@Snookerallan if you're implying people that make pascal's wager aren't educated you are wrong. A lot of very educated people mistakenly think this is a good argument (including Pascal himself).
"but then that would find the most demonic and evil god
that anyone's ever imagined, and have you follow that guy"
*Christian God says I will be tortured horrifically forever because I reject his mythology.
**I think we found that guy.
Also, the perceived persuasiveness of the wager perhaps speaks to our own cognitive biases as a species. No creation of a perfect being would have cognitive blindspots of that sort. But imperfect products of imperfect evolution would. Guess which one we must be!
Pascal's Wager is, indeed, stupid. As stupid as you'd have to expect the god with which you are hedging your bets to be. The belief wouldn't be genuine. I couldn't possibly pretend to believe because I simply don't. I may fool other humans but I don't think I could fool the "almighty creator" on the "day of judgement."
In my opinion, better to stick with what you really do or don't believe and hope that, if there is a god, that he respects you sticking to your guns.
True. As you said, the "believe just in case" fails because of OTHER religions with other hells and other punishments.
And to that I add: the "if I am wrong I loose nothing and if you are wrong you loose everything" also does not work because if the believer is wrong he DOES loose. He looses all the money spent on tithes (money that he could have used in quality of life) he looses the sleep on sunday mornings, he looses friendships with the nonbelievers that he shuns... he looses much of life
Pascal's Wager wasn't even "invented" by Pascal. Protagoras, the pre-Socratic (c. 490 - 420 B.C.) philosopher and others came up with it - or something extremely similar centuries before Pascal. Voltaire called it "indecent and childish". It's almost embarrassing to hear so-called intelligent people still trotting it out as if it were something clever. It's nearly as daft as Anselm's "ontological argument" - which has recently been dusted off and repackaged but remains juvenile garbage.
@mikelheron20 it's a very powerful seeming argument for people that already believe. That's why it's so common. It needs to be explained simply to people why it's such a bad argument because the fact is most people out there think it's a good argument.
@MystryBox It relies on convincing god of something that is untrue. A moment's reflection exposes it as nonsense. Also, why would god expect you to pretend to believe? It's like making a promise with your fingers crossed behind your back. Unfortunately, in this case, God can see your fingers. The absurdity of it all makes my head spin. It's illogical and immoral.
I think the best way to deal with this silly argument is that one cannot make themselves believe in god no more than one can make themselves believe in the Easter Bunny. You can't force someone to believe just because you think it's in their best interest. As Michael Shermer has said, " I hope there's an afterlife and I hope I'm going, but it doesn't make it true"
@mbluemyst I tried it once. I kept repeating: "I do believe in god. I do believe in god. I do, I do, I do believe in god." And you know what happened? - Nothing. Nothing apart from an unexpected manifestation of the Easter Bunny that is. Weird or what!
I am sure all of you believe in light and sound right? well can you prove light and sound to a blind and deaf person? Do you think it is logical for a blind/deaf person to say: "There is no such thing as light or sound"...? You cannot prove it to them no matter what you do... you can beam a radar in their pupil, blast a stereo in their ears, preach the bible all day long, hoping they'll just accept it because YOU know that it's the truth. Well you people aren't being logical then, are you?
@chromeninjar3d light and heat go together.. focusing light into a laser that can burn would get a blind person's attention and belief pretty quickly. Sound and vibration go together. Sit a deaf person on a subwoofer and they can feel the vibrations of the music. It's how a lot of schools introduce deaf people to the concepts of music. and by the way: Radar is radio waves. Most of us would never be aware that an active RADAR is being used i the vicinity.
@ChristopherEHealy "sound and vibration go together".No, Sound IS vibration, but 'SOUND' is [our response] to the different frequencies, and without this capability of a response, it would just be baseless vibrations. Light and heat go together? Light is photons, Heat is the energy, which follows the same principle of sound (vibrations). This is why you can heat a glass till it breaks as much as you can scream the right pitch and break it. It is all expanding energy. Also Interchangeable
wait... how is "Just in case" a weak argument? Check the stove "Just in case" you left it on, fill up the bottles "Just in case" the water stops running t'morrow, At least half way accept God "Just in case" I'm actually right, Check your work "Just in case" you missed a problem and might not get the grade you need to pass, delete this video "Just in case" judgment day may ACTUALLY come.. As far as I'm concerned, "Just in case" is one of the stronger things to say... i don't see why it's 'weak'?
@chromeninjar3d "Just in case" you are wrong - in this instance is a very weak argument. It is weak because those who say it as a reason why someone should support Christianity, could be equally as wrong about their religion - what if Christian God doesn't exist, but the Muslim one does, or the Jewish one, or the Juju at the bottom of the Sea, or Zeus, or Egyptian Gods, or Native American Gods. They are no less or more likely to be wrong than the Christian God.So why join Christ?
@fatheranthony4pope I did not say that "just in case" is a reason why you all should support Christianity. I said that Just in case Is a strong Argument to end Atheism. Because Atheism is the belief that there isn't a single god, diety, neither should be worship anything deemed superior, which essentially is Atheism against the world of believers (of any type of God). Therefore the "Just in case" argument works for all religions against Atheism. I can explain Christianity to you if you'd like.
Even if God buys into this covering-your-ass thing, it still fails to provide a reason to believe in your God over any other. An Islamic God may send you to hell, or maybe even the existence of a perverse God may be true that only sends atheists to heaven.
The issues with the Pascal's Wager is evident. It's not a convincing argument, so it may be a good idea for theists to revise their reasons in favour of their position.
A false belief can lead to bad decisions, causing harm (e.g. discrimination, reliance on faith healing, misogyny, oppression of homosexuals, opposition of science and medical advancements, etc.)
It neglects that not actually believing is hypocritical, and since God is omniscient, he'd detect that and not buy into it.
It's not a negligible/insignificant cost incurred to falsely believe, regardless of whether or not it's finite. The money and time expended accounts for up to 15% of one's income, and much of one's time (I cannot assert a specific amount of time as it's so subjective). It's significant if it's our one and only life on Earth.
wait, LOL i thought this was an argument for athiests to use on christians.. i don't spend every day of my life praying and going to church...so if it turns out god isn't real (which he isn't) but, wouldn't they have wasted much of their life?
Want answers proving CHRISTIANITY IS A HOAX? go here exposingchristianity dotcom this is from satanic points of views. Try to understand every road possible before chosing one of the biggest part of your life.
I'm a christian and I do believe in god. I dont tell them that they should worship him I just think that people have a right to choose what they believe in and we all have our paths, for mine its an act of faith and I respect other people
@MRchurch100 I'm more concerned with what is true than that people can choose to believe what they want. And note there is a big difference between respecting other people and respecting their beliefs. People get respect by default, beliefs do not. I don't question people in my videos, I question beliefs--beliefs often not worthy of respect.
@MystryBox but neither side can be proven or disproven so who are you to say what beliefs deserve respect ? you dont know anymore that any of us know were all in the same boat respect other beliefs you can learn from them instead of just dismissing as anyone who disagrees as silly
@flolikeasinkbro sorry you're wrong on several fronts. First the position of god existing can be proven: one way is to simply present this being you claim exists. Secondly simply because a position might not be provable does not make it worthy of respect. Many of my videos discuss the question of faith and whether or not it is worthy of respect--I think it's not.
@MystryBox It's also important to note that belief is not actually a choice - it's a compulsion on the basis of whether a person can agree on the truth value of a particular claim. The truth doesn't require one's approval to be true.
Since I sit on the outside, I see religion as harmful in all honesty. :|
@MRchurch100 But you still think anyone who isn't Christian or has accepted god or the lord into their heart in some way is going to hell, do you not?
@MRchurch100 Like most Christians you don't know much about your own religion.Where in the New Testament does it say anything remotely like "believe whatever you like - find your own path".Jesus is pretty clear."No one comes to the Father but through me". And what if you don't take up his offer? " In Matthew 25:41,we read that we will be told "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE" Jesus just aint the cuddly liberal you want him to be.
@MRchurch100 If you saw me about to fill my car with petrol while smoking a cigarette I'm guessing you would point out the danger. But you're quite content to let me choose my own path without seeking to influence my decision even though it may lead, in Christian terms, to eternal damnation. If I believed what Christians claim to believe I would spend every spare moment trying to save non-believers from their fate. Makes me wonder how sincere Christians are about what they claim to believe.
