@airsoftdude13 And the difference would be exactly what? Waterboarding doesn't leave marks? Tell you what. You go get waterboarded, post a video of it, then come back and tell me it wasn't torture.
@Team503 I agree, besides any interrogation techique used to cause pain and suffering is torture, it doesn't matter if it leaves physical wounds or not.
The goal of interrogation is to get truthful information, so the only reason to use waterbording would be if it could get more truthful information then a more traditional form of interrogation.
So can anyone explain how waterbording would elicit more truthful information then a more standard form of interrogation?
@washingtonwasstudly The way the human brain works is that, after too long, it breaks. Therefore you could sit down with a terrorist, twist his arm a bit, and ask him "Where are the bombs?" He could say "Their in London." Then you're satisfied, so you look in London. The, next day, Paris explodes into tiny bits (not that I'd care) and you're SOL. However, with waterboarding you can take torture past that and get the 'real' truth. And if done correctly, waterboarding won't kill you.
“Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.”
@wes23579 • The C.I.A.’s 1963 interrogation manual stated: Intense pain is quite likely to produce false confessions, concocted as a means of escaping from distress. A time-consuming delay results, while investigation is conducted and the admissions are proven untrue. During this respite the interrogatee can pull himself together. He may even use the time to think up new, more complex ‘admissions’ that take still longer to disprove.
Google the words - experts enhanced interrogation doesn't work - you will find testimony of hundreds of CIA, Army and FBI interrogators all saying pretty much the exact same thing. The only people you can find who say waterboarding works are all people who are in danger of being prosecuted for doing it.
@pureevilfnord Dunno, just repeating a conversation that I had with a co-worker that was in the military. I guess he looked into it because he found it interesting. True, the whole London/Paris thing was was a cheesy example, but that's why its called an example. He still said that the mind has a break point and the problem is getting past that without killing someone. That's why water boarding is the "big thing" nowadays. And it may not work every time but it works MORE often than other ways.
@wes23579 Evidence does not back up what your friend said, even if he was "military". It has been proven time and again that it is one of the worst ways to gather evidence. The jury is not out on this. You make statements as if they are absolutely true and they are demonstrably not.
@pureevilfnord Yeah, so I'm just going off of common sense here and say that I think you're full of shit. I know you're playing "expert" here and everything, but I'm pretty sure that if I got waterboarded, I would tell anyone anything. I'm also pretty sure you would too. That's evidence enough for me. There for I DO say it as if its true.
@wes23579 Is it common sense to ignore the facts? I'm not playing the expert, I WENT AND LOOKED IT UP. I found the experts to hear out what they say instead of going off the words of a guy at work and using "common sense". I quoted a US ARMY and CIA FIELD MANUAL fer Chrissakes. You quoted a coworker. Come on, people, for the first time in ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY, we have the internet where we can find just about ANY piece of information in SECONDS and we don't even bother.
@pureevilfnord Yeah. You're right. You CAN find anything on the internet. I googled "Waterboarding doesn't work" and found basically everything that you're saying. I also looked up "waterboarding DOES work." Ever heard the names Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or Abu Faraj al-Libi? We waterboarded the hell out of them before it was banned, and told us where to find the house where we caught BIn Laden. I rest my case.
@wes23579 AND if YOU had read further, you would have discovered that the information we got from those two guys was gotten through TALKING. They WERE waterboarded, but that isn't what worked. Again, if you pay attention - the ONLY people who say waterboarding works are the people who are in danger of being prosecuted for doing it. Remember, the United States has EXECUTED people in the past for waterboarding.
@pureevilfnord No, but i did find a crap-ton of left-wingers that wanted to cover their asses. A lot of them just didn't want to look stupid after saying it doesn't work. Anyways, what about Abu Zubaida? I would LOVE to hear your explanation on him. He told us everything (accurately) within the first 35 seconds....and then we waterboarded him another 83 times after that. (Oops)
"Abu Zubaydah was transferred to Guantanamo in September 2006 where he and other former CIA detainees are held in Camp 7 where conditions are the most isolating. He has never been charged, despite being accused for years by US authorities. The United States government now admits Abu Zubaydah was never a member of al Qaeda, nor involved in the 1998 African embassy bombings or the attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001." - Wikipedia - 20 seconds to look up.
@pureevilfnord Is it common sense to ignore the facts? Lol. Using Wikipedia as a source? Shame on you.
And 9/11? Who mentioned that? The reason we took him in in the first place was for info on other leaders. you make him sound as if he didn't do anything. Unless he was hiding under that burka to stay out of the sun. he was guilty as hell.
@pureevilfnord Sadly the "right vs left game" does exist (ESPECIALLY in the media). Its like reading the Washington Post vs watching Fox news. They'll present totally opposite views on the same subjects, whether that means leaving things out or stretching the truth, it doesn't matter as long as they stay "credible." If you haven't realized that yet, you might have some problems.
Hey, I'm supposed to make a short add AND movie,30-60seconds / 5-10mins long, on Gender Based Violence.
I am going to focus on child sexual abuse in street children,especially keeping in view the young girls from poor areas.
I don't want to make a documentary type movie and was wondering if ne1 cld give me some things that come to their mind regarding this topic.(low budget & 3-4people to cast) What kind of concept do you think I should go with?
you place a wet towel over their mouth, and dump water on them. simulates drowning. having their mouth open, chugging on water CAN ACTUALLY DROWN THEM.
#1. the cia is only 1 of hundreds of agencies that use waterboarding 2. george bush had nothing to do with the OK to use waterboarding 3. waterboarding done right does not fall under any of the laws of torture 3. waterboarding leaves no marks on the person and has no phsycal effects after it is over 4.considering the technics used by other countrys waterboarding isnt really that bad5. WATERBOARDING IS NOT TORTURE, torture is pulling out finger nails burning the bottoms of feet cutting of heads
@arkangel8419 1. so what just because others do it doesn't make it of. 2. His Vice president seemed to know about it. 3. UN defines it as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession" I think done right it does cause severe suffering. 4. again; so what? there are worse tortures out there probably but that doesn't make it ok. 5. is a repeat.
@arkangel8419 Then, if it's not torture, and if it's not that bad, you don't mind trying it don't you? *It's a rhetorical question of course, I wouldn't wish this to anyone, even my worst ennemies...)
@carlairving Yeah good comeback after i pretty much shot down your whole arguement. OH YEAH & BY THE WAY BEFOR YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH TRY TAKING A LOOK AT MY VIDEOS, YOU MIGHT LIKE THE ONE CALLED "WATERBOARDING TORTURE OR NOT!" DUMBASS
Anyway, 1) your video completely lacks content, and the acting is pityfull
2) The UN stated waterboarding as torture... But then again, what does the UN experts knows about it compared to 2 duded who tried it for a minute in their bathroom right?
@carlairving tHAT WASNT ANY ACTING MORON!2 tHE UN HAS NOT YET DECIDED ON WEITHER OR NOT IT IS TORTURE AS OF RIGHT NOW IT IS CALLED "INHANCED INTERIGATION" YOUR A DUMB TROLLER THAT CANT EVEN BE MAN ENOUG TO ADMITE THAT MAYBE HIS VIEWS MIGHT BE A LITTLE WRONG. i HAVE ANSWERED ALL YOUR QUESTIONS U HAVE NOT ANSWERD 1 OF MINE. HOW BOUT THIS ONE. wHAT SHOULD WE DO WHEN TRYING TO GET INFO? ASK THEM NICE? JUST ANSWER ME THAT & HOW DOES IT LACK CONTENT? THATS WHAT WATER BOARDING IS.?
@arkangel8419 1) no you never answered any of my questions. Starting by what do you meant by comeback...
2) so you stand in this position, waterboarded until you choked for hours and hours? Otherwise, it's acting. Pretending you do something when you don't.
3) when we torture people, after a time, this person is broken. And will admit anything, not matter if it's true or not, just so that the pain stop.
That's why torture dosen't work. Less torture, more interrogation. Having agents that collect informations and effective, sufficient translators would be more human and more effective.
That's why torture dosen't work. Less torture, more interrogation. Having agents that collect informations and effective, sufficient translators would be more human and more effective.
btw, a little netiquette lesson. When you write in capital, it's aggressing and annoying. It's the equivalent to yell. I do hope you are not yelling every time you open your mouth right? It should be the same when you write.
