As knowledgeable as Dr. Brown may be, he is being disingenuous in his carefully crafted, selective reading, of the Tanakh.
He states that blood on Yom Kippur was for atonement, yet, the goat that was to ATONE for the people, was NOT killed, but was set free into the wilderness (Lev 16:10).
Dr. Brown is a scholar, but as we all know, everyone is biased, and he reads the corpus of Torah through the lens of Christian assumptions and presuppositions.
Do you mean to state that there was no blood shed on Yom Kippur to make atonement?
Seems like you made a straw man argument here. set him up about one thing he said and then jump to the goat that was sent out. These are two different issues.
@answers4rabbis lev states that sacrifices only cover sins that are unintentional. Also the prophets explain that without a temple there will be no sacrifice, and that instead prayers will be treated as the means for atonement and there will be no need for a sacrifice until the temple is restored in the end of days. Also it is absolutely against judaism to have a human being as a sacrifice. God says many times he does not desire blood and sacrifice, but desires humble people who follow torah
@moddie84 You overlook many important points. 1)Lev never states sacrifices "ONLY" cover unintentional sins. quote that verse please because you are liing. The prophets explain "there will be no sacrifice"??? I think you mean that the Prophets explained you will be exiled and without a temple because of your many sins and rejection of God! You should instead ask yourself why 2,000 year exile (more than babylonian and asserian exile combined!). Those exhiles were clear. Why no prophets?
@answers4rabbis its in lev 4 and 5 an example is "When a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the LORD's holy things, he is to bring to the LORD as a penalty a ram from the flock". as for prayer hosea 14 "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously,
that we may offer our lips as sacrifices of bulls"
@moddie84 Nobody disagrees that a sacrifice is to be made for unintentional sins. Sacrifices are to be made for intentional sins as well! Finding one does not exclude the other.
@answers4rabbis and finally to your last point. why are the jews cursed for the last 2000 years? isaiah 53 answers that perfectly, when the gentiles say "yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; " Gentiles continually persecute the jews claiming it is God's curse, but one day will realize like Isaiah predicts that it was not God's curse but the nations own wrong doings that hurt the jews.
@answers4rabbis it says he was crushed BECAUSE of our inequities. It means when the nations sin, Israel suffers. You'll notice that throughout the tanakh. when Israel is in exile the nations always treat them terribly. It later says in Isaiah 53, that "our sins were on THEM." Jesus isn't a them.
@moddie84 seriously, what passage are you reading? Isaiah 53 goes on to say...For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
@moddie84 Isa 53:7, speaking of the servant’s lamblike silence and submission in the midst of his suffering can not apply to the remnant, which was sometimes very vocally opposed to the sinful majority and even led resistance movements to overthrow their oppressors (as the Maccabees did in the 2nd century BCE); nor was the righteous remnant ever highly exalted to the point that kings bowed down before it/them, as stated explicitly in the end of Isaiah 52.
@answers4rabbis well like i said thats why you have to read zephaniah 3 "The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.
13 They will do no wrong; they will tell no lies.
A deceitful tongue will not be found in their mouths. "
Also Israel is called a priestly nation, and a priest to the nations throughout the tanakh. That is not a new concept. Israel is meant to help bring redemption and light to the nations.
@moddie84 yes, the Jews are to be a light to the Nations. How have you done this? I can see clearly how Jesus has done this. You have not provided a sufficient answer to why Jews have been exhiled for 2,000 years, more than 50% of our existence! And why has God been silent during this time? Where are his prophets???
@answers4rabbis I have already answered this Isaiah 53 4 "Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore, yet we ourselves esteemed him cursed, smitten of G- D and afflicted." this is saying that until the messiah, gentiles will believe Israel is suffering because of Israel's sin, when in fact its because the sins of the nations. Also Hosea and daniel predict the destruction of the 2nd temple.
@moddie84 ok, this is taking up too much of my time and not getting anywhere, if you would like to talk more, it will have to be by phone. private message me and we can set that up through skype or yahoo messenger or something.
@answers4rabbis and in answer to the whole lamb concept psalms 44:17-18, Psalms 44:22. Speak about Israel being led away like sheep and oppressed by the nations. Like I said nothing in Isaiah 53 is a foreign concept to Israel.
