God doesn't need us to please him as an Omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, etc. being. But what many people pass over when looking at this is that God is Omnibenevolent, or all loving, and wants us to get the best out of life and Live a Good Life. I don't think it's all about Worship, though that does play a part, but more about Knowing God, if that makes any sense.
"Explain why An All loving being wouldn't create Hell"
What do you think all loving means? Jesus instructs you to love even your enemies. Your imaginary pal claims to "love" all his children. Would you EVER lock your child in a basement and TORTURE HIM FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE? What if his only "crime" was not loving you? How about torturing him for ETERNITY, so his agony could never end? And not as punishment, because there is no hope of redemption, but just for fun. You call that love?
But that is the most common Christian belief, I believe. It is likely the one ReductioAdAbsurdum has in mind when challenging Christians.
But I shouldn't be the one taking this comment. You may have hit the wrong "Reply". I'm gonna go give him a tickle so he knows we're talking about him, and see if he'd like to argue against your . . . um . . . "Torture Until Repentance"(?) theory of the Universe.
What part about the word "eternal" do you not understand? See Matt. 18:8 ("eternal fire"), Matt. 25:46 ("eternal punishment"), (2 Thess. 1:9 ("eternal destruction"), and so on for innumerable passages. If you are redeemed after going to Hell, your punishment is not eternal, is it?
I think the big problem is people look at hell too emotionally. Compare to something a lot less harsh, like when you have to fire someone who isn't doing a good job, or telling someone a hard truth that they need to hear, It may be unpleasant, but it doesn't stop it from being necessary.
It is also important to understand that if the Christian God is real, he Hates Hell and hates people going there. The Bible is very clear, God says He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
HE doesn't really send us there, we choose our own fate, hence the free will aspect of the whole concept, you can choose to believe in God, and be rewarded with heaven, or you can choose to not believe in God and thus send yourself to Hell separating yourself from God for eternity, which is what hell is.
*rofl* What a giant crock of shit. You can't CHOOSE belief. The world would be a more interesting place if I believed in fairies, leprechauns and unicorns, but I can't simply decide to believe in them; belief doesn't work that way.
What you're talking about is deliberately brainwashing yourself, which is disgusting. Your entire philosophy is sick and immoral.
I believe because I have a valid reason to, most people would take what I consider proof and try to twist it around with flawed logic as you so clearly have. IF Hell does exist, God would have to exist to create it, you are saying that the existence of Hell disproves God, so God would have to exist to make something to disprove his existence? That is moronic and flawed logic. Just because you can't come to terms with one doctrine doesn't mean it isn't true.
"you are saying that the existence of Hell disproves God"
No, I didn't say that. Learn to read.
I pointed out that the non-existent God YOU believe in is a petty, sadistic tyrant.
Your God is a jealous God, who punishes children for the sins of their fathers for generations. He condones murder, rape, cannibalism, torture, and more. He's fundamentally immoral.
You worship him because you're a brainwashed moron.
That is pretty far from true, none of those are things I as a Christian believe are right. I believe that we are supposed to love everybody, even our enemies, and treat everybody as if they were someone you loved.
And My entire philosophy is to believe in what has the most evident truth in it, so far, I have found Christianity to be the belief that is most evidently true. You seriously need to get over yourself and try looking at things from a logical point of view, and not immediately discredit something because you don't want it to be true, I'm tired of arguing with people that do just that.
"try looking at things from a logical point of view, and not immediately discredit something because you don't want it to be true"
*rofl* That's exactly what _I_ do, and _you_ don't.
You CHOOSE to believe (you actually claim that belief is a choice) that you are the reason for creation, that you are immortal, that there is ultimate justice, that everything happens for a reason, because it comforts you, not because it's true.
God is one of the more absurd dieties. Thor is more believable.
Haha! The thought of Hell is far from comforting for me, the thought of judgment is even more discomforting for me. I'm in the military, I work on things that are used to kill people, I condone war, and terror on people, if there is any place that I deserve to go, it is hell. I'm not the best person in the World, I'd prefer there were no God, I'd rather have Thor around to worship and enjoy, but I have found there to be too much evidence for the Existence of God.
njjnkn: "I condone war, and terror on people, if there is any place that I deserve to go, it is hell"
First of all, thanks for agreeing with me that you're an immoral pile of shit.
Second, you've apparently never read the Bible. As a warmonger and terrorist, you're living by God's example. Remember, you don't need to be good to go to Heaven, you just need to believe.
No good cult would expect you to believe on evidence! Much better to believe WITHOUT evidence, according to Jesus. *rofl*
I'm not saying I'm an Immoral Pile of Shit, I'm saying that I'm not the best person out there. And you should read the Bible again if you think that I'm doing God's will with what I do. You are an idiot to assume such things, and a fool if you believe in something without evidence, there is nothing in the Bible that mentions Blind faith, only an idiot would believe in something blindly.
"you should read the Bible again if you think that I'm doing God's will with what I do"
I was raised deep in the Bible belt. I've read the Bible cover to cover more than once. You clearly have not. God is petty and violent, condoning infanticide, rape, torture and more, and regularly indulging in mass murder.
