Does Courtney still have Kurt's ashes? Cause in the last interview I seen of her in the mid 99s on you tube she had locks if Kurt's hair and his ashes with incenses and candles lit on the table 0.0
Knowing her stupid ass she probably gave his ashes to charity like she did to all his stuff that he owned I'm sry Courtney I do love you and Kurt very very much! But sometimes I think this bitch is full of bs I think she was jealous of Kurt!
@caliemogirl91 Kurt's ashes were reportedly distributed in 2 or 3 different locations -- in Olympia, with some of his family present, and also into the Wishkah River, near where he grew up. Love once claimed that Kurt's ashes were stolen from her, but that story proved to be false. Courtney has a bad habit of making shit up, exaggerating things, and generally being a drama queen. It's unfortunate, because it makes people doubt her, and makes them believe these conspiracy theories.
Where's the "proof" the coroner was corrupt??? There is none. He had no reason to lie, and jeopardize his career. If he wanted to deceive the public, he could've simply denied the morphine level. He didn't. Two other medical examiners viewed Cobain's body at the scene. You'd have to believe this is a cover up conspiracy that goes from the SPD to the King's County Medical Examiner's Office. And based on what? The fact that Hartshorne booked bands in the late 80's/early 90's?? LOL.
There's no proof of cadaveric because the body's gone and Courtney's hiding the autopsy report, capiche? Where's the fucking proof? Because some corrupt coroner said so? Haha.
Read Ian Halperin's "Love&Death", read all of Tom Grant's stuff -- these are the main sources of the conspiracy theories, and not even these people are stupid enough to assert that Hartshorne lied about anything. Cadaveric spasm not only proves that the gunshot killed Cobain (and not the heroin), it's forensic evidence that the muscles in Kurt's hand were contracted and tightly gripping the gun barrel at the exact moment the weapon was discharged.
Oh, Hartshorne didn't lie about the cadaveric thing because he didn't lie about the morphine? You have to lie about everything or you haven't lied? What kind of logic is that? There are stupid people, all right. People who think Courtney is innocent.
Your theory makes absolutely no fucking sense. If his intention were to mislead the public, why not simply deny a morphine level that was unofficially leaked in the first place? If there were really no cadaveric spasm, there wouldn't be any mention of the condition in the autopsy reports, and Hartshorne would be just as at risk of exposure as if he had denied the morphine level. I'll bet that if video footage of Kurt killing himself surfaced, you'd say Courtney Love faked the tape.
Who gives a shit what "most" people think?? Most people are fucking stupid, and willing to believe just about anything. Be a sheep, for all I care. Otherwise, think for yourself and form your own opinions.
If Hartshorne was going to "lie" about the autopsy reports, why wouldn't he simply deny the unofficially leaked morphine level?? The only reason you think he "lied" is because you want to deny the implications of the condition that the medical examiners diagnosed in Kurt's left hand.
Why should she have to? The authorities aren't charging her with any crimes, and there is nearly zero support for these murder theories from Cobain's next of kin. None of that changes the fact that Hartshorne couldn't "lie" about the condition of Kurt's body. If he were going to lie, he could have simply denied the leaked morphine level. Not even the writers of "Love&Death", or Tom Grant, are willing to insinuate that Hartshorne "made up" anything.
He couldn't -- and didn't -- "make up things" for the same reason that he couldn't deny the reported morphine level: the autopsy reports would dispute him, and so would the 2 other King's County medical examiners that viewed Kurt's body in the greenhouse.
What proof is there that the King's County medical examiner's office was "corrupt or negligent" in Cobain's case?? Wait, lemme guess, you're going to bring up the allegations against Sgt Cameron, who retired early because he was accused of stealing cash from crime scenes. That's neat, but where's the evidence linking anyone involved in Kurt's case to a payoff?? There is none. People like you would rather believe something that has no evidence than look at the facts.
@x0PUNKER0X Interesting, I thought I was talking to "99percentinLA". Oh well, guess you'll do. The medical examiner could not "make up" anything about Cobain's autopsy reports, for the same reason that he couldn't (and didn't) deny the leaked morphine level -- the autopsy reports would dispute him if he lied. Cadaveric spasm and regular rigor were used to determined both cause of death and approximate time of death, and would be part of the medical examiner's record.
@99percentinLA The fact that Cobain's hand was locked in a cadaveric spasm around the gun barrel comes from Nikolas Hartshorne, the medical examiner that performed Cobain's autopsy. Are you saying that Hartshorne was not a medical expert??
Kurts body is no longer available for examination, thus all these wild claimslike cadaveric spasm (made by people who are not medical experts) that ultimately prove nothing.
There is no evidence of cadaveric spasm in the case of Kurt's death, and it doesn't explain a lot of other problems with the crime scene, like the bullet shell landing the opposite way the gun barrel was pointing, an indication the gun was moved after being fired.
@poohpoohbox2 Cadaveric spasm in Kurt's left hand around the barrel of the gun means that the muscles in Kurt's hand had to be contracted/flexed at the time of death, not simply "held in place" by someone. It's sound forensic evidence that Cobain was alive and willfully squeezing that shotgun barrel with the muzzle in his mouth, and the barrel against his chest - exactly what you'd expect to find in a suicide - at the exact moment the gun was discharged.
Yes, that is the biggest flaw in the suicide theory. It's easy for people who have never seen a person on heroin to think that they can do all the things Kurt needed to do after injecting himself.
Beyond that, the SPD had the handwritten suicide note to examine, and they also had the letter that Kurt left at the scene of his OD in Rome a month earlier to compare the suicide note against. A Washington State forensic document analyst concluded the entire suicide note was penned by Cobain. All of the other opinions on the note you hear about were inconclusive and were based off of bad 2nd generation photocopies of the note, not the handwritten copy.
One of the coroners who viewed Cobain's body and performed his autopsy, Dr. Harthsorne:
"With gun suicides, you always still see the victim gripping the barrel of the gun. That's because at the point of death, the hand freezes in place. We literally had to pry that shotgun from Cobain's hands. You could still see the markings in his palms from where he had been gripping it for days. That's a sure sign the wound was self inflicted. That kind of evidence doesn't lie."
Haven't we all been depressed and even thought about suicide at points in life? This doesn't prove he killed himself, particularly with all that heroin in him and Courtney with a motive for murder.
For those who don't know, believers in the murder theory believe there were 3 attempts on Kurt's life.
1.) May 2, 1993
2.) March 2-3, 1994
3.) April 5, 1994 (where Kurt died)
The first attempt was covered up by the police who blacked out the police report. The only thing that was supposed to be blacked out is names and address, not entire paragraphs. An informant revealed that in the blacked out portion Courtney gave a cocktail of drugs to Kurt against his will while he was unconscious
@TheStarfkr There's no legitimate evidence that any attempts were ever made on Cobain's life by anyone. Watch the Foo Fighters doc "Back and Forth" - Dave Grohl says that he talked to Kurt over the phone after he returned home from the OD in Rome. Kurt told Dave that he was drinking champagne and taking pills, apologized to him, and said it was "a mistake". Kurt took responsibility for the OD. The "1st attempt" you mention is pure conspiracy conjecture.
The police record for May 2, 1993 exists and has a considerable portion blacked out. As far as the Rome Incident goes, the rohypnol was in Courtney's name. Rohypnol causes memory loss. Kurt stated several times he was not quite sure what happened. Just because he took the blame doesn't mean he actually remembered. Also, there are discrepencies in the timeline of when Courteny discovered Kurt & when she called the ambulance. In the 1st version she waited 2hrs.
You need to research the case. Very strange thing. Other discreprencies about the Rome Incident, other than how long Courtney waited before calling the ambulance are 1.) Who called the media as they were there to film it, 2.) How was Kurt found, Courtney has given several different versions, one with Kurt having money in one hand and a note telling her he's leaving her in the other hand, 3.) why Courtney went against the dr's reccommendations and moved a comatose Kurt.
@TheStarfkr I've read all the same conspiracy stuff that you have: cobaincase, justiceforkurt, the "Love&Death" book. Your arguments about Rome being a supposed "murder attempt" are all based on conjecture and gossip. Kurt called Dave after his OD in Rome and told Dave that he took the pills and drank the champagne. If he was supposedly the victim of a "murder attempt", why was he accepting responsibility for the overdose?? Too much gray area here, no evidence of foul play.
I've already gone over this. Rohypnal caused memory loss. Just because Kurt accepted blame doesn't mean that's what actually happened or that Kurt even remembered it. Kurt made several statements that he didn't remember what happened that night.
@TheStarfkr If Kurt really didn't remember what had happened, then why was he accepting the blame to Dave?? Why not just tell Dave that he didn't remember, and blame the drugs for his memory loss?? Instead, he tells Dave he was "taking these pills and drinking champagne" and apologizes to him. That's from the mouth of this supposed memory loss victim.
That's an unreasonable question. Why did Kurt take the blame? Who knows. Taking the blame doesn't mean he remembers it or that he was actually responsible.
@TheStarfkr Exactly - you DON'T know why Kurt accepted the blame for the overdose in Rome, so it's at least possible that he accepted the blame because he DID remember what happened and he knew he was to blame for his own actions. There's no evidence or proof that Rome was an attempt on Kurt's life.
And you don't know why either. I'm not going to put myself in Kurt's head and try to speak for him and I don't want to see you trying to speak for Kurt so drop it.
@TheStarfkr Of course I don't know why Kurt admitted to Dave that he took the pills and drank the champagne, NOBODY does because we weren't there, that's the whole point. There are more questions than answers. The burden of proof is on the people claiming that Kurt was murdered, and so far, there isn't any evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Duh.
You do realize that like in a Grand Jury they are not required to prove beyond reasonable doubt only probable cause. That's the best case scenario here, that public pressure can make the SPD reopen the case, as it was never properly investigated, and a grand jury could possibly be formed.
@TheStarfkr You do realize that a grand jury doesn't rule in favor of guilt or innocence, and that a trial would still have to occur, where Love's guilt would still have to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, don't you??
Uh, duh! A grand jury's conviction is then used to begin prosecution. Nice trying to repeat what I've alreay written and than act like you somehow know more about it than I.
@TheStarfkr Grand juries DO NOT CONVICT OR EXONERATE PEOPLE. They can only rule that charges can be brought, in which case a trial still has to occur! You act like a grand jury could convict Love, which shows that you don't understand what the function of a grand jury is.
Duh! Preaching to he choir! You act like I don't know this stuff, you are quite wrong. A grand jury conviction would pave the way for the prosecution. You keep feeding me back the things I have told you and then you act like I'm the ignorant one.
