Leninism vs Fabianism: Two Branches of Collectivism [Part 1]

[Schniddo]

One of the biggest fallacies is the belief that you could somehow have capitalism without a state. As long as there is capitalism, there will be inequality and private property, and as long as that is so, you ned somebody to protect that property for you don't you! Not to mention a population healthy and able to do all the work in society...

[Schniddo]

Of course all that matter is to come to power - the idea is for the soviets (i.e. workers councils) to take over the state. ONLY THEN would the state wither away because it would become irrelevant. The Soviet project failed in Russia because a) it was so backwards economically and b) the country was ravaged by civil war and foreign invasion.

[Schniddo]

Marxism isn't based in 'idealism'. A socialist may be idealistic but Marx is best known for his analysis of capitalism which to this day is unsurpassed. Disciplines such as sociology are completely indebted to his methodology. There is a reason why big capital is interested in using socialism as the big bogeyman to scare us - because ultimately capitalism at its most effective (for those who benefit) is when it is at its most undemocratic.

[Schniddo]

He's not far off the mark when he describes the 'switching of hats' from communist to social democrat. However this does nothing to prove his underlying assumption which is essentially "government = bad ; markets = good". Socialism is at its root about democracy - giving people control over their own lives. Socialism without democracy is not socialism.

[Pwecko]

@Schniddo You say that democracy is about people having control over their own lives. It is not. In a democracy, the majority rules. All you need to control the country is to ensure that you control the majority. Democracy is very over-rated. See Democracy, The God That Failed, by Hans Herman Hoppe.

[Schniddo]

@Pwecko As opposed to minority rule like we have now? Where those that control the majority of the world's wealth have the most say in policy? That's a non-argument to me, but people should only fear democracy if they want to maintain current levels of inequality.

[Pwecko]

@Schniddo Ask yourself why the American government always stresses that it wants to introduce democracy to all the 'backward' countries of the world. It knows that if a democratically elected government is in place in some Middle Eastern or African country, all it needs to do is control the leaders of that government and it can control the country. If there is no government, things are a lot more difficult.

Inequality is, unfortunately, inevitable. Attempts at creating equality cause bloodshed

[Schniddo]

@Pwecko I am not talking about the US exporting (big 'D') democracy to countries i.e. setting up pro American / free market leaders. After all, the US supported people like Ben Ali, the Tunisian dictator of 20 or so years, who, in case you haven't been following the news, has just had to flee the country as the people rose up in protest and the unions declared a general strike. Real democracy is from below, as the Tunisians and the Egyptians are demonstrating.

[Pwecko]

@Schniddo I hope everything works out well in Egypt and Tunisia. I won't hold my breath though. Did you look up Democracy: the god that failed? There's a lecture on YT. Very interesting. Worth a listen.

Earlier you said that now the minority rule. Yet don't we have democracy? If not, what is democracy? What should it look like? What examples will the new govts in Egypt and Tunisia be able to look to for guidance to help them set up their systems?

[joepeeler34]

@Schniddo I agree with some of what you said, but the notion of the U.S. setting up free markets in other countries is in error. We don't have a free market in the U.S. We have a mixed economy with much socialism and corporatism (a kind of central planning) interjected. We don't care what the economic system of the country is so long as it is open to foreign investment and markets open to the west. Listen again to what Griffin is saying about the current system being Fabian Socialism.

[mikeoli]

@Pwecko I do not believe in monarchy so you are barking up the wrong tree

[Schniddo]

What a fantastic series of straw men this man has set up. The intellectual laziness/dishonesty in this video is staggering!

[connielane]

Who were the one's that slaughtered 60 million Christian Russians and destroyed all the Christian Churches but left the Synagogues standing while they called themselves atheist? Who were the real inventors of communism?

[babyboominbastard]

@connielane Not too many people are getting to the truth. Congratulations. The world has been deceived by the holohoax. Check out Vatican Assassins on YT. It helps put some more pieces of the puzzle together. In a nutshell, we are in a war of good against evil.

[Kelthuzad126]

"workers of the world unite!" Andy Stern comes to mind.

[TheIdealist97]

Great video! Loved it

[bullpup33]

You guys must be poly-sci majors. You guys can't call a spade a spade. Yes, the old man is right. Commies, leftist, pinkos, what ever you want to call them did not go away with the fall of the Berlin wall. Men are to egotistical to admit they are wrong.

[debtinterest]

idiotic reactionary bullshit!

[robw1031]

This Philosophy is not only flawed but is flat out psychopathic

[grisflyt]

This is a joke, right?

Off the to of my head, religion, nationalism, conservatism are three other examples of collectivism.

"I don't think that pointing out the historically proven flaws of excessive democracy is extremist in any way."

Yes it is extremist. Because there is no example of "excessive democracy" in history.

