some of thoreau's views, although understandable, are too radical to be applied practically. There are just some really naive ideas in there that just can't be done.
If you apply those ideas to yourself and not worry about what other people think, then it can be done. That was Thoreau's thesis: Individual change. Then, if you change, the whole world changes.
His views are too relativistic, he says that we should do what we feel right and follow our conscience. If everyone followed that then there will be conflicts and society cannot function on such relativistic views. There must be some universalized standard for all to follow, such as the law, in order for society to function. You say that we should "not worry about what other people think." But you cannot just ignore others since your actions will affect them also.
Good points, except they ignore transcendentalist philosophy which says that humans have a common morality. It is society that corrupts us by making millions of rules written and unwritten that keep us ignorant, that prevent us from finding truth and living by that truth. Thoreau refused to pay his church tax because he didn't like the hypocrisy in the church. He also refused to own a lot of "material things" that distracted him from his simple philosopher life. Things weigh people down.
3. What is this "truth"? It is very vague to me. What do you mean by "finding truth and living by that truth?"
4. And what is moral transcendence exactly? Is it the realization of some higher morality? (I'm not suggesting that you mean that but I am inviting you to explain this to me.)
5. The idea that we do not need government is outlandish. No government, no laws, that would be chaotic since we can do anything, no boundaries. I can go around killing, stealing, raping as I please.
His views also undermine morality. If everyone did what he felt was right, then morals are relative. If morals are relative, then everything can be right if you believed that they were right. If this is the case, then one cannot make interpersonal moral judgment on others. I can kill someone and say that I believed that I was doing the right thing and you can't say that I'm wrong if you follow Thoreau's view. Everything would be permissible based only on feelings.
1. The assumption that everyone has a common morality is wrong. The simple fact is that we don't. Morality is the social norms that was accepted over time. In other words, transcendentalist morality is either wrong, or is in need of some heavy justification and reasoning. You need to show why you believe everyone has the same morality.
2. I wouldn't say that society is always corrupt, or it keeps us ignorant.
6. You said do the right right thing. What is right? Remember, right and wrong cannot be relative or subjective, that will be a direct contradiction and also undermine the concept of right and wrong. Are you going by the utilitarian concept, or maybe the deontelogical ethics? I don't know, but please explain to me what is considered right?
Thoreau was wrong. The War in Mexico was a just War. Mexico had a dictator named Santa Anna that caused two provinces to declare independence. Texas won it's inependence. Texas became an independent Republic in 1836. They were not annexed by the US 1845. The annexation angered Mexico's dictator which then attacked The US. The war took two years and the US Won. Mexico should have ceased to exist then, but some big hearted Americans allowed them to remain independent.
I think they call that revisionist history, re-writing history to sanitize american violence perpetrated by politicians bent on U.S. Western expansionism. Isn't "annexation" a neat euphemism for overthrown?
And, that's besides the point. Thoreau was a pacifist, stirred on by the brutal behavior of U.S. soldiers reported at the time, the killing of innocent women and children. I've studied Michael Walzer's theories on Just War, and I've yet to see his ideas in action, so I'm a pacifist, too
Global waming, aha, so your'e a slow- death scenario kinda guy ; )) ...turn Maine upside down and it does look like the new Florida ; }..kinda ironic that the dinosaurs who got snuffed by an asteroid are helping to fuel global warming to snuff man-kind ; }
I am guided by a Christian philosophy (Jesus' teachings) that says the "end of times" is not an end of earth, per se, but the end of an era of human adolescent selfishness and the beginning of human brother/sisterhood. The people of the world will become a family of people dedicated to solving our common problems, rather than competing against each other for resources and wealth. The Mayan calendar says 2012 is the new beginning. I can't wait!!!!
Have you ever seen 'A Boy and his Dog" ? with Don Johnson, an 'underground' classic ; ) ..I hope if anybody inherits the Earth, it's the native indians, they've been the best guardians of her so far. I think an asteroid will be our end anyway ; ) -- Dino
Armageddon it! Personally, I prefer the global warming scenario. It's slow and gives people time to think, work out our problems and then set it right in one lifetime.
As a cog in the steel making machinery for 35 years, Henry has always been a shining beacon of aspiration for me, remember the Biology 101 experiment where when the quantity of life (of anything) increases, the quality of life decreases? God help us all ; )
Here, Here Barney. I'm re-reading Walden for the umteenth time this summer. I am being re-inspired. "Business corrupts everything it touches, including the business of religion."
