Norman Finkelstein debates Daniel Pipes, 1996 pt. 2 of 2

[tadpoleposition]

Norman's a Zionist assassin. All of this Kosher pig crap about the Grand Mufti of Palestine siding with the Nazis, coupling that with the Holocaust (hoax), and the victim card will continue to be Kykishly abused. Maybe the Mufti was aware of the impending danger if Germany fell. In that case, it would've been extremely logical to side with the Nazis.

[automation9]

Pipes is another neo con ass

[johnnyfast]

Almost 15 years later and the "peace" talks are still ongoing. The only thing that's changed is israel has further consolidated and expanded into the palestinian territory.

The peace talks remain nothing more than an international charade to hide israeli theft, occupation and oppression in palestine. The US government is a dishonest broker that fuels the conflict.

[nomsdeguerre]

@givinitsome. Palestinians cause speaks for itself. International legal bodies, almost all UN members agree that israel is occupying palestinian land. Get the fuck out. Follow the rule of law. Finkelstein is a fighter for justice and an excellent debater and he owned that moron

[nomsdeguerre]

Daniel Pipes is an idiot, Finklestein owned him

[givinitsome]

@nomsdeguerre Lol Finklestein's argument can be summed up in one word 'Bantuisation'. Then he complains when Pipes mentioned WWI. What a putz. But if that's enough to impress you...

[1RastaWarrior]

Yes, bantustanization sums up Finkelstein's argument very well. The Israelis are bantustanizng Palestinain land; breaking up what is left of Palestinian land and isolating these pieces from 1 another. In turn they are building settlements in between these bantustans, in effect rendering them disconneted and powerless. Notice that Pipes response to this argument is to say he is unfamiliar with the term bantustanization. This is because he can't deny it's taking place nor can he morally defend it.

[givinitsome]

@1RastaWarrior

Palestine never existed. Name me one Palestinian leader.

The injustice is that Arabs come from Arabia and those that settled in Palestine were not all absorbed by Jordan, when Israel absorbed 850,000 Jewish refugees ethnically cleansed from those same Arab lands.

The Arab dictatorships, which the fascist left have been so keen to defend for 63 years, and the Arab spring is now keen to eject, have used those Arab refugees as a means of fighting Israel and the West.

[1RastaWarrior]

@givinitsome The existance of Palestine can be traced back to around 700 B.C. It was originally called Philistia, or "land of the Philistines". So, if you need the name of a Palestinian leader, I give you Goliath.

Palestinian refugees are people who were either expelled or fled from the areas of Palestine that became the State of Israel. Jordan has absorbed 2,000,000, about 350,000 of which are still living in refugee camps.

Wicked babylon politrick$ cannot change this reality. Bless

[givinitsome]

@1RastaWarrior

Well, that's a very impressive comment. If only any of it were true it might be a little less amusing.

It was originally called Palestina. That is a latin name given to the Land of Israel by Hadrian, after he expelled the Jews. The attempt to connect the land to an Arab peoples - who, incidentally emerged from Arabia in the 7th century - is what is traditionally known as 'stretching things a bit far'.

'Goliath' didn't even exist, incidentally. :0)

[1RastaWarrior]

@givinitsome You stated, "Palestine never existed". I stated the truth, that Palestine's original existence goes back thousands of years . The racial identity of the original inhabitants is irrelevant to the fact that the state of Israel has been taking land from the Palestinians that wasn't given to Israel by the 1947 UN Partition.

“after we become a strong force, as the result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.”

Ben-Gurion, 1938

[givinitsome]

@1RastaWarrior

Haha I win :P Still no Palestinian leader you can name?

There is plenty of evidence which document Arabs (from Arabia) didn't enter the TERRITORY of Palestine until Jews started entering in large numbers, around 1850.

Jews, with the help of Baron Rothschild bought land at extortionate rates from Arab landlords (their Arab tenants often fled due to not being able to pay the rent). Other Fellahin migrated to Palestine because of work, and stayed because of things like medicine.

