The God(s) maybe the dreams of men

[BowlofIndoMee]

humans came first, personal gods came later

[SuperDelusionist]

@BowlofIndoMee then came the orgy at my house... then i came. :P

[TheSaarth]

excellent and very useful description, thanks mate.

[JohnF30Music]

who came first? gods or humans?

[82abhilash]

@JohnF30Music What came first, the chicken or the egg?

[inveidor]

@82abhilash

1. Humans

2. Egg, which contained the first chicken, laid by something closely genetically resembling a chicken, but one evolutionary step lower.

[lampeskjermer]

@82abhilash

the egg came millions of years before the modern chicken.

[deadgent]

rigvehda s got a lot of interesting myths about cosmogenesis involving sound and what today is called cymatics. beautyful stuff.

[parekh09]

WATCH_ _ ----->Scientific Verification of Vedic Knowledge in Hinduism - 2

[mohfoz77]

EXCELLENT.

CARL SAGAN is an inspiration.

[daddyrizla]

Being an atheist, I think the Hindu idea of creation, death and rebirth, is the most beautiful. I also think it is close to the truth.

[82abhilash]

I am an atheist, but I do not think I can not be a Hindu. It is not very easy to define who a Hindu is. No single book. No single prophet and today not restricted to one country any more. I equate Hinduism to a sincere intellectual experiment, which ultimately failed.

[daddyrizla]

Yeah, it seems to be more skeptical than other "religions", if that can be the right word to describe it. Anyway, I think it's a cool idea.

[82abhilash]

It boils down to you actually. There are lot of gullible Hindus.

[ohmShantih]

Well when you are not forced to follow specific narrow-minded, radical lifestyle just to hunt for a fictitious heaven full of 72 wh0res.

When you can remain an athiest while learning the techniques for personal enhancement, rational analysis to mind (on which science is working as well). Mathematics on which number system is based.

When you eliminate the illiteracy and get the Hindu education back - you'd find a lot of stuff for athiests worthy to be learned.

[82abhilash]

I am sure of it. In fact I am already finding lot of stuff worthy for any human being to learn within the books traditionally classified as 'Hindu Scripture'. In reality, they are expressions of universal knowledge that anyone can benefit from.

Perhaps I was wrong when I wrote some time back that Hinduism is a failed experiment. The people who saw the oncoming of their own dark ages (kali yug) and recognized their inability to stop it cannot be called failures.

[ohmShantih]

We call Vedas as supreme knowledge beyond human intervention because they are called sound of nature (shruti) or direct experience which is beyond thoughts of human mind and beyond arguments. Upanishads and Bhagwad Geeta are primary guiding texts.

Then come the various puranas/smritis which are interpretations/code of conducts resp. created by fellow Rishis for common humans. These are to be interpreted in-line with original shruti. These had been degenerated by through time.

[82abhilash]

Besides, in Hinduism it is not necessary to believe in a personal God. That is just one option, all be it a very popular option today.

[ohmShantih]

Yes. I do not believe in God, neither sky daddies.

Just science of your own self. Just sit at a place and try to be still while you observe your breath in organized sequence. Then try to watch your mind and see how it works. Watch it through third perspective - without associating yourself to any of thoughts its producing.

Try to read Bhagwad Gita (ignore the mystical aspects). Take a look if you can find any co-relation as how the mind works. How the intelligence (or buddhi) works...so on

[QWho2005]

@ohmShantih

Youtube doesn't fucking censor whore!

[redwrox]

Where is the quote "men may not be the dreams of the gods" from. Its not in rigveda mentioned here.Any help?

[TheOriginalkmno4]

Did you watch the entire clip? Going out on a limb here - I'd say the answer is 'no'.

[ucocksuckersporki]

the reason why india never got credit for it's achievements thnx to iluminati

-outsourcing(vedic knowledge) free of cost

-mighty indians never invaded barbarians but they did, india finally ended up paying heavy price

-today's eurocentric materialsm discredit spiritual india as mere idolators blocking the flow of age old wisdom to the world

-india allowed others(muslims) to her patience when indians shud have destroyed the vile civilization of mlechas

-tolerance

-cult historical info,racism

[ucocksuckersporki]

the western world is all about eurocentrism & tainted with racial ethnic stupidity..they used to consider other countries(india) as third world & bare bones in front of their so called deluxe civilization..we dont expect our fair share frm the west,we need not consider proving ourselves in frnt of dirty mlechas.we r fully capable & shall begin the dawn of a new world order with india where there is no synical west & a world free of muslims.

