@h2dude69 The two natures did not mix. God remained God IN the human form.
Has God moved on this earth? Then God moved among the finite molecules. Did God's nature mix with those molecules and become finite? No. So, how did his Spirit move here before without becoming finite?
With our minds very little is possible. With God, all things are possible. God deemed it necessary that the Messiah would be both fully human and fully divine without the two natures mixing or mingling. (cont.)
If God's Spirit can move here on Earth (Which I'm sure you would accept it has) then he has interacted with the finite many times without BECOMING the finite.
It would be no different for him to decide to take on the human form and interact with humanity in that form.
With God all things are possible and more importantly, His scriptures flatly and plainly tell you it was so.
I often wonder how muslims can take the same bible and disprove the diety of Jesus. Its so sad that there taught to filter the clear teaching of the new testament through the quran. It frightens me knowing the truth. My heart breaks knowing they realy believe what they think is true and our dedicating there lives to a false prophet. How sad a day for them on judjment day and they realize the truth. God bless you brother hopefully there eyes can be opened!!!
But the problem is many Muslims hear Christians say God died on the cross. Christ is fully God but He died as a Man , God cannot die or be seperated Son from Father as God Jesus was forsaken as Man only. Muslims stumple on this point more than any other when hearing God died on the cross
@polopowers1 True. A common mistake (Both Christian and Muslim) is in understanding the fully dual nature of The Messiah. God never died on the cross as the very idea violates the nature of God (Eternal).
Many Christians and certainly all Muslims I have encountered are unaware that Jesus, when he credi from the cross (Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabacthani) was simply quoting the Messianic Psalm 22:1 which is all about the crucifixion as to say, "This is fulfilled in your sight today."
you are nice man. I can see judging from your the way to talk and etc. But it is a confusing theology. I must say. Jesus as God and as human?. Religion is not suppose to confuse. Religion is suppose to be simple. Anyway nice to know Christians like you as well as other nice and kind hearted Christians all over. May God bless you and your family and guide you to success and happiness in this life and the hereafter. :)
I don't think I ever replied to this. I apologize greatly. Thank you for your kind words. To me it isn't confusing at all. But then, honestly, I believe that Jesus' deity is something only revealed by the Father. When Jesus asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" They all answered much as the Muslim - in essence, that you are a prophet.
But Peter, when asked, responded, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." and for this Jesus commended Peter and said (Cont.)
to him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."
You see Peter made a distinction between prophets and Jesus. Jesus is the unqiue Messiah who scripture calls El-Gibbor (Mighty God) and Avi-Ad (Everlasting Father) in Isaiah 9:6 and he sees him as the unique Son of the living God.
Again, thank you for your kind words. Blessings on you and yours.
okay let me just give you my opinion not as a Muslim just as an everyday person who heard this not putting in my lessons from the quran or anything into play
so God sent himself down to sacrifice himself for our dirty sins so that we are forgiven how does that sound right to anyone no offense I don't want to make you think I am an ass I really do respect you and your opinion plus I like the way you state your opinion I just want to say to me that doesn't sound right
@3ooyoon Hey my friend. As long as your response is genuine and stated respectfully it will never offend me. I've been called every name in the book and I've just learned to get use to it here. SO thanks for watching and sharing your genuine questions.
#1. Let me ask you something before I start digging in. Do you first believe that God has the power / ability to control the universe/molecules in such as to form a human and then use those molecules to interact with his creation; (cont.)
but the whole idea that one man has to pay for our sins it not something I could ever believe in and the whole idea that a human that is so easily hurt could be god is wrong see I had an accident last october I got 3rd degree burns on my hands and I almost burnt the house down with oil I got lucky
but this is how the story goes I was making tea for me and my friend and I turned on the wrong burner there was oil on the other one and when I saw(cont.)
@3ooyoon smoke I went to take it outside of the house me being stupid and not thinking it had a lid but it was boiled for so long even that didn't matter while I was half way to the door it burst into flames in my hands and fell to the floor
this is where things get strange it gets all over the wood floors and carpets and they went into flames then suddenly it was like someone blew out a candle and they all truned off
the day before I was wearing my wedding dress to show it to my family and
@3ooyoon there was a lady there we know who has what we call the evil eye she is basically a jinx if she gets jealous something bad happens to you so before we showed her the dress and after we showed her the dress we all prayed together to spare me from her eyes
I sear to you that without that prayer I wouldn't be here today because the frames got in my face and it didn't burn I stepped in the boiling oil to run out of the house but they didn't burn
@3ooyoon what I am trying to get at is that I saw how easily flesh burns and how fast a life can be taken away and I saw so much more because I have a lot of these kind of story within my family some so mind blowing its unbelievable and I don't think Jesus was god because god created everything we see smell hear touch feel everything
he can't be weak like a human he can't die he is eternal he can't be a spirit he is God he created spirits he can't pay for our sins because he created us to sin
@3ooyoon and to repent and he can't do these mortal acts of sleeping eating beating breathing he is above all that and greater then all that I know its a simple explanation and you probably have something amazing up your sleeve but I am not the most educated in religion I won't lie but I love it with all my heart
maybe someday I will have the knowledge to give you a good argument but right now I am only learning I am only 19 :P so I tried my best
@3ooyoon Thanks for sharing your story and I'm thankful that you were not hurt more than you were.
i can promise you this, I will not try to TRICK you or trap you in an argument. I do not believe that that is intellectually honest and it annoys me when people attempt it. I have seen so many different arguments that I usually know where the person is headed when they ask the fake up front question. So... I promise that if I ask a question it is only to understand what you believe. (cont.)
It will not be so I can come back and say, "AHA! I got you because of X."
I asked if you believed God had the power / ability to become human. It seems you have answered both yes and no. You said at the opening of your answer, "God has the ability to do anything..." But you finished with, "he can't be weak like a human he can't die he is eternal..."
So, let's get some more clarity on this because I cannot explain the Christian view until I know more where you are at. I think some (cont.)
of the confusion is that you are attributing the human attributes of weakness to God and finding conflict in that. God can't be weak. God can't die, etc. In this we agree. The Christian view is NOT that God died, etc but that the Messiah was BOTH fully human and fully God. God did not eat, drink, sleep, etc. The HUMAN aspect of the messiah (Jesus) did.
That is what this video is about.
So do you believe that God could create a human and exist in this human fully?
@jorsak 1st off I want 2 say thanks ur honestly a great person u have a big heart & ur very understanding
as 4 the rest okay I get were ur going yeah I believe that god could do that but then again why? why would he come down 2 deal with us & 2 hear us when he is always with every1 & hearing every1 at all times there is no difference
I believe in the messiah but he is not God in any way hes a miracle of a human being his birth says it all
@jorsak if god can create anything out of nothing then why can't he make a virgin woman pregnant and give his powers to a human being
meh anyways I am just glad I made a new friend who is so passionate about god and loves him so much see to me that is better then an atheist friend who walks around anything that has to do with religion and is just a nice person
again I want to thank you for your amazing manners and personality
may Allah bless you and show you so much love and forgiveness
@3ooyoon 1st thank you for your kind words. I'm glad we had the chance to meet and chat and get to know a bit more about each other. Youv'e asked good questions that I hope to shed some light on. I'm going to do something I don't normally do and ask a favor of you.
Can you go to biblegateway and paste the following after the /
passage/?search=hebrews%2010:1-24&version=NLT
I would like you to read Hebrews 10:1-24. Then I would to discuss the great ? you have asked.
@jorsak yeah a while back sorry just didn't have the time to answer back
I really don't have much time today I am heading out for work in like 10 minutes and I have to get ready so sorry bud I will answer you back asap okay
as for our discussion so I read it soo far back I don't even remember & the link isn't working
what I can tell u is that I am soo bad at being a good muslim lol I haven't read the quran that well 2 start reading the bible but inshallah (God willing) I plan on learning from the bible as well I personally think all muslim men & women should educate themselves by reading both & learning from them as well
Paul wrote God's word through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit just as Moses, Isaiah, and David did before him.
Do you acknowledge that sin requires sacrifice for forgivenss? If not, then you reject Moses and the Law of God. Do you acknowledge that God foretold through his prophets that the Messiah would come to die for our sins? If not, then you reject the prophets (Isaiah 53) and that he specifically would die by crucifixion? (Psalms 22)
Do you acknowledge that the Messiah himself told you that he came to die (Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:33-34) and that he told you specifically that he would die by crucifixion (Matthew 20:19, 26:2) and that he told you exactly WHY he must die? (Matthew 26:28).
If you are unwilling to acknowledge the whole of God's word then it does not surprise me that you do not like Paul who so clearly stated the Deity of Christ.
@jorsak Typical Christian. Again, Matthew and Mark said that, JESUS NEVER SAID THOSE WORDS, THESE ARE THE WORDS OF MATTHEW MARK LUKE AND JOHN. Get hold of a red letter Bible sir, where everything Jesus is supposed to have said is in red, you'll find funnily enough only 10% is in red, everything else is black. Find me the verse where Jesus says I am God, or Worship Me. And when quoting, give me the full context, otherwise anything you say makes no sense.
@jklharry Typical Muslim. Ignore responses. Do not address rebuttals. Post propaganda and rhetoric. I've already refuted this comment before you even made it.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were called disciples of God and they recorded GOD'S WORD just as the called disciples before them. They spoke God's words as did Moses, Isaiah, and David before him. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," (2 Timothy 3:16)
@jorsak As Muslims we believe in the books that came before the Quran, we believe in the Torah, Psalms and the Gospels, but the Bible has been fiddled around with constantly and has been changed around continously, if you are a true believer in God you'd be honest and agree with me that I'm right. I do not say the WHOLE Bible is not the word of God, there are parts in which are God's word, but having seen the various contradictions in the 4 Gospel writers, that book holds no value to me.
#4. The Gospel writers record from Jesus' own mouth that he came to die (Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:33-34) and that he told in advance HOW he would die (Matthew 20:19,26:2) and exactly WHY he would die (Matthew 26:28).
The Muslim rejects ALL of God's word. The Muslim follows false teachings given by Satan in a cave some 600 years AFTER the word of God was completed.
You have NO basis on which to assert that scripture has been changed. Demonstrate that ONE BIT of the law which requires (cont.)
@jorsak Yeah, the same "Satan" who revealed the Quran in which a whole chapter is dedicated to the mother of Jesus (chapter 19, Maryam), the same Satan who confirmed the teachings that came before him from Moses and Jesus (pbut), the same Satan who was prophecised in John 16:13, the same Satan who was prophecised in Deutronomy 18:18, yeah, that's Satan alright.
@jklharry Yes. The very same Satan. What more like Satan can you get to deceive you into not beliving the entirety of God's word.
God's law says sacrifice for sin is REQUIRED. Islam says just ask for forgiveness - no sacrifice. God's prophets said the Messiah would come to die for the sins of the world. Islam says this is untrue. God's word QUOTES the Messiah himself saying he came to die for the sins of many. Islam makes him a liar.
Yes. JUST LIKE SATAN. He deceives you into thinking you could ever earn salvation without shed blood as required by the law. JUST LIKE SATAN to deny the prophets. JUST LIKE SATAN to turn you from the revealed truth of God.
Salaam,
Joe
PS. Still waiting on your defense for the dismisal of Paul as a prophet of God.
@jorsak If you consider the Bible to be God's word in it's entirety then you must also consider the edited VERSIONS, edited by scholars and doctors of divinity to be the word of God. Some Bibles you find verses and in other's you don't find verses...why is this? The Bible says itself anyone who adds or deletes from the scripture, the plagues of this book be upon them...so what's this nonsense that's going on??
#1. Only the KJV contains verses that are not common to modern translation. All modern translations agree on the verses of the Bible.
#2. There are 16 verses (depending on how you count passages) that the KJV contains that are not in modern translations.
#3. These 16 verses represent .004% of the 7958 verses of the new testament and call into question not 1 single doctrine of the Christian faith as they are either inconsequential or repeated elsewhere in scripture.
#4. The ADDITIONAL passages that the KJV contain were the result of scribal notation mistakenly being considered part of the verse order and as more original manuscript data has been studied these verses have been accurately removed.
#5. it is NO DIFFERENT than Uthman burning copies of inaccurate Qur'an verses.
#6. The bottom line is that you haven't a leg to stand on. The law has not been changed. Sacrifice is REQUIRED for the forgiveness of sin and Islam does not fulfill the law of God.
#7. You refer Revelation 22:18-19 which speaks of not adding a verse or taking a verse away. Each book of the Bible is just that - a book. The Bible is a collection of 66 Books. Revelation is a Book in and of itself. Note one verse has been added or subtracted to Revelation and thus no plague visited upon.