@mikelheron20 you dont understand what I'm trying to get at, I do tell people about christianity. but I dont push it in their faces, I'm the only one in my house who is a christian. I found my faith alone and by myself, I'm just different I gues, I'd just like to respect peoples wishes and what they choose to believe in, and also I would of thought you'd be smart enough to fill up your car without smoking lol
@mikelheron20 I'm not the best christian, but I like helping others and I like to respect others, and I respect your point and you're probably right. I'm just trying to be the best person I can be just like everyone else, christian or not
@MRchurch100 I am atheist but do the same thing about trying to be a good person and stay out of trouble, of course, without the worry of a sinister god that will burn me forever for not kissing his arse.
I love your reasoning, but I hate your photographic awareness...!!! You are squatting down at the bottom of the screen like some humpty dumpty who fell off the wall. I keep wanting to crane my neck to peer over the edge of my screen to see you properly. Please... lower your camera and lift your head up the screen. You're ''lurking''. But, otherwise... good stuff and no real offense meant.
the powers just live off of us vicariously and direct our thoughts and actions according to their will, and beleive me the shit works 'cause of all the sci-fy shit that's actually real that we think is decades off and we pay them to torment us and vote for them to rub it in our face because we are so programmed to not be able to attain it or be able to handle it, they are organized and empowered and so, yeah, god exists, it's a collective effort. That's what we get for believing any of it...
your iPhone will automatically lose its meaning when they release the next one, or when they drop a nuke, so will your Audi, so will your Bible, scroll, according to the church of planned obsolescence. they have already made this world obsolete right along with all the humanity that can be flushed down the drain, and if you don't beleive me, ask yourself why you want these things so badly? Once you've obtained what you desire, it becomes meaningless, and that's true in all things to some degree.
it comes down to he power of beleif, and that is psychology in essence, the consciousness has its own circus, and we are all clowns in the circus trying to establish and engage the audience to watch, and you can't control an audience unless the whole audience agrees with what's being presented. Like magic, you wouldn't go if you were not intrigued, suspend some disbelief or deny some belief, half empty half full. this society always leaves one feeling empty because it's shallow and meaningless
True. This is a bad argument. I'm not promoting that people join a religion, or promoting that people not join 1. But someone can't rationally say: you should worship a god, because "he" might come + punish you, after death, for not believing in him. It's hard to promote: protect yourself from things not proven to exist in the physical world. It's like saying: keep garlic under your bed, "just in case" a vampire tries to bite you while you sleep. [ I don't believe in V(s), BTW ].
You didn't even mention the fact that you can't just decide to believe something, at least I can't anyway. I believe what I think is most likely to be true. I can't just believe something because of a threat.
I surely do claim that I have found sound reasons to beleive God exists, so take it from me, Pascel's wager is a arguement. Instead of refuting a lack of evidence pointing toward god not existing, it implies that God might exist therefore he should be worshiped as to not offend him. This idea makes God out to be a simpleton incapable of seeing through such a rues, surely even antheist can see that.
Well said bro, I have this discussion with my Dad from time to time (it's his favourite argument for believing) and challenge him as to why he doesn't lose much sleep over whether or not he should convert to Islam. After all, they got the full revelation, Jesus was just a prophet, right? ;)
Best answer to Pascal's Wager is def from David Mitchell on QI: "what if there's a third option, and there is an afterlife but you only get to go to it if you're an atheist. All the christians, dead. And you get all the bitter atheist going: 'worst of all, I was wrong' "
It's got little to do with believing in any particular God or religion. It's about the universal concept of a division of society in "the next life" between those who do good to their neighbour and environment and those who do evil. And it's also about searching out and becoming friends with "the true and living God" who may be reaching out to you, and may hate being ignored. A person who chooses to believe some random thing without any evidence is a fool. A wise one will carefully search.
@TheLoonwolf sure he doesn't. I was Christian most of my life and I'm well aware of the struggles even the very faithful have. But keep lying to me if it makes you feel better.
Yah the Pasgels wager(not sure how to spell it XP) is indeed a weak argument. Though its just a christian(or anybody) not giving much a care on the subject because they cant think of anything better to say. Ever since I was little I was built upon christian faith. Throughout my years of trials, I have learned that the LORD is as real as your upper lip. I wish I could say something that would blow your mind but im only 17...I still have much more to learn
Sometimes I lose faith in Jesus.Then I look back at the fact that more than 900 historic events were predicted(in the bible) and have occured. I really wish people wouldnt live in denial,I wish people would rid their pride and give the bible a chance,Because now-a-days.everyone thinks they know whats in the bible and are giving it bad rep. Everyone has twisted everything up...saying God hates gays.saying he is .evil because he created hell....they dont know the half of it.not even a quarter
@Ridikai The bible is not history, we know who wrote most of it. en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Timeline_of_Christianity I recommend you take a look, the bible does not prove itself. There aren't 900 prophecies how about you start reading the list of prophecies. Maybe it will become clear to you
Here's an Argument for you. If there is a god and he accepts only those who believe and have been forgiven. Than what of the rest of the world. Especially good people Example Fred Hollows who persoannly donated his time (YEARS) and persoannly done the surgury restored the vision of 10's of thousands of persons who would otherwise be blind for LIFE at no cost and deemed every man equal despite colour religion or geography. Look him up, If he goes to hell then I your god is infintile and pathetic
i really like this guy :D nice, intelligent video man, keep going, its also entertaining reading some of the stupid things uneducated people say without thinking it through to try and back up their own beliefs.
We need more smart people in the government. America has too many different views and nobody can meet in the middle, people say that soon it will be the death of us all but I beleive our decisions have already made us dig our own grave, and we have asked other countries to push us in and throw the dirt on top. Sorry to get off topic guys! Just thinking that our leaders are so unitelligent thinkers like this goodbyebrov instead of smart DOERS like mysterybox here.
I'm pretty sure Pascal was being sarcastic when he created this philosophy. He was probably being sacrilegious...hopefully.. maybe god guided his hand to create the pascal's triangle as well(sarcasm) lol
@mystrybox as for evidence, i believe in absolute truths and morals, i also believe there is more to love then just a sex drive or drive to preserve the genetic gene pool because of what i have observed. everytime you say you "should" do something ur referring to some kind of standard that everyone should abide by, this is contradictory with your worldview, and if i cant live consistently with my worldview then i should revise what i believe. i think there is more to life then matter and energy.
@goodbyebrov the problem is you can't actually present this "standard" you say exists. However despite what you say my standard can be presented--see my video "Source of Morality."
@goodbyebrov by the way, you state in your post "as for evidence" and then do nothing but state your beliefs. If you think your beliefs are evidence you are very confused.
@goodbyebrov You basically just said a whole bunch of nothing lol. I also studying Rhetoric in college, and I am a believer/non beleiver, I beleive in physics and absolutes. I have high values and morals or (cooths). You basically just went around your ass to get to your elbow for no reason at all.
@mystrybox well the my previous comment was talking about how life has no meaning without God and he said the thing about an eternal universe, i was just saying that either way, if its eternal or not, it has no meaning if God doesn't exist. we dont have any purpose until we apply our own. this purpose revolves around each individual but humanity in general has no purpose. have you ever studied existential philosophy, maybe read the book the Stranger by Alburt Camus. at least he is consistent.
@goodbyebrov do you have any practical point, or are you just interested in rudely dragging other people into philosophical discussions they have no interested or experience with?
@kaybeeEee1983 (part2) ...that also brings up the problem of time. if there has been an infinite amount of time before this point in time then that means we wouldn't exist yet. think of it like this, your standing in a line with an infinite amount of people ahead of you, will you ever get your turn?. im sure you can do some research on the internet on weather science backs the idea of an eternal universe vs a limited universe. either way, without God there is no meaning to life.
@goodbyebrov I like your sum up: "without God there is no meaning to life"... a complete nonsequitor. You're just admitting you're determined to decide "truth" based on what you want to be true rather than what actually is true. Why bother to discuss, you're conclusion is predetermined by your emotional views rather than reality. Go live your life and stop pretending you're open to rational discussion.
@MystryBox you should mention the perverse master, its the best response to pascals wager.
basically the perverse master is a hypothetical god that rewards atheists and punishes theists, so if you believe in a god you go to hell and vice versa.
if the theists says "but thats a ridiculous god!" just reply that its no more ridiuclous than whatever god they themselves believe in.
@humbletim10 I did an original version of this video that included that point but it just ended up being too long so I cut it to the version you see above. But yes that's a very good point. And thanks for the comment :)
@MystryBox You are missing a big point here buddy, goodbyeborv knows the truth based on his faith. Now let me ask you a question, what is the truth for you? that you evolved from the nothing? or that you were put here by Aliens from another planet? Neither of those crazy theories can be factually proven, so Your decision on what truth is is also based on faith, whether you accept it to be this way or not.
