Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Cathedral - New Orleans

[Loiginer]

Take out that seats and put veils!

IC XC + NI KA

[adamantis4657]

@Loiginer: Yeah - and start to be an orthodox parish! Not that pseudo orthodoxy....

[adamantis4657]

Pews are not allowed in the orthodox church and women have to cover their hair. It is a shame for a woman to pray without cover.

It is also an apostolic tradition that women and men are seperated in the Temple of God.

This is pseudo orthodoxy!

[Carna12345]

@adamantis4657 It is also a biblical tradition that people are stoned for various crimes, but Jesus came down from Heaven to make changes to tradition because the human race was stagnating. He was actually very feminist for his day and age—shouldn't we follow in His footsteps as much as possible as the times allow?

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: Sorry but only one who absolutly don't know orthodox teaching and understanding can write such things.

Because Holy Tradition is directly FROM God (the Holy Scriputres distinguish between Tradition of man and Holy Tradition which comes directly from God)

The first is not important for Salvation the second is extremly important - without NO ONE is saved!

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: To sit on pews is not only heterodox and foreign to Holy Orthodoxy - NO it is blasphemous! How can we sit on chairs and pews when Angels prostrate before the Holy Throne of God? Christ REALLY comes down and is worshipped by the Cherubim and Seraphim (as many Holy Elders have seen), the Most Holy Theotokos is also present and all Saints...and WE SIT ON CHAIRS???

One must be crazy to sit! All our prayers are empty words than: Let us worship and fall down ....etc....while sitting..

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: Another quote from the Bible (also remember Eli's sons - God ordered that they should be stoned because they served Him negligently)

Jermemia 48:10:

“Cursed is he who does the work of the LORD with slackness"

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: We also know many stories form the lives of the Saints - that it is very important to behave proper in the Temple of the LORD:

In the life of St. Niphon the great we can read that he had a vision of the Theotokos once during Divine Liturgy, he could see with a multidude of Angels, She blessed all who stood with reverence and the fear of God and who prostrated over those who stood not proper She wept bitterly ( because it is a horrible sin)

[Carna12345]

@adamantis4657 I'm not talking about sitting on pews. I apologize for not making myself clear. I'm talking about women covering their heads to pray while men do not have to do so. When did Jesus say that women should cover their hair to pray? Are their prayers not as fervent without head coverings as they are with them?

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: Well, it was practices by hebrew women - still orthodox hebrew women cover their hair. The Most Holy Theotokos WE ALWAYS see with covered hair. St. Paul says that it is a shame for every women to pray without a cover! The apostolic constitutions order that women cover their hair, the holy fathers, the lives of the saints etc....So it is clear - still in russian churches, serbian....women cover their hair.

This was also done in greek churches - until they got modernised!

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: There is the funny story of St. Matrona of constantinopel who hide herself in a monastery (because of her husband) for monks!!!! When she told the abbot that she is a women and not a man he wondered and immediatly asked how she received communion without a hair cover? And he said she should can not receive it without! He told her to cover her head and when she would be asked she should say it is because of her teethache!

Do u see - women were not even allowed to receive communion

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: That is also the reason why nuns have covered hair. Also the iconography of the holy orthodox church tells us that women always were covered! Look at icons, holy women Saints have covered hair - or a crow (which is also a cover).

I also know a story from an american women. She had cancer and prayed unceasingly to the Theotokos to heal her - once the Theotokos appeared and said: I will heal u because u honored me when u covered your hair. And she was healed (that is really true)

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: And Carna when u look at old fotos, u will see that it was the same in greek churches.

All those innovations: pews, organs, new calendar, women improper dressed, men and women mixed in church ....etc....

There are good books on that topic: Constantin Cavarnos; On Holy Tradition (very good)

And now when u tell greeks that those things are not ok, they get angry!

[Carna12345]

@adamantis4657 But how can you distinguish whether this is MAN'S tradition, or HOLY tradition? The world changes, Adamantis, otherwise we would reject evolution and still believe that the world is under 10,000 years old, even though we have overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Just because something is in the Bible does not mean that it is meant to be taken as holy truth. The Bible was written by humans. Many were inspired by God--I don't deny it or doubt it--but they were still human.

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: Holy Tradition can be found everywhere; in Holy Scripture, in the writings of the Holy Fathers, the Holy Canons, and so on..... so we EXACTLY know what is divine and what is human.

St. John Chrysostom says: When it is Tradition (in church) do not search anymore!

The Holy Canons also set EVERYONE under ANATHAM who dars to set aside even ONE PART of Tradition (7th Ecumenical Synod)

[Carna12345]

@adamantis4657 That's kind of silly. When it is Tradition do not search anymore? Jesus came to earth because people were following the letter of the Tradition without looking at the spirit of the Tradition. And I don't understand how, since Holy Tradition is everywhere, we know exactly what is divine and what is human. Human tradition is everywhere too. Because we're human and therefore fallible, we'll definitely get them confused.