[1RastaWarrior]

@givinitsome I've already named a Palestinian leader. Others include Mahmoud Abbas, Ahmad Qureia, Yasser Arafat and Ismail Haniya to name a few of the more recent ones. Bless.

[givinitsome]

@1RastaWarrior

Bwahahaha thanks, classic comment. I will be showing others who need cheering up.

I said Palestinian leaders before 1948, so Abbas, Arafat and the rest of that mentally diseased-ridden scum don't really count.

Yes right, Goliath was a Palestinian...?! Do you know the definition of someone who engages in fantasy and then attempts to implement that for political ends? It's fascist. Which you and Finklestein are classic definitions of.

[givinitsome]

@1RastaWarrior

Hey thanks, good definition for all the socialist regimes too.

You and Finky reject this, while at the same time advocating it in your behaviour. Why does Finky and Chomsky support Nazi-saluting Islamic fascist group Hezbollah?

[givinitsome]

@1RastaWarrior

Bwahaha another load of crap. Hezbollah was created from the Shia Muslims who started coming to Lebanon a few decades ago. The Lebanese civil war was a result of their presence in that land. Hezbollah are an illegal terrorist group, and have forcibly taken over the country and assassinated the Lebanese PM Hariri in 2005.

This is everything, and more, that you accuse the Jews of. If you, Chumpsky, et al cared about anything you say you do, you wouldn't support Hezbollah. Crooks!

[QwidgyboMan]

@givinitsome

We support their right to defend their own country, regardless of their crimes. Just as we support Israel's right to defend itself despite it's crimes which are ten fold that of Hezbollah.

[IIIl1IIIlllIII1]

@1RastaWarrior That quote is a total lie & a TOTAL fabrication. If you believe in God, you will refrain from giving life to vicious & evil LIE$ bought & paid for with evil arab oil petrodollar$. Research the truth before quoting filthy arab lie$.

Also, you call yourself a Rasta - did you know that Bob Marley himself was part JEWISH? According to Heather Marley, Bob's cousin,"The Marleys were Syrian Jews that migrated from the Middles East to England and then to Jamaica". Bob M. would spit on you

[IIIl1IIIlllIII1]

@1RastaWarrior Like I said, it is a vicious lie,u believe it. $imha flapan is a delu$ional, self hating Jewish REVISIONI$T hi$torian.Lefti$t BANK$TER Jews such as him,norman finkle$tein & noam chom$ky do not believe in God & are only put on Earth for 1 thing - to totally destroy their believing brothers & sisters & their tiny nation,Israel-smaller than Taiwan! Even the briti$h,no friend of the Jews- their own press from the time backs up the Jewish version of events rather than filthy arab lie$.

[IIIl1IIIlllIII1]

@1RastaWarrior scrawled: "in no way was Bob a supporter of the state of israel"

WTF do you think "ZION" means? idiot non pareille

google Bob Marley & Israel

[QwidgyboMan]

@givinitsome

The same reason why most of the world supported Stalinist Russia against the Nazis.

[GorterPoss]

I don't see where Pipes is coming from. The Palestinians threw their lot in with successive losing sides but they still constitute an entity with substantial bargaining power i.e. demographic threat, rockets, divestment etc... The Palestinains have lost many battles but the war is not over.

[robnaro]

@GorterPoss Not only that which I think is a valid pragmatic point but what about the moral component? "Losers" by birth should not have human rights and freedom? This guy has to know his position is absurd.

[GorterPoss]

@robnaro Pipes It's not that pipes doesn't want the Palestinians to have rigths and freedoms but that he wants them to concede defeat and end their struggle on Israel's terms in much the same way as the Germans surrendered to the Allies in 1945. Truth be told I think the Palestinians have lost the war but refuse to see it. The Jews are not ever going to go back to Europe and they'll fight to the death for their state . At some point the Palestinians will stop flogging the dead horse.

[robnaro]

@GorterPoss Your analogy regarding the Germans is hysterical. The German army surrendered. Palestine has no army or state. "The Jews are not ever going to go back to Europe and they'll fight to the death for their state." - This is ok for Jews but not for Palestinians? Who has ever expected a people to stop flogging the dead horse of liberty? Would you have said this to Native Americans or South Africans?

