sooo big shot, ill give u somethin to do with the rest of ur day, lil scraps 4 the troll, y did the pentagon seize videos? n the molten metal? molten metal up to 6 weeks after?
Since I cant possibly explain everything in one YT comment I'll give you a small response. Melted metal is fully expected in normal fires. Melted steel is full expected to be reported in normal fires. You said the towers collapsed at free fall speed, but their collapse times were longer than free fall which makes your claim simply wrong. Now, you claim Im trolling yet you are the one coming here and making numerous claims expecting full answers in a YT comment.
Seen it, exactly what do you think is so special? You said the towers fell at free fall speed, they didnt. You said molten metal was suspicious, its expected. You said melted steel was suspicious, reports are expected.
"y did 7 fall, not jus fall cave in, when "nothing" happened to it?"
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Nothing happened? It had a huge gouge in yhe south side, 7 hours of fully involved fire unfought, firefighters observed it leaning, bulging, groaning, creaking and thinks cracking and falling and thats why they all thought it was going to collapse/.
I don't think that the author's unsubstantiated photocopies or the FBI's diagrams introduced at the Massaoui trial are evidence of original manifests. Were the manifests presented to any of the inquiries? If not, why not? And if they exist, who has them and when did they get them, and what might be the problem of releasing them?
The official passenger manifests have never been officially released and remain the property of the airlines. The fact remains that there was NEVER a REASON for the claim that there were "no hijackers names on the flight manifests". That David R.Griffin falsely told you the Victim lists were manifests, they were not and did not include hijackers on purpose and seating arrangements for Flight 77 obtained from the airline by Boston Globe 2 days after 911 do show hijacker names.
The U.S. Gov encourarages misinfo For years,there was no verifiable evidence that the alleged hijackers were on the pass manifests as the US gov refused to release these docs By not releasing the U.S. Gov encouraged spec that the hijackers names did not show up on the pass lists. Misinfo benefits the US Gov and its cover-up of the 9/11 crimes.
What reason do you have to believe there were no hijackers on the flight manifests? As i said in the video David Ray Griffin one and only reason for saying that is because he falsely claimed the CNN victim lists were flight manifests.
Yea I actually did see the list on the airlines website. They at least used to post them by law. The policy must have changed for obvious reasons. So it is not a conspiracy to think that the government would pull a false flag. They do it all the time. It is very common to do these types of things in warefare. It is not in the realm of fantasy to think that that the shadowy NWO would pull something off like this. They screwed up so many times in this flalse flag, it is ridiculously obvious.
So you're saying they are so incompetent they decided to release all the evidence that would expose them beacuse of "the law". Maybe it was an NWO intern at AA that did it, right? o_O Considering as how you're the only person who has ever claimed to have seen this list and that David Ray Griffin falsely claimed the CNN's victim list was a flight manifest who is the original source for this claim never claimed to either you're either lying or mistaken. Im guessing mistaken.
". They screwed up so many times in this flalse flag, it is ridiculously obvious. "-
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Yea, according to you guys they are complete genius', with god like amounts of luck while at the same time being absurdly stupid, just so people like you can point it out later but somehow no one else sees it but you.
@TheSkepticalIdealist This is one of the weaker pieces of evidence and its no wonder why debunkers choose this and other things like the pull it comment to focus on instead things like why flight 93 had two crash sites why the videos were confiscated at the pentagon what the method of collapse was of building 7.
I made 2 videos of WTC7, check before you run your mouth off. Also, its ALL been addressed hundreds of times in a hundred different ways. Dont claim ignorance because you're too lazy to check. I chose this claim because its so obviously wrong in so many different ways, the point is not to prove that 911 was not an inside job with this video, just that truther "experts" like David Ray Griffin are liars or so incompetent you cant tell the difference. Apparently you dont care.
@TheSkepticalIdealist I did check your channel and you never really go in depth about the method by which building 7 came down you just state that it was on fire and you list testimony from firefighters stating that it was on fire but you never actually say how the fire brought it down and how they could have done so at freefall acceleration. You also did not answer my other questions about what the motive would be to confiscate all the videos at the pentagon and why 93 had to crash sites?
" but you never actually say how the fire brought it down"-
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Again, not the point of the video. NIST wrote a huge report about WTC7, how you think I can cover it all in a couple of videos I do not know. The video shows the fact that firefighters on 911 specifically disagree with just about every contention truthers have about it and that by claiming it was a demolition the firefighters HAVE to be liars.
@TheSkepticalIdealist So I take it from your assertion that "the point is not to prove 911 was an inside job with this video" that you do think that 911 was an inside job?
No, I am saying that it is factually correct to say this video doesn't prove 911 was not an inside job, what it does so is show that one of the biggest "experts" in the truth movement is a shocking liar or so incompetent you cant tell the difference
I actually looked on the airlines website flight manifests back in 2002, and the real manifests were there and were public record. I looked over the names of all the crew and passengers and the "hijackers" were NOT on the lists of the airplanes that crashed on Sept. 11 2001. I recently tried to look at the manifests again and I was unable to see them. I wish I had saved them. There is a lot of propaganda out there now trying to cover the whole mess up, but I am not fooled.
The flight manifests were not available to the public so you did not look at them. The only reason David Ray Griffin has ever had for making the claim that there were no hijackers on the flight manifests was because he claimed the CNN victim lists were flight manifests.
Whats the point, you can just move the goal posts again. The point is the people you rely on for information, for the "truth" can be shown to be liars with not 5 minutes of a google search.
those "exhibits" are not official manifests. It's a shockwave/flash presentation. Manifests do not look like these. Notice that United's "manifest" looks identical to the American Airlines'. The manifests for each airline are, in reality, different in appearance. The final "proof" displayed at the end is not official. It's a slideshow. "Exhibit" is not synonymous with evidence. Information presented in this rebuttal is as equally unsubstantiated as the information it claims to dispute.
True or fase, the only reason why David Ray Griffin claimed that there were no hijackers on flight manifests was because he incorrectly claimed that CNN "victim lists" was a flight manifest? You claim that the court exhibits weren't manifests, true, i said it was official flight manifest information released by the airline. At no time has anyone had any reason to claim there were no hijackers on the flight manifests.
You don't need to trust politicians, truthers make out you either trust them or Bush, Rumsfeld etc. But they are a tiny fringe minority among the scientific and engineering community, they are evidently and demonstrably completely irrelevant. They also like to pretend the 911 firefighters agree with them, which is also complete lie. They are like Creationists, or 2012 conspiracy theorists or Rapture cultists.
Dude, do you think I WANTED to think our Government was even remotely involved or complicit in something like this? NOOO! I hate it ! I wish I could believe the Official story I really do. The trouble is, my government does SO many things that are so blatantly un-constitutional, they don't give a rats ass about who lives who dies as long as their money is getting taken from us and given to them and their constituents. We don't mean a thing so killing a bunch of us is par for the course
If you don't want to believe it then why do you trust people who lie to you and then not care when its show they are lies? I used be be a truther, but then I actually looked up their claims. You evidently have not.
So Griffin made a mistake, so what? You make a big deal out this as if it crushes Griffins central message that their are questions that never get answered and never will because it was an INSIDE JOB. You know it and WE know it.
So stop pretending to believe you got something on DRG because you don't. All you got is a discrepancy with a minor detail and are suggesting ALL of his presentation is like that. Naah,, NOT EVEN CLOSE dude. Keep up the fine work your doing for the Government
"So Griffin made a mistake, so what? You make a big deal out this as if it crushes Griffins central message"-
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No he didn;t make a mistake, he lied over and over and as far as I know he is still saying the same old debunked crap. it was laughable nonsence when he first said it and it is nonsence now.
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"So stop pretending to believe you got something on DRG because you don't. "-
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Apart from the fact that he is a liar, its okay, I know you don't care.
Like seeing the names on the passenger list that were shown on the BBC to be still alive. ESPECIALLY liked that passenger list that had nothing but Military personal some special forces and special ops team guys. Being a 6 year veteran and knowing what they can do. I find it VERY hard to believe they were all intimidated by some sand nigger with a box cutter when ONE of those guys could have taken two or three out by himself and stuffed the Box Cutter up their assholes EASILY.
"Like seeing the names on the passenger list that were shown on the BBC to be still alive."--
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You just don't learn, the "alive" hijackers have different names, different birthdates, different families and they looked different (quite important that one). Stop trusting truthers and look this up.
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And you claim EVERYONE on the plane was military? lol. Imagine you're a conspirator, why intentionally choose that flight so people can look back and say it makes them look guilty?
I have been researching this issue for many years and still don't know what happened or who was behind it. What I DO know is the issue has been effectively marginalized to the point where even the warren commission would be impressed. The numerous and unique first time precedents set on that day including a new way to do controlled demolitions using the skills of a typical arsonist, will be the questions those behind this event think they got away with but no one believes you anymore.
Whats a truther? 9/11 was obviously an inside job & if you cant see that & think Bin Laden in a cave pulled this off your fucking insane. If you think the Bin Laden tapes were real when CIA admitted to putting out fake tapes then your still fucking nuts , if you think building fires on a few floors can take down 3 buildings the same exact way at free fall speed then your still fucking crazy, if you think the CIA's invention al-Qaeda can make NORAD stand down or block FBI agents.YOUR A TERRORIST
And you're a lunatic and just accused the majority of people including 99% of the words engineers as being terrorists. Since you're obviously just here to troll I'm going to do you a favour and block you. No need to thank me.
Who cares about this meaningless bullshit all I know is that buildings 1,2, & 7 were beautiful demo jobs and everything surrounding 9/11 is either fishy or a lie let's wake up bush was evil and so is Obama ... Ron Paul is the only one who can fix this mess haha debunkers are the real conspiracy nuts you guys make me laugh with ur strawman bull
i mean i think it's important to bring to light all the facts you can, and when marginal errors are made, i can now not have to repeat them but it's ridiculous to call this a "debunking" as it attacks David Ray Griffin as portrays him as some non-credible nutcase, he has brought to light factual death blows that leave the official story with multiple mortal wounds.
DRG is a prioven liar, this video shows just one example. How can he honestly say there was no hijackers on the flight manifests? Why do you defend this man?
