Zepvista sorry but you are wrong. All original Cobras built in the 60's were made complete apart from engine and box at AC in Thames Ditton England. They were shipped to Shelbys plant in LA for the engine and box to be fitted and various other mods carried out. Perhaps you are thinking of the more recent copies built by Shelby?
Why do some people insist on ignoring history and calling this car "all American"? Its an insult to all the people in the UK that were involved in the project.
With regard to the Shelby vs Auto Carrier debate, as a fan of both makes I am in a surprisingly uncommon position since most folks absolutely have a 'side' here. The reality is that, aside from the cars, this was a marriage made in Hell and neither AC or Shelby American liked each other very much by the time that marriage ended. That was unfortunate too, because an evolution of the Shelby Cobra would haev been just the car for the supercar 70's, and might have even saved AC.
Notice the VIN number, the badge on the hood and trunk, and the legal manufacturer of record. Shelby Cobra, not AC Cobra. Auto Carrier actually completed some cars for sale in Britain and other non-U.S. markets which wore serial number that started with COB or COX rather than CSX as the Shelby cars did, but they don't sell for nearly as much as an actual Shelby Cobra and while some folks consider them 'real Cobra's' many do not.
@1978BHO Doesn't matter if it says Shelby Cobra on the badges, the fact is that all real Cobras were built by AC in England, not by Shelby in America. AC Cobras and Shelby Cobras are the same apart from the badges, and I'd argue that most people who actually know about Cobras would say that those badged AC are definitely real Cobras - and worth just as much as those with Shelby Badges. (Apart from those with a famous racing history of course).
@t45tube You could indeed argue it, but you won't have much evidence to help you. In the 1980's the owner of Auto Carrier signed a court document stating that Shelby American is the manufacturer of record for all of the original Shelby Cobra's. Even more, the AC built COX and COB cars absolutely do not sell for nearly as much as a Shelby CSX car does, and I am talking about a factor of several times more money for the CSX cars here. That isn't my opinion, they are facts.
@1978BHO I'd read about that document, and it completely ignores the facts that Cobras were built in AC's factory in Thames Ditton, NOT by Shelby American and that Shelby sold the Cobra name to Ford in 1965 and therefore could have no legitimate legal claim to it. I can believe Shelby badged Cobras sell for more in US due to this belief that Shelby designed and built them. He did neither, but the Cobra would never have existed without him - and it's a true legend whatever badge it wears.
Yes, body and chassis were UK built by AC for both the 427 & 289 cars, but drivelines, etc. were not installed until the cars hit the Shelby factory and, actually, Shelby/Ford co-designed the 427 Cobra, not AC. The 289 Cobra was effectively a re-engined Ace, but the 427 Cobra was not based on any prior AC design. In my experience, virtually every owner of a legit Cobra is familiar with how these cars were built. And Ford agrees that Shelby is the manufacturer od record by the way.
@1978BHO Yes, drivelines for Cobras sold in US installed by Shelby but drivelines for 'European' Cobras installed in UK. Yes, 289 Cobra effectively re-engined Ace, but initial engineering done by AC. Would disagree that 427 not based on prior AC design. Body basically 'big arched' 289 and chassis still twin tube design, though with bigger tubes and better suspension - which is down to Ford/Shelby. And Ford seemed happy to let AC use Cobra name for the MkIV versions made up to about 10 years ago.
The the 427 Cobra look like a meaner, nastier 289 Cobra does not make the big block cars AC Ace-based. There is absolutely a relationship there, but it isn't based on an existing AC design. Ford and Shelby sued AC for using the Cobra name without a license and won, so no...Ford wasn't happy. Drivelines for AC COX/COB cars were indeed installed in the UK, but there aren't very many COX/COB cars to be had. Roughly 60 leaf spring models and roughly 30 more coil spring cars were built.
@1978BHO The 427 still uses what's essentially a twin tube Tojeiro chassis and a modified Ace/289 body, so I'd argue it is based on an AC design, albeit one that's had lots of development by Shelby American due to a racing programme that started improving the Cobra from race 1. So the 427 is certainly much more a 'Shelby car' than the 289, but it's hardly a clean sheet Shelby design. And AC told me that Ford were happy to let them use the Cobra name when I visited the Weybridge factory in 2000.
