A debate on gay rights under Article 377 Part 1

[ThnksFrThEmo]

@BlackRepublican2010 Uh... example of a society brought down by gay people? No mentions of Rome, please, homosexuality was there from the start and didn't bring down anything, they just spread themselves too thin over to large an area.

[deep388]

The old guy in the glasses is a douche, he gave absolutely NO proper justification and kept stammering...

[FlyinSpaghettiMnstr7]

@BlackRepublican2010 yea, go to a society where they kill u if ur gay and see how well they do. it's they complete other way around. religion causes more harm then anything in history.

[RedSeaCoral]

In 1997, Concerned Women of America reported the following regarding homosexuality and anal cancer:

Homosexual men's practice of anal sex has left many of them victims of anal cancer.One article in the New England Journal of Medicine commented, "Our study lends strong support to the hypothesis that homosexual behavior in men increases the risk of anal cancer:21 of the 57 men with anal cancer (37 percent) reported that they were homosexual or bisexual, in contrast to only one of 64 controls"

[RedSeaCoral]

"One of the more pressing issues for gay men is anal carcinoma. Several recent studies have indicated the rate of anal dysplasia to be increasing in men with and without HIV. Ninety percent of men with HIV have the human papiloma virus (HPV), while 65% of men without HIV have HPV. HPV type 16 is the most troublesome for developing cancer and is found in a SIGNIFICANT PTOPORTIONS OF GAY MEN"

thats according to the journal Nursing Clinics of North America just incase u think im making it up :)

[BlackRepublican2010]

FINALLY SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES IN FACTS

[RedSeaCoral]

im with u brother :)

[Kabutopuppy]

@RedSeaCoral that hightst rate of HIV is in African american women :D

[RedSeaCoral]

lol Mr sazji meet Mr dogsneedpleasuretoo.

i told u there where people called zoophilies, and that they justify their sexuality (as sickening as it is) like you justify ur sexuality.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral When I see a way for a donkey to give consent (how will he hold the pen to sign his name on the marriage license) I'll worry about that. I never said there are no zoophiles. You said they were people who tried to make us think they liked zoos. (Thus proving your idiocy once again.) My point is that you can't compare (though you will, again and again, and again...), consensual sex between two adults, and that between a human and an animal, or a child.

[RedSeaCoral]

@sazji You of all people are talking about constructive argument?, lol how ironic, leave the ad homonims and charecter assasination behind and then talk to me, whilst ur at it try to read between the lines as well. the word zoophillia actully means (if you bother to do some research) zoo=animal phillia=frienship or love, the two combined equals lover of animals or zoos, so im not the "idiot" here as you love saying it, its you who's totally ignorant of the facts.

[RedSeaCoral]

we can go round and round and discuss this all day but i have an exam so if you'll excuse me i'll leave you to your research and depending on how earnest you are with yourself im confident that you will realise that homosexuality will do you no good in life.

may God guide you to the straight path

peace.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral May you learn to think for yourself instead of parrot what has been told to you by your religion or your society. May you find the courage to challenge what seems obvious and look at the stories and struggles of people who have tortured themselves doing what you are advocating. And may you learn that God is much bigger than either of us, and does not easily fit into a belief system or a set of human prejudices.

[RedSeaCoral]

@sazji

lol now ur just being a hypocrite, who's parroting what exactly? arnt u parroting the popular sentiments of gay people? arnt u brain washed by their slogans of "we ae born this way except it"? gay people arnt born to be condemned to a life of hardship they choose to be gay andchoose to take on the illnesses that come with it. be the way science and my religion go very well together in condemnation of homosexuality, check up the medical facts.

[RedSeaCoral]

Although the overall rate of infection with gonorrhea is going down in many countries like the United States, the rate of gonorrhea has recently begun to rise specifically among American gay men. North America, Western Europe and other developed nations, most cases continue to be transmitted sexually between men. most cases of recent HIV infection continue to be among gay men.

[fauxindigo]

bla bla bla--- where r u getting your facts redseacoral? you just like to spew your opinion like it's based in facts.

[RedSeaCoral]

@fauxindigo

waw is that supposed to be a constructive arguments? try again and please attmpt to sound like an adult rather than a child that just came home from kinder garden.

[fauxindigo]

@RedSeaCoral how can i even talk to you seriously when you are so delusional? What's your agenda against gay men in particular? Your "facts" about gay men and std's are just plain wrong & being gay is not a choice. If it's not a choice to be straight-why would it be a choice to be gay?

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral You of all people are talking about constructive argument? Your argument consists of throwing up strawmen and shooting them down, then throwing them up again when challenged; throwing out numbers out of the context of larger issues, and when challenged, ignoring the question. You would not get very far in a monitored debate, my friend.

[sazji]

@fauxindigo Probably Joseph Nicolosi.

[sazji]

I'm not parroting anyone. I am speaking as a gay person who realized my orientation early, spent thirteen years trying in various ways including spiritual, to change it, and who finally accepted who I was. Why would a person choose to be gay? Could you choose to be attracted to men? Of course not. Science is not about condemning, it's about observing, and (non indoctrinated) medical and psychological professionals do not classify homosexuality as a disorder. End of this tiresome discussion.