#8. you must repent for your belief that God Almighty is incapable of keeping his word pure. Either Uthman burned verses that were inaccurate JUST AS Christian scholars
have corrected the erroneous verses of the KJV or Uthman burned accurate holy scripture.
You cannot see that it is exactly the same because your bias does not allow it.
As I said, at the end of the day a genuine and honest study of God's word reveals that Islam does not follow the Law of God, his Prophets or The Messiah.\
@jorsak So your evil God killed his own Son, or himself, since they are both part of a laughable trinity, to save mankind from eternal doom. You know how ridiculous that sounds? That we should bear the burden of Adam and Eve (as)?? Is God that evil that he should punish us for something we didn't do, yet when Lot has sex with his daughters God says nothing...?
"God killed his own Son, or himself, since they are both part of a laughable trinity,"
#1. You will stand condemned before God for your words for mocking the Holy God. even if you do not agree with my faith, it is rather arrogant to mock - be warned: you will be held accountable for every word you speak.
#2. God the Father did not Kill his son. God the Father SENT his ONLY son to fulfill the law and the prophets which he did.
God the Son choose to die as the sin offering for all mankind in FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW.
There is NO FORGIVENESS of sin without sacrifice. THAT is God's law. you do not have to like it but it is the unchanging requirement of God since the foundation of the law.
I do not bear the burden of Adam and Eve (A Catholic church notion). I am held accountable for MY SINS as you will be and the punishment for that sin is death and eternal separation from God.(Rom 6:23, Heb 9:22)
I repeat: Islam DOES NOT follow the law of God, the Prophets of God, nor the Messiah himself who all plainly, clearly, and precisely told you that there is no forgiveness without sacrifice.
@jorsak I'm not mocking God, you are! Claiming God to be part of a trinity when he is infact ONE. Look, Jesus never preached the trinity and neither does the word exist in the whole Bible itself. When you say God the Father, that God is different to God the son and the holy spirit, the 3 can never be one and it will never make sense. There's either 1 or 3 Gods.
#1. You most certainly are mocking God. And I quote you,"evil God" "laughable trinity." You will be held accountable for every word you speak. As I have stated: You may not understand or accept the Bible, but it is quite another thing to mock.
#2. In Genesis 2:24 God states that husband and wife are ECHAD (One). He uses the EXACT same word for describing husband and wife as ONE that He applies to himself (Deut 6:4).
@jorsak Exactly, God Himself claims to be ECHAD meaning ONE, did God say I'm three in 1 or 1 in three? NO. Did Jesus preach trinity? NO! And if you want to prove to me that the Bible is the word of God and Quran isn't, then step up to the challenge of the Quran and produce a chapter like it. The shortest chapter is 3 ayats (verses). You will never do it, and this is a direct challenge from the Quran 1400 years standing.
"God states that husband and wife are ECHAD (One)"
TWO beings (Husband and wife) are ECHAD! ONE! Just like God is ECHAD! ONE!
Produce a chapter like the Qur'an????? What a subjective and utterly foolish challenge. I could be William Shakespeare and all you or any other biased and blinded Muslim would have to do is say, "It's not as beautiful as the Qur'an."
Ridiculous. God's law, prophets, and Messiah prove Islam is a lie.
@jklharry So let me see, Father is God, Son is God, Holy Spirit is God, but there's not 3 Gods but 1 God...what language are you speaking Joe? I mean come on, there's either 3 separate individuals or there's 1 God. There can never be 1 God in three persons, it doesn't make any sense rationally. And if the challenge from the Quran is so foolish, then step up to the challenge! Allah is challenging you in the Quran, there are coptic christians, but noone has EVER met the challenge.
@jklharry A few lessons for you muslim. OK! There are 2 words for One is Hebrew. First there is Yachid which means absolute unity. Then there is ECHAD which means composite or compound unity. Now if your English is not so good I suggest you find out what composite or compound means then come back and discuss this. When ever the Bible describes God as One the word used is ECHAD not Yahchid. Christanity says God is a compound or composite unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. ECHAD!
@jklharry The word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible or mentioned by Jesus but Jesus clearly teaches the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). So what if theologians and Christians want to call this the Trinity? It changes nothing. I'll give you this analogy, the Father is like the infinite power that generates the Lamp (bulb) who is like the Son. The Holy Spirit is the Light generated from the power through the Lamp. The power, the lamp and light are One!
@sabathiel01 Did Jesus say I am God? Did Jesus say Holy Spirit is God? No. Jesus said worship the Father alone. He said I'll teach you how to pray. He said my Father is greater than I, greater than all. He said many other things which directs you to the unthinkable notion of one God, not a triune God. If the 4 gospels were inspired by God, why so many contradictions? Is God dumb?
Did Jesus say "I am not God don't worship me" when He was worship at numeorus times by His disciples and accepted without correcting or rebuking them? What kind of prophet accepts worship without rebuking his followers? This is the problem with muslims they cannot stick to the topic when ever they have been proven wrong but divert the issues by bringing up new topics. The clear thing is that the word used for One is ECHAD and it means compound or composite unity not yachid which absloute unity.
There are many verses where it says Jesus was worshiped. Here is one for you to check out. Matthew 28:9! Did He say to His disciples "I am not God don't worship me"? No! A prophet is not God and acceptes worship is not a prophet. He is accepting blasphemy. It is the duty of any prophet to rebuke & correct anyone who worship him. Jesus accepted worship. Jesus also accepted being called "my Lord & my God" (John 20:28). Did Jesus say "don't call me God I am not God"? NO! He praised Thomas' faith!
Jesus also claimed to have all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus claimed to share the Father's glory before the creation of the world (John 17:5). Jesus claimed everything that belonged to the Father also belonged to Him (John 16:15). What kind of prophet is this who has equal powers with God? God came to earth to DEMONSTRATE HIS HOLY RIGHTEOUS CHARACTER and TO EXPRESS HIS SUPREME LOVE!!! He proves He is righteous & proves His love so we know He is worthy of worship.
This is the problem with most muslims on Youtube they are silly and uneducated who cannot think independently. When you say a challenge to produce 3 verses like it what is it exactly are you looking for? Like what? What qualifies to be "like it"? And who decides if something is like it or better than it or equal to it? YOU?????? Your god?????? How stupid is this challenge???? Who is the judge? And what are his judging criteria? All you have to say is "no it is not like the quran"!
You think there are contradictions because you fail to understand what the verses really mean. You pick and choose what verses you like and ignore the verses that you don't like. You fail to see that you didn't interpret them correctly in light of the greater context of the Bible which reconciles what appears to you on face value a contradiction. The Father is greater than the Son in the sense that the Son follows the will of the father but Jesus has equal powers with the Father.
This is my favorite topic. God is a righteous God right? You'd say of course He is rightoeous not bad. Now is humility part of the character of a righteous person? Of course because the opposite of humble is arrogant & an arrogant person is not righteous. Now my God demonstrated Humility by leaving all His glory in heaven to come to earth to serve humanity as a humble man because humility is part of the character of a RIGHTEOUS GOD! When did your god show any humility? Is your god righteous? No!
@sabathiel01 Hold on, you just said God is a person?? Why did God need to come down to earth and show his humility? What was the need? To die for our sins? Is sin inherited? Am I responsible somehow or is someone else responsible for what Adam and Eve did? Dumb Christian...
Your god never demonstrated he is righteous god. He never expressed any humility which means he is an arrogant selfish god. He never made any sacrifices for you which means he has not proven his love for you. He never proved he is worthy of worship but expects you to worship him out of blind faith alone. My God did so many things for me. My God proves He has a superior character than your god. CHECKMATE! God died on the cross for me. That is a big sacrifice and love is making sacrifices!
@sabathiel01 "God died on the cross for me". Exactly, your God is weak and pathetic, he died. HAHAHAHAH how can God die. Theologically you are talking out your backside.
My God may show some weakness because you see humility & love as weak! I see it as great strength & proof of a superior character. Your god may look powerful in your eyes but he fails to show any humility & supreme love. Hitler was powerful but he was powerfully evil. Mother Theresa looks weak but she is loving, humble & supreme in character. You worship power alone. We worship power & righteousness in the form of supreme character! My God is righteous, your god is evil! You mock righteousness!
Love is an action or a deed. Love is what you do not just what you say. Saying "I love you" alone means nothing unless it is backed up by deeds or action. Anyone can say "I love you" but not anyone can demonstrate that love with real action. Real love often involves making sacrifices for the ones you love. My God doesn't just say "I love you" but shows it with real action & real sacrifice. What sacrifice did your god make? Who has proven His love? Your god or mine? Who has a superior character?
@sabathiel01 God showed his love to his creation by providing them with everything on Earth from food to shelter to clothing. Righteous prophets who delivered the correct message. That's how God showed his love...killing his innocent Son for the sake of mankind is evil, and if you are telling me God showed his love by killing his son for you and me then you have a very weak understanding of what love is my friend.
Tell me does God punish innocent people? NO! When God flooded the earth at the time of Noah what sins did the innocent babies and children do? Why did they get punished as well? Is God unjust and punish innocent people? Explain that! The Father has no shape or form. He has no body. He is a Spirit and He dwells in the Son in full power, full glory and full authority (Colossians 2:9). The Son is God expressed in human bodily form. The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
@jklharry Tell me does God punish innocent people? NO! When God flooded the earth at the time of Noah what sins did the innocent babies and children do? Why did they get punished as well? Is God unjust & punish innocent people? Explain that! The Father has no shape or form. He has no body. He is a Spirit and He dwells in the Son in full power, full glory and full authority (Colossians 2:9). The Son is God expressed in human bodily form. The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
@jklharry Tell me does God punish innocent people? NO! When God flooded the earth at the time of Noah what sins did the innocent babies and children do? Why did they get punished as well? Is God unjust and punish innocent people? Explain that! The Father has no shape or form. He has no body. He is a Spirit and He dwells in the Son in full power, full glory & full authority (Colossians 2:9). The Son is God expressed in human bodily form. The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
@jklharry Tell me does God punish innocent people? NO! When God flooded the earth at the time of Noah what sins did the innocent babies and children do? Why did they get punished as well? Is God unjust and punish innocent people? Explain that!
@sabathiel01 You asked does God punish innocent people...err he killed his own son. Before that, sin was inherited. Everyone was somehow responsible for the original sin that Adam did yet he never asked permission of any of those who were "saved" by Jesus. This is a joke lol.
@jklharry You didn't answer my question? You are running away from my question. What sins did the babies and children do at the time of the great flood during the time of prophet Noah? Were they evil babies or children to be punished by God? The same with Sodom and Gomorrah! Why did God destroy everyone there including babies & children? What sins did they commit? Is God unjust punishing innocent people? God didn't kill Jesus you idiot. The Romans did! People have free will to do bad things. LOL
@sabathiel01 You contradict yourself. You say The Romans killed Jesus but before that you said God (jesus) came to die for us? He was either murdered or he committed suicide? Which happens to be a sin, so your God sinned? lol.
@jklharry Jesus came to die because all humans must die. Do you expect God to come to earth as a human and then live forever as a human being? Of course He must die and stop being a human. The point is that He died a glorious martyr not just die because of old age or sickness. This is the sacrifice He makes like any martyr makes a great sacrifice. He didn't kill Himself like muslim suicide bombers. Anyone who has enemies like Jesus and takes them on like Jesus did is bound to get into trouble.
The Father has no shape or form. He has no body. He is a shapeless Spirit and He dwells in the Son in full power, full glory and full authority (Colossians 2:9). The Son is God expressed in human bodily form. The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) That is why Jesus "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) and said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me"(John 10:38). Jesus also said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father" (John 14:9).
@sabathiel01 ou said the father has no form or body...but the son does. then you say the son and the father are the same being so in that case the father does have a form and shape. but then you say no that's the son jesus. so...therefore jesus is either the son of god or god himself....make up your mind.
The father and the Son are not the same being! The father is the Father. The Son is the Son. The Father dwells in the Son in full power, glory and authority. The Spirit of the Father dwells in the Son. They are One in unity! Just like oxygen is in me but I am not oxygen and oxygen is not me. You gotta be stupid not to understand this. Does oxygen have any shape or form? NO! Do I have a shape or form? Yes, a human form! The Father is the power that generates the bulb. Holy Spirit is the light!
@jklharry Simple question again. Anyone who cannot show any humility is arrogant. Anyone arrogant cannot be righteous. When did your god show any humility? NEVER!!!!! That is because he is arrogant. He cannot show any humility so he is not a righteous god. We don't have the same God end of argument. When did you God make any sacrifices for you? When did he prove his love by putting your interest and welfare above his own interest and welfare? NEVER!!! My God has a superior character! PERIOD!