I think the chassis is the first area where you are really reaching for it. Twin tube chassis designs were and still are extremely common. The 427 was obviously a next generation take on the 289 car, but outside of that they were completely different cars the latter not designed by AC. Sadly, if AC told you that Ford was happy to let them use the Cobra name they were lying. Even the new Mk VI avoids the official use of the Cobra moniker for a reason.
@1978BHO Yes, the new MkVI avoids the use of the Cobra name for a reason - it doesn't use a Ford engine! When AC made a Lotus V8 engined version they didn't call that a Cobra either. But AC's Ford engined MkIV built in the 80s/90s is always called a MkIV Cobra, and I believe is recognised as a 'real Cobra' by the Shelby American International Register. As for the 427 chassis, my info is that it's the work of both Bob Negstadt of Shelby-American and Alan Turner of AC. (And maybe Ford's computer.)
It is not uncommon for even the Mk VI to be referred to as a 'Cobra' in reviewes, etc just as the Mk IV was, but Ford was a co-plaintiff in the lawsuit we were discussing earlier, AC has not badged their cars as a Cobra in any nation where Ford holds a trademark since.
The SAAC registry does not consider the MkIV's you are referring to legit Cobra's, and I have never seen Shelby American or Ford credit AC with performing any of the actual engineering on the 427. AC may disagree.
@1978BHO Yes, the MkVI is often wrongly called a Cobra in reviews. But the MkIV is called a Cobra by UK classic car mags and classic car dealers - who tend to know their stuff. As for badges, even in 1960s UK Cobras had AC badges, not the Cobra badges used on US cars.
The SAAC website has a registration form for MkIVs, while more than one source says AC were involved with 427 chassis. How involved I don't know - could just have been Alan Turner and Bob Negstadt discussing ideas on the phone.
AC 'Cobra's' did not always wear AC badges, during the Angliss era he slapped the traditional Cobra badge on the car helping to spawn the lawsuit in question. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what a magazine calls them, the AC MkIV hasn't been officially badged/called a Cobra in any country where Ford holds a copyright since AC settled that lawsuit with Ford and Shelby.
The SAAC has stated clearly that not all cars in the registry are actual Cobra's.
@1978BHO Well my research shows that after Brian Angliss obtained the rights to the AC name in 1986, Ford took a stake in the company and gave Angliss permission to use the Cobra name in every market EXCEPT the US (possibly because of that lawsuit you mentioned). This would be about the same time Ford warned UK kit car replica manufacturers off using the Cobra name. I think that shows that MkIVs are indeed 'official Cobras' on this side of the Atlantic, but clearly not in the US.
If, and I mean if, Ford gave him the right to use the Cobra name it didn't last very long because Ford moved to liquidate AC almost immediately after getting into the deal with Angliss. Since the lawsuit, Ford has granted nobody permission to use the Cobra name and IIRC that predates 1986. If AC used the Cobra name officially after that it was in countries where Ford holds no copyright.
@1978BHO Why doubt that Ford would allow a company they had a stake in to use a name they owned? Especially considering the Cobra's legendary status and the fact that Ford were so desperate for 'reflected prestige' they also bought Aston Martin and Jag around the same time. Classic car magazines, classic car dealers and even top auction houses in the UK all call the MkIV a Cobra. Ford must know and could easily send out legal letters stopping it if they objected. But they haven't.
Unfortunately for AC/Autokraft Ford's relationship with the brand didn't last at all and focused almost entirely upon the upcoming Ace. Ford was gone almost as they got in, and the lawsuit they, AC, and Shelby were involved in granted Shelby exclusive rights to use the Cobra name on the Cobra roadster itself. Shelby does indeed have the legal right to go after any 'illegitimate' cars and has done so on occasion. However, he has been very conservative in this regard.
@1978BHO True, Ford's stake in AC didn't last long due to bust up over the Ace. As for what's 'legit' an aluminium bodied car built by AC using original Cobra tooling is far more legit than Shelby's fibreglass bodied 'continuation Cobras'. And while Shelby has sued various companies (including Kirkham - after using their alloy bodies for his 'continuation Cobras'!) he's lost more than once, in part due to the Cobra's AC heritage - something reflected in badging of first Cobras sold in US.