"there is nothing in the Bible that mentions Blind faith, only an idiot would believe in something blindly"
Anybody can take a Bible verse out of context and quote it to use to prove their own point, I see crazy people do this exact same thing all the time as they stand on the corner's of streets calling every woman that passes by a whore. The fact that you can do this too means nothing to me.
"Anybody can take a Bible verse out of context and quote it to use to prove their own point"
Dude, I took nothing out of context. Did you READ it? Are you so stupid that you don't know what it means? You're like a little child who, when faced with something he doesn't want to hear, responds by sticking his fingers in his ears and saying, "Neener neener!"
Accidental ignorance is forgivable. The Christian brand of willful ignorance is absolutely pathetic.
I did read it. And I could say the exact same thing to you. TO claim that you are not at all ignorant is a lie. I'll admit that There are certain things I don't know, but I haven't been faced with any facts from you and you haven't refuted any of my facts. All I have heard from you is that I'm Immoral, I'm a horrible person, you Don't like Christians, And a long list of insults. Not once have you given me any genuine evidence of why Hell wouldn't exist, just why you don't want it to.
First: that wasn't the topic. I pointed out that anyone who would create Hell and send people there for something as trivial as non-belief, is evil.
Second: the burden of proof is not on me. One cannot provide evidence of non-existence. If you had evidence, I could challenge it, but you don't. I can't disprove your imaginary friend any more than you can disprove unicorns.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
"I have heard from you is that I'm Immoral, I'm a horrible person"
No, we heard from YOU that you're an immoral, horrible person: "I condone war, and terror on people, if there is any place that I? deserve to go, it is hell." Apparently you have a selective memory to go along with your selective perception. Of course, wearing blinders is necessary if you're going to believe bronze age bullshit in 2010.
You're a lying sack of shit. YOU SAID, "there is nothing in the Bible that mentions Blind faith, only an idiot would believe in something blindly". I SHOWED YOU A WELL KNOWN PASSAGE IN THE BIBLE where Jesus chastises someone for requiring evidence, saying that those who believe WITHOUT evidence (i.e. blind faith) are "blessed". So you are (1) ignorant, (2) on the basis of your own logic, an idiot, (3) and now, a liar.
It isn't a fact that Jesus said Believe Blindly. He said Blessed are those who believed but did not see. HE didn't say they had no reason to believe, HE simply stated that they had believed Jesus was back because they trusted the people that told them, I have reason to believe what my trusted friends tell me, so I rarely ask them to prove something that they tell me. You make too many assumptions with your arguments. Hence the reason why they are opinions, not fact.
"It isn't a fact that Jesus said Believe Blindly. He said Blessed are those who believed but did not see"
Wow. You really ARE that stupid.
You said you're "a fool if you believe in something without evidence".
In John 20:24-29, Thomas refuses to believe an outrageous claim (that someone rose from the dead), without evidence. Jesus shows up, presents evidence, and Thomas believes. But Jesus tells him, "you only believe because of the evidence; blessed are those who believe WITHOUT it."
"I have reason to believe what my trusted friends tell me"
Your parents told you Santa is real. Does that mean he is?! You're as much as admitting that the only "evidence" you have for God's existence is "someone told me so", which hardly qualifies as evidence. You're a simpering moron, a credulous fool, in addition to being an immoral lair.
My parents never told me Santa was real, again, you are assuming things, like the basis of my Christian belief being that my Friends told me God is real. My friends belief in God has nothing to do with my belief in God. I'd believe in God no matter what my friends said because I found out about God's existence on my own while studying evolution. I found that we need an intelligent designer to exist, even Richard Dawkins believes this, I went on to find evidence for this designer to be God.
And there you go again, your only argument being to attack me as a person, and none of my arguments, your ability to jump around and ignore my arguments, much like the child with the fingers in the ears yelling "Lalalalala", is just astounding.
You don't watch that many interviews between people like Ben Stein and Richard Dawkins, or J.P. Moreland, or Dr. William Lane Craig. Try reading some stuff by Dr. Norman Geisler, if you are truly intent on getting an answer, Clearly mine aren't enough for you. Perhaps someone with much better credentials than I could give you the answer you are looking for.
And I don't see anywhere where you destroyed my definition of Hell. Nor did you refute my statement about how people end up in hell. And Jesus Didn't say those who believe because of evidence are foolish or wrong or that you have to believe without evidence. You never disproved any of that.
"And Jesus Didn't say those who believe because of evidence are foolish or wrong or that you have to believe without evidence."
Where did I say he did? Again, you're either stupid or a liar.
YOU said it's foolish to believe without evidence, whereas Jesus says those who do so are "blessed". That's all I said, and I backed it up by the Bible. Since then, all you've done is squirm and evade, unable to face the facts.
Also, your whole argument that God is evil because of what the Bible says shows that you are ignorant in that matter. You confused what the Bible records with what the Bible Approves. IT records, Satan's Lies, and David's Adultery, but it doesn't approve of them. Thomas Paine is quite mistaken to say that God commanded any of these Gruesome Executions.