Remember your first copy, it was maybe $2.95, now your lucky to find one for $12.95 ; }....What do you think of the quote in 'the Matrix' where Mr. Smith says "Mankind is a virus eating up the face of the Earth" ? Partially benign, mostly virulent, the human animal marches on ; )..thoughtful take on McChurches btw ; )...'Salvation on sale here, buy one get two free " ; }
I love the Matrix trilogy, and that particular quote cause much consternation for me, but I realized we humans have a choice to be a "virus" or live symbiotically with the planet. The real virus is the corporations that seek to exploit the environment at any cost. It's nihilism, like the virus.
How about "Choice is an illusion created by those with power for those without." The Merovingian.
Honestly, I think mankind is in the early stages of total nihilism, as if there's no point in turning back, unless something drastic happens,unless mother nature saves herself, through some SUPER-virus, which wipes out 3/4the of the population, we've set sail, all on the same ship,captive or not, towards the edge of a flat planet, so to speak, I worry people who would save the earth are out numbered by the greedy and complacent.What's it gonna take on our part? - Soyent Green ; )
I guess, getting back to Thoreau is the way forward. We must be the change that we desire, live the life that we've imagined, then the whole world will come around to us.
Then again, Native Am activist, Russell Means said that Native peoples will rule the world again when crazy white people will wreak self-destruction, and somewhere on top of a mountain in Peru, a few Native people will survive and re-people the earth. We need some hope.
thoroughly enjoyed this video peacelf, had never heard of thoreau until you sent me this. have been doing some research further, and finding it very interesting reading. cheers for the lead :D
One more thing. I'm willing to have a VERY limited wardrobe, and live in a VERY casual state. No need for me to wear a suit, ever.
What I can't sew myself, I'm going to have a local, self-employed tailor make. I won't spend much more, and I'll KNOW she's giving herself a living wage. I don't WANT clothing made by children in sweat shops.
Never shop where you would not work.
Never buy what you would not produce, or let your children produce.
totally, Good advice all. I just planted my garden last week, and I'm shopping at the Good Will and Salvation Army for second hand clothes. I pick through the trash for furniture and household items. My computer desk is from the curb. I've turned off my TV (most nights) and spend more time reading books purchased from the used book store. When I do grocery shop, it's at the locally owned store. I want to do more.
Do you Freecycle? Google it if you don't know about it. My area has a yahoo group, and I'll tell you what, I've moved things I really don't use, that are clutter ("but I paid x dollars for it...") OUT of my home to someone who can use it, and I would never hesitate to go there FIRST for just about anything.
I'd also LOVE to have a food co-op. The local attempt failed because they tried to sell produce, hard to maintain, needs to move fast. Non-perishables only works best.
Peaceelf, re the garden, test your soil for lead if you are urban, and kreosote if you are close to the building. You can still eat what you grow but keep in mind the need for extra antioxidants in your diet, and use the plants own "abilities", ie eat the greens you grow, but not the roots. I'm no expert--gangrene thumb here, but I did read that, more important when it's little kids.
I feel ASHAMED that when my local grocery workers were negotiating for HEALTH CARE, all I could do was assure them I'd never cross a picket line.
NOW I think, we shoppers should have REFUSED TO BUY PRODUCE AND DAIRY until those companies gave the people who handle our food HEALTH CARE. There are specialty dairy stores and farmers markets. And KROGER needed to be ankle deep in spoiling lettuce and milk to learn that we aren't their captives, and our grocers are not their slaves.
Buy Nothing Day--it's the biggest shopping day of the year, the Friday after Thanksgiving. NEVER gets any television or other press, wonder why, but individuals can get the word out.
We should choose a week in mid summer to refuse to use or buy gasoline. Don't mow the lawn, don't drive to work. If you can't walk or bike, bus. If you can't bus, hitchhike (if your state is relatively friendly).
Or get someone to lend you a truck and get a BIG carpool going.
Basically, I thorougly agree with all the aforementioned policies of change:
General strike.
Boycotting companies that profit off war.
Ending excessive consumption.
Organizing grass root efforts: One excellent idea is to organize atleast a thousand people in each Congressional District who basically act as a Congress Watch. Not only would they be overseeing any potential corruption, but they can use their leverage to influence more peaceful policies.
Regardless of which of the preceding instruments of change we adopt, if not all, we must translate our efforts into political power, otherwise it will all be in vain. (I believe this is lacking in the anti-war movement today).
Finally, any major change in society must first start with the self. As Ghandi expressed, "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
liberal, I am totally with you on the last point. I believe being that change means voting for marginalized candidates who better fit your ideals, like Kucinich, Nader, Gravel.
