOTAL self-betrayal in the Revelation. Once a fraud, always a fraud!
Iggyocracy 9 months ago
@Iggyocracy I'm reading his book at the moment and he has discussed the flood, the commandments , Abraham and the story of Sodom and other things. I really don't think he's afraid to tackle anything in the bible head on and with a scholar's perspective.
XitemeM 8 months ago
@XitemeM Though, I have now completed my research & finalized my discovery of The Revelation of the Bible, knowing the truth to this entire world & knowing what John says here & specifically at 14:10 to 14:50 is that answer. I don't doubt John covers everything & he clearly knows the truth behind the world, but to blame the People for misguided hate & behavior while justifying God's immorals & unethicals is quite telling. The People proved God wrong & John still tries to prove the People wrong.
Iggyocracy 8 months ago
@Iggyocracy The God portrayed in the Bible that John talks about there is what he refers to as a 'Tribal Deity'. For me the message from John (so far) has been to remember that the Bible was penned by humans who are influenced by the prejudies, culture and knowledge of their age. Our understanding of God is an unfolding process through the ages and you're right to dislike the notion of God as a tribal deity. You're also right to dislike the (false) voice of Jesus in Revelations.
XitemeM 8 months ago
@XitemeM That's what I & soon everyone will find most surprising. That, our so-called Evil Globalists are actually the savior of all the religious & the only ones worthy of God. Having created all the Gods & Satans throughout history to make God more appealing to those timely differences in trying to bring the people back to God's path. That the people, theist & atheist, are the stolen Jesus & the Lamb only deserving slaughter & actually causing God's wrath. The, look in the mirror for the evil.
Iggyocracy 8 months ago
I clicked off a Hitchens video to watch this? Why yes. Yes I did. I'm an idiot.
wormdrink414 9 months ago
@wormdrink414 How big are you?
drewskione 9 months ago
@drewskione 6+ inches. Depends on the weather.
wormdrink414 9 months ago
ToBeSaltnLight is the perfect example of what at core is absolutely wrong and especially vile about religion. ToBe has Muslim (fundamentalists in particular) and Jewish (Zionists in particular) counterparts. Today, these hating, exclusionary prostelyzers of evil in the name of good can no longer slander, libel, murder or torture into submission those of us who do not believe their superstitious claims. Freedom of and from religion is the great emancipator of the spiritual mind.
jereuter01 9 months ago
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jereuter01 9 months ago
The early fathers of the 17th century!! Well, if your culture is only 200 years maybe. x
helenmarplehorvat 10 months ago
@helenmarplehorvat Maybe he's referring to the fathers of the episcopal church, which was founded in the 17th century?
k1llk1ngph30n1x 9 months ago
It's wonderful how getting death threats is listed as one of his credentials.
SirKickz 10 months ago
brilliant guy!
sunsirel 10 months ago
He is right.. many christians do not understand what the scripture is saying. Some even do not know what Jesus is saying. Most did not aware what God want. No one see God, but people who has godly character, godly humans. So, what is your characters? godly or humanly? if you have pure humanly character then you need to learn about God and to believe Jesus is God. if you have godly character, people will trust you upon what you say, do, act, and think.....
bumsinwa 10 months ago
I would like to ask Mr. Spong if he believes Jesus said “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13-14). He'll probably say no, because it contradicts what he is teaching.
ToBeSaltnLight 10 months ago
well, it depends on how to you define that path, wouldn't it? for many, they find it a harder path to stand alongside the oppressed and marginal ones--women that are unjustly ignored and denied of leadership in the church, extending leadership to the poor and those deemed insignificant in church's political process, or overcoming fear of gays/lesbians and giving them an equal footing in our faith community.
DavidDayPraise 10 months ago
@DavidDayPraise Christ has defined the narrow road. The point of the broad and narrow road is not about who you choose to stand alongside, but about salvation and life. Mr. Spong is teaching that certain texts of scripture are "terrible" and should be disassociated with the bible. By taking out these verses it broadens the road to God. Christ warned about taking this approach because it’s erroneous. Anyone who is repentant of their sin should have "equal footing."