india attains salvation only with the death of islam

[ucocksuckersporki]

ur right,muslim invaders cud'nt have faced somebody of the caliber of maurya or asoka,when cat is away mice r at play,all they did was lie &cheat ,they only took advantage of our defensive policies,had we behaved like agressors &destroy their settlements in the earlier stages,this cancer called islam wud'nt have lived.besides muslims innovated in cheat,kill,plunder,rape &lie very early gold medalist in sloth ,may be they knew the age about to come is based on these qualities &their day has come

[SigDrums]

@ucocksuckersporki Jesus fucking christ man, calm the fuck down. These theories of yours are way of and your ideas are dangerous! Even if some of these are historical facts, it means nothing on this present day. You must never blame a child for the actions of it's ancestors.

[xlovenuggetx]

thank you for posting this. RIP carl sagan. i miss you.

[0musing]

About the "Hard Wired" comment - Pls. note that I am talking about abstract and complex/fundamental thinking. Algebra was NOT invented by the Arabs. In fact if you look up the link I had shared with you earlier, Indians were accustomed to solving linear and quadratic equations in the BC's. Also, progressions and other more complex math's problems. Arabs were synthesizers..they aggregated and renamed sciences in arabic and thus falsely got the credit. Check it yourself.

(1)

[0musing]

About Chinese and printing. Clearly printing does not fall in the realm of complex and abstract thoughts...more of a practical invention and the Chinese without taking any credit away from them, are another people who have been sorely hurt by eurocentrism. They have also been deprived of a lot of things which they should have been credited for...

However, look up for yourself the history of India. Indian philosophy, the vedas (earlier than 3500 BC) and so on..

[82abhilash]

You must know that 900 AD was not the first time the Indian subcontinent was invaded. And even then it was not an easy victory for the Islamic armies. And their success in Islamizing India was also limited. Same can be said about British successes in westernizing India. But don't you think that an enlightened civilization would also know of how to defend itself? That is why I feel we had lost the edge. The intelligence of its people where not being tapped effectively, petty kings had taken over.

[parekh09]

muslims were the first to invade, the aryan invasion is false, brought outto mae hinduism look bad. when british ruled india, they controlled everything. plus ...vedic is the only culture taht says that the earth is 4.6 billion years old, and universe is infinite...hindus were the most advanced back in the day, they were never barbaric, ppl cheated and won against them. there is no proof of the aryan invasion, except for old british scholors just saying there is. but now they proved it wrong.

[82abhilash]

No, they where not. And I am not speaking about any fictitious Aryan invasion. Before the Muslims, Alexander's army invaded India.

[82abhilash]

You must understand the conversation before calling people names and asking stupid questions. Those who are proud of the glories of their tradition must not turn a blind eye to their shortcomings. Even if you do, your enemy won't and they will use those short comings against you.

You are not interested in having an intelligent conversation, just bad mouthing. You do not even know to distinguish enemy from friend.

[ohmShantih]

Cannot distinguish anymore. All seems to be tapping to false shortcomings creeping in due to illiteracy.

The varna system is based on Karma (thoughts, speech and deeds). Human mind remains in 3 states of mind - sattva (enlightened), rajas (excited), tamasik(dull). Human choses his job according to his attitude. Due to some smrutis some (jati) classification was made. Spanish term Caste was introduced by British in 1891.

Just to much of mess in here - and seems no solution-perhaps predicted.

[82abhilash]

@ohmShantih

The solution will reveal itself in good time.

[82abhilash]

You know what I checked it. You are right. Are you familiar with the Astronomer Neil deGrasse Tyson, I once went to hear him speak and he was talking about 'Arabic' numerals and I asked him later if he knew they where Indian numerals. He said he did, but he called them that because they where so named. A linguistic coup.

[82abhilash]

But I am still uncomfortable with your claim that Indians have an intuitive capability to excel in education and cognition. I do not think it is true. Are you not making the same mistakes that colonial europeans made? Are you not moving from eurocentrism to indocentrism? And anyway abstract thought is less useful unless it can translate into real world practical inventions that can improve the quality of life and aid progress. In that society most people lived in villages and did not read.