@moddie84 Of course it is not a foreign concept to Israel, it is about the Israeli Messiah!!! But a simple reading of the passage by a 5th grader will know the passage sounds more like Jesus than Israel which by the way is a new interpretation in the past 1500 years, before that rabbi's only interpretation was the Isaiah 53 referred to the Messiah. The Lubavitch also hold to this interpretation.
@answers4rabbis yes some rabbis said this is talking about the messiah, but they said it was about a messiah, and at the time that was written, anyone annointed, a king or a high priest was called messiah, and the righteous remnant of Israel.
@moddie84 Some Rabbis? The point is NO Rabbis were talking about Israel until 1500 years AFTER Jesus. You can not claim that there was no concept of "THe Messiah" at the time that was written. Why do you keep making stuff up?
@answers4rabbis to be honest a lot of modern churches also recognize isaiah 53 as speaking about Israel. I mean it is the 4th of 4 servant songs, and the other 3 are about Israel, as are chapters 52 and 54, so why would 53 be different
@answers4rabbis also in numbers 15 it says it EXPLICITLY sins unintentionally he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering.The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him,he will be forgiven...'But anyone who sins defiantly,whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people.
@moddie84 This is silly, even your rabbi doesn't believe this! You mean to tell me that during the Yom Kippur service as outlined in Leviticus chapter 16 every mention of "sin offering" sacrifice is merely for "unintentional sins" alone? You don't even know what you believe!!!
@moddie84 I have no problem with what the Tanakh says, even your rabbi knows that both intentional sins and unintentional sins require a sacrifice. Showing me a passage that says to make a sacrifice for an unintentional sin does not exclude intentional sins for also needing a sacrifice. Are you comprehending this?
@answers4rabbis how do you not understand numbers 15? It says when the sin is unintentional you make the sacrifice, but if it an intentional sin, they must be cut off, and can't have sacrifice. numbers 15 30 “‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31 Because they have despised the LORD’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’”
@moddie84 Wow, you like to take passages out of context don't you. This passage is about community issues. Num 15:22 “‘Now if you as a community ...community being aware of... the whole community ...25 ...make atonement for the whole Israelite community, ...a sin offering. 26 The whole Israelite community......... So if one person doesn't keep the law where the community does then they will be cut off, but if you read ANY other passage, you know one is not cut off for EVERY intentional sin!!!
@answers4rabbis what are you talking about? " 27 “‘But if just one person sins unintentionally, that person must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering....“‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD and must be cut off from the people of Israel." Thats one person not a community
@moddie84 yes, ONE PERSON in the CONTEXT of a COMMUNITY. Do you mean to tell me that you think EVERY PERSON SHOULD BE CUT OFF FOR ANY UNINTENTIONAL SIN??? Do you even listen to yourself?
@answers4rabbis i recommending doing a more thorough investigation in to rabbinical claims about isaiah 53. You'll notice that missionaries have misquoted or taken quotes out of context from most of these sources. And also it is important to understand that mashiach merely means anointed during the times of their writings, and that language was not used in order to refer to a final redeemer.
@answers4rabbis and in the original hebrew translation Isaiah 53:8 says "From my peoples' sins, there was injury to them." Them is plural. Jesus is not a 'them.'
@answers4rabbis again modern translations have changed it to fit christianity, but if you check the masoretic texts, it will say "From my peoples' sins, there was injury to them."
@answers4rabbis in addition the ONLY one called the servant in all of Isaiah is Israel/Jacob/Yeshurin(righteous remnant of Israel). And the 4th servant song starts at the end of Isaiah 52 "Behold My servant will prosper." Then it says that the servant will the kings of nations will be astonished, and then it leads in to "who would believe our report." The speaker are the kings of nations, it is what they will say when they are astonished.
@answers4rabbis and don't say "its in a different chapter so its a different subject." The chapter breaks were introduced by the church, and were never in the original scriptures. It is clearly all one thought.
@ipwnnewbs50 Only two times before with no temple, the exiles which were a punishement for our disobedience. God promised to protect us and prosper us when we obey. You have a much bigger problem.
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youreglowing 1 year ago
As knowledgeable as Dr. Brown may be, he is being disingenuous in his carefully crafted, selective reading, of the Tanakh.
He states that blood on Yom Kippur was for atonement, yet, the goat that was to ATONE for the people, was NOT killed, but was set free into the wilderness (Lev 16:10).