[GorterPoss]

@robnaro The analogy is not mine, but a common theme in Pipes' work. As for the dead horse, the Native Americans stopped flogging it in the 1870's because they realized that an immovable beheamoth had usurped their land. The Pals have some cards they can still play but the jig is up; the Jews are not going anywhere and they're going to beat the shit out of anyone who tries to hurt them. In the long term only divestment stands a chance but too few will divest as long as Pals target civilians.

[robnaro]

@GorterPoss The analogy is a failure regardless. The native americans didn't stop figthing for their freedom in the 1870's. That may have been when the US army adopted a policy of extermination but many natives fought on. Wounded knee was in 1890 & is generally considered the end of armed resistance. Its not the 19th century. The world is watching. The palestinians have world favor & Israel suffers endless PR defeats. If the US support for Israel weakens the palestinians will be free.

[GorterPoss]

@robnaro I agree that PR and divestment hold some promise. However, the world is also watching the Palestinians and as long as Hamas targets civilians Israel looks like a victim. Israel leans heavily on the U.S. but it would be foolish to count one's hopes on an unlikely slackening of American support for Israel.

[robnaro]

@GorterPoss Weakening US support is one possible scenario not something for the Palestinians to pin their hopes upon. The international community does not see Israel as a victim, this is clear. Hamas has evolved somewhat with renunciation of suicide attacks and the cessation of rocket attacks. The damage and violence done against civilians is nothing compared to what Israel has done and will continue to do.

[GorterPoss]

@robnaro Perhaps the intl community sees the Palestinians as higher up on the victim scale but I disagree with your contention that Israel is not seen as a victim (at least at times). Children blown to pieces (literally) while waiting in line at a pizzeria or indiscriminate rocket fire at residential areas definitely fall under category of victimhood for many people. I actually think such attacks benefit Israel because it diverts attention from Israeli wrongdoings and stalling divestment.

[robnaro]

@GorterPoss Victims of violence are heart wrenching & definitely a political hinderance. We can both cite evidence of terrorism on each side but the sheer magnitude of Israeli crimes leads to a clear indication of whom is the aggressor & whom is the victim nationally. Just as it would be absurd to label the white s. africans as victims under apartheid or white settlers victims of native americans during colonization it is absurd to label the state of Israel as a victim under occupation.

[GorterPoss]

@robnaro The Palestinians make a more compelling case for victimhood but I don't agree with your analogies. 1948 Israel was definitely seen as a victim of an Arab effort to snuff out the state of hundreds of thousands of Holocaust refugees from Europe and refugees from the Arab world.  Israel retains some measure of this early victimhood. Even if you are right, Palestinian resistance too often associates itself with Jihad and Islamic martyrdom; hardly causes that garner intl sympathy.

[robnaro]

@GorterPoss We can disagree and leave it at that if you wish. I don't think there is any evidence that the int. community still views 1948 victim hood as relevant to today's occupation. I would also disagree with the latter part of your last statement. I think martyrdom Islamic or otherwise garners quite a bit of sympathy especially outside of the US. The association with jihad does disillusion many who see it as violent and dangerous. Best regards.

[Hkhan23]

@GorterPoss if you actually look at the truth... you would know that the zionist founders like rothschild, made sure that the jews got persecuted in order insure sympathy for the jews, to create a jewish state....and to migrate all the holocaust survivors to israel...rothschilds funded hitler.. and rothschild is the founder of israel....you call me a whatever the fuck you want too, but facts are facts...and this is a fact...

[GorterPoss]

@Hkhan23 Can you point me toward evidence of your claim about Rothschild?

[Hkhan23]

@GorterPoss read the article..iamwitness dotcom , the writer cites his sources.. also read the jewish encyclopedia....google... history of the rothschild timeline

[sssssjjjj1]

Listen to pipe. He has the lofty attitude, you may have this or that when we see fit. We get it all and you get what we think you should get. You time is coming oh great ones.  Legends in your own mind. You've been reading your own publication and watching your own scripted networks far too long.