I'm not an old man but I did recently suffer from a head injury, but that is no excuse. I Defined what hell was because you said that an all loving God would not send people to a place where they are tortured, which is a wrong definition. What I meant to imply is that The Bible gives a moral view, and a historical view at the same time. You are confusing the Historical view with the moral view. And I never said God's actions were evil, what is wrong for me to do isn't always wrong for God.
"I Defined what hell was because you said that an all loving God would not send people to a place where they are tortured"
I didn't say that. Again, you just pull shit out of your ass.
Extinguishing some people rather than letting them live forever like everyone else, is barely less evil than torturing them forever. It's also torture for their surviving loved ones, unless he brains wipes them, which would also be evil.
Say for example, It is wrong for me to destroy life because I did not create it, I have no ownership of it, that doesn't make it wrong for God, who does create life, and would have ownership of it. And who is to say that the people killed are innocent? The Bible says we are all born into sin, that is, we all have the ability to do wrong.
"what is wrong for me to do isn't always wrong for God"
Bullshit. Might doesn't make right.
Of course, you're into murder and torture, so how would you know? You're as evil as they come.
"we are all born into sin"
A perfect example of how dehumanizing your religion is, how it wallows in self hatred. It's a despicable thing to teach children, that they are unworthy unless they believe (under penalty of torture/oblivion) in an invisible cloud man. Your philosophy is as sick as your behavior.
@ReductioAdAbsurdum You left out the other half of that message. We are all born into sin. Human nature is observable, and thus, a moot point. The other half of the message is that, if God is real, there is a chance for redemption. Romans 3:23 demonstrates this idea.
You can take any quote out of context to prove any point. I suggest you do real Biblical research next time instead of just believing the word of a jaded atheist who claims that they are learned in Christianity.
What you really need to understand here is that hell isn't a torture chamber. God doesn't Torture people in Hell, also, you make it sound as though God is a spoiled child who says "If you don't follow my arbitrary rules, then I'm going to sentence you for it. You need to know that My rules are my rules, and if I don't get my way, Then I'm going to make you pay." And IF that were the case, it would be capricious for him to sentence people. But that isn't the case.
God is the most Generous, loving, and wonderful being in the cosmos. He gave us free will and he gave us a purpose. That purpose is to relate lovingly to him and to others. We aren't accidents (well my parents said I was), we aren't modified monkeys, and we are not random mistakes. And If we fail constantly to live the purpose we were designed to live, a purpose that would allow us to flourish more than living any other way, Then God would have no choice but to give us what we have asked for...
I have a few questions about Big Mama Penguin. If I accept Big Mama Penguin into my heart and dress up like a penguin would I go to "P"eaven? Does she posses batman symbol knowledge? Does she prefer king penguins over others, hence the name? Is the movie Happy Feet her inherent word?
Jokes aside you do bring up some interesting points. Such as why would he need us for his pleasure or convenience when he could give himself that feeling of happiness or importance with his omnipotence.
I suppose it's possible to trick Big Mama Penguin, if she's Batman-symbol-knowledgeless. I haven't really worked out the details yet, because, really, she wouldn't care.
I have a criticism: :) I think this video (and your other) should have more views. I hope you post them every now and then as a response to some new "popular" and different but on topic videos.
Of course it's not a criticism. I suppose your ending (asking polite criticism) made me write a sort of comment. I think it's important that you understand the ":)"
Point well taken. But what if the wager required nothing more than your honest good intentions and the choices are a pleasant v. unpleasant afterlife. Would logic dictate that it is better to believe in such a reality as oppossed to no afterlife at all -- and therefore no effect caused by our life that we can perceive after croaking.
Honest good intentions are rewarded in this life. The promise of a pleasant afterlife isn't necessary if we were to understand that being good people is rewarding in the here and now; I'd rather people act good because they think it's a logical thing to do than because they'd be afraid of hellfire if they didn't.
And if it turns out there is a heaven in store for us as a result, so much the better, but that'd just be icing on the karma cake. If you have honest good intentions, whether or not heaven exists should be irrelevant.
If there is no god, there is no purpose for the universe. While we may not know what criteria allows entry into heaven, I beleive the wager can be restated by making the reward the current perception of purpose v. believing that there is no purpose.
There are those who would argue with the claim that there's no purpose without god - maybe no purpose for the universe, but certainly for individuals. And even if there is a god, that doesn't mean there's a purpose - or if there is one, that humanity somehow fits into it; maybe the purpose of the universe has something to do with large clouds of gas, and our existence is incidental; such a twist on the wager would quickly devolve into believing things just because they'd be convenient.
Like zigbcarini, I appreciated this new spin on omnipotence.
Two other issues with the wager...
i) If there are infinate religions, it's possible praying to one will annoy the 'true' god, but praying to none is fine. Thor may hate Christians, but be ok with Athiests ;-)
ii) Picking religion gambles away living your life the way you want it. You 'may' get into heaven, but you' definatley won't be allowed to do anything that's a Christian no-no (homosexuality, casual sex, etc.)
I rather like Thor. He was a bit more accepting than old school YHWH - he was into the crossdressing, for example. Jesus did not crossdress.