@carlairving hourS on end? obviously u have never really researched this, & this is not a witch hunt ....why dont u answwer my first question u fuckin troll, WHAT DO U SUGGEST WE DO WHILE INTERIGATING TERRORISTS? ASK NICLY? FREE OTHER PRISONERS THEY YWANT FREED?, WHAT DO U RTHINK WE SHOULSD DO ?THESE ARE BAD MEN & TRY RESEARCHING HOW A WATERBOARDING SESSION ACTUALLY WORKS B4 U START COMMENTING ON THINGS U KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT! dONT REPLY WITH ANYTHING OTHER THEN WHAT U WOULD DO OR UR BLOCKED
@carlairving The lives saved this kind of info gained thru this type of interigation saved 1,000's of lives from coalition, Iraqi, Afgahastan, syrians, pakastanis so take your liberal bullshit else where, try moving into the grey zone the worls isnt black
@Eivindtehax AHAHAH YES YES YES I WON I WON ! THE CHAMP IS HERE! ALL U HAD TO DO WAS ANSWER ONE QUESTION IN OUR DEBATE & YOU COULDNT ,SO U START TALKING ABOUT A DISEASE THAT IS EXTREME;Y HORRID & NOT FUNNY AT ALL. WELL IT WAS NICE BEATING YOU IN THIS DEBATE, BUT IT REALLY WASNT THAt hard due to the fact your IQ prolly lower then 50. but anyway you are now blocked from my page now so dont bother psting back.OH YEAH & BY THE WAY I WON!
@arkangel8419 First of all downs isn't all that horrid, and its a syndrome. Secondly, I was never involved in your debate, but obviously your only redeeming factor was that if you had downs syndrome, you could be excused for believing the filth you are spewing out. Too bad, now you're just a bad person, and if you're religious, you are most likely going to hell. Have a nice day :)
"as soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then theit good becomes indistinguishable from the evil which they set out to destroy" John Locke. Torture has been proven not to work, as those tortured give the information they believe their captors want to hear, whether it is true or not, being 'understanding' has a far better track record in interrogation.
Not only does torture destroy the social fabric of the society condoning it, it doesn't work.
@Digdigs2 I agree...torture is outlawed for a good reason. I just dnt feel waterboarding crosses that line.It is not sticking bamboo shoots under their finger nails or cutting off fingers. It is not even holding them under water. All it does is simulate the feeling of drowning, No one actually drowns. While i do not think this is sumthing that should be done to every captive, but it has been proven to work on a case by case basis. Do u think this would work against a navy SEAL? it wont
@arkangel8419 Waterboarding is a form of torture. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage and, if uninterrupted, death. Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years.
And no, SEALs aren't immune, not that that has any relevance at all.
@Digdigs2 "understanding" does not work when u are dealing with religous extremists. That has been proven time & time again.Inhanced interigation methods were adopted because of this fact not in spite of it.While i agree this would be a dispicable act if we were pulling innocent women & children off the street & doing this. But waterboarding known terrorists who refuse to talk in my mind is justified. The thing that concerns me is how open washington was about waterboarding,Makes me wonder
@arkangel8419 So the Locke quote just passed you by huh? Interesting that you think it is fine to waterboard 'terrorists' prior to trial (ie, not proven that they are) but seem so concerned about pulling people 'off the street' - where do you think they pull suspected terrorists from? Mars?
Interesting also that you are wondering why washington was so open about waterboarding... scary huh? re-read the Locke quote, the answer is right there.
@Digdigs2 oh i see now. Your just a little troller. trolling for a fight.All the symptoms of waterboarding you listed are bullshit! lets run them down.1.struggling against restraints?so i guess we shouldnt handcuff anyone anymore huh?cuz ITS TORTURE BECAUSE THEY CAN HURT THEMSELVES.2.psychological effects??funny how they can strap bombs to women & kids But that has no effect on them huh?3.ABSOLUTLY NO PHYSICAL EFFECTS HAVE EVER BEEN PROVEN!EVER DO YOUR HOMEWORK B4 U OPEN UR MOUTH!
@Digdigs2 the fact that seals & american specops go thru waterboarding & much worse is absolutly relivent. So while we are doing this to american soldiers it isnt torture but when we do it to sum piece of shit scumbag all of a sudden its torture?& i dont know how u think the legal system works but WE QUESTION AND INTEROGATE PEOPLE B4 WE TAKE THEM TO TRIAL YOU FUCKING DUMBASS!& taking people off the street?Meening we r not taking innocent men & women of the streets and waterboarding them!
@Digdigs2 & FUCK YOUR STUPID QUOTE YOU FAG. COME UP WITH YOUR OWN IDEAS.So now that i just destroyed your whole arguement i will be blocking you now becasue it is painfully obviouse you have done no research on the topic & only wish to troll the internet looking for a fight! The sad thing is it was wayyy toooooo easy for me to beat you. So go back do sum real research & shove your quotation book up your fucking ass!
@Digdigs2 OH NO EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE YOUR A 34 YEAR OLD DUMBASS FROM AUSTRAILIA ...LOL & THAT IS WHY YOUR COUNTRY WILL NEVER EVER EVER BE A WORLD POWER!!! JUST STICK TO YOUR 3 CITY COUNTRY & GREAT WHITE SHARKS & SURFING. LEAVE WAR & PROTECTING THE FREE WORLD TO A REAL COUNTRY!
What they are not being so open about in the terms of inhanced interogation methods. Every navyseal along with other specops groups that operate in the water all go thru training that is much much worse then water boarding. I have seen men black out in pools & the ocean, waterboarding is never taken that far.So we r in agreement torture is not sumthing the U.S. should be using, we are just not seeing eye to eye on what crosses the line into torture.I dnt feel specops training is torture
@Digdigs2 so if we do things to "known terrorists(not your everyday innocent)" that we do to our own soldiers i just dont feel that crosses the line to torture
(cont) In the war crimes tribunals that followed Japan's defeat in World War II, the issue of waterboarding was sometimes raised. For example, in 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.
On the issue of whether waterboarding is a crime. In 1983, Texas Sheriff James Parker was charged, along with three of his deputies, for handcuffing prisoners to chairs, placing towels over their faces, and pouring water on the cloth until they gave what the officers considered to be confessions. The sheriff and his deputies were all convicted and sentenced to four years in prison. (cont)
(cont) On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photo of a U.S. soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier. The caption said the technique induced "a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk." The picture led to an Army investigation and, two months later, the court martial of the soldier.
(cont) In the war crimes tribunals that followed Japan's defeat in World War II, the issue of waterboarding was sometimes raised. For example, in 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.
@hint0122 - You really do need to work on your reading comprehension skills. You clearly don't understand what I've been saying. - While you're at it, you might want to study some of the relevant laws too. Again, you don't know what you're talking about.
The German state today systematically uses torture and assassination to shut down everyone complaining immediately. Examples are Heiner Gehring (author) or Uwe Barschel. My brother Markus Bott had been tortured during five and a half years and then was assassinated. Because of our book and homepage linked on my channel. Anybody who dares to tackle the German human rights abuses? Or is it just like: Don´t care, its Germany, they even got away with killing 6 m Jews.
To accept torturing people as a viable way to behave, is not only immoral and counter productive, but it also invalidates the premise upon which the United States was formed.
They didn't have cars either. Does that mean that cars invalidate the premise on which this country was formed?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable...". As the 8th Amendment declares, among those rights is the right to be free from "cruel and unusual punishments".
What you continue to so carelessly advocate would eventually break down the very fabric of our society. Think it through.
The Amnesty International organisation learned of torture in the USA, set out a clear opposition against it, then determinedly sat in a room twiddling their thumbs until George Bush graciously retired his presidency.
The crime does not matter - a suspect should always be treated like a human being while waiting for a fair trial, which btw is something anyone who is accused of a crime have the right to.
The guy who helped plan 911 was waterboarded. He told of additional plans to do the same to a skyscraper in LA. He even ID'd the skyscraper. Why has no one bothered to ask the people in that building what they thought of waterboarding? If someone you loved was in immediate danger, i bet dollars to doughnuts you wouldn't give a second thought to torture! we're all in danger from these extremist camel jockeys. Torture away!
You are bringing up what has been called in the past the "ticking bomb" scenario. If tourture could be shown to directly save lives a utilitarian arguement could be made for torture. However in reality false or even misleading information is as likely as true and useful. In a wider context as well if one side is known to torture the other side is likely to feel more justified in taking extream action. Could you name the the person who gave information about the LA attack under torture?
Khalid Sheik Mohammad is the man you are talking about. The CIA claim that they got information which prevented the attack on LA but analyse what information they seem to have got. After 2 years of custurdy and torture in Jordan and Cuba he named one possible target. He did not name all the possible targets. It has not lead to the arrest of the high ranking individuals in Al-Qaeda or harmed their organisation as much as the propaganda has benifited them by showing the CIA as brutes.