Mostly being an excample of community service is important. It offers opportunities to meet different people.
What can we do? Well I think we should organize, and we seem to be well on our way to doing just that. But it needs to be on a much grander scale. And how to achieve that, Im not sure.
dun, I agree organization is the best way for change. I have woked in grassroots organizing for over 18 years and I have seen how effective it is, if and only if, the organization is reaching out to those who are most disaffected and/or disempowered by the curtrent system. In other words, we need to reach out to those who think differently. We all tend to gravitate toward those who agree with us, but the danger in working with people who agree is a smug sense of purpose...cont.
cont. That sense of smug purpose then leads to arrogance and posturing, even anger and lashing out at people who think differently. I left the peace movement locally and the Green Party because I wished to work with people who needed the most from what I have to offer, as I need them to temper my political passions. I joined a Baptist church, one of the most conservative in the country. I have been there over a year and have make significant changes in their ideas about love and justice.
great video. what i've been doing in my own life is boycotting those companies which are profiting off war. if enough people boycott these corporations, then their association to the war will turn into a costly stigma. war will not continue because it will no longer be profitable.
Have you ever checked the legality of advocating that in public? I'm not trying to shake you up, just telling you that there is resistance to that.
I believe it is illegal for an individual to boycot, say, Israel, for it's human rights violations. Surely that is not a lawful law, but it seems to me it's in existence.
We just have to expect resistance and understand that personal choices, publicly shared, become political speech or political acts, and someone is going to want to stop it
I've never heard of that. How would that law work? Would they force you to buy Israeli goods? I've publicly advocated boycotting war profiteers like GE and had no legal problems. Either way, unjust laws are made to be challenged.
Well, we can look at discrimination in employment as a sort of boycot against, say, blacks and women. How did laws against that practice work? 1. They could say you aren't allowed to have a policy of boycotting Israeli companies. 2. They can require you to buy a certain quota of Israeli made goods, or prove that you got bids from Israeli companies.
But I don't know the details of the law, if it was ever enacted even, or if/how it's been tested/enforced.
transcend the laws and morays of an unjust society. i don't know if youtube or social networks are working towards that end in some way by letting the citizens decide what is worth injecting into their consciousness. at it's best, youtube has to be. do you see anyone in the mainstream continuing thoreau's concept of a well governed state of enlightened citizenry? do you see the philosophy of the ages continued today in anyone?i ask b/c we must champion those folks whenever possible.
Yes, I do. I see it in Cornell West. I see it in Michael Eric Dyson. I see it in Jim Wallis, bell hooks, Marrianne Williamson, but I don't see it in our political leaders, who thrive on the expediency of political power. I consider Cornell West to be one of the most prophetic voices of reason today. I would think the same about Dyson, but he still clings to mainstream politicians uncritically. Yet, he challenges us to do better. There are lesser known people, like Wendell Berry,
i'm may be headed to brooklyn, ny next weekend for the black writer's conference at medgar evers college. dr. west will be there. i've been writing to his secretary at princeton the past 6 months. sent him an essay i wrote. at one point she told me dr. west had seen it and wanted to talk to me. don't know how true that was. he then went to africa and has been all over the place lately. i'm'a still try to get my 10 mins w/ the man. i'd like to talk to dyson as well. they say everything i think.
I've talked to Dyson in Detroit after a sermon he gave at Renaissance Unity Church. I've been to Dr. West's talks twice, met him once, but I didn't get to talk to him at any length. I think his book Democracy Matters is one of the best political and prophetic critiques of the state of america politics. He draws on some of my favorite authors.
I really enjoy listening to your stories. You're style is unique. I can sense a hip hop or jazz influence, and the music in the background...
cont. The music in the background of your stories is reminiscent of the Last Poets, except in story form. But, I hear the music in your words. I wish you the best with your writings.
web, I unfortuanely are am still driving a Honda Civic, but I shop for books at a used book store, I also shop at locally owned stores, mostly, then buy very little otherwise. I agree that it is important where we put our dollar.
My son, on the other hand, lives Thoreau's life much more closely. He owns no car. His clothes are grunge on steroids. He is a childcare worker for pocket money and lives in my basement. He's a musician, an artist. I introduced him to Thoreau in 10th grade.
did you ask what we could do to bring this war to a halt?