Shelby originally wanted to badge the cars Shelby-AC Cobra's. Foolishly, AC snubbed Shelby's contribution in European brochures and Shelby returned the favor by removing the AC reference from the badges. This influenced everything from marketing to the surprisingly non AC influenced engineering of the big block cars. Since other makes including AC have legally produced the basic Cobra shape he couldn't trademark it. However, he does hold a trademark to sell that shape as a Cobra.
@1978BHO I always thought 'American' Cobras used Shelby badges because AC was unknown in US, while Shelby name was famous and more 'marketable' (especially with Shelby himself doing the selling) whereas in Europe AC was an established marque so it made sense to use AC badging here.
I can't help thinking it's a pity Shelby didn't work with Angliss to sell MkIV Cobras in the US (with Shelby badges of course!) rather than suing him. Especially as he got AC to build Cobras for him again in 2003.
I think the Cobra would have been badged as a 'Shelby-AC' at best even had the AC name been better known on this side of the Atlantic. That said, I'm not surprised Shelby hasn't been eager to work with AC since the 60's, well and truly that relationship over the years has been a very tumultuous one. I'm not sure how Angliss and Shelby got along on a personal level prior to the lawsuit. The attempted AC-Shelby 'reunion' in 2003 was sadly another disaster in a history of the same.
@1978BHO I agree that Shelby's name would always have been more prominent in US - as with the Shelby Mustang - to cash in on his fame. Makes sound business sense.
Of course it's not just AC that Shelby's had bust ups with (Enzo Ferrari is another) and he now seems to be about as famous for starting law suits as he is for his racing successes and his involvement with Cobras and Mustangs. Pity really because it definitely seems to have harmed his reputation and lost him a lot of respect.
The 'lawsuit happy' nature of Carrol Shelby is blown out of proportion. He has won more of suits than he has lost. In fact, the only major suit he has partially lost is the attempt to outright trademark the Cobra shape, he won the right to keep anybody else from legally calling a car so shaped as a Cobra, with Ford's blessing, but anybody can produce the basic shape itself. And while he is either loved or hated, it certainly doesn't seem to have hurt the value of his name or his cars.
@1978BHO Your point about the value is clearly bourne out by the info in the description for this thread's video. $962,500! The description is however wrong when it says 'the 427 Cobra is an all-American performance icon'. Definitely an Anglo-American performance icon because AC, Ford and Shelby American all played their part. Incidentally, several Shelby American staff were ex-pat Brits, so there was still plenty of British involvement in the Cobra even on that side of the Atlantic. :-)
Denying the British roots readily apparent in the Cobra would be pointless. And perhaps that is the most ironic part of the whole equation, in that it is so very American to incorporate and embrace the best the world has to offer. The melding of American and British ideas relative to anything made to go very fast has typically ended very well. The Cobra and early Ford GT's are unique among cars IMO, in that they manage to be so unequivocally American and British simultaneously.
@1978BHO I'd agree with that. I'd also like to say it's been nice to have an intelligent adult discussion without any of the infantile insults that ruin so many YouTube threads. You are a credit to true car enthusiasts sir.
@reverendkrv All American performance meaning The Engine STEERING transmission rear end ect. "Erm" I think it is all-American Engineering. I love the car, I know the body of it is British, but the guts of it are all American. better phrase if you wana take SOME of the glory is Anglo-American.
Holy crap. Sexy. But, what it needs are the twin stripes down the middle, in canary yellow. Bleed the edges a bit too...powder the side pipes and you got one mean bitch.
Zepvista sorry but you are wrong. All original Cobras built in the 60's were made complete apart from engine and box at AC in Thames Ditton England. They were shipped to Shelbys plant in LA for the engine and box to be fitted and various other mods carried out. Perhaps you are thinking of the more recent copies built by Shelby?
Why do some people insist on ignoring history and calling this car "all American"? Its an insult to all the people in the UK that were involved in the project.
LB427SC 2 months ago
anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. 427 Cobras did NOT ,and I'll repeat,did NOT use AC bodies. those bodies were made in LA
zepvista 5 months ago
With regard to the Shelby vs Auto Carrier debate, as a fan of both makes I am in a surprisingly uncommon position since most folks absolutely have a 'side' here. The reality is that, aside from the cars, this was a marriage made in Hell and neither AC or Shelby American liked each other very much by the time that marriage ended. That was unfortunate too, because an evolution of the Shelby Cobra would haev been just the car for the supercar 70's, and might have even saved AC.