But be careful with that second point. As valid as it is, there are those out there who would try to twist it into some sort of "oh you're just an atheist so you can sin." Which, of course, it's not, but I've seen that argument surprisingly often.
This is why I don't like Pascal's wager, It is logically flawed, not much of an argument, and is all too often used as some sort of trump card in an argument. And just because someone chooses to be Christian doesn't mean they can't engage in such things, it's just that it is seen as wrong to engage in things such as fornication and homosexuality. And Thor is pretty awesome
Embarrassingly, I'd never heard that angle (an omnipotent being doesn't need us for its dirty kicks) before. It's obvious, of course, once said, but still it's nice to hear something I haven't already heard a hundred times.
Is there anybody else you can point me to who has more along those lines?
I don't think I could. I believe I came to the conclusion myself. Even so, I'm pretty confident that I'm right in asserting it - if our existence were somehow necessary, that would defy His omnipotence. Seems like a simple enough issue.
Sorry I can't direct you anywhere else; I generally like to have sources for my unusual claims.
No need to apologize, I'm happy to have heard something new!
We'll have to call it the Sannit Dilemma from here on out. (Probably not a proper dilemma as worded, but it sounds better than Sannit's Counter-Wager, right?)
Pascal also never considered that any god(s), having clearly designed the world to be free of any evidence of their existence, might only admit rational people with beliefs based on the evidence presented to them: Atheists.
Those that fabricated the bible were obviously flawed personalities. This shows that 'god' wrote/directed nothing. Once you start lying (as Cheney & Bush now know) you have to lie to cover lies. Examples: "God is all powerful." It took 'god' 6 DAYS to create the universe. He was so tired he had to rest for a day. "Prayer works." Yes, even I can change the will of 'god'. "God loves everyone." Don't obey-burn forever. "God demands worship." God is insecure & has an ego problem.
Lol, this has flawed logic behind it. First of all, God isn't bound by Time, It took God absolutely no Time to creat the universe, You have to understand the Type of Literature each book of the Bible is. Genesis, is poetry, Revelation, is apocalyptic writing, Proverbs is just that, a collection of proverbs or wise sayings.
I did believe in God many years ago. My conversion story isn't a very interesting one; I just sort of took God for granted until it occurred to me that I didn't know why. When I couldn't find a reason to believe in Him, I stopped believing.
Thats a good reaon to stop believing. Unless you have a real reason to believe in something, or unless you have a knowledge claim about it, there is no reason to hold a belief in something. My reasoning for my belief in God comes from arguments from morality, probability, creation arguments, and of coarse the traditional "Which came first the chicken or the egg" arguments, but in this case, it deals with DNA, and Microbiology.
God doesn't need us to please him as an Omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, etc. being. But what many people pass over when looking at this is that God is Omnibenevolent, or all loving, and wants us to get the best out of life and Live a Good Life. I don't think it's all about Worship, though that does play a part, but more about Knowing God, if that makes any sense.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"God is Omnibenevolent, or all loving"
And all loving being would not create Hell, or even allow it to exist. Torture =/= love.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
Explain why An All loving being wouldn't create Hell.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"Explain why An All loving being wouldn't create Hell"
What do you think all loving means? Jesus instructs you to love even your enemies. Your imaginary pal claims to "love" all his children. Would you EVER lock your child in a basement and TORTURE HIM FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE? What if his only "crime" was not loving you? How about torturing him for ETERNITY, so his agony could never end? And not as punishment, because there is no hope of redemption, but just for fun. You call that love?
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
I can't see how anyone could answer this question. Especially as a god wouldn't need to sustain a soul's existence.
MishaVargas 2 years ago
I don't remember ever reading a passage in the Bible stating that you can't have redemption after going to Hell.
njjnkn 2 years ago
But that is the most common Christian belief, I believe. It is likely the one ReductioAdAbsurdum has in mind when challenging Christians.
But I shouldn't be the one taking this comment. You may have hit the wrong "Reply". I'm gonna go give him a tickle so he knows we're talking about him, and see if he'd like to argue against your . . . um . . . "Torture Until Repentance"(?) theory of the Universe.
MishaVargas 2 years ago
What part about the word "eternal" do you not understand? See Matt. 18:8 ("eternal fire"), Matt. 25:46 ("eternal punishment"), (2 Thess. 1:9 ("eternal destruction"), and so on for innumerable passages. If you are redeemed after going to Hell, your punishment is not eternal, is it?
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
Makes sense to me. I'm an annihilationist when I read the Bible literally, as long as the apocalypse of Peter doesn't count.
MishaVargas 2 years ago
I think the big problem is people look at hell too emotionally. Compare to something a lot less harsh, like when you have to fire someone who isn't doing a good job, or telling someone a hard truth that they need to hear, It may be unpleasant, but it doesn't stop it from being necessary.
njjnkn 2 years ago
You are correct. Thank you for establishing that hell is an eternal punishment.
njjnkn 2 years ago
I think the basis of arguing this should be if Hell is a morally just or morally right state of affairs, not whether you like or dislike the concept.
njjnkn 2 years ago
It is also important to understand that if the Christian God is real, he Hates Hell and hates people going there. The Bible is very clear, God says He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"God is the most Generous, loving, and wonderful being in the cosmos"
*rofl* He's a vicious tyrant. Read the Bible.