ToBeSaltnLight 10 months ago
@ToBeSaltnLight Shelby does not believe that any of the bible is true, he thinks its all a made up book, he figured out there is a market out there of millions of people who want to call themselves something, Christian, and be able to live whatever life they want, without no future judgment, and that sells lots of books, and that's how he makes a good living, simple as that.
hemet92544 9 months ago
God sacrificed of himself through his Son Jesus Christ. He did this for our sins. The shedding of blood was the way that humanity achieved atonement for sin. So, through the blood of Christ we are cleansed from our sin. He has atoned (made amends) for our sins. I care about the bible because I believe it is a historical collection of books that document God's interaction with humanity. It contains the truth of who God is and what he has done for everyone.
ToBeSaltnLight 10 months ago
He states that any scripture that diminishes human life should be rejected. But, he himself teaches the diminishment of human life through supporting Roe v. Wade and euthanasia. He is disingenuous in his teachings. It is not the scripture that diminishes human life, but the people who interpret the scripture to diminish human life that are in error. The bible didn't tell people to hate the Jews. It's PEOPLE who took scripture and use it to teach hate of the Jews.
ToBeSaltnLight 10 months ago
It is also PEOPLE who wrote the scriptures in the first place and, while it is true that a text can be misrepresented and misused, the fact remains that there are some truly terrible things instructed by the bible.
salamace7 10 months ago
This is what the bible describes as a false teaching. How do we know his teaching is false, because it contradicts scripture and who God has revealed himself to be through scripture. God is a God of love, but he is also a God of justice. This man is a smart man, but being intelligent does not mean one understands the bible. He has shown with his comment on the Hebrews putting blood on the doors. This was an antitype of the salvation that was to occur through Jesus Christ in the future.
ToBeSaltnLight 10 months ago
Scripture doesn't reveal anything about God (including his existence), and if you think that the god of the bible represents either love or justice, then your moral standards are utterly reprehensible. The old testament god is a vicious, egomaniacal monster, and the god of the new testament is (if anything) even more sick and cruel.
salamace7 10 months ago
@salamace7 If that is what you think about scripture then that's a poor understanding of the bible. God's greatest revelation of himself is through Jesus Christ. Whom we learn about in the Gospels and the New Testament. God being the God of love sacrificed of himself for all of us. Jesus said "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends, (John 15:13)" Boy, that does sound morally reprehensible (being facetious).
ToBeSaltnLight 10 months ago
Well, let's look at that, shall we? Answer me the following questions:
1. What EXACTLY did god sacrifice?
2. What good is a blood sacrifice, and why?
3. Why should I (and, for that matter, why do you) care what the bible says about ANYTHING?
salamace7 10 months ago
I mean he said the "word" evil
hemet92544 10 months ago
okay great speaker, but: so then if i got this right, war is bad, but abortion is not, as in vote for the pro choice person, because we are over populated.....and.....Hell is a man made idea, Hell is not real, but he said the work "evil" about a dozen times......who wan'ts to set me straight on all this.......
hemet92544 10 months ago
What does ozon-layer have to do with global warming?? :P Otherwise, good stuff
SpitfireFang 11 months ago
Youtube needs to implement a bookmark option. So you can stop a video and watch the rest some other time later.
aligatorsandwitch72 11 months ago
@aligatorsandwitch72
You pause it and come back to it ---- is how I do it.
majama20 10 months ago
@majama20 Quite hard to do that when you want to watch the rest on a different computer.
aligatorsandwitch72 10 months ago
... death threats ... ?