Your a lair and a republican. One in the same. I would sooner cut off my penis than beleive anything a republican has to say. Torture is wrong and if you argue with that then you sir have never been tortured. If anyone does deserve torture it is republicans for what you have done to my beloved countrys economy as well as its foreign relations, but I still wouldnt condone that. You and whoever spawned you are still human. Despicable greedy hypocrits, but still human.
You are a fool. I am a registered republican, though I do not vote that way. You made a sweeping generalization and look like an ass for doing so. I am against torture, against war and am also against what the current administration, and the previous are doing to our economy. Both are/were trying to give the government more power. I am greedy, yes. I want to accumulate as much wealth and power as I can, but I also volunteer money and time around my city.
did i say he didn't have a right? no i didn't. i was simple stating that from my p.o.v what he thinks is whats wrong. i didn't insult him or anything so y do u care what i said?
what is wrong about what he thinks? I care because you are the reason whats wrong. do you think if you got captured by a terrorist, they would give you rights? no, they would cut off yout head while you are still alive and be happy about it. it wouldnt make a difference if you supported them or not. maybe you should grow up.
i need to grow up yet ur the one who's saying if u do it to me i should be able to do wrong to u. how very grown up of u??? kids act like that, adults say even if ur planning on doing wrong to me i'm still going to do the right thing to u. and i don't support terrorist i support human right's cuz not every1 they catch is a terrorist
no i don't think that but the actions of crazy ppl don't dictate my actions. a crazy guy in the u.s. might try to rape me so should i beat the shit out of every guy i think might do it to try and find out if they would? no. torture is wrong and if we do it on any level how can we say we're better then they are? we can't
no but if u give up who u r in any way then they already won. i'm not saying if some1 is trying to kill ur family right in front of u sit back and do nothing so don't talk to me like an idiot
whose terms do you want to fight on, ours, which they use as a tool to stop us, or theirs, which has no rules. We neither fight or we might as well give up.
non....and non have been proven guilty either. non of them have gotten a trial. they hold ppl there for long time for no reason. they have a guy in there that they say is not connected at all and it's been over a yr and there still holding him. torture never works ppl just say what u want to hear so u'll stop
they are not entitied to a trial. they are not civilians since they kill members of the military They are not military since they dont belong to a standing army, dont carry arms openly and dont wear a uniform. In short, they dont have any rights under the Geneva Convention. Just wondering, what do you consider to be touture?
How can you say they aren't entitled to a trial? The United States isn't supposed to limit our basic human rights to citizens you idiot. If an American citizen was arrested over seas, and not given a trial based on that nations legal laws, I assure you we would all be pissed.
And torture is evil and not fit for a civilized society. How can you defend such heinous crimes against humanity. Have you been informed about our policy of a fair trial and condemnation of cruel and unusual punishment?
I can say it because under the Geneva convention, terrorists have no right to a trial. They are not members of the military since they dont carry arms openly or wear uniforms. They arent civilians because they kill military personal and civilians. How would you try them? Which court which you try them in? dont blame me, those are the rules. personal and civilians. How would you try them?
I, as an American, truly believe that every human being has the innate right to a fair trial, so yes I would give them a fair trial. But what's wrong with that? I don't live in a militia controlled nation, I live in a nation of rights and laws.
And this is all beside the point anyway, because the real argument is against torture. And yes IT IS TORTURE. Only an idiot couldn't see that.
1.Why do you think that a fair trial means that they'll be freed? The only reason you would have to be afraid of that would be if we weren't sure if they were guilty, and if we aren't sure that their guilty how can you justify holding them in a secret prison and torturing them?
2. My definition of a cruel and unusual punishment is one that causes great pain and suffering or is sick and twisted. And if torture isn't cruel then what the hell is?
3. You have absolutely no evidence to even suggest that a terrorist attack has been thwarted through the means of torture. Perhaps the explanation comes from our enhanced security measures and continuous investigations.
Torture is cruel. I don't care how it might hypothetically help, because the ends don't justify the means. We can't sacrifice our constitution, code of law, and our morality over something so useless (Sorry to write so much, I got a bit carried away).
Somehow there has not been a terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11. Where do you think information comes from in an investigations? Secuite measures cant catch everyone. It comes from souces and arm twisting. You and everyone else can believe in whatever you want, But, would you willing to put your life or someone elses life on the line for your beliefs? I welcome you to join the anti terrorist agencies and see what goes on and how close we have come to getting attacked.
because it has happened before. OJ got a fair trial and he got off. are you willing to take a chance? if one of them gets off, how about you let them live with you? in my view, listening to obama speak is cruel and unusual punishment.
Can you give me an example of where torture has helped stop a significant terrorist attack, because I have been unable to find one.
Would I be willing to put my own or someone else's life on the line to uphold the constitution, our values, and our rights? In a heartbeat.
You are attempting to compare the terrorist trials with a famous celebrity's? You think that a terrorist really has a shot at getting off on a technicality?
You are trying to say that it is ok for the government to hold a person for as long as they want without a trial? Really, because that goes against everything that I was taught that America stood against. Unlike you, I have faith in the American judicial system and I would bet good money that any guilty terrorist tried would be convicted.
Obama? Where did that come from? Geez man, you need to get over that election already, nobody here even mentioned him.
And If torture doesn't constitute cruelty, then what the hell does? By definition it is cruel, so don't pull this whole 'it's subjective' crap. You know it's cruel, I know it, we all know it so stop trying to squirm your way through more loop holes just to be able to torture another human being.
what I am saying is, according to the Geneva convention, it is not illegal. they are not cilivans since they kill military personal. They are not members of the armed forces since they dont carry arms openly, or wear uniforms. under that, they dont have any rights. If you have so much faith that they are guilty and will be convicted, why brother trying them? You said touture is anything that can be called cruel and unusual punishment. I find that listening to obama or speak is touture
=how about how KSM gave up information on planned attacks? look up KSM. if you really feel that way, work for the anti terrorist groups and see what they see. Everyone has a chance of getting off free and clear. All of them would have to do is say that they didnt get their Miranda rights read, and anything they said would be thrown out and they would be freed. It happens all the time.
By KSM, I assume you mean Khalid Sheikh Mohammad. I don't think that citing this as your best example of torture is a wise decision. From what I remember hearing, this case was better known for being handled poorly rather than for its benefits.
As I recall he asked for his right to an attorney, was denied it, then moved to a secret prison. There I believe he was illegally tortured over a hundred times.
Again there wasn't a known threat that they were looking for, they were merely fishing for hints. I don't believe in denying people their rights, regardless of what they have done. And I believe that the Geneva Convention does intend to cover all people by saying citizens or military. It is a loophole to say they are neither, in the end they are either one or the other. Either they are radical private citizens or they are a rag tag guerrilla militia.
And if any of them could get off by saying they weren't read their miranda rights, then they would all have gotten off. That's just not true, and i don't want it to be. Don't think that just because I don't want them tortured means I want them to go free.
All I want is to uphold the US's policies on war, rights, and decency. We shouldn't let terrorism compromise the values and society we've fought so long to uphold.
how is it not true? since they are in a civilian court, if their rights were not read to them when they were arrested, anything they said would be thrown out. you cant use values when you are dead. ask the 3000 dead on 9/11 what was their thought on values
Sometimes when you got fishing, you get something good. I am sorry, but the Geneva convention does not cover terrorists. You cant be one or the other. If you are a radical private citizens as you say and you kill military personal from the other side who are in uniform, you are tried under a military court. To be considered in the military, you have to wear a uniform, carry arms openly, and be able to be picked out by the opposing force.
In all your posts you have failed to address the simple fact that Cheney's torture policy CREATES terrorists.
"Mora: Abu Ghraib & Gitmo Get US Troops Killed" - ( watch?v=6wkNwjzpuH0 )
Are you claiming that you know more about the cause of terrorism than former Navy Inspector General Alberto Mora?
Or for that matter, top ex-FBI interrogator Ali Soufan (the man that interrogated Abu Zubaydah) "Senate Torture Hearings (Ali Soufan) 1/2" - ( watch?v=3jQoM0WvQpU )
I find that very ironic. Muslims killing muslims is never a problem. Cutting off someones head is not a problem. Why does torturing create more terrorists when what the terrorists do to their fellow muslims doesnt create an uproar? by the way, there were democrats in on it too, so dont blame it all on Cheney. Since obama hasnt closed gitmo, he is as much to blame as Cheney is. Why not go after him?