@sabathiel01 Why would God have his own interests and welfare? Seems to me like you're bringing God down to the relative world and humanising him. Oh wait, you worship a human anyway in Jesus...My God has blessed me with 2 eyes, 2 hands, 2 feet, clothes, food, shelter...and if that's not enough blessings and love i don't know what is. My God doesn't need to die for me to prove his love.
My God blesses me with 2 eyes, 2 hands, 2 feet etc as well. Even atheists are given all those so big deal! My God goes further than that by dying for my sins and takes away the penalty of sin. Justice requires all sins to be punished. We all sin! If a judge forgives someone who rapes and murders your mother would you say justice has been done? Sin must be paid in the name of justice. Jesus took the demand of Divine justice by absorbing the sins of believers. Justice done mercy made possible!
@jklharry When we sin we owe our lives to God to be punished. Jesus paid our debt of sinning by absorbing the cost of sin which is death. To forgive someone's debt someone has to pay the cost of that debt or the person forgiving the debt must absorb the cost of that debt. If you owe me $1000 someone has to make a sacrifice of $1000 to be paid to me. Or if I want to forgive your debt I have to sacrifice losing $1000. $1000 don't just appear out of nowhere just because I forgive your debt! LOL
@sabathiel01 No. When we sin, we repent. We don't believe someone else paid for our sins. That's arrogance and if that's the case, you might aswell fornicate for the rest of your life and go on a murder spree, commit highway robberies and what not because Jesus paid for it all..it's a stupid stupid belief you have there.
@jklharry Only an evil person like you would think once Jesus died for our sins then you can go sinning forever. Don't you have any sense of decency or gratitude and respect the suffering and sacrifice made for you like dying for your sins. The Bible says clearly anyone who keeps on sinning intentionally after accepting God's mercy and grace is trampling and making unholy the Spirit of grace. They will be punished more severely (read Hebrews 10:26-29). You must be evil to think the way you do!
@sabathiel01 No I don't have any sense of decency or gratitude for someone dying for my sins because as a Muslim I'm responsible for my own actions and words. I don't need a Man-God myth to die for me. Jesus was our prophet sent to the lost sheep of Israel to preach monotheism, not to be worshipped. Neither Jesus nor anyone else died for my sins, and if I want my sins forgiven I turn to the one true God, Allah.
In Christianity God is more glorified than in islam. In Christianity God does a lot more for His creation than in islam. I am saved not because of my own works or my attempts to obtain salvation but I am saved because of what God has done for me. I am saved by His righteousness & His works. I don't save myself. I have a Saviour. I am saved by the grace of God. The grace means something that cannot be earned & is a free undeserved gift. In the process God is glorified for what He has done for me
@jklharry As I said the Father is an invisible shapeless and formless Spirit. You cannot see the Father not even in heaven but you can see the Father through the Son who is King of heaven and all creation and sits on a throne in heaven. The Son is a Spirit being in human form. The Father dwells in the Son in His fullness. The Son is God in bodily form. The Son who is spirit assumes a flesh and bones human existence when He was born as Jesus Christ. He died and became Spirit again!
@sabathiel01 So you just said you cannot see the Father not even in heaven? What about Moses, he saw the father...and Jacob saw the Father...this is in your own Bible..? The son is God in bodily form? So who was the son praying to...himself? LOL
@jklharry Moses didn't see God. He saw a burning bush! LOL Jacob never saw God either unless you want to give me the verse where it says He saw God. LOL Jesus prayed to God who dwells within Himself. I have given you the verses where Jesus says "I and the Father are One" & "God dwells in fullness in the Son in bodily form". God is not out there but dwells in your heart, soul and mind in every true believer. In Jesus God dwells in full power, full glory & full authority. I already told you this!
@sabathiel01 Moses didn't see God? Then explain this "Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent." (Exodus 33:11)
I quote, 'just as a man speaks to his friend'. God spoke to Moses face to face. in
Moses spoke to God face to face is a figure of speech you stupid idiot. Moses never literally saw God's face. Moses saw & talked to a burning bush. The Bible says no one can or see God. The moment you see God then you limit the infinite with a physical description. How can you see infinity? God can only be seen through His image which is God the Son or God expressed in human form. No one can see the Father. Look the fact is that you have been caught with your pants down in this debate many times
@sabathiel01 Exodus 33:20-23. If you bother to read that in your Bible you'll see God talking to Moses about Moses seeing God's back parts...or back side...however you want to put it. First you tell me noone has seen God, but I just showed you a verse where Moses did see God. Genesis 32:30. This verse clearly says Jacob saw God face to face..but let me guess...figure of speech? LOL
Christians believe Jesus is God coming in the flesh in human form. God the Father cannot be seen and has no human form. Christians believe Jesus is the God of the Old Testament coming to earth in human form. So anyone who has seen God in the Bible is in fact seeing God the Son who has a human form. For example Abraham was visited by 3 men and one of them is actually the LORD God (Genesis 18:1-15). This proves that God has a human form and is a man. So the Lord God in the Old Testament is Jesus.
Look you worship power alone not power and righteousness. If a righteous person is patient & fights evil with love, kindness, patience & not quick to use force or fight back you see this kind of righteousness as weakness or pathetic. God is all powerful yes but when He came to earth He becomes a role model for all mankind. He leads as a human being by example as well. In heaven He leads by command. As a role model Jesus shows what a true believer should be like. You expect Him to be an atheist?
@sabathiel01 If my God wasn't righteous I'd be worshipping Satan. Explain to me exactly how God isn't righteous in Islam? Because he didn't die for us? He created the heavens and the earth, created us perfectly and provided us with everything to live a decent and healthy life...but because he didn't die for me on a cross he all of a sudden isn't righteous? Btw...have you read about Jesus and the sign of Jonah? I bet you haven't.
The god called allah is satan deceiving muslims claiming to be the One True God. Just because someone comes to me in dressed as a king and claims to be the One True King of England doesn't make him the One True King of England if his attributes doesn't fit the One True King of England. Allah is not righteous because He is lack humility. Your god never displayed any humility like my God. A righteous person must have the quality of humility or else he is arrogant. Arrogance is never righteous.
Allah has never expressed true love. True love being the love that is expressed through sacrifice. My God doesn't just make a sacrifice to express His true love but expresses SUPREME sacrifice. Your god who is in fact satan who denies God ever made a supreme sacrifice and expressed supreme humility because He cannot match the the character of the One True God. So he lied to muhammad & muslims! Yes, satan deceived you! Your god lacks these qualities my God has because he hasn't got them.
@jklharry "But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Jesus tells you EXACTLY what the sign of Jonah was. "so the Son of Man will be THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the heart of the Earth."
There is no question about the sign of Jonah. By the way, did you know Jonah DIED inside the belly of the whale?
@jorsak First of all, show me the verse where it says Jonah died in the belly of the fish? Because as far as I'm concerned with what I'm reading in the Bible, it says he prayed to Jehovah from the belly of the fish. I did not know dead people can pray. Amazing isn't it?? As for the 3 days and 3 nights, you're wrong...
@jklharry Ok. Let's review some basic Hebrew right quick. Sheol is the term used for the grave. It is never used to describe the location of the living. (Google that for further info)
"I called out of my distress to the LORD, And He answered me I cried for help from the depth of Sheol; You heard my voice." John 2:2
Jonah cried out from the grave. He DIED. And Yes, dead people most certainly do pray. Do you believe that the soul perishes after death? Of course not!
Please see Luke 16:22-24 where in we see "23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me."
So YES, the dead to cry out.
Let us FURTHER examine the EVIDENCE of Jonah's death.
In verse 3, Jonah is cast into the ocean and the waves engulf him. In verse 5 he is engulfed to the point of death and the weeds of the ocean wrap around his head. In verse 6 he has (cont.)
sank to the "Roots of the mountain." The expression "The earth and it's bars surround me forever" is also another Jewish expression of death.
So you want to argue that a man who has sank to the bottom of the ocean, has seaweed wrapped around his neck, has Earth's bars around him forever, and is described as being in THE GRAVE, etc. was ALIVE?
@jorsak First of all, Jesus hadn't gone for 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus was supposedly crucified mid-day on Friday, so Friday by Friday night he was "dead", saturday day he was "dead", saturday night he was "dead", sunday morning he had left his "tomb", that's, if you count properly, 2 nights and a day...not 3 days and 3 nights. The sign of the prophet Jonah is just as Jonah was alive, so was Jesus alive all the way through. He wasn't killed.
@jklharry #1. Jesus NEVER states "Just as Jonah was alive." He plainly states, "Just as Jonah WAS THREE DAYS..." It is very plain, clear, and simple. Do not ADD YOUR WORDS to scripture in order to support YOUR theology.
Lastly, any part of a day in Jewish culture is considered a day. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are three days. Jesus said exactly what he meant and he did exactly that just as scripture plainly states.
@jorsak "But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." That is part of what you quoted me from the scripture...right? Now the word SIGN is synonymous for the word miracle in your Bible...right? What's so miraculous about three days and 3 nights? I could go missing for 3 years or 3 months...where is the miracle? The miracle is you expect a man to die and he doesn't die,that's the miracle. They asked him for one, and he hinted at one. Nothing miraculous about the days...
@jklharry My friend, perhaps it is the obviousness that is causing you the difficulty. Jesus DIED (as Jonah did) for THREE DAYS and CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD after being beaten beyond recognition, scourged, and nailed to a tree. All of which was in specific fulfillment of prophecy (See Isaiah 53:4-5, 10, 12, Psalm 22:16, etc.)
I don't know about you, but THAT is EXTREMELY miraculous and it is THAT singular message that his disciples preached everywhere they went at the expense of their (Cont.)
Read what his disciples stated. "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" 1 Peter 1:3
Acts 2:23: " Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death."
preached everywhere they went and it cost all of them their lives accept for John who was exiled to the Isle of Patmos for the remainder of his years.
Death and resurrection was the miracle - three days in the grave DEAD and then rising; the SIGN OF JONAH.
Truly ask yourself how miraculous it would be to APPEAR dead and then actually NOT be dead for three days. THAT is no miracle my friend. Let's be intellectually honest here.
@jklharry The facts remain. My God doesn't lack humility your god does. Hence my God has a righteous quality that your god doesn't have. My God is supremely more righteous than your god but equally as powerful although as a human He didn't use His omnipotent power. You see this righteous quality as weak and pathetic because you cannot appreciate true righteousness. You mock righteousness like kindness, patience, love, supreme sacrifice, humility etc because you desire a powerful but evil god.
Muhammad at the beginning thought his source of revelations are demonic. He thought he was demon possessed and thought he was being bugged by an evil spirit. He was so traumatised by his demonic experience he wanted to commit suicide by throwing himself from the mountain. No prophet in the Bible who met God or God's angel or Gabriel had this kind of trauma or thought they had a demonic experience. After Waraqah told him he met angel Gabriel muhammad changed his mind. What does waraqah know?
My God does everything that your god does but goes the extra mile by making a supreme sacrifice to come to earth as a humble human being leaving all His power and glory in heaven and then die a glorious martyrs death. Evil muslims cannot see this as a different kind of inner spiritual strength and spiritual victory because you are blinded by earthly glory and earthly strength. There are certain things your god won't do or cannot do because His power is limited to what you consider as possible.
Why don't you answer me on my question of why did God punish children and babies during the great flood at Noah's time and Sodom and Gomorrah? Does God punish innocent people? What sins did they do? I have proven how silly muslims are when they believe muslim leaders like when Deedat says Thomas was saying "oh my God" because he was shocked to see Jesus alive. This proves Deedat is a liar so what is the point of listening to his other points. Go to the second page for my other comments.
@sabathiel01 You tell me...why did God flood the people in Noah's time? Why did God punish the people in the time of Sodom and Gomorrah? Well...we could ask the same question relating to today's world. Why is God letting people and children die in Palestine...why is God letting people starve in Africa? Ever thought of it like that?
The difference between what happened at the flood at Noah's time & Sodom and Gomorrah & the natural disasters today is that at Noah's time & Sodom & Gomorrah God specifically intervene in nature to PUNISH the people at that time. The Bible & the quran says God made those things happen because it was a punishment. Natural disasters today are caused by nature. There is nothing & no one saying God made them happen as a specific punishment. Nature caused it to happen not as punishments.
There is a difference between an act of nature & an act of God. God doesn't sit up there pushing buttons or making commands saying "there should be flood there", "there should be earthquakes there", "there should be sunshine there" . God doesn't have to be unnecessarily busy doing all those things. He creates nature & the laws of nature under scientific laws to operate automatically & He sits back & watches. Every time someone has sex God say "oh I'm gonna give her a baby". It is automatic.