@squaredeyeball what is truth for me? To even word the question that way suggests truth might be different for different people and I find that absurd. And no, I don't use faith. I'm perfectly fine with admitting I don't know rather than taking a faith stand.
@kaybeeEee1983 (part1) i never said it wasn't eternal, just chance that everything fit together perfectly to create life and everything else for us to be in existence. however there are already a few problems with this situation. first, if the universe is eternal then by now all the energy within the universe would be background heat (entropy) unless your suggesting an infinite universe which isn't backed by modern science, but if for some reason it is infinite then...
@goodbyebrov those are each large discussions in themselves but there's no need to get into them because of one simple fact: flaws in alternative explanations don't make your explanation true. If you want to convince me of your position you actually have to argue for it. And good luck with that as your position hasn't a shred of evidence.
@MystryBox I met Jesus the other day & he told me he was merely an illusion... It kinda pissed me off! Then I was given a pamphlet by a Christian that told me about the dangers of joining his cult. Then I got so wound up I strapped C4 to myself and blew up an abortion clinic, where I was reborn... Now I try not to think about it, I've become a quantum physisist... I spend my time studying the world of physics where the laws of physics don't apply... LIFES A BITCH! =D
if god is mad at an atheist for not believing in him... how much madder would he be at a christian who shoots off his mouth and makes god look bad? doesn't it say in the bible that god rejoices and the gaining of one lost sheep more than the 99 that were always with him?
Any christian who uses Pascal's wager doesn't understand christianity. If a person is only a christian because they're afraid they might be punished, then it's not true faith, and therefore they won't go to heaven. That's why the whole idea of hell is contrary to christian theology.
@KayBeeEee1983 try reading the whole bible sometime rather than just selected "nice bits." For an example start with Numbers 31 where god commands a people be slaughtered except for the virgin girls who are to be taken as war booty (verses 17-18). Hell is just another in a long list of atrocities from the supposed god in that book.
@MystryBox Notice that I never mentioned the "bible", I used the term "Christian theology". Have you heard of Marcion of Sinope? Or Gnosticism? They believed that the Gods of the Old and New Testaments were 2 different Gods. Are you aware that the bible is divided into Old and New Testament? Do you understand the difference?
@KayBeeEee1983 yes I understand the difference between the OT and NT. If you hold some strange minority view on the subject I don't really care as my audience is those that hold the majority view.
@MystryBox According to Christian theology, humans are made right with God by faith, specifically faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus. If a person is a christian because they're "playing it safe" then it's not faith.
@KayBeeEee1983 I don't dispute that. What I dispute is wimpy"liberal views on the religion... like that god isn't really the sort of monster that hides from you and then throws you in hell for failing to find him. If you're going to believe the nuttiness of the religion, then believe it. Don't play pretend about what the religion is and isn't. And again if you're some wacky minority view I'm really not interested just as I wouldn't be interested in someone who wanted to argue Zeus was real.
@MystryBox Dude. You don't even know who Marcion was or what Gnosticism was. You don't know the religion. You know what your crazy southern baptist relatives tried to teach you.
I don't believe that garbage. It's pretty apparent that Paul was trying to set up a cult.
@KayBeeEee1983 thanks for your comments but as I said I'm not interested in discussing minority views. It's enough wasting my time on the majority view.
Atheism is a contradiction..... To be an atheist means that you don't believe in God. Likewise to be an atheist means you're admitting that there is a god that you don't believe in. Give us a little philosophy lesson on that one...
@MystryBox lol come on give me a philosophical reason why I'm wrong, i finally stumped you. You're trying to push my conclusion onto me... Which you had a valid point about, but had no correlation to the subject.
@DBro222 You're conflating two different uses of the term god to make a false contradiction. Here is your statement again with the two very different uses pointed out:
"To be an atheist means that you don't believe in God [God as an actual being]. Likewise to be an atheist means you're admitting that there is a god [God as a concept] that you don't believe in."
I don't believe in any actual gods that exist in reality. I do believe in the concept of god that exists in people's heads.
"Likewise to be an atheist means you're admitting that there is a god that you don't believe in." This is simply wrong. And oh boy, this is one of the cheapest and most pathetic attempts to come up with an "argument" in the debate on theism/atheism that i have come across so far.
no please just read one of those really great books, like "the end of faith" by Sam Harris or "the god delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It would save people like MystryBox, Blackplatypus or myself a lot of time
@ArayCaramba Read the Bible it will save me a lot of time... Sounds dumb right? Well maybe that's how I feel about your suggestion. Give me a damn example if you have one. I have plenty of arguments to back up my claim.
@DBro222 "to be an atheist means you're admitting that there is a god that you don't believe in."
LOL. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I used to joke that religious people are religious because they lack the ability to reason. I'm starting to think that, for a small portion of religious people, that's actually true.
@DBro222 MystryBox explained it perfectly already (in my opinion). By your logic, 2 people can't even debate the existence of God because any reference to the CONCEPT of God is an admission of his existence. If someone asks me if I believe in God, I have to ignore the question? That's absurd. Am I misunderstanding your argument? You seem to think, like a lot of theists, that atheists deny even the POSSIBILITY that a supreme being could exist.
Lol actually ur kinda right but its because if your becoming a "christian" just in case its not really ginuine. But its probaly just a theist explaning why they don't believe what you believe but voice it in as evidence although if you really want reason to believe their plenty of it out their.
Paschals wager also seems wrong since it would assume God was a moron and He would not see through your bet. He would not be able to see you are just hedging your bets on belief? Paschals wager is wrong on so many levels. MBox is correct and it should not be used, either you believe or you do not.
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, 'He catches the wise in their own craftiness'; and again, 'The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.'" 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
Sometimes I get really tired of this argument and simply reply, "Then your god is a liar, either in genesis or in nature, and should be held accountable for it and I hope you have the balls to stand up to him with me." It tends to be a conversation stopper.
If...then...if... then...if the flood occurred, then geology should support it. See grand canyon, Chilean andes, yucatan penninsula shelf drop, tectonic plate separations forming the continents. GEOLOGY SUPPORTS biblical truth! If the bible is supported as truth, and Jesus in scripture is quoted as saying He is the truth, then by logic and reason believe in Jesus!!! Yay!!!
If...then...if... then...if the flood occurred, then geology should support it. See grand canyon, Chilean andes, yucatan penninsula shelf drop, tectonic plate separations forming the continents. GEOLOGY SUPPORTS biblical truth! If the bible is supported as truth, and Jesus says He is the truth, then by logic and reason believe in Jesus!!! Yay!!!
@mysterybox 2) and as for my worldview i believe In the existence of God so our purpose and my purpose is to chose to have a loving relationship with God and to enjoy his creation and to love one another.
@goodbyebrov and yet no gods are apparent. Your life meaning depends on an assumption (that frankly isn't apparently true). What if your assumption is wrong?
Also my condolences on your empty life... finding no meaning in the REAL observable aspects of life including, friends, family, work, etc. REAL things are where I find meaning because I'm not interested in fantasies of pie in the sky after I die.
@MystryBox I'am a christian. it's not an assumtion, it a belief based on personal experience. but whatever, that not what i wanted to talk about. christians do enjoy family, friends, work ect. check out ecclesiastes. read the whole thing, its not to long.
@setiwoh No, it's a belief based on the assumption that God played a role in your "personal experience".
You are using the term "personal experience" in the context that normally describes actual interactivity. For eg. If I said I know from personal experience that my brother is a good guitarist, it would mean because I've actually seen him play the guitar. You, however have not seen or done anything with god so what about your "personal experience" makes you believe in god?
@frankovich213 i know exactly what you mean. many people mean "personal experience" the way you do. they say things like "i had cancer and then i didn't. it must be God!" this is absurd. while as a Christian i do attribute "miracles" as well as the wonders of science to God,i don't believe you can prove, by any means, the existence of God. I will go on in a second post to explain what i DID mean by "personal experience" in a second post, but that might come later. youtube hates me.
@frankovich213 for one example, by personal experience i mean prayer. when i say prayer, i don't mean "Dear Jesus, bla bla bla" it's more like a conversationwhen i pray, or when i just listen to God. he talks back. not with words, not with my own thoughts which i'am makingup and attributing to him. i believe in evolution, and i promise you i'am not the stereotypical crazy nut of a religious person.
I can go talk to people right now who will tell me that they have "personal experiences" of being abducted by aliens. I can find "personal experiences" for any given religion. I doubt you'd believe me about my experience riding a t-rex.
Revelation is necessarily first person. give me something confirmable.