[0musing]

This has been my observation. Given the small sample space I have been able to observe and also in my readings I am forced to conclude that a certain %age of indians are endowed with this. I am not moving to indocentrism, rather I am being honest, realistic and yet unlike the westerners I am not being derogatory or cynical of western achievements. Indians in the past were not backwards in technological achievements too...there is a video on YT on this. The bad days came with the invasions..

[82abhilash]

I am not trying eurocentricism vs indocentricism. At that time most people on earth could could not read. So Europe was not too well-off then either. It is just that is seems painfully obvious that India had an edge and lost it. Why? I think it was religion. The same thing that brought the dark ages to Europe and keeps Arabia in darnkess today. I want to separate the native Indian religions from the actual advancements that where made at that time. Something most Indians don't do.

[0musing]

India has had a belief system called Sanatana Dharma and a multitude of philosophies and beliefs. All these have co-existed. There has been no attempt to proseltyze or put down other faiths. My point is that until the huge juggernaut of Islam came to India, India was advanced and rich. Once the religion of Islam came to India..all the advancements stopped in a short time. This has happened in the middle east too. All growth in Astronomy, maths and sciences stopped after Islam started spreading..

[82abhilash]

This is an idealized version of events. How you like to remember the past rather than how things really where. The fact is there where several competing and conflicting ideologies - people fought on their basis and also on the basis of language and culture and also for political reasons. In fact the Muslims advantage of that fact. Untouchablity used to exist in pre-Islamic India and so did several other social and gender inequalities and does so today. (cont)

[82abhilash]

Buddishm originated in India and Sanatana Dharma is part of its belief system. Adi Shankara walked all the way from Kerala to the Himalayas establishing his Advaita philosophy, so did other philosophers. So yes there has been proselytizing, although the pressure was subtle. As for Sanatana Dharma, it is a concept that all these various belief systems refer to, because they have the same roots. It is not a belief system. en. wikipedia. org/wiki/ Sanatana

[82abhilash]

You must not de-sensitize yourself to the shortcomings of your predecessors even while admiring their accomplishments. If you do you will make the same mistakes they made. Their society was far from ideal and their conduct while having their advantages where far from perfect. (End)

[0musing]

See about India - Indians were no doubt at the peak of creativity and sciences upto about 1000 AD before they were invaded by the Islamic jihadist...then they were occupied for about 700 years by muslims which almost destroyed the sciences, arts and civilization of India. Then they were occupied by the british for 300 years which looted and exploited India so as to almost suck blood out of India..We just started again and I am optimistic that our best is ahead of us.

[82abhilash]

Indians had peaked in their creativty, but that was not at a 1000 AD. It was much before that. By 1000AD we where had set into decline. That is why the muslims where able to invade and conquer. Their presence of course did not improve things, it only created new problems, eventually leaving us ripe for the British to conquer. You may like to check out the works of Belgian historian Koenraad Elst. He actually loves India and offers constructive criticism.

[0musing]

I cannot see your other comment here(the one I can view in my inbox/comments), so will answer both here. I am familiar with Koenraad's works. If you read him closely you will get an idea of how the muslims won their jihad against India, their cheating tricks and behavior..which they employ even today.

As for Indian creativity in sciences (remove the spaces) -

en . wikipedia . org / wiki / Indian_science

Also look at Indian Maths -

en . wikipedia . org / wiki / Indian_mathematics.

(1)

[0musing]

In both the links look at the timeline around 800-1200 AD. You will find that there is no sign of decline. Western Historians and western intelligentsia have been painting asians in derogatory and derisive colors. There has been an element of scorn and superiority about things Caucasian..Look at charges of eurocentrism in Maths sections! Indians have never got their due. Fact is that just the indian number scheme and the concept of zero is such a tremendous advancement.

(2)

[0musing]

That any western advancement would not have been possible without just this bit. Look at the Kerala School of Mathematics and where they were headed. They have never gotten their due in the field of mathematics.

I am not exaggerating when I am saying that the most creative and advanced/rich civilization was attacked by barbarians and pulled down for about 1000 years. We are still recovering from that.

I have no doubts that we will go very far and will contribute a lot to the world sciences..

(3)

[0musing]

arts and other fields of human expressions. We will do all this because Indians are hard wired to grapple with abstract, complex and fundamental problems. We are born with a innate intuitive capability to excel in education and cognition(call it IQ or whatever). We will excel as an economic superpower.

However to quote the Japanese Emperor in Tom Cruise's - "The Last Samurai" : "We cannot forget who we are, or, where we come from".