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: I hope u know what stuff u are writing? Now u say St. John Chrysostom is silly? St. John meant when there is a Tradition of the church - there are not questions anymore.

No - the Holy Fathers were not "normal" humans - they were guided by the Holy Spirit. The "consensus patrum" is infallible. Would we not have any such source - we would not know truth.

Read St. Vincent of Lerin - where truth can be found.

Sorry - but as I see - they have not learned u much about orthodoxy!

[Carna12345]

@adamantis4657 You're confusing the subjects. I am not ridiculing him, I am ridiculing the saying, which is not in any way a part of him. It is only attributed to him. But that's besides the point.

Guided, most definitely. Guided completely and utterly on every word? Probably not. Because we have free will, and it is very rare for someone to surrender him/herself to God that completely.

As interesting as this conversation is, I'm going to have to stop myself from commenting more.

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: I am not confusing the subjects. Yes - u did. The next is that u say: the Liturgy of St. John is not from him - it is only attributed to him...?

Yes guided by the Holy Spirit - not in every word. Now u are confusin the subjects - because we are not talking about one word or two words of one special Father. We are talking about Holy Tratition which is mentioned by ALL.

Even your approach is completely foreign to Holy Orthodoxy!

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: Yes the world changes - that is true. But God does not change - He is the same ...and so is the church. We are not of the world - remember we are only FROM the world. How often the Holy Apostles said: do not assimilate to the world......

The Bible is the Word of God - that is orthodox Dogma. Together with the writing of the Holy Fathers, the Canons, the decicions of the Synods = orthodox faith.

Evolution is not a fact - and many Elders have written against evolution

[Carna12345]

@adamantis4657 The Holy Apostles said that many times, yes. How often could they actually follow that? Not all the time. Proven by Thomas, who doubted, because it is impossible in human terms to rise from the dead. Just because someone is holy and lives a holy life does not mean that that person is perfect, blameless, and always right.

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: Yes - and that' s the reason why we have to look at the "consensus patrum"! As I told u - that is infalible.

The source of truth!

And I don't know where u want to go - where should that discussion lead? What is your point? To say the modernists are right - but the Holy Fathers were wrong? Are what u want to say?

[Carna12345]

@adamantis4657 This is a fascinating conversation, I truly mean that. I am arguing because I am trying to figure out what the truth is. I don't know if I can accept that any one religious denomination is perfect--I'm sure Catholics and Protestants and Hindus and Jews and Muslims would have argued just as vehemently for their own religions, and believed every word as you seem to. So I thank you for this discussion. You've provided me with a lot of information to think about.

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: Well we have to search. Christ said: Search and u will find....Knock on the door and it will be opened!

When we do not search - we can not find. When we do not knock the door will not be open. So it is good when u search - because it means that u will find one day!

It is much work to find truth - most people are too lax!

[Carna12345]

@adamantis4657 Human and subject to human failings, like faulty memories and secondhand accounts. (Why else would there be so many different versions of the accounts of Jesus's life?) St. Paul, while no doubt inspired by God, was also influenced by human tradition when he lived. He probably did not intend his letters to become Scripture like they did. If you look at him as a man and not as the author of the Epistles, it is pretty obvious that he's sharing his own personal human opinions as well.

[adamantis4657]

@Carna12345: Carna - I don't know what u want to prove here? That the Bible is wrong, the Holy Fahters too? The Holy Synods and Holy Canons also...

Come on - open your eyes. It is not only Paul - u would have to set aside the whole Tradition of the orhtodox church, the Holy Fathers, the Saints, etc.... u know where u end?

IN PROTESTANTISM!

[Carna12345]

@adamantis4657 I am not trying to say that everything is wrong, only that SOME things are wrong. Because we are human.

[h0llowc0st]

Yeah, attendance does look a little sparse. Was this video taken on a Sunday morning?

[WeenisLad]

Yikes. Attendance is looking a little sparse. Unless everyone is bunched at the back.

[gCuezy]

@WeenisLad Unfortunately that is not the case.

[AnotherAppleMacbook]

What song is playing? It is so beautiful.

[gCuezy]

@AnotherAppleMacbook In the beginning? It's "Kirie Eleison" by Divna Ljubojeviæ...

[AnotherAppleMacbook]

@gCuezy Thank you so much! I've been wondering what its called!

[blc72000]

I like!

[VivaPink]

Iconography in the church is amazing.

[rossdrinkwater]

"I can't see Jesus yet"?

[gCuezy]

An Icon of Christ is (generally) at the highest point of the Church... In this case, it was inside the big dome and I was trying to catch it on video. :)

[abobhenry1]

Haha, nice. I didn't know you filmed me commenting on the smell.

[gCuezy]

haha.. I thought you might be upset if you saw it...