Dr. Brown is a scholar, but as we all know, everyone is biased, and he reads the corpus of Torah through the lens of Christian assumptions and presuppositions.
Judaic rebuttals here: simpletoremember . com
YisraelOrBust 2 years ago
@YisraelOrBust
Do you mean to state that there was no blood shed on Yom Kippur to make atonement?
Seems like you made a straw man argument here. set him up about one thing he said and then jump to the goat that was sent out. These are two different issues.
answers4rabbis 1 year ago 2
@answers4rabbis lev states that sacrifices only cover sins that are unintentional. Also the prophets explain that without a temple there will be no sacrifice, and that instead prayers will be treated as the means for atonement and there will be no need for a sacrifice until the temple is restored in the end of days. Also it is absolutely against judaism to have a human being as a sacrifice. God says many times he does not desire blood and sacrifice, but desires humble people who follow torah
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 You overlook many important points. 1)Lev never states sacrifices "ONLY" cover unintentional sins. quote that verse please because you are liing. The prophets explain "there will be no sacrifice"??? I think you mean that the Prophets explained you will be exiled and without a temple because of your many sins and rejection of God! You should instead ask yourself why 2,000 year exile (more than babylonian and asserian exile combined!). Those exhiles were clear. Why no prophets?
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis its in lev 4 and 5 an example is "When a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the LORD's holy things, he is to bring to the LORD as a penalty a ram from the flock". as for prayer hosea 14 "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously,
that we may offer our lips as sacrifices of bulls"
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 Nobody disagrees that a sacrifice is to be made for unintentional sins. Sacrifices are to be made for intentional sins as well! Finding one does not exclude the other.
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
Comment removed
moddie84 1 year ago
Comment removed
moddie84 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis and finally to your last point. why are the jews cursed for the last 2000 years? isaiah 53 answers that perfectly, when the gentiles say "yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; " Gentiles continually persecute the jews claiming it is God's curse, but one day will realize like Isaiah predicts that it was not God's curse but the nations own wrong doings that hurt the jews.
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 HAHAHA, which Isaiah 53 are you reading??? It continues...5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way;
and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis it says he was crushed BECAUSE of our inequities. It means when the nations sin, Israel suffers. You'll notice that throughout the tanakh. when Israel is in exile the nations always treat them terribly. It later says in Isaiah 53, that "our sins were on THEM." Jesus isn't a them.
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 seriously, what passage are you reading? Isaiah 53 goes on to say...For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
DID ISRAEL DIE???
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis its a figurative death, its used elsewhere Ez. 37:11-14, Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9.
And as for no deceit in their mouths zephaniah 3, says the remnant will speak no deceit, and have no sins.
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 Isa 53:7, speaking of the servant’s lamblike silence and submission in the midst of his suffering can not apply to the remnant, which was sometimes very vocally opposed to the sinful majority and even led resistance movements to overthrow their oppressors (as the Maccabees did in the 2nd century BCE); nor was the righteous remnant ever highly exalted to the point that kings bowed down before it/them, as stated explicitly in the end of Isaiah 52.
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis well like i said thats why you have to read zephaniah 3 "The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.
13 They will do no wrong; they will tell no lies.
A deceitful tongue will not be found in their mouths. "
Also Israel is called a priestly nation, and a priest to the nations throughout the tanakh. That is not a new concept. Israel is meant to help bring redemption and light to the nations.
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 yes, the Jews are to be a light to the Nations. How have you done this? I can see clearly how Jesus has done this. You have not provided a sufficient answer to why Jews have been exhiled for 2,000 years, more than 50% of our existence! And why has God been silent during this time? Where are his prophets???
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis I have already answered this Isaiah 53 4 "Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore, yet we ourselves esteemed him cursed, smitten of G- D and afflicted." this is saying that until the messiah, gentiles will believe Israel is suffering because of Israel's sin, when in fact its because the sins of the nations. Also Hosea and daniel predict the destruction of the 2nd temple.
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 ok, this is taking up too much of my time and not getting anywhere, if you would like to talk more, it will have to be by phone. private message me and we can set that up through skype or yahoo messenger or something.
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis and in answer to the whole lamb concept psalms 44:17-18, Psalms 44:22. Speak about Israel being led away like sheep and oppressed by the nations. Like I said nothing in Isaiah 53 is a foreign concept to Israel.