(4)

[0musing]

Our legacy and heritage is being denied its due right and sometimes we are the ones who do this...Because of the excess of propaganda which has been rampant in western/english literature. It has been hammered so many times and we have read it in so many places that now when we can't read Sanskrit or our ancient texts we mistake this propaganda for truth.

(End)

[0musing]

No doubt by co-incidence?!!

I think what Sagan needed to do was string together such predictions as the age of the earth, the age of the cosmos, the prediction about big bang and cosmic dissolution etc..made in Hindu texts and then make the assessment he does about co-incidence. The right way would be to look at a probability string..

I am sure he would have been in for a bigger surprise.

[82abhilash]

Carl Sagan died in 1996.

[0musing]

I am aware of it :) I used to watch the serial Cosmos in India.

[mrtyudand]

he didn't completely read all of the texts, but he did cover quite a bit more than most other scientists.

[0musing]

Granted. Just taking an exception to this penchant for derision and turpitude in western intelligentsia when it comes to things Indian. Fact is, that the contribution of Indian thought for modern western development has been immense...and a lot of indian thought has been renamed and repurposed by western scientists without giving proper credit...it just irks :) Specially the "no doubt" part! How come Indian were able to also by coincidence predict the age of earth to be 6.2 billion years?

[82abhilash]

Are you familiar with the terms confirmation bias or its cousin belief preservation?

[0musing]

Its not surprising that western science/philosophy with its reductionist bent needs to invent these kind of terms...

I hope Carl Sagan was familiar with these two terms from the cognitive sciences. It would have helped him to see the error of his ways...

[82abhilash]

There is no western science or eastern science. Science concerns itself with natural phenomena regardless of one's geographic locations. Also I would like to distinguish useful reductionism from greedy reductionism.

[0musing]

So you mean to say old Carl was a greedy reductionist in his hypothesis that Indian cosmology was incidental rather than having a meaningful base? this without understanding why those kind of "astronomically" large numbers were bandied about?

[82abhilash]

His comment is not about Indian cosmology, it is about the Hindu religion. Cosmology or astronomy does have a meaningful base for dealing with large numbers. Religion(s) that evolved at that time did incorporate that knowledge, but in this case it is more incidental than meaningful, as religions ideally prefer to have science on their side. It reflects the nature of the society of that time more than anything else, their impressive accomplishments as well as their weaknesses and shortcomings.

[0musing]

To repeat the trite - there is nothing called Hindu religion. Scientific method demands a hypothesis and typically hypothesis is derived from the body of prevalent knowledge. So, even a fairy tale is valid as long as it manages to explain/predict for a given data space.

Having said that, Sanatana Dharma employs a lot of symbolism and is more than surface deep. If you look at only gods, goddesses and demons you are missing the point...look again and you might see something deeper.

[82abhilash]

When I try to understand Sanatana Dharma, I see people trying to make sense of the universe they exist in, their earliest effort. I see people trying to fit their ideas into concepts that where familiar to them (gods, demons, fables, etc.). But the society they lived in did not progress. We remained and mostly remain an agro based society with illiteracy and poverty. Which leads me to think that despite their sophistication, they where working within a small data space.

[0musing]

That's one of the most commonly proliferated myths. I think there are three personal exercises one can do to understand the unraveling process of Sanatana Dharma. One would be the TIMELINE - Known and Unknown(I mean that the timeline for the vedas is rather vague), Second the CONCEPTS and PEOPLE which correspond to the timeline - to get a flavor of the environment when these things were being expounded..

Lastly, the impact of EXTERNAL pressures - like the Muslim invasions (contd)

[0musing]

which started roughly around 900 AD and the deleterious impact it had on Indian knowledge banks and Indian creativity...

I think you will find(without any emotional bias) that the creativity, methods and logical disciplines which existed were par excellence (even for today) at a time when other cultures were still in caves! The shriveling of creativity and sciences or disciplines in all fields, art, music, literature, sciences, maths and so on since 900 AD..(End)

[82abhilash]

The Islamic armies could not have conquered an enlightened and progressive society. The society they conquered was weak and mostly a shell of its progressive and cultured former self. Think about it, recorded Indian history began at least at 2500BC. Yet in 900AD, we where still teaching the same lessons, same books, same stories, only small changes. That is no society that believes in progress, it is one that glorifies its past and loves to remain stuck in the past.