@TheStarfkr And yet you continue to use the word "conviction" in conjuncture with a grand jury's ruling in favor of prosecution. They can only rule on account of there being sufficient evidence for prosecution, that is not a ruling on the guilt or innocence of the accused. If you understand the concept, then use the appropriate terminology.
I believe Courtney told the truth by accidentally slipping up in the interview. Except that I don't believe it was a suicide note nor do I believe she found it when she claims to have found it. I believe that is was most likely another note Kurt left her telling her their marriage is over. And I believe this is why she was told to get rid of it because if the public were to find out then it would cast doubt on the suicide theory.
@TheStarfkr Courtney claimed she found the "2nd note" under her pillow. Grant was shocked and questioned her about this because he had tossed the couple's bed for signs of Kurt's presence/drug paraphernalia just before Kurt's body was discovered, and found nothing, let alone a note under her pillow. There's no evidence that this note ever existed, and Love had never mentioned it before that interview, conducted 7-8 months after Kurt's death. Love didn't "slip up", she made it up.
It was yet another attempt to convince the public that Kurt was suicidal. This is a common tactic and there is an official term for it but I can't recall it offhand. When a murder is committed and it is staged as a suicide the guilty parties will invent a suicidal history as part of the deception. I firmly believe Courtney had a note, just that it wasn't a suicide note and she didn't find it under her pillow.
@TheStarfkr If you don't believe the part where Courtney says she found this supposed note under her pillow, then why do you believe that the thing actually exists at all?? The entire story was obviously made up, as an attempt to make the people reading the interview believe that Kurt wanted her to know how great her (Hole's) album is and that he's really sorry he left everyone behind. It was a self-serving fabricated story to boost public opinion of her and her band, not a "suicide trail".
Why do I believe it? Because it was yet one of many of the things Courtney did to convince the public that Kurt was suicidal. The note was most likely just another note where Kurt was telling her the marriage was over and this is the reason why she was told to get rid of it because people would start to doubt the "official suicide note". Use your brain. SPD asks her for a smaple of handwriting and she gives them the Rome note while claiming it's a suicide note. Duh.
@TheStarfkr Use YOUR brain, dummy!! You don't believe a single word that Love says about ANYTHING, but you believe that this "2nd note" existed, even considering NO ONE other than her claims to have ever seen it?? And Tom Grant says it definitely couldn't have been where she claims she found it?? It doesn't matter whether or not she claimed the Rome Note was a suicide note - the forensic analysts examine the penmanship, they don't interpret the content, DUH, and the entire note was 100% Kurt's.
Don't call me a dummy when you are the dense one. You know what the term 'suicide trail' means yet you can't seem to understand that's what Courtney was doing. 1.) Courtney claims the Rome Note was a suicide note and gives it to the SPD as an example of Kurt's handwriting. It's called 'suicide trail". 2.) Courtney claims she found a second suicide not = Suicide trail. 3.) Courtney claims Kurt brought a gun into the hospital room = suicide trail, I can go on and on here.
@TheStarfkr LOL What truly amazes me is how you can be SO skeptical of the official ruling, but also refuse to turn that same skepticism onto Grant's "evidence" and question the murder theory, which is exactly what I'm doing. Kurt also told a journalist that he and Courtney contemplated suicide after Frances was born. Kurt himself often talked of being depressed and wanting to kill himself. Courtney's version of things is typical of her: drama, embellishments and lies.
What Azerrad? Please. Kurt talked about how his stomach pains make him question suicide and that was cleared up when he was properly diagnoses has having scoleosis.
Courtney was laying down a suicide trail to convince the public Kurt was suicidal. This behavior is associated with murders staged to appear as suicides. It is now well known but at that time in 1994 it was not well known.
@TheStarfkr Kurt talked about being depressed and suicidal at different points in his life to several different journalists. He talked about being depressed and suicidal in high school, and later on because of his stomach problems, and later because of his drug addiction and the press hounding him and his band over it. Kurt went to rehab and then fled rehab. Courtney didn't have to "convince" the public of Kurt's instability and history of making suicidal threats, Kurt did it himself
No matter how many times I post things from people who actually knew Kurt saying he wasn't suicidal. No matter what quotes I post saying how Kurt was making plans and was at a happy time in his life, debunkers like you do not care and the truth goes right over your head because you aren't even looking for truth. People who are suicidal usually don't make plans for future activities nor do they usually want to go through divorces.
@TheStarfkr The only examples of "plans" that murder theory believers can point to are a fishing trip with his grandpa and his recording session with Stipe. Kurt CANCELED the trip with Stipe just before going to rehab and never said ANYTHING to him about rescheduling! No matter how many of Kurt's friends/family (Novoselic, Grohl, Wendy O'Connor, Dylan Carlson, Don Cobain) say that Kurt killed himself, people like you continue to ignore them and instead believe in this conspiracy!!
One more time..Kurt made plans to go through with a divorce with Courtney, including excluding her from his will. Kurt made plans to go fishing with is grandfather. Kurt's last message he left with Courtney, something she kept secret and didn't tell the police, was "Elizabeth's phone number is ......". Meaning he may have had plans with her. She is believed to be a painter. Kurt may have cancelled the flight but he didn't cancel the project.
@TheStarfkr For whatever reason, Kurt decided not to actually file for divorce. Read Everett True's book, he interviewed Rosemary Carroll for it. Even she says she wasn't sure how serious Kurt was about actually going through w/ the divorce. Fishing plans with grandpa mean squat, Kurt could have simply been paying him lip service. Your thoughts on Elizabeth are just conjecture, and Kurt offered Stipe no thoughts on wanting to re-schedule the session.
People have been *wrongfully* convicted on circumstantial evidence as well. I'd like to see an independent re-examination of the full autopsy reports and the *handwritten* suicide note. 'Til then, I still see plenty of room for debate both ways.
And hey, proving his widow (not ex-wife, they were married when he died) is a bitch and that she had a possible motive might be reason to be suspicious, but it doesn't prove that a crime was committed, especially considering the medical examiners at the scene had forensically sound reason to believe that Cobain was indeed tightly gripping the gun against his chest when the shot killed him, as evidenced by their diagnosis of instantaneous rigor in Kurt's left hand around the gun barrel.
Dr. Hartshorne, the guy who did the autopsey, was Courtney's friend since the 1980s. They had regular dinner dates and were seen in public until his death in 2002. I would think it would be a conflice of interest, but he apparantly did not.
@TheStarfkr Hartshorne booked gigs for Seattle area bands, he knew A LOT of the musicians in Washington at the time, including Kurt and Nirvana, as well as Courtney and Hole. Hartshorne was also only ONE of THREE King's County Medical Examiners that arrived on the scene that day to examine Kurt's body, and they all had to come to a consensus before a verdict was reached.
Dr. Hartshorne was the only one to have made the rounds on t.v. and in documentaries claiming it was in his words, "a classic suicide". Just how "classic" is injecting yourself with 3 x the lethal dose of heroin and then eating a bullet? At no time did Dr. Hartshorne ever reveal his long-term friendship with Courtney.
@TheStarfkr Hartshorne was specifically targeted for questioning BECAUSE it was pointed out that he booked bands and had a *possible* conflict of interest because of it. The coroners that viewed Kurt's body at the scene diagnosed a cadaveric spasm of Cobain's left hand around the barrel of the shotgun. The condition is an instantaneous freezing into place of certain muscles (usually the hands) that are contracted in the victim's last act of life - it means Kurt was squeezing the gun when he died
Look it up. The same scenario can be replicated by a vaireity of means. For example, if a gun is placed in positing prior to rigor mortis an almost identical scenario is created. What you are failing to understand is that is all interpretation and not solid facts.
@TheStarfkr Your statements about cadaveric spasm are incorrect. From "Forensic Pathology Online", regarding cadaveric spasm:
"This condition is of great medico-legal importance. Occasionally, in case of suicide, the weapon, e.g. pistol or knife, is seen firmly grasped in the victim's hand which is a strong presumptive evidence of suicide. Attempts may be made to simulate this condition to conceal a murder, but ordinary rigor does not produce the same firm grip of a weapon."
I just went over the police records. Kurt's finger was not found on the trigger, thus this is moot and has no bearance on the case. Where did you say you learned that Dr. Hartshornes said this was the case?
@TheStarfkr You wouldn't expect his finger to be found on the trigger - you'd expect the weapon to be found in his hand. His left hand was frozen in a death grip around the barrel of the gun. From Hartshorne:
"With suicide, you always still find the victim gripping the barrel of the gun. That's because at the point of death, the hand freezes in place. We literally had to pry that shotgun from Cobain's hand. You could still the markings in his palms from where he had been gripping it for days."
Look at the police records. His left hand was NOT frozen in a death grip. It just lists the left hand was wrapped around the barral and this can be accomplished via staging the scene prior to rigor mortis.
@TheStarfkr The police reports confirm that Cobain's left hand was wrapped around the barrel of the gun. They also mention that there were markings in his hands consistent with firing the weapon. Hartshorne is on record saying that they "literally had to pry that shotgun from Cobain's hand". Are you suggesting that Hartshorne lied about the condition?? Regular rigor mortis does NOT produce the same firm grip of an object.
WTF is wrong with you? I've already given you a link about how this does not prove suicide and that it can and does appear in homicides. It is caused by the sudden release of chemicals in the brain and can be replicated like in a murder staged to appear as a suicide.
@TheStarfkr WTF is wrong with YOU?? I've already TOLD you that cadaveric spasm occurs in both homicides and suicides, and IS NEVER DESCRIBED AS OCCURRING IN UNCONSCIOUS VICTIMS. Whether murder or suicide, the condition occurs in victims that were PHYSICALLY or EMOTIONALLY STRUGGLING just prior to death. Show me one more case of cadaveric spasm being diagnosed in a victim that was thought to be unconscious at the time of death.
You are being extremely ridiculous. Serioulsy, WTF is wrong with you? Cadaveric spasm is not caused by muscle exercise. It is caused by the last mad dash of brain signals and chemicals at death. If Cadaveric spasms were found in Kurt's hand that is not proof that he shot a gun, merely that the gun was in his hand at the time of death. Your whole nonsense about conscious vs. unconcious is retarded.
@TheStarfkr Seriously what the fuck is wrong with YOU?? Have you even read the link that I directed you towards?? Cadaveric spasm is found in muscles that were CONTRACTED in life, and forms by ATP depletion in muscles that were exhausted at the time of death - freezing them into place as forensic proof of what the victim was tightly gripping at the exact moment they died. The muscles in Cobain's hand had to be flexed at the time of death, not just held in place by someone else.