"we aren't modified monkeys"
Right, because we ARE monkeys, phylogenetically.
"he Hates Hell and hates people going there"
Then he wouldn't send people there, especially for not something as unbelievably petty as not believing in him.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
HE doesn't really send us there, we choose our own fate, hence the free will aspect of the whole concept, you can choose to believe in God, and be rewarded with heaven, or you can choose to not believe in God and thus send yourself to Hell separating yourself from God for eternity, which is what hell is.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"you can choose to believe in God"
*rofl* What a giant crock of shit. You can't CHOOSE belief. The world would be a more interesting place if I believed in fairies, leprechauns and unicorns, but I can't simply decide to believe in them; belief doesn't work that way.
What you're talking about is deliberately brainwashing yourself, which is disgusting. Your entire philosophy is sick and immoral.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
I believe because I have a valid reason to, most people would take what I consider proof and try to twist it around with flawed logic as you so clearly have. IF Hell does exist, God would have to exist to create it, you are saying that the existence of Hell disproves God, so God would have to exist to make something to disprove his existence? That is moronic and flawed logic. Just because you can't come to terms with one doctrine doesn't mean it isn't true.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"you are saying that the existence of Hell disproves God"
No, I didn't say that. Learn to read.
I pointed out that the non-existent God YOU believe in is a petty, sadistic tyrant.
Your God is a jealous God, who punishes children for the sins of their fathers for generations. He condones murder, rape, cannibalism, torture, and more. He's fundamentally immoral.
You worship him because you're a brainwashed moron.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
That is pretty far from true, none of those are things I as a Christian believe are right. I believe that we are supposed to love everybody, even our enemies, and treat everybody as if they were someone you loved.
njjnkn 2 years ago
And My entire philosophy is to believe in what has the most evident truth in it, so far, I have found Christianity to be the belief that is most evidently true. You seriously need to get over yourself and try looking at things from a logical point of view, and not immediately discredit something because you don't want it to be true, I'm tired of arguing with people that do just that.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"try looking at things from a logical point of view, and not immediately discredit something because you don't want it to be true"
*rofl* That's exactly what _I_ do, and _you_ don't.
You CHOOSE to believe (you actually claim that belief is a choice) that you are the reason for creation, that you are immortal, that there is ultimate justice, that everything happens for a reason, because it comforts you, not because it's true.
God is one of the more absurd dieties. Thor is more believable.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
Haha! The thought of Hell is far from comforting for me, the thought of judgment is even more discomforting for me. I'm in the military, I work on things that are used to kill people, I condone war, and terror on people, if there is any place that I deserve to go, it is hell. I'm not the best person in the World, I'd prefer there were no God, I'd rather have Thor around to worship and enjoy, but I have found there to be too much evidence for the Existence of God.
njjnkn 2 years ago
njjnkn: "I condone war, and terror on people, if there is any place that I deserve to go, it is hell"
First of all, thanks for agreeing with me that you're an immoral pile of shit.
Second, you've apparently never read the Bible. As a warmonger and terrorist, you're living by God's example. Remember, you don't need to be good to go to Heaven, you just need to believe.
No good cult would expect you to believe on evidence! Much better to believe WITHOUT evidence, according to Jesus. *rofl*
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
I'm not saying I'm an Immoral Pile of Shit, I'm saying that I'm not the best person out there. And you should read the Bible again if you think that I'm doing God's will with what I do. You are an idiot to assume such things, and a fool if you believe in something without evidence, there is nothing in the Bible that mentions Blind faith, only an idiot would believe in something blindly.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"you should read the Bible again if you think that I'm doing God's will with what I do"
I was raised deep in the Bible belt. I've read the Bible cover to cover more than once. You clearly have not. God is petty and violent, condoning infanticide, rape, torture and more, and regularly indulging in mass murder.
"there is nothing in the Bible that mentions Blind faith, only an idiot would believe in something blindly"
John 20:24-29
Hilarious how ignorant you are, even about your own religion.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
Anybody can take a Bible verse out of context and quote it to use to prove their own point, I see crazy people do this exact same thing all the time as they stand on the corner's of streets calling every woman that passes by a whore. The fact that you can do this too means nothing to me.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"Anybody can take a Bible verse out of context and quote it to use to prove their own point"
Dude, I took nothing out of context. Did you READ it? Are you so stupid that you don't know what it means? You're like a little child who, when faced with something he doesn't want to hear, responds by sticking his fingers in his ears and saying, "Neener neener!"
Accidental ignorance is forgivable. The Christian brand of willful ignorance is absolutely pathetic.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
I did read it. And I could say the exact same thing to you. TO claim that you are not at all ignorant is a lie. I'll admit that There are certain things I don't know, but I haven't been faced with any facts from you and you haven't refuted any of my facts. All I have heard from you is that I'm Immoral, I'm a horrible person, you Don't like Christians, And a long list of insults. Not once have you given me any genuine evidence of why Hell wouldn't exist, just why you don't want it to.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"evidence of why Hell wouldn't exist"
First: that wasn't the topic. I pointed out that anyone who would create Hell and send people there for something as trivial as non-belief, is evil.