@MystryBox Everyone makes assumptions about something before they state what they believe. By claiming atheism you have already made the assumption that there is no God because without that assumption you wouldn't have any basis for secular beliefs.
@MystryBox There are many ideas and thought processes that go into the category of "secular beliefs" one of them being atheism which you have stated yourself to be. By saying that someone is wrong because they make an assumption there is a God you are making yourself a hypocrite because you have based your belief on the assumption there is no God.
@VarsitySmurf it's almost funny when someone lectures me on what they know little about. Here are some clues for you:
Atheism (i.e. a-theism, non-theism) is not a belief system, it's a lack of a belief system (specifically theism). I'm an atheist merely because I'm not a theist, not because I have any particular "atheist beliefs." In particular to your comment I don't claim there are no gods. I don't know if there are any gods but I don't believe in any there are none apparent.
@MystryBox Not apparent? Look at nature. Look at your pets (if you have any). Look at your loved ones. Look at yourself. How do you logically believe that there isn't a God who created all of this?
@VarsitySmurf yes, not apparent. See my video "Are Atheists Blind, Stupid or What?" for my reply to your comment. Try to answer the question at the end of the video and you'll discover which of our views actually matches reality.
@MystryBox As for the "lack of a belief system" statement you made, how can that be? By believing there is no God (or none apparent as you said) how do you live your life? You must get up in the morning and believe that the material world is all there is so you're going to further your life to the furthest of your capability. Isn't that right?
@VarsitySmurf atheism doesn't describe what I am, it describes what I'm not. It is the lack of a belief system (specifically theism). That doesn't mean I don't have positive beliefs... I do. I'm a naturalist and a bright. I have a naturalistic worldview free of supernatural and mystical elements. My ethics and actions are based on this naturalistic worldview.
@mysterybox 1) im not saying that meaning must come from outside myself because of my religious views. im saying it because its the truth, even Atheist Albert Camus recognized it and he realized that life is absurd. at least he is being consistent. how can something that was the result of chance be the source of meaning? we are just an accident in your worldview so we aren't here on purpose.
@goodbyebrov I like your raw assertions of truth. Very convincing. Should I do that... simply declare my position truth? Would you find that convincing?
Also we're not the result of accident, we're the result of design (however it's not intelligent design it's natural design).
@mysertybox 2) so if originally we have no meaning then that means we have no purpose which means a good person could be hitler or Einstein or someone that blows people to bits. nobody is more "good" then anyone else if ultimately we have no purpose. so to say you have a purpose without believing in God is a contradiction to your own beliefs. simply making your own meaning doesn't make you right. so stop trying to add meaning where there is none.
@goodbyebrov I'm not going to respond to your absurd "Hitler" comparisons as morality is a totally different subject. If you want to talk about morality please see my video I've referenced three times now "source of morality?" which can be easily found with a youtube search on the title and my id.
@mysertybox 1) you said that morality and the meaning to life is two separate things. i disagree, they go hand in hand. to ask the question if you are a good person(morals) then you have to ask what is your purpose. when you apply your own meaning, again, you recognize that there is originally no meaning.
@goodbyebrov we'll have to disagree on that. Morality and meaning of life are different things in my view. Again you state that your own meaning is no meaning, this is nonsensical and simply comes from you view that meaning must come from outside of yourself since that is where you take your lead from due to your religious views. Not everyone is like you.
@goodbyebrov perhaps you could take a break from lecturing me how meaning must be and tell us all how your life has meaning. Sitting in heaven for all eternity paying tribute to the ego of an all powerful being sounds like such an awesome purpose. Tell us about it.
@mysterybox 2) so if there was an ultimate meaning to life then we wouldn't need to apply meaning, right? so when you apply your own meaning then you recognize that there is no meaning to begin with so in reality life is absurd. you are being intellectually inconsistent when you don't believe in God but live as if you have a purpose.
I never argue with un-educated people.
Snookerallan 1 week ago
@Snookerallan if you're implying people that make pascal's wager aren't educated you are wrong. A lot of very educated people mistakenly think this is a good argument (including Pascal himself).
MystryBox 1 week ago
"but then that would find the most demonic and evil god
that anyone's ever imagined, and have you follow that guy"
*Christian God says I will be tortured horrifically forever because I reject his mythology.
**I think we found that guy.
Also, the perceived persuasiveness of the wager perhaps speaks to our own cognitive biases as a species. No creation of a perfect being would have cognitive blindspots of that sort. But imperfect products of imperfect evolution would. Guess which one we must be!
philippides 6 days ago
@philippides We most likely created god so maybe we deserve more credit than that. Unless creating god isn't that big a deal...
MystryBox 6 days ago
Pascal's Wager is, indeed, stupid. As stupid as you'd have to expect the god with which you are hedging your bets to be. The belief wouldn't be genuine. I couldn't possibly pretend to believe because I simply don't. I may fool other humans but I don't think I could fool the "almighty creator" on the "day of judgement."
In my opinion, better to stick with what you really do or don't believe and hope that, if there is a god, that he respects you sticking to your guns.
jemmerx 1 week ago
Comment removed
mikelheron20 1 month ago
True. As you said, the "believe just in case" fails because of OTHER religions with other hells and other punishments.
And to that I add: the "if I am wrong I loose nothing and if you are wrong you loose everything" also does not work because if the believer is wrong he DOES loose. He looses all the money spent on tithes (money that he could have used in quality of life) he looses the sleep on sunday mornings, he looses friendships with the nonbelievers that he shuns... he looses much of life
caralhoman 1 month ago
Pascal's Wager wasn't even "invented" by Pascal. Protagoras, the pre-Socratic (c. 490 - 420 B.C.) philosopher and others came up with it - or something extremely similar centuries before Pascal. Voltaire called it "indecent and childish". It's almost embarrassing to hear so-called intelligent people still trotting it out as if it were something clever. It's nearly as daft as Anselm's "ontological argument" - which has recently been dusted off and repackaged but remains juvenile garbage.
mikelheron20 1 month ago
@mikelheron20 it's a very powerful seeming argument for people that already believe. That's why it's so common. It needs to be explained simply to people why it's such a bad argument because the fact is most people out there think it's a good argument.
MystryBox 1 month ago
@MystryBox It relies on convincing god of something that is untrue. A moment's reflection exposes it as nonsense. Also, why would god expect you to pretend to believe? It's like making a promise with your fingers crossed behind your back. Unfortunately, in this case, God can see your fingers. The absurdity of it all makes my head spin. It's illogical and immoral.
mikelheron20 1 month ago
I think the best way to deal with this silly argument is that one cannot make themselves believe in god no more than one can make themselves believe in the Easter Bunny. You can't force someone to believe just because you think it's in their best interest. As Michael Shermer has said, " I hope there's an afterlife and I hope I'm going, but it doesn't make it true"
mbluemyst 1 month ago
@mbluemyst I tried it once. I kept repeating: "I do believe in god. I do believe in god. I do, I do, I do believe in god." And you know what happened? - Nothing. Nothing apart from an unexpected manifestation of the Easter Bunny that is. Weird or what!
mikelheron20 1 month ago
@mikelheron20 LOL!
mbluemyst 1 month ago
Listening to theists attempt to put down atheist is frustrating at times.
me25422 1 month ago
I am sure all of you believe in light and sound right? well can you prove light and sound to a blind and deaf person? Do you think it is logical for a blind/deaf person to say: "There is no such thing as light or sound"...? You cannot prove it to them no matter what you do... you can beam a radar in their pupil, blast a stereo in their ears, preach the bible all day long, hoping they'll just accept it because YOU know that it's the truth. Well you people aren't being logical then, are you?
chromeninjar3d 1 month ago
@chromeninjar3d light and heat go together.. focusing light into a laser that can burn would get a blind person's attention and belief pretty quickly. Sound and vibration go together. Sit a deaf person on a subwoofer and they can feel the vibrations of the music. It's how a lot of schools introduce deaf people to the concepts of music. and by the way: Radar is radio waves. Most of us would never be aware that an active RADAR is being used i the vicinity.