@hint0122 - wrt: "Why does torturing create more terrorists " - Apparently, the concept is not something you're capable of grasping. - good luck with that.
try explaining it to me. try explain why does torturing create more terrorists when what the terrorists do to their fellow Muslims doesnt create an uproar and no one seems to care. Explain how cutting someones head off why they are still alive is less of a crime then water boarded someone. if you cant explain that to me , you cant explain it to anyone.
@hint0122 - wrt: "Explain how cutting someones head off why they are still alive is less of a crime then water boarded someone..."
"...less of a crime..." Do you always define your morality in comparison with lowlifes?
The Untied States of America was founded upon the principle that "all men are created equal" and that we are all have certain unalienable rights. Among those is the right to be free from cruel and inhiman treatment. - ALL includes even murderers and terrorists.
"Listen to what a Captain in the 82nd Airborne Division wrote about the abuse of detainees that he had witnessed in Iraq and Afghanistan. In a letter to Senator McCain, he posed what he called the most important question that this generation will answer... (cont)
(cont) "...Do we sacrifice our ideals in order to preserve security? That Army Captain said in his extraordinarily eloquent words and in his own way that he would rather die fighting than give up even the smallest part of that idea that is America."
Apparently, you and I have different ideas about what it means to be an American.
we already have sacrificed our ideals. we search people at airports, phones are tapped. what it means to be American is when you follow the rules and no one else does, you are still the bad guy. My uncle served in Vietnam. He was a fire base that overlooked the border with Laos. He could see the people coming down the border, but they couldnt do anything since that would have been wrong. You can believe in whatever you want, try working with anti terrorism.
So to defend freedom you have to take away freedom. Your argument defies logic and could (no will) see the end of US domination if you don't change it.
Can't accept that the republicans who got in with one of the lowest turn outs have lost the white house with one of the largest turnouts. That's democracy.
Obama is an intellectual genious campared to his predecessor. Like many I am very disappointed he has not closed Guantánamo Bay and have told him so and will continue to until those inside are either charged and given a fair trial or released. That's how nations who believe in freedom and justice operate.
Torture never works. The FBI had more success with the reverse. ie offer incentives to double cross their colleagues, but continue to argue like this (ie the ends justify the means) and you just give the crazy terriorists more ammunition to recruit suicide bombers. You can't always win with just brute force you know.
do you really think that someone who is willing to blow themselves up to kill Americans would double cross their fellow terrorists? People in the mob are one thing, they are selfish and would sell out their mother, but terrorists, who dont care about living or dying, wouldnt. so smartass, how do you win? if you have a way that would get one of them to talk, even though they get off watching people die, work for the CIA. If you dont, shut the fuck up.
Like the word smartass don't you. You also know a lot about terrorists. I think it was Jesus Christ who told us to love thy enermy. Is the USA trying to win the war or just the battle? I am still trying to find how the CIA justifies torturing innocent people just like terrorists killing innocent people. You're argument is centred around "Oh Yeah They're worse than us". Two wrongs don't make a right.
Now that I think about it, dumbass is a more fitting title now that I read your comments. Yeah he said that, but did he also say what to do when they dont love you back? You can love terrorists and support their rights, but would they return the favor? If the roles were reversed, do you think they would show you the same custody? No, they would still kill you no matter what. I would rather be waterboraded then have my head cut off while I am still alive.
I got drunk one night and waterboarded my cheating wife. Her mom called the cops on me....
Andreas748 8 months ago
There's definitely a difference between waterboarding and torture. They are not the same
airsoftdude13 8 months ago
@airsoftdude13 And the difference would be exactly what? Waterboarding doesn't leave marks? Tell you what. You go get waterboarded, post a video of it, then come back and tell me it wasn't torture.
Team503 8 months ago
@Team503 I agree, besides any interrogation techique used to cause pain and suffering is torture, it doesn't matter if it leaves physical wounds or not.
cyberdaemon 8 months ago
@airsoftdude13 yes please explain to me what the difference is
michiganman678 6 months ago
Umm...yeah, they're doing the waterboarding wrong.
wes23579 8 months ago
where can i find that music
insigniaktk 10 months ago
Keep water boarding going lol we need worse stuff then that for terrorists
maskedmonkey10 11 months ago
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Ron Paul 2012
Destroyer220 1 year ago
The goal of interrogation is to get truthful information, so the only reason to use waterbording would be if it could get more truthful information then a more traditional form of interrogation.
So can anyone explain how waterbording would elicit more truthful information then a more standard form of interrogation?
washingtonwasstudly 1 year ago
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ever thought you were drowning?
hint0122 1 year ago
@washingtonwasstudly
It's not about getting 'more truthful information' - the 3 Al Qaeda terrorists who were waterboarded refused to speak at all.
It's about forcing silent subhuman mass murderers to talk, so we don't have to bury another 3,000 innocent human beings.
joba606 1 year ago
@joba606 Waterboarding is torture! And torture do not belong in a justice-society
HOLDTHAPHONE 1 year ago
@HOLDTHAPHONE Neither does terrorism.
joba606 1 year ago
@joba606 Correct, terrorism and torture is allways unacceptable. A state must never torture it's "enemies" or do terror-acts - never!
HOLDTHAPHONE 1 year ago
@washingtonwasstudly The way the human brain works is that, after too long, it breaks. Therefore you could sit down with a terrorist, twist his arm a bit, and ask him "Where are the bombs?" He could say "Their in London." Then you're satisfied, so you look in London. The, next day, Paris explodes into tiny bits (not that I'd care) and you're SOL. However, with waterboarding you can take torture past that and get the 'real' truth. And if done correctly, waterboarding won't kill you.
wes23579 8 months ago
@wes23579 Except it's been proven over and over that accurate information is rarely gotten from "enhanced interrogation techniques".
pureevilfnord 6 months ago
@pureevilfnord How so?
wes23579 6 months ago
@wes23579
• Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1 says:
“Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.”
pureevilfnord 6 months ago
@wes23579 • The C.I.A.’s 1963 interrogation manual stated: Intense pain is quite likely to produce false confessions, concocted as a means of escaping from distress. A time-consuming delay results, while investigation is conducted and the admissions are proven untrue. During this respite the interrogatee can pull himself together. He may even use the time to think up new, more complex ‘admissions’ that take still longer to disprove.
pureevilfnord 6 months ago
Google the words - experts enhanced interrogation doesn't work - you will find testimony of hundreds of CIA, Army and FBI interrogators all saying pretty much the exact same thing. The only people you can find who say waterboarding works are all people who are in danger of being prosecuted for doing it.
pureevilfnord 6 months ago
@wes23579 The scenario you describe only happens in the movies or TV.
pureevilfnord 6 months ago
@pureevilfnord Dunno, just repeating a conversation that I had with a co-worker that was in the military. I guess he looked into it because he found it interesting. True, the whole London/Paris thing was was a cheesy example, but that's why its called an example. He still said that the mind has a break point and the problem is getting past that without killing someone. That's why water boarding is the "big thing" nowadays. And it may not work every time but it works MORE often than other ways.
wes23579 6 months ago
@wes23579 Evidence does not back up what your friend said, even if he was "military". It has been proven time and again that it is one of the worst ways to gather evidence. The jury is not out on this. You make statements as if they are absolutely true and they are demonstrably not.
pureevilfnord 6 months ago
@pureevilfnord Yeah, so I'm just going off of common sense here and say that I think you're full of shit. I know you're playing "expert" here and everything, but I'm pretty sure that if I got waterboarded, I would tell anyone anything. I'm also pretty sure you would too. That's evidence enough for me. There for I DO say it as if its true.
wes23579 6 months ago
@wes23579 Is it common sense to ignore the facts? I'm not playing the expert, I WENT AND LOOKED IT UP. I found the experts to hear out what they say instead of going off the words of a guy at work and using "common sense". I quoted a US ARMY and CIA FIELD MANUAL fer Chrissakes. You quoted a coworker. Come on, people, for the first time in ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY, we have the internet where we can find just about ANY piece of information in SECONDS and we don't even bother.
pureevilfnord 6 months ago
@pureevilfnord Yeah. You're right. You CAN find anything on the internet. I googled "Waterboarding doesn't work" and found basically everything that you're saying. I also looked up "waterboarding DOES work." Ever heard the names Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or Abu Faraj al-Libi? We waterboarded the hell out of them before it was banned, and told us where to find the house where we caught BIn Laden. I rest my case.
wes23579 6 months ago
@wes23579 AND if YOU had read further, you would have discovered that the information we got from those two guys was gotten through TALKING. They WERE waterboarded, but that isn't what worked. Again, if you pay attention - the ONLY people who say waterboarding works are the people who are in danger of being prosecuted for doing it. Remember, the United States has EXECUTED people in the past for waterboarding.
pureevilfnord 6 months ago
@pureevilfnord No, but i did find a crap-ton of left-wingers that wanted to cover their asses. A lot of them just didn't want to look stupid after saying it doesn't work. Anyways, what about Abu Zubaida? I would LOVE to hear your explanation on him. He told us everything (accurately) within the first 35 seconds....and then we waterboarded him another 83 times after that. (Oops)
wes23579 6 months ago
@wes23579
"Abu Zubaydah was transferred to Guantanamo in September 2006 where he and other former CIA detainees are held in Camp 7 where conditions are the most isolating. He has never been charged, despite being accused for years by US authorities. The United States government now admits Abu Zubaydah was never a member of al Qaeda, nor involved in the 1998 African embassy bombings or the attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001." - Wikipedia - 20 seconds to look up.
pureevilfnord 6 months ago
@pureevilfnord Is it common sense to ignore the facts? Lol. Using Wikipedia as a source? Shame on you.