David R.Griffin wasn't really thinking hard, of course he can produce a chart of flights and claim there was no hijackers.So what does he do, he takes the victims list and claims that there are no hijackers on this list. Ok #1 does anyone think that these hijackers should be on the victims list even if they were the ones behind it all?If you say yes you must be thinking that the man in the VT Shooting who killed many people and killed himself is also a victim. 20 dislikes maybe only seen 55 secs
The ironic thing about 911 is: on the internet, I can't find any sites which give the "official government" version. All I see ARE the alternate ideas!
I admit: I have NOT made any effort beyond google. Still, I'd expect at least ONE website which gives the US government's version of this event.
Why not check wtc7lies, 911myths, Debunking 911 Myths, Debunking 911, Screw Loose Change, Conspiracy Science, the James Randi 911 Conspiracy forum and a ton of blogs. There's also hundreds of papers published in legitimate respected journals about the collapses none of which support the 911 conspiracies. You need to look harder, but also realise that for many high up truthers this is about earning money like Alex Jones and Richard Gage so they will spend money on advertising.,
@TheSkepticalIdealist I thumbed this post of yours up. I admit: I put practically zero effort into searching for websites that support the official gov't story. (That is in no way an insult to myself or to others - we're all time-constrained.) In fairness to myself, the internet seems heavily swamped in favor of alternate 911 stories, whether or not they are conspiracy stories, so it really did become hard to find. I'd start reading a site, believing it to be the official story, but it'd turn
I personally don't think much about who caused 911, because, frankly, unlike, say, anthropogenic global warming (which is fact), or ending factory farming, or reducing world overpopulation, or freeing tortured animals from laboratories, or fighting for UFO disclosure and pot legalization, 911 is a past event. We can't undo it. But we CAN do something about the other things I've mentioned.
@TheSkepticalIdealist Thanks. I tell people: "I basically believe the government story on 911, but I am open to other opinions." My sensitivities lie with "who is oppressed more", and my endlessly trying to decide: how MUCH free speech should I allow someone who disagrees with me.
Yes - absolute truth DOES exist, and since there isn't a god, there ARE tests of SELF-CONSISTENCY for it.
The GW-deniers have NEVER been oppressed. THEY are the ones who have silenced scientists.
@TheSkepticalIdealist Whereas I CAN feel some sympathy for 911 truthers, who have NOT gotten an equal voice (well, equal to the GW-deniers, not saying that they deserve an equal voice to scientists and engineers) in mainstream media, although, as I said, they seem to clog up the internet.
I'm stealing and butchering quote I read elsewhere, but with truthers and science its not that they aren't allowed to play, its that they don't even show up on the playing field. You are right though they do litter the internet with their rubbish contributing myths about 911 such as the one my video address'. I have no sympathy for them, since I used to be one and I now realise they a just a bunch of incompetents liars and lunatics.
@TheSkepticalIdealist I don't blame you for having no sympathy for the 911"truthers", but I'll still give them some pity. I am ALREADY having absolutely NO sympathy for many OTHER groups of people, most notably, anyone who votes for Republicans or Democrats in the USA. I don't care if they are a soldier serving overseas in Iraq & Afghanistan - if they vote for Demopubs, they deserve NO food/water/medicine. Life-and-death matters mean NOTHING to them compared to..
@deskset24 ...the all "important" "noble" "cause" of giving some billionaire corporate CEO another million dollars in stolen unearned bonuses for stealing from the government & taxpayers. THAT is the single MOST important "cause" to these subhumans and anyone who votes for them. They do not have the mental capacity to compute the consequences of actions. They would LOVE to be on an airplane slamming into a building. It's just atoms moving around in different ways to them. Has no meaning.
@TheSkepticalIdealist The only part of Zeitgeist the Movie that I've seen is the first half hour dealing with the evolution of religion. THAT part I found compelling. But, since I have done ZERO hardcore historical research in peer-reviewed history journals, I have NO way to judge whether they made up EVERYTHING, or whether they take real facts but make ridiculous implications "A implies B" from them in logically inconsistent ways.
The rest of the movie I could tell was annoying conspiracy..
- "The only part of Zeitgeist the Movie that I've seen is the first half hour dealing with the evolution of religion. THAT part I found compelling."
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Its wrong, but not as wrong as the other two parts because you can make a convincing case for the conclusion that there is nothing truly original in the Bible, in my opinion, without resorting to the shameless exaggerations they go to. You should be very suspicious of anything proven liars and incompetents tell you.
@TheSkepticalIdealist Nice to know the religion part of Zeitgeist (Z) is not as wrong as the other 2 parts.
But, how do you know it is wrong at all? You don't know the truth about it, either. It's one thing if you said it: "I have doubts about any theory, but the Z-theory of the origin of christianity is as good as any other theory." Saying Z-theory (or any) is wrong implies you "know" the "right" one.
I really agree with Bill Maher's edict at the end of Religulous: the religion of DOUBT.
There's been plenty of analysis of the whole film by many people. I don't like talking about it as it presumes its original though, the religion section is the most original part the 911 section is basically one big copy and paste edit job from many conspiracy films, the same with most of Part 3 which also just repeats things conspiracy theroists have said. Part 1 however is based off fringe author "Acharya S"
So, I would check for criticisms of Part 1 ConspiracyScience . com's Zeitgeist articles which goes through the whole film. The commentary there is by no means all there is, in fact the 911 criticisms could be expanded greatly but there's still more than enough there I think.
I hate this small comment sections! As far as Part 1 goes, the point is that the Bible is no more "inspired" than any other sacred texts. We can see MANY parallels of myths in the Bible and that of other religions. Without trying to fit all the details into 200 remaining characters, what Part 1 exaggerates these parallels and twists the truth in order to make the claims it does. There ARE parallels between Jesus and other myths, just not quite like they claim.
@TheSkepticalIdealist Not to prolong this conversation, but, I AM curious: what is your belief or knowledge on whether Jesus actually existed? There exist scholars, not just Zeitgeist, who claim Jesus never existed.
Again - I really have no strong opinion on the matter.
I know one Jesus who existed: my 2nd elbow surgeon was named Jesus. Jesus Medina.
"what is your belief or knowledge on whether Jesus actually existed? There exist scholars.. who claim Jesus never existed."
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There are no respected scholars that I know that think Jesus never existed, but I always say that I don't believe the BIBLICAL Jesus existed. IE. THAT CHARACTER is clearly a myth. There were plenty of contenders at the time for who he could have been based on. The ZG claim is that it was 100% pure myth 100% totally stolen from older myths about the sun.
@TheSkepticalIdealist So, why did people build up this incredible myth around this real ordinary human being named Jesus? What did he "offer" that others hadn't? Was he a good magician? A good salesman?
@deskset24 I'm pretty sure that the real ordinary man that was Jesus could actually walk on water and do miracles. People just didn't realize it until after he died. Do you know the story "There Is No Doubt About It" by H. C. Andersen?
@deskset24 Allright, I take it you don't know that story, because you're misunderstanding my point. Jesus never did the things he is claimed to have done. But stories afterwards made it seem like he did.
Well, if you put stock in the bible, he was the son of God. That's probably gotta count for something.
I mean, if one is the son of the living God, then he's not ordinary.
So I'm wondering, what's Jesus have to do with 9/11 any ways? Seems like there isn't much of a connection, unless you're thinking that day was part of the end times predictions.
The first Zeitgeist is supposed to be about "myth" (IRONY!!) and exposing some of the greatest myths in our society, but it also says that the NWO want the myth of religion to continue to control us. Basically, its relevant (according to Zeitgeist logic) because they think of Part 1 as a conspiracy and Zeitgeist is a conspiracy film
@stbays No, I do not put stock in the bible. Bible=koran=talmud=Mayan prophecies = bullshit.
Only subhumans believe that crap but not AGW.
That does not mean I rule out all supernatural phenomena. e.g. Psychic power exists to a degree, but not to a degree that any human can control, in spite of what any supposed tv psychic claims. Aliens DO have the high tech to visit earth and do things we can't. The point is: science and technology are the path to all these things.
That's your right to think. Good thing it doesn't make it true. People who believe in the bible are in fact the same as you and anyone else. They just believe in something they can not prove.
Me, I have my own beliefs and they are more complicated then I care to get into.
@stbays I know you don't have the mental capacity, because you've never done a hard day of work in your life, to comprehend the enormous difference between taking side on a conjecture, say, believing the twin primes conjecture is false, with no proof at all, just as a hunch, yet being able to be swayed either way, versus ARROGANTLY ABSOLUTELY believing something for which there exists no proof (god), building up massive tax-sucking wastes of religions around it, and murdering others for it.
My gosh I have no idea where I should begin with this comment of yours.
You're some how assuming because I believe in God that I haven't worked hard in my life? How do those two things even go together. Most religious people work very hard to help others. Not that I believe you gotta accept God to help others. I've just found religious people have more incentive.
Really you're just tossing insults. How is that helpful to anyone?
@stbays I didn't know I was tossing insults! How was I to know?
Just like GW Bush didn't know there were no WMDs in Iraq or that Hussein had no connection to Al-Qaeda,
yet millions of subhuman religionists voted for him.
I definitely do NOT want to insult you. But, if you expect me to respect everything you say, then I have to expect you to respect everything anyone says about anything. That IS the first rule of all logic.
" I know you don't have the mental capacity, because you've never done a hard day of work in your life"
That looked rather insulting, especially since I've made an effort to work hard every day of my life, as no one expected it of me. I was billed as not being capable and I wanted to prove them wrong and let them know my disabilities do not define who I am as a person.
I respect everyone, even those I don't agree with.
@stbays Well, if bible thumpers and I are "equal" in proving what we believe, then so are police officers and detectives and believers that OJ Simpson murdered anybody. All our beliefs are equally unproved and unprovable.
@TheSkepticalIdealist .. theories. In general, it IS true: countries often do get one bunch of poor suckers to fight and kill another bunch of poor suckers, for the benefit of the rich. But, that cannot explain ALL wars.
But, I disagree with the details regarding their conspiracies. I mean, *I* am part of the conspiracy that caused 911, because *I* didn't exactly DO anything or go out of my way to prevent 911, either.
Anyway, I never bothered to see the rest of the film.