[RedSeaCoral]

the big problem here in not wider socity, i live in the UK where no one dares to say anything about gay people, so the whole notion of gay people suffering to the extent which you say in my opinion is a tad to exaggerated.

the problem here is that issues of homosexuality is not adressed, what makes gay people sad is the fact that they cant find peace with a sexuality that ruins there health and puts them at odds with their fellow members of society religion, parents and friends.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral You need to look into the history of sexuality and homosexuality/acceptance in Britain. Also, look at the situation 20 years ago, or 30 years ago. People in their 30s and 40s grew up in a very, very different world than today's Britain. It was decriminalized fairly recently.

I am who I am. You can go and think that I "didn't really want to change" or "didn't try hard enough," but you really can't know what I went through. I decided to accept myself and lead a decent life.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral It makes people sad when they come up against hatred for something they simply realize about themselves. First you said it's not so bad, then you say "it puts them at odds with their society." Which is it then? I have friends here who had to leave the country to avoid forced marriage. I have friends who received death threats from their fathers. I have one friend whose extended family is right now hunting him down. You must agree that that is not an easy thing to live with.

[RedSeaCoral]

im sorry but you must have misread what i said, i never said it was "ok" to be homosexual, it never is, even if an entire nation excepts you your body wont, thats why all gay men (excluding those who are celibate) have either been infected with a sexually transmitted disease or are in great danger of it. if homosexuality is something you can never change then you must agree that other sexualities out there such as beastiality and incest are also (by your logic) a good thing as well.

[sazji]

Ιt's not okay with who - with you? I don't remember asking you for your approval. Not okay with God? That's your personal belief, not of everyone. All gay men are infected? No. All are in danger? Yes, to the extent they don't protect themselves, just like you are. Bestiality is not an "orientation," it's generally something people do when there's no alternative. And you can't talk about a "willing partner" in bestiality. So that's a non-argument. (Which you've already given.)

[RedSeaCoral]

no u didnt ask for my approval but urcertainly putting words in my mouth, words i would never say. im not bringing God into this argument, common sense and science is enough to rebuff the flawed arguments you present. if you dont believe in God than atleast acknowledge the scientific reality, scinece has already proven that genetics do not determin sexuality, scinece has already proven that its due to peoples environment and personal choice, so dont make it into something its not

[sazji]

You don't dare bring God into it because you don't dare. But your arguments about "common sense" and "science" ignore both. Common sense will tell you that whether you approve or not, homosexuality that has existed throughout human history, whether tolerated or not. Science has not "proven" anything of the sort; if you actually read it and are not making this up, you will see that such arguments presented as "science" are in fact opinions of people with a religious agenda.

[sazji]

Incest - universal taboo, homosexuality is not a universal taboo. Even incest is subject to definition. As a matter of fact, marriage between cousins - considered ideal marriages in many Middle Eastern societies - is considered incestuous in the west.

Gay to me is neither "good" nor "bad." It simply is. The rest is determined by individual behavior and subjective judgment by society.

[RedSeaCoral]

ur basically giving me two actions and saying which is worse, BOTH ARE, yes hunting down people because they're gay is not a good thing to do but that still dosnt make homosexualiy right. how can you possibly excpect anyone to condone something that is a threat to peoples health? its like saying oh well lets allow heroine addicts to consume their addictive drugs, after all it only takes place in their home and dosnt effect anyone else. two wrongs NEVER make a right.

[sazji]

You repeat the same argument but you don't back it up. Heroin is physically addictive, it's medically definable as unhealthy behavior. Homosexuality is an orientation. Two men kissing, hugging, petting, or doing oral sex is no more or less dangerous than heterosexuals doing it. Anal sex (and vaginal sex) is higher risk. Doing either unprotected puts you at risk. Since you admit that gays can be celibate, you should also be able to comprehend that they can use protection.

[RedSeaCoral]

again ur being hypocritical, i'll quote u just listen to urself "Heroin is physically addictive, it's medically definable as unhealthy behavior", homosexuality has been PROVEN by scientists that they are in much greater risk of STD'S than any other comunity on eath, even if each gay person slept oly with one partner and wasnt promiscues anal sex and oral sex which homosexual dabble in is a high risk practise which spreads STD's. so its dangerous all round.

[RedSeaCoral]

infact i'll quote u medical refferences to put a final hush to this nonsensical argument of yours.•Homosexuals account for a disproportionate number of hepatitis cases: 70-80% in San Francisco, 29% in Denver, 66% in New York City, 56% in Toronto, 42% in Montreal, and 26% in Melbourne thats an astonishing number considering the fact that homosexuals make up on average 1-2% of western society.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral I'd love to see where you get your numbers.

[RedSeaCoral]

@sazji  have i said enouhg or do yu want more facts with numbers?

[RedSeaCoral]

and if you say one sexuality is inate u'l have to except that other sexualities are unchangeable too, such as necrophillia sex with DEAD PEOPLE, beastilality, sadism a backward plessure in pain.

but the most closely related sexuality to homosexulty is incest, incest, lets say a relationship between a farther and daughter would harm no one, it is concentual and it occurs only in their private lives. yet society bands it? why? because such a relationship is unethical, and harms unborn babies.

