A4O II: A Brief History of Market Anarchism

[MrBlakskwrl]

this is really good.

[Ilikenuman]

You missed this guy: Benjamin Tucker

[eboyd32]

"anarcho"-capitalists are not anarchists. sorry. anarchism is purely socialist, whether they support markets or not. the Friedman's, Rothbard, Ayn Rand, etc., are not anarchists. the Austrian school of economics supports the exact opposite of anarchism. as for Spooner, he was markedly anti-capitalist. stop lumping him in with the rest of the fascists you mentioned.

[XOmniverse]

@eboyd32 You should read the dictionary definitions of anarchism, markets, and fascism, and get back to me when you can actually defend your notions.

[eboyd32]

@XOmniverse dictionary definitions are remarkably terrible at defining terms in the political realm. anarchism is derived from a Greek term meaning "no rulers", not "no government" as the dictionary seems to suggest. anarchists oppose all forms of illegitimate authority, including hierarchical workplace relationships. markets are simply structures in society that allow trade between persons. do i believe in a free market? no. however, i believe in markets. fascism is the marriage of corporate...

[eboyd32]

...and state power. when corporations become the state (as in a monopoly of force over a definite territory, thanks to private property enforcement), that is the purest form of fascism possible. fuck corporatism, it's corporatocracy. so obviously, my definitions are spot on. it is you who needs to read more and put down the Rothbard because his ideas are messing with your sense of reality.

[XOmniverse]

@eboyd32 I'd debate this more with you if you weren't being a dick. As far as I know, no person you cited supports "corporatism" or government granted corporate privilege. Get your head out of your ass.

[turbofritz2]

@eboyd32 Anarchism is rightwinged libertarian in nature. NOT socialist

Mixing socialism or communism with anarchism is so fucking pointless, they are directly opposite ideologies.

[muridsilat]

@eboyd32 - Yeah, who do these people think they are to dare question the strict, unwavering rules of anarchy?!!!

[Aryaba]

@eboyd32 Nice to see idiocy distilled into its purest form, manifest in yourself.

[turbofritz2]

@eboyd32 Anarchy is anti state involvement, no rulers, no central planning, no welfare.

It's rebellious

Communism and socialism is however a central planning, goverment providance and goverment planning.

It makes absolutly no sense to be Anarcho communist. No matter how you put it. Anarchy means no laws and no state.

[Jollyprez]

Except that the word "Anarchy" has been redefined by its opponents. Because of that, you have to spend too much time trying to yank the term back into your grasp, by which time the listener has grown bored or bemused. I'd use the word "Voluntaryism" which is both descriptive and hard to redefine due to its inherent ( intrinsic? ) meaning.

[jackriter]

Lysander Spooner was against wage labor, rent, profit, and interest. Spooner was anti-capitalist.

[XOmniverse]

An anti-capitalist that ran a competing mail delivery company? :P

[jackriter]

Yes. The "company" was pretty much just him. Market anarchism does not mean capitalism. if any market were to exist in anarchism it would be Mutualist (of which Individualism is a sub-sect).

[icfnord]

>> if any market were to exist in anarchism it would be Mutualist (of which Individualism is a sub-sect).

Cooperation (mutual aid) is a form of capitalism.

>> Market anarchism does not mean capitalism

Both the words "market" (i.e. a place where people engage in free trade) and "anarchism" (the absence of goverment) are synonyms for capitalism.

[jackriter]

I told you on the What Is Anarchy video that I'm done with your bullshit.

Your logic is: Everything good in the world=Capitalism. Everything bad=Socialism. And that evil socialist reptilian supervillans are controlling the government through the Illuminati.

Don't reply, I'm done with you.

[icfnord]

>> Everything good in the world=Capitalism. Everything bad=Socialism

Yep. That's the first law of economics. From now on though you could simply say "The Lesson" or "the price system" or "opportunity cost" or "Broken Window Fallacy" or "Common Sense" and I think most people on this thread will know what you are talking about.

8=======D

[VanDoodah]

The company had offices in several major cities. How was the company Spooner working on his own?

[VanDoodah]

Regardless of whether or not Spooner was a capitalist, he was definitely a market anarchist.

[AlexandrianDoctorate]

Google: Alexandrian Philosophy Politics

For Philosophy

For Intelligent Politics

For a 21st Century Enlightenment

[jackriter]

Anarchism is against hierarchy

tough shit "anarcho" capitalists

[overmind25]

So what if a person wants to live under a hierchial system? Will you use force to stop them? It depends how you define capitalist. If you mean the state kind then we are against it because it is not a free market.

[jackriter]

That kind of question is rediculous, nobody wants to be in a hierarchial system unless they are at the top or doing well. It's like asking: "well what if the state doesn't want to go away?" Freedom is difficult to define, you may want the freedom to own a business, while I want the freedom to access the means of production freely. I don't want to respect property "rights", and if you try to enforce them than you are restricting my freedom to fufil my needs.