Anyway, never mind all I said. Point is: each of us tries to come up with a self-consistent ALGORITHM for how much free speech to allow an enemy, whether we openly realize it (like *I* do) or not (and most are too stupid to even realize it)
Good job on this. I never even knew that anyone thought there were no terrorists on planes on 9-11. Zeitgeist puts forth crap that is easily proven wrong. None of the real questions I have are even brought up by that crap movie. You cant blame anyone for not trusting our corrupt government though. The anti-bush crowd that was helped by almost every TV station is to blame for all of the anti-US lies taking hold. Remember the "hate Bush" stuff?
"Oh they know what Thermite is but "What the heck is Thermate?""
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eh? Thermate is just thermite with added sulphur, you can make it at home. You act like its like some kind of black ops secret weapon no one has ever heard about.
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Also, please deal with the video instead of going off topic, Why cant any of you truthers stick to the point? David Ray Griffin had no reason to say that hijackers werent on flight manifests, CNN victim lists were not flight manifests.
"the substance found ALL AROUND Manhattan (Thermate) "
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And FYI, they found no such thing in the dust. I know you believe everything your truther leaders tell you so I know you dont care about finding out why.
Thank you very much! I'm pretty frustrated myself by people who believe everything zeitgeist says. The documentary is flawed in a lot of ways. Thanks for pointing that out.
THE TRUE NORTH AMERICANS DESERVE RESPECT... UNFORTUNATELY ARE REDUCED THE SAME CONDITION OF THE OTHER SUBJUGATED SOCIETY...
THEY ARE UNDER THE YOKE OF THE GLOBAL ELITE...COMPOSED BY ANOTHER PORTION OF NORTH AMERICAN POPULATION AND ALL CONTROL STATIONS IN NORTH AMERICAN SOCIETY ARE OCCUPIED BY
Most real debunking issues have been surrounding religion. This is VERY interesting.. Thanks for sharing. Nice to at least get an idea of ANY real argument... I am not sure if I believe yet there is one.. but I appreciate a refreshing viewpoint!
nice...lol, i especially like how fast the "paperwork" gets flashed across the screen and then you give us a "close-up" of the names...oh, its SOOO clear now, lol...you're ridiculous.....besides, i go by VIDEO EVIDENCE...not paprework and graphics that can be FABRICATED by anyone......nice try, have a nice day!
nice...lol, i especially like how fast the "paperwork" gets flashed across the screen and then you give us a "close-up" of the names...oh, its SOOO clear now, lol...you're ridiculous.....besides, i go by VIDEO EVIDENCE...not paprework and graphics that can be FABRICATED by anyone......nice try, have a nice day!
Good job missing the point of the video. Griffin lied, the CNN lists are not Flight Manifests and never claimed to be so, that is what the "hijackers not on flight manifests" claim is based on and its nonsense.
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And you can google those lists I show in the video and read it for yourself, but I see you have no intention on actually understanding the point of the video I know you dont care,
Whose lies should we be concerned with, a theology professor or the US gov? Where are the flight 'envelopes'? How about a Pentagon vid with a plane in it? Ex-CIA admitted making fake OBL videos, so where is the proof OBL was involved? Where is a finalized list of hijackers if 6 or 7 turned up alive? Why won't the gov. challenge/refute thermite findings?? How do entire planes vaporize, engines, fuselage, etc. while paper passports / DL's survive?
@kc0696 - "Whose lies should we be concerned with, a theology professor or the US gov" - Why arent you concerned that the people telling you the government are lying, are lying to you? - "Where are the flight 'envelopes'?" - What reason do we have to think there were no hijackers on the flight manifests? - "Ex-CIA admitted making fake OBL videos" - No they didnt, read the context of that story it doesnt say what you want. And no hijackers have been shown to be alive.
"Why won't the gov. challenge/refute thermite findings??"
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Because there's nothing but a tiny fringe group claiming thermite, there is no controversy to respond to. No legitimate peer review, no notable scientists. They dont perform competent tests (like burning the chip in an inert atmosphere) and there are tests for thermite labs do every day across the country for the policein arson cases that Jones didnt do. They get definitive results, Jones doesnt want definitive results.
Classic...'a tiny fringe group'. Haha. That's what they said about the truth movement 6yrs ago...and here you are will all your cyber-spook traitor buddies working day and night to stop it. Ooops.
What is funny is, the traitors of old didn't have the convenience and autonomy of the internet to hide behind, they had to peddle their BS in person. You guys take it to a whole new level: TRAITOR + COWARD = SUPER SCUM.
"and here you are will all your cyber-spook traitor buddies working day and night to stop it. Ooops."
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Well now you've progressed into a full youtube troll. Good one. You arent even arguing any points anymore. Before I therefore block you (gave you lots of chances) I will point out that I posted these videos back in 2009 and made them for the same reason people still make anti-Creationist videos/websites. Its not because they secretly think Creationism is true and are scared.
-"How do entire planes vaporize, engines, fuselage, etc. while paper passports / DL's survive?"
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So if the passport was fake, then what about all the other perishable stuff that fell from the plane like airline itinerary, a personal letter, plane seats, life jackets,seats from the plane and then of course lots of other plane debris. Do you even believe there was a plane? do you think black ops ninjas went around planting all the plane debris all over the place in broad daylight?
Nice big circle. OK, forget the stuff that was there that shouldn't have been, I'm asking YOU to explain how stuff that should have been there wasn't - two 6 TON steel and titanium engines, fuselage, wings, seats, landing gear, etc. There is simply no way ANY crash at ANY speed can vaporize a plane.
We can climb right over your wall of ignorance...no matter how tall.
-"two 6 TON steel and titanium engines, fuselage, wings, seats, "
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I said they found lots of parts of the plane including landing gear and I mentioned seats, life jackets and pieces of the fuselage and at least one wheel. So you dont believe there was a plane that hit the WTC at all? You believe a black ops team of ninjas planted all that stuff in broad daylight in front of thousands of witness?
I guess if you say it or the US gov. it HAS to be true. Well a pic says a thousand words...and no debris at the Pentagon or Shanksville means no planes. As for WTC, seial stamped parts would confirm plane ID's but NONE have been presented.
As for pics of the rubble: where is the 250 acres of carpet, miles of cables, thousands of vending machines, desks, refigerators, toilets, file cabinets? If you have pics with rubble other than steel and dust, love to see 'em.
"I guess if you say it or the US gov. it HAS to be true. "
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Yes thats right all the first responders and police and clean up workers that talked about debris are all lying and none of that stuff existed despite the fact that we have lots of picture of the stuff and afterwards when they are cleaning it up.
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"where is the 250 acres of carpet, miles of cables, thousands of vending machine"
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Good god, we're getting shockingly close to "the towers never existed".
Are you talking about Pentagon / Shanksville first repsonders who said there was no sign of a plane crash? Are you denying THOSE people exist or do you just hear/read/believe what you want?? We saw the small scraps of 'debris' but you FAIL to explain how things like ENGINES, SEATS, WINGS, FUSELAGE and oh yeah BODIES that are found at EVERY OTHER CRASH SITE were no where to be found on 9/11.
Maybe truther-ninjas cleaned it all up over night to frame the gov??
Serieal stamped parts confirm the EXACT ID, and the flight envelops would serve doubly so...but NEITHER have been provided. Believe what you want but the crashes at WTC were DEFINITELY not the A A11 and UA175 were were told.
Logic 101: If the gov. story was so true and provable as you clearly believe...what kind of fucking loser would spend EVERY DAY defending it?
Answer: no one would unless of course it's a HUGE LIE that needs defending.
"Believe what you want but the crashes at WTC were DEFINITELY not the A A11 and UA175 were were told."
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But you also believe there was no plane debris and all the pictures and witness' of the SUBSTANTIAL plane debris are liars or dont exist and/.or the debris planted by those pesky black ops ninjas that somehow managed to dump lots of heavy plane debris and scatter cushions, luggage, life jackets all over the place with no one noticing.
-": If the gov. story was so true and provable as you clearly believe...what kind of fucking loser would spend EVERY DAY defending it?"
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If truthers cared about what was true you would think they would care when they tell easily demonstrable lies. Truthers have been wrong about damn near everything back to front since day 1. This video shows Griffin lying, you dont have to think 911 wasnt an inside job to see that he was wrong.
WTF does it prove if the gov. shows you some papers they call 'official flight manifests' and the alleged hijackers names are on them? Would that prove the names weren't just patsies/assets to some state sponsor??
Your ENTIRE case is built on trusting the gov. but like the passport 'found' on the street or the backpack; these are HILARIOUS INSULTS to anyone with half a brain and prove an INSIDE JOB more than they do a 'surprise attack' by 'rogue Arabs'.
No your entire case of the hijackers not on flight manifests is the lie by Griffin telling you that there are no hijackers on flight manifests and calling CNN's victim lists manifests. Again, we have no reason to think there were no hijackers on flight manifests. Absolutely none.
This thread is funny...it seems literally impossible for you government cheerleaders to answer a simple, simple question.
Maybe because you know the answer...we are to believe the planes and their contents (Pentagon and Shanks) totally vaporized. This is a true example of how stupid the US government really takes people to be.
".it seems literally impossible for you government cheerleaders to answer a simple, simple question."
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Huh? I dont know what question it is you think I havent answered but I have asked repeatedly what reason truthers have to believe that there were no hiajckers on flight manifests besides David Ray Griffins continued lies about CNNs victim lists being flight manifests. I guess you truthers see what you want to see.
-"How do entire planes vaporize, engines, fuselage, etc. while paper passports / DL's survive?"
So do YOU really believe the planes VAPORIZED?
With some basic common sense - clearly asking a lot - this is not only impossible but also comical, just like steel structures completely dismembering themselves from fire or the nation's defense HQ completely undefended after a full scale attack is underway for almost an hour.
Thats kc0696's strawman not mine. He seems confused however. First we were talking about the WTC, then he started talking about Flight 77 and U93. Both very different impacts.
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"With some basic common sense - clearly asking a lot - this is not only impossible but also comical,"
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Excuse me and this diversion is fun n'all but would you mind addressing my previous post to you?
Oh man, i lol'd so hard. I was totally convinced when i first watched Zeitgeist, then after a day or so I began to doubt it and the peoples sources. Also because of Penn & Teller's Bullshit episode on conspiracy theorists, they all turn out to be total nutjobs.
This was the icing on the cake, thanks for showing this.