???? Cadaveric spasm occurs even when there's nothing even in their hands, i.e. causing the arms to tighten and pull close to the chest. It's a symptom of a violent and fast death associated with trauma to the brain. It is not caused by any voluntary action. The fact that you continue to harp on about this even after you've been made aware that it is NOT evicence of a suicide shows that you don't really know what you are talking about and are clearly biased.
@TheStarfkr Cadaveric spasm originates from normal nervous stimulation of the muscles, in muscles that are contracted at the time of death. It occurs especially in cases of sudden death, and not always from trauma to the brain - often times trauma to the heart. You clearly don't understand the condition, and haven't read the information the I've given you.
@TheStarfkr LOL You clearly haven't been able to absorb the information on cadaveric spasm that I've given you. ATP depletion in muscles that are contracted/flexed in life, instantaneously freezing them into place at the moment of death. The condition preserves the exact attitude of the decedent at the time of death, arms/limbs do not "pull towards the chest". You continue to misunderstand how the condition occurs and what it is indicative of.
@TheStarfkr More regarding cadveric spasm, also from "Forensic Pathology Online", written by Dr. Dinesh Rao, an acting medical examiner:
"No other condition simulates cadaveric spasm and it cannot be produced by any other method after death. Very great force is required to overcome stiffness. It passes without interruption into normal rigor mortis and disappears when normal rigor disappears."
It's forensic evidence that Kurt was ALIVE and SQUEEZING the gun barrel when he was shot.
Hey, 4 cards of smudged prints off the gun isn't "no prints", and a few analysts that couldn't determine whether or not Kurt wrote some odd looking lines because they were examining a poor quality photocopy of his note isn't proof that there were "2 handwritings", especially since the actual handwritten note was forensically determined to be 100% Cobain's.
Do you realize there are multiple suicide notes? Do you realize Courtney Love claims she showed a second suicide note to the lead detective and claims he told her to burn the note? Do you realize Courtney admits to burning this second note? Do you realize this is destruction of evidence? Do you know that Courtney claimed a note Kurt left from a month earlier was a suicide note? Do you realize that even the cops say that it was just a note saying..(cont.)
...saying that Kurt wanted a divorce and said nothing about suicide? Put the pieces together. 3 notes. 1 note from a month earlier that Courtney says is a suicide note but the cops says it's just a dear john letter. The second suicide not Courtney claims the cops told her to burn it, so she did. Both of these notes indicated that so-called "official" note is not a suicide note either. (cont.)
Wrap your head around it. Take the time to fully comprehend it. Upon doing so you will se that the multiple notes indicate that the "official" sucide note wasn't a suicide note either, but just a retirement letter to Kut's fans as Nirvana was breaking up. The official suicide not was indeed altered. The last 4-5 lines were done by another hand in order to make it be a suicide note. Kurt's death is far more complex than people realize.
@TheStarfkr You're really confused by everything, unfortunately :( There were only TWO notes relevant to the Cobain Case. The first, is a 3 page note that Kurt left at the scene of his OD in Rome in early March '94. The second, is the suicide note - written in red ink on the back of an IHOP placemat, and found in the greenhouse w/ Cobain's body. The Rome Note was used as a known handwriting sample of Kurt's 2 compare against the suicide note, which was proved to be 100% Cobain's writing.
Not confusing them. After Kurt's death Courtney claimed the Rome Incident was a suicide attempt and that the Rome note was a suicide note. The cops asked Courtney for a sample of his handwriting and she gave them the Rome note and said it was a suicide note. There's a reason she did that. There are 3 relevant notes. 1.) The official "suicide note". 2.) The rome note, and 3. A secret second note that Courtney claimede she found under her pillow (continued).
That secred second note was supposedly found by Courtney after the house was searched. Courtney claims she showed this secret second note to the lead Detective who then supposedly told he to burn it. Courtney admits she burned this secret second "suicide note". This is destruction of evidence. There is a reason why the lead detective told her to burn it.
@TheStarfkr After the SPD had finished with the Rome Note, they returned it to Love, and allowed her to burn it. It was no longer "evidence" in the case, as its only purpose was to serve as a known handwriting sample of Cobain's. Love reportedly still has the Suicide Note (beginning with "To Boddah...") locked away somewhere. There were not three notes, you have clearly misunderstood the facts in this case.
No. There are 3 notes. You need to do more research. 1.) The official "suicide note" found in the greenhouse, the IHOP map one, 2.) A secret second suicide note Courtney claimes she found under her pillow. She claims she showed this to the lead detective who then allegedly told her to burn it. Courtney admits she burnt this secret second note. 3.) The Rome note. The SPD ask Courtney for a handwriting sample and she gives them the Rome Note and claims that (continued)
...the Rome incident was actually a suicide attempt. At the time everyone involved, including the doctor, said itw as just an accident. Believers in the murder theory believe it was a failed murder attempt.
So got that? 3 notes. 1.) Official "suicide note", 2. Secret second note, and 3. The Rome note.
Okay, so do some more research and you will realize there are 3 notes. Once you learn of the secret second suicide note then you shoud be able to put the pieces together and understand why Courtney was told to burn it. The Rome note and the secret second note make it clear that the "official suicide note" was not a suicide not at all, but merely a retirement letter which was altered and had the last 4-5 lines added by another hand. Take the time to digest it.
@TheStarfkr Wrong. I *guarantee* you that I have done more research about this case, and read more about Kurt Cobain and Nirvana than you (and most people) have. Just because you've read the cobaincase and justiceforkurt web sites doesn't mean that you have all the answers, nor does it mean that you're really thinking critically about the facts in this case. Courtney Love most likely lied about the mysterious "2nd note" under her pillow - no one other than her ever claims to have even seen it.
@TheStarfkr Courtney either lies about, or embellishes nearly EVERYTHING she says. Her story about finding this note "under her pillow" doesn't make sense, especially considering Grant claims her checked there earlier and found nothing. She told the Stone journalist, among other things, that Kurt told her that her album was amazing no matter what anybody says. Sounds a little self-serving, no? The "2nd note" is a figment of Love's imagination, and you fell for it.
Again, why would she lie about the existance of a note that could shed doubt on the suicide explanation? I firmly believe the note exists, but it's not a suicide note and she didn't find it where she claims. I believe she did lie and that this was merely another attempt to convince the public that Kurt was suicidal.
@TheStarfkr How would the existence of a supposed second note "shed doubt" on a the suicide verdict? And since when is Courtney Love concerned with sticking to the honest truth about anything anyway?
How would the second note shed doubt on the suicide? 1.) A total of 3 notes Courtney claims are suicide notes. 2.) The Rome Note the cops revealed was just a dear john letter. 3.) Courtney admits that the second note doesn't really talk about suicide but about him leaving her. That's why she was told to get rid of it. The 2nd note reveals the "official suicide note" is not a suicide not but a retirement letter to Kurt's fans.
@TheStarfkr LOL at the "retirement letter theory" 1) Kurt's suicide note doesn't express ANY future plans or desires at all, and instead is rather self-damning and riddled with guilt and self pity. 2) The SPD allowed Courtney to burn the Rome Note because it had already served its purpose as a known handwriting sample of Cobain's, and also because Kurt was apparently bashing her for the entire 3 page letter. It was no longer evidence in the case.
1.) Doesn't matter. Kurt made plans to go fishing withis Grandfather and made plans to do a project with R.E.M. and Courtney is even taped recordes saying that Kurt may be staying with Michael Stipe.
2.) I don't care. What completely escapes you is the "why" of it. Like why she would chose to give that to the SPD as a handwriting sample. Duh! She did it while saying it was a suicide note, yet another tactic to manipulate people and get them to believe he was suicidal.
@TheStarfkr 1)Cobain CANCELED his plans with Stipe just prior to going to rehab!! Stipe was interviewed about this: He said that he had sent Cobain a plane ticket to come out and see him, and the day before he was set to arrive, he called Stipe and canceled, without rescheduling.
2) Even the cops at the SPD said they didn't think the Rome Note sounded like a "suicide note", and the forensic analysts DON'T INTERPRET CONTENT, they just analyze the handwriting, DUH!
1.) After Kurt disappeared from rehab she told Grant that Kurt may be staying with Michael Stipe. Kurt may have passed on the ticket but that means nothing.
2.) Yet the whole point of her giving the note to the SPD as a sample of handwriting while saying it's a suicide note seems to elude you. You know what "suicide trail" is. She didn't have to give them that note.
1) Courtney was obviously just guessing about where he might be. She also said he might be with some female dope dealer that she thought he was having an affair with. Cobain never attempted to contact Stipe after cancelling his trip. That says A LOT.
2. Yet the fact that both Love and the SPD said the Rome Note was simply Kurt bashing on Courtney seems to elude you, and BOTH notes were forensically proved to be written entirely by Cobain.
1.) The fact that he died before being able to contact Stipe doesn't say a lot because if he was murdered he still wouldn't be able to contact him.
2.) The fact that Courtney did not have to provide them the Rome note and did not have to claim it was a suicide note eludes you. In your head that's normal behavior. It's called "suicide trail". She was working hard to convince people Kurt was suicidal.
1) The point remains that Kurt CANCELED his trip to see Stipe, DIDN'T reschedule, and DIDN'T attempt to contact him (or any other his friends or family for that matter) after feeling rehab, which doesn't fit with Kurt "making plans" shortly before his death.
2) Doesn't matter - the cops themselves said the note was Kurt hating on Courtney, and forensic analysts DON'T INTERPRET CONTENT, they only analyze the handwriting. Round and round in circles we go!!
Hey, no prints on the gun, no signs of being suicidal, note with 2 handwritings, a bitch ex wife with tons of motive (kurt was gonna divorcer her and she signed a prenup), too much heroin in his system to pick up the gun. Murder.
WHY would he have killed himself? hes was the head of a kick-ass group. besides, how did he wipe the prints. and, its hard to put a shotgun at your head and pull the trigger
there was a man who had drank so much alcohol that 53% of his bodily fluids was alcahol, he drove himself to the ER, gave the women his name, and then died. Most people will die before consuming enough alcohol to have 30%. My point is that certain medical anamolies exist, Kurt could of gotten that much heroin him himself, maybe attempting suicide that way first. And all the evedince that there is is cercumstantial. IF Kurt was killed, the person who did it will never be brought to justice.
Cameron retired early under allegations of stealing cash from crime scenes. He was never accused of taking bribes. No evidence exists of anyone who investigated Cobain's death having ever been paid off by anyone. It is unfortunate that Cameron had a history of having "sticky fingers", but that doesn't prove that he was paid off. There was no way that Courtney could've known who would be sent to investigate Kurt's death in the first place, so the "bribery" theory simply doesn't hold water.