[MrUltraviolence]

Social democracy is not desirable and has many negative aspects, but it doesn't make it justifiable spreading more or less false claims and claiming that social democrats have a goal of a ultra-socialist society. On the other hand collectivist "capitalism" and conservatism is proven as often being about deception of the populace, keeping power for the sake of keeping power, etc, sacrificing groups and individuals, etc. This is not being mentioned, though, as they aren't the evil commies.

[MrUltraviolence]

G. Edward Griffin, education: BA in speech and communications, Certified Financial Planner. LMAO. Who the fuck is this idiot? He barely has any idea about what he is talking about.

[allbeehive]

In which part of his argument is he incorrect?

[MrUltraviolence]

Well, starting out claiming that socialism and collectivism is pro-state. Socialism, as such, is not pro-state. Socialism is a very broad term. Collectivism is even broader. State socialism is as much a wing of collectivism as tradionalism and more hardline conservatism, such as national conservatism or the politics of the so-called religious right in the US. Even though consevatives more often then not are capitalist, anticapitalist conservatives do exist.

[MrUltraviolence]

this is though a bit irrelevant, as the point is that the goal of conservatism is preserving the existing condition of a society as collective, which may well happen through governmental invervention, anti-libertarianism, attacks on civil liberty, protectionism and the like. The big difference is that most of the western world is built on liberal ideals, some of which indeed would get preserved by conservatives.

[MrUltraviolence]

Claiming that communism as such is a pro-state ideology is also very inaccurate. Certain marxist ideologies support a (even totalitarian) state as a form of a transitional phase from capitalism/bourgeois government to communism, which is an stateless condition, where democratic workers' collectives control their own means of production, etc, without any government intervention whatsoever. The basis is selv-government and not "state tyrrany".

[MrUltraviolence]

Claiming that communism is undefinable is also quite much nonsense. Even though I am an anarcho-capitalist, I find this video being simply biased, unobjective right-wing propaganda. Claiming that social democrats (here, "fabianists") are bolsheviks is preposterous, as social democrats today bear more resemblance with social/American liberals than actual socialists. They come towards the middle from the left, while social liberals come to the middle, right to left.

[newnoggin2]

Everybody is arguing philosophy and you have your pocket dictionary out. The debate (which you evidently missed) is not about definitions. As for your comment about his education, it is empty as the rest of your drivel. I own an engineering company and my best, by far , engineer never went to college. You make the common mistake of confusing schooling with education.

[newnoggin2]

You never answered allbeehive's question in anything resembling logic. Jury is out on my end.

[motiongraphics81]

Fuck collectivism!

[irishtrotskyist]

wow who would have expected a member of the extreme reactionary John Birch Society to not have a DAMN clue what he was talking about

[motiongraphics81]

Wow, who would have expected a Communist to label people that give a shit about their country and their individual identities as extremist?

[irishtrotskyist]

please don't give me that bullshit, the John Birch Society is rabidly anti-democratic, they provided funding to the overthrow of Arbenz in Guatemala, and to help Pinochet in Chile. so much for giving a shit about their countries.

[motiongraphics81]

Anti democratic, or pro-republic? No, they give a shit about America, but that's about it. No one's perfect.

[irishtrotskyist]

how? its not in american interests to invade and oppress other nations

[motiongraphics81]

Touche, I'll agree with you on that - it's just that groups like John Birch usually have little effect on foreign policy. I'd address those concerns to the Council on Foreign Relations or the Rand Corporation, if your concern is about private groups that advocate wars.

I personally prefer a non interventionist foreign policy, like the one advocated by Ron Paul. That's where the Birchers have their ups and downs, they DO want the USA to get out of the UN, a move I totally support.

[motiongraphics81]

Big ups on Ireland ditching the EU, by the way. Given the Capitalist Revolution that's been taking place in Ireland as of late, I'm considering moving there when things here in the states get all 1937 on me. After hundreds of years of getting shat upon, It's refreshing to see Ireland prosper. Proof that real Capitalism - not the Corporatist nonsense we have here in the states - works. Which is funny, because the Neo-Cons are essentially Trotskyites themselves. 0_o

[irishtrotskyist]

not so sure about your point re the irish economy, we're screwed here at the moment cos the boom was built on credit. like the man who built his house on the seashore, we're about to be engulfed. many people rejected the EU because it interferes with our social welfare and public services

[irishtrotskyist]

well, john foster dulles and his brother were members of this society in the 1950's. they both wished for a 'rollback' of communism/stalinism, and the imposition of free-market economies on eastern europe,the USSR and China. i'm sure you'll agree, as a former secretary of defence, he did have clout at the highest level. i know what you mean by those other groups, but i don't think any of these groups should be excluded from guilt, as i see it, groups like the AEI deserve a share of the blame

[nurbSoldier]

Well, it is fairly obvious that John Foster Dulles did not come close to having his way, as evidenced by events of the opposite nature occuring.

[irishtrotskyist]

all of these various groups are ideological organs of the capitalist state, in my opinion. don't know how much my opinion counts for, i'm a bolshevik-leninist so i'm bound to be biased. i think ron paul's 'isolationist' ideal's are unrealistic in an age where the USA is the worlds hyperpower. also, as someone who has studied the writings of lenin, griffins points about lenin and his quote are actually misattributed.