And 9/11? Who mentioned that? The reason we took him in in the first place was for info on other leaders. you make him sound as if he didn't do anything. Unless he was hiding under that burka to stay out of the sun. he was guilty as hell.
wes23579 6 months ago
@wes23579 I see you're playing the right vs. left game. Good luck with that.
pureevilfnord 6 months ago
@pureevilfnord Sadly the "right vs left game" does exist (ESPECIALLY in the media). Its like reading the Washington Post vs watching Fox news. They'll present totally opposite views on the same subjects, whether that means leaving things out or stretching the truth, it doesn't matter as long as they stay "credible." If you haven't realized that yet, you might have some problems.
wes23579 6 months ago
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson
washingtonwasstudly 1 year ago
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Hey, I'm supposed to make a short add AND movie,30-60seconds / 5-10mins long, on Gender Based Violence.
I am going to focus on child sexual abuse in street children,especially keeping in view the young girls from poor areas.
I don't want to make a documentary type movie and was wondering if ne1 cld give me some things that come to their mind regarding this topic.(low budget & 3-4people to cast) What kind of concept do you think I should go with?
Any reply would be appreciated :).
Thanks!
GenderBasedViolence 1 year ago
How about jumping alive from the 105th floor of The World Trade Centre? Or a 1 ton chunk of roof falling on the head, Amnesty?
Sub40H 1 year ago
thats not how you waterboard someone, stupid AI.
you place a wet towel over their mouth, and dump water on them. simulates drowning. having their mouth open, chugging on water CAN ACTUALLY DROWN THEM.
ImNeilPatrickHarris 1 year ago
There is real evil in this world. If they are trying to kill us, then we should get their information from them before they kill more of us.
bcw2009 1 year ago
what we doing here ? what doing terrorists ? all in the name of god ? all this for money and migth ? i think only for money and migth !
yxc4bum 1 year ago
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violence is a fact of life. deal with it.
kevmanev 1 year ago
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Skinmeister2 1 year ago
#1. the cia is only 1 of hundreds of agencies that use waterboarding 2. george bush had nothing to do with the OK to use waterboarding 3. waterboarding done right does not fall under any of the laws of torture 3. waterboarding leaves no marks on the person and has no phsycal effects after it is over 4.considering the technics used by other countrys waterboarding isnt really that bad5. WATERBOARDING IS NOT TORTURE, torture is pulling out finger nails burning the bottoms of feet cutting of heads
arkangel8419 1 year ago
@arkangel8419 1. so what just because others do it doesn't make it of. 2. His Vice president seemed to know about it. 3. UN defines it as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession" I think done right it does cause severe suffering. 4. again; so what? there are worse tortures out there probably but that doesn't make it ok. 5. is a repeat.
cnmmedic218 1 year ago
@arkangel8419 Then, if it's not torture, and if it's not that bad, you don't mind trying it don't you? *It's a rhetorical question of course, I wouldn't wish this to anyone, even my worst ennemies...)
carlairving 1 year ago
@carlairving Yeah good comeback after i pretty much shot down your whole arguement. OH YEAH & BY THE WAY BEFOR YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH TRY TAKING A LOOK AT MY VIDEOS, YOU MIGHT LIKE THE ONE CALLED "WATERBOARDING TORTURE OR NOT!" DUMBASS
arkangel8419 1 year ago
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carlairving 1 year ago
@arkangel8419 comeback?!? Comeback from??
Anyway, 1) your video completely lacks content, and the acting is pityfull
2) The UN stated waterboarding as torture... But then again, what does the UN experts knows about it compared to 2 duded who tried it for a minute in their bathroom right?
carlairving 1 year ago
@carlairving tHAT WASNT ANY ACTING MORON!2 tHE UN HAS NOT YET DECIDED ON WEITHER OR NOT IT IS TORTURE AS OF RIGHT NOW IT IS CALLED "INHANCED INTERIGATION" YOUR A DUMB TROLLER THAT CANT EVEN BE MAN ENOUG TO ADMITE THAT MAYBE HIS VIEWS MIGHT BE A LITTLE WRONG. i HAVE ANSWERED ALL YOUR QUESTIONS U HAVE NOT ANSWERD 1 OF MINE. HOW BOUT THIS ONE. wHAT SHOULD WE DO WHEN TRYING TO GET INFO? ASK THEM NICE? JUST ANSWER ME THAT & HOW DOES IT LACK CONTENT? THATS WHAT WATER BOARDING IS.?
arkangel8419 1 year ago
@arkangel8419 1) no you never answered any of my questions. Starting by what do you meant by comeback...
2) so you stand in this position, waterboarded until you choked for hours and hours? Otherwise, it's acting. Pretending you do something when you don't.
3) when we torture people, after a time, this person is broken. And will admit anything, not matter if it's true or not, just so that the pain stop.
carlairving 1 year ago
@carlairving *stops
That's why torture dosen't work. Less torture, more interrogation. Having agents that collect informations and effective, sufficient translators would be more human and more effective.
carlairving 1 year ago
@carlairving *stops
That's why torture dosen't work. Less torture, more interrogation. Having agents that collect informations and effective, sufficient translators would be more human and more effective.
btw, a little netiquette lesson. When you write in capital, it's aggressing and annoying. It's the equivalent to yell. I do hope you are not yelling every time you open your mouth right? It should be the same when you write.
carlairving 1 year ago
@carlairving hourS on end? obviously u have never really researched this, & this is not a witch hunt ....why dont u answwer my first question u fuckin troll, WHAT DO U SUGGEST WE DO WHILE INTERIGATING TERRORISTS? ASK NICLY? FREE OTHER PRISONERS THEY YWANT FREED?, WHAT DO U RTHINK WE SHOULSD DO ?THESE ARE BAD MEN & TRY RESEARCHING HOW A WATERBOARDING SESSION ACTUALLY WORKS B4 U START COMMENTING ON THINGS U KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT! dONT REPLY WITH ANYTHING OTHER THEN WHAT U WOULD DO OR UR BLOCKED
arkangel8419 1 year ago
@carlairving The lives saved this kind of info gained thru this type of interigation saved 1,000's of lives from coalition, Iraqi, Afgahastan, syrians, pakastanis so take your liberal bullshit else where, try moving into the grey zone the worls isnt black
7 white.
arkangel8419 1 year ago
@arkangel8419 its not easy living with downs syndrome, is it?
Eivindtehax 1 year ago
@Eivindtehax AHAHAH YES YES YES I WON I WON ! THE CHAMP IS HERE! ALL U HAD TO DO WAS ANSWER ONE QUESTION IN OUR DEBATE & YOU COULDNT ,SO U START TALKING ABOUT A DISEASE THAT IS EXTREME;Y HORRID & NOT FUNNY AT ALL. WELL IT WAS NICE BEATING YOU IN THIS DEBATE, BUT IT REALLY WASNT THAt hard due to the fact your IQ prolly lower then 50. but anyway you are now blocked from my page now so dont bother psting back.OH YEAH & BY THE WAY I WON!
arkangel8419 1 year ago
@arkangel8419 First of all downs isn't all that horrid, and its a syndrome. Secondly, I was never involved in your debate, but obviously your only redeeming factor was that if you had downs syndrome, you could be excused for believing the filth you are spewing out. Too bad, now you're just a bad person, and if you're religious, you are most likely going to hell. Have a nice day :)
Eivindtehax 1 year ago
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Skinmeister2 1 year ago
@Skinmeister2 so why try to start a fight if its retarded?
arkangel8419 1 year ago
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Skinmeister2 1 year ago
@arkangel8419
"as soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then theit good becomes indistinguishable from the evil which they set out to destroy" John Locke. Torture has been proven not to work, as those tortured give the information they believe their captors want to hear, whether it is true or not, being 'understanding' has a far better track record in interrogation.