Fact: the cops declared the case a suicide within a half hour of arriving on the scene without even looking at a lot of the evidence. That should be a red flag there. Either completely negligent or corrupt. Reopen the investigation.
This "family" of Kurt's, you mean Courtney? The one who cheated on him? Physically and verbally abused him? You mean that family? The one he was divorcing and cutting out of his will? You really think he would defend her? And that's leaving the little thing about his murder out of it.
@judyleasugar97 now you are truely insane and making stuff up. Kurt was verry close to his mother. He spoke with and visited her often. Now you are just being a liar and hypocrite. Please stop talking like you personally know kurt and his life. YOu know nothing about his behavior, feelings, and opinions, if you belive that he wasnt close with his mom. GIVE IT UP.
"...This condition is of great medico-legal importance. Occasionally, in case of suicide, the weapon, e.g. pistol or knife is seen firmly grasped in the victim's hand which is a strong presumptive evidence of suicide. Attempts may be made to simulate this condition in order to conceal the murder, but ordinary rigor does not produce the same firm grip of a weapon..." Both quotes taken from Forensic Pathology Online, by Dr. Dinesh Rao. Link available by PM upon request.
"Cadaveric spasm is a rare condition. In this, the muscles that were contracted in life become stiff and rigid immediately after death without passing into the stage of primary relaxation. As such, the change preserves the exact attitude of the person at the time of death for several hours afterward...No other condition simulates cadaveric spasm and it cannot be produced by any other method after death. Very great force is required to overcome stiffness...
if u put a shotgun to ur head it will be hard to pull the trigger, and IF u manage to do it the shotgun would be atleast 4 or 5 feet away cuz the recoil , they found kurts body with a shotgun IN his hands so that bittch DID kill him . . .
@98mccracken Consider this quote by Nikolas Hartshorne, the coroner who examined Cobain's body:
"With gun suicides, you always still see the victim holding the barrel of the gun. That's because at the point of death, the hand freezes in place. We literally had to pry that shotgun from Cobain's hands. You could still see the markings in his palms from where he had been gripping it for days. That's a sure sign the wound was self inflicted. That kind of evidence doesn't lie." -from 'Love and Death'
@98mccracken The phenomenon that Hartshorne is describing in Cobain's hand is called cadaveric spasm, aka: instantaneous rigor; cataleptic rigidity. Are you familiar with the medico-legal implications of said phenomenon, and its significance in determining homicide or suicide in forensic investigations? I wasn't, until I researched it on the handy-dandy internet. I can PM a few on-line forensic pathology sites to view for more info, if you're curious. If not, no biggie.
Kurt was going to divorce Courtney for adultery and she had signed a prenup, that means no money, what she cares about most. Courtney tried to hire a local musician to kill him (2 witnesses) and she tried to murder her first husband as well, set the bed on fire while he slept. She is a psychopath, watch "Deadly Women" there are many female killers on the show like Courtney.
@judyleasugar97 Anyone who has ever watch the doc Kurt and Courtney by Bloomfield knows that Judy is a total fucking idiot to claim Courtney hired a local musician in la to kill kurt. Those people who judy mentions are drunks/drug addicts who were laughed at by anyone whose known them. Even the guy who investigated judys claim thinks those people who claimed to have been hired by courtney are total idiots.
@judyleasugar97 The real question should be why judy wastes her time posting lies, and rumors. Judy are you incapable of acknowledging the facts? Judy are you that mentally ill that you have nothing better to do that to constantly write about kurts death? Judy believes that courtney tried to kill kurt in rome by spiking his drinks and then she claims that kurt was clean in 94 ( while kurts close friends/family say the opposite) then she claims courtney bribes the police,d,a,, and corner.
@judyleasugar97 edinammar is sick and tired on reading your nonstop posts and comments about your paranoid theories. I am here to prove to everyone you post to that you are crazy,mentally ill, and that your theories rely on 3rd rate people,rumors, and lies. NOthing you say is based on logic. You theories rely on a weak Kurt, who is uncapable of speaking and thinking for himself and courtney bribing the police,d,a, and corner. U also think kurt was clean in 94 which is unfactual.
@EdinAmmar: I'm sick and tired of hearing the insulting things Courtney says about Kurt. I'm sick of hearing about the crap she pulls to get away with murder. Fuck her, I hope she burns in hell.
@judyleasugar97 i'm sick of hearing you constantly making Kurt out to be weak and naive. I am sick of you saying that Kurt didnt stick up and speak for himself. I am sick of you posting that Kurt was uncapable of making his own choices. No one made Kurt do anything he didnt want to do. I am sick of you making kurt out to be a person that he isn't. Kurt would spit on your face and tell you to leave him and his family alone if he were alive. Please re read the liner notes of insecticide.
@judyleasugar97 kurt would most def spit on your face and tell you to leave him and his family alone. You are the one making kurt out to be a weak, naive, gulible person. You make kurt out to be a person who was incapable of speaking for himself or making any choices on his own. Kurt would hate you for making assumptions on him that are from from his real character. Kurt was vocal, opinionated, and never did anything he didnt want to do.
@judyleasugar97 your theory that Courtney tried to kil kurt in rome is proof that you are making Kurt out to be a person he wasnt. If Courtney ever tried to kill Kurt by spiking his drinks Kurt would be the first person to speak up and do something about it. I give Kurt, respect, and treat him like the strong, opinionaed, willful person that he was. Unlike you i dont have theories that rely on kurt being a submissive, weak, confused person. ON BEHALF OF KURT, I SPIT ON YOUR FACE.
@judyleasugar97 yes i know what rohypnol is but even a person who was given that drug unknowingly, will wake up and realize that someone spiked there drink. In the case of kurt, kurt would have woken up in a hosptial and would have been told about all those pills in his system and that he almost died. Kurt is smart enough to know that if he didnt take those pills someone must have spiked his drink and tried to kill him. If that were the case kurt would have said and did something about it.
@judyleasugar97 he didnt have to remember anything to put the facts together. If kurt never took the rohypnol and courtney tried to kill him this is would he would have known when we woke up. He would have awoken in a hospital and found out that large amounts of rohypnol was in his system and that he almost died. Kurt would have known that he didnt take any drugs and that the only way a large amount of the drug got in his system was by spiking his drink in the hotel.
@judyleasugar97 judy who are you to make character judgements about kurt? who are you to say that kurt wouldnt have said or did anything if Courtney tried to kill him in rome? All you are doing is making up excuses to support your paranoid, schitzo, mentally ill theories. The more and more you talk about kurt the less attached you are to reasoning and logic. GET HELP.
@judyleasugar97 what dont you understand? You are a sick,paranoid person. You talk about kurt like you know his personal thoughts and feelings. You characterize kurt as a weak,confused, naive person. You make up lies inorder to believe your paranoid theories. I have expalined in logic that kurt used drugs in 94, I've also explain how crazy yer theory that Courtney tried to kill kurt in rome is. I've also told you how crazy your bribery theory of the police,d,a,. and corner is. What dont u get?
@judyleasugar97 in yer crazy, paranoid mind you might have disproven what i've said but in the real world where logic and reasoning decides what is true or flase you've proven nothing besides your mental illness. YOu think others on youtube are conspiring against you by forming fake accounts. You have not given any logical reason to prove how courtney would knkow which lead dective, d,a, or corner to bribe in advance of kurts death.
@judyleasugar97 NO listen up you mentally ill schitzo. For your bribery theory to be true courtney would have to know in advance which out of the many lead dectivies would be assigned to kurts case. that's impossible to figure out. That same thing would have to happen with the district attorney and the corner. Courtney would have to know in advance which corner and da would be assigned to kurts case in order to bribe them
@judyleasugar97 if you had any comprehension skills you'd know that i've repeatedly said that the police every major city in the usa has bad cops and corruption but that doesnt mean that every case they've investigated or evidence they've collected is flawed.
@judyleasugar97 you are insane and paranoid. The cops had no reason when they were investigating kurts death to say it was murder or suicide. They gathered the evidence, had a corner look at the body and came to a logical conculsion. Again with sucides all the pieces dont always fit and with a high profile case there are mistakes but the preponderance of the evidence stays the same. I've been arrested with felonies over 6x in my life. i know alot about cops and the justice system.
@judyleasugar97 i know your previoius comments and you are saying that the cops were corrupt, and that courtney bribed the police. I'm telling you that yer bribery theories are insane cause courtney would have no clue which lead dectivie would be assigned to kurts case. As for corruption. There is corruption in every police department in every major city but that doesn mean the evidence collected and the corner's report aren't factual. The preponderance of the evidence shows suicide.
Does Courtney still have Kurt's ashes? Cause in the last interview I seen of her in the mid 99s on you tube she had locks if Kurt's hair and his ashes with incenses and candles lit on the table 0.0
Knowing her stupid ass she probably gave his ashes to charity like she did to all his stuff that he owned I'm sry Courtney I do love you and Kurt very very much! But sometimes I think this bitch is full of bs I think she was jealous of Kurt!
caliemogirl91 4 days ago
@caliemogirl91 Kurt's ashes were reportedly distributed in 2 or 3 different locations -- in Olympia, with some of his family present, and also into the Wishkah River, near where he grew up. Love once claimed that Kurt's ashes were stolen from her, but that story proved to be false. Courtney has a bad habit of making shit up, exaggerating things, and generally being a drama queen. It's unfortunate, because it makes people doubt her, and makes them believe these conspiracy theories.
TestMeatDollSteak 4 days ago
Where's the "proof" the coroner was corrupt??? There is none. He had no reason to lie, and jeopardize his career. If he wanted to deceive the public, he could've simply denied the morphine level. He didn't. Two other medical examiners viewed Cobain's body at the scene. You'd have to believe this is a cover up conspiracy that goes from the SPD to the King's County Medical Examiner's Office. And based on what? The fact that Hartshorne booked bands in the late 80's/early 90's?? LOL.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 weeks ago
There's no proof of cadaveric because the body's gone and Courtney's hiding the autopsy report, capiche? Where's the fucking proof? Because some corrupt coroner said so? Haha.
x0PUNKER0X 1 month ago
Read Ian Halperin's "Love&Death", read all of Tom Grant's stuff -- these are the main sources of the conspiracy theories, and not even these people are stupid enough to assert that Hartshorne lied about anything. Cadaveric spasm not only proves that the gunshot killed Cobain (and not the heroin), it's forensic evidence that the muscles in Kurt's hand were contracted and tightly gripping the gun barrel at the exact moment the weapon was discharged.