The point made is that in light of the evidence, the manifests with the names of the 'terrorists' are frauds. So I think Griffin is well justified in citing the CNN list as supporting evidence.
That isn't the point, griffin claimed that there were no hijackers on the manifests. He doesnt say in light of the evidence we should be suspicious about the manifests. He says they arent there.
There is NOTHING gained by quoting the CNN lists, the fact that the terrorists aren't there really tell you nothing. We already know the Boston Globe published seating positions which did show the terrorists, yet Griffin ignores it and instead calls CNN's victim lists flight manifests which they were never intended to be in the first place that said they dont consider hijackers victims and so dont include them.The CNN lists are only evidence of how Griffin gets it wrong
For the time being, as I've said, I accept your position (or at least the fact that in a formal debate, it would be superior to my position.) The reason for my doing so is that I have not yet had the time to read Griffin's book. However, even if you are right about the flight manifests, that does not therefore mean that the 9/11 truth movement is invalid. It relies on cumulative evidence.
1. If you find a reason to defend Griffin on this point let me know.
2. It doesn't invalidate all truther claims, of course. But this isn't the only claim Griffin has gotten so badly wrong.
I will say that when I was a truther however I believed that 911 Truth surely couldn't be wrong about EVERYTHING. But don't rule that out....seriously...
Griffin clarifies this in New Pearl Harbor Revisited.
You see, the CNN lists were all anybody had available to them, and there are so many contradictions with the alleged "manifests" in "Perfect Soldiers" and the initial FBI account that the "manifests" are immediately suspect, and we have no reason to consider them as evidence of anything. Read "New Pearl Harbor Revisited" for more. Also go to 911debunkers (DOT) blogspot (DOT) com
No, there is absolutely no reason to say there were no hijackers on the flight manifests.
Griffin claimed the CNN lists were "flight manifests" but they weren't, he based the entire claim off of that.
If you want to claim that all flight manifest information currently released are lies that's one thing, but to say that the flight manifests do not show hijackers you are simply WRONG.
From a footnote in Griffin's chapter on the hijackers:
"Attempts to get flight manifests directly from the airlines were futile. For example, when one researcher requested the final flight manifest for Flight 11, American Airlines replied: "At the time of the incidents we released the actual passenger manifests to the appropriate government agencies who in turn released certain information to the media. These lists were published in many major periodicals and are"...
... now considered public record. At this time we are not in a position to release further information" (e-mail from Elias Davidsson, September 9, 2004).
So we can say with confidence that Griffin cited the CNN victims list because that was the only thing available at the time, since the airlines refused to offer them and instead directed him and his fellow researchers to those lists.
You are still trying to dance around the error Griffin made.
Griffin had no reason to call the CNN lists flight manifests. There is no way you could look at them and glean any information from it that suggested there were no hijackers aboard. He even says you can go read the "flight manifests" at CNN, but you cant because were never meant to be flight manifests.
Outside your own incredulity there is no reason to say there are no hijackers on the flight manifests.
[continued]... Griffin also ignored the Boston Globe which published seating positions of Flight 11 two days after 911 which did contain the suspected hijackers.
Why did he ignore that, and then refer you to the CNN's victim list and then declared unequivocally that no hijackers were on the manifests?
As recently as Nov 2009 Griffin was STILL claiming "no Arab names whatsoever - were on the passenger manifests of the flights". How can you possibly justify that?
I will read all of NPH and NPHR and get back to you. I don't believe that Griffin made as gross errors as you accuse him of. The footnote was to a very short section of the chapter on the hijackers, that I looked up via the index (I only got the book a few days ago). I trust that Griffin provides much more evidence that the official hijackers story is false, and that the flight manifests were doctored. However, I concede that for the time being, you've won the debate.
The footnote about the flight manifests is one of the most often repeated claims on 911, and something he was saying only a few months ago as if it was some kind of 100% confirmed fact.
The fact is this claim is based on a falsehood. Griffin says that the flight manifests show no hijackers, when you go to check his source you see he is calling the CNN victim lists a flight manifest and that this is what he is basing the entire claim off of.
Just a note to anyone reading the exchange between me and kkMonterey. . .
As you can see after all that and he still couldnt admit that David Ray Griffin was wrong when he said that the hijackers werent on the flight manifests.
He hasn't researched anything. He has only tried pulling together micro-segments of nonsense in order to "debunk" what is clearly the greatest inside job in our country's history. This is clearly "made for morons"... If he really wanted to "debunk" the 9/11 TRUTH, he'd be best off just shutting up and letting professional shillers do their work...
Sure. Could you provide for me the ORIGINAL manifest? That'd be great - thanks. In the mean-time, I will say this - it sounds to me like you have a personal issue with Griffin. That's ok.. You obviously have no data, no argument and not a leg to stand on.. So what the heck - why not just discredit and slander people instead of dealing with the TRUTH (which is so pathetically obvious to anyone with a brain and an open/unprogrammed mind)...
Griffin has absolutely no basis for saying the hijackers werent on it. The information from the manifests we do have including the Terry McDermott lists contain the hijackers.
Why did Griffin call the CNN's victim lists "flight manifests" but ignore the Boston Globe?
You're funny - it's like watching - say - the Steelers win the Super Bowl.. Then, while watching a replay of it, you hear an announcer misspeak.. So you claim that the Super Bowl never even happened and the Steelers never won because an announcer misspoke..
you can block me all you want you stupid asshole.. i'm talking about FACT. not your insecurity you bullshit artist. why don't you get a fucking clue and pull your head out of your ass!?!?!!?
At the end of the video they show you a copy of the seating map for the planes, Look in general how empty the planes are.
DonJuan4076 1 week ago
@DonJuan4076
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", Look in general how empty the planes are."
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Srsly? So they could fake the manifests but not fake the amount of people on the plane?
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 days ago
sooo big shot, ill give u somethin to do with the rest of ur day, lil scraps 4 the troll, y did the pentagon seize videos? n the molten metal? molten metal up to 6 weeks after?
kakboi6688846993 2 weeks ago
@kakboi6688846993
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Since I cant possibly explain everything in one YT comment I'll give you a small response. Melted metal is fully expected in normal fires. Melted steel is full expected to be reported in normal fires. You said the towers collapsed at free fall speed, but their collapse times were longer than free fall which makes your claim simply wrong. Now, you claim Im trolling yet you are the one coming here and making numerous claims expecting full answers in a YT comment.
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 weeks ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist yeah boi! what bout that shit they found thats only in bombs or whatever?
kakboi6688846993 2 weeks ago
@kakboi6688846993
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" that shit they found thats only in bombs or whatever?"
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Wow, maybe you should come back when you know what your own conspiracy theories are. FYI, they found nothing thats only found in bombs.
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"what is free fall speed?"-
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Since you claimed the towers fell at free fall speed, why don't you know what it is? You just like parroting other people?
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 weeks ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist when did i claim that! y dont u kno what it is!
kakboi6688846993 2 weeks ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist what is free fall speed?
kakboi6688846993 2 weeks ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist broccoli bitch
kakboi6688846993 2 weeks ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist hey tard boy go watch 9/11 explosive evidence
kakboi6688846993 2 weeks ago
@kakboi6688846993
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"go watch 9/11 explosive evidence"-
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Seen it, exactly what do you think is so special? You said the towers fell at free fall speed, they didnt. You said molten metal was suspicious, its expected. You said melted steel was suspicious, reports are expected.
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 weeks ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist y did 7 fall, not jus fall cave in, when "nothing" happened to it?
kakboi6688846993 2 weeks ago
@kakboi6688846993
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"y did 7 fall, not jus fall cave in, when "nothing" happened to it?"
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Nothing happened? It had a huge gouge in yhe south side, 7 hours of fully involved fire unfought, firefighters observed it leaning, bulging, groaning, creaking and thinks cracking and falling and thats why they all thought it was going to collapse/.
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 weeks ago
I don't think that the author's unsubstantiated photocopies or the FBI's diagrams introduced at the Massaoui trial are evidence of original manifests. Were the manifests presented to any of the inquiries? If not, why not? And if they exist, who has them and when did they get them, and what might be the problem of releasing them?
FirstUsedBooks 3 weeks ago
@FirstUsedBooks
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The official passenger manifests have never been officially released and remain the property of the airlines. The fact remains that there was NEVER a REASON for the claim that there were "no hijackers names on the flight manifests". That David R.Griffin falsely told you the Victim lists were manifests, they were not and did not include hijackers on purpose and seating arrangements for Flight 77 obtained from the airline by Boston Globe 2 days after 911 do show hijacker names.
TheSkepticalIdealist 3 weeks ago
@Hotters70603EXL i forgot something, who cares.
Pwn3dbyth3n00b 2 months ago
@Hotters70603EXL
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Look, lay off the weed. Im not interested in talking to someone that keeps talking like someone that's stoned out of their minds
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 months ago
@Hotters70603EXL
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Any reason why you keep saying whats up my nigga? You going to talk properly so we can have a discussion or you beggin for a block?
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 months ago
The U.S. Gov encourarages misinfo For years,there was no verifiable evidence that the alleged hijackers were on the pass manifests as the US gov refused to release these docs By not releasing the U.S. Gov encouraged spec that the hijackers names did not show up on the pass lists. Misinfo benefits the US Gov and its cover-up of the 9/11 crimes.
HardcoreJungFunk 5 months ago
@HardcoreJungFunk
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What reason do you have to believe there were no hijackers on the flight manifests? As i said in the video David Ray Griffin one and only reason for saying that is because he falsely claimed the CNN victim lists were flight manifests.
TheSkepticalIdealist 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Another one is if you do not believe my theory you trust the government 100% which is a fallacy at best and they just do not see that.
warlord2080 5 months ago
Yea I actually did see the list on the airlines website. They at least used to post them by law. The policy must have changed for obvious reasons. So it is not a conspiracy to think that the government would pull a false flag. They do it all the time. It is very common to do these types of things in warefare. It is not in the realm of fantasy to think that that the shadowy NWO would pull something off like this. They screwed up so many times in this flalse flag, it is ridiculously obvious.
megaohmz 5 months ago
@megaohmz
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So you're saying they are so incompetent they decided to release all the evidence that would expose them beacuse of "the law". Maybe it was an NWO intern at AA that did it, right? o_O Considering as how you're the only person who has ever claimed to have seen this list and that David Ray Griffin falsely claimed the CNN's victim list was a flight manifest who is the original source for this claim never claimed to either you're either lying or mistaken. Im guessing mistaken.