We could stop buying what was not absolutely necessary for survival That's food, essential medicine, gasoline...we could refuse to upgrade or replace our aging computers, cars, bicycles. We could stop buying books in favor of trading and using the library. We could be OK letting our clothes grow frayed. We could bring the economy to a grinding halt. We could say we are not returning to our consumer ways so long as we're at war.
totally, This is exactly the kinds of responses I hoped for, suggestion on what people do to make a better world. I agree that we should stop behaving like starving consumers, period, since it is our insatiable appetite for cheap products that fuels the U.S. greed for oil resources from poor, defenseless countries. Thanks.
That idea has been called "economic terrorism". Have you read much about Buy Nothing Day, and the great difficulty of AdBusters and others to even BUY commercial air time advertising it? It would not be a totally "non-violent" act. People would lose their jobs, others would be threatened and shaken up (just like the bus boycotters after Ms Parks's stand were threatened and shaken up) and any suffering would be framed as middle class people attacking the poor.
I agree with you. I'm just saying that if we really had a consumer strike of any significance, the resistance would come in the form of publicity--we would be called terrorists, accused of killing the poor, with live video images of poor people dying and all that. All the counterattacks that the labour movement and civil rights movement would come our way, without the impediment habeas corpus and other laws used to provide. And the same population that thinks Muslims r problem, will turn on u
I was thinking of a strike for more than a day. But you are right, on Buy Nothing Day, it's a good idea to have people giving away coffee, and sandwiches, not just to the poor, but to anyone, just to show that we are able to pull together and know that there ways to measure our national worth beyond the GNP. There is another, alternative indicator that factores in the value of volunteer and "parent at home" type work too.
Consumer strike is probably the most effective thing that could be done. The trick is to 1. Have "Adbusters" ready to defend the strike against charges of being economic terrorists and evil doers. 2. Have a perfectly spontaneous strike with no leadership who can be spirited away. Maybe I'm paranoid (of course I am) but I'm pretty sure an organized consumer strike could be prosecuted under RICO or something. It's dangerous, like getting tween hungry jackal & wounded deer.
I have an accent? ;- ) The only accent I'm aware of having is growing up in the central city of a northern Ohio town and working for 15 years in a predominately black urban school. I've learned to move in and out of cultures by using their dialect. As for YouTube vids, that's just me.
Thanks, dude. Took what I needed from this to help me understand the Thoreau essay for my lit class. Keep on keepin on!
safewayselect 5 months ago
some of thoreau's views, although understandable, are too radical to be applied practically. There are just some really naive ideas in there that just can't be done.
petswodahs 2 years ago
Like What?
If you apply those ideas to yourself and not worry about what other people think, then it can be done. That was Thoreau's thesis: Individual change. Then, if you change, the whole world changes.
Thanks for the comment.
peacelf 2 years ago
His views are too relativistic, he says that we should do what we feel right and follow our conscience. If everyone followed that then there will be conflicts and society cannot function on such relativistic views. There must be some universalized standard for all to follow, such as the law, in order for society to function. You say that we should "not worry about what other people think." But you cannot just ignore others since your actions will affect them also.
petswodahs 2 years ago
Good points, except they ignore transcendentalist philosophy which says that humans have a common morality. It is society that corrupts us by making millions of rules written and unwritten that keep us ignorant, that prevent us from finding truth and living by that truth. Thoreau refused to pay his church tax because he didn't like the hypocrisy in the church. He also refused to own a lot of "material things" that distracted him from his simple philosopher life. Things weigh people down.
peacelf 2 years ago
3. What is this "truth"? It is very vague to me. What do you mean by "finding truth and living by that truth?"
4. And what is moral transcendence exactly? Is it the realization of some higher morality? (I'm not suggesting that you mean that but I am inviting you to explain this to me.)
5. The idea that we do not need government is outlandish. No government, no laws, that would be chaotic since we can do anything, no boundaries. I can go around killing, stealing, raping as I please.
petswodahs 2 years ago
His views also undermine morality. If everyone did what he felt was right, then morals are relative. If morals are relative, then everything can be right if you believed that they were right. If this is the case, then one cannot make interpersonal moral judgment on others. I can kill someone and say that I believed that I was doing the right thing and you can't say that I'm wrong if you follow Thoreau's view. Everything would be permissible based only on feelings.
petswodahs 2 years ago
cont 2. So, if every one sought moral transcendence, there would be no need for government, laws. etc.
Doing the right thing means not interfering with others rights and freedoms. That's morality.
peace
peacelf 2 years ago
Ok here r some problems:
1. The assumption that everyone has a common morality is wrong. The simple fact is that we don't. Morality is the social norms that was accepted over time. In other words, transcendentalist morality is either wrong, or is in need of some heavy justification and reasoning. You need to show why you believe everyone has the same morality.