[sazji]

Necrophilia is not an orientation. Sadism does not exist outside of a sexual orientation, it's a different issue. Incest is a universal taboo; the thought of sex with my father or brother is just as repulsive to me as it is to a heterosexual. It's also not an "orientation." It also usually involves a non-consenting victim. A father having sex with his adult consenting daughter is so rare that it's hardly an issue, but if it happens, will most likely get an "ugh" from society, not a penalty.

[RedSeaCoral]

lol thats precisely what im trying to say, you're denying something that you have no knowledge about, necrophillia,beastiality,inces­t and homosexuality fall into the one and same catagory namely sexuality, so does hetrosexuality but as we all know if it wasnt for hetrosexuals mankind wouldnt exsist.

[sazji]

You seem unable to follow a single line of discussion to a conclusion. Of course they are all under the category of sexuality. But we were talking about orientation. And there's a difference between doing a donkey because you have no other alternative, and actually finding donkeys more attractive than humans. It could happen but I'd wager it's very, very rare. So  far I haven't heard of any "donkeysexual" movement. And donkey's can't give legal consent as far as I know. A hoofprint by the "X?"

[RedSeaCoral]

hetrosexual sex that does not involve sodomy or oral stuff is not dangerous if people dont sleep around, however homosexuality requires anal sex, especially with promiscuity which is rife in h/s comunities. as regards to incest believe me it gets more than just an "ugh" from society, ITS ILLEGAL so the question is what makes ur sexuality any better, ur blaming me for condemning homsexuality but u look down upon incest? say isnt that hypocritical since incetues ppl and urselfare in the same boat

[sazji]

Haha, this is the single most idiotic thing you have said so far. Homosexuality 'requires' anal sex? Who said so? You? You've truly revealed your idiocy here.

And I never said my sexuality was "better" than heterosexuality. It simply is what it is. It involves no victim, no unconsenting minor, no frightened animal, and no potential at all for genetic disease. It simply turns you off, which is fine. Nobody is telling you to be gay; you're (I assume) straight so it's not an option to you anyway.

[RedSeaCoral]

and by the people who practise beastilaity are like you in their stance to defend the undefendable, they would not only argue that their practise is a sexuality but that its perfectly normal as it happned centuries ago same with ur argument about the native american two spirits. the real danger of homosexuality is not just to homosexuals but wider society, if we except homosexuality as a ligitimate sexuality we would have to except pedophillia.

[sazji]

Who is defending bestiality? Have you heard of a bestiality liberation front? What are you smoking my friend? The two-spirit argument was a response to your assertion that every society considers homosexuality wrong. Every society does not. So you went back to your argument (which you can only defend by saying you believe it) that "it's still wrong." You have not provided any logical argument, you have simply repeated your statement.

[RedSeaCoral]

lol im sorry where u expecting me to defend it? i find beastiality as revolting as your sexuality, im just using the argument to make u see how i see yur sexuality, not that i believe in it or campaign for it. not only do beastality people exsist but they also have taken your example and transformed their name from beastials to zoophilans? cute isnt it, they call it zoophilia, people who love zoo's, that put me off going to the zoo for a month.

[RedSeaCoral]

astonishingly similar to what homosexuals did, they transformed themselves from homosexuals to gays, call a gay man homosexual nowadays and he might looks at u as if u just insulted him, thats because deep down inside some people actully have enough self respect honesty to know that what they're doing is wrong, instead of delusing themselves into believeing the unbelieveable.

[sazji]

"Gay" began a code word they used to be able to speak without being discovered (and perhaps arrested or fired from a job, or beaten up). It's similar to how some gays today say "is he family?" or "Friend of Dorothy." Calling a gay man "homosexual" is using an outside term which he never chose, sort of like the way westerners called Muslims "Mohammedans." Yes, they are followers of Mohammed but that term was never of their own choosing.

[RedSeaCoral]

@sazji

muslims object to the term "mohammaden" because its incorrect, we dont worship our prophet Mohammad (pbuh). but why take the name homosexual offensively as some homosexuals do? they're not being linched these days in london or new york why be offended if its correct? because many homosexuals actully know homosexuality is something to be ashamed about.

[sazji]

@sazji And "homosexual" was never of our own choosing. It's a clinical term which focus exclusively on the sex, just like heterosexual. I personally don't care about that debete; a person's attitude is much more important. After all, a person can call me homosexual and still respect me, and another can call me "gay" with hatred. At the foundation of both gay and straight relationship is the basic issue of sexual attraction of course, but human relationships go way beyond that.

[sazji]

@sazji You don't introduce the woman you're married to as "my heterosexual partner," even though it would be technically correct. You call her your "wife." But I think just like any minority, the words take on connotations that change. "Negro" used to be acceptable, now it's not. Then it was "black." Negro means the same thing. Now it's African American. It wouldn't be an issue if they didn't face hatred or society's need to classify them in the first place. Same with sexual orientation.

[sazji]

The issue is not what you find revolting. I know how you see it. I would find sex with a woman revolting. But that's your sexuality, it's not my concern. Zoo- = animal. Zoo is short for Zoological garden. Zoophilia means attraction to animals, not to zoos. It's a psychological term, not a term by people trying to defend bestialilty. You just outdid your previous idiotic statement.