ChristopherEHealy 1 month ago
@ChristopherEHealy "sound and vibration go together".No, Sound IS vibration, but 'SOUND' is [our response] to the different frequencies, and without this capability of a response, it would just be baseless vibrations. Light and heat go together? Light is photons, Heat is the energy, which follows the same principle of sound (vibrations). This is why you can heat a glass till it breaks as much as you can scream the right pitch and break it. It is all expanding energy. Also Interchangeable
chromeninjar3d 1 month ago
wait... how is "Just in case" a weak argument? Check the stove "Just in case" you left it on, fill up the bottles "Just in case" the water stops running t'morrow, At least half way accept God "Just in case" I'm actually right, Check your work "Just in case" you missed a problem and might not get the grade you need to pass, delete this video "Just in case" judgment day may ACTUALLY come.. As far as I'm concerned, "Just in case" is one of the stronger things to say... i don't see why it's 'weak'?
chromeninjar3d 1 month ago
@chromeninjar3d "Just in case" you are wrong - in this instance is a very weak argument. It is weak because those who say it as a reason why someone should support Christianity, could be equally as wrong about their religion - what if Christian God doesn't exist, but the Muslim one does, or the Jewish one, or the Juju at the bottom of the Sea, or Zeus, or Egyptian Gods, or Native American Gods. They are no less or more likely to be wrong than the Christian God.So why join Christ?
fatheranthony4pope 1 month ago
@fatheranthony4pope I did not say that "just in case" is a reason why you all should support Christianity. I said that Just in case Is a strong Argument to end Atheism. Because Atheism is the belief that there isn't a single god, diety, neither should be worship anything deemed superior, which essentially is Atheism against the world of believers (of any type of God). Therefore the "Just in case" argument works for all religions against Atheism. I can explain Christianity to you if you'd like.
chromeninjar3d 1 month ago
Even if God buys into this covering-your-ass thing, it still fails to provide a reason to believe in your God over any other. An Islamic God may send you to hell, or maybe even the existence of a perverse God may be true that only sends atheists to heaven.
The issues with the Pascal's Wager is evident. It's not a convincing argument, so it may be a good idea for theists to revise their reasons in favour of their position.
RatherCynical 1 month ago
A false belief can lead to bad decisions, causing harm (e.g. discrimination, reliance on faith healing, misogyny, oppression of homosexuals, opposition of science and medical advancements, etc.)
It neglects that not actually believing is hypocritical, and since God is omniscient, he'd detect that and not buy into it.
RatherCynical 1 month ago
Pascal's Wager fails in multiple ways;
It's not a negligible/insignificant cost incurred to falsely believe, regardless of whether or not it's finite. The money and time expended accounts for up to 15% of one's income, and much of one's time (I cannot assert a specific amount of time as it's so subjective). It's significant if it's our one and only life on Earth.
RatherCynical 1 month ago
wait, LOL i thought this was an argument for athiests to use on christians.. i don't spend every day of my life praying and going to church...so if it turns out god isn't real (which he isn't) but, wouldn't they have wasted much of their life?
LoluskPoo 1 month ago
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Steriomind 1 month ago
another problems with pascals wager is that belief is not free, it is quite expensive
in fact it is so expensive that even if god was real there is no obvious choice.
deltaxcd 2 months ago
@deltaxcd true. Even in the story of Adam and Eve they knew god was real and chose to disobey (Cain too).
MystryBox 2 months ago
*starts rubbing my tummy*
mattiassollerman 2 months ago
I'm a christian and I do believe in god. I dont tell them that they should worship him I just think that people have a right to choose what they believe in and we all have our paths, for mine its an act of faith and I respect other people
MRchurch100 2 months ago 4
@MRchurch100 I'm more concerned with what is true than that people can choose to believe what they want. And note there is a big difference between respecting other people and respecting their beliefs. People get respect by default, beliefs do not. I don't question people in my videos, I question beliefs--beliefs often not worthy of respect.
MystryBox 2 months ago
@MystryBox but neither side can be proven or disproven so who are you to say what beliefs deserve respect ? you dont know anymore that any of us know were all in the same boat respect other beliefs you can learn from them instead of just dismissing as anyone who disagrees as silly
flolikeasinkbro 1 month ago
@flolikeasinkbro sorry you're wrong on several fronts. First the position of god existing can be proven: one way is to simply present this being you claim exists. Secondly simply because a position might not be provable does not make it worthy of respect. Many of my videos discuss the question of faith and whether or not it is worthy of respect--I think it's not.
MystryBox 1 month ago
@MystryBox It's also important to note that belief is not actually a choice - it's a compulsion on the basis of whether a person can agree on the truth value of a particular claim. The truth doesn't require one's approval to be true.
Since I sit on the outside, I see religion as harmful in all honesty. :|
RatherCynical 1 month ago
@MRchurch100 But you still think anyone who isn't Christian or has accepted god or the lord into their heart in some way is going to hell, do you not?
meehalee21 1 month ago
@MRchurch100 Like most Christians you don't know much about your own religion.Where in the New Testament does it say anything remotely like "believe whatever you like - find your own path".Jesus is pretty clear."No one comes to the Father but through me". And what if you don't take up his offer? " In Matthew 25:41,we read that we will be told "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE" Jesus just aint the cuddly liberal you want him to be.
mikelheron20 1 month ago
@MRchurch100 If you saw me about to fill my car with petrol while smoking a cigarette I'm guessing you would point out the danger. But you're quite content to let me choose my own path without seeking to influence my decision even though it may lead, in Christian terms, to eternal damnation. If I believed what Christians claim to believe I would spend every spare moment trying to save non-believers from their fate. Makes me wonder how sincere Christians are about what they claim to believe.
mikelheron20 1 month ago
@mikelheron20 you dont understand what I'm trying to get at, I do tell people about christianity. but I dont push it in their faces, I'm the only one in my house who is a christian. I found my faith alone and by myself, I'm just different I gues, I'd just like to respect peoples wishes and what they choose to believe in, and also I would of thought you'd be smart enough to fill up your car without smoking lol
MRchurch100 1 month ago
@mikelheron20 I'm not the best christian, but I like helping others and I like to respect others, and I respect your point and you're probably right. I'm just trying to be the best person I can be just like everyone else, christian or not
MRchurch100 1 month ago
@MRchurch100 I am atheist but do the same thing about trying to be a good person and stay out of trouble, of course, without the worry of a sinister god that will burn me forever for not kissing his arse.
CerebrumPedere 1 month ago
watch this video
watch?v=m9SG6EA_5_E
watch?v=19fW5jJAQnk&feature=related
watch?v=uuK_4BUj7Z0
watch?v=KaFdgPCEFLc
watch?v=D1JsNH_Grrk
ThePero20111 3 months ago
Religion was created to control the behavior of man kind!!!
GUALLACOL 3 months ago
@GUALLACOL truth
hampstershat123 2 months ago
I love your reasoning, but I hate your photographic awareness...!!! You are squatting down at the bottom of the screen like some humpty dumpty who fell off the wall. I keep wanting to crane my neck to peer over the edge of my screen to see you properly. Please... lower your camera and lift your head up the screen. You're ''lurking''. But, otherwise... good stuff and no real offense meant.
USERNAMEfieldempty 3 months ago
I see books in the back, sir.
From the way you speak, it seems to me like you've read them.
Ebvardh 4 months ago
the powers just live off of us vicariously and direct our thoughts and actions according to their will, and beleive me the shit works 'cause of all the sci-fy shit that's actually real that we think is decades off and we pay them to torment us and vote for them to rub it in our face because we are so programmed to not be able to attain it or be able to handle it, they are organized and empowered and so, yeah, god exists, it's a collective effort. That's what we get for believing any of it...
whereverthere 4 months ago
your iPhone will automatically lose its meaning when they release the next one, or when they drop a nuke, so will your Audi, so will your Bible, scroll, according to the church of planned obsolescence. they have already made this world obsolete right along with all the humanity that can be flushed down the drain, and if you don't beleive me, ask yourself why you want these things so badly? Once you've obtained what you desire, it becomes meaningless, and that's true in all things to some degree.
whereverthere 4 months ago
it comes down to he power of beleif, and that is psychology in essence, the consciousness has its own circus, and we are all clowns in the circus trying to establish and engage the audience to watch, and you can't control an audience unless the whole audience agrees with what's being presented. Like magic, you wouldn't go if you were not intrigued, suspend some disbelief or deny some belief, half empty half full. this society always leaves one feeling empty because it's shallow and meaningless
whereverthere 4 months ago
True. This is a bad argument. I'm not promoting that people join a religion, or promoting that people not join 1. But someone can't rationally say: you should worship a god, because "he" might come + punish you, after death, for not believing in him. It's hard to promote: protect yourself from things not proven to exist in the physical world. It's like saying: keep garlic under your bed, "just in case" a vampire tries to bite you while you sleep. [ I don't believe in V(s), BTW ].
theaterrabbit 4 months ago
" what if there is an after life, but only for non believers " - David Mitchel
echoplextic 5 months ago
This is one of my favorite:
If adam and eve have intercourse and produce children. Then what?
The children cant have sex with each other, that would be incest.