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 Of course it is not a foreign concept to Israel, it is about the Israeli Messiah!!! But a simple reading of the passage by a 5th grader will know the passage sounds more like Jesus than Israel which by the way is a new interpretation in the past 1500 years, before that rabbi's only interpretation was the Isaiah 53 referred to the Messiah. The Lubavitch also hold to this interpretation.
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis yes some rabbis said this is talking about the messiah, but they said it was about a messiah, and at the time that was written, anyone annointed, a king or a high priest was called messiah, and the righteous remnant of Israel.
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 Some Rabbis? The point is NO Rabbis were talking about Israel until 1500 years AFTER Jesus. You can not claim that there was no concept of "THe Messiah" at the time that was written. Why do you keep making stuff up?
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis to be honest a lot of modern churches also recognize isaiah 53 as speaking about Israel. I mean it is the 4th of 4 servant songs, and the other 3 are about Israel, as are chapters 52 and 54, so why would 53 be different
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 LOL. nice try! name just ONE!!! that is a modern church that things isaiah 53 is Israel. Do you make this up as you go along?
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis also in numbers 15 it says it EXPLICITLY sins unintentionally he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering.The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him,he will be forgiven...'But anyone who sins defiantly,whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people.
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 This is silly, even your rabbi doesn't believe this! You mean to tell me that during the Yom Kippur service as outlined in Leviticus chapter 16 every mention of "sin offering" sacrifice is merely for "unintentional sins" alone? You don't even know what you believe!!!
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis haha well don't argue with me, argue with tanakh. Thats what it says. sorry if that's troubling.
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 I have no problem with what the Tanakh says, even your rabbi knows that both intentional sins and unintentional sins require a sacrifice. Showing me a passage that says to make a sacrifice for an unintentional sin does not exclude intentional sins for also needing a sacrifice. Are you comprehending this?
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis how do you not understand numbers 15? It says when the sin is unintentional you make the sacrifice, but if it an intentional sin, they must be cut off, and can't have sacrifice. numbers 15 30 “‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31 Because they have despised the LORD’s word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’”
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 Wow, you like to take passages out of context don't you. This passage is about community issues. Num 15:22 “‘Now if you as a community ...community being aware of... the whole community ...25 ...make atonement for the whole Israelite community, ...a sin offering. 26 The whole Israelite community......... So if one person doesn't keep the law where the community does then they will be cut off, but if you read ANY other passage, you know one is not cut off for EVERY intentional sin!!!
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis what are you talking about? " 27 “‘But if just one person sins unintentionally, that person must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering....“‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD and must be cut off from the people of Israel." Thats one person not a community
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 yes, ONE PERSON in the CONTEXT of a COMMUNITY. Do you mean to tell me that you think EVERY PERSON SHOULD BE CUT OFF FOR ANY UNINTENTIONAL SIN??? Do you even listen to yourself?
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis i recommending doing a more thorough investigation in to rabbinical claims about isaiah 53. You'll notice that missionaries have misquoted or taken quotes out of context from most of these sources. And also it is important to understand that mashiach merely means anointed during the times of their writings, and that language was not used in order to refer to a final redeemer.
moddie84 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis and in the original hebrew translation Isaiah 53:8 says "From my peoples' sins, there was injury to them." Them is plural. Jesus is not a 'them.'
moddie84 1 year ago
@moddie84 try again. "8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished."
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis again modern translations have changed it to fit christianity, but if you check the masoretic texts, it will say "From my peoples' sins, there was injury to them."
moddie84 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis in addition the ONLY one called the servant in all of Isaiah is Israel/Jacob/Yeshurin(righteous remnant of Israel). And the 4th servant song starts at the end of Isaiah 52 "Behold My servant will prosper." Then it says that the servant will the kings of nations will be astonished, and then it leads in to "who would believe our report." The speaker are the kings of nations, it is what they will say when they are astonished.
moddie84 1 year ago
@answers4rabbis and don't say "its in a different chapter so its a different subject." The chapter breaks were introduced by the church, and were never in the original scriptures. It is clearly all one thought.
moddie84 1 year ago
and what about periods of time before the most recent period when there was no temple?
ipwnnewbs50 2 years ago
@ipwnnewbs50 Only two times before with no temple, the exiles which were a punishement for our disobedience. God promised to protect us and prosper us when we obey. You have a much bigger problem.
answers4rabbis 1 year ago
Comment removed
ipwnnewbs50 2 years ago