[RedSeaCoral]

The median age of death of homosexuals is 42 (only 9% live past age 65). This drops to 39 if the cause of death is AIDS. The median age of death of a married heterosexual man is 75 (8). The median age of death of lesbians is 45 (only 24% live past age 65). The median age of death of a married heterosexual woman is 79 (8).

[RedSeaCoral]

and you believe homosexuality is an inate thing (something which cannot be changed) then you would also have to except that pedophillia is also an inate thing which people cannot simplely get rid of, so what do you think? do you think that pedophiles should be allowed to have "free zones" like gay people?

homosexuality defies common sense, it harms your body, it goes against all if not most religions and even non religious people find it distasteful to say the least.

why bother with it?

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral Unfortunately it seems that pedophilia is in fact difficult if not impossible to change. But there's an important distinction here - two partners in a homosexual relationship enter it willingly. That is not possible between a pedophile and a young child. I certainly would not envy a pedophile.

Homosexuality does not harm anything; careless sex (whether with a woman or man) does. And neglect of one's health within promiscuity goes hand in hand with self-hatred and low self-esteem.

[RedSeaCoral]

@sazji

LOL thats precisely why i disagree with homosexuality, if homosexuality is regarded as a "normal" and lawfull thing other sexualities will follow suit, you yourself i see are one of the next level people who believe that pedophillia is a non changeable condition, if it is unchangeable as homosexuality is why then has society outlawed it? because it harms children? quite rightly, but homosexuals harm themselves so whats the distinction?

harm occurs non he less to people.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral So you can take a belief-based approach and insist that "Gays can change and should," or you can listen honestly to the stories of thousands of gay people who have gone through that struggle and suffered more as a result.

Sexuality, attraction and love frequently defy cultural norms, but homosexuality does not go against all religions, only the Abrahamic ones. Buddhism is fairly neutral on the subject, and Buddhist societies differ on the subject.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral Many Native America groups held special respect for people they considered "two-spirited," and the homophobia in India is mostly a holdover from British rule.

Why bother with it? Because it could easily be your own son or daughter who could be suffering from the hate of society, or your own hate. And whether it's your child, or another's, the pain and discrimination they suffer is the same.

[RedSeaCoral]

yes i know about the native american two spirited people but that still dosnt make homosexuality right,no matter how much you try to romanticise it its still a backward thing. if it harms your health, leads society to except beastiality incest and other forms of abnormal sexual practices it can never be right

if homosexual people wish to be released from low self esteem and unhappyness they should try to talk about their issues rather than try to delude them seleves into thinking its "normal"

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral "Right or wrong" on an issue like this is completely subjective. Your religion or system says it's wrong. It's irrelevant, homosexuality exists. The question is, how will you treat people who are gay? Will you encourage more self-hatred, or support them in finding self-respect?

The bestiality is a strawman - animals cannot be a 'willing partner," and you don't see N. Europe having fits of animal sex. Actually you see more sex with animals in societies where sex is repressed.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral As a matter of fact, in SE Turkey, where having sex with a woman before marriage is very very difficult, doing a donkey is practically a right of passage.

"Normal" is also entirely subjective. Normal in Africa is to have black hair. In Africa I'm abnormal. So what? I can't be straight (I know, I tried for 13 years and engaged in my most pathetic behavior during that time). Variation in human sexuality is normal, and homosexuality is one of those variations.

[RedSeaCoral]

@sazji

really? ae you sure about that? i have a turkish friend and "doing a donkey" has never crossed our conversation. beastiality is looked down upon in turkey and unless u have proof of what ur saying i'might as well discard it as a joke.

all societies even in the most remote of places will have its abnormal people who will have have sex with anything that movs, that however dosnt mean that the majority of clear minded people are the same.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral I live in Turkey, It's not true for the whole country, but I have many friends from the SE (a very conservative area), who have told me this. It's practically a national joke here as well. This is not generally an "orientation," any more than a convict doing a guy in jail in the absence of any other choice is homosexual orientation. It's just adaptation to the prevailing situation. Sexual orientation is a very different thing.

[SV2609]

The Muslims and Christians are afraid that all their people will become overnight Gay legally which they are already are. Pathetic that these people bring religion into this.

[queeravenger]

America isn't too far from being like this... again.

[RedSeaCoral]

thats not according to me though, the source comes from:

Susan D. Cochran, et al., "Cancer- Related Risk Indicators and Preventive Screening Behaviors Among Lesbians and Bisexual Women," American Journal of Public Health, 91(4): 591-597 (April 2001); Juliet Richters, Sara Lubowitz, et al., "HIV risks among women in contact with Sydney's gay and lesbian community,"

happy reading, any more question?

:)

[nikred]

So don't you think its high time its legalized so that these diseases can be prevented?

[RedSeaCoral]

now if you'll excuse me i have a prayer to catch up with, i trust that you can look up some medical files on your own whilst im a way.

good day

[RedSeaCoral]

25.Anne Rompalo, "Sexually Transmitted Causes of Gastrointestinal Symptoms in Homosexual Men," Medical Clinics of North America, 74(6): 1633-1645 (November 1990); "Anal Health for Men and Women," LGBTHealthChannel

if you're wondering "how do i know if this is true2 go can go check

Anne Rompalo, "Sexually Transmitted Causes of Gastrointestinal Symptoms in Homosexual Men," Medical Clinics of North America, 74(6): 1633-1645 (November 1990); "Anal Health for Men and Women," LGBTHealthChannel

[nikred]

Legalize it and they can be better educated on how to be careful and what precaution to take while having sex. Keep it illegal and that number will always remain high.