Not only does torture destroy the social fabric of the society condoning it, it doesn't work.
Digdigs2 1 year ago
@Digdigs2 I agree...torture is outlawed for a good reason. I just dnt feel waterboarding crosses that line.It is not sticking bamboo shoots under their finger nails or cutting off fingers. It is not even holding them under water. All it does is simulate the feeling of drowning, No one actually drowns. While i do not think this is sumthing that should be done to every captive, but it has been proven to work on a case by case basis. Do u think this would work against a navy SEAL? it wont
arkangel8419 1 year ago
@arkangel8419 Waterboarding is a form of torture. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage and, if uninterrupted, death. Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years.
And no, SEALs aren't immune, not that that has any relevance at all.
Digdigs2 1 year ago
@Digdigs2 "understanding" does not work when u are dealing with religous extremists. That has been proven time & time again.Inhanced interigation methods were adopted because of this fact not in spite of it.While i agree this would be a dispicable act if we were pulling innocent women & children off the street & doing this. But waterboarding known terrorists who refuse to talk in my mind is justified. The thing that concerns me is how open washington was about waterboarding,Makes me wonder
arkangel8419 1 year ago
@arkangel8419 So the Locke quote just passed you by huh? Interesting that you think it is fine to waterboard 'terrorists' prior to trial (ie, not proven that they are) but seem so concerned about pulling people 'off the street' - where do you think they pull suspected terrorists from? Mars?
Interesting also that you are wondering why washington was so open about waterboarding... scary huh? re-read the Locke quote, the answer is right there.
Digdigs2 1 year ago
@Digdigs2 oh i see now. Your just a little troller. trolling for a fight.All the symptoms of waterboarding you listed are bullshit! lets run them down.1.struggling against restraints?so i guess we shouldnt handcuff anyone anymore huh?cuz ITS TORTURE BECAUSE THEY CAN HURT THEMSELVES.2.psychological effects??funny how they can strap bombs to women & kids But that has no effect on them huh?3.ABSOLUTLY NO PHYSICAL EFFECTS HAVE EVER BEEN PROVEN!EVER DO YOUR HOMEWORK B4 U OPEN UR MOUTH!
arkangel8419 1 year ago
@Digdigs2 the fact that seals & american specops go thru waterboarding & much worse is absolutly relivent. So while we are doing this to american soldiers it isnt torture but when we do it to sum piece of shit scumbag all of a sudden its torture?& i dont know how u think the legal system works but WE QUESTION AND INTEROGATE PEOPLE B4 WE TAKE THEM TO TRIAL YOU FUCKING DUMBASS!& taking people off the street?Meening we r not taking innocent men & women of the streets and waterboarding them!
arkangel8419 1 year ago
@Digdigs2 & FUCK YOUR STUPID QUOTE YOU FAG. COME UP WITH YOUR OWN IDEAS.So now that i just destroyed your whole arguement i will be blocking you now becasue it is painfully obviouse you have done no research on the topic & only wish to troll the internet looking for a fight! The sad thing is it was wayyy toooooo easy for me to beat you. So go back do sum real research & shove your quotation book up your fucking ass!
arkangel8419 1 year ago
@Digdigs2 OH NO EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE YOUR A 34 YEAR OLD DUMBASS FROM AUSTRAILIA ...LOL & THAT IS WHY YOUR COUNTRY WILL NEVER EVER EVER BE A WORLD POWER!!! JUST STICK TO YOUR 3 CITY COUNTRY & GREAT WHITE SHARKS & SURFING. LEAVE WAR & PROTECTING THE FREE WORLD TO A REAL COUNTRY!
arkangel8419 1 year ago
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@arkangel8419 I think you just proved my point for me, thanks.
Digdigs2 1 year ago
@arkangel8419 huh?
ppzav 1 year ago
What they are not being so open about in the terms of inhanced interogation methods. Every navyseal along with other specops groups that operate in the water all go thru training that is much much worse then water boarding. I have seen men black out in pools & the ocean, waterboarding is never taken that far.So we r in agreement torture is not sumthing the U.S. should be using, we are just not seeing eye to eye on what crosses the line into torture.I dnt feel specops training is torture
arkangel8419 1 year ago
@Digdigs2 so if we do things to "known terrorists(not your everyday innocent)" that we do to our own soldiers i just dont feel that crosses the line to torture
arkangel8419 1 year ago
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(cont) In the war crimes tribunals that followed Japan's defeat in World War II, the issue of waterboarding was sometimes raised. For example, in 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.
im4wur2 1 year ago 4
On the issue of whether waterboarding is a crime. In 1983, Texas Sheriff James Parker was charged, along with three of his deputies, for handcuffing prisoners to chairs, placing towels over their faces, and pouring water on the cloth until they gave what the officers considered to be confessions. The sheriff and his deputies were all convicted and sentenced to four years in prison. (cont)
im4wur2 1 year ago 4
(cont) On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photo of a U.S. soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier. The caption said the technique induced "a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk." The picture led to an Army investigation and, two months later, the court martial of the soldier.
im4wur2 1 year ago 4
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(cont) In the war crimes tribunals that followed Japan's defeat in World War II, the issue of waterboarding was sometimes raised. For example, in 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.
im4wur2 1 year ago 3
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im4wur2 1 year ago
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im4wur2 1 year ago
@hint0122 - You really do need to work on your reading comprehension skills. You clearly don't understand what I've been saying. - While you're at it, you might want to study some of the relevant laws too. Again, you don't know what you're talking about.
im4wur2 1 year ago 5
I do understand. my question is, do you think waterbroading is torture in all cases?
hint0122 1 year ago
then it is a crime when done on soldiers for reasons of training. consent wouldnt mean that it is legal.
hint0122 1 year ago
The German state today systematically uses torture and assassination to shut down everyone complaining immediately. Examples are Heiner Gehring (author) or Uwe Barschel. My brother Markus Bott had been tortured during five and a half years and then was assassinated. Because of our book and homepage linked on my channel. Anybody who dares to tackle the German human rights abuses? Or is it just like: Don´t care, its Germany, they even got away with killing 6 m Jews.
wwwtotalitaerde 1 year ago
how the hell did germany get away with it?
hint0122 1 year ago
very cool ost!
killtheswitch 1 year ago 3
Torture is the worst way to get info from someone. Not only does it violate their rights as a human but they can say random shit to get it to stop
baseballluva912 1 year ago 6
if torturing someone violates rights, what does cutting someones head off while they are still alive mean?
hint0122 1 year ago
watch?v=MmBa8I3kqC0
im4wur2 1 year ago
not fround
hint0122 1 year ago
To accept torturing people as a viable way to behave, is not only immoral and counter productive, but it also invalidates the premise upon which the United States was formed.
watch?v=TnE49uD_5_s
im4wur2 1 year ago 4
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hint0122 1 year ago
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the US was founded by people who didnt have suicide bombers or terrorists.
hint0122 1 year ago
They didn't have cars either. Does that mean that cars invalidate the premise on which this country was formed?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable...". As the 8th Amendment declares, among those rights is the right to be free from "cruel and unusual punishments".
What you continue to so carelessly advocate would eventually break down the very fabric of our society. Think it through.
im4wur2 1 year ago
what will break down our society is when we wont act and get destroyed.
hint0122 1 year ago
Marking down excerpts from the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights... gotta love it! - lol
im4wur2 1 year ago
The Amnesty International organisation learned of torture in the USA, set out a clear opposition against it, then determinedly sat in a room twiddling their thumbs until George Bush graciously retired his presidency.
Congratulations.
Draculix 1 year ago
@Draculix - Thanks for your help.
im4wur2 1 year ago 2
Torture is stupid but it does clear up crime. Just imagine every crime is solved. The right person wont be caught but then again thats not the point.
samosashot 2 years ago
poor logic. there are country's where u can get ur hand cut off for stealing yet ppl still steal there. torture is never the answer
lucky5th2 2 years ago 4
that wouldnt be torture, that would be punishment
hint0122 2 years ago
good video
cathymacdonald222 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I personally think that listening to obama and Barney Frank is torture
hint0122 2 years ago
Torture is like playing "uncle".
(The girl grabbed her brother's arm, twisted it, contorting it beyond normal human capacity. "Say uncle!" she told him.
"Uncle! Uncle! Please stop it, that hurts!" the boy shrieked.