3NUNS 11 months ago
love is the answer
pgtrue 11 months ago
@pgtrue and you know that for sure
doktorkosmos213 11 months ago
I like people like mr Spong who break the old manmade rules and tells the truth of the Word. More people need to stand up with a new direction. Jesus did it too. Millions of christians are mislead and following man's word. Make them search the real truth and not follow what everyone claims to be truth but is not literally from the bible. Listen to Jesus word not that of confusing man. God bless you!
royalsteven 1 year ago
@royalsteven If you're serious about 'searching for truth', start by questioning the authenticity of the gospels. Have you? Or do you just take it on faith? Do you read what scholars say about the authorship of the new testament? Are you just going to say Jesus appeared in your life? Revelation isn't where truth comes from. Education is the process of searching for truth, and education does not begin with a leap of faith. Your ideas of Jesus come from the gospels and they are not that reliable
AR333 1 year ago
@AR333 Good post. Out of interest though, what is your personal position?
You seem to have made a decent case that christians ought to start from a more neutral, non-theistic (either deistic or atheistic) position regarding spiritual truth and only accept jesus/yahweh/the bible if what they find fits, was that your intention?
Considering the rather dodgy origins of the NT canon (and their lack of historical reliability) would we not be better off discarding the book altogether?
EnglishTMTB 1 year ago
@EnglishTMTB I am an atheist. I think it is foolish that christian apologetics ever even had a branch called 'presuppositionalism'. This school of thought began with the assumption that the bible is the word of god, and went on from there. That is just foolish. You can tell that's what this royalsteven guy is doing. He gets his info of Jesus from the NT, I tell him to question it, and look at his reply: "Jesus is the truth". Most religious people just swallow these claims without blinking an eye
AR333 1 year ago
What do you mean? That was my whole point. I do not listen to man anymore but only to what Jesus said. He is the truth for me not deceivingl man. Man says different things, Jesus says one thing. Love and acceptance. Knowledge is nothing compared to wisdom. The wisdom that God gives will give you life and understanding. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind" and, "Love your neighbor as yourself".
royalsteven 1 year ago
@royalsteven You really need to re-read my comment. A high school student can see the logical gap between my comment and your reply.
AR333 1 year ago
"You have answered correctly", Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live". (Luke 10:27-28) "Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong. Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow. "Come now, let us settle the matter", says the Lord "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing
royalsteven 1 year ago
and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword" (Jesaja 1:16-20)
royalsteven 1 year ago
We are alive because of that. He always told He was going to die or be persecuted. But where in the bible does Jesus say he is going to die for our sins? Take the truth from the Messiah directly not from man. Jesus was killed by the Romans because the high priests envied him too much. I found out the truth also, too late, but luckily. I say this out of concern for the truth and my fellow believers. I don't want to be called an occultist for claiming this.
royalsteven 1 year ago
exist within love. What a horrible thought also that a loving Father would willingly kill/sacrfice His own son. Why else did Jesus say Father forgive them for they not know what they do? If it was God's plan? Blood, suffering and cross symbol of torture/crucifixtion is what christianity seems to be based on and christians put too much empathize on this negative stuff wich is from evil. The most important thing must be Jesus resurrection! He showed us that He conquered death!
royalsteven 1 year ago
'God give His only Son... This is a twisted idea of man on the Word like many other words they twisted with their own interpretation. The verse just means God gave His Son to this world. Send His son to earth to spread the good word! Jesus saved sinners and cleared them from sin since he was on earth, much earlier already than his death. We are forgiven without Him have to die and shed blood for us by his mercy, love and forgiveness. God is love only. Judgment, murder and negative can not
royalsteven 1 year ago
At MrMohjong What I've read of Spong is that he advocates for ending theocracy. He does not mean we have to give up Christ or God, but that we have to take our egos out of the picture.
Lisarata 1 year ago
At MrMohjong What I've read of Spong is that he advocates for ending theocracy.
Lisarata 1 year ago
At MrMohjong What I've read of Spong is that he advocates for ending theocracy.
Lisarata 1 year ago
Enlightening, thank you.