2. I wouldn't say that society is always corrupt, or it keeps us ignorant.
petswodahs 2 years ago
6. You said do the right right thing. What is right? Remember, right and wrong cannot be relative or subjective, that will be a direct contradiction and also undermine the concept of right and wrong. Are you going by the utilitarian concept, or maybe the deontelogical ethics? I don't know, but please explain to me what is considered right?
petswodahs 2 years ago
Thoreau was wrong. The War in Mexico was a just War. Mexico had a dictator named Santa Anna that caused two provinces to declare independence. Texas won it's inependence. Texas became an independent Republic in 1836. They were not annexed by the US 1845. The annexation angered Mexico's dictator which then attacked The US. The war took two years and the US Won. Mexico should have ceased to exist then, but some big hearted Americans allowed them to remain independent.
beowulfthedane 2 years ago
I think they call that revisionist history, re-writing history to sanitize american violence perpetrated by politicians bent on U.S. Western expansionism. Isn't "annexation" a neat euphemism for overthrown?
And, that's besides the point. Thoreau was a pacifist, stirred on by the brutal behavior of U.S. soldiers reported at the time, the killing of innocent women and children. I've studied Michael Walzer's theories on Just War, and I've yet to see his ideas in action, so I'm a pacifist, too
peacelf 2 years ago
Global waming, aha, so your'e a slow- death scenario kinda guy ; )) ...turn Maine upside down and it does look like the new Florida ; }..kinda ironic that the dinosaurs who got snuffed by an asteroid are helping to fuel global warming to snuff man-kind ; }
barneygoogled 2 years ago
I am guided by a Christian philosophy (Jesus' teachings) that says the "end of times" is not an end of earth, per se, but the end of an era of human adolescent selfishness and the beginning of human brother/sisterhood. The people of the world will become a family of people dedicated to solving our common problems, rather than competing against each other for resources and wealth. The Mayan calendar says 2012 is the new beginning. I can't wait!!!!
peacelf 2 years ago
Have you ever seen 'A Boy and his Dog" ? with Don Johnson, an 'underground' classic ; ) ..I hope if anybody inherits the Earth, it's the native indians, they've been the best guardians of her so far. I think an asteroid will be our end anyway ; ) -- Dino
barneygoogled 2 years ago
Armageddon it! Personally, I prefer the global warming scenario. It's slow and gives people time to think, work out our problems and then set it right in one lifetime.
Haven't seen that one. I'll look it up.
peace
peacelf 2 years ago
As a cog in the steel making machinery for 35 years, Henry has always been a shining beacon of aspiration for me, remember the Biology 101 experiment where when the quantity of life (of anything) increases, the quality of life decreases? God help us all ; )
barneygoogled 2 years ago
Here, Here Barney. I'm re-reading Walden for the umteenth time this summer. I am being re-inspired. "Business corrupts everything it touches, including the business of religion."
peace
peacelf 2 years ago
Remember your first copy, it was maybe $2.95, now your lucky to find one for $12.95 ; }....What do you think of the quote in 'the Matrix' where Mr. Smith says "Mankind is a virus eating up the face of the Earth" ? Partially benign, mostly virulent, the human animal marches on ; )..thoughtful take on McChurches btw ; )...'Salvation on sale here, buy one get two free " ; }
barneygoogled 2 years ago
I love the Matrix trilogy, and that particular quote cause much consternation for me, but I realized we humans have a choice to be a "virus" or live symbiotically with the planet. The real virus is the corporations that seek to exploit the environment at any cost. It's nihilism, like the virus.
How about "Choice is an illusion created by those with power for those without." The Merovingian.
peacelf 2 years ago
Honestly, I think mankind is in the early stages of total nihilism, as if there's no point in turning back, unless something drastic happens,unless mother nature saves herself, through some SUPER-virus, which wipes out 3/4the of the population, we've set sail, all on the same ship,captive or not, towards the edge of a flat planet, so to speak, I worry people who would save the earth are out numbered by the greedy and complacent.What's it gonna take on our part? - Soyent Green ; )
barneygoogled 2 years ago
I guess, getting back to Thoreau is the way forward. We must be the change that we desire, live the life that we've imagined, then the whole world will come around to us.