[nurbSoldier]

The United States is no hyperpower, it is a cripple with a scary costume. So long as it continues to bury itself in ever expanding debt, it will continue to dig its own grave.

[shanklinmike]

All production is capitalist by definition.

watch?v=kxXhqxtmHjo

I also disagree with the interventionist foreign policy!

watch?v=rRYt4CGISm4

Centralized monopolies always use force and destroy civil liberties!

Peace!

watch?v=RJeVSTQWaNc

[nurbSoldier]

rabidly anti-democratic? Why? Because Edward Griffin and the John Birch Society correctly point out the dangers of the excesses of democracy, how they point out that not all participants are kind or rational, how the little guy must be rescued from a lynch mob and so on and so forth?

I don't think that pointing out the historically proven flaws of excessive democracy is extremist in any way.

[numberonedon1]

I think this is a one sided, biased account of Lenin. his successor on the other hand was where the socialist democracy failed. I am not in favor of communism but my country has been central socialist democracy since the the 1930s.

Marxists are idealistic however taking the necessary steps to ensure a greater distribution of wealth is not a difficult task for example a public health care system and a welfare state, my countries health system is the envy of the world.

[shanklinmike]

It is unsustainable and in the long-run the government corporation monopoly will fail! Your country oversubsidizes healthcare and it is a drain on the economy. The truth is coerced forced systems look great at first but history shows us time and time again that they cannot hold and caused more shortages, price increases, and lower quality than people living in competitive markets! Healthcare is no different. Peace!

watch?v=18EWsXmdZtU

watch?v=y428AAUBR5c

watch?v=jD2SwDK7PCw

[paulb0188]

you forgot the most obvious form of "collectivism" - libertarian socialism or "anarchism".

Leninism was a manifestation of capitalism, which used "collectivism" as an ideological/political device to maintain power.

[nurbSoldier]

Everyone who uses collectivism uses it for power.

[joeypk12]

The guy who sits opposite Griffin is a complete buffoon. He makes Griffin seem like a genius for bashing Socialism. See his website for more ridiculous propaganda on how Global Warming is a hoax.

[louis12346]

Global warming is a hoax its for UN Carbon TAX

[majorMcpharter]

Leninism resulted in state capitalism,Not socialism/communism.

[joeypk12]

Well said. And America is the best possible country for the world's first example of socialism.

[chgoyette]

Comrades, it appears we have a Leninist in power here in America. Look closely at the works of George W. Bush and decide for yourself.

Remember the mighty words of George W. Bush as a presidential candidate, "I am a uniter, not a divider". I assert that no man in American history has caused more division than George W.

[joeypk12]

Agreed.  A great example of Marx's Theory of Alienation in action.

[ffleming]

One day with Ron Paul's help we'll get back to the free market of the early 1900s. If it weren't for the stupid government forcing children to not work, they'd have a much better work ethic and learn the value of bootstrap-pulling

[JackRackem]

Good point, we are only under the grip of nanny statism because of those fantasies written by socialist agitators like Upton Sinclair and Ida Tarbell that brainwashed America against the free market. Turn Back the clock people! Remember, America had never had a single financial crash or downturn before the Federal Reserve was created.

[joeypk12]

Yes.  Thank God for child labor, safety deregulation, sweatshops, and wage slavery.

In a military state, generals occupy the seats of the Board of Education. In America, those seats are filled by capitalists.

Return the power to the have-nots? I think I heard a shot...

[AmexLibertarian]

Nice posting. I think these ideas and rebuttle of bad ideas (socialism, collectivism, fabianism and etc...) needs to be discussed more.

[waypor1]

Fabianism is based upon in inevitibility of gradualness. Its exactly what has been happening in this country for over a hundred years. People seem to take change in stride, its why we are having more and more social issues, and its how we have been brainwashed by our Laws. We are becoming a communist state right here in America!

[joeypk12]

Fabianism, or social democracy, deals primarily with economic law. What laws are you referring to?

Are you really afraid of an America that regulates big business, supports working families by protecting unions, takes steps to close the rich-poor gap, and provides universal healthcare? If that's the "communist state" America is moving toward, then it's about time!

[waypor1]

Laws are constantly being written to strip your rights away and your privacy, s1959 homeland security bill recently drafted to deal with homegrown terrorism. Laws written by insurance, health care,oil companys, educations system laws etc etc. Doctrinization of these laws effect every aspect of your life. How long have you been on this planet? I've noticed a little change since 1960. and its not for the better. all government fails eventually this one is heading threre..

[waypor1]

America doesnt regulate big bus to protect families, what america are you living in? What you wrote is the opposite of what is happening in this country. Are you a communist expert? just asking no offence implied. I really don't trust most peoples opionion I trust what I see in this world the rest is rhetorical.