"Now say you are the supidest person in the world!"
"Never!"
"Say it or you lose a limb."
"I'm an idiot! I'm stupid! No one is dumber than me!"
"Very good," the girl said, releasing him. "Now go to your room or I'll do it again!")
earwasel2 2 years ago
The crime does not matter - a suspect should always be treated like a human being while waiting for a fair trial, which btw is something anyone who is accused of a crime have the right to.
No matter what crime we're talking about.
kablamo9999 2 years ago
The Marines came up with another great saying to combat pussy morons that want to treat terrorists like pickpockets or small time crooks --
"Waterboarding is bad, so shoot to kill"
Nicely put Marine Corps, Semper Fi
ColeMcGrath 2 years ago 2
the worst thing is that not only water they use to torture the poor people...
abrahamWCE 2 years ago
The guy who helped plan 911 was waterboarded. He told of additional plans to do the same to a skyscraper in LA. He even ID'd the skyscraper. Why has no one bothered to ask the people in that building what they thought of waterboarding? If someone you loved was in immediate danger, i bet dollars to doughnuts you wouldn't give a second thought to torture! we're all in danger from these extremist camel jockeys. Torture away!
anarqist 2 years ago
You are bringing up what has been called in the past the "ticking bomb" scenario. If tourture could be shown to directly save lives a utilitarian arguement could be made for torture. However in reality false or even misleading information is as likely as true and useful. In a wider context as well if one side is known to torture the other side is likely to feel more justified in taking extream action. Could you name the the person who gave information about the LA attack under torture?
cnmmedic218 2 years ago 2
Khalid Sheik Mohammad is the man you are talking about. The CIA claim that they got information which prevented the attack on LA but analyse what information they seem to have got. After 2 years of custurdy and torture in Jordan and Cuba he named one possible target. He did not name all the possible targets. It has not lead to the arrest of the high ranking individuals in Al-Qaeda or harmed their organisation as much as the propaganda has benifited them by showing the CIA as brutes.
cnmmedic218 2 years ago
I totally agree. Well said, especially regarding the fact that it is so unreliable.
Torture isn't about getting the truth.. It's about coercing someone long and hard enough to get what you want to hear.
suburbanvultures 2 years ago 2
Your a lair and a republican. One in the same. I would sooner cut off my penis than beleive anything a republican has to say. Torture is wrong and if you argue with that then you sir have never been tortured. If anyone does deserve torture it is republicans for what you have done to my beloved countrys economy as well as its foreign relations, but I still wouldnt condone that. You and whoever spawned you are still human. Despicable greedy hypocrits, but still human.
blackelk7373 2 years ago
You are a fool. I am a registered republican, though I do not vote that way. You made a sweeping generalization and look like an ass for doing so. I am against torture, against war and am also against what the current administration, and the previous are doing to our economy. Both are/were trying to give the government more power. I am greedy, yes. I want to accumulate as much wealth and power as I can, but I also volunteer money and time around my city.
MrHambergator 2 years ago
u sir r what's wrong with the world
lucky5th2 2 years ago
he has the right to his view, just as much as you have the right to yours.
hint0122 2 years ago
did i say he didn't have a right? no i didn't. i was simple stating that from my p.o.v what he thinks is whats wrong. i didn't insult him or anything so y do u care what i said?
lucky5th2 2 years ago
what is wrong about what he thinks? I care because you are the reason whats wrong. do you think if you got captured by a terrorist, they would give you rights? no, they would cut off yout head while you are still alive and be happy about it. it wouldnt make a difference if you supported them or not. maybe you should grow up.
hint0122 2 years ago
i need to grow up yet ur the one who's saying if u do it to me i should be able to do wrong to u. how very grown up of u??? kids act like that, adults say even if ur planning on doing wrong to me i'm still going to do the right thing to u. and i don't support terrorist i support human right's cuz not every1 they catch is a terrorist
lucky5th2 2 years ago
good for you, but do you think terrorists care if you support human rights? they get off watching you die slowly.
hint0122 2 years ago
no i don't think that but the actions of crazy ppl don't dictate my actions. a crazy guy in the u.s. might try to rape me so should i beat the shit out of every guy i think might do it to try and find out if they would? no. torture is wrong and if we do it on any level how can we say we're better then they are? we can't
lucky5th2 2 years ago
we dont have to say anything. keep in mind that keeping the moral high ground doesnt save your ass or someone you love from getting killed.
hint0122 2 years ago
no but if u give up who u r in any way then they already won. i'm not saying if some1 is trying to kill ur family right in front of u sit back and do nothing so don't talk to me like an idiot
lucky5th2 2 years ago
Comment removed
hint0122 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
no matter how you fight you are going to give up who you are in order to survive. so what are you saying? how would you make someone talk?
hint0122 2 years ago
whose terms do you want to fight on, ours, which they use as a tool to stop us, or theirs, which has no rules. We neither fight or we might as well give up.
hint0122 2 years ago
ur missing the point. the point is ppl who haven't done anything wrong r getting tortured by the u.s. and that is really wrong.
lucky5th2 2 years ago
how many people who were waterboarding were proved to be innocent?
hint0122 2 years ago
non....and non have been proven guilty either. non of them have gotten a trial. they hold ppl there for long time for no reason. they have a guy in there that they say is not connected at all and it's been over a yr and there still holding him. torture never works ppl just say what u want to hear so u'll stop
lucky5th2 2 years ago
they are not entitied to a trial. they are not civilians since they kill members of the military They are not military since they dont belong to a standing army, dont carry arms openly and dont wear a uniform. In short, they dont have any rights under the Geneva Convention. Just wondering, what do you consider to be touture?
hint0122 2 years ago
they do have right as human being's tho. and i never said it was torture and not punishment did i
lucky5th2 2 years ago
How can you say they aren't entitled to a trial? The United States isn't supposed to limit our basic human rights to citizens you idiot. If an American citizen was arrested over seas, and not given a trial based on that nations legal laws, I assure you we would all be pissed.
And torture is evil and not fit for a civilized society. How can you defend such heinous crimes against humanity. Have you been informed about our policy of a fair trial and condemnation of cruel and unusual punishment?
sam4084 2 years ago
I can say it because under the Geneva convention, terrorists have no right to a trial. They are not members of the military since they dont carry arms openly or wear uniforms. They arent civilians because they kill military personal and civilians. How would you try them? Which court which you try them in? dont blame me, those are the rules. personal and civilians. How would you try them?
hint0122 2 years ago
I, as an American, truly believe that every human being has the innate right to a fair trial, so yes I would give them a fair trial. But what's wrong with that? I don't live in a militia controlled nation, I live in a nation of rights and laws.
And this is all beside the point anyway, because the real argument is against torture. And yes IT IS TORTURE. Only an idiot couldn't see that.
sam4084 2 years ago 2
if they get a fair trail, get freed, and kill people?
hint0122 1 year ago
good for you but you are going to die with your rights and laws. the people in the towers had rights, what about them?
hint0122 1 year ago
what is your defintion of cruel and unusual punishment?
hint0122 1 year ago
it must have worked since for some reason, we havent had a major terrorist attack. where do you think information comes from?
hint0122 1 year ago
1.Why do you think that a fair trial means that they'll be freed? The only reason you would have to be afraid of that would be if we weren't sure if they were guilty, and if we aren't sure that their guilty how can you justify holding them in a secret prison and torturing them?
2. My definition of a cruel and unusual punishment is one that causes great pain and suffering or is sick and twisted. And if torture isn't cruel then what the hell is?
sam4084 1 year ago 2
3. You have absolutely no evidence to even suggest that a terrorist attack has been thwarted through the means of torture. Perhaps the explanation comes from our enhanced security measures and continuous investigations.
Torture is cruel. I don't care how it might hypothetically help, because the ends don't justify the means. We can't sacrifice our constitution, code of law, and our morality over something so useless (Sorry to write so much, I got a bit carried away).
sam4084 1 year ago 2
Somehow there has not been a terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11. Where do you think information comes from in an investigations? Secuite measures cant catch everyone. It comes from souces and arm twisting. You and everyone else can believe in whatever you want, But, would you willing to put your life or someone elses life on the line for your beliefs? I welcome you to join the anti terrorist agencies and see what goes on and how close we have come to getting attacked.
hint0122 1 year ago
because it has happened before. OJ got a fair trial and he got off. are you willing to take a chance? if one of them gets off, how about you let them live with you? in my view, listening to obama speak is cruel and unusual punishment.
hint0122 1 year ago
@hint
Can you give me an example of where torture has helped stop a significant terrorist attack, because I have been unable to find one.