TheSkepticalIdealist 5 months ago
@megaohmz
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(continued)-
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". They screwed up so many times in this flalse flag, it is ridiculously obvious. "-
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Yea, according to you guys they are complete genius', with god like amounts of luck while at the same time being absurdly stupid, just so people like you can point it out later but somehow no one else sees it but you.
TheSkepticalIdealist 5 months ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist This is one of the weaker pieces of evidence and its no wonder why debunkers choose this and other things like the pull it comment to focus on instead things like why flight 93 had two crash sites why the videos were confiscated at the pentagon what the method of collapse was of building 7.
anewlow23 3 months ago
@anewlow23
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I made 2 videos of WTC7, check before you run your mouth off. Also, its ALL been addressed hundreds of times in a hundred different ways. Dont claim ignorance because you're too lazy to check. I chose this claim because its so obviously wrong in so many different ways, the point is not to prove that 911 was not an inside job with this video, just that truther "experts" like David Ray Griffin are liars or so incompetent you cant tell the difference. Apparently you dont care.
TheSkepticalIdealist 3 months ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist I did check your channel and you never really go in depth about the method by which building 7 came down you just state that it was on fire and you list testimony from firefighters stating that it was on fire but you never actually say how the fire brought it down and how they could have done so at freefall acceleration. You also did not answer my other questions about what the motive would be to confiscate all the videos at the pentagon and why 93 had to crash sites?
anewlow23 3 months ago
@anewlow23
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" but you never actually say how the fire brought it down"-
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Again, not the point of the video. NIST wrote a huge report about WTC7, how you think I can cover it all in a couple of videos I do not know. The video shows the fact that firefighters on 911 specifically disagree with just about every contention truthers have about it and that by claiming it was a demolition the firefighters HAVE to be liars.
TheSkepticalIdealist 3 months ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist tell us how the towers all fell at freefall speed from burning only an hour , its impossible
TheBossman448 2 months ago
@TheBossman448
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They didnt fall at free fall speed and that is not the point of the video. Do you not care that David Ray Griffin is such a terrible liar?
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 months ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist So I take it from your assertion that "the point is not to prove 911 was an inside job with this video" that you do think that 911 was an inside job?
anewlow23 3 months ago
@anewlow23
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"that you do think that 911 was an inside job?"
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No, I am saying that it is factually correct to say this video doesn't prove 911 was not an inside job, what it does so is show that one of the biggest "experts" in the truth movement is a shocking liar or so incompetent you cant tell the difference
TheSkepticalIdealist 3 months ago
I actually looked on the airlines website flight manifests back in 2002, and the real manifests were there and were public record. I looked over the names of all the crew and passengers and the "hijackers" were NOT on the lists of the airplanes that crashed on Sept. 11 2001. I recently tried to look at the manifests again and I was unable to see them. I wish I had saved them. There is a lot of propaganda out there now trying to cover the whole mess up, but I am not fooled.
megaohmz 6 months ago
@megaohmz
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The flight manifests were not available to the public so you did not look at them. The only reason David Ray Griffin has ever had for making the claim that there were no hijackers on the flight manifests was because he claimed the CNN victim lists were flight manifests.
TheSkepticalIdealist 5 months ago
@pudsylive
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Funny, I have just googled and found several cameras. its never enough for you people. Do you know what moving the goal posts means?
TheSkepticalIdealist 6 months ago
@pudsylive
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Whats the point, you can just move the goal posts again. The point is the people you rely on for information, for the "truth" can be shown to be liars with not 5 minutes of a google search.
TheSkepticalIdealist 6 months ago
those "exhibits" are not official manifests. It's a shockwave/flash presentation. Manifests do not look like these. Notice that United's "manifest" looks identical to the American Airlines'. The manifests for each airline are, in reality, different in appearance. The final "proof" displayed at the end is not official. It's a slideshow. "Exhibit" is not synonymous with evidence. Information presented in this rebuttal is as equally unsubstantiated as the information it claims to dispute.
xJMPx 7 months ago
@xJMPx
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True or fase, the only reason why David Ray Griffin claimed that there were no hijackers on flight manifests was because he incorrectly claimed that CNN "victim lists" was a flight manifest? You claim that the court exhibits weren't manifests, true, i said it was official flight manifest information released by the airline. At no time has anyone had any reason to claim there were no hijackers on the flight manifests.
TheSkepticalIdealist 7 months ago
@xJMPx
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Still waiting for you to answer the question.
TheSkepticalIdealist 7 months ago
@MARMARR1
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You don't need to trust politicians, truthers make out you either trust them or Bush, Rumsfeld etc. But they are a tiny fringe minority among the scientific and engineering community, they are evidently and demonstrably completely irrelevant. They also like to pretend the 911 firefighters agree with them, which is also complete lie. They are like Creationists, or 2012 conspiracy theorists or Rapture cultists.
TheSkepticalIdealist 8 months ago
Dude, do you think I WANTED to think our Government was even remotely involved or complicit in something like this? NOOO! I hate it ! I wish I could believe the Official story I really do. The trouble is, my government does SO many things that are so blatantly un-constitutional, they don't give a rats ass about who lives who dies as long as their money is getting taken from us and given to them and their constituents. We don't mean a thing so killing a bunch of us is par for the course
Ultramediacorp 9 months ago
@Ultramediacorp
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If you don't want to believe it then why do you trust people who lie to you and then not care when its show they are lies? I used be be a truther, but then I actually looked up their claims. You evidently have not.
TheSkepticalIdealist 9 months ago
So Griffin made a mistake, so what? You make a big deal out this as if it crushes Griffins central message that their are questions that never get answered and never will because it was an INSIDE JOB. You know it and WE know it.
So stop pretending to believe you got something on DRG because you don't. All you got is a discrepancy with a minor detail and are suggesting ALL of his presentation is like that. Naah,, NOT EVEN CLOSE dude. Keep up the fine work your doing for the Government
Ultramediacorp 9 months ago
@Ultramediacorp
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"So Griffin made a mistake, so what? You make a big deal out this as if it crushes Griffins central message"-
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No he didn;t make a mistake, he lied over and over and as far as I know he is still saying the same old debunked crap. it was laughable nonsence when he first said it and it is nonsence now.
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"So stop pretending to believe you got something on DRG because you don't. "-
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Apart from the fact that he is a liar, its okay, I know you don't care.
TheSkepticalIdealist 9 months ago
Like seeing the names on the passenger list that were shown on the BBC to be still alive. ESPECIALLY liked that passenger list that had nothing but Military personal some special forces and special ops team guys. Being a 6 year veteran and knowing what they can do. I find it VERY hard to believe they were all intimidated by some sand nigger with a box cutter when ONE of those guys could have taken two or three out by himself and stuffed the Box Cutter up their assholes EASILY.
Ultramediacorp 9 months ago
@Ultramediacorp
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"Like seeing the names on the passenger list that were shown on the BBC to be still alive."--
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You just don't learn, the "alive" hijackers have different names, different birthdates, different families and they looked different (quite important that one). Stop trusting truthers and look this up.
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And you claim EVERYONE on the plane was military? lol. Imagine you're a conspirator, why intentionally choose that flight so people can look back and say it makes them look guilty?
TheSkepticalIdealist 9 months ago
@Ultramediacorp your macho rhetoric does you no favours. I really find the violence endemic in the US very disturbing. you are all maniacs
thisisyourwakeup 7 months ago
I have been researching this issue for many years and still don't know what happened or who was behind it. What I DO know is the issue has been effectively marginalized to the point where even the warren commission would be impressed. The numerous and unique first time precedents set on that day including a new way to do controlled demolitions using the skills of a typical arsonist, will be the questions those behind this event think they got away with but no one believes you anymore.
Ultramediacorp 9 months ago
Failed video Lmao.
MrSiiKez 9 months ago
@MrSiiKez
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Excuse me?
TheSkepticalIdealist 9 months ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
Zeitgeist is fact.
MrSiiKez 9 months ago
@MrSiiKez
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Apparently truth and facts mean different things to you people.
TheSkepticalIdealist 9 months ago
Whats a truther? 9/11 was obviously an inside job & if you cant see that & think Bin Laden in a cave pulled this off your fucking insane. If you think the Bin Laden tapes were real when CIA admitted to putting out fake tapes then your still fucking nuts , if you think building fires on a few floors can take down 3 buildings the same exact way at free fall speed then your still fucking crazy, if you think the CIA's invention al-Qaeda can make NORAD stand down or block FBI agents.YOUR A TERRORIST
JGH8sDaDebunkerz 9 months ago
@JGH8sDaDebunkerz
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"Whats a truther?"-
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Don't be be stupid.
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"YOUR A TERRORIST"-
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And you're a lunatic and just accused the majority of people including 99% of the words engineers as being terrorists. Since you're obviously just here to troll I'm going to do you a favour and block you. No need to thank me.
TheSkepticalIdealist 9 months ago
Who cares about this meaningless bullshit all I know is that buildings 1,2, & 7 were beautiful demo jobs and everything surrounding 9/11 is either fishy or a lie let's wake up bush was evil and so is Obama ... Ron Paul is the only one who can fix this mess haha debunkers are the real conspiracy nuts you guys make me laugh with ur strawman bull
JGH8sDaDebunkerz 10 months ago
@JGH8sDaDebunkerz
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"Who cares about this meaningless bullshit"-
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Apparently truthers don't care about one of their most outspoken leaders outright lying to them for years.
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"you guys make me laugh with ur strawman bull"-
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Oh please do tell me what strawmen I have or anyone else has made. K thnx.
TheSkepticalIdealist 10 months ago
i mean i think it's important to bring to light all the facts you can, and when marginal errors are made, i can now not have to repeat them but it's ridiculous to call this a "debunking" as it attacks David Ray Griffin as portrays him as some non-credible nutcase, he has brought to light factual death blows that leave the official story with multiple mortal wounds.
vigilrevvv4 9 months ago
@vigilrevvv4
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DRG is a prioven liar, this video shows just one example. How can he honestly say there was no hijackers on the flight manifests? Why do you defend this man?