Then again, Native Am activist, Russell Means said that Native peoples will rule the world again when crazy white people will wreak self-destruction, and somewhere on top of a mountain in Peru, a few Native people will survive and re-people the earth. We need some hope.
peace
Soylent Green??? Polly want a cracker: )
peacelf 2 years ago
You seem like a great guy to get high with.
jophus82 2 years ago
I don't get high anymore, but I'm still a pretty good conversationalist.
peace
peacelf 2 years ago
thoreau is my favourite writer very good video thanks
bearsagainstevil 3 years ago
TRUTH. BEAUTIFUL TRUTH.
fckuvrymch 3 years ago
I wish everyone was interested in searching for the truth!
peace
peacelf 3 years ago
thoroughly enjoyed this video peacelf, had never heard of thoreau until you sent me this. have been doing some research further, and finding it very interesting reading. cheers for the lead :D
x
subgirl16 3 years ago
Thoreau my favorite author,enjoyed your video:)
proofisinthepudding 3 years ago 2
One more thing. I'm willing to have a VERY limited wardrobe, and live in a VERY casual state. No need for me to wear a suit, ever.
What I can't sew myself, I'm going to have a local, self-employed tailor make. I won't spend much more, and I'll KNOW she's giving herself a living wage. I don't WANT clothing made by children in sweat shops.
Never shop where you would not work.
Never buy what you would not produce, or let your children produce.
totallybarefoot 3 years ago 4
totally, Good advice all. I just planted my garden last week, and I'm shopping at the Good Will and Salvation Army for second hand clothes. I pick through the trash for furniture and household items. My computer desk is from the curb. I've turned off my TV (most nights) and spend more time reading books purchased from the used book store. When I do grocery shop, it's at the locally owned store. I want to do more.
peacelf 3 years ago
Do you Freecycle? Google it if you don't know about it. My area has a yahoo group, and I'll tell you what, I've moved things I really don't use, that are clutter ("but I paid x dollars for it...") OUT of my home to someone who can use it, and I would never hesitate to go there FIRST for just about anything.
I'd also LOVE to have a food co-op. The local attempt failed because they tried to sell produce, hard to maintain, needs to move fast. Non-perishables only works best.
totallybarefoot 3 years ago
Peaceelf, re the garden, test your soil for lead if you are urban, and kreosote if you are close to the building. You can still eat what you grow but keep in mind the need for extra antioxidants in your diet, and use the plants own "abilities", ie eat the greens you grow, but not the roots. I'm no expert--gangrene thumb here, but I did read that, more important when it's little kids.
totallybarefoot 3 years ago
Good message,.. gotta remember that one.
FreeMindSociety 3 years ago
I feel ASHAMED that when my local grocery workers were negotiating for HEALTH CARE, all I could do was assure them I'd never cross a picket line.
NOW I think, we shoppers should have REFUSED TO BUY PRODUCE AND DAIRY until those companies gave the people who handle our food HEALTH CARE. There are specialty dairy stores and farmers markets. And KROGER needed to be ankle deep in spoiling lettuce and milk to learn that we aren't their captives, and our grocers are not their slaves.
totallybarefoot 3 years ago 4
Buy Nothing Day--it's the biggest shopping day of the year, the Friday after Thanksgiving. NEVER gets any television or other press, wonder why, but individuals can get the word out.
We should choose a week in mid summer to refuse to use or buy gasoline. Don't mow the lawn, don't drive to work. If you can't walk or bike, bus. If you can't bus, hitchhike (if your state is relatively friendly).
Or get someone to lend you a truck and get a BIG carpool going.
totallybarefoot 3 years ago
hey peacelf. hope you like the vidResponse!
peace and civil disobedience! sounds like a good kind of anarchy to me. laws with common sense included instead of discluded!
thanks for the great interlude. one back at ya from japan. peACE!
MusiCureSanity 3 years ago 4
awsome.
eligarf 3 years ago 2
...my original post was lost...
Basically, I thorougly agree with all the aforementioned policies of change:
General strike.
Boycotting companies that profit off war.
Ending excessive consumption.
Organizing grass root efforts: One excellent idea is to organize atleast a thousand people in each Congressional District who basically act as a Congress Watch. Not only would they be overseeing any potential corruption, but they can use their leverage to influence more peaceful policies.
liberalmediamyas5 3 years ago
Regardless of which of the preceding instruments of change we adopt, if not all, we must translate our efforts into political power, otherwise it will all be in vain. (I believe this is lacking in the anti-war movement today).