Would I be willing to put my own or someone else's life on the line to uphold the constitution, our values, and our rights? In a heartbeat.
You are attempting to compare the terrorist trials with a famous celebrity's? You think that a terrorist really has a shot at getting off on a technicality?
sam4084 1 year ago
You are trying to say that it is ok for the government to hold a person for as long as they want without a trial? Really, because that goes against everything that I was taught that America stood against. Unlike you, I have faith in the American judicial system and I would bet good money that any guilty terrorist tried would be convicted.
Obama? Where did that come from? Geez man, you need to get over that election already, nobody here even mentioned him.
sam4084 1 year ago
And If torture doesn't constitute cruelty, then what the hell does? By definition it is cruel, so don't pull this whole 'it's subjective' crap. You know it's cruel, I know it, we all know it so stop trying to squirm your way through more loop holes just to be able to torture another human being.
sam4084 1 year ago
listening to obama speak is cruel to me, so who should be punished?
hint0122 1 year ago
what I am saying is, according to the Geneva convention, it is not illegal. they are not cilivans since they kill military personal. They are not members of the armed forces since they dont carry arms openly, or wear uniforms. under that, they dont have any rights. If you have so much faith that they are guilty and will be convicted, why brother trying them? You said touture is anything that can be called cruel and unusual punishment. I find that listening to obama or speak is touture
hint0122 1 year ago
=how about how KSM gave up information on planned attacks? look up KSM. if you really feel that way, work for the anti terrorist groups and see what they see. Everyone has a chance of getting off free and clear. All of them would have to do is say that they didnt get their Miranda rights read, and anything they said would be thrown out and they would be freed. It happens all the time.
hint0122 1 year ago
@hint0122
By KSM, I assume you mean Khalid Sheikh Mohammad. I don't think that citing this as your best example of torture is a wise decision. From what I remember hearing, this case was better known for being handled poorly rather than for its benefits.
As I recall he asked for his right to an attorney, was denied it, then moved to a secret prison. There I believe he was illegally tortured over a hundred times.
sam4084 1 year ago 2
Again there wasn't a known threat that they were looking for, they were merely fishing for hints. I don't believe in denying people their rights, regardless of what they have done. And I believe that the Geneva Convention does intend to cover all people by saying citizens or military. It is a loophole to say they are neither, in the end they are either one or the other. Either they are radical private citizens or they are a rag tag guerrilla militia.
sam4084 1 year ago 2
And if any of them could get off by saying they weren't read their miranda rights, then they would all have gotten off. That's just not true, and i don't want it to be. Don't think that just because I don't want them tortured means I want them to go free.
All I want is to uphold the US's policies on war, rights, and decency. We shouldn't let terrorism compromise the values and society we've fought so long to uphold.
sam4084 1 year ago
how is it not true? since they are in a civilian court, if their rights were not read to them when they were arrested, anything they said would be thrown out. you cant use values when you are dead. ask the 3000 dead on 9/11 what was their thought on values
hint0122 1 year ago
Sometimes when you got fishing, you get something good. I am sorry, but the Geneva convention does not cover terrorists. You cant be one or the other. If you are a radical private citizens as you say and you kill military personal from the other side who are in uniform, you are tried under a military court. To be considered in the military, you have to wear a uniform, carry arms openly, and be able to be picked out by the opposing force.
hint0122 1 year ago
In all your posts you have failed to address the simple fact that Cheney's torture policy CREATES terrorists.
"Mora: Abu Ghraib & Gitmo Get US Troops Killed" - ( watch?v=6wkNwjzpuH0 )
Are you claiming that you know more about the cause of terrorism than former Navy Inspector General Alberto Mora?
Or for that matter, top ex-FBI interrogator Ali Soufan (the man that interrogated Abu Zubaydah) "Senate Torture Hearings (Ali Soufan) 1/2" - ( watch?v=3jQoM0WvQpU )
im4wur2 1 year ago 4
I find that very ironic. Muslims killing muslims is never a problem. Cutting off someones head is not a problem. Why does torturing create more terrorists when what the terrorists do to their fellow muslims doesnt create an uproar? by the way, there were democrats in on it too, so dont blame it all on Cheney. Since obama hasnt closed gitmo, he is as much to blame as Cheney is. Why not go after him?
hint0122 1 year ago
@hint0122 - wrt: "Why does torturing create more terrorists " - Apparently, the concept is not something you're capable of grasping. - good luck with that.
im4wur2 1 year ago 3
try explaining it to me. try explain why does torturing create more terrorists when what the terrorists do to their fellow Muslims doesnt create an uproar and no one seems to care. Explain how cutting someones head off why they are still alive is less of a crime then water boarded someone. if you cant explain that to me , you cant explain it to anyone.
hint0122 1 year ago
@hint0122 - wrt: "Explain how cutting someones head off why they are still alive is less of a crime then water boarded someone..."
"...less of a crime..." Do you always define your morality in comparison with lowlifes?
The Untied States of America was founded upon the principle that "all men are created equal" and that we are all have certain unalienable rights. Among those is the right to be free from cruel and inhiman treatment. - ALL includes even murderers and terrorists.
im4wur2 1 year ago 2
@hint0122 - Here, maybe this will help:
"CheneySpeak Debunked" - ( watch?v=UChLuQRqo8k )
im4wur2 1 year ago 2
"CheneySpeak Debunked" excerpt:
"Listen to what a Captain in the 82nd Airborne Division wrote about the abuse of detainees that he had witnessed in Iraq and Afghanistan. In a letter to Senator McCain, he posed what he called the most important question that this generation will answer... (cont)
im4wur2 1 year ago 3
(cont) "...Do we sacrifice our ideals in order to preserve security? That Army Captain said in his extraordinarily eloquent words and in his own way that he would rather die fighting than give up even the smallest part of that idea that is America."
Apparently, you and I have different ideas about what it means to be an American.
im4wur2 1 year ago 3
we already have sacrificed our ideals. we search people at airports, phones are tapped. what it means to be American is when you follow the rules and no one else does, you are still the bad guy. My uncle served in Vietnam. He was a fire base that overlooked the border with Laos. He could see the people coming down the border, but they couldnt do anything since that would have been wrong. You can believe in whatever you want, try working with anti terrorism.
hint0122 1 year ago
So to defend freedom you have to take away freedom. Your argument defies logic and could (no will) see the end of US domination if you don't change it.
millertas 1 year ago
dont worry, since obama is in office and all of the terrorists will love us
hint0122 1 year ago
Can't accept that the republicans who got in with one of the lowest turn outs have lost the white house with one of the largest turnouts. That's democracy.
millertas 1 year ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
yeah, and now people are waking up to that obama is an idiot. if you are so anti turture, why dont you care gitmo is still open?
hint0122 1 year ago
Obama is an intellectual genious campared to his predecessor. Like many I am very disappointed he has not closed Guantánamo Bay and have told him so and will continue to until those inside are either charged and given a fair trial or released. That's how nations who believe in freedom and justice operate.
millertas 1 year ago 3
thats strange since he forgot how many states there are.
hint0122 1 year ago
if you have a way to make someone talk, even thought they get off on watching you die, without torture, work for the CIA. If you dont., shut up.
hint0122 1 year ago
Torture never works. The FBI had more success with the reverse. ie offer incentives to double cross their colleagues, but continue to argue like this (ie the ends justify the means) and you just give the crazy terriorists more ammunition to recruit suicide bombers. You can't always win with just brute force you know.
millertas 1 year ago 2
do you really think that someone who is willing to blow themselves up to kill Americans would double cross their fellow terrorists? People in the mob are one thing, they are selfish and would sell out their mother, but terrorists, who dont care about living or dying, wouldnt. so smartass, how do you win? if you have a way that would get one of them to talk, even though they get off watching people die, work for the CIA. If you dont, shut the fuck up.
hint0122 1 year ago
Like the word smartass don't you. You also know a lot about terrorists. I think it was Jesus Christ who told us to love thy enermy. Is the USA trying to win the war or just the battle? I am still trying to find how the CIA justifies torturing innocent people just like terrorists killing innocent people. You're argument is centred around "Oh Yeah They're worse than us". Two wrongs don't make a right.
millertas 1 year ago 4
Now that I think about it, dumbass is a more fitting title now that I read your comments. Yeah he said that, but did he also say what to do when they dont love you back? You can love terrorists and support their rights, but would they return the favor? If the roles were reversed, do you think they would show you the same custody? No, they would still kill you no matter what. I would rather be waterboraded then have my head cut off while I am still alive.
hint0122 1 year ago