The children are also males. So eve and a couple male offspring create the population of multiple genetic variations of humans.
SillyTickles 5 months ago
@SillyTickles and that's hardly the most troubling aspect of that story... the talking snake and magic fruit is pretty difficult to swallow too.
MystryBox 5 months ago 6
@MystryBox "difficult to swallow" I see what you did there.
TimelyPineapple 3 months ago
You didn't even mention the fact that you can't just decide to believe something, at least I can't anyway. I believe what I think is most likely to be true. I can't just believe something because of a threat.
AThagoras 5 months ago
@AThagoras good point. Yeah there's a lot of things I didn't mention--this is just a really really bad argument.
MystryBox 5 months ago
i dig your sh*t, homie...!!!
vainwolf78 5 months ago
That isn't an argument that's just a rhetorical question
NoneShaltPass 5 months ago
Christians don't argue, they just sit there talking baout the soul and how Jesus will save you and blah blah blah blah blah.
Dandramere 5 months ago
Christians don't argue, they just sit there talking baout the soul and how Jesus will save you and blah blah blah blah blah.
Dandramere 5 months ago
Pardon me, I meant to say Pascal's wager is a terrible arguement.
MagnusCattus 5 months ago
@MagnusCattus I'm glad we agree on something.
MystryBox 5 months ago
I surely do claim that I have found sound reasons to beleive God exists, so take it from me, Pascel's wager is a arguement. Instead of refuting a lack of evidence pointing toward god not existing, it implies that God might exist therefore he should be worshiped as to not offend him. This idea makes God out to be a simpleton incapable of seeing through such a rues, surely even antheist can see that.
MagnusCattus 5 months ago
Well said bro, I have this discussion with my Dad from time to time (it's his favourite argument for believing) and challenge him as to why he doesn't lose much sleep over whether or not he should convert to Islam. After all, they got the full revelation, Jesus was just a prophet, right? ;)
murdochthecat 6 months ago
That is very well put. You manage to sum up my feelings on the Wager argument and put them into words much better than I ever could.
FrankLightheart 6 months ago
Ahh!!! I love the way you explain things. You never act rude, but you make your point. Must....Click....Subscribe.
SarahTheAtheist 6 months ago
@SarahTheAtheist thanks for the kind words :)
MystryBox 6 months ago
Best answer to Pascal's Wager is def from David Mitchell on QI: "what if there's a third option, and there is an afterlife but you only get to go to it if you're an atheist. All the christians, dead. And you get all the bitter atheist going: 'worst of all, I was wrong' "
WitteTroost 6 months ago 2
@WitteTroost that's certainly just as valid as the Christian view of an afterlife.
MystryBox 6 months ago
It's got little to do with believing in any particular God or religion. It's about the universal concept of a division of society in "the next life" between those who do good to their neighbour and environment and those who do evil. And it's also about searching out and becoming friends with "the true and living God" who may be reaching out to you, and may hate being ignored. A person who chooses to believe some random thing without any evidence is a fool. A wise one will carefully search.
TheLoonwolf 6 months ago
@TheLoonwolf I'm not hiding. If there's a god it's him who is hiding.
MystryBox 6 months ago
@MystryBox He doesn't hide from from me, nor from anyone else, except those who refuse to believe - he gives them exactly what they want!
TheLoonwolf 6 months ago
@TheLoonwolf sure he doesn't. I was Christian most of my life and I'm well aware of the struggles even the very faithful have. But keep lying to me if it makes you feel better.
MystryBox 6 months ago
@MystryBox Keep believing I'm a liar if that makes you feel better. :)
TheLoonwolf 6 months ago
@MystryBox Pascal's Wager = Argument from Ignorance. Enough Said.
911assassinate 6 months ago
Yah the Pasgels wager(not sure how to spell it XP) is indeed a weak argument. Though its just a christian(or anybody) not giving much a care on the subject because they cant think of anything better to say. Ever since I was little I was built upon christian faith. Throughout my years of trials, I have learned that the LORD is as real as your upper lip. I wish I could say something that would blow your mind but im only 17...I still have much more to learn
Ridikai 6 months ago
Sometimes I lose faith in Jesus.Then I look back at the fact that more than 900 historic events were predicted(in the bible) and have occured. I really wish people wouldnt live in denial,I wish people would rid their pride and give the bible a chance,Because now-a-days.everyone thinks they know whats in the bible and are giving it bad rep. Everyone has twisted everything up...saying God hates gays.saying he is .evil because he created hell....they dont know the half of it.not even a quarter
Ridikai 6 months ago
@Ridikai see my video "Does Prophecy Prove Christianity?" for my response to the claim Jesus supposedly fulfilled various predictions in the bible.
MystryBox 6 months ago
@Ridikai There aren't 900 historic proofs. That's nonsense... In the same way a muslim would lie to muslims.
iliveon 6 months ago
@iliveon Anybody can say there isnt. Its kinda wierd how everyone thinks they know what the bible says. I reccomend you stay quiet.
Ridikai 6 months ago
@Ridikai The bible is not history, we know who wrote most of it. en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Timeline_of_Christianity I recommend you take a look, the bible does not prove itself. There aren't 900 prophecies how about you start reading the list of prophecies. Maybe it will become clear to you
iliveon 6 months ago
Here's an Argument for you. If there is a god and he accepts only those who believe and have been forgiven. Than what of the rest of the world. Especially good people Example Fred Hollows who persoannly donated his time (YEARS) and persoannly done the surgury restored the vision of 10's of thousands of persons who would otherwise be blind for LIFE at no cost and deemed every man equal despite colour religion or geography. Look him up, If he goes to hell then I your god is infintile and pathetic
tangles01 6 months ago
Nicely done - thanx for sharing!
guitarbastrd 7 months ago
i'd join your cult, you're smart and charming and handsome... kinda like the jesus... lol
redtsika 7 months ago
@redtsika Cult?
InFlamesAddictive 7 months ago
i really like this guy :D nice, intelligent video man, keep going, its also entertaining reading some of the stupid things uneducated people say without thinking it through to try and back up their own beliefs.
HalfAPixel 7 months ago
We need more smart people in the government. America has too many different views and nobody can meet in the middle, people say that soon it will be the death of us all but I beleive our decisions have already made us dig our own grave, and we have asked other countries to push us in and throw the dirt on top. Sorry to get off topic guys! Just thinking that our leaders are so unitelligent thinkers like this goodbyebrov instead of smart DOERS like mysterybox here.
Jglemons 8 months ago
Good shit bro. keep pushing and the smart people will be liberated and people will live better we jsut need more guys like you :)
revelation1234 8 months ago
I'm pretty sure Pascal was being sarcastic when he created this philosophy. He was probably being sacrilegious...hopefully.. maybe god guided his hand to create the pascal's triangle as well(sarcasm) lol
kpgpwi64 8 months ago
i like your stuff man very logical
joshelderkin123 9 months ago
Best answe is searching I've converted every religion just in case on youtube.
kemalcs 9 months ago
I like you, man, and subscribed to you!
dilemmix 9 months ago
@mystrybox as for evidence, i believe in absolute truths and morals, i also believe there is more to love then just a sex drive or drive to preserve the genetic gene pool because of what i have observed. everytime you say you "should" do something ur referring to some kind of standard that everyone should abide by, this is contradictory with your worldview, and if i cant live consistently with my worldview then i should revise what i believe. i think there is more to life then matter and energy.
goodbyebrov 9 months ago
@goodbyebrov the problem is you can't actually present this "standard" you say exists. However despite what you say my standard can be presented--see my video "Source of Morality."
MystryBox 9 months ago 2
@goodbyebrov by the way, you state in your post "as for evidence" and then do nothing but state your beliefs. If you think your beliefs are evidence you are very confused.
MystryBox 9 months ago 9
@MystryBox finally someone with a brain.
Minecrafterhardcore 8 months ago
@goodbyebrov You basically just said a whole bunch of nothing lol. I also studying Rhetoric in college, and I am a believer/non beleiver, I beleive in physics and absolutes. I have high values and morals or (cooths). You basically just went around your ass to get to your elbow for no reason at all.
Jglemons 8 months ago
@mystrybox well the my previous comment was talking about how life has no meaning without God and he said the thing about an eternal universe, i was just saying that either way, if its eternal or not, it has no meaning if God doesn't exist. we dont have any purpose until we apply our own. this purpose revolves around each individual but humanity in general has no purpose. have you ever studied existential philosophy, maybe read the book the Stranger by Alburt Camus. at least he is consistent.
goodbyebrov 9 months ago
@goodbyebrov do you have any practical point, or are you just interested in rudely dragging other people into philosophical discussions they have no interested or experience with?