Second: the burden of proof is not on me. One cannot provide evidence of non-existence. If you had evidence, I could challenge it, but you don't. I can't disprove your imaginary friend any more than you can disprove unicorns.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
"I have heard from you is that I'm Immoral, I'm a horrible person"
No, we heard from YOU that you're an immoral, horrible person: "I condone war, and terror on people, if there is any place that I? deserve to go, it is hell." Apparently you have a selective memory to go along with your selective perception. Of course, wearing blinders is necessary if you're going to believe bronze age bullshit in 2010.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
"I haven't been faced with any facts from you"
You're a lying sack of shit. YOU SAID, "there is nothing in the Bible that mentions Blind faith, only an idiot would believe in something blindly". I SHOWED YOU A WELL KNOWN PASSAGE IN THE BIBLE where Jesus chastises someone for requiring evidence, saying that those who believe WITHOUT evidence (i.e. blind faith) are "blessed". So you are (1) ignorant, (2) on the basis of your own logic, an idiot, (3) and now, a liar.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
It isn't a fact that Jesus said Believe Blindly. He said Blessed are those who believed but did not see. HE didn't say they had no reason to believe, HE simply stated that they had believed Jesus was back because they trusted the people that told them, I have reason to believe what my trusted friends tell me, so I rarely ask them to prove something that they tell me. You make too many assumptions with your arguments. Hence the reason why they are opinions, not fact.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"It isn't a fact that Jesus said Believe Blindly. He said Blessed are those who believed but did not see"
Wow. You really ARE that stupid.
You said you're "a fool if you believe in something without evidence".
In John 20:24-29, Thomas refuses to believe an outrageous claim (that someone rose from the dead), without evidence. Jesus shows up, presents evidence, and Thomas believes. But Jesus tells him, "you only believe because of the evidence; blessed are those who believe WITHOUT it."
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
"I have reason to believe what my trusted friends tell me"
Your parents told you Santa is real. Does that mean he is?! You're as much as admitting that the only "evidence" you have for God's existence is "someone told me so", which hardly qualifies as evidence. You're a simpering moron, a credulous fool, in addition to being an immoral lair.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
My parents never told me Santa was real, again, you are assuming things, like the basis of my Christian belief being that my Friends told me God is real. My friends belief in God has nothing to do with my belief in God. I'd believe in God no matter what my friends said because I found out about God's existence on my own while studying evolution. I found that we need an intelligent designer to exist, even Richard Dawkins believes this, I went on to find evidence for this designer to be God.
njjnkn 2 years ago
And there you go again, your only argument being to attack me as a person, and none of my arguments, your ability to jump around and ignore my arguments, much like the child with the fingers in the ears yelling "Lalalalala", is just astounding.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"I found that we need an intelligent designer to exist, even Richard Dawkins believes this"
No, he doesn't. Again, you're either profoundly ignorant and/or stupid, or you're simply lying.
"your only argument being to attack me as a person, and none of my arguments"
I obliterated your arguments THEN insulted you. Of course, there's your selective memory again.
Please tell us again why the story of Doubting Thomas does NOT mean Jesus things it's better to believe without evidence? *rofl*
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
You don't watch that many interviews between people like Ben Stein and Richard Dawkins, or J.P. Moreland, or Dr. William Lane Craig. Try reading some stuff by Dr. Norman Geisler, if you are truly intent on getting an answer, Clearly mine aren't enough for you. Perhaps someone with much better credentials than I could give you the answer you are looking for.
njjnkn 2 years ago
And I don't see anywhere where you destroyed my definition of Hell. Nor did you refute my statement about how people end up in hell. And Jesus Didn't say those who believe because of evidence are foolish or wrong or that you have to believe without evidence. You never disproved any of that.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"And Jesus Didn't say those who believe because of evidence are foolish or wrong or that you have to believe without evidence."
Where did I say he did? Again, you're either stupid or a liar.
YOU said it's foolish to believe without evidence, whereas Jesus says those who do so are "blessed". That's all I said, and I backed it up by the Bible. Since then, all you've done is squirm and evade, unable to face the facts.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
Also, your whole argument that God is evil because of what the Bible says shows that you are ignorant in that matter. You confused what the Bible records with what the Bible Approves. IT records, Satan's Lies, and David's Adultery, but it doesn't approve of them. Thomas Paine is quite mistaken to say that God commanded any of these Gruesome Executions.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"what the Bible Approves"
The Bible is not sentient, it can't approve anything. Way to worship a false idol.
The Bible records the actions of God, which are evil by your own admission (you said you deserved Hell for doing exactly what God does).
"I don't see anywhere where you destroyed my definition of Hell. Nor did you refute my statement about how people end up in hell."
Neither had anything to do with our argument. Another memory fail for you. Are you an old man or something?
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
I'm not an old man but I did recently suffer from a head injury, but that is no excuse. I Defined what hell was because you said that an all loving God would not send people to a place where they are tortured, which is a wrong definition. What I meant to imply is that The Bible gives a moral view, and a historical view at the same time. You are confusing the Historical view with the moral view. And I never said God's actions were evil, what is wrong for me to do isn't always wrong for God.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"I did recently suffer from a head injury"
That explains a lot.