1978BHO 7 months ago
British....the end
WildmanBorneo 8 months ago
If i ever get some real money , im definitely buying one of these
billyswag716 1 year ago
@billyswag716 Those are the real deal !! Even my old man says the same :!!
Triton88Keyz 1 year ago
lol at the description 'all-american'...erm wrong,do some research -.- and notice those letters in the centre of the steering wheel,BIG clue there ;)
AC cobra
reverendkrv 1 year ago
@reverendkrv
Notice the VIN number, the badge on the hood and trunk, and the legal manufacturer of record. Shelby Cobra, not AC Cobra. Auto Carrier actually completed some cars for sale in Britain and other non-U.S. markets which wore serial number that started with COB or COX rather than CSX as the Shelby cars did, but they don't sell for nearly as much as an actual Shelby Cobra and while some folks consider them 'real Cobra's' many do not.
1978BHO 9 months ago
@1978BHO Doesn't matter if it says Shelby Cobra on the badges, the fact is that all real Cobras were built by AC in England, not by Shelby in America. AC Cobras and Shelby Cobras are the same apart from the badges, and I'd argue that most people who actually know about Cobras would say that those badged AC are definitely real Cobras - and worth just as much as those with Shelby Badges. (Apart from those with a famous racing history of course).
t45tube 7 months ago
@t45tube You could indeed argue it, but you won't have much evidence to help you. In the 1980's the owner of Auto Carrier signed a court document stating that Shelby American is the manufacturer of record for all of the original Shelby Cobra's. Even more, the AC built COX and COB cars absolutely do not sell for nearly as much as a Shelby CSX car does, and I am talking about a factor of several times more money for the CSX cars here. That isn't my opinion, they are facts.
1978BHO 7 months ago
@1978BHO I'd read about that document, and it completely ignores the facts that Cobras were built in AC's factory in Thames Ditton, NOT by Shelby American and that Shelby sold the Cobra name to Ford in 1965 and therefore could have no legitimate legal claim to it. I can believe Shelby badged Cobras sell for more in US due to this belief that Shelby designed and built them. He did neither, but the Cobra would never have existed without him - and it's a true legend whatever badge it wears.
t45tube 7 months ago
@t45tube
Yes, body and chassis were UK built by AC for both the 427 & 289 cars, but drivelines, etc. were not installed until the cars hit the Shelby factory and, actually, Shelby/Ford co-designed the 427 Cobra, not AC. The 289 Cobra was effectively a re-engined Ace, but the 427 Cobra was not based on any prior AC design. In my experience, virtually every owner of a legit Cobra is familiar with how these cars were built. And Ford agrees that Shelby is the manufacturer od record by the way.
1978BHO 7 months ago
@1978BHO Yes, drivelines for Cobras sold in US installed by Shelby but drivelines for 'European' Cobras installed in UK. Yes, 289 Cobra effectively re-engined Ace, but initial engineering done by AC. Would disagree that 427 not based on prior AC design. Body basically 'big arched' 289 and chassis still twin tube design, though with bigger tubes and better suspension - which is down to Ford/Shelby. And Ford seemed happy to let AC use Cobra name for the MkIV versions made up to about 10 years ago.
t45tube 7 months ago
@t45tube
The the 427 Cobra look like a meaner, nastier 289 Cobra does not make the big block cars AC Ace-based. There is absolutely a relationship there, but it isn't based on an existing AC design. Ford and Shelby sued AC for using the Cobra name without a license and won, so no...Ford wasn't happy. Drivelines for AC COX/COB cars were indeed installed in the UK, but there aren't very many COX/COB cars to be had. Roughly 60 leaf spring models and roughly 30 more coil spring cars were built.
1978BHO 7 months ago
@1978BHO The 427 still uses what's essentially a twin tube Tojeiro chassis and a modified Ace/289 body, so I'd argue it is based on an AC design, albeit one that's had lots of development by Shelby American due to a racing programme that started improving the Cobra from race 1. So the 427 is certainly much more a 'Shelby car' than the 289, but it's hardly a clean sheet Shelby design. And AC told me that Ford were happy to let them use the Cobra name when I visited the Weybridge factory in 2000.
t45tube 7 months ago
@t45tube
I think the chassis is the first area where you are really reaching for it. Twin tube chassis designs were and still are extremely common. The 427 was obviously a next generation take on the 289 car, but outside of that they were completely different cars the latter not designed by AC. Sadly, if AC told you that Ford was happy to let them use the Cobra name they were lying. Even the new Mk VI avoids the official use of the Cobra moniker for a reason.