J
50Violetta 1 year ago
What a wise man
BFDK 1 year ago
The future of Christianity will hopefully be led and influenced by people like John Spong. As a free thinker I think ALL the texts of the bibles are man made. But with people like him injecting common sense and reason into religion there may be some light at the end of the tunnel. I wish this man all the best in this life.
garysgreat 1 year ago
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kingda117 1 year ago
hey guys....i been thinkin....and smokin a lot of pot to facilitate the process.....what if both evolution and creationism are correct....like except that maybe creationists need to lean a little more towards Spongs definition of God
FreeMBS 1 year ago
@FreeMBS
There are certainly Christians who accept evolution. Sadly, I think most in North America don't. Furthermore, most Christians would probably be hostile to Spong's "watered-down" version of God.
Politicimo 1 year ago
I'm a atheist but Spong makes the idea of god a lot more likable then anything I've heard for any one else
MrMohjong 1 year ago 37
@MrMohjong - Agnostic here, and I feel the same. : )
50Violetta 1 year ago
@MrMohjong
True, if I was to become a Christian, it would be this guy's ideals i could get behind :)
TheJUMBOJAM 1 year ago
@MrMohjong ...that's because he is an atheist too.
bella50008 11 months ago
@bella50008
You're only sayng that because he sounds reasonable.
davewatcher 11 months ago
thanks bishop it was a wonderful lecture,
syraneko 9 months ago
That is by far the best sermon - from a Christian - that I have ever heard in my current lifetime! I actually listened to the entire sermon and I am extremely impressed while walking away with many new budding thoughts and ideas. We need more people of "the cloth" like Bishop John Shelby Spong. Much love...
CoffeyBreaks 1 year ago
Brilliant!
yostanker 1 year ago
This man is so epic he oozes geniusnessnessness :D
ALoreMiles 1 year ago
i actually really like this guy - he isn't like most evangelists/apologists like bill craig and frank turek - basically politicians or defence attorneys for christianity - this guy is real.
lukeism2 1 year ago
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Great... The start of another reformation. Another reason for Christianity to stay.. But this version of a non-intrusive Christianity is something I definitely won't mind.
LameCrippled 1 year ago
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LameCrippled 1 year ago
I'm a Satanist and I still thought that was interesting
pcmodhouse 1 year ago 2
I can feel truth when i hear it, this man talks it.
colloredbrothers 1 year ago
@HereIsJesus Constantine: 4th Century. King James: 17th century. I also find it awkward that you claimed Constantine did anything to the New Testament other than put it together for the first time at the Council of Nicaea. How can you remove 70% of something that never existed?
MisterSartor 1 year ago
i fucking love this guy!
halflifeproductionz 1 year ago 2
There's a great question at the end, with a great answer. If you have only a moment, skip to 1:11:50 and hear a lady ask, "If there are such terrible texts in the bible, and so many texts have been disproved by history, why do we keep using it?"
canadaduane 1 year ago
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Cyyael 1 year ago
If I had to become religious I would be like awesome man.
Davey850 1 year ago
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Spong on Dawkins and Harris: prospectinggod.blogspot.com/2007/03/pay-dirt-spong-on-dawkins-and-harris.html
MisterSartor 1 year ago
Life can be influenced by many things but our heart will accept and reflect things that it truly desires and that would not change regardless if we believe that God exists or not.
In other words we are a reflection of our heart.
StacyTood 1 year ago
If more preached sermons like this there would be less hate in this world.
inquiry10 1 year ago 2
Wow....
SmoothPinkWater 1 year ago
I am a non-religious (Atheistic to most religious) secular progressive. But, this is a Christian that I can respect, revere, & admire. If all of Christiandom was this rational & intelligent - there would be no need of Atheism.
doubtingED 1 year ago 5
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What a lecturous old, religious windbag.
SAOProductions1955 1 year ago
@SAOProductions1955 obviously you didn't listen to it.
ranoman 1 year ago
Finally, the truth about modern Reigion.
Geneyuzzzs2 1 year ago
This is my intro to Bp. Spong. Finally, I now see what everyone raves about!
mackbeemer 1 year ago 2
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jljanets202 1 year ago
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jljanets202 1 year ago
There is no evidence that if Jesus had of started a religion, he would have chose something like Christianity. In fact, I`m pretty sure he would have founded a much different religion.
Surroundx 1 year ago 2