"I Defined what hell was because you said that an all loving God would not send people to a place where they are tortured"
I didn't say that. Again, you just pull shit out of your ass.
Extinguishing some people rather than letting them live forever like everyone else, is barely less evil than torturing them forever. It's also torture for their surviving loved ones, unless he brains wipes them, which would also be evil.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
Say for example, It is wrong for me to destroy life because I did not create it, I have no ownership of it, that doesn't make it wrong for God, who does create life, and would have ownership of it. And who is to say that the people killed are innocent? The Bible says we are all born into sin, that is, we all have the ability to do wrong.
njjnkn 2 years ago
"what is wrong for me to do isn't always wrong for God"
Bullshit. Might doesn't make right.
Of course, you're into murder and torture, so how would you know? You're as evil as they come.
"we are all born into sin"
A perfect example of how dehumanizing your religion is, how it wallows in self hatred. It's a despicable thing to teach children, that they are unworthy unless they believe (under penalty of torture/oblivion) in an invisible cloud man. Your philosophy is as sick as your behavior.
ReductioAdAbsurdum 2 years ago
@ReductioAdAbsurdum You left out the other half of that message. We are all born into sin. Human nature is observable, and thus, a moot point. The other half of the message is that, if God is real, there is a chance for redemption. Romans 3:23 demonstrates this idea.
You can take any quote out of context to prove any point. I suggest you do real Biblical research next time instead of just believing the word of a jaded atheist who claims that they are learned in Christianity.
TheTomledo 1 year ago
What you really need to understand here is that hell isn't a torture chamber. God doesn't Torture people in Hell, also, you make it sound as though God is a spoiled child who says "If you don't follow my arbitrary rules, then I'm going to sentence you for it. You need to know that My rules are my rules, and if I don't get my way, Then I'm going to make you pay." And IF that were the case, it would be capricious for him to sentence people. But that isn't the case.
njjnkn 2 years ago
God is the most Generous, loving, and wonderful being in the cosmos. He gave us free will and he gave us a purpose. That purpose is to relate lovingly to him and to others. We aren't accidents (well my parents said I was), we aren't modified monkeys, and we are not random mistakes. And If we fail constantly to live the purpose we were designed to live, a purpose that would allow us to flourish more than living any other way, Then God would have no choice but to give us what we have asked for...
njjnkn 2 years ago
What we have asked for being eternal separation from him, and that is Hell.
njjnkn 2 years ago
I have a few questions about Big Mama Penguin. If I accept Big Mama Penguin into my heart and dress up like a penguin would I go to "P"eaven? Does she posses batman symbol knowledge? Does she prefer king penguins over others, hence the name? Is the movie Happy Feet her inherent word?
Jokes aside you do bring up some interesting points. Such as why would he need us for his pleasure or convenience when he could give himself that feeling of happiness or importance with his omnipotence.
LogicIsDying 2 years ago
I suppose it's possible to trick Big Mama Penguin, if she's Batman-symbol-knowledgeless. I haven't really worked out the details yet, because, really, she wouldn't care.
Sannit 2 years ago
I have a criticism: :) I think this video (and your other) should have more views. I hope you post them every now and then as a response to some new "popular" and different but on topic videos.
5*
ticijev 2 years ago
Your criticism isn't really a criticism. I think it's important that you understand this.
But I suppose I respect your point of view. Thanks, anyway. :)
Sannit 2 years ago
Of course it's not a criticism. I suppose your ending (asking polite criticism) made me write a sort of comment. I think it's important that you understand the ":)"
:)
cheers
ticijev 2 years ago
Point well taken. But what if the wager required nothing more than your honest good intentions and the choices are a pleasant v. unpleasant afterlife. Would logic dictate that it is better to believe in such a reality as oppossed to no afterlife at all -- and therefore no effect caused by our life that we can perceive after croaking.
ashadair 2 years ago
Honest good intentions are rewarded in this life. The promise of a pleasant afterlife isn't necessary if we were to understand that being good people is rewarding in the here and now; I'd rather people act good because they think it's a logical thing to do than because they'd be afraid of hellfire if they didn't.
Sannit 2 years ago
And if it turns out there is a heaven in store for us as a result, so much the better, but that'd just be icing on the karma cake. If you have honest good intentions, whether or not heaven exists should be irrelevant.
Sannit 2 years ago
If there is no god, there is no purpose for the universe. While we may not know what criteria allows entry into heaven, I beleive the wager can be restated by making the reward the current perception of purpose v. believing that there is no purpose.
ashadair 2 years ago
There are those who would argue with the claim that there's no purpose without god - maybe no purpose for the universe, but certainly for individuals. And even if there is a god, that doesn't mean there's a purpose - or if there is one, that humanity somehow fits into it; maybe the purpose of the universe has something to do with large clouds of gas, and our existence is incidental; such a twist on the wager would quickly devolve into believing things just because they'd be convenient.
Sannit 2 years ago
Yes, me too. Now I pray to the four winds...even Crom lives under them!!!