[RedSeaCoral]

actully thats a no go area as well, would legalizing pedophillia stop abusers from abusing little children? no it most certainly wouldnt.

in san francisco the syphillis cases reached such overwhelming elevels after homosexuality was legalized that heredia in 1999 reported that levels have become "epedemic", you can google it if you like its all there.

legalizing something dosnt cause the problems to go away, the public might expect something by the body wont. its an irony isnt it?

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral The reason imho for this is that San Francisco became "the place to go" for gays from all over the country who lived in hiding till then. That hiding and oppression damages people, and they do act out in excess. I still have that issue with gay ghettoes, but as long as gay people are repressed, they'll exist, and suddenly find a "free zone," it will be like unplugging a boiling kettle. I see that the new generation growing up in an accepting environment is much better adjusted.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral There are some gay people who will see me as some sort of "traitor" for saying anything negative about any aspect of gay life. But I think we do owe it to ourselves to examine how we're living. Still - gayness is not something you can outlaw and do away with. It doesn't go away, it doesn't change. It simply exists, and creating an environment where gay people growing up are not treated cruelly, will lead to much better-adjusted gay people overall.

[RedSeaCoral]

@sazji

i dont agree with treating anyone cruelly, im not a homophobe nor do i believe in opressing people, what i do believe is ethics, values which are true t goodness and sanity. when i read facts such as gay men are 17 times more like to contract anal cancer and suffer a variety ofother sexually transmitted diseases it sort of puts me off, if your sexuality is to blame for your ill health why choose to carry on with? isnt it a form of self harm or indeed suicide?

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral Homosexuality is not to blame, promiscuity and unprotected sex is. I think one has to ask, "why would a person care so little about themselves that they would not protect themselves against disease?" The answers are many, but I think it gets down to one thing - damaged personalities, low self-esteem. (There's also the fact that when AIDS first appeared, nobody knew what it was, and it spread widely before its symptoms appeared and its cause was determined.)

[RedSeaCoral]

@sazji

i agree to an extent to the promiscuity arguememnt however yu have missed something out,isnt homosexuality promiscues by nature? more than 80% of gay men practise "open relationships" tht is a relationship where there are two partners however they can sleep with other people,is this not promsiscuies?. even if promiscuity was never practised homosexuality is health threat,many gay monogenous men suffer from hepetitis, ghonoria AIDS syphilis etc. so its not just a matter of promiscuity.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral Think of marriage, and the support married couples get from family and friends - as well as the pressure they get to move through difficulties. Now think of gay people, who have been forced mostly to hide. In that sort of environment, there is incredible denial - gay men who get married to fit in and have sex (but only sex because anything more risks discovery) in secrecy. This is not an environment that encourages committed relationships. Yet many gay people still manage to do that

[RedSeaCoral]

@sazji

i dont think that forcing a gay man to marry a woman will fix everything, however if that person was given help to deal with his sexuality and the health risks where explained to them common sense and rationality would do the rest of the work.

only a person who lives for seuxal plessure would risk his/her own life and persue a sexuality which would in the long run ruin them. as i explained before promiscuity is not the only issue the very nature of gay sex is dangerous itself.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral Many many attempts have been made to change people's sexuality. It has been shown to be so damaging to gay people's psyche that a psychologist in the US who takes patients will be stripped of his license. It does not help. The only ones still doing this are religious groups, acting out of a belief, not out of understanding of them.

[RedSeaCoral]

@sazji

sexuality as scientists have extalished is purely changeable, the head of the human genome project was quoted as saying "sexuality is not genetically determined, such ideology is geneticdetermanism", type genetic determanism into google and the evidence is there. genes do not control our sexuaity.

so that theory of urs is flawed to say the least. secondly there have many COUNTLESS gay and lesbien people who have changed sexuality and succesfully become hetrosexual.

google it.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral This is an outright lie. The causes of sexual orientation are not known for sure. But no honest psychologist (one who doesn't have some other religious agenda) will tell you that sexuality is changable. Whether it's genetic or not is irrelevant. Most people who claim to become heterosexual continue struggling with homosexual feelings throughout their lives, and many give it up. To resort to a lie like this is a pitiful way to try and get in a "last word." Show me a reference.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral As for living for sexual pleasure - good point. There's another way of approaching it, and I'll speak from personal experience. I was so conflicted about my sexuality for many years, and so filled with hate for myself, that I would do anything to feel accepted or approved of by another. Sex gave a very fleeting feeling of acceptance by another. It was fucked up. And at the risk of angering some gay folks, that sort of behavior is not something I believe should be "celebrated,"