Finally, any major change in society must first start with the self. As Ghandi expressed, "Be the change you wish to see in the world."
liberalmediamyas5 3 years ago
liberal, I am totally with you on the last point. I believe being that change means voting for marginalized candidates who better fit your ideals, like Kucinich, Nader, Gravel.
Mostly being an excample of community service is important. It offers opportunities to meet different people.
peace
peacelf 3 years ago
What can we do? Well I think we should organize, and we seem to be well on our way to doing just that. But it needs to be on a much grander scale. And how to achieve that, Im not sure.
dundotta28 3 years ago
dun, I agree organization is the best way for change. I have woked in grassroots organizing for over 18 years and I have seen how effective it is, if and only if, the organization is reaching out to those who are most disaffected and/or disempowered by the curtrent system. In other words, we need to reach out to those who think differently. We all tend to gravitate toward those who agree with us, but the danger in working with people who agree is a smug sense of purpose...cont.
peacelf 3 years ago
cont. That sense of smug purpose then leads to arrogance and posturing, even anger and lashing out at people who think differently. I left the peace movement locally and the Green Party because I wished to work with people who needed the most from what I have to offer, as I need them to temper my political passions. I joined a Baptist church, one of the most conservative in the country. I have been there over a year and have make significant changes in their ideas about love and justice.
peacelf 3 years ago
great video. what i've been doing in my own life is boycotting those companies which are profiting off war. if enough people boycott these corporations, then their association to the war will turn into a costly stigma. war will not continue because it will no longer be profitable.
ManilaRyceTLM 3 years ago
Have you ever checked the legality of advocating that in public? I'm not trying to shake you up, just telling you that there is resistance to that.
I believe it is illegal for an individual to boycot, say, Israel, for it's human rights violations. Surely that is not a lawful law, but it seems to me it's in existence.
We just have to expect resistance and understand that personal choices, publicly shared, become political speech or political acts, and someone is going to want to stop it
totallybarefoot 3 years ago
@totallybarefoot
I've never heard of that. How would that law work? Would they force you to buy Israeli goods? I've publicly advocated boycotting war profiteers like GE and had no legal problems. Either way, unjust laws are made to be challenged.
ManilaRyceTLM 3 years ago
Well, we can look at discrimination in employment as a sort of boycot against, say, blacks and women. How did laws against that practice work? 1. They could say you aren't allowed to have a policy of boycotting Israeli companies. 2. They can require you to buy a certain quota of Israeli made goods, or prove that you got bids from Israeli companies.
But I don't know the details of the law, if it was ever enacted even, or if/how it's been tested/enforced.
totallybarefoot 3 years ago
transcend the laws and morays of an unjust society. i don't know if youtube or social networks are working towards that end in some way by letting the citizens decide what is worth injecting into their consciousness. at it's best, youtube has to be. do you see anyone in the mainstream continuing thoreau's concept of a well governed state of enlightened citizenry? do you see the philosophy of the ages continued today in anyone?i ask b/c we must champion those folks whenever possible.
bygINCpresents 3 years ago
Yes, I do. I see it in Cornell West. I see it in Michael Eric Dyson. I see it in Jim Wallis, bell hooks, Marrianne Williamson, but I don't see it in our political leaders, who thrive on the expediency of political power. I consider Cornell West to be one of the most prophetic voices of reason today. I would think the same about Dyson, but he still clings to mainstream politicians uncritically. Yet, he challenges us to do better. There are lesser known people, like Wendell Berry,
peacelf 3 years ago
i'm may be headed to brooklyn, ny next weekend for the black writer's conference at medgar evers college. dr. west will be there. i've been writing to his secretary at princeton the past 6 months. sent him an essay i wrote. at one point she told me dr. west had seen it and wanted to talk to me. don't know how true that was. he then went to africa and has been all over the place lately. i'm'a still try to get my 10 mins w/ the man. i'd like to talk to dyson as well. they say everything i think.
bygINCpresents 3 years ago
I've talked to Dyson in Detroit after a sermon he gave at Renaissance Unity Church. I've been to Dr. West's talks twice, met him once, but I didn't get to talk to him at any length. I think his book Democracy Matters is one of the best political and prophetic critiques of the state of america politics. He draws on some of my favorite authors.
I really enjoy listening to your stories. You're style is unique. I can sense a hip hop or jazz influence, and the music in the background...
peacelf 3 years ago
cont. The music in the background of your stories is reminiscent of the Last Poets, except in story form. But, I hear the music in your words. I wish you the best with your writings.
peace
peacelf 3 years ago
Thanks for echoing these voices of reason, Peacelf.