1978BHO 7 months ago
@1978BHO Yes, the new MkVI avoids the use of the Cobra name for a reason - it doesn't use a Ford engine! When AC made a Lotus V8 engined version they didn't call that a Cobra either. But AC's Ford engined MkIV built in the 80s/90s is always called a MkIV Cobra, and I believe is recognised as a 'real Cobra' by the Shelby American International Register. As for the 427 chassis, my info is that it's the work of both Bob Negstadt of Shelby-American and Alan Turner of AC. (And maybe Ford's computer.)
t45tube 7 months ago
@t45tube
It is not uncommon for even the Mk VI to be referred to as a 'Cobra' in reviewes, etc just as the Mk IV was, but Ford was a co-plaintiff in the lawsuit we were discussing earlier, AC has not badged their cars as a Cobra in any nation where Ford holds a trademark since.
The SAAC registry does not consider the MkIV's you are referring to legit Cobra's, and I have never seen Shelby American or Ford credit AC with performing any of the actual engineering on the 427. AC may disagree.
1978BHO 7 months ago
@1978BHO Yes, the MkVI is often wrongly called a Cobra in reviews. But the MkIV is called a Cobra by UK classic car mags and classic car dealers - who tend to know their stuff. As for badges, even in 1960s UK Cobras had AC badges, not the Cobra badges used on US cars.
The SAAC website has a registration form for MkIVs, while more than one source says AC were involved with 427 chassis. How involved I don't know - could just have been Alan Turner and Bob Negstadt discussing ideas on the phone.
t45tube 7 months ago
@t45tube
AC 'Cobra's' did not always wear AC badges, during the Angliss era he slapped the traditional Cobra badge on the car helping to spawn the lawsuit in question. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what a magazine calls them, the AC MkIV hasn't been officially badged/called a Cobra in any country where Ford holds a copyright since AC settled that lawsuit with Ford and Shelby.
The SAAC has stated clearly that not all cars in the registry are actual Cobra's.
1978BHO 7 months ago
@1978BHO Well my research shows that after Brian Angliss obtained the rights to the AC name in 1986, Ford took a stake in the company and gave Angliss permission to use the Cobra name in every market EXCEPT the US (possibly because of that lawsuit you mentioned). This would be about the same time Ford warned UK kit car replica manufacturers off using the Cobra name. I think that shows that MkIVs are indeed 'official Cobras' on this side of the Atlantic, but clearly not in the US.
t45tube 7 months ago
@t45tube
If, and I mean if, Ford gave him the right to use the Cobra name it didn't last very long because Ford moved to liquidate AC almost immediately after getting into the deal with Angliss. Since the lawsuit, Ford has granted nobody permission to use the Cobra name and IIRC that predates 1986. If AC used the Cobra name officially after that it was in countries where Ford holds no copyright.
1978BHO 7 months ago
@1978BHO Why doubt that Ford would allow a company they had a stake in to use a name they owned? Especially considering the Cobra's legendary status and the fact that Ford were so desperate for 'reflected prestige' they also bought Aston Martin and Jag around the same time. Classic car magazines, classic car dealers and even top auction houses in the UK all call the MkIV a Cobra. Ford must know and could easily send out legal letters stopping it if they objected. But they haven't.
t45tube 7 months ago
@t45tube
Unfortunately for AC/Autokraft Ford's relationship with the brand didn't last at all and focused almost entirely upon the upcoming Ace. Ford was gone almost as they got in, and the lawsuit they, AC, and Shelby were involved in granted Shelby exclusive rights to use the Cobra name on the Cobra roadster itself. Shelby does indeed have the legal right to go after any 'illegitimate' cars and has done so on occasion. However, he has been very conservative in this regard.