However at certain times God intervenes in mankind's history or in nature. So at the time of Noah's flood and Sodom and Gommorah it was not an act of nature because the Bible and the quran specifically says God punished those people & made things happen. So now the question remains if the Bible & the quran specifically says they were acts of God which were punishments then what sins did those babies & children do? Muslims says babies are not sinners. Does god punish the innocent? Is God unjust?
An act of nature is when a scientist mixes a man's sperm and a female's egg & the result is artificial insemination leading to a baby. This is natural process under the laws of science not God saying "argh sperm was mixed with a female egg by a scientist so I am gonna create a baby". Even if you don't accept there are certain things being acts of nature you still have to explain why God punished innocent babies in an earthquake? Babies are not sinners as islam says? Go to the second page!
Christians don't just worship power but character also. We worship a loving, righteous God who is able to make great sacrifices for His creation & able to show humility & He proves His love & righteous character with deeds not just words. Allah never demonstrated supreme love to the extent that my God did. Your god never demonstrated any humility. Your god has an inferior character to my God. He is arrogant & selfish. Who is the One true God? The superior or the inferior in character? Checkmate!
@sabathiel01 Your God is the same as my God, the Father that is. My God was not a living breathing man who according to you died, my God is ever lasting and nothing is like him or equal to him. My God doesn't die or come out of a virgin. Jesus is a very loved and respected prophet in Islam, but not God.
Abraham loved God so much that he was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac (in islam it is Ishmael). Do you think sacrificing your own Son for someone else is not love? & you claim to know what love is. Are you saying Abraham is a bad person for wanting to sacrifice his son because he loves God? Jesus at least was willing to be sacrificed & obeyed the will of the Father. The Father loves mankind so much like Abraham loves God so much. Isaac (Ishmael) didn't even know he was going to be sacrificed.
@jklharry Another analogy. Time comprises of past, present and future. Is the past time? Absolutely! Is the present time? Of course! Is the future also time? Most definitely! Are the three one? Sure! Are they ECHAD? You bet. The quran's challenge to produce another chapter is silly? By whose standards are we to judge if there is another produced work like a chapter in the quran? Your standard, my standard or someone else's standard? All you have to do is say "no that's not as good as the quran".
@sabathiel01 So it comes down to comparing your God with time, to compare God with a Lamp, what next? LOL you Christians sure make me laugh. The Quran you read was obviously not in the original Arabic text, but there are Coptic Christians who would read the original Arabic as it was revealed and not a translation and ADMIT, as they have done to me and various others, that they don't have the ability to match what is written because of it's richness.
@jklharry Comparing God to time or a lamp?????? It is called an analogy you uneducated dumb muslim. Look up what "analogy" means in the dictionary and educate yourself. The whole point of giving you the analogy of time & lamp is to show you how 3 separate concepts can be 1. Past, present and future are 1 and yet they are 3 separate concepts and all 3 are all an aspect of time. You have been proven wrong because Father, Son and Holy Spirit can be 1 and still all be God as proven by the analogy.
@sabathiel01 So what you're telling me is Jesus is God, then in that respects God died? God was circumcised? God cried? God was given birth to by Mary? LOL who's making the mockery of God...me or you?
So what if God came to earth as a man and then died? Do you know what death means? Being human is a temporary condition. The flesh dies but the spirit doesn't die. You think when Jesus died on the cross His spirit died to? You think He ceased to exist? And you say you are not stupid? Jesus was spirit before He was born as a human. When He died He became a Spirit again. His spirit didn't die! He was a human temporarily. So what if He cried as a human or was circumcised? Humans do these things!
@sabathiel01 Being Human is temporary...correct. So why would God do something so un-god like and become human. That is not a godly thing to do. Once God becomes human he becomes limited, a limited being cannot be omniscient or omnipotent, so that limited being cannot be God. BASIC!
My God created us to be humans. He doesn't think being human is something to be ashamed of. Being human is a great privilege & we should thank God for making us to be human. You seem to be thinking that being human is something vile or disgusting that God should not come down as a human being. Just like your god is like a king who considers being a peasant as a vile and disgusting to be he is unwilling to leave his palace to be a peasant to show his humility & love. Selfish, arrogant & evil god.
@sabathiel01 So you worship a God who went to the toilet? A God who was born of a woman? A God born of a woman cannot be God because God cannot ever be born. A God must always be everlasting and the mere fact Jesus Christ was born of a woman means he was not God. If that is the logic you want to follow then Mary should have a higher ranking than Jesus as Mary created God. See how stupid it sound??
@jklharry If God can perform miracles by walking on water and suspend the laws of physics then God cannot perform miracles by suspending the laws of logic. Just because our finite minds cannot accept or comprehend it doesn't mean God cannot do it. To say God cannot do it is to limit God and put him into your little box. How can the finite understand the infinite? Just because your limited mind think it is possible doesn't mean it is in actual fact impossible. Let God be God & do what He wishes!
If God wants to come down to earth as a man & limits Himself temporarily then that is His right. Who am I or you to say God cannot do this or cannot do that? I am not the one limiting God like you. To me God is free to do what He wishes. Let God be God! There is a difference between God as a Spirit in heaven & God assuming a human identity on earth. Being human is like wearing the clothes of the flesh temporarily. That is showing humility by leaving all His glory in heaven by making a sacrifice.
@sabathiel01 If Jesus was God, he would say it. He never said it. Don't quote me anything out of context because it'll just make you seem stupid. Produce the verses where Jesus says I am God and/or worship me.
Look I never quoted out of context. And if I did you cannot just say it is out of context but you have to demonstrate it is out of context by showing what is exactly the context and how I took it out of context. Anyone can jump up and say "that is out context" even idiots like you or 5 year old kids but can they prove their claim it is out of context! LOL I have given you verses which clearly shows how Jesus accepted being worship (in context) & Jesus never said "I am not don't worship me".
Any righteous & humble human being will never say He is God or worship me. So you expect God who came to be a righteous humble human being to make an arrogant pompous self-serving claim like that? I question the character of any self-proclaimed messiah or God who makes statements like that. It reflect who they really are rather than prove what they are claiming is true. Anyone can say "I am God worship me". It means nothing but to actually be seen as God & worshiped is a much harder thing to do.
@jklharry Who are you to tell what God can or cannot do? If God wants to be a human to express His love for mankind and demonstrate His Holy righteous character and get circumcised and cry who are you to say He cannot do that? Let God be God and let Him to do what ever He wants. Don't limit God by saying He shouldn't do this or do that. You are the one mocking God not me! The flesh is only like clothes that the Spirit wear. Your Spirit leave your human body when you die. The same with God! Dumb!
@sabathiel01 Again, did Jesus say I am God? Did he? Did he say I am the Father who has come to you in flesh? Did he say that..where? I also think you have misunderstood the Thomas bit. Thomas thought Jesus was dead and when he saw him alive and well, in a state of shock he said My god and my lord, as we would. it's a commonly used phrase to express shock...Jesus didn't say yes I am God.
@jklharry This is just why muslims are so stupid and gullible when they trust their muslim leaders who lie to them. The expression "oh my God" or "my God" to express shock or amazement is an English expression. Not all languages express shock or amazement this way. I speak another languages and it doesn't make sense when you are shock or amazed to say "my God" or "oh my God". This expression doesn't exist amongst Jews or in the Greek language which the Bible was written in! Stop being an idiot!
More than that no one even in the English language expresses shock or amazement by saying "my Lord AND my God". You either say "my Lord" alone or "my God" alone not both!!! Jews don't use the word God loosely like this to express shock. This is misusing the word God & breaking the Ten Commandments. Jesus would not have praised Thomas for doing this. Ask any Jew do they say "oh my God"? NO they don't! The original Greek which the New Testament was written in say "the Lord of me & the God of me".
Who are you kidding here.?You think Christians like me are uneducated third world idiots like many muslims. As I said the expression "oh my God" or "my God" to express shock is not known in the Hebrew language or Greek language. It is mainly a common English expression to express shock. It is when muslims make idiotic arguments like this is when muslims are exposed for being liars or gullible idiots! Jesus accepted being called God by Thomas & praised his faith. He didn't say "I am not God".
@sabathiel01 So is this what Jesus taught you? To call Muslims dumb uneducated third world Muslims? I say, he would be damn right ashamed of you. If this is the only case you have of someone "worshipping" Jesus, then it shows he was't worshipped at all. One case, that's all the christians can ever show. Thomas this and that. He never said worship me and he never said I am god.
@jklharry Jesus called His disciples dumb when they couldn't understand what He was saying. Are you saying when you act and talk dumb I am supposed to lie and make you feel good about yourself by calling your smart and educated? You wish! I gave you one clear example where Jesus was worshiped and He accepted without saying "I am not God don't worship me" I can give you much more but you cannot even deal with 1 verse so what's the point in giving you more. Deal with that 1 verse first!
@sabathiel01 Like I said until you find the verse where Jesus himself says I am God or Worhsip me, then I will accept him as my saviour. Like I said, Thomas' "worship" was figurative speech, and if we're squabbling over whether Jesus demanded or accepted worship or not it obviously means there's a dispute. Now looking at your evidence in terms of the Bible, he never claimed to be God or wanted worship. He came to serve the will of God.
@jklharry You keep making mistakes after mistakes. Thomas didn't worship Jesus. He called Jesus "my Lord and my God" and Jesus accepted it and even praised Thomas. What figure of speech, You even accept idiots or liars like Deedat who blatantly lies or make a mistake saying Thomas was shocked seeing Jesus alive by saying the typical English expression "oh my God" as if this expression exist in the Hebrew language! LOL We are squabbling about this because you are an idiot.
Jesus never said "I am the Messiah" either or He said "I am only a prophet" but that doesn't stop stop you from believing Jesus is the Messiah or a prophet. I can also be an idiot & be difficult & make up excuses by saying unless you show me a verse in the Quran where it says "the Bible has been corrupted" then I won't accept it or where Muhammad says "I am the last & final prophet". So by the same logic if I am squabbling over this it means there is a dispute. I told you you are an idiot! LOL
Matthew 28:9 "They came to Him, clasped His feet and worshiped Him". Did Jesus say "I am not God don't worship me"? A prophet should say this to correct & rebuke blasphemy or false worship. Jesus accepted worship & as a Jew who believes in One God He knows His disciples are worshiping the One True God of the Jews! These are not Hindus who believe in many gods! Jesus never directly said "I am the messiah" either but it is obvious He is the Messiah. Go to the 2nd page to see my other comments.
@sabathiel01 What you quoted was Matthew's Gospel...I'm asking for what Jesus directly said, not what Matthew thought he said. Matthew wasn't even there at the time!
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Hi jorsak, i want to ask you something about the original sins. Because for me it just not just for a person to suffer for other person's sin..
fadzayat 6 months ago
Here is the Problem.
Nature of God -> All knowing, Eternal, Self-Sufficient
Nature Of Man -> Not All knowing, Mortal, Needy.
How can God be All knowing and Not all knowing BOTH at the same time?
h2dude69 6 months ago
@h2dude69 The two natures did not mix. God remained God IN the human form.
Has God moved on this earth? Then God moved among the finite molecules. Did God's nature mix with those molecules and become finite? No. So, how did his Spirit move here before without becoming finite?
With our minds very little is possible. With God, all things are possible. God deemed it necessary that the Messiah would be both fully human and fully divine without the two natures mixing or mingling. (cont.)
jorsak 6 months ago
If God's Spirit can move here on Earth (Which I'm sure you would accept it has) then he has interacted with the finite many times without BECOMING the finite.
It would be no different for him to decide to take on the human form and interact with humanity in that form.
With God all things are possible and more importantly, His scriptures flatly and plainly tell you it was so.
Blessings,
Joe
jorsak 6 months ago
I often wonder how muslims can take the same bible and disprove the diety of Jesus. Its so sad that there taught to filter the clear teaching of the new testament through the quran. It frightens me knowing the truth. My heart breaks knowing they realy believe what they think is true and our dedicating there lives to a false prophet. How sad a day for them on judjment day and they realize the truth. God bless you brother hopefully there eyes can be opened!!!
peterlabrie1 1 year ago
But the problem is many Muslims hear Christians say God died on the cross. Christ is fully God but He died as a Man , God cannot die or be seperated Son from Father as God Jesus was forsaken as Man only. Muslims stumple on this point more than any other when hearing God died on the cross
polopowers1 1 year ago
@polopowers1 True. A common mistake (Both Christian and Muslim) is in understanding the fully dual nature of The Messiah. God never died on the cross as the very idea violates the nature of God (Eternal).