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral But the way out was not to continue trying to change myself - it was to accept myself, realize what I was really looking for, and find that in myself. It was not easy, and I still find bits of the self hate I learned growing up as a gay kid in the midwest in the 1970s. But I no longer feel the need nor desire to have quick sex with a stranger in order to feel a sense of approval or self-esteem.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral As a matter of fact, in Europe and the US, as things get easier for gay people, you find more enduring relationships with the support of friends. Interestingly, in the US it's the ultra-religious people who are fighting against sex education, against STD education for young people. In N. Europe, where kids get early education, and where homosexuality is not so stigmatized, HIV transmission is the lowest in the world. America is still extremely conflicted on the subject.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral I think people should honestly ask themselves, given that homosexuality is believed to be determined at a very early age and is not changeable, what kind of environment are we providing for the child who happens to be gay? Feminine kids get teased horribly before they even know why; they grow up hearing terrible things about gay people, and realizing that they are gay themselves can be very traumatic, accounting for a high suicide rate among gay youth.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral However this is not necessary. I see gay young people growing up much better adjusted these days; astoundingly so to tell the truth. Many of them breeze through the coming out process, something that terrified me and many like me for years. Yet in more traditional parts of the world, they face forced marriage (Imagine yourself expected and/or forced to enter a homosexual relationship), brutal treatment, and rejection by their families. This is not their fault, it's society's.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral You don't believe in treating someone cruelly, but what's more cruel to a young person than to send him a message, relentlessly, throughout childhood, that he is damnable, unworthy of love or respect, deserving of hate and abuse; of (perhaps ignorantly) telling lies about who he is? You need to understand that we tend to know who we are quite early on. Imagine having nobody to talk to because you're afraid your own parents will kick you out. Or in some places, kill you.

[RedSeaCoral]

@sazji

im not being incencitive, i myself have a friend who is going through this very same issue, she cant tell her mum because she's afraid that she will loose her love, she cant tell her sister because she's afraid she will loose all respect, but you know what? unlike many gay people she actully realises that homosexuality has 1) not made her happy 2) has placed her health in jeopardy and 3) has made her lonely because she dosnt know how to love a man but she no longer desires women.

[sazji]

@RedSeaCoral I went through that for 13 years, like I said. Placed her health in jeopardy? Lesbians have the lowest STD rate of all, lower than heterosexuals. (Think about it...) She can suppress her lesbianism (I actually was convinced I was "cured" at one point, I even gave a church testomony about it!) but chances are that she'll still find herself attracted to women in the long run. Sexual attraction is not something we "learn." It's simply not, as much as you want to believe it.

[sazji]

Isn't putting a child through that a form of abuse, or indeed, murder by installment?

[RedSeaCoral]

you might think "oh hold on hetrosexuals get this too",they certainly do,because they inagage in either similar practices or because of blood intermingling as homosexuals.not only that homosexual individuals are MUCH MUCH MORE AT RISK to these STDs than hetrosexuals.

the list goes on,because of anal penetration (something the rear cannot with stand) the anal walls become weak causing resulting in traumas that expose both participants to blood,organisms in feces, and a mixing of bodily fluids.

[nikred]

Of course if they don't take the required precautions they are bound to get infected.

wait, so you are fine with lesbianism then? They are pretty safe, eh?

[RedSeaCoral]

not really,

"Bacterial vaginosis, Hepatitis B, Hepatitis C, heavy cigarette smoking, alcohol abuse, intravenous drug use, and prostitution were present in much higher proportions among female homosexual practitioners, lesbians are not low risk for disease".

Although researchers have only recently begun studying the transmission of STDs among lesbians, diseases such as "crabs," genital warts, chlamydia and herpes have been reported.

[RedSeaCoral]

clearly this isnt the case, belief is insignificant, belief with facts are undeniable.

im not going to speak for other people so i cant tell you why people believe homosexuality is a risk to society each to their own opinion, i can only speak for my self and i can proove not what i merely believe in, that is how my religion teaches me to think and thats how science teaches me to think.

[nikred]

why are you making me rephrase the question so many times, when its obvious what the following question will be? Why do YOU think homosexuality will ruin the society?

[RedSeaCoral]

thats better, saying things properly will help you save alot of confusion, do it more and you'll be really do yourself a massive favour.

im a very health concious person so i like to look at things from a medical perspective alot, when gay sex comes into question this is what it leads to

Anal Cancer

Chlamydia trachomatis

Cryptosporidium

Giardia lamblia

Herpes simplex virus

HIV Human papilloma virus Isospora belli Microsporidia

Gonorrhea Viral hepatitis types B & C Syphilis

[RedSeaCoral]

unfortunatly many people dont think like this, alot of people in the world go with the opinion of the majority,what if the majority is coerced,fear mongered and decieved to believe in something that isnt true?,in the hitler years people where taught to think that jews where less than human,in the slave trade era blacks where considered as sub humans,so really are you telling me to go with what americans believe to be right and wrong?

are they the yard stick in which everything must be judged?

[nikred]

I just gave an example. I told you my stand on it too. Then why do you think I am saying the Americans are right.

If I was so gullible I would have been like majority of the Indians and detested homosexuality.

[RedSeaCoral]

ur "stance" needs to be clearer, you have a way of confusing me sometimes.

[nikred]

I said it doesn't matter to me as long as it doesn't affect the offspring.

[RedSeaCoral]

and detesting homosexuality is a perfectly normal thing, especially if you knew what it involves, even if you consider the non medical approach its still unatural to see to people of the same sex making out. if u consider the medical point of you LOL, if you consider that then you have an even more solid reason to destest it, its nothing near "phobia" as people like to say.