TheSkepticalIdealist 9 months ago
David R.Griffin wasn't really thinking hard, of course he can produce a chart of flights and claim there was no hijackers.So what does he do, he takes the victims list and claims that there are no hijackers on this list. Ok #1 does anyone think that these hijackers should be on the victims list even if they were the ones behind it all?If you say yes you must be thinking that the man in the VT Shooting who killed many people and killed himself is also a victim. 20 dislikes maybe only seen 55 secs
warlord2080 11 months ago
@warlord2080
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Yes, it is amazing how wrong DRG can be and have truthers still defend him.
TheSkepticalIdealist 11 months ago
Wow, epic ownage!
hypercub 1 year ago
David R. Griffith is a propaganda spewing retard who deal in half truths to rip off idiots.
kdj997 1 year ago
The ironic thing about 911 is: on the internet, I can't find any sites which give the "official government" version. All I see ARE the alternate ideas!
I admit: I have NOT made any effort beyond google. Still, I'd expect at least ONE website which gives the US government's version of this event.
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24
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Why not check wtc7lies, 911myths, Debunking 911 Myths, Debunking 911, Screw Loose Change, Conspiracy Science, the James Randi 911 Conspiracy forum and a ton of blogs. There's also hundreds of papers published in legitimate respected journals about the collapses none of which support the 911 conspiracies. You need to look harder, but also realise that for many high up truthers this is about earning money like Alex Jones and Richard Gage so they will spend money on advertising.,
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist I thumbed this post of yours up. I admit: I put practically zero effort into searching for websites that support the official gov't story. (That is in no way an insult to myself or to others - we're all time-constrained.) In fairness to myself, the internet seems heavily swamped in favor of alternate 911 stories, whether or not they are conspiracy stories, so it really did become hard to find. I'd start reading a site, believing it to be the official story, but it'd turn
deskset24 1 year ago
I personally don't think much about who caused 911, because, frankly, unlike, say, anthropogenic global warming (which is fact), or ending factory farming, or reducing world overpopulation, or freeing tortured animals from laboratories, or fighting for UFO disclosure and pot legalization, 911 is a past event. We can't undo it. But we CAN do something about the other things I've mentioned.
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24
-"anthropogenic global warming (which is fact)"
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You're already well ahead of the 911 truthers. I never met one that thought Global Warming was real.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist Thanks. I tell people: "I basically believe the government story on 911, but I am open to other opinions." My sensitivities lie with "who is oppressed more", and my endlessly trying to decide: how MUCH free speech should I allow someone who disagrees with me.
Yes - absolute truth DOES exist, and since there isn't a god, there ARE tests of SELF-CONSISTENCY for it.
The GW-deniers have NEVER been oppressed. THEY are the ones who have silenced scientists.
deskset24 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist Whereas I CAN feel some sympathy for 911 truthers, who have NOT gotten an equal voice (well, equal to the GW-deniers, not saying that they deserve an equal voice to scientists and engineers) in mainstream media, although, as I said, they seem to clog up the internet.
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24
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"who have NOT gotten an equal voice"
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I'm stealing and butchering quote I read elsewhere, but with truthers and science its not that they aren't allowed to play, its that they don't even show up on the playing field. You are right though they do litter the internet with their rubbish contributing myths about 911 such as the one my video address'. I have no sympathy for them, since I used to be one and I now realise they a just a bunch of incompetents liars and lunatics.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist I don't blame you for having no sympathy for the 911"truthers", but I'll still give them some pity. I am ALREADY having absolutely NO sympathy for many OTHER groups of people, most notably, anyone who votes for Republicans or Democrats in the USA. I don't care if they are a soldier serving overseas in Iraq & Afghanistan - if they vote for Demopubs, they deserve NO food/water/medicine. Life-and-death matters mean NOTHING to them compared to..
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24 ...the all "important" "noble" "cause" of giving some billionaire corporate CEO another million dollars in stolen unearned bonuses for stealing from the government & taxpayers. THAT is the single MOST important "cause" to these subhumans and anyone who votes for them. They do not have the mental capacity to compute the consequences of actions. They would LOVE to be on an airplane slamming into a building. It's just atoms moving around in different ways to them. Has no meaning.
deskset24 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist The only part of Zeitgeist the Movie that I've seen is the first half hour dealing with the evolution of religion. THAT part I found compelling. But, since I have done ZERO hardcore historical research in peer-reviewed history journals, I have NO way to judge whether they made up EVERYTHING, or whether they take real facts but make ridiculous implications "A implies B" from them in logically inconsistent ways.
The rest of the movie I could tell was annoying conspiracy..
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24
- "The only part of Zeitgeist the Movie that I've seen is the first half hour dealing with the evolution of religion. THAT part I found compelling."
-
Its wrong, but not as wrong as the other two parts because you can make a convincing case for the conclusion that there is nothing truly original in the Bible, in my opinion, without resorting to the shameless exaggerations they go to. You should be very suspicious of anything proven liars and incompetents tell you.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist Nice to know the religion part of Zeitgeist (Z) is not as wrong as the other 2 parts.
But, how do you know it is wrong at all? You don't know the truth about it, either. It's one thing if you said it: "I have doubts about any theory, but the Z-theory of the origin of christianity is as good as any other theory." Saying Z-theory (or any) is wrong implies you "know" the "right" one.
I really agree with Bill Maher's edict at the end of Religulous: the religion of DOUBT.
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24
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"But, how do you know it is wrong at all? "
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There's been plenty of analysis of the whole film by many people. I don't like talking about it as it presumes its original though, the religion section is the most original part the 911 section is basically one big copy and paste edit job from many conspiracy films, the same with most of Part 3 which also just repeats things conspiracy theroists have said. Part 1 however is based off fringe author "Acharya S"
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@deskset24
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[continued]
-
So, I would check for criticisms of Part 1 ConspiracyScience . com's Zeitgeist articles which goes through the whole film. The commentary there is by no means all there is, in fact the 911 criticisms could be expanded greatly but there's still more than enough there I think.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@deskset24
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[continued 2]
-
I hate this small comment sections! As far as Part 1 goes, the point is that the Bible is no more "inspired" than any other sacred texts. We can see MANY parallels of myths in the Bible and that of other religions. Without trying to fit all the details into 200 remaining characters, what Part 1 exaggerates these parallels and twists the truth in order to make the claims it does. There ARE parallels between Jesus and other myths, just not quite like they claim.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist Not to prolong this conversation, but, I AM curious: what is your belief or knowledge on whether Jesus actually existed? There exist scholars, not just Zeitgeist, who claim Jesus never existed.
Again - I really have no strong opinion on the matter.
I know one Jesus who existed: my 2nd elbow surgeon was named Jesus. Jesus Medina.
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24
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"what is your belief or knowledge on whether Jesus actually existed? There exist scholars.. who claim Jesus never existed."
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There are no respected scholars that I know that think Jesus never existed, but I always say that I don't believe the BIBLICAL Jesus existed. IE. THAT CHARACTER is clearly a myth. There were plenty of contenders at the time for who he could have been based on. The ZG claim is that it was 100% pure myth 100% totally stolen from older myths about the sun.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist So, why did people build up this incredible myth around this real ordinary human being named Jesus? What did he "offer" that others hadn't? Was he a good magician? A good salesman?
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24 I'm pretty sure that the real ordinary man that was Jesus could actually walk on water and do miracles. People just didn't realize it until after he died. Do you know the story "There Is No Doubt About It" by H. C. Andersen?
nithelmusic 1 year ago
@nithelmusic That's a contradiction. If Jesus could perform miracles, he wouldn't be an ordinary man.
Jesus could not perform miracles. Also, he was never real.
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24 Allright, I take it you don't know that story, because you're misunderstanding my point. Jesus never did the things he is claimed to have done. But stories afterwards made it seem like he did.
nithelmusic 1 year ago
@deskset24
Well, if you put stock in the bible, he was the son of God. That's probably gotta count for something.
I mean, if one is the son of the living God, then he's not ordinary.
So I'm wondering, what's Jesus have to do with 9/11 any ways? Seems like there isn't much of a connection, unless you're thinking that day was part of the end times predictions.
stbays 1 year ago
@stbays
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"what's Jesus have to do with 9/11 any ways? "
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The first Zeitgeist is supposed to be about "myth" (IRONY!!) and exposing some of the greatest myths in our society, but it also says that the NWO want the myth of religion to continue to control us. Basically, its relevant (according to Zeitgeist logic) because they think of Part 1 as a conspiracy and Zeitgeist is a conspiracy film
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
Oh, weird. I haven't given the whole Zeitgiest thing much of my time. I can't seem to find any time I feel like spending on it.
stbays 1 year ago
@stbays No, I do not put stock in the bible. Bible=koran=talmud=Mayan prophecies = bullshit.
Only subhumans believe that crap but not AGW.
That does not mean I rule out all supernatural phenomena. e.g. Psychic power exists to a degree, but not to a degree that any human can control, in spite of what any supposed tv psychic claims. Aliens DO have the high tech to visit earth and do things we can't. The point is: science and technology are the path to all these things.
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24
That's your right to think. Good thing it doesn't make it true. People who believe in the bible are in fact the same as you and anyone else. They just believe in something they can not prove.
Me, I have my own beliefs and they are more complicated then I care to get into.
stbays 1 year ago
@stbays I know you don't have the mental capacity, because you've never done a hard day of work in your life, to comprehend the enormous difference between taking side on a conjecture, say, believing the twin primes conjecture is false, with no proof at all, just as a hunch, yet being able to be swayed either way, versus ARROGANTLY ABSOLUTELY believing something for which there exists no proof (god), building up massive tax-sucking wastes of religions around it, and murdering others for it.
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24
My gosh I have no idea where I should begin with this comment of yours.
You're some how assuming because I believe in God that I haven't worked hard in my life? How do those two things even go together. Most religious people work very hard to help others. Not that I believe you gotta accept God to help others. I've just found religious people have more incentive.
Really you're just tossing insults. How is that helpful to anyone?
stbays 1 year ago
@stbays I didn't know I was tossing insults! How was I to know?
Just like GW Bush didn't know there were no WMDs in Iraq or that Hussein had no connection to Al-Qaeda,
yet millions of subhuman religionists voted for him.