[overmind25]

Not really. Some people (though I tend to believe it is small) like to have someone to tell them what to do. It would have to be voluntary hierarchy of course! Anyway stealing is violating someone else autonomy and cannot be voluntary unless of course they agree to just give it away which I suppose would not be theft.

[jackriter]

Stay away from the BDSM clubs ;)

People steal because it is the only way to fufil their needs, which aren't being fufilled in "law abiding" ways. (mostly) To me, a boss profiting from my labor is stealing so once again, freedom is all in the eye of the beholder. (I am not free to access the products of mine and others' labor freely, but the boss loses his freedom of property rights)

I understand voluntary hierarchy, but when it is forced or systematic it is unjust.

[overmind25]

We cannot just demand our needs to be fufilled. Those products or services have to be produced/provided. Voluntarism is the key. Working owned companies should not be banned but if you enter into an agreement with a boss who provides certain goods for you to use and a wage in exchange for your labor then no you should not be able to steal from him and that was not part of the agreement.

[jackriter]

Goods are provided by fellow workers, not by capitalists, capitalists just buy and sell goods, not produce. Worker owned businesses are forced to compete with capitalist businesses and as they are labor foused rather than capital focused they don't do as well. This would also mean some kind of private property, which a worker owned business would oppose. However to function in a capitalist market it would need to become capitalist in itself and lose focus from the worker to succeed.

[overmind25]

Yes but many capitalists once were workers and some business owners work in their stores. I do not agree that because a worker owned factory would have to make a profit (net gain) that automatically means it wouldn't focus on its workers succeeding.  It seems the opposite to me.

[jackriter]

I wouldn't say many capitalists as most are born into it. I'm talking about the Borguesie, not the Petty Borgeusie (small business owners who work with their employees). Worker cooperatives are naturaly less competitive as they are more focused on the laborer and less on competitiveness. Many worker coops struggle nowadays for the same reasons. However taxes do have an impact too (something we can both hate).

[overmind25]

Well I believe most millionaires in the US were not born into it. I'll have to look into it again.

[VanDoodah]

What about voluntary hierarchy.

Socialist anarchism is hilariously stupid.

[IIThesaviour]

Look at me, i recognise the state as an oppressive instituition but wage slavery is the shit! Fucking anarcho-syndicalists thinking they know things!

[VanDoodah]

What?

Hierarchy is fine. Grow up. Anarcho-syndicalism is a dead ideology - even Murray Bookchin acknowledged that.

"Wage slavery" is a nonsensical concept.

[lukeev]

Is there gonna be a third part sooooon Mr.Xommy wommy?! Pwweeeeease!

[XOmniverse]

There will be. Just trying to decide what to cover next.

[TruthHidden]

Murray Rothbard could arguably be seen as the most influential Anarcho-Capitalist in history, and seems to have emerged at the right time, causing productive schisms and groupings. I am looking forward to the next addition.

[BWF89]

Good brief history.

What is your opinion on the market anarchist vs anarcho-capitalist semantics debate? Can the two terms be used interchangeably or is anarcho-capitalism a type of market anarchism?

[XOmniverse]

I tend to use market anarchism more broadly than anarcho-capitalism. Anarcho-capitalism seems to refer to a more specific type of market anarchism.

[TruthHidden]

I am glad you have decided to continue this segment, as Objectivists seem like a logical "conversion" target. No Treason is one of my favorite essays, and I am glad you mentioned Lysander Spooner in this video. I also have come to prefer the term Market Anarchism, as anarcho capitalism tends to focus on a specific type of market anarchism, often excluding mutualism and heterarchial "black market" agorism.

[Moragauth]

BTW Mises also held the secession down to the individual idea, where it was feasible, leaving him open to interpretation.

[Moragauth]

Good video but you really butchered Proudhon's name. :P

[dakshinamurti]

hehehe, true :) It's funny xomniverse is so knowledgeable and didn't know that it reads (PRU, like in prune or prudent, with stronger R, like the sound of a motor) and ON (this is harder since you guys don't really have that sound...like in montpellier, montparnasse, dupONt, etc) :) Of course this is totally irrelevant to the excelent content, but I figure, why not pronounce it right, so, here it is :)

[Moragauth]

I learnt French, so I have that sound. :P

[lengthyounarther]

I speak Icelandic.

[overmind25]

The rational animal

[lengthyounarther]

Nice vid, however I think No Treason only covers the inapplicability of the constitution to people who did not sign it. In so doing it does justify secession, but does not postulate that secession will necessarily lead to anarchy, though I suppose it does.

[luckyday24]

I'll be watching for A4O III

[Rorshak1313]

I think that covers the biggest parts of it.

[lukeev]

Awesome!