TestMeatDollSteak 1 month ago
Oh, Hartshorne didn't lie about the cadaveric thing because he didn't lie about the morphine? You have to lie about everything or you haven't lied? What kind of logic is that? There are stupid people, all right. People who think Courtney is innocent.
x0PUNKER0X 1 month ago
Your theory makes absolutely no fucking sense. If his intention were to mislead the public, why not simply deny a morphine level that was unofficially leaked in the first place? If there were really no cadaveric spasm, there wouldn't be any mention of the condition in the autopsy reports, and Hartshorne would be just as at risk of exposure as if he had denied the morphine level. I'll bet that if video footage of Kurt killing himself surfaced, you'd say Courtney Love faked the tape.
TestMeatDollSteak 1 month ago
Who gives a shit what "most" people think?? Most people are fucking stupid, and willing to believe just about anything. Be a sheep, for all I care. Otherwise, think for yourself and form your own opinions.
If Hartshorne was going to "lie" about the autopsy reports, why wouldn't he simply deny the unofficially leaked morphine level?? The only reason you think he "lied" is because you want to deny the implications of the condition that the medical examiners diagnosed in Kurt's left hand.
TestMeatDollSteak 1 month ago
If there's no body to examine and no autopsy report to look at, Hartshorne could lie about it. Duh.
And most Nirvana fans now think Kurt was murdered.
x0PUNKER0X 1 month ago
Why should she have to? The authorities aren't charging her with any crimes, and there is nearly zero support for these murder theories from Cobain's next of kin. None of that changes the fact that Hartshorne couldn't "lie" about the condition of Kurt's body. If he were going to lie, he could have simply denied the leaked morphine level. Not even the writers of "Love&Death", or Tom Grant, are willing to insinuate that Hartshorne "made up" anything.
TestMeatDollSteak 1 month ago
And yet CL won't let anyone see the autopsy report. Curious.
x0PUNKER0X 1 month ago
He couldn't -- and didn't -- "make up things" for the same reason that he couldn't deny the reported morphine level: the autopsy reports would dispute him, and so would the 2 other King's County medical examiners that viewed Kurt's body in the greenhouse.
TestMeatDollSteak 1 month ago
Cobain's body is gone and Courtney Love won't show the autopsy report. Of course Hartshorne could make up things.
x0PUNKER0X 1 month ago
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What proof is there that the King's County medical examiner's office was "corrupt or negligent" in Cobain's case?? Wait, lemme guess, you're going to bring up the allegations against Sgt Cameron, who retired early because he was accused of stealing cash from crime scenes. That's neat, but where's the evidence linking anyone involved in Kurt's case to a payoff?? There is none. People like you would rather believe something that has no evidence than look at the facts.
TestMeatDollSteak 1 month ago
Who says a medical examiner can't be corrupt or negligent? Apparently Seattle spd was.
x0PUNKER0X 1 month ago
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TestMeatDollSteak 1 month ago
Hartshorne was being asked questions he couldn't answer, so he made up cadaveric spasm. He never said anything about it before that.
x0PUNKER0X 1 month ago
@x0PUNKER0X Interesting, I thought I was talking to "99percentinLA". Oh well, guess you'll do. The medical examiner could not "make up" anything about Cobain's autopsy reports, for the same reason that he couldn't (and didn't) deny the leaked morphine level -- the autopsy reports would dispute him if he lied. Cadaveric spasm and regular rigor were used to determined both cause of death and approximate time of death, and would be part of the medical examiner's record.
TestMeatDollSteak 1 month ago
@99percentinLA The fact that Cobain's hand was locked in a cadaveric spasm around the gun barrel comes from Nikolas Hartshorne, the medical examiner that performed Cobain's autopsy. Are you saying that Hartshorne was not a medical expert??
TestMeatDollSteak 1 month ago
Kurts body is no longer available for examination, thus all these wild claimslike cadaveric spasm (made by people who are not medical experts) that ultimately prove nothing.
99percenterinLA 1 month ago
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There is no evidence of cadaveric spasm in the case of Kurt's death, and it doesn't explain a lot of other problems with the crime scene, like the bullet shell landing the opposite way the gun barrel was pointing, an indication the gun was moved after being fired.
profaneoneohone 2 months ago
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profaneoneohone 2 months ago
No one can aim a gun with that much heroin in them.
poohpoohbox2 2 months ago
@poohpoohbox2 Cadaveric spasm in Kurt's left hand around the barrel of the gun means that the muscles in Kurt's hand had to be contracted/flexed at the time of death, not simply "held in place" by someone. It's sound forensic evidence that Cobain was alive and willfully squeezing that shotgun barrel with the muzzle in his mouth, and the barrel against his chest - exactly what you'd expect to find in a suicide - at the exact moment the gun was discharged.
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
@poohpoohbox2
Yes, that is the biggest flaw in the suicide theory. It's easy for people who have never seen a person on heroin to think that they can do all the things Kurt needed to do after injecting himself.
TheStarfkr 2 months ago
Beyond that, the SPD had the handwritten suicide note to examine, and they also had the letter that Kurt left at the scene of his OD in Rome a month earlier to compare the suicide note against. A Washington State forensic document analyst concluded the entire suicide note was penned by Cobain. All of the other opinions on the note you hear about were inconclusive and were based off of bad 2nd generation photocopies of the note, not the handwritten copy.
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
One of the coroners who viewed Cobain's body and performed his autopsy, Dr. Harthsorne:
"With gun suicides, you always still see the victim gripping the barrel of the gun. That's because at the point of death, the hand freezes in place. We literally had to pry that shotgun from Cobain's hands. You could still see the markings in his palms from where he had been gripping it for days. That's a sure sign the wound was self inflicted. That kind of evidence doesn't lie."
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
Haven't we all been depressed and even thought about suicide at points in life? This doesn't prove he killed himself, particularly with all that heroin in him and Courtney with a motive for murder.
do2it2the2gerard2way 2 months ago
For those who don't know, believers in the murder theory believe there were 3 attempts on Kurt's life.
1.) May 2, 1993
2.) March 2-3, 1994
3.) April 5, 1994 (where Kurt died)
The first attempt was covered up by the police who blacked out the police report. The only thing that was supposed to be blacked out is names and address, not entire paragraphs. An informant revealed that in the blacked out portion Courtney gave a cocktail of drugs to Kurt against his will while he was unconscious
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr There's no legitimate evidence that any attempts were ever made on Cobain's life by anyone. Watch the Foo Fighters doc "Back and Forth" - Dave Grohl says that he talked to Kurt over the phone after he returned home from the OD in Rome. Kurt told Dave that he was drinking champagne and taking pills, apologized to him, and said it was "a mistake". Kurt took responsibility for the OD. The "1st attempt" you mention is pure conspiracy conjecture.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
The police record for May 2, 1993 exists and has a considerable portion blacked out. As far as the Rome Incident goes, the rohypnol was in Courtney's name. Rohypnol causes memory loss. Kurt stated several times he was not quite sure what happened. Just because he took the blame doesn't mean he actually remembered. Also, there are discrepencies in the timeline of when Courteny discovered Kurt & when she called the ambulance. In the 1st version she waited 2hrs.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
You need to research the case. Very strange thing. Other discreprencies about the Rome Incident, other than how long Courtney waited before calling the ambulance are 1.) Who called the media as they were there to film it, 2.) How was Kurt found, Courtney has given several different versions, one with Kurt having money in one hand and a note telling her he's leaving her in the other hand, 3.) why Courtney went against the dr's reccommendations and moved a comatose Kurt.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr I've read all the same conspiracy stuff that you have: cobaincase, justiceforkurt, the "Love&Death" book. Your arguments about Rome being a supposed "murder attempt" are all based on conjecture and gossip. Kurt called Dave after his OD in Rome and told Dave that he took the pills and drank the champagne. If he was supposedly the victim of a "murder attempt", why was he accepting responsibility for the overdose?? Too much gray area here, no evidence of foul play.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
I've already gone over this. Rohypnal caused memory loss. Just because Kurt accepted blame doesn't mean that's what actually happened or that Kurt even remembered it. Kurt made several statements that he didn't remember what happened that night.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr If Kurt really didn't remember what had happened, then why was he accepting the blame to Dave?? Why not just tell Dave that he didn't remember, and blame the drugs for his memory loss?? Instead, he tells Dave he was "taking these pills and drinking champagne" and apologizes to him. That's from the mouth of this supposed memory loss victim.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
That's an unreasonable question. Why did Kurt take the blame? Who knows. Taking the blame doesn't mean he remembers it or that he was actually responsible.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr Exactly - you DON'T know why Kurt accepted the blame for the overdose in Rome, so it's at least possible that he accepted the blame because he DID remember what happened and he knew he was to blame for his own actions. There's no evidence or proof that Rome was an attempt on Kurt's life.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
And you don't know why either. I'm not going to put myself in Kurt's head and try to speak for him and I don't want to see you trying to speak for Kurt so drop it.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr Of course I don't know why Kurt admitted to Dave that he took the pills and drank the champagne, NOBODY does because we weren't there, that's the whole point. There are more questions than answers. The burden of proof is on the people claiming that Kurt was murdered, and so far, there isn't any evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Duh.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
You do realize that like in a Grand Jury they are not required to prove beyond reasonable doubt only probable cause. That's the best case scenario here, that public pressure can make the SPD reopen the case, as it was never properly investigated, and a grand jury could possibly be formed.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr You do realize that a grand jury doesn't rule in favor of guilt or innocence, and that a trial would still have to occur, where Love's guilt would still have to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, don't you??
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Uh, duh! A grand jury's conviction is then used to begin prosecution. Nice trying to repeat what I've alreay written and than act like you somehow know more about it than I.
TheStarfkr 2 months ago
@TheStarfkr Grand juries DO NOT CONVICT OR EXONERATE PEOPLE. They can only rule that charges can be brought, in which case a trial still has to occur! You act like a grand jury could convict Love, which shows that you don't understand what the function of a grand jury is.
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Duh! Preaching to he choir! You act like I don't know this stuff, you are quite wrong. A grand jury conviction would pave the way for the prosecution. You keep feeding me back the things I have told you and then you act like I'm the ignorant one.
TheStarfkr 2 months ago
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TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
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@TheStarfkr And yet you continue to use the word "conviction" in conjuncture with a grand jury's ruling in favor of prosecution. They can only rule on account of there being sufficient evidence for prosecution, that is not a ruling on the guilt or innocence of the accused. If you understand the concept, then use the appropriate terminology.
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
About the second secret suicide note...