I definitely do NOT want to insult you. But, if you expect me to respect everything you say, then I have to expect you to respect everything anyone says about anything. That IS the first rule of all logic.
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24
" I know you don't have the mental capacity, because you've never done a hard day of work in your life"
That looked rather insulting, especially since I've made an effort to work hard every day of my life, as no one expected it of me. I was billed as not being capable and I wanted to prove them wrong and let them know my disabilities do not define who I am as a person.
I respect everyone, even those I don't agree with.
stbays 1 year ago
@stbays Well, if bible thumpers and I are "equal" in proving what we believe, then so are police officers and detectives and believers that OJ Simpson murdered anybody. All our beliefs are equally unproved and unprovable.
deskset24 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist .. theories. In general, it IS true: countries often do get one bunch of poor suckers to fight and kill another bunch of poor suckers, for the benefit of the rich. But, that cannot explain ALL wars.
But, I disagree with the details regarding their conspiracies. I mean, *I* am part of the conspiracy that caused 911, because *I* didn't exactly DO anything or go out of my way to prevent 911, either.
Anyway, I never bothered to see the rest of the film.
deskset24 1 year ago
@deskset24
Anyway, never mind all I said. Point is: each of us tries to come up with a self-consistent ALGORITHM for how much free speech to allow an enemy, whether we openly realize it (like *I* do) or not (and most are too stupid to even realize it)
deskset24 1 year ago
Good job on this. I never even knew that anyone thought there were no terrorists on planes on 9-11. Zeitgeist puts forth crap that is easily proven wrong. None of the real questions I have are even brought up by that crap movie. You cant blame anyone for not trusting our corrupt government though. The anti-bush crowd that was helped by almost every TV station is to blame for all of the anti-US lies taking hold. Remember the "hate Bush" stuff?
jmurphy914 1 year ago
Good job on this.
jmurphy914 1 year ago
Comment removed
pajamaMOUTHTV 1 year ago
@pajamaMOUTHTV -
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"Oh they know what Thermite is but "What the heck is Thermate?""
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eh? Thermate is just thermite with added sulphur, you can make it at home. You act like its like some kind of black ops secret weapon no one has ever heard about.
-
Also, please deal with the video instead of going off topic, Why cant any of you truthers stick to the point? David Ray Griffin had no reason to say that hijackers werent on flight manifests, CNN victim lists were not flight manifests.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@pajamaMOUTHTV
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"the substance found ALL AROUND Manhattan (Thermate) "
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And FYI, they found no such thing in the dust. I know you believe everything your truther leaders tell you so I know you dont care about finding out why.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
Comment removed
pajamaMOUTHTV 1 year ago
Thank you very much! I'm pretty frustrated myself by people who believe everything zeitgeist says. The documentary is flawed in a lot of ways. Thanks for pointing that out.
Bionuker 1 year ago
THE TRUE NORTH AMERICANS DESERVE RESPECT... UNFORTUNATELY ARE REDUCED THE SAME CONDITION OF THE OTHER SUBJUGATED SOCIETY...
THEY ARE UNDER THE YOKE OF THE GLOBAL ELITE...COMPOSED BY ANOTHER PORTION OF NORTH AMERICAN POPULATION AND ALL CONTROL STATIONS IN NORTH AMERICAN SOCIETY ARE OCCUPIED BY
ELEMENTS THIS ELITE.
WHO WILL SAVE THE NORTH AMERICAN PEOPLE?
SUPER MAN??
WawsestilL 1 year ago
Most real debunking issues have been surrounding religion. This is VERY interesting.. Thanks for sharing. Nice to at least get an idea of ANY real argument... I am not sure if I believe yet there is one.. but I appreciate a refreshing viewpoint!
skmetz 1 year ago
@skmetz
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Thanks! I suggest you try websites like 911myths.com or wtc7lies.com for more. I also recommend checking out some of my favourited videos.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
nice...lol, i especially like how fast the "paperwork" gets flashed across the screen and then you give us a "close-up" of the names...oh, its SOOO clear now, lol...you're ridiculous.....besides, i go by VIDEO EVIDENCE...not paprework and graphics that can be FABRICATED by anyone......nice try, have a nice day!
pajamaMOUTH 1 year ago
nice...lol, i especially like how fast the "paperwork" gets flashed across the screen and then you give us a "close-up" of the names...oh, its SOOO clear now, lol...you're ridiculous.....besides, i go by VIDEO EVIDENCE...not paprework and graphics that can be FABRICATED by anyone......nice try, have a nice day!
pajamaMOUTH 1 year ago
@pajamaMOUTH
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Good job missing the point of the video. Griffin lied, the CNN lists are not Flight Manifests and never claimed to be so, that is what the "hijackers not on flight manifests" claim is based on and its nonsense.
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And you can google those lists I show in the video and read it for yourself, but I see you have no intention on actually understanding the point of the video I know you dont care,
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
Whose lies should we be concerned with, a theology professor or the US gov? Where are the flight 'envelopes'? How about a Pentagon vid with a plane in it? Ex-CIA admitted making fake OBL videos, so where is the proof OBL was involved? Where is a finalized list of hijackers if 6 or 7 turned up alive? Why won't the gov. challenge/refute thermite findings?? How do entire planes vaporize, engines, fuselage, etc. while paper passports / DL's survive?
SkepticalREALIST.
kc0696 1 year ago
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@kc0696
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"Why won't the gov. challenge/refute thermite findings??"
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Because there's nothing but a tiny fringe group claiming thermite, there is no controversy to respond to. No legitimate peer review, no notable scientists. They dont perform competent tests (like burning the chip in an inert atmosphere) and there are tests for thermite labs do every day across the country for the policein arson cases that Jones didnt do. They get definitive results, Jones doesnt want definitive results.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
Classic...'a tiny fringe group'. Haha. That's what they said about the truth movement 6yrs ago...and here you are will all your cyber-spook traitor buddies working day and night to stop it. Ooops.
What is funny is, the traitors of old didn't have the convenience and autonomy of the internet to hide behind, they had to peddle their BS in person. You guys take it to a whole new level: TRAITOR + COWARD = SUPER SCUM.
kc0696 1 year ago
@kc0696
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"and here you are will all your cyber-spook traitor buddies working day and night to stop it. Ooops."
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Well now you've progressed into a full youtube troll. Good one. You arent even arguing any points anymore. Before I therefore block you (gave you lots of chances) I will point out that I posted these videos back in 2009 and made them for the same reason people still make anti-Creationist videos/websites. Its not because they secretly think Creationism is true and are scared.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@kc0696
-"How do entire planes vaporize, engines, fuselage, etc. while paper passports / DL's survive?"
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So if the passport was fake, then what about all the other perishable stuff that fell from the plane like airline itinerary, a personal letter, plane seats, life jackets,seats from the plane and then of course lots of other plane debris. Do you even believe there was a plane? do you think black ops ninjas went around planting all the plane debris all over the place in broad daylight?
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
Nice big circle. OK, forget the stuff that was there that shouldn't have been, I'm asking YOU to explain how stuff that should have been there wasn't - two 6 TON steel and titanium engines, fuselage, wings, seats, landing gear, etc. There is simply no way ANY crash at ANY speed can vaporize a plane.
We can climb right over your wall of ignorance...no matter how tall.
kc0696 1 year ago
@kc0696
-"two 6 TON steel and titanium engines, fuselage, wings, seats, "
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I said they found lots of parts of the plane including landing gear and I mentioned seats, life jackets and pieces of the fuselage and at least one wheel. So you dont believe there was a plane that hit the WTC at all? You believe a black ops team of ninjas planted all that stuff in broad daylight in front of thousands of witness?
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
I guess if you say it or the US gov. it HAS to be true. Well a pic says a thousand words...and no debris at the Pentagon or Shanksville means no planes. As for WTC, seial stamped parts would confirm plane ID's but NONE have been presented.
As for pics of the rubble: where is the 250 acres of carpet, miles of cables, thousands of vending machines, desks, refigerators, toilets, file cabinets? If you have pics with rubble other than steel and dust, love to see 'em.
kc0696 1 year ago
@kc0696
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"I guess if you say it or the US gov. it HAS to be true. "
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Yes thats right all the first responders and police and clean up workers that talked about debris are all lying and none of that stuff existed despite the fact that we have lots of picture of the stuff and afterwards when they are cleaning it up.
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"where is the 250 acres of carpet, miles of cables, thousands of vending machine"
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Good god, we're getting shockingly close to "the towers never existed".
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
Are you talking about Pentagon / Shanksville first repsonders who said there was no sign of a plane crash? Are you denying THOSE people exist or do you just hear/read/believe what you want?? We saw the small scraps of 'debris' but you FAIL to explain how things like ENGINES, SEATS, WINGS, FUSELAGE and oh yeah BODIES that are found at EVERY OTHER CRASH SITE were no where to be found on 9/11.
Maybe truther-ninjas cleaned it all up over night to frame the gov??
kc0696 1 year ago
@kc0696
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"Are you talking about Pentagon / Shanksville first repsonders who said there was no sign of a plane crash?"
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No one said there was no plane crash, dont tell me you also think Wally Miller thinks no plane crashed and there were no body parts either right?
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"ENGINES, SEATS, WINGS, FUSELAGE and oh yeah BODIES that are found at EVERY OTHER CRASH SITE were no where to be found on 9/11.":
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Firstly, we were talking about the WTC. Second, you are wrong, its the same in all similar crashes
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@kc0696
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"As for WTC, seial stamped parts would confirm plane ID's but NONE have been presented."
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So you're saying that there were no plane at the WTC? How does it feel that even most truthers think you no planers are nuts?
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
Serieal stamped parts confirm the EXACT ID, and the flight envelops would serve doubly so...but NEITHER have been provided. Believe what you want but the crashes at WTC were DEFINITELY not the A A11 and UA175 were were told.
Logic 101: If the gov. story was so true and provable as you clearly believe...what kind of fucking loser would spend EVERY DAY defending it?
Answer: no one would unless of course it's a HUGE LIE that needs defending.
TRAITORS R SCUM.
kc0696 1 year ago
@kc0696
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"Believe what you want but the crashes at WTC were DEFINITELY not the A A11 and UA175 were were told."