[nikred]

I am not talking about watching gay porn. I would also obviously be offended if some one starts making out in a restaurant while i am having my dinner. I have no problems with what they do indoors.

[RedSeaCoral]

as regards to counsingenious marriages (not incest as you so wrongly mentioned) are they only in muslim comunities? be careful with how you phrase things. cousingenious marriages are not the same thing as incest,if it where all societies on this planet (yes i have checked) wouldnt allow it,rather marriages between cousins happen in all societies,however when cousin marriages shuldnt be incouraged is when there's a risk of their ofspring bieng at risk of blindness and skin disorders as a result.

[nikred]

Of course you don't consider it incest but many other people consider it as incest. I know many people who frown and are disgusted by it. They think its immoral. That is the reason why I don't depend on morality. It is contradicting based on ones religion and own set of values.

Instead to decide what is right or wrong you should use logic. How does an action affect a person, a community etc and it is always not necessary for the might to be right.

Firstly, why people fear homosexuality?

[RedSeaCoral]

specially when someone marries their third cousin, or their step aunts son their's very little genetic link, this means if those people had children there's no evidence that children would be deformed, it would be as normal as people who dont marry their cousins.

now for homosexuality, why do people fear homosexuals? i dont know, if i was i homphobe i would probably tell you but unfortunatly i dont have the same mindset, its probably due to disgust though.

[nikred]

My question should have been, why people fear homosexuality will ruin the society?

[RedSeaCoral]

and if i may add, canabalism is a threat to human beings, if someone is a canibal they are basically the same as a wild animal who can harm people, thats why you cant equate eating chickens to eating humans, human beings need to eat meat its part of a balanced diet. but do we need to become homosexual and open a box full of sociological problems? especially in a time of turmoil and countless wars?

thats a bit much, the world needs stability not another set of problems.

[nikred]

While we are at it why not get rid of religion too, just look at how many human lives are lost due to it.

You don't need to become homosexual. But acting as if it doesn't exist by burying our head in the sand wont make matters any better either. But what they do in private in what way is it affecting you is beyond my understanding.

Society has always been narrow minded. It always had the might is right approach.

[RedSeaCoral]

religion is not the issue of war, its the actions of men. so "getting rid of religion" dosnt solve the problem of unending wars wars, you only need to look at marxism, comunism and maoism.

no one is acting as if homosexuality dosnt exsist so i dont know where you got that notion from, its the fact that concerned people like myself acknowleging that homosexuality does exsit that we speak out rather than just conform to the pressures of gay rights lobbyists who twists society for the worse.

[nikred]

Alright, can you give me few LOGICAL pointers how it will affect the society.

[sazji]

No, he cannot. He is arguing based on a religious belief, and as soon as he gets anywhere close to being forced to actually consider a point, he will change the subject. He's brought cannibalism into it for God's sake.

[nikred]

BTW dogmatic religions is the cause of many conflicts in this world. Yes man will still find other reasons to fight but organized religion is just one of those factors for differences between people. Any school of thought that teaches you are right others are wrong, in my view is dangerous.

[RedSeaCoral]

the comentator is obviously biased,when it comes to the anti gay corner he constantly hackles them but on the other hand allows the pro gays to have their say

if homosexuality was legalized on the basis of a persons personal privacy than i fear that one day pedophillia,beastiality and even heroin addiction will be legalized. undoubtably india is aping the west,i used to think that bollywood was a bit off but this really takes the biscuite

i bet all the pakistanis are laughing watching this

[nikred]

You are using flawed argument here. When talking about homosexuality talk only about it not pedophilia, bestiality etc.

Its like a vegetarian saying "first they say they will eat chicken tomorrow they will eat humans". Just because it is wrong to eat humans you can't condemn me for eating chicken.

What you are doing is called "comparing apples and oranges"

[RedSeaCoral]

pedophillia, homosexuality, beastiality, necrophillia and all the other abnormal sexualities out there all fall under the catagory of sexuality.

eating KFC chicken isnt the same as eating a human being, that falls under the catagory of canabalism.

[nikred]

homosexuality is sex between consenting adults others are not. If you are so sure about your stand you don't have to club it with other things. You can debate it as a separate issue.

I know the difference between eating chicken and humans. That's the whole point of my statement. It is ridiculous to club different issues to it to make a point on one issue.

[RedSeaCoral]

you dont know the difference bwteen eating humans and chikens? i sure do. i hope u get it some day.

that aside let me focus on the pending issue, if your grounds for supporting homosexuality is that its between consenting adults why not also support incest? why does society ban a father from sleeping with his son or mother from sleeping with her daughter? surely they have meet your requirment of actions done in privacy and consent?

[nikred]

oh god, you are thick...you are not getting my chicken-human argument you are just strengthening my very statement.

aah incest. Do you know many consider sex between cousins as an incest. Can you dare to stop muslims from marrying their cousins. First of all morality is vague and overrated. What is moral to one person is not moral to another. Basing laws on morality wont stand in a multi cultural environment. In other words logic not morality should decide an issue.