I believe Courtney told the truth by accidentally slipping up in the interview. Except that I don't believe it was a suicide note nor do I believe she found it when she claims to have found it. I believe that is was most likely another note Kurt left her telling her their marriage is over. And I believe this is why she was told to get rid of it because if the public were to find out then it would cast doubt on the suicide theory.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr Courtney claimed she found the "2nd note" under her pillow. Grant was shocked and questioned her about this because he had tossed the couple's bed for signs of Kurt's presence/drug paraphernalia just before Kurt's body was discovered, and found nothing, let alone a note under her pillow. There's no evidence that this note ever existed, and Love had never mentioned it before that interview, conducted 7-8 months after Kurt's death. Love didn't "slip up", she made it up.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
It was yet another attempt to convince the public that Kurt was suicidal. This is a common tactic and there is an official term for it but I can't recall it offhand. When a murder is committed and it is staged as a suicide the guilty parties will invent a suicidal history as part of the deception. I firmly believe Courtney had a note, just that it wasn't a suicide note and she didn't find it under her pillow.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr If you don't believe the part where Courtney says she found this supposed note under her pillow, then why do you believe that the thing actually exists at all?? The entire story was obviously made up, as an attempt to make the people reading the interview believe that Kurt wanted her to know how great her (Hole's) album is and that he's really sorry he left everyone behind. It was a self-serving fabricated story to boost public opinion of her and her band, not a "suicide trail".
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Why do I believe it? Because it was yet one of many of the things Courtney did to convince the public that Kurt was suicidal. The note was most likely just another note where Kurt was telling her the marriage was over and this is the reason why she was told to get rid of it because people would start to doubt the "official suicide note". Use your brain. SPD asks her for a smaple of handwriting and she gives them the Rome note while claiming it's a suicide note. Duh.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr Use YOUR brain, dummy!! You don't believe a single word that Love says about ANYTHING, but you believe that this "2nd note" existed, even considering NO ONE other than her claims to have ever seen it?? And Tom Grant says it definitely couldn't have been where she claims she found it?? It doesn't matter whether or not she claimed the Rome Note was a suicide note - the forensic analysts examine the penmanship, they don't interpret the content, DUH, and the entire note was 100% Kurt's.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Don't call me a dummy when you are the dense one. You know what the term 'suicide trail' means yet you can't seem to understand that's what Courtney was doing. 1.) Courtney claims the Rome Note was a suicide note and gives it to the SPD as an example of Kurt's handwriting. It's called 'suicide trail". 2.) Courtney claims she found a second suicide not = Suicide trail. 3.) Courtney claims Kurt brought a gun into the hospital room = suicide trail, I can go on and on here.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr LOL What truly amazes me is how you can be SO skeptical of the official ruling, but also refuse to turn that same skepticism onto Grant's "evidence" and question the murder theory, which is exactly what I'm doing. Kurt also told a journalist that he and Courtney contemplated suicide after Frances was born. Kurt himself often talked of being depressed and wanting to kill himself. Courtney's version of things is typical of her: drama, embellishments and lies.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
What Azerrad? Please. Kurt talked about how his stomach pains make him question suicide and that was cleared up when he was properly diagnoses has having scoleosis.
Courtney was laying down a suicide trail to convince the public Kurt was suicidal. This behavior is associated with murders staged to appear as suicides. It is now well known but at that time in 1994 it was not well known.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr Kurt talked about being depressed and suicidal at different points in his life to several different journalists. He talked about being depressed and suicidal in high school, and later on because of his stomach problems, and later because of his drug addiction and the press hounding him and his band over it. Kurt went to rehab and then fled rehab. Courtney didn't have to "convince" the public of Kurt's instability and history of making suicidal threats, Kurt did it himself
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
No matter how many times I post things from people who actually knew Kurt saying he wasn't suicidal. No matter what quotes I post saying how Kurt was making plans and was at a happy time in his life, debunkers like you do not care and the truth goes right over your head because you aren't even looking for truth. People who are suicidal usually don't make plans for future activities nor do they usually want to go through divorces.
TheStarfkr 2 months ago
@TheStarfkr The only examples of "plans" that murder theory believers can point to are a fishing trip with his grandpa and his recording session with Stipe. Kurt CANCELED the trip with Stipe just before going to rehab and never said ANYTHING to him about rescheduling! No matter how many of Kurt's friends/family (Novoselic, Grohl, Wendy O'Connor, Dylan Carlson, Don Cobain) say that Kurt killed himself, people like you continue to ignore them and instead believe in this conspiracy!!
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
One more time..Kurt made plans to go through with a divorce with Courtney, including excluding her from his will. Kurt made plans to go fishing with is grandfather. Kurt's last message he left with Courtney, something she kept secret and didn't tell the police, was "Elizabeth's phone number is ......". Meaning he may have had plans with her. She is believed to be a painter. Kurt may have cancelled the flight but he didn't cancel the project.
TheStarfkr 2 months ago
@TheStarfkr For whatever reason, Kurt decided not to actually file for divorce. Read Everett True's book, he interviewed Rosemary Carroll for it. Even she says she wasn't sure how serious Kurt was about actually going through w/ the divorce. Fishing plans with grandpa mean squat, Kurt could have simply been paying him lip service. Your thoughts on Elizabeth are just conjecture, and Kurt offered Stipe no thoughts on wanting to re-schedule the session.
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
People have been *wrongfully* convicted on circumstantial evidence as well. I'd like to see an independent re-examination of the full autopsy reports and the *handwritten* suicide note. 'Til then, I still see plenty of room for debate both ways.
TestMeatDollSteak 7 months ago
People have been convicted on less. Throw the bitch in jail.
poohpoohbox2 7 months ago
@poohpoohbox2: I agree, throw the bitch in jail.
dangerdaysalice 7 months ago
And hey, proving his widow (not ex-wife, they were married when he died) is a bitch and that she had a possible motive might be reason to be suspicious, but it doesn't prove that a crime was committed, especially considering the medical examiners at the scene had forensically sound reason to believe that Cobain was indeed tightly gripping the gun against his chest when the shot killed him, as evidenced by their diagnosis of instantaneous rigor in Kurt's left hand around the gun barrel.
TestMeatDollSteak 8 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Dr. Hartshorne, the guy who did the autopsey, was Courtney's friend since the 1980s. They had regular dinner dates and were seen in public until his death in 2002. I would think it would be a conflice of interest, but he apparantly did not.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr Hartshorne booked gigs for Seattle area bands, he knew A LOT of the musicians in Washington at the time, including Kurt and Nirvana, as well as Courtney and Hole. Hartshorne was also only ONE of THREE King's County Medical Examiners that arrived on the scene that day to examine Kurt's body, and they all had to come to a consensus before a verdict was reached.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Dr. Hartshorne was the only one to have made the rounds on t.v. and in documentaries claiming it was in his words, "a classic suicide". Just how "classic" is injecting yourself with 3 x the lethal dose of heroin and then eating a bullet? At no time did Dr. Hartshorne ever reveal his long-term friendship with Courtney.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr Hartshorne was specifically targeted for questioning BECAUSE it was pointed out that he booked bands and had a *possible* conflict of interest because of it. The coroners that viewed Kurt's body at the scene diagnosed a cadaveric spasm of Cobain's left hand around the barrel of the shotgun. The condition is an instantaneous freezing into place of certain muscles (usually the hands) that are contracted in the victim's last act of life - it means Kurt was squeezing the gun when he died
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Look it up. The same scenario can be replicated by a vaireity of means. For example, if a gun is placed in positing prior to rigor mortis an almost identical scenario is created. What you are failing to understand is that is all interpretation and not solid facts.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr Your statements about cadaveric spasm are incorrect. From "Forensic Pathology Online", regarding cadaveric spasm:
"This condition is of great medico-legal importance. Occasionally, in case of suicide, the weapon, e.g. pistol or knife, is seen firmly grasped in the victim's hand which is a strong presumptive evidence of suicide. Attempts may be made to simulate this condition to conceal a murder, but ordinary rigor does not produce the same firm grip of a weapon."
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
I just went over the police records. Kurt's finger was not found on the trigger, thus this is moot and has no bearance on the case. Where did you say you learned that Dr. Hartshornes said this was the case?
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr You wouldn't expect his finger to be found on the trigger - you'd expect the weapon to be found in his hand. His left hand was frozen in a death grip around the barrel of the gun. From Hartshorne:
"With suicide, you always still find the victim gripping the barrel of the gun. That's because at the point of death, the hand freezes in place. We literally had to pry that shotgun from Cobain's hand. You could still the markings in his palms from where he had been gripping it for days."
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Look at the police records. His left hand was NOT frozen in a death grip. It just lists the left hand was wrapped around the barral and this can be accomplished via staging the scene prior to rigor mortis.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr The police reports confirm that Cobain's left hand was wrapped around the barrel of the gun. They also mention that there were markings in his hands consistent with firing the weapon. Hartshorne is on record saying that they "literally had to pry that shotgun from Cobain's hand". Are you suggesting that Hartshorne lied about the condition?? Regular rigor mortis does NOT produce the same firm grip of an object.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
WTF is wrong with you? I've already given you a link about how this does not prove suicide and that it can and does appear in homicides. It is caused by the sudden release of chemicals in the brain and can be replicated like in a murder staged to appear as a suicide.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr WTF is wrong with YOU?? I've already TOLD you that cadaveric spasm occurs in both homicides and suicides, and IS NEVER DESCRIBED AS OCCURRING IN UNCONSCIOUS VICTIMS. Whether murder or suicide, the condition occurs in victims that were PHYSICALLY or EMOTIONALLY STRUGGLING just prior to death. Show me one more case of cadaveric spasm being diagnosed in a victim that was thought to be unconscious at the time of death.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
You are being extremely ridiculous. Serioulsy, WTF is wrong with you? Cadaveric spasm is not caused by muscle exercise. It is caused by the last mad dash of brain signals and chemicals at death. If Cadaveric spasms were found in Kurt's hand that is not proof that he shot a gun, merely that the gun was in his hand at the time of death. Your whole nonsense about conscious vs. unconcious is retarded.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr Seriously what the fuck is wrong with YOU?? Have you even read the link that I directed you towards?? Cadaveric spasm is found in muscles that were CONTRACTED in life, and forms by ATP depletion in muscles that were exhausted at the time of death - freezing them into place as forensic proof of what the victim was tightly gripping at the exact moment they died. The muscles in Cobain's hand had to be flexed at the time of death, not just held in place by someone else.
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
???? Cadaveric spasm occurs even when there's nothing even in their hands, i.e. causing the arms to tighten and pull close to the chest. It's a symptom of a violent and fast death associated with trauma to the brain. It is not caused by any voluntary action. The fact that you continue to harp on about this even after you've been made aware that it is NOT evicence of a suicide shows that you don't really know what you are talking about and are clearly biased.