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But you also believe there was no plane debris and all the pictures and witness' of the SUBSTANTIAL plane debris are liars or dont exist and/.or the debris planted by those pesky black ops ninjas that somehow managed to dump lots of heavy plane debris and scatter cushions, luggage, life jackets all over the place with no one noticing.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@kc0696
-": If the gov. story was so true and provable as you clearly believe...what kind of fucking loser would spend EVERY DAY defending it?"
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If truthers cared about what was true you would think they would care when they tell easily demonstrable lies. Truthers have been wrong about damn near everything back to front since day 1. This video shows Griffin lying, you dont have to think 911 wasnt an inside job to see that he was wrong.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@kc0696
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And please stay on topic, I asked you what REASON do we have to believe that there were no hijackers on flight manifests?
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
WTF does it prove if the gov. shows you some papers they call 'official flight manifests' and the alleged hijackers names are on them? Would that prove the names weren't just patsies/assets to some state sponsor??
Your ENTIRE case is built on trusting the gov. but like the passport 'found' on the street or the backpack; these are HILARIOUS INSULTS to anyone with half a brain and prove an INSIDE JOB more than they do a 'surprise attack' by 'rogue Arabs'.
kc0696 1 year ago
@kc0696
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"Your ENTIRE case is built on trusting the gov."
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No your entire case of the hijackers not on flight manifests is the lie by Griffin telling you that there are no hijackers on flight manifests and calling CNN's victim lists manifests. Again, we have no reason to think there were no hijackers on flight manifests. Absolutely none.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
This thread is funny...it seems literally impossible for you government cheerleaders to answer a simple, simple question.
Maybe because you know the answer...we are to believe the planes and their contents (Pentagon and Shanks) totally vaporized. This is a true example of how stupid the US government really takes people to be.
CRschralper 1 year ago
@CRschralper
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".it seems literally impossible for you government cheerleaders to answer a simple, simple question."
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Huh? I dont know what question it is you think I havent answered but I have asked repeatedly what reason truthers have to believe that there were no hiajckers on flight manifests besides David Ray Griffins continued lies about CNNs victim lists being flight manifests. I guess you truthers see what you want to see.
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
-"How do entire planes vaporize, engines, fuselage, etc. while paper passports / DL's survive?"
So do YOU really believe the planes VAPORIZED?
With some basic common sense - clearly asking a lot - this is not only impossible but also comical, just like steel structures completely dismembering themselves from fire or the nation's defense HQ completely undefended after a full scale attack is underway for almost an hour.
CRschralper 1 year ago
@CRschralper
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"So do YOU really believe the planes VAPORIZED?"
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Thats kc0696's strawman not mine. He seems confused however. First we were talking about the WTC, then he started talking about Flight 77 and U93. Both very different impacts.
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"With some basic common sense - clearly asking a lot - this is not only impossible but also comical,"
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Excuse me and this diversion is fun n'all but would you mind addressing my previous post to you?
TheSkepticalIdealist 1 year ago
@pajamaMOUTH idiot
SeeProfileForDetails 1 year ago
Oh man, i lol'd so hard. I was totally convinced when i first watched Zeitgeist, then after a day or so I began to doubt it and the peoples sources. Also because of Penn & Teller's Bullshit episode on conspiracy theorists, they all turn out to be total nutjobs.
This was the icing on the cake, thanks for showing this.
MontyBLARG 1 year ago
The point made is that in light of the evidence, the manifests with the names of the 'terrorists' are frauds. So I think Griffin is well justified in citing the CNN list as supporting evidence.
Blissentia 2 years ago
@Blissentia
That isn't the point, griffin claimed that there were no hijackers on the manifests. He doesnt say in light of the evidence we should be suspicious about the manifests. He says they arent there.
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
@Blissentia
There is NOTHING gained by quoting the CNN lists, the fact that the terrorists aren't there really tell you nothing. We already know the Boston Globe published seating positions which did show the terrorists, yet Griffin ignores it and instead calls CNN's victim lists flight manifests which they were never intended to be in the first place that said they dont consider hijackers victims and so dont include them.The CNN lists are only evidence of how Griffin gets it wrong
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
@Blissentia
Just wondering if you now accept that Griffin was wrong about the Flight Manifests now?
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
For the time being, as I've said, I accept your position (or at least the fact that in a formal debate, it would be superior to my position.) The reason for my doing so is that I have not yet had the time to read Griffin's book. However, even if you are right about the flight manifests, that does not therefore mean that the 9/11 truth movement is invalid. It relies on cumulative evidence.
Blissentia 2 years ago
@Blissentia
1. If you find a reason to defend Griffin on this point let me know.
2. It doesn't invalidate all truther claims, of course. But this isn't the only claim Griffin has gotten so badly wrong.
I will say that when I was a truther however I believed that 911 Truth surely couldn't be wrong about EVERYTHING. But don't rule that out....seriously...
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
Griffin clarifies this in New Pearl Harbor Revisited.
You see, the CNN lists were all anybody had available to them, and there are so many contradictions with the alleged "manifests" in "Perfect Soldiers" and the initial FBI account that the "manifests" are immediately suspect, and we have no reason to consider them as evidence of anything. Read "New Pearl Harbor Revisited" for more. Also go to 911debunkers (DOT) blogspot (DOT) com
Blissentia 2 years ago
@Blissentia
No, there is absolutely no reason to say there were no hijackers on the flight manifests.
Griffin claimed the CNN lists were "flight manifests" but they weren't, he based the entire claim off of that.
If you want to claim that all flight manifest information currently released are lies that's one thing, but to say that the flight manifests do not show hijackers you are simply WRONG.
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
From a footnote in Griffin's chapter on the hijackers:
"Attempts to get flight manifests directly from the airlines were futile. For example, when one researcher requested the final flight manifest for Flight 11, American Airlines replied: "At the time of the incidents we released the actual passenger manifests to the appropriate government agencies who in turn released certain information to the media. These lists were published in many major periodicals and are"...
Blissentia 2 years ago
... now considered public record. At this time we are not in a position to release further information" (e-mail from Elias Davidsson, September 9, 2004).
So we can say with confidence that Griffin cited the CNN victims list because that was the only thing available at the time, since the airlines refused to offer them and instead directed him and his fellow researchers to those lists.
Blissentia 2 years ago
@Blissentia
You are still trying to dance around the error Griffin made.
Griffin had no reason to call the CNN lists flight manifests. There is no way you could look at them and glean any information from it that suggested there were no hijackers aboard. He even says you can go read the "flight manifests" at CNN, but you cant because were never meant to be flight manifests.
Outside your own incredulity there is no reason to say there are no hijackers on the flight manifests.
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
@Blissentia
[continued]... Griffin also ignored the Boston Globe which published seating positions of Flight 11 two days after 911 which did contain the suspected hijackers.
Why did he ignore that, and then refer you to the CNN's victim list and then declared unequivocally that no hijackers were on the manifests?
As recently as Nov 2009 Griffin was STILL claiming "no Arab names whatsoever - were on the passenger manifests of the flights". How can you possibly justify that?
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
@TheSkepticalIdealist
I will read all of NPH and NPHR and get back to you. I don't believe that Griffin made as gross errors as you accuse him of. The footnote was to a very short section of the chapter on the hijackers, that I looked up via the index (I only got the book a few days ago). I trust that Griffin provides much more evidence that the official hijackers story is false, and that the flight manifests were doctored. However, I concede that for the time being, you've won the debate.
Blissentia 2 years ago
@Blissentia
The footnote about the flight manifests is one of the most often repeated claims on 911, and something he was saying only a few months ago as if it was some kind of 100% confirmed fact.
The fact is this claim is based on a falsehood. Griffin says that the flight manifests show no hijackers, when you go to check his source you see he is calling the CNN victim lists a flight manifest and that this is what he is basing the entire claim off of.
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
Just a note to anyone reading the exchange between me and kkMonterey. . .
As you can see after all that and he still couldnt admit that David Ray Griffin was wrong when he said that the hijackers werent on the flight manifests.
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
@kkMonterey
I think this person was talking about Griffin here. Its clear you havent watched my videos, not even this one despite saying I'm so wrong.
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
He hasn't researched anything. He has only tried pulling together micro-segments of nonsense in order to "debunk" what is clearly the greatest inside job in our country's history. This is clearly "made for morons"... If he really wanted to "debunk" the 9/11 TRUTH, he'd be best off just shutting up and letting professional shillers do their work...
kkMonterey 2 years ago
@kkMonterey Just answer this, do you believe the hijackers were on the flight manifests claim by Griffin is correct or not correct? Why did he lie?
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
I don't know that he lied. Nice tactic though... Loaded statements, no evidence... You have a job waiting for you in mainstream media!!
kkMonterey 2 years ago
@kkMonterey
Did you not watch my video? Either Griffin is a liar or so incompetent he is indistinguishable from a liar. So which is it that you believe?
Or just tell me how you justify claiming that no hijackers were on the manifests, can you do that?
Just answer the specific question dont try and change the subject.
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
Sure. Could you provide for me the ORIGINAL manifest? That'd be great - thanks. In the mean-time, I will say this - it sounds to me like you have a personal issue with Griffin. That's ok.. You obviously have no data, no argument and not a leg to stand on.. So what the heck - why not just discredit and slander people instead of dealing with the TRUTH (which is so pathetically obvious to anyone with a brain and an open/unprogrammed mind)...
kkMonterey 2 years ago
@kkMonterey
I showed you in the video.
Griffin has absolutely no basis for saying the hijackers werent on it. The information from the manifests we do have including the Terry McDermott lists contain the hijackers.
Why did Griffin call the CNN's victim lists "flight manifests" but ignore the Boston Globe?
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
You're funny - it's like watching - say - the Steelers win the Super Bowl.. Then, while watching a replay of it, you hear an announcer misspeak.. So you claim that the Super Bowl never even happened and the Steelers never won because an announcer misspoke..
kkMonterey 2 years ago
@kkMonterey
What on earth are you talking about?
Your next reply better address the video or or Im going to block you for being a troll.
TheSkepticalIdealist 2 years ago
you can block me all you want you stupid asshole.. i'm talking about FACT. not your insecurity you bullshit artist. why don't you get a fucking clue and pull your head out of your ass!?!?!!?
kkMonterey 2 years ago