MystryBox 9 months ago
@kaybeeEee1983 (part2) ...that also brings up the problem of time. if there has been an infinite amount of time before this point in time then that means we wouldn't exist yet. think of it like this, your standing in a line with an infinite amount of people ahead of you, will you ever get your turn?. im sure you can do some research on the internet on weather science backs the idea of an eternal universe vs a limited universe. either way, without God there is no meaning to life.
goodbyebrov 9 months ago
@goodbyebrov I like your sum up: "without God there is no meaning to life"... a complete nonsequitor. You're just admitting you're determined to decide "truth" based on what you want to be true rather than what actually is true. Why bother to discuss, you're conclusion is predetermined by your emotional views rather than reality. Go live your life and stop pretending you're open to rational discussion.
MystryBox 9 months ago 14
@MystryBox you should mention the perverse master, its the best response to pascals wager.
basically the perverse master is a hypothetical god that rewards atheists and punishes theists, so if you believe in a god you go to hell and vice versa.
if the theists says "but thats a ridiculous god!" just reply that its no more ridiuclous than whatever god they themselves believe in.
great vid btw :)
humbletim10 5 months ago
@humbletim10 I did an original version of this video that included that point but it just ended up being too long so I cut it to the version you see above. But yes that's a very good point. And thanks for the comment :)
MystryBox 5 months ago
@MystryBox You are missing a big point here buddy, goodbyeborv knows the truth based on his faith. Now let me ask you a question, what is the truth for you? that you evolved from the nothing? or that you were put here by Aliens from another planet? Neither of those crazy theories can be factually proven, so Your decision on what truth is is also based on faith, whether you accept it to be this way or not.
squaredeyeball 3 months ago
@squaredeyeball what is truth for me? To even word the question that way suggests truth might be different for different people and I find that absurd. And no, I don't use faith. I'm perfectly fine with admitting I don't know rather than taking a faith stand.
MystryBox 3 months ago
@goodbyebrov you need to accept that your life is built on a massive lie and start getting on with your life
eternalcrumpet 9 months ago
@kaybeeEee1983 (part1) i never said it wasn't eternal, just chance that everything fit together perfectly to create life and everything else for us to be in existence. however there are already a few problems with this situation. first, if the universe is eternal then by now all the energy within the universe would be background heat (entropy) unless your suggesting an infinite universe which isn't backed by modern science, but if for some reason it is infinite then...
goodbyebrov 9 months ago
@goodbyebrov those are each large discussions in themselves but there's no need to get into them because of one simple fact: flaws in alternative explanations don't make your explanation true. If you want to convince me of your position you actually have to argue for it. And good luck with that as your position hasn't a shred of evidence.
MystryBox 9 months ago
What if there is a Christian heaven but only Athiests get to go there?
MrLittletomdj 9 months ago
@MrLittletomdj yea, then everyone gets to be unhappy.
MystryBox 9 months ago
@MystryBox I met Jesus the other day & he told me he was merely an illusion... It kinda pissed me off! Then I was given a pamphlet by a Christian that told me about the dangers of joining his cult. Then I got so wound up I strapped C4 to myself and blew up an abortion clinic, where I was reborn... Now I try not to think about it, I've become a quantum physisist... I spend my time studying the world of physics where the laws of physics don't apply... LIFES A BITCH! =D
MrLittletomdj 9 months ago
if god is mad at an atheist for not believing in him... how much madder would he be at a christian who shoots off his mouth and makes god look bad? doesn't it say in the bible that god rejoices and the gaining of one lost sheep more than the 99 that were always with him?
Rustystud 9 months ago
Any christian who uses Pascal's wager doesn't understand christianity. If a person is only a christian because they're afraid they might be punished, then it's not true faith, and therefore they won't go to heaven. That's why the whole idea of hell is contrary to christian theology.
KayBeeEee1983 9 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 try reading the whole bible sometime rather than just selected "nice bits." For an example start with Numbers 31 where god commands a people be slaughtered except for the virgin girls who are to be taken as war booty (verses 17-18). Hell is just another in a long list of atrocities from the supposed god in that book.
MystryBox 9 months ago
@MystryBox Notice that I never mentioned the "bible", I used the term "Christian theology". Have you heard of Marcion of Sinope? Or Gnosticism? They believed that the Gods of the Old and New Testaments were 2 different Gods. Are you aware that the bible is divided into Old and New Testament? Do you understand the difference?
KayBeeEee1983 9 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 yes I understand the difference between the OT and NT. If you hold some strange minority view on the subject I don't really care as my audience is those that hold the majority view.
MystryBox 9 months ago
@MystryBox According to Christian theology, humans are made right with God by faith, specifically faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus. If a person is a christian because they're "playing it safe" then it's not faith.
KayBeeEee1983 9 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 I don't dispute that. What I dispute is wimpy"liberal views on the religion... like that god isn't really the sort of monster that hides from you and then throws you in hell for failing to find him. If you're going to believe the nuttiness of the religion, then believe it. Don't play pretend about what the religion is and isn't. And again if you're some wacky minority view I'm really not interested just as I wouldn't be interested in someone who wanted to argue Zeus was real.
MystryBox 9 months ago
@MystryBox Dude. You don't even know who Marcion was or what Gnosticism was. You don't know the religion. You know what your crazy southern baptist relatives tried to teach you.
I don't believe that garbage. It's pretty apparent that Paul was trying to set up a cult.
KayBeeEee1983 9 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 thanks for your comments but as I said I'm not interested in discussing minority views. It's enough wasting my time on the majority view.
MystryBox 9 months ago
Atheism is a contradiction..... To be an atheist means that you don't believe in God. Likewise to be an atheist means you're admitting that there is a god that you don't believe in. Give us a little philosophy lesson on that one...
DBro222 10 months ago
@DBro222 how about you explain why your disbelief in Santa Claus isn't the same contradiction. Doing that might help you figure out your error...
MystryBox 10 months ago
@MystryBox Who the hell said it wasn't the same contradiction? It is. I'm contradicting myself with Santa Claus while you are with God.
DBro222 9 months ago
@DBro222 well if you think you face a contradiction in your disbelief of Santa... you're too confused for me to be able to help. Best to you.
MystryBox 9 months ago
@MystryBox lol come on give me a philosophical reason why I'm wrong, i finally stumped you. You're trying to push my conclusion onto me... Which you had a valid point about, but had no correlation to the subject.
DBro222 9 months ago
@DBro222 You're conflating two different uses of the term god to make a false contradiction. Here is your statement again with the two very different uses pointed out:
"To be an atheist means that you don't believe in God [God as an actual being]. Likewise to be an atheist means you're admitting that there is a god [God as a concept] that you don't believe in."
I don't believe in any actual gods that exist in reality. I do believe in the concept of god that exists in people's heads.
MystryBox 9 months ago
@DBro222
"Likewise to be an atheist means you're admitting that there is a god that you don't believe in." This is simply wrong. And oh boy, this is one of the cheapest and most pathetic attempts to come up with an "argument" in the debate on theism/atheism that i have come across so far.
ArayCaramba 9 months ago
@ArayCaramba Prove me wrong with an example...
DBro222 9 months ago
@DBro222
no please just read one of those really great books, like "the end of faith" by Sam Harris or "the god delusion" by Richard Dawkins. It would save people like MystryBox, Blackplatypus or myself a lot of time
ArayCaramba 9 months ago
@ArayCaramba Read the Bible it will save me a lot of time... Sounds dumb right? Well maybe that's how I feel about your suggestion. Give me a damn example if you have one. I have plenty of arguments to back up my claim.
DBro222 9 months ago
@DBro222 "to be an atheist means you're admitting that there is a god that you don't believe in."
LOL. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I used to joke that religious people are religious because they lack the ability to reason. I'm starting to think that, for a small portion of religious people, that's actually true.
KayBeeEee1983 9 months ago
@KayBeeEee1983 prove me wrong with an example like none of your little friends can do
DBro222 9 months ago
@DBro222 MystryBox explained it perfectly already (in my opinion). By your logic, 2 people can't even debate the existence of God because any reference to the CONCEPT of God is an admission of his existence. If someone asks me if I believe in God, I have to ignore the question? That's absurd. Am I misunderstanding your argument? You seem to think, like a lot of theists, that atheists deny even the POSSIBILITY that a supreme being could exist.
KayBeeEee1983 9 months ago
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I believe in all the Gods, just in case.
dan4boi 10 months ago
Lol actually ur kinda right but its because if your becoming a "christian" just in case its not really ginuine. But its probaly just a theist explaning why they don't believe what you believe but voice it in as evidence although if you really want reason to believe their plenty of it out their.