I haven't even OWNED a car in 7 years. I second and third alot of what the other posters have said and recommended EMPHATICALLY.
Stop over-consuming unnecessarily,for god sakes. The riches within FAR FAR outway any corporate artifact the shill-meisters can vend to you.
Connect locally with others, farm locally, raise consciousness moment to moment, in the least of your gestures and interactions...NOW.
Patrick
webkahmik 3 years ago
web, I unfortuanely are am still driving a Honda Civic, but I shop for books at a used book store, I also shop at locally owned stores, mostly, then buy very little otherwise. I agree that it is important where we put our dollar.
My son, on the other hand, lives Thoreau's life much more closely. He owns no car. His clothes are grunge on steroids. He is a childcare worker for pocket money and lives in my basement. He's a musician, an artist. I introduced him to Thoreau in 10th grade.
peacelf 3 years ago
did you ask what we could do to bring this war to a halt?
We could stop buying what was not absolutely necessary for survival That's food, essential medicine, gasoline...we could refuse to upgrade or replace our aging computers, cars, bicycles. We could stop buying books in favor of trading and using the library. We could be OK letting our clothes grow frayed. We could bring the economy to a grinding halt. We could say we are not returning to our consumer ways so long as we're at war.
totallybarefoot 3 years ago
totally, This is exactly the kinds of responses I hoped for, suggestion on what people do to make a better world. I agree that we should stop behaving like starving consumers, period, since it is our insatiable appetite for cheap products that fuels the U.S. greed for oil resources from poor, defenseless countries. Thanks.
peace
peacelf 3 years ago
That idea has been called "economic terrorism". Have you read much about Buy Nothing Day, and the great difficulty of AdBusters and others to even BUY commercial air time advertising it? It would not be a totally "non-violent" act. People would lose their jobs, others would be threatened and shaken up (just like the bus boycotters after Ms Parks's stand were threatened and shaken up) and any suffering would be framed as middle class people attacking the poor.
totallybarefoot 3 years ago
And what would entail inaction ?? Also general-strike for a day would send a strong signal to people in power. For the poor their
situation is no-better now, and purpose of civil-disobedience is to draw attention to injustice being done to everyone including the
poor.
DL16Heavy 3 years ago
I agree with you. I'm just saying that if we really had a consumer strike of any significance, the resistance would come in the form of publicity--we would be called terrorists, accused of killing the poor, with live video images of poor people dying and all that. All the counterattacks that the labour movement and civil rights movement would come our way, without the impediment habeas corpus and other laws used to provide. And the same population that thinks Muslims r problem, will turn on u
totallybarefoot 3 years ago
What if on that day of the strike, those of us with the means serve food to the poor that day, including pay for a meal?
I think we should always set an example of what we want and spreading the wealth is the best example we can show.
peace
peacelf 3 years ago
I was thinking of a strike for more than a day. But you are right, on Buy Nothing Day, it's a good idea to have people giving away coffee, and sandwiches, not just to the poor, but to anyone, just to show that we are able to pull together and know that there ways to measure our national worth beyond the GNP. There is another, alternative indicator that factores in the value of volunteer and "parent at home" type work too.
totallybarefoot 3 years ago
Consumer strike is probably the most effective thing that could be done. The trick is to 1. Have "Adbusters" ready to defend the strike against charges of being economic terrorists and evil doers. 2. Have a perfectly spontaneous strike with no leadership who can be spirited away. Maybe I'm paranoid (of course I am) but I'm pretty sure an organized consumer strike could be prosecuted under RICO or something. It's dangerous, like getting tween hungry jackal & wounded deer.
totallybarefoot 3 years ago
5 stars.
DL16Heavy 3 years ago
Wisconsin?
bapyou 3 years ago
I give. Wisconsin what?
peacelf 3 years ago
Your accent.
bapyou 3 years ago
I have an accent? ;- ) The only accent I'm aware of having is growing up in the central city of a northern Ohio town and working for 15 years in a predominately black urban school. I've learned to move in and out of cultures by using their dialect. As for YouTube vids, that's just me.
peace
peacelf 3 years ago
Northern Ohio? Well. I heard the timbre of an unequivocal Midwesterner.
bapyou 3 years ago
very nice. I made a video a while back where I read part of what you read. Inspiring stuff for sure. We should all keep it in mind.
CitizenWorm 3 years ago
i like picking fine fruits! a general strike will show the government.
wasy35 3 years ago
That's my idea, too. I was going to propose it, but I wanted to see if it had legs.
peace
peacelf 3 years ago