1978BHO 7 months ago
@1978BHO True, Ford's stake in AC didn't last long due to bust up over the Ace. As for what's 'legit' an aluminium bodied car built by AC using original Cobra tooling is far more legit than Shelby's fibreglass bodied 'continuation Cobras'. And while Shelby has sued various companies (including Kirkham - after using their alloy bodies for his 'continuation Cobras'!) he's lost more than once, in part due to the Cobra's AC heritage - something reflected in badging of first Cobras sold in US.
t45tube 7 months ago
@t45tube
Shelby originally wanted to badge the cars Shelby-AC Cobra's. Foolishly, AC snubbed Shelby's contribution in European brochures and Shelby returned the favor by removing the AC reference from the badges. This influenced everything from marketing to the surprisingly non AC influenced engineering of the big block cars. Since other makes including AC have legally produced the basic Cobra shape he couldn't trademark it. However, he does hold a trademark to sell that shape as a Cobra.
1978BHO 7 months ago
@1978BHO I always thought 'American' Cobras used Shelby badges because AC was unknown in US, while Shelby name was famous and more 'marketable' (especially with Shelby himself doing the selling) whereas in Europe AC was an established marque so it made sense to use AC badging here.
I can't help thinking it's a pity Shelby didn't work with Angliss to sell MkIV Cobras in the US (with Shelby badges of course!) rather than suing him. Especially as he got AC to build Cobras for him again in 2003.
t45tube 7 months ago
@t45tube
I think the Cobra would have been badged as a 'Shelby-AC' at best even had the AC name been better known on this side of the Atlantic. That said, I'm not surprised Shelby hasn't been eager to work with AC since the 60's, well and truly that relationship over the years has been a very tumultuous one. I'm not sure how Angliss and Shelby got along on a personal level prior to the lawsuit. The attempted AC-Shelby 'reunion' in 2003 was sadly another disaster in a history of the same.
1978BHO 7 months ago
@1978BHO I agree that Shelby's name would always have been more prominent in US - as with the Shelby Mustang - to cash in on his fame. Makes sound business sense.
Of course it's not just AC that Shelby's had bust ups with (Enzo Ferrari is another) and he now seems to be about as famous for starting law suits as he is for his racing successes and his involvement with Cobras and Mustangs. Pity really because it definitely seems to have harmed his reputation and lost him a lot of respect.
t45tube 6 months ago
@t45tube
The 'lawsuit happy' nature of Carrol Shelby is blown out of proportion. He has won more of suits than he has lost. In fact, the only major suit he has partially lost is the attempt to outright trademark the Cobra shape, he won the right to keep anybody else from legally calling a car so shaped as a Cobra, with Ford's blessing, but anybody can produce the basic shape itself. And while he is either loved or hated, it certainly doesn't seem to have hurt the value of his name or his cars.
1978BHO 6 months ago
@1978BHO Your point about the value is clearly bourne out by the info in the description for this thread's video. $962,500! The description is however wrong when it says 'the 427 Cobra is an all-American performance icon'. Definitely an Anglo-American performance icon because AC, Ford and Shelby American all played their part. Incidentally, several Shelby American staff were ex-pat Brits, so there was still plenty of British involvement in the Cobra even on that side of the Atlantic. :-)
t45tube 6 months ago
@t45tube
Denying the British roots readily apparent in the Cobra would be pointless. And perhaps that is the most ironic part of the whole equation, in that it is so very American to incorporate and embrace the best the world has to offer. The melding of American and British ideas relative to anything made to go very fast has typically ended very well. The Cobra and early Ford GT's are unique among cars IMO, in that they manage to be so unequivocally American and British simultaneously.
1978BHO 6 months ago
@1978BHO I'd agree with that. I'd also like to say it's been nice to have an intelligent adult discussion without any of the infantile insults that ruin so many YouTube threads. You are a credit to true car enthusiasts sir.
t45tube 6 months ago
@t45tube
Thank you sir, the feeling is mutual.
1978BHO 6 months ago
@reverendkrv All American performance meaning The Engine STEERING transmission rear end ect. "Erm" I think it is all-American Engineering. I love the car, I know the body of it is British, but the guts of it are all American. better phrase if you wana take SOME of the glory is Anglo-American.
14omega28ok 8 months ago
no ay duda q el shelby cobra es un de los autos mas lindos y sexis q ay ,y mas si es el legendario 427
nikkkitoooooooo 2 years ago
Holy crap. Sexy. But, what it needs are the twin stripes down the middle, in canary yellow. Bleed the edges a bit too...powder the side pipes and you got one mean bitch.
BeeRich33 3 years ago