Many Christians and certainly all Muslims I have encountered are unaware that Jesus, when he credi from the cross (Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabacthani) was simply quoting the Messianic Psalm 22:1 which is all about the crucifixion as to say, "This is fulfilled in your sight today."
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak Great understanding be blessed
polopowers1 1 year ago
you are nice man. I can see judging from your the way to talk and etc. But it is a confusing theology. I must say. Jesus as God and as human?. Religion is not suppose to confuse. Religion is suppose to be simple. Anyway nice to know Christians like you as well as other nice and kind hearted Christians all over. May God bless you and your family and guide you to success and happiness in this life and the hereafter. :)
sarcromal 1 year ago
I don't think I ever replied to this. I apologize greatly. Thank you for your kind words. To me it isn't confusing at all. But then, honestly, I believe that Jesus' deity is something only revealed by the Father. When Jesus asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" They all answered much as the Muslim - in essence, that you are a prophet.
But Peter, when asked, responded, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." and for this Jesus commended Peter and said (Cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
to him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."
You see Peter made a distinction between prophets and Jesus. Jesus is the unqiue Messiah who scripture calls El-Gibbor (Mighty God) and Avi-Ad (Everlasting Father) in Isaiah 9:6 and he sees him as the unique Son of the living God.
Again, thank you for your kind words. Blessings on you and yours.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 1 year ago
so it worked
okay let me just give you my opinion not as a Muslim just as an everyday person who heard this not putting in my lessons from the quran or anything into play
so God sent himself down to sacrifice himself for our dirty sins so that we are forgiven how does that sound right to anyone no offense I don't want to make you think I am an ass I really do respect you and your opinion plus I like the way you state your opinion I just want to say to me that doesn't sound right
3ooyoon 1 year ago
@3ooyoon Hey my friend. As long as your response is genuine and stated respectfully it will never offend me. I've been called every name in the book and I've just learned to get use to it here. SO thanks for watching and sharing your genuine questions.
#1. Let me ask you something before I start digging in. Do you first believe that God has the power / ability to control the universe/molecules in such as to form a human and then use those molecules to interact with his creation; (cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
or in a less wordy way, do you believe that God has the power / ability to take on human form?
PS. Thanks for the patience and effort in getting this to work. Sorry I didn't reply yesterday. We were having 4th of July celebration family time.
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak God has the ability to do anything
but the whole idea that one man has to pay for our sins it not something I could ever believe in and the whole idea that a human that is so easily hurt could be god is wrong see I had an accident last october I got 3rd degree burns on my hands and I almost burnt the house down with oil I got lucky
but this is how the story goes I was making tea for me and my friend and I turned on the wrong burner there was oil on the other one and when I saw(cont.)
3ooyoon 1 year ago
@3ooyoon smoke I went to take it outside of the house me being stupid and not thinking it had a lid but it was boiled for so long even that didn't matter while I was half way to the door it burst into flames in my hands and fell to the floor
this is where things get strange it gets all over the wood floors and carpets and they went into flames then suddenly it was like someone blew out a candle and they all truned off
the day before I was wearing my wedding dress to show it to my family and
3ooyoon 1 year ago
@3ooyoon there was a lady there we know who has what we call the evil eye she is basically a jinx if she gets jealous something bad happens to you so before we showed her the dress and after we showed her the dress we all prayed together to spare me from her eyes
I sear to you that without that prayer I wouldn't be here today because the frames got in my face and it didn't burn I stepped in the boiling oil to run out of the house but they didn't burn
I think Allah spared me
3ooyoon 1 year ago
@3ooyoon what I am trying to get at is that I saw how easily flesh burns and how fast a life can be taken away and I saw so much more because I have a lot of these kind of story within my family some so mind blowing its unbelievable and I don't think Jesus was god because god created everything we see smell hear touch feel everything
he can't be weak like a human he can't die he is eternal he can't be a spirit he is God he created spirits he can't pay for our sins because he created us to sin
3ooyoon 1 year ago
@3ooyoon and to repent and he can't do these mortal acts of sleeping eating beating breathing he is above all that and greater then all that I know its a simple explanation and you probably have something amazing up your sleeve but I am not the most educated in religion I won't lie but I love it with all my heart
maybe someday I will have the knowledge to give you a good argument but right now I am only learning I am only 19 :P so I tried my best
3ooyoon 1 year ago
@3ooyoon Thanks for sharing your story and I'm thankful that you were not hurt more than you were.
i can promise you this, I will not try to TRICK you or trap you in an argument. I do not believe that that is intellectually honest and it annoys me when people attempt it. I have seen so many different arguments that I usually know where the person is headed when they ask the fake up front question. So... I promise that if I ask a question it is only to understand what you believe. (cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
It will not be so I can come back and say, "AHA! I got you because of X."
I asked if you believed God had the power / ability to become human. It seems you have answered both yes and no. You said at the opening of your answer, "God has the ability to do anything..." But you finished with, "he can't be weak like a human he can't die he is eternal..."
So, let's get some more clarity on this because I cannot explain the Christian view until I know more where you are at. I think some (cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
of the confusion is that you are attributing the human attributes of weakness to God and finding conflict in that. God can't be weak. God can't die, etc. In this we agree. The Christian view is NOT that God died, etc but that the Messiah was BOTH fully human and fully God. God did not eat, drink, sleep, etc. The HUMAN aspect of the messiah (Jesus) did.
That is what this video is about.
So do you believe that God could create a human and exist in this human fully?
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak 1st off I want 2 say thanks ur honestly a great person u have a big heart & ur very understanding
as 4 the rest okay I get were ur going yeah I believe that god could do that but then again why? why would he come down 2 deal with us & 2 hear us when he is always with every1 & hearing every1 at all times there is no difference
I believe in the messiah but he is not God in any way hes a miracle of a human being his birth says it all
3ooyoon 1 year ago
@jorsak if god can create anything out of nothing then why can't he make a virgin woman pregnant and give his powers to a human being
meh anyways I am just glad I made a new friend who is so passionate about god and loves him so much see to me that is better then an atheist friend who walks around anything that has to do with religion and is just a nice person
again I want to thank you for your amazing manners and personality
may Allah bless you and show you so much love and forgiveness
3ooyoon 1 year ago
@3ooyoon 1st thank you for your kind words. I'm glad we had the chance to meet and chat and get to know a bit more about each other. Youv'e asked good questions that I hope to shed some light on. I'm going to do something I don't normally do and ask a favor of you.
Can you go to biblegateway and paste the following after the /
passage/?search=hebrews%2010:1-24&version=NLT
I would like you to read Hebrews 10:1-24. Then I would to discuss the great ? you have asked.
jorsak 1 year ago
@3ooyoon Had a chance to read it yet?
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak yeah a while back sorry just didn't have the time to answer back
I really don't have much time today I am heading out for work in like 10 minutes and I have to get ready so sorry bud I will answer you back asap okay
again I am really sorry
3ooyoon 1 year ago
@3ooyoon No rush. Just when you have a chance and then we can pick up the discussion again.
jorsak 1 year ago
@3ooyoon Just checking in again. We didn't get to finish our discussion. Hope you are well.
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak HEY u
sorry buddy lots of things going on right now
but I am good how r u?
as for our discussion so I read it soo far back I don't even remember & the link isn't working
what I can tell u is that I am soo bad at being a good muslim lol I haven't read the quran that well 2 start reading the bible but inshallah (God willing) I plan on learning from the bible as well I personally think all muslim men & women should educate themselves by reading both & learning from them as well
3ooyoon 1 year ago
Thank you for this. God bless.
proteusmoon 1 year ago
Thank you for the kind words.
jorsak 1 year ago
Again, you're quoting Philippians, which is not Jesus speaking, but PAUL. PAUL said that, Jesus never said that! lol what a waste of a video
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry @jklharry
Paul wrote God's word through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit just as Moses, Isaiah, and David did before him.
Do you acknowledge that sin requires sacrifice for forgivenss? If not, then you reject Moses and the Law of God. Do you acknowledge that God foretold through his prophets that the Messiah would come to die for our sins? If not, then you reject the prophets (Isaiah 53) and that he specifically would die by crucifixion? (Psalms 22)
jorsak 1 year ago
Do you acknowledge that the Messiah himself told you that he came to die (Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:33-34) and that he told you specifically that he would die by crucifixion (Matthew 20:19, 26:2) and that he told you exactly WHY he must die? (Matthew 26:28).
If you are unwilling to acknowledge the whole of God's word then it does not surprise me that you do not like Paul who so clearly stated the Deity of Christ.
Blessings,
Joe
jorsak 1 year ago
PS. I am also interested in your defense of dismissing Paul. Paul met the resurrected Jesus and was called specifically into ministry by Jesus.
Please explain to me how Paul is NOT a minister of God and be mindful that every defense you present will be presented against Mohamed doubly.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak Typical Christian. Again, Matthew and Mark said that, JESUS NEVER SAID THOSE WORDS, THESE ARE THE WORDS OF MATTHEW MARK LUKE AND JOHN. Get hold of a red letter Bible sir, where everything Jesus is supposed to have said is in red, you'll find funnily enough only 10% is in red, everything else is black. Find me the verse where Jesus says I am God, or Worship Me. And when quoting, give me the full context, otherwise anything you say makes no sense.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry Typical Muslim. Ignore responses. Do not address rebuttals. Post propaganda and rhetoric. I've already refuted this comment before you even made it.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were called disciples of God and they recorded GOD'S WORD just as the called disciples before them. They spoke God's words as did Moses, Isaiah, and David before him. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," (2 Timothy 3:16)
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak As Muslims we believe in the books that came before the Quran, we believe in the Torah, Psalms and the Gospels, but the Bible has been fiddled around with constantly and has been changed around continously, if you are a true believer in God you'd be honest and agree with me that I'm right. I do not say the WHOLE Bible is not the word of God, there are parts in which are God's word, but having seen the various contradictions in the 4 Gospel writers, that book holds no value to me.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry "As Muslims we believe in the books that came before the Quran, we believe in the Torah, Psalms and the Gospels,"
False. As I have already illustrated:
#1. The law requires sacrifice for sin (Leviticus 16:15-16, 17:11). Muslims reject this.
#2. The prophets clearly spoke of the coming Messiah as divine (Isaiah 9:6). Muslims reject this.
#3. The prophets clearly identify the role of the Messiah as coming to die for the sins of the world. (Isaiah 53). Muslims reject this. (Cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
#4. The Gospel writers record from Jesus' own mouth that he came to die (Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:33-34) and that he told in advance HOW he would die (Matthew 20:19,26:2) and exactly WHY he would die (Matthew 26:28).
The Muslim rejects ALL of God's word. The Muslim follows false teachings given by Satan in a cave some 600 years AFTER the word of God was completed.
You have NO basis on which to assert that scripture has been changed. Demonstrate that ONE BIT of the law which requires (cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
sacrifice has changed or the prophet Isaiah's writings which speak of the Messiah dying for our sins has changed. You cannot.
You keep posting your rhetoric with no supporting argument because you cannot rebut what I have stated and backed up with numerous supporting verses.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak Yeah, the same "Satan" who revealed the Quran in which a whole chapter is dedicated to the mother of Jesus (chapter 19, Maryam), the same Satan who confirmed the teachings that came before him from Moses and Jesus (pbut), the same Satan who was prophecised in John 16:13, the same Satan who was prophecised in Deutronomy 18:18, yeah, that's Satan alright.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry Yes. The very same Satan. What more like Satan can you get to deceive you into not beliving the entirety of God's word.
God's law says sacrifice for sin is REQUIRED. Islam says just ask for forgiveness - no sacrifice. God's prophets said the Messiah would come to die for the sins of the world. Islam says this is untrue. God's word QUOTES the Messiah himself saying he came to die for the sins of many. Islam makes him a liar.
(cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
Yes. JUST LIKE SATAN. He deceives you into thinking you could ever earn salvation without shed blood as required by the law. JUST LIKE SATAN to deny the prophets. JUST LIKE SATAN to turn you from the revealed truth of God.
Salaam,
Joe
PS. Still waiting on your defense for the dismisal of Paul as a prophet of God.
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak If you consider the Bible to be God's word in it's entirety then you must also consider the edited VERSIONS, edited by scholars and doctors of divinity to be the word of God. Some Bibles you find verses and in other's you don't find verses...why is this? The Bible says itself anyone who adds or deletes from the scripture, the plagues of this book be upon them...so what's this nonsense that's going on??
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry
#1. Only the KJV contains verses that are not common to modern translation. All modern translations agree on the verses of the Bible.
#2. There are 16 verses (depending on how you count passages) that the KJV contains that are not in modern translations.