TheStarfkr 2 months ago
@TheStarfkr Cadaveric spasm originates from normal nervous stimulation of the muscles, in muscles that are contracted at the time of death. It occurs especially in cases of sudden death, and not always from trauma to the brain - often times trauma to the heart. You clearly don't understand the condition, and haven't read the information the I've given you.
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
You clearly haven't been able to comprehend that the condition does not prove suicide.
TheStarfkr 2 months ago
@TheStarfkr LOL You clearly haven't been able to absorb the information on cadaveric spasm that I've given you. ATP depletion in muscles that are contracted/flexed in life, instantaneously freezing them into place at the moment of death. The condition preserves the exact attitude of the decedent at the time of death, arms/limbs do not "pull towards the chest". You continue to misunderstand how the condition occurs and what it is indicative of.
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheStarfkr More regarding cadveric spasm, also from "Forensic Pathology Online", written by Dr. Dinesh Rao, an acting medical examiner:
"No other condition simulates cadaveric spasm and it cannot be produced by any other method after death. Very great force is required to overcome stiffness. It passes without interruption into normal rigor mortis and disappears when normal rigor disappears."
It's forensic evidence that Kurt was ALIVE and SQUEEZING the gun barrel when he was shot.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
Hey, 4 cards of smudged prints off the gun isn't "no prints", and a few analysts that couldn't determine whether or not Kurt wrote some odd looking lines because they were examining a poor quality photocopy of his note isn't proof that there were "2 handwritings", especially since the actual handwritten note was forensically determined to be 100% Cobain's.
TestMeatDollSteak 8 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Do you realize there are multiple suicide notes? Do you realize Courtney Love claims she showed a second suicide note to the lead detective and claims he told her to burn the note? Do you realize Courtney admits to burning this second note? Do you realize this is destruction of evidence? Do you know that Courtney claimed a note Kurt left from a month earlier was a suicide note? Do you realize that even the cops say that it was just a note saying..(cont.)
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
Comment removed
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
(continued)
...saying that Kurt wanted a divorce and said nothing about suicide? Put the pieces together. 3 notes. 1 note from a month earlier that Courtney says is a suicide note but the cops says it's just a dear john letter. The second suicide not Courtney claims the cops told her to burn it, so she did. Both of these notes indicated that so-called "official" note is not a suicide note either. (cont.)
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
(continued)
Wrap your head around it. Take the time to fully comprehend it. Upon doing so you will se that the multiple notes indicate that the "official" sucide note wasn't a suicide note either, but just a retirement letter to Kut's fans as Nirvana was breaking up. The official suicide not was indeed altered. The last 4-5 lines were done by another hand in order to make it be a suicide note. Kurt's death is far more complex than people realize.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr You're really confused by everything, unfortunately :( There were only TWO notes relevant to the Cobain Case. The first, is a 3 page note that Kurt left at the scene of his OD in Rome in early March '94. The second, is the suicide note - written in red ink on the back of an IHOP placemat, and found in the greenhouse w/ Cobain's body. The Rome Note was used as a known handwriting sample of Kurt's 2 compare against the suicide note, which was proved to be 100% Cobain's writing.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Not confusing them. After Kurt's death Courtney claimed the Rome Incident was a suicide attempt and that the Rome note was a suicide note. The cops asked Courtney for a sample of his handwriting and she gave them the Rome note and said it was a suicide note. There's a reason she did that. There are 3 relevant notes. 1.) The official "suicide note". 2.) The rome note, and 3. A secret second note that Courtney claimede she found under her pillow (continued).
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
(continued)
That secred second note was supposedly found by Courtney after the house was searched. Courtney claims she showed this secret second note to the lead Detective who then supposedly told he to burn it. Courtney admits she burned this secret second "suicide note". This is destruction of evidence. There is a reason why the lead detective told her to burn it.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr After the SPD had finished with the Rome Note, they returned it to Love, and allowed her to burn it. It was no longer "evidence" in the case, as its only purpose was to serve as a known handwriting sample of Cobain's. Love reportedly still has the Suicide Note (beginning with "To Boddah...") locked away somewhere. There were not three notes, you have clearly misunderstood the facts in this case.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
No. There are 3 notes. You need to do more research. 1.) The official "suicide note" found in the greenhouse, the IHOP map one, 2.) A secret second suicide note Courtney claimes she found under her pillow. She claims she showed this to the lead detective who then allegedly told her to burn it. Courtney admits she burnt this secret second note. 3.) The Rome note. The SPD ask Courtney for a handwriting sample and she gives them the Rome Note and claims that (continued)
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
(continued)
...the Rome incident was actually a suicide attempt. At the time everyone involved, including the doctor, said itw as just an accident. Believers in the murder theory believe it was a failed murder attempt.
So got that? 3 notes. 1.) Official "suicide note", 2. Secret second note, and 3. The Rome note.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Okay, so do some more research and you will realize there are 3 notes. Once you learn of the secret second suicide note then you shoud be able to put the pieces together and understand why Courtney was told to burn it. The Rome note and the secret second note make it clear that the "official suicide note" was not a suicide not at all, but merely a retirement letter which was altered and had the last 4-5 lines added by another hand. Take the time to digest it.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr Wrong. I *guarantee* you that I have done more research about this case, and read more about Kurt Cobain and Nirvana than you (and most people) have. Just because you've read the cobaincase and justiceforkurt web sites doesn't mean that you have all the answers, nor does it mean that you're really thinking critically about the facts in this case. Courtney Love most likely lied about the mysterious "2nd note" under her pillow - no one other than her ever claims to have even seen it.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Why would Courtney lie about finding a second note when it's existance may cast doubt on the suicide theory?
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr Courtney either lies about, or embellishes nearly EVERYTHING she says. Her story about finding this note "under her pillow" doesn't make sense, especially considering Grant claims her checked there earlier and found nothing. She told the Stone journalist, among other things, that Kurt told her that her album was amazing no matter what anybody says. Sounds a little self-serving, no? The "2nd note" is a figment of Love's imagination, and you fell for it.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
Again, why would she lie about the existance of a note that could shed doubt on the suicide explanation? I firmly believe the note exists, but it's not a suicide note and she didn't find it where she claims. I believe she did lie and that this was merely another attempt to convince the public that Kurt was suicidal.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr How would the existence of a supposed second note "shed doubt" on a the suicide verdict? And since when is Courtney Love concerned with sticking to the honest truth about anything anyway?
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
How would the second note shed doubt on the suicide? 1.) A total of 3 notes Courtney claims are suicide notes. 2.) The Rome Note the cops revealed was just a dear john letter. 3.) Courtney admits that the second note doesn't really talk about suicide but about him leaving her. That's why she was told to get rid of it. The 2nd note reveals the "official suicide note" is not a suicide not but a retirement letter to Kurt's fans.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr LOL at the "retirement letter theory" 1) Kurt's suicide note doesn't express ANY future plans or desires at all, and instead is rather self-damning and riddled with guilt and self pity. 2) The SPD allowed Courtney to burn the Rome Note because it had already served its purpose as a known handwriting sample of Cobain's, and also because Kurt was apparently bashing her for the entire 3 page letter. It was no longer evidence in the case.
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
1.) Doesn't matter. Kurt made plans to go fishing withis Grandfather and made plans to do a project with R.E.M. and Courtney is even taped recordes saying that Kurt may be staying with Michael Stipe.
2.) I don't care. What completely escapes you is the "why" of it. Like why she would chose to give that to the SPD as a handwriting sample. Duh! She did it while saying it was a suicide note, yet another tactic to manipulate people and get them to believe he was suicidal.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr 1)Cobain CANCELED his plans with Stipe just prior to going to rehab!! Stipe was interviewed about this: He said that he had sent Cobain a plane ticket to come out and see him, and the day before he was set to arrive, he called Stipe and canceled, without rescheduling.
2) Even the cops at the SPD said they didn't think the Rome Note sounded like a "suicide note", and the forensic analysts DON'T INTERPRET CONTENT, they just analyze the handwriting, DUH!
TestMeatDollSteak 3 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
1.) After Kurt disappeared from rehab she told Grant that Kurt may be staying with Michael Stipe. Kurt may have passed on the ticket but that means nothing.
2.) Yet the whole point of her giving the note to the SPD as a sample of handwriting while saying it's a suicide note seems to elude you. You know what "suicide trail" is. She didn't have to give them that note.
TheStarfkr 3 months ago
@TheStarfkr
1) Courtney was obviously just guessing about where he might be. She also said he might be with some female dope dealer that she thought he was having an affair with. Cobain never attempted to contact Stipe after cancelling his trip. That says A LOT.
2. Yet the fact that both Love and the SPD said the Rome Note was simply Kurt bashing on Courtney seems to elude you, and BOTH notes were forensically proved to be written entirely by Cobain.
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
@TestMeatDollSteak
1.) The fact that he died before being able to contact Stipe doesn't say a lot because if he was murdered he still wouldn't be able to contact him.
2.) The fact that Courtney did not have to provide them the Rome note and did not have to claim it was a suicide note eludes you. In your head that's normal behavior. It's called "suicide trail". She was working hard to convince people Kurt was suicidal.
TheStarfkr 2 months ago
@TheStarfkr
1) The point remains that Kurt CANCELED his trip to see Stipe, DIDN'T reschedule, and DIDN'T attempt to contact him (or any other his friends or family for that matter) after feeling rehab, which doesn't fit with Kurt "making plans" shortly before his death.
2) Doesn't matter - the cops themselves said the note was Kurt hating on Courtney, and forensic analysts DON'T INTERPRET CONTENT, they only analyze the handwriting. Round and round in circles we go!!
TestMeatDollSteak 2 months ago
Hey, no prints on the gun, no signs of being suicidal, note with 2 handwritings, a bitch ex wife with tons of motive (kurt was gonna divorcer her and she signed a prenup), too much heroin in his system to pick up the gun. Murder.
BlondAmericanAnarchy 8 months ago
That, or Kurt was motivated to kill himself...
TestMeatDollSteak 8 months ago
EdinAmmar is a cyber bully.
judyleasugar97 8 months ago
@judyleasugar97 He or she is a piece of shit. Sorry I didn't see those comments sooner.
hbtd49 8 months ago
Why don't you think Courtney did it? She was the only one with a motive.
judyleasugar97 8 months ago
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
EmoDudeize 9 months ago
WHY would he have killed himself? hes was the head of a kick-ass group. besides, how did he wipe the prints. and, its hard to put a shotgun at your head and pull the trigger
FireSlayer1167 9 months ago
there was a man who had drank so much alcohol that 53% of his bodily fluids was alcahol, he drove himself to the ER, gave the women his name, and then died. Most people will die before consuming enough alcohol to have 30%. My point is that certain medical anamolies exist, Kurt could of gotten that much heroin him himself, maybe attempting suicide that way first. And all the evedince that there is is cercumstantial. IF Kurt was killed, the person who did it will never be brought to justice.