BradBrassman 2 years ago
Crom is displeased with all of you!!!!!!
BradBrassman 2 years ago
Hey, I've tried praying to Crom, but he doesn't listen, so to hell with him.
Sannit 2 years ago
Like zigbcarini, I appreciated this new spin on omnipotence.
Two other issues with the wager...
i) If there are infinate religions, it's possible praying to one will annoy the 'true' god, but praying to none is fine. Thor may hate Christians, but be ok with Athiests ;-)
ii) Picking religion gambles away living your life the way you want it. You 'may' get into heaven, but you' definatley won't be allowed to do anything that's a Christian no-no (homosexuality, casual sex, etc.)
winGums 2 years ago
I rather like Thor. He was a bit more accepting than old school YHWH - he was into the crossdressing, for example. Jesus did not crossdress.
But be careful with that second point. As valid as it is, there are those out there who would try to twist it into some sort of "oh you're just an atheist so you can sin." Which, of course, it's not, but I've seen that argument surprisingly often.
Sannit 2 years ago
This is why I don't like Pascal's wager, It is logically flawed, not much of an argument, and is all too often used as some sort of trump card in an argument. And just because someone chooses to be Christian doesn't mean they can't engage in such things, it's just that it is seen as wrong to engage in things such as fornication and homosexuality. And Thor is pretty awesome
njjnkn 2 years ago
To clear up what I meant here, Christians choose not to engage in these things because they are wrong.
njjnkn 2 years ago
I posted an audio response. Can't seem to get it to link here. but you can listen to it at my page.
jsloan777 2 years ago
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think I'll have to devote another video to addressing your comments; I'll get on that as soon as I can.
Sannit 2 years ago
Embarrassingly, I'd never heard that angle (an omnipotent being doesn't need us for its dirty kicks) before. It's obvious, of course, once said, but still it's nice to hear something I haven't already heard a hundred times.
Is there anybody else you can point me to who has more along those lines?
zigbcarini 3 years ago
I don't think I could. I believe I came to the conclusion myself. Even so, I'm pretty confident that I'm right in asserting it - if our existence were somehow necessary, that would defy His omnipotence. Seems like a simple enough issue.
Sorry I can't direct you anywhere else; I generally like to have sources for my unusual claims.
Sannit 3 years ago
No need to apologize, I'm happy to have heard something new!
We'll have to call it the Sannit Dilemma from here on out. (Probably not a proper dilemma as worded, but it sounds better than Sannit's Counter-Wager, right?)
zigbcarini 3 years ago
Pascal also never considered that any god(s), having clearly designed the world to be free of any evidence of their existence, might only admit rational people with beliefs based on the evidence presented to them: Atheists.
bottlezone 3 years ago
lol, If Pascal's Wager isn't really something commonly used in Apologetics becaused it isn't really any use.
njjnkn 3 years ago
Those that fabricated the bible were obviously flawed personalities. This shows that 'god' wrote/directed nothing. Once you start lying (as Cheney & Bush now know) you have to lie to cover lies. Examples: "God is all powerful." It took 'god' 6 DAYS to create the universe. He was so tired he had to rest for a day. "Prayer works." Yes, even I can change the will of 'god'. "God loves everyone." Don't obey-burn forever. "God demands worship." God is insecure & has an ego problem.
t4705mb6 3 years ago
Lol, this has flawed logic behind it. First of all, God isn't bound by Time, It took God absolutely no Time to creat the universe, You have to understand the Type of Literature each book of the Bible is. Genesis, is poetry, Revelation, is apocalyptic writing, Proverbs is just that, a collection of proverbs or wise sayings.
njjnkn 3 years ago
So religion is this huge nebulous thing that any 'religious' person can bend or twist any way they wish for whatever reason they wish.
Yeah, pretty funny. Makes me "laugh out loud".
t4705mb6 3 years ago
Sannit, were you ever a believer in God? If yes, what changed? If not, can you attribute the reason(s) for this?
GregoryRowles 3 years ago
I did believe in God many years ago. My conversion story isn't a very interesting one; I just sort of took God for granted until it occurred to me that I didn't know why. When I couldn't find a reason to believe in Him, I stopped believing.
Sannit 3 years ago
Thats a good reaon to stop believing. Unless you have a real reason to believe in something, or unless you have a knowledge claim about it, there is no reason to hold a belief in something. My reasoning for my belief in God comes from arguments from morality, probability, creation arguments, and of coarse the traditional "Which came first the chicken or the egg" arguments, but in this case, it deals with DNA, and Microbiology.
njjnkn 3 years ago
Thats how my dad was. Then his life went downhill from there. Its good to see that at the least, you still have a hot girlfriend. amen
shepherdschapelDOTco 3 years ago
That I do! Thanks for noticing. :)
VivoVitamBonam 3 years ago
^ that was Sannit, btw
VivoVitamBonam 3 years ago
Am I allowed to comment since I won't be the first one?
VivoVitamBonam 3 years ago
Yes you are. Only if you want to, though.
Sannit 3 years ago
"big mamma penguin"
-I lol'd.
klineowitz 3 years ago