Bycoon 10 months ago
Paschals wager also seems wrong since it would assume God was a moron and He would not see through your bet. He would not be able to see you are just hedging your bets on belief? Paschals wager is wrong on so many levels. MBox is correct and it should not be used, either you believe or you do not.
jfrontier1 10 months ago
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"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, 'He catches the wise in their own craftiness'; and again, 'The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.'" 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
monkeyhead360 11 months ago
Sometimes I get really tired of this argument and simply reply, "Then your god is a liar, either in genesis or in nature, and should be held accountable for it and I hope you have the balls to stand up to him with me." It tends to be a conversation stopper.
TheEmpiricalTruth 11 months ago
If...then...if... then...if the flood occurred, then geology should support it. See grand canyon, Chilean andes, yucatan penninsula shelf drop, tectonic plate separations forming the continents. GEOLOGY SUPPORTS biblical truth! If the bible is supported as truth, and Jesus in scripture is quoted as saying He is the truth, then by logic and reason believe in Jesus!!! Yay!!!
crashinaluscombe 11 months ago
If...then...if... then...if the flood occurred, then geology should support it. See grand canyon, Chilean andes, yucatan penninsula shelf drop, tectonic plate separations forming the continents. GEOLOGY SUPPORTS biblical truth! If the bible is supported as truth, and Jesus says He is the truth, then by logic and reason believe in Jesus!!! Yay!!!
crashinaluscombe 11 months ago
@mysterybox 2) and as for my worldview i believe In the existence of God so our purpose and my purpose is to chose to have a loving relationship with God and to enjoy his creation and to love one another.
goodbyebrov 1 year ago
@goodbyebrov and yet no gods are apparent. Your life meaning depends on an assumption (that frankly isn't apparently true). What if your assumption is wrong?
Also my condolences on your empty life... finding no meaning in the REAL observable aspects of life including, friends, family, work, etc. REAL things are where I find meaning because I'm not interested in fantasies of pie in the sky after I die.
MystryBox 1 year ago
@MystryBox I'am a christian. it's not an assumtion, it a belief based on personal experience. but whatever, that not what i wanted to talk about. christians do enjoy family, friends, work ect. check out ecclesiastes. read the whole thing, its not to long.
setiwoh 11 months ago
@setiwoh No, it's a belief based on the assumption that God played a role in your "personal experience".
You are using the term "personal experience" in the context that normally describes actual interactivity. For eg. If I said I know from personal experience that my brother is a good guitarist, it would mean because I've actually seen him play the guitar. You, however have not seen or done anything with god so what about your "personal experience" makes you believe in god?
frankovich213 10 months ago
@frankovich213 i know exactly what you mean. many people mean "personal experience" the way you do. they say things like "i had cancer and then i didn't. it must be God!" this is absurd. while as a Christian i do attribute "miracles" as well as the wonders of science to God,i don't believe you can prove, by any means, the existence of God. I will go on in a second post to explain what i DID mean by "personal experience" in a second post, but that might come later. youtube hates me.
setiwoh 10 months ago
@frankovich213 for one example, by personal experience i mean prayer. when i say prayer, i don't mean "Dear Jesus, bla bla bla" it's more like a conversationwhen i pray, or when i just listen to God. he talks back. not with words, not with my own thoughts which i'am makingup and attributing to him. i believe in evolution, and i promise you i'am not the stereotypical crazy nut of a religious person.
setiwoh 10 months ago
@setiwoh
I can go talk to people right now who will tell me that they have "personal experiences" of being abducted by aliens. I can find "personal experiences" for any given religion. I doubt you'd believe me about my experience riding a t-rex.
Revelation is necessarily first person. give me something confirmable.
blackplatypus 9 months ago
@MystryBox Everyone makes assumptions about something before they state what they believe. By claiming atheism you have already made the assumption that there is no God because without that assumption you wouldn't have any basis for secular beliefs.
VarsitySmurf 10 months ago
@VarsitySmurf what are "secular beliefs"?
MystryBox 10 months ago
@MystryBox There are many ideas and thought processes that go into the category of "secular beliefs" one of them being atheism which you have stated yourself to be. By saying that someone is wrong because they make an assumption there is a God you are making yourself a hypocrite because you have based your belief on the assumption there is no God.
VarsitySmurf 10 months ago
@VarsitySmurf it's almost funny when someone lectures me on what they know little about. Here are some clues for you:
Atheism (i.e. a-theism, non-theism) is not a belief system, it's a lack of a belief system (specifically theism). I'm an atheist merely because I'm not a theist, not because I have any particular "atheist beliefs." In particular to your comment I don't claim there are no gods. I don't know if there are any gods but I don't believe in any there are none apparent.
MystryBox 10 months ago
@MystryBox Not apparent? Look at nature. Look at your pets (if you have any). Look at your loved ones. Look at yourself. How do you logically believe that there isn't a God who created all of this?
VarsitySmurf 10 months ago
@VarsitySmurf yes, not apparent. See my video "Are Atheists Blind, Stupid or What?" for my reply to your comment. Try to answer the question at the end of the video and you'll discover which of our views actually matches reality.
MystryBox 10 months ago
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@VarsitySmurf
"How do you logically believe that there isn't a God who created all of this?"
That's about as convincing as saying. "If there's no santa, then how do the presents get under the Christmas tree?!"
We know how stuff works; saying "a wizard did it" with no supporting evidence does not mean wizards exist.
blackplatypus 9 months ago
@MystryBox As for the "lack of a belief system" statement you made, how can that be? By believing there is no God (or none apparent as you said) how do you live your life? You must get up in the morning and believe that the material world is all there is so you're going to further your life to the furthest of your capability. Isn't that right?
VarsitySmurf 10 months ago
@VarsitySmurf atheism doesn't describe what I am, it describes what I'm not. It is the lack of a belief system (specifically theism). That doesn't mean I don't have positive beliefs... I do. I'm a naturalist and a bright. I have a naturalistic worldview free of supernatural and mystical elements. My ethics and actions are based on this naturalistic worldview.
MystryBox 10 months ago
@mysterybox 1) im not saying that meaning must come from outside myself because of my religious views. im saying it because its the truth, even Atheist Albert Camus recognized it and he realized that life is absurd. at least he is being consistent. how can something that was the result of chance be the source of meaning? we are just an accident in your worldview so we aren't here on purpose.
goodbyebrov 1 year ago
@goodbyebrov I like your raw assertions of truth. Very convincing. Should I do that... simply declare my position truth? Would you find that convincing?
Also we're not the result of accident, we're the result of design (however it's not intelligent design it's natural design).
MystryBox 1 year ago
@MystryBox some would say natural design and accidents are the same thing. the outcome of a rolled die isn't random. it's physics.
setiwoh 11 months ago
@mysertybox 2) so if originally we have no meaning then that means we have no purpose which means a good person could be hitler or Einstein or someone that blows people to bits. nobody is more "good" then anyone else if ultimately we have no purpose. so to say you have a purpose without believing in God is a contradiction to your own beliefs. simply making your own meaning doesn't make you right. so stop trying to add meaning where there is none.
goodbyebrov 1 year ago
@goodbyebrov I'm not going to respond to your absurd "Hitler" comparisons as morality is a totally different subject. If you want to talk about morality please see my video I've referenced three times now "source of morality?" which can be easily found with a youtube search on the title and my id.
MystryBox 1 year ago
@mysertybox 1) you said that morality and the meaning to life is two separate things. i disagree, they go hand in hand. to ask the question if you are a good person(morals) then you have to ask what is your purpose. when you apply your own meaning, again, you recognize that there is originally no meaning.
goodbyebrov 1 year ago
@goodbyebrov we'll have to disagree on that. Morality and meaning of life are different things in my view. Again you state that your own meaning is no meaning, this is nonsensical and simply comes from you view that meaning must come from outside of yourself since that is where you take your lead from due to your religious views. Not everyone is like you.
MystryBox 1 year ago
@goodbyebrov perhaps you could take a break from lecturing me how meaning must be and tell us all how your life has meaning. Sitting in heaven for all eternity paying tribute to the ego of an all powerful being sounds like such an awesome purpose. Tell us about it.
MystryBox 1 year ago
@mysterybox 2) so if there was an ultimate meaning to life then we wouldn't need to apply meaning, right? so when you apply your own meaning then you recognize that there is no meaning to begin with so in reality life is absurd. you are being intellectually inconsistent when you don't believe in God but live as if you have a purpose.
goodbyebrov 1 year ago