#3. These 16 verses represent .004% of the 7958 verses of the new testament and call into question not 1 single doctrine of the Christian faith as they are either inconsequential or repeated elsewhere in scripture.
(cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
#4. The ADDITIONAL passages that the KJV contain were the result of scribal notation mistakenly being considered part of the verse order and as more original manuscript data has been studied these verses have been accurately removed.
#5. it is NO DIFFERENT than Uthman burning copies of inaccurate Qur'an verses.
#6. The bottom line is that you haven't a leg to stand on. The law has not been changed. Sacrifice is REQUIRED for the forgiveness of sin and Islam does not fulfill the law of God.
jorsak 1 year ago
#7. You refer Revelation 22:18-19 which speaks of not adding a verse or taking a verse away. Each book of the Bible is just that - a book. The Bible is a collection of 66 Books. Revelation is a Book in and of itself. Note one verse has been added or subtracted to Revelation and thus no plague visited upon.
#8. you must repent for your belief that God Almighty is incapable of keeping his word pure. Either Uthman burned verses that were inaccurate JUST AS Christian scholars
(cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
have corrected the erroneous verses of the KJV or Uthman burned accurate holy scripture.
You cannot see that it is exactly the same because your bias does not allow it.
As I said, at the end of the day a genuine and honest study of God's word reveals that Islam does not follow the Law of God, his Prophets or The Messiah.\
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak So your evil God killed his own Son, or himself, since they are both part of a laughable trinity, to save mankind from eternal doom. You know how ridiculous that sounds? That we should bear the burden of Adam and Eve (as)?? Is God that evil that he should punish us for something we didn't do, yet when Lot has sex with his daughters God says nothing...?
jklharry 1 year ago
"So your evil God..."
Immediately false.
"God killed his own Son, or himself, since they are both part of a laughable trinity,"
#1. You will stand condemned before God for your words for mocking the Holy God. even if you do not agree with my faith, it is rather arrogant to mock - be warned: you will be held accountable for every word you speak.
#2. God the Father did not Kill his son. God the Father SENT his ONLY son to fulfill the law and the prophets which he did.
(cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
God the Son choose to die as the sin offering for all mankind in FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW.
There is NO FORGIVENESS of sin without sacrifice. THAT is God's law. you do not have to like it but it is the unchanging requirement of God since the foundation of the law.
I do not bear the burden of Adam and Eve (A Catholic church notion). I am held accountable for MY SINS as you will be and the punishment for that sin is death and eternal separation from God.(Rom 6:23, Heb 9:22)
(cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
I repeat: Islam DOES NOT follow the law of God, the Prophets of God, nor the Messiah himself who all plainly, clearly, and precisely told you that there is no forgiveness without sacrifice.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak I'm not mocking God, you are! Claiming God to be part of a trinity when he is infact ONE. Look, Jesus never preached the trinity and neither does the word exist in the whole Bible itself. When you say God the Father, that God is different to God the son and the holy spirit, the 3 can never be one and it will never make sense. There's either 1 or 3 Gods.
jklharry 1 year ago
#1. You most certainly are mocking God. And I quote you,"evil God" "laughable trinity." You will be held accountable for every word you speak. As I have stated: You may not understand or accept the Bible, but it is quite another thing to mock.
#2. In Genesis 2:24 God states that husband and wife are ECHAD (One). He uses the EXACT same word for describing husband and wife as ONE that He applies to himself (Deut 6:4).
Tell me, is God laughable for doing so?
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak Exactly, God Himself claims to be ECHAD meaning ONE, did God say I'm three in 1 or 1 in three? NO. Did Jesus preach trinity? NO! And if you want to prove to me that the Bible is the word of God and Quran isn't, then step up to the challenge of the Quran and produce a chapter like it. The shortest chapter is 3 ayats (verses). You will never do it, and this is a direct challenge from the Quran 1400 years standing.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry
Do you even READ the responses? I mean seriously!
"God states that husband and wife are ECHAD (One)"
TWO beings (Husband and wife) are ECHAD! ONE! Just like God is ECHAD! ONE!
Produce a chapter like the Qur'an????? What a subjective and utterly foolish challenge. I could be William Shakespeare and all you or any other biased and blinded Muslim would have to do is say, "It's not as beautiful as the Qur'an."
Ridiculous. God's law, prophets, and Messiah prove Islam is a lie.
jorsak 1 year ago
@jklharry So let me see, Father is God, Son is God, Holy Spirit is God, but there's not 3 Gods but 1 God...what language are you speaking Joe? I mean come on, there's either 3 separate individuals or there's 1 God. There can never be 1 God in three persons, it doesn't make any sense rationally. And if the challenge from the Quran is so foolish, then step up to the challenge! Allah is challenging you in the Quran, there are coptic christians, but noone has EVER met the challenge.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry A few lessons for you muslim. OK! There are 2 words for One is Hebrew. First there is Yachid which means absolute unity. Then there is ECHAD which means composite or compound unity. Now if your English is not so good I suggest you find out what composite or compound means then come back and discuss this. When ever the Bible describes God as One the word used is ECHAD not Yahchid. Christanity says God is a compound or composite unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. ECHAD!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@jklharry The word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible or mentioned by Jesus but Jesus clearly teaches the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). So what if theologians and Christians want to call this the Trinity? It changes nothing. I'll give you this analogy, the Father is like the infinite power that generates the Lamp (bulb) who is like the Son. The Holy Spirit is the Light generated from the power through the Lamp. The power, the lamp and light are One!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 Did Jesus say I am God? Did Jesus say Holy Spirit is God? No. Jesus said worship the Father alone. He said I'll teach you how to pray. He said my Father is greater than I, greater than all. He said many other things which directs you to the unthinkable notion of one God, not a triune God. If the 4 gospels were inspired by God, why so many contradictions? Is God dumb?
jklharry 1 year ago
Did Jesus say "I am not God don't worship me" when He was worship at numeorus times by His disciples and accepted without correcting or rebuking them? What kind of prophet accepts worship without rebuking his followers? This is the problem with muslims they cannot stick to the topic when ever they have been proven wrong but divert the issues by bringing up new topics. The clear thing is that the word used for One is ECHAD and it means compound or composite unity not yachid which absloute unity.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 Show me...where was Jesus worshipped...show me where did Jesus claim any sort of divinity???
jklharry 1 year ago
There are many verses where it says Jesus was worshiped. Here is one for you to check out. Matthew 28:9! Did He say to His disciples "I am not God don't worship me"? No! A prophet is not God and acceptes worship is not a prophet. He is accepting blasphemy. It is the duty of any prophet to rebuke & correct anyone who worship him. Jesus accepted worship. Jesus also accepted being called "my Lord & my God" (John 20:28). Did Jesus say "don't call me God I am not God"? NO! He praised Thomas' faith!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
Jesus also claimed to have all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus claimed to share the Father's glory before the creation of the world (John 17:5). Jesus claimed everything that belonged to the Father also belonged to Him (John 16:15). What kind of prophet is this who has equal powers with God? God came to earth to DEMONSTRATE HIS HOLY RIGHTEOUS CHARACTER and TO EXPRESS HIS SUPREME LOVE!!! He proves He is righteous & proves His love so we know He is worthy of worship.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
This is the problem with most muslims on Youtube they are silly and uneducated who cannot think independently. When you say a challenge to produce 3 verses like it what is it exactly are you looking for? Like what? What qualifies to be "like it"? And who decides if something is like it or better than it or equal to it? YOU?????? Your god?????? How stupid is this challenge???? Who is the judge? And what are his judging criteria? All you have to say is "no it is not like the quran"!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
You think there are contradictions because you fail to understand what the verses really mean. You pick and choose what verses you like and ignore the verses that you don't like. You fail to see that you didn't interpret them correctly in light of the greater context of the Bible which reconciles what appears to you on face value a contradiction. The Father is greater than the Son in the sense that the Son follows the will of the father but Jesus has equal powers with the Father.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
This is my favorite topic. God is a righteous God right? You'd say of course He is rightoeous not bad. Now is humility part of the character of a righteous person? Of course because the opposite of humble is arrogant & an arrogant person is not righteous. Now my God demonstrated Humility by leaving all His glory in heaven to come to earth to serve humanity as a humble man because humility is part of the character of a RIGHTEOUS GOD! When did your god show any humility? Is your god righteous? No!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 Hold on, you just said God is a person?? Why did God need to come down to earth and show his humility? What was the need? To die for our sins? Is sin inherited? Am I responsible somehow or is someone else responsible for what Adam and Eve did? Dumb Christian...
jklharry 1 year ago
Your god never demonstrated he is righteous god. He never expressed any humility which means he is an arrogant selfish god. He never made any sacrifices for you which means he has not proven his love for you. He never proved he is worthy of worship but expects you to worship him out of blind faith alone. My God did so many things for me. My God proves He has a superior character than your god. CHECKMATE! God died on the cross for me. That is a big sacrifice and love is making sacrifices!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 "God died on the cross for me". Exactly, your God is weak and pathetic, he died. HAHAHAHAH how can God die. Theologically you are talking out your backside.
jklharry 1 year ago
My God may show some weakness because you see humility & love as weak! I see it as great strength & proof of a superior character. Your god may look powerful in your eyes but he fails to show any humility & supreme love. Hitler was powerful but he was powerfully evil. Mother Theresa looks weak but she is loving, humble & supreme in character. You worship power alone. We worship power & righteousness in the form of supreme character! My God is righteous, your god is evil! You mock righteousness!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
Love is an action or a deed. Love is what you do not just what you say. Saying "I love you" alone means nothing unless it is backed up by deeds or action. Anyone can say "I love you" but not anyone can demonstrate that love with real action. Real love often involves making sacrifices for the ones you love. My God doesn't just say "I love you" but shows it with real action & real sacrifice. What sacrifice did your god make? Who has proven His love? Your god or mine? Who has a superior character?
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 God showed his love to his creation by providing them with everything on Earth from food to shelter to clothing. Righteous prophets who delivered the correct message. That's how God showed his love...killing his innocent Son for the sake of mankind is evil, and if you are telling me God showed his love by killing his son for you and me then you have a very weak understanding of what love is my friend.
jklharry 1 year ago
Tell me does God punish innocent people? NO! When God flooded the earth at the time of Noah what sins did the innocent babies and children do? Why did they get punished as well? Is God unjust and punish innocent people? Explain that! The Father has no shape or form. He has no body. He is a Spirit and He dwells in the Son in full power, full glory and full authority (Colossians 2:9). The Son is God expressed in human bodily form. The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
sabathiel01 1 year ago
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@jklharry Tell me does God punish innocent people? NO! When God flooded the earth at the time of Noah what sins did the innocent babies and children do? Why did they get punished as well? Is God unjust & punish innocent people? Explain that! The Father has no shape or form. He has no body. He is a Spirit and He dwells in the Son in full power, full glory and full authority (Colossians 2:9). The Son is God expressed in human bodily form. The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
sabathiel01 1 year ago
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@jklharry Tell me does God punish innocent people? NO! When God flooded the earth at the time of Noah what sins did the innocent babies and children do? Why did they get punished as well? Is God unjust and punish innocent people? Explain that! The Father has no shape or form. He has no body. He is a Spirit and He dwells in the Son in full power, full glory & full authority (Colossians 2:9). The Son is God expressed in human bodily form. The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@jklharry Tell me does God punish innocent people? NO! When God flooded the earth at the time of Noah what sins did the innocent babies and children do? Why did they get punished as well? Is God unjust and punish innocent people? Explain that!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 You asked does God punish innocent people...err he killed his own son. Before that, sin was inherited. Everyone was somehow responsible for the original sin that Adam did yet he never asked permission of any of those who were "saved" by Jesus. This is a joke lol.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry You didn't answer my question? You are running away from my question. What sins did the babies and children do at the time of the great flood during the time of prophet Noah? Were they evil babies or children to be punished by God? The same with Sodom and Gomorrah! Why did God destroy everyone there including babies & children? What sins did they commit? Is God unjust punishing innocent people? God didn't kill Jesus you idiot. The Romans did! People have free will to do bad things. LOL
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 You contradict yourself. You say The Romans killed Jesus but before that you said God (jesus) came to die for us? He was either murdered or he committed suicide? Which happens to be a sin, so your God sinned? lol.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry Jesus came to die because all humans must die. Do you expect God to come to earth as a human and then live forever as a human being? Of course He must die and stop being a human. The point is that He died a glorious martyr not just die because of old age or sickness. This is the sacrifice He makes like any martyr makes a great sacrifice. He didn't kill Himself like muslim suicide bombers. Anyone who has enemies like Jesus and takes them on like Jesus did is bound to get into trouble.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
The Father has no shape or form. He has no body. He is a shapeless Spirit and He dwells in the Son in full power, full glory and full authority (Colossians 2:9). The Son is God expressed in human bodily form. The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) That is why Jesus "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) and said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me"(John 10:38). Jesus also said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father" (John 14:9).