[RedSeaCoral]

no need for ad hominems here plz, lets try to keep this as civilized as possible shall we? its not religion in this case which is causing the tension, its your crude name calling. avoid it at all costs.

of course im not getting your argument for the chicken-human ideology, eating a chicken for protien and eating your fellow man as a predetor is logically wrong, you dont wanna discuss morality, it seems off putting to you? fine lets discuss "logic" and how that works.

[nikred]

I didn't realize you were a muslim. oh great.....you might have thought I was personally attacking you. If I came off too strong, I am sorry. But I still stand by my point that religion does have its drawbacks.

The chicken-human thing is that when you talk about chicken consumption you discuss only about that but you wont say that will lead to consumption of humans because there is no connection same way when talking about homosexuality stick to it don't get necrophilia and stuff.

[RedSeaCoral]

you're forgiven, LOL just dont make the mistake twice :)

the very definition of incest is sexual contact with ones imidiate family members, that is brother sister, father mother and granparents, now with cousins, its different, for example a cousin is the product of uncles/aunts combined with another persons genes, if someone marries ones cousin its not incest because they are the product of a combination of two people with differen genes. thats why cousingenious marriages arnt incest.

[nikred]

For you its not incest but for many Americans it is incest. Each have their own definition. Many consider marriage between first cousins also as incest. There are people within Hinduism too who marry first cousins but my family considers it as incest.

Let me clear my stand on this. I don't really care as long as the marrying couple first have a checkup to see if they have any common recessive gene which can affect their offspring.

[RedSeaCoral]

what people believe isnt my concern, if i cared about what americans thing of this and that i wouldnt be a free thinking individual (and i say that with the least amount of disrespect).americans also happen to believe in santa claus, that israel should be protected at all costs even if millions of ennocent indiginous people loose their lives. what people believe in really isnt that significant unless it has a function and practicality, with practicality i mean that it shouldnt cause harm.

[sazji]

The point is, dear, that your particular definition of incest, or morality, or "right" is not universal. It is your own, it's something you chose to believe because it was told to you, but you speak of it as if it's universal. Yet you have no defense of that stance, other than repeating it, or, when cornered, throwing in a red herring to avoid the issue. It's classical religious bigot argument; you are no different than an ignorant American fundamentalist.

[sazji]

You are obviously so incapable of logical debate that it's beginning to look a bit pitiful. You bring up the same arguments over and over, and when these are challenged, you just repeat yourself, with no logical response. That's the sign of a religious dogmatist being forced into a corner. Anything but step outside the box of your thinking.

[sazji]

You continue to ignore the central issue - with pedophilia there is no legal consent. A donkey cannot give legal consent. Heroin addiction is completely irrelevant. Yet I'd say the Dutch handle that issue much more effectively than they do in the US, where a purely legal approach is taken. Your fears are of your own creation.

[Quick81]

People, there are so many more pressing issues in the world today that whether or not people are gay, straight or bi is very much inconsequential. Overpopulation, famine, energy shortages, pollution, financial crisis to name but a few and on here people spend their time dreaming up ever more elaborate ways of insulting one another, how can such a small minority bother the rest of the world so much and to fire insults on this platform is very much like firing blanks. Preach peace.

[saadaya]

i think homosexuality is legitimate ... plus there are 6 billion people on earth - do we really need to continue breeding like this? Next time there's a great famine on Earth it's possible billions of people will die due to lack of resources.

[view587]

What they are asking??? homosexuality among the same sex??? Did Mr Faruqi just say that? Mr Faruqi is such the new George Bush! Total Twat!

[yvantyka]

Erm Kamal Faruqi what makes you think we are part of your society? Delusion might not be a word in your vocabulary at the moment but do try to acquaint yourself with its meaning at some stage of your life. You might need it given your particular bent.

[humbleRaj]

why did they Remove your comment. I Dont understand whatz wrong with these youtube channels.

And well said Dear Friend.

[yvantyka]

Thanks Dear Friend too. I removed the previous comment myself- had a spelling error so just replaced it! (I am a lawyer) ;)

[humbleRaj]

Fight for Our Rights Dear. I am Glad, You are figting for Our Rights.

[humbleRaj]

Arnab, you are a Fool for stating Western European Countries are Christian.

Ask Any Educated Person in Western Europe do they believe in Christ and The First thing they would reply is are you in The Dark Ages.

and why did you invite this lowlife mofo dominick who is bringing irrlevant stuff of attack on christians.

[masculinity2007]

Isn't article 377 about J&K ...?

[humbleRaj]

hahahahahaha

You are confusing between Articles of Indian Constitution and Sections of Indian Penal Code.

Further, The Article Relating to J&K is Article 370 and NOT Article 377

[sambhav846]

I feel proud when I say I am Indian... Now I even feel more prouder when I say I am an open and Proud Indian Gay,.............

[GodsOfWar666]

fuck u gay..

[ksm1031]

I am a white (caucasian) American male. Please don't think I'm silly for saying this. But I think Indian people & culture is very interesting & beautiful. I hope that one day I may journey to India. That I may visit the many ancient Temples and other places. Personally I feel Indian men are very intelligent & attractive. I can imagine spending my entire life with such a person. Many American women I'm sure find Indian men very attractive. I think so too. I also support repeal of Article 377.

[AMIT123]

thank u 4 ur support

[humbleRaj]

We Are So Thankful to You for Your Sweet Comments :)