SonsofAnarchy113 9 months ago
She did it. She tried to kill her first husband too, read love and death.
notyouraveragejuan 10 months ago
Just an FYI;
the qoute you said was wrong, lol
its supposed to say '
"Id rather be hated for who I am then to be loved for who i'm not."
KaytieBabooah 10 months ago 5
Murder I say. Fuck Courtney Love.
dangerdaysalice 10 months ago
Cameron retired early under allegations of stealing cash from crime scenes. He was never accused of taking bribes. No evidence exists of anyone who investigated Cobain's death having ever been paid off by anyone. It is unfortunate that Cameron had a history of having "sticky fingers", but that doesn't prove that he was paid off. There was no way that Courtney could've known who would be sent to investigate Kurt's death in the first place, so the "bribery" theory simply doesn't hold water.
TestMeatDollSteak 10 months ago
All it takes is one corrupt detective. Cameron was proven to be corrupt.
judyleasugar97 10 months ago
Fact: the cops declared the case a suicide within a half hour of arriving on the scene without even looking at a lot of the evidence. That should be a red flag there. Either completely negligent or corrupt. Reopen the investigation.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
This "family" of Kurt's, you mean Courtney? The one who cheated on him? Physically and verbally abused him? You mean that family? The one he was divorcing and cutting out of his will? You really think he would defend her? And that's leaving the little thing about his murder out of it.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 by family of kurt's i mean his mother. and his mother witnessed kurt od'ing and also says that kurt killed himself.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: Kurt and Wendy were not close. Kurt adored Frances, but not Wendy. And Wendy was manipulated by Courtney. You really don't know much.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 now you are truely insane and making stuff up. Kurt was verry close to his mother. He spoke with and visited her often. Now you are just being a liar and hypocrite. Please stop talking like you personally know kurt and his life. YOu know nothing about his behavior, feelings, and opinions, if you belive that he wasnt close with his mom. GIVE IT UP.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: No, Kurt and Wendy were not close. Before he got famous she had little use for him.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
"...This condition is of great medico-legal importance. Occasionally, in case of suicide, the weapon, e.g. pistol or knife is seen firmly grasped in the victim's hand which is a strong presumptive evidence of suicide. Attempts may be made to simulate this condition in order to conceal the murder, but ordinary rigor does not produce the same firm grip of a weapon..." Both quotes taken from Forensic Pathology Online, by Dr. Dinesh Rao. Link available by PM upon request.
TestMeatDollSteak 11 months ago
"Cadaveric spasm is a rare condition. In this, the muscles that were contracted in life become stiff and rigid immediately after death without passing into the stage of primary relaxation. As such, the change preserves the exact attitude of the person at the time of death for several hours afterward...No other condition simulates cadaveric spasm and it cannot be produced by any other method after death. Very great force is required to overcome stiffness...
TestMeatDollSteak 11 months ago
if u put a shotgun to ur head it will be hard to pull the trigger, and IF u manage to do it the shotgun would be atleast 4 or 5 feet away cuz the recoil , they found kurts body with a shotgun IN his hands so that bittch DID kill him . . .
98mccracken 11 months ago
@98mccracken Consider this quote by Nikolas Hartshorne, the coroner who examined Cobain's body:
"With gun suicides, you always still see the victim holding the barrel of the gun. That's because at the point of death, the hand freezes in place. We literally had to pry that shotgun from Cobain's hands. You could still see the markings in his palms from where he had been gripping it for days. That's a sure sign the wound was self inflicted. That kind of evidence doesn't lie." -from 'Love and Death'
TestMeatDollSteak 11 months ago
@98mccracken The phenomenon that Hartshorne is describing in Cobain's hand is called cadaveric spasm, aka: instantaneous rigor; cataleptic rigidity. Are you familiar with the medico-legal implications of said phenomenon, and its significance in determining homicide or suicide in forensic investigations? I wasn't, until I researched it on the handy-dandy internet. I can PM a few on-line forensic pathology sites to view for more info, if you're curious. If not, no biggie.
TestMeatDollSteak 11 months ago
Kurt was going to divorce Courtney for adultery and she had signed a prenup, that means no money, what she cares about most. Courtney tried to hire a local musician to kill him (2 witnesses) and she tried to murder her first husband as well, set the bed on fire while he slept. She is a psychopath, watch "Deadly Women" there are many female killers on the show like Courtney.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 Anyone who has ever watch the doc Kurt and Courtney by Bloomfield knows that Judy is a total fucking idiot to claim Courtney hired a local musician in la to kill kurt. Those people who judy mentions are drunks/drug addicts who were laughed at by anyone whose known them. Even the guy who investigated judys claim thinks those people who claimed to have been hired by courtney are total idiots.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 The real question should be why judy wastes her time posting lies, and rumors. Judy are you incapable of acknowledging the facts? Judy are you that mentally ill that you have nothing better to do that to constantly write about kurts death? Judy believes that courtney tried to kill kurt in rome by spiking his drinks and then she claims that kurt was clean in 94 ( while kurts close friends/family say the opposite) then she claims courtney bribes the police,d,a,, and corner.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: The real question is, why does EdinAmmar follow me around on youtube when I could care less what he thinks?
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 edinammar is sick and tired on reading your nonstop posts and comments about your paranoid theories. I am here to prove to everyone you post to that you are crazy,mentally ill, and that your theories rely on 3rd rate people,rumors, and lies. NOthing you say is based on logic. You theories rely on a weak Kurt, who is uncapable of speaking and thinking for himself and courtney bribing the police,d,a, and corner. U also think kurt was clean in 94 which is unfactual.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: I'm sick and tired of hearing the insulting things Courtney says about Kurt. I'm sick of hearing about the crap she pulls to get away with murder. Fuck her, I hope she burns in hell.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 i'm sick of hearing you constantly making Kurt out to be weak and naive. I am sick of you saying that Kurt didnt stick up and speak for himself. I am sick of you posting that Kurt was uncapable of making his own choices. No one made Kurt do anything he didnt want to do. I am sick of you making kurt out to be a person that he isn't. Kurt would spit on your face and tell you to leave him and his family alone if he were alive. Please re read the liner notes of insecticide.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: I think he would spit in your face for defending his murderer.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 kurt would most def spit on your face and tell you to leave him and his family alone. You are the one making kurt out to be a weak, naive, gulible person. You make kurt out to be a person who was incapable of speaking for himself or making any choices on his own. Kurt would hate you for making assumptions on him that are from from his real character. Kurt was vocal, opinionated, and never did anything he didnt want to do.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 your theory that Courtney tried to kil kurt in rome is proof that you are making Kurt out to be a person he wasnt. If Courtney ever tried to kill Kurt by spiking his drinks Kurt would be the first person to speak up and do something about it. I give Kurt, respect, and treat him like the strong, opinionaed, willful person that he was. Unlike you i dont have theories that rely on kurt being a submissive, weak, confused person. ON BEHALF OF KURT, I SPIT ON YOUR FACE.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: It was rohypnol. Called the date rape drug? People generally lose thier memory. You best spit in your own face then.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 yes i know what rohypnol is but even a person who was given that drug unknowingly, will wake up and realize that someone spiked there drink. In the case of kurt, kurt would have woken up in a hosptial and would have been told about all those pills in his system and that he almost died. Kurt is smart enough to know that if he didnt take those pills someone must have spiked his drink and tried to kill him. If that were the case kurt would have said and did something about it.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: Why would he assume that if he couldn't remember anything?
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 he didnt have to remember anything to put the facts together. If kurt never took the rohypnol and courtney tried to kill him this is would he would have known when we woke up. He would have awoken in a hospital and found out that large amounts of rohypnol was in his system and that he almost died. Kurt would have known that he didnt take any drugs and that the only way a large amount of the drug got in his system was by spiking his drink in the hotel.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: He was about to divorce her anyway. Even if he figured it out it wasn't Kurt's style to bring charges.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 judy who are you to make character judgements about kurt? who are you to say that kurt wouldnt have said or did anything if Courtney tried to kill him in rome? All you are doing is making up excuses to support your paranoid, schitzo, mentally ill theories. The more and more you talk about kurt the less attached you are to reasoning and logic. GET HELP.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: You're not making any sense.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 what dont you understand? You are a sick,paranoid person. You talk about kurt like you know his personal thoughts and feelings. You characterize kurt as a weak,confused, naive person. You make up lies inorder to believe your paranoid theories. I have expalined in logic that kurt used drugs in 94, I've also explain how crazy yer theory that Courtney tried to kill kurt in rome is. I've also told you how crazy your bribery theory of the police,d,a,. and corner is. What dont u get?
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: I've disproven everything you've said so I guess all you've got left is, you're crazy. Okay then.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 in yer crazy, paranoid mind you might have disproven what i've said but in the real world where logic and reasoning decides what is true or flase you've proven nothing besides your mental illness. YOu think others on youtube are conspiring against you by forming fake accounts. You have not given any logical reason to prove how courtney would knkow which lead dective, d,a, or corner to bribe in advance of kurts death.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: So you're saying it's impossible for a cop to ever have been bribed?
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 NO listen up you mentally ill schitzo. For your bribery theory to be true courtney would have to know in advance which out of the many lead dectivies would be assigned to kurts case. that's impossible to figure out. That same thing would have to happen with the district attorney and the corner. Courtney would have to know in advance which corner and da would be assigned to kurts case in order to bribe them
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 if you had any comprehension skills you'd know that i've repeatedly said that the police every major city in the usa has bad cops and corruption but that doesnt mean that every case they've investigated or evidence they've collected is flawed.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: They don't want to admit they were wrong. You don't know much about cops if you can't see that.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 you are insane and paranoid. The cops had no reason when they were investigating kurts death to say it was murder or suicide. They gathered the evidence, had a corner look at the body and came to a logical conculsion. Again with sucides all the pieces dont always fit and with a high profile case there are mistakes but the preponderance of the evidence stays the same. I've been arrested with felonies over 6x in my life. i know alot about cops and the justice system.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: You're just saying the same thing over and over without listening, look at my previous comments.
judyleasugar97 11 months ago
@judyleasugar97 i know your previoius comments and you are saying that the cops were corrupt, and that courtney bribed the police. I'm telling you that yer bribery theories are insane cause courtney would have no clue which lead dectivie would be assigned to kurts case. As for corruption. There is corruption in every police department in every major city but that doesn mean the evidence collected and the corner's report aren't factual. The preponderance of the evidence shows suicide.
EdinAmmar 11 months ago
@EdinAmmar: All it wo