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 ou said the father has no form or body...but the son does. then you say the son and the father are the same being so in that case the father does have a form and shape. but then you say no that's the son jesus. so...therefore jesus is either the son of god or god himself....make up your mind.
jklharry 1 year ago
The father and the Son are not the same being! The father is the Father. The Son is the Son. The Father dwells in the Son in full power, glory and authority. The Spirit of the Father dwells in the Son. They are One in unity! Just like oxygen is in me but I am not oxygen and oxygen is not me. You gotta be stupid not to understand this. Does oxygen have any shape or form? NO! Do I have a shape or form? Yes, a human form! The Father is the power that generates the bulb. Holy Spirit is the light!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@jklharry Simple question again. Anyone who cannot show any humility is arrogant. Anyone arrogant cannot be righteous. When did your god show any humility? NEVER!!!!! That is because he is arrogant. He cannot show any humility so he is not a righteous god. We don't have the same God end of argument. When did you God make any sacrifices for you? When did he prove his love by putting your interest and welfare above his own interest and welfare? NEVER!!! My God has a superior character! PERIOD!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 Why would God have his own interests and welfare? Seems to me like you're bringing God down to the relative world and humanising him. Oh wait, you worship a human anyway in Jesus...My God has blessed me with 2 eyes, 2 hands, 2 feet, clothes, food, shelter...and if that's not enough blessings and love i don't know what is. My God doesn't need to die for me to prove his love.
jklharry 1 year ago
My God blesses me with 2 eyes, 2 hands, 2 feet etc as well. Even atheists are given all those so big deal! My God goes further than that by dying for my sins and takes away the penalty of sin. Justice requires all sins to be punished. We all sin! If a judge forgives someone who rapes and murders your mother would you say justice has been done? Sin must be paid in the name of justice. Jesus took the demand of Divine justice by absorbing the sins of believers. Justice done mercy made possible!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@jklharry When we sin we owe our lives to God to be punished. Jesus paid our debt of sinning by absorbing the cost of sin which is death. To forgive someone's debt someone has to pay the cost of that debt or the person forgiving the debt must absorb the cost of that debt. If you owe me $1000 someone has to make a sacrifice of $1000 to be paid to me. Or if I want to forgive your debt I have to sacrifice losing $1000. $1000 don't just appear out of nowhere just because I forgive your debt! LOL
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 No. When we sin, we repent. We don't believe someone else paid for our sins. That's arrogance and if that's the case, you might aswell fornicate for the rest of your life and go on a murder spree, commit highway robberies and what not because Jesus paid for it all..it's a stupid stupid belief you have there.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry Only an evil person like you would think once Jesus died for our sins then you can go sinning forever. Don't you have any sense of decency or gratitude and respect the suffering and sacrifice made for you like dying for your sins. The Bible says clearly anyone who keeps on sinning intentionally after accepting God's mercy and grace is trampling and making unholy the Spirit of grace. They will be punished more severely (read Hebrews 10:26-29). You must be evil to think the way you do!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 No I don't have any sense of decency or gratitude for someone dying for my sins because as a Muslim I'm responsible for my own actions and words. I don't need a Man-God myth to die for me. Jesus was our prophet sent to the lost sheep of Israel to preach monotheism, not to be worshipped. Neither Jesus nor anyone else died for my sins, and if I want my sins forgiven I turn to the one true God, Allah.
jklharry 1 year ago
In Christianity God is more glorified than in islam. In Christianity God does a lot more for His creation than in islam. I am saved not because of my own works or my attempts to obtain salvation but I am saved because of what God has done for me. I am saved by His righteousness & His works. I don't save myself. I have a Saviour. I am saved by the grace of God. The grace means something that cannot be earned & is a free undeserved gift. In the process God is glorified for what He has done for me
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@jklharry As I said the Father is an invisible shapeless and formless Spirit. You cannot see the Father not even in heaven but you can see the Father through the Son who is King of heaven and all creation and sits on a throne in heaven. The Son is a Spirit being in human form. The Father dwells in the Son in His fullness. The Son is God in bodily form. The Son who is spirit assumes a flesh and bones human existence when He was born as Jesus Christ. He died and became Spirit again!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 So you just said you cannot see the Father not even in heaven? What about Moses, he saw the father...and Jacob saw the Father...this is in your own Bible..? The son is God in bodily form? So who was the son praying to...himself? LOL
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry Moses didn't see God. He saw a burning bush! LOL Jacob never saw God either unless you want to give me the verse where it says He saw God. LOL Jesus prayed to God who dwells within Himself. I have given you the verses where Jesus says "I and the Father are One" & "God dwells in fullness in the Son in bodily form". God is not out there but dwells in your heart, soul and mind in every true believer. In Jesus God dwells in full power, full glory & full authority. I already told you this!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 Moses didn't see God? Then explain this "Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent." (Exodus 33:11)
I quote, 'just as a man speaks to his friend'. God spoke to Moses face to face. in
jklharry 1 year ago
Moses spoke to God face to face is a figure of speech you stupid idiot. Moses never literally saw God's face. Moses saw & talked to a burning bush. The Bible says no one can or see God. The moment you see God then you limit the infinite with a physical description. How can you see infinity? God can only be seen through His image which is God the Son or God expressed in human form. No one can see the Father. Look the fact is that you have been caught with your pants down in this debate many times
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 Exodus 33:20-23. If you bother to read that in your Bible you'll see God talking to Moses about Moses seeing God's back parts...or back side...however you want to put it. First you tell me noone has seen God, but I just showed you a verse where Moses did see God. Genesis 32:30. This verse clearly says Jacob saw God face to face..but let me guess...figure of speech? LOL
jklharry 1 year ago
Christians believe Jesus is God coming in the flesh in human form. God the Father cannot be seen and has no human form. Christians believe Jesus is the God of the Old Testament coming to earth in human form. So anyone who has seen God in the Bible is in fact seeing God the Son who has a human form. For example Abraham was visited by 3 men and one of them is actually the LORD God (Genesis 18:1-15). This proves that God has a human form and is a man. So the Lord God in the Old Testament is Jesus.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 Exodus 33:20-23 speaks about Moses seeing God's back parts...erm...whatever that means. His arse?
jklharry 1 year ago
Look you worship power alone not power and righteousness. If a righteous person is patient & fights evil with love, kindness, patience & not quick to use force or fight back you see this kind of righteousness as weakness or pathetic. God is all powerful yes but when He came to earth He becomes a role model for all mankind. He leads as a human being by example as well. In heaven He leads by command. As a role model Jesus shows what a true believer should be like. You expect Him to be an atheist?
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 If my God wasn't righteous I'd be worshipping Satan. Explain to me exactly how God isn't righteous in Islam? Because he didn't die for us? He created the heavens and the earth, created us perfectly and provided us with everything to live a decent and healthy life...but because he didn't die for me on a cross he all of a sudden isn't righteous? Btw...have you read about Jesus and the sign of Jonah? I bet you haven't.
jklharry 1 year ago
The god called allah is satan deceiving muslims claiming to be the One True God. Just because someone comes to me in dressed as a king and claims to be the One True King of England doesn't make him the One True King of England if his attributes doesn't fit the One True King of England. Allah is not righteous because He is lack humility. Your god never displayed any humility like my God. A righteous person must have the quality of humility or else he is arrogant. Arrogance is never righteous.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
Allah has never expressed true love. True love being the love that is expressed through sacrifice. My God doesn't just make a sacrifice to express His true love but expresses SUPREME sacrifice. Your god who is in fact satan who denies God ever made a supreme sacrifice and expressed supreme humility because He cannot match the the character of the One True God. So he lied to muhammad & muslims! Yes, satan deceived you! Your god lacks these qualities my God has because he hasn't got them.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@jklharry "But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Jesus tells you EXACTLY what the sign of Jonah was. "so the Son of Man will be THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the heart of the Earth."
There is no question about the sign of Jonah. By the way, did you know Jonah DIED inside the belly of the whale?
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak First of all, show me the verse where it says Jonah died in the belly of the fish? Because as far as I'm concerned with what I'm reading in the Bible, it says he prayed to Jehovah from the belly of the fish. I did not know dead people can pray. Amazing isn't it?? As for the 3 days and 3 nights, you're wrong...
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry Ok. Let's review some basic Hebrew right quick. Sheol is the term used for the grave. It is never used to describe the location of the living. (Google that for further info)
"I called out of my distress to the LORD, And He answered me I cried for help from the depth of Sheol; You heard my voice." John 2:2
Jonah cried out from the grave. He DIED. And Yes, dead people most certainly do pray. Do you believe that the soul perishes after death? Of course not!
(cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
Please see Luke 16:22-24 where in we see "23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me."
So YES, the dead to cry out.
Let us FURTHER examine the EVIDENCE of Jonah's death.
In verse 3, Jonah is cast into the ocean and the waves engulf him. In verse 5 he is engulfed to the point of death and the weeds of the ocean wrap around his head. In verse 6 he has (cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
sank to the "Roots of the mountain." The expression "The earth and it's bars surround me forever" is also another Jewish expression of death.
So you want to argue that a man who has sank to the bottom of the ocean, has seaweed wrapped around his neck, has Earth's bars around him forever, and is described as being in THE GRAVE, etc. was ALIVE?
I'm sorry my friend, that is rather ludicrous.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak First of all, Jesus hadn't gone for 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus was supposedly crucified mid-day on Friday, so Friday by Friday night he was "dead", saturday day he was "dead", saturday night he was "dead", sunday morning he had left his "tomb", that's, if you count properly, 2 nights and a day...not 3 days and 3 nights. The sign of the prophet Jonah is just as Jonah was alive, so was Jesus alive all the way through. He wasn't killed.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry #1. Jesus NEVER states "Just as Jonah was alive." He plainly states, "Just as Jonah WAS THREE DAYS..." It is very plain, clear, and simple. Do not ADD YOUR WORDS to scripture in order to support YOUR theology.
Lastly, any part of a day in Jewish culture is considered a day. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are three days. Jesus said exactly what he meant and he did exactly that just as scripture plainly states.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 1 year ago
@jorsak "But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." That is part of what you quoted me from the scripture...right? Now the word SIGN is synonymous for the word miracle in your Bible...right? What's so miraculous about three days and 3 nights? I could go missing for 3 years or 3 months...where is the miracle? The miracle is you expect a man to die and he doesn't die,that's the miracle. They asked him for one, and he hinted at one. Nothing miraculous about the days...
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry My friend, perhaps it is the obviousness that is causing you the difficulty. Jesus DIED (as Jonah did) for THREE DAYS and CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD after being beaten beyond recognition, scourged, and nailed to a tree. All of which was in specific fulfillment of prophecy (See Isaiah 53:4-5, 10, 12, Psalm 22:16, etc.)
I don't know about you, but THAT is EXTREMELY miraculous and it is THAT singular message that his disciples preached everywhere they went at the expense of their (Cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
very own lives.
Read what his disciples stated. "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" 1 Peter 1:3
Acts 2:23: " Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death."
THAT was the message the disciples (Cont.)
jorsak 1 year ago
preached everywhere they went and it cost all of them their lives accept for John who was exiled to the Isle of Patmos for the remainder of his years.
Death and resurrection was the miracle - three days in the grave DEAD and then rising; the SIGN OF JONAH.
Truly ask yourself how miraculous it would be to APPEAR dead and then actually NOT be dead for three days. THAT is no miracle my friend. Let's be intellectually honest here.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 1 year ago
@jklharry The facts remain. My God doesn't lack humility your god does. Hence my God has a righteous quality that your god doesn't have. My God is supremely more righteous than your god but equally as powerful although as a human He didn't use His omnipotent power. You see this righteous quality as weak and pathetic because you cannot appreciate true righteousness. You mock righteousness like kindness, patience, love, supreme sacrifice, humility etc because you desire a powerful but evil god.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 Define righteousness...
jklharry 1 year ago
Muhammad at the beginning thought his source of revelations are demonic. He thought he was demon possessed and thought he was being bugged by an evil spirit. He was so traumatised by his demonic experience he wanted to commit suicide by throwing himself from the mountain. No prophet in the Bible who met God or God's angel or Gabriel had this kind of trauma or thought they had a demonic experience. After Waraqah told him he met angel Gabriel muhammad changed his mind. What does waraqah know?
sabathiel01 1 year ago
My God does everything that your god does but goes the extra mile by making a supreme sacrifice to come to earth as a humble human being leaving all His power and glory in heaven and then die a glorious martyrs death. Evil muslims cannot see this as a different kind of inner spiritual strength and spiritual victory because you are blinded by earthly glory and earthly strength. There are certain things your god won't do or cannot do because His power is limited to what you consider as possible.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
Why don't you answer me on my question of why did God punish children and babies during the great flood at Noah's time and Sodom and Gomorrah? Does God punish innocent people? What sins did they do? I have proven how silly muslims are when they believe muslim leaders like when Deedat says Thomas was saying "oh my God" because he was shocked to see Jesus alive. This proves Deedat is a liar so what is the point of listening to his other points. Go to the second page for my other comments.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 You tell me...why did God flood the people in Noah's time? Why did God punish the people in the time of Sodom and Gomorrah? Well...we could ask the same question relating to today's world. Why is God letting people and children die in Palestine...why is God letting people starve in Africa? Ever thought of it like that?
jklharry 1 year ago
The difference between what happened at the flood at Noah's time & Sodom and Gomorrah & the natural disasters today is that at Noah's time & Sodom & Gomorrah God specifically intervene in nature to PUNISH the people at that time. The Bible & the quran says God made those things happen because it was a punishment. Natural disasters today are caused by nature. There is nothing & no one saying God made them happen as a specific punishment. Nature caused it to happen not as punishments.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
There is a difference between an act of nature & an act of God. God doesn't sit up there pushing buttons or making commands saying "there should be flood there", "there should be earthquakes there", "there should be sunshine there" . God doesn't have to be unnecessarily busy doing all those things. He creates nature & the laws of nature under scientific laws to operate automatically & He sits back & watches. Every time someone has sex God say "oh I'm gonna give her a baby". It is automatic.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
However at certain times God intervenes in mankind's history or in nature. So at the time of Noah's flood and Sodom and Gommorah it was not an act of nature because the Bible and the quran specifically says God punished those people & made things happen. So now the question remains if the Bible & the quran specifically says they were acts of God which were punishments then what sins did those babies & children do? Muslims says babies are not sinners. Does god punish the innocent? Is God unjust?
sabathiel01 1 year ago
An act of nature is when a scientist mixes a man's sperm and a female's egg & the result is artificial insemination leading to a baby. This is natural process under the laws of science not God saying "argh sperm was mixed with a female egg by a scientist so I am gonna create a baby". Even if you don't accept there are certain things being acts of nature you still have to explain why God punished innocent babies in an earthquake? Babies are not sinners as islam says? Go to the second page!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
Christians don't just worship power but character also. We worship a loving, righteous God who is able to make great sacrifices for His creation & able to show humility & He proves His love & righteous character with deeds not just words. Allah never demonstrated supreme love to the extent that my God did. Your god never demonstrated any humility. Your god has an inferior character to my God. He is arrogant & selfish. Who is the One true God? The superior or the inferior in character? Checkmate!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 Your God is the same as my God, the Father that is. My God was not a living breathing man who according to you died, my God is ever lasting and nothing is like him or equal to him. My God doesn't die or come out of a virgin. Jesus is a very loved and respected prophet in Islam, but not God.
jklharry 1 year ago
Abraham loved God so much that he was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac (in islam it is Ishmael). Do you think sacrificing your own Son for someone else is not love? & you claim to know what love is. Are you saying Abraham is a bad person for wanting to sacrifice his son because he loves God? Jesus at least was willing to be sacrificed & obeyed the will of the Father. The Father loves mankind so much like Abraham loves God so much. Isaac (Ishmael) didn't even know he was going to be sacrificed.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@jklharry Another analogy. Time comprises of past, present and future. Is the past time? Absolutely! Is the present time? Of course! Is the future also time? Most definitely! Are the three one? Sure! Are they ECHAD? You bet. The quran's challenge to produce another chapter is silly? By whose standards are we to judge if there is another produced work like a chapter in the quran? Your standard, my standard or someone else's standard? All you have to do is say "no that's not as good as the quran".
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 So it comes down to comparing your God with time, to compare God with a Lamp, what next? LOL you Christians sure make me laugh. The Quran you read was obviously not in the original Arabic text, but there are Coptic Christians who would read the original Arabic as it was revealed and not a translation and ADMIT, as they have done to me and various others, that they don't have the ability to match what is written because of it's richness.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry Comparing God to time or a lamp?????? It is called an analogy you uneducated dumb muslim. Look up what "analogy" means in the dictionary and educate yourself. The whole point of giving you the analogy of time & lamp is to show you how 3 separate concepts can be 1. Past, present and future are 1 and yet they are 3 separate concepts and all 3 are all an aspect of time. You have been proven wrong because Father, Son and Holy Spirit can be 1 and still all be God as proven by the analogy.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 So what you're telling me is Jesus is God, then in that respects God died? God was circumcised? God cried? God was given birth to by Mary? LOL who's making the mockery of God...me or you?
jklharry 1 year ago
So what if God came to earth as a man and then died? Do you know what death means? Being human is a temporary condition. The flesh dies but the spirit doesn't die. You think when Jesus died on the cross His spirit died to? You think He ceased to exist? And you say you are not stupid? Jesus was spirit before He was born as a human. When He died He became a Spirit again. His spirit didn't die! He was a human temporarily. So what if He cried as a human or was circumcised? Humans do these things!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 Being Human is temporary...correct. So why would God do something so un-god like and become human. That is not a godly thing to do. Once God becomes human he becomes limited, a limited being cannot be omniscient or omnipotent, so that limited being cannot be God. BASIC!
jklharry 1 year ago
My God created us to be humans. He doesn't think being human is something to be ashamed of. Being human is a great privilege & we should thank God for making us to be human. You seem to be thinking that being human is something vile or disgusting that God should not come down as a human being. Just like your god is like a king who considers being a peasant as a vile and disgusting to be he is unwilling to leave his palace to be a peasant to show his humility & love. Selfish, arrogant & evil god.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 So you worship a God who went to the toilet? A God who was born of a woman? A God born of a woman cannot be God because God cannot ever be born. A God must always be everlasting and the mere fact Jesus Christ was born of a woman means he was not God. If that is the logic you want to follow then Mary should have a higher ranking than Jesus as Mary created God. See how stupid it sound??
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry If God can perform miracles by walking on water and suspend the laws of physics then God cannot perform miracles by suspending the laws of logic. Just because our finite minds cannot accept or comprehend it doesn't mean God cannot do it. To say God cannot do it is to limit God and put him into your little box. How can the finite understand the infinite? Just because your limited mind think it is possible doesn't mean it is in actual fact impossible. Let God be God & do what He wishes!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 If God comes to earth as a man...he limits himself. I don't need to limit him, God already did that from the Christians perspective.
jklharry 1 year ago
If God wants to come down to earth as a man & limits Himself temporarily then that is His right. Who am I or you to say God cannot do this or cannot do that? I am not the one limiting God like you. To me God is free to do what He wishes. Let God be God! There is a difference between God as a Spirit in heaven & God assuming a human identity on earth. Being human is like wearing the clothes of the flesh temporarily. That is showing humility by leaving all His glory in heaven by making a sacrifice.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 If Jesus was God, he would say it. He never said it. Don't quote me anything out of context because it'll just make you seem stupid. Produce the verses where Jesus says I am God and/or worship me.
jklharry 1 year ago
Look I never quoted out of context. And if I did you cannot just say it is out of context but you have to demonstrate it is out of context by showing what is exactly the context and how I took it out of context. Anyone can jump up and say "that is out context" even idiots like you or 5 year old kids but can they prove their claim it is out of context! LOL I have given you verses which clearly shows how Jesus accepted being worship (in context) & Jesus never said "I am not don't worship me".
sabathiel01 1 year ago
Any righteous & humble human being will never say He is God or worship me. So you expect God who came to be a righteous humble human being to make an arrogant pompous self-serving claim like that? I question the character of any self-proclaimed messiah or God who makes statements like that. It reflect who they really are rather than prove what they are claiming is true. Anyone can say "I am God worship me". It means nothing but to actually be seen as God & worshiped is a much harder thing to do.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@jklharry Who are you to tell what God can or cannot do? If God wants to be a human to express His love for mankind and demonstrate His Holy righteous character and get circumcised and cry who are you to say He cannot do that? Let God be God and let Him to do what ever He wants. Don't limit God by saying He shouldn't do this or do that. You are the one mocking God not me! The flesh is only like clothes that the Spirit wear. Your Spirit leave your human body when you die. The same with God! Dumb!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 Again, did Jesus say I am God? Did he? Did he say I am the Father who has come to you in flesh? Did he say that..where? I also think you have misunderstood the Thomas bit. Thomas thought Jesus was dead and when he saw him alive and well, in a state of shock he said My god and my lord, as we would. it's a commonly used phrase to express shock...Jesus didn't say yes I am God.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry This is just why muslims are so stupid and gullible when they trust their muslim leaders who lie to them. The expression "oh my God" or "my God" to express shock or amazement is an English expression. Not all languages express shock or amazement this way. I speak another languages and it doesn't make sense when you are shock or amazed to say "my God" or "oh my God". This expression doesn't exist amongst Jews or in the Greek language which the Bible was written in! Stop being an idiot!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
More than that no one even in the English language expresses shock or amazement by saying "my Lord AND my God". You either say "my Lord" alone or "my God" alone not both!!! Jews don't use the word God loosely like this to express shock. This is misusing the word God & breaking the Ten Commandments. Jesus would not have praised Thomas for doing this. Ask any Jew do they say "oh my God"? NO they don't! The original Greek which the New Testament was written in say "the Lord of me & the God of me".
sabathiel01 1 year ago
Who are you kidding here.?You think Christians like me are uneducated third world idiots like many muslims. As I said the expression "oh my God" or "my God" to express shock is not known in the Hebrew language or Greek language. It is mainly a common English expression to express shock. It is when muslims make idiotic arguments like this is when muslims are exposed for being liars or gullible idiots! Jesus accepted being called God by Thomas & praised his faith. He didn't say "I am not God".
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 So is this what Jesus taught you? To call Muslims dumb uneducated third world Muslims? I say, he would be damn right ashamed of you. If this is the only case you have of someone "worshipping" Jesus, then it shows he was't worshipped at all. One case, that's all the christians can ever show. Thomas this and that. He never said worship me and he never said I am god.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry Jesus called His disciples dumb when they couldn't understand what He was saying. Are you saying when you act and talk dumb I am supposed to lie and make you feel good about yourself by calling your smart and educated? You wish! I gave you one clear example where Jesus was worshiped and He accepted without saying "I am not God don't worship me" I can give you much more but you cannot even deal with 1 verse so what's the point in giving you more. Deal with that 1 verse first!
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 Like I said until you find the verse where Jesus himself says I am God or Worhsip me, then I will accept him as my saviour. Like I said, Thomas' "worship" was figurative speech, and if we're squabbling over whether Jesus demanded or accepted worship or not it obviously means there's a dispute. Now looking at your evidence in terms of the Bible, he never claimed to be God or wanted worship. He came to serve the will of God.
jklharry 1 year ago
@jklharry You keep making mistakes after mistakes. Thomas didn't worship Jesus. He called Jesus "my Lord and my God" and Jesus accepted it and even praised Thomas. What figure of speech, You even accept idiots or liars like Deedat who blatantly lies or make a mistake saying Thomas was shocked seeing Jesus alive by saying the typical English expression "oh my God" as if this expression exist in the Hebrew language! LOL We are squabbling about this because you are an idiot.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
Jesus never said "I am the Messiah" either or He said "I am only a prophet" but that doesn't stop stop you from believing Jesus is the Messiah or a prophet. I can also be an idiot & be difficult & make up excuses by saying unless you show me a verse in the Quran where it says "the Bible has been corrupted" then I won't accept it or where Muhammad says "I am the last & final prophet". So by the same logic if I am squabbling over this it means there is a dispute. I told you you are an idiot! LOL
sabathiel01 1 year ago
Matthew 28:9 "They came to Him, clasped His feet and worshiped Him". Did Jesus say "I am not God don't worship me"? A prophet should say this to correct & rebuke blasphemy or false worship. Jesus accepted worship & as a Jew who believes in One God He knows His disciples are worshiping the One True God of the Jews! These are not Hindus who believe in many gods! Jesus never directly said "I am the messiah" either but it is obvious He is the Messiah. Go to the 2nd page to see my other comments.
sabathiel01 1 year ago
@sabathiel01 What you quoted was Matthew's Gospel...I'm asking for what Jesus directly said, not what Matthew thought he said. Matthew wasn't even there at the time!
jklharry 1 year ago