[0musing]

You are mistaken. Its the civilised and peace loving nations which are an easy target for mercenary warriors. The nature of Jihad and Islamic invasion, the trickery employed to defeat the Hindus is a topic by itself. Indians were brave and were developing rapidly in other spheres. The muslims used all manners of deception and foul, barbaric/animal like tactics to win..Pls. look up Indian Maths and Science in wikipedia to see the progress India was making around 900 AD..

[82abhilash]

You use the word civilized and peace loving as if they mean the same thing. I am not sure. Yes, a civilized nation will have math,science and literature. But before that it needs to defend itself. If a nation cannot successfully defend itself all that is left are stateless mathematicians and scientists, no civilization. A civilization that cannot successfully defend is one that has begun to decline. Everyone wants peace, but perhaps to preserve the peace means to be ready for war.

[0musing]

I do not understand what we are "arguing" about here. The war with Islam cannot be called a war, it was done through deception utilising all manners of trickery. The muslims did not win because they had superior weaponry or were more advanced in sciences..They were just more advanced in lying and cheating. Yes, we need to be able to defend ourself and hopefully we have learnt our lessons from the past 1000 years...

[82abhilash]

Nope the muslims where well advanced in weponry at that time. Lying and cheating helps too, but that is not enough. And Indians where good at that too.

[82abhilash]

I have been thinking. It looks bad for me. It looks here like I am defending highly unethical and criminal acts that where perpetrated on my ancestors by invading foreigners. That is not what I am trying to do here. What I hope to achieve here is that while admiring their accomplishments, we must no shy away from criticizing the wrongs they did and learning from their shortcomings. By learning from our own mistakes we can progress.

[82abhilash]

There is something to be learnt from it. There was a moment in past when Indian society was more civilized than most of the world. Yet the people who lived in caves then got out of those caves and build great civilizations which eventually conquered our own. Arabs, Persians, Turks and lastly the British. Looks to me that in the marathon of life Indians had an early lead, but they took a wrong turn reached a blind alley and chose to remain there and make home.

[0musing]

You are mistaken. We have changed several topics here but invading and war are not the traditions of civilized nations. Arabs, Persians, and the Turks were never more advanced that India. Pls. check and substantiate what you mean when you make these comparisons. Britain grew through piracy, invasion, slavery and war..I do not understand why you say they were superior to Indians..

[82abhilash]

That is one of the irony of history, that civilized nations have to commit to war and civilizations grew out of conflict. That a nation can invade another and defeat it is a sign that it is progressive, militarily. But military advancements do not happen in isolation it borrows from their creative potential in other fields as well. To know of their creative potential, you must learn about their civilization. Also Indian civilization too grew out of battles and struggles.

[0musing]

I do not agree with this. If someone says that to advance one needs to be inclined to invasion of neighbors and other people who have done nothing to you. Then such advancement is not advancement its actually backward. No one would be proud of a legacy where they have been inventing or using creativity to attack others with the intent of looting, killing and raping innocent people..

[raaxyz]

For continuation of this please watch the Video Response.

[prashanth817]

Great video, thank for uploading it.

I just see the striking and complicated philosphy amidst the simple and carefree lives the ppl lead.

I also believe that ideas should not be blindly followed, but there also comes some advantage in resolute belief. Doubting or questioning too much or improperly doesnt really do any good.

[Sunhawk7ajj]

Skeptisim is a valued part of Vedic culture, question- question and question. Only in YOUR personal search for answers will YOU find YOUR TRUTH. By your own hand are you uplifted or degraded. The vedas encourage exploration, challenge and thinking as the untimate truth is we are Divine, and the journey that you choose to take is the story of your ascention.

[balumuthu]

Vedic wisdom,which Carl quotes without citing,is linked to both materialistic pursuits(Karma Kaanda)& spiritual realization(Jnaana Kaanda),a man finding fulfilment by practising the wisdom of the two: as householder in materialistic pursuits [according to injunctions of Shaastras which reflect the spirit of the latter in practical details].Once 'satiated'with materialistic fulfilments,he yearns for, and delights in,the pure spirituality of Part II.This is ETERNAL and UNIVERSAL (SANAATAN) WISDOM.

[82abhilash]

All that is OK, but the point I was hoping to make here was that skepticism and self-criticism was once part of Indian tradition.

[Dusual]

i agree the line when he says , "that he may know or he may know not" shows that skepticism was valued and in your intro the line where you say that "[I] claim that when Indians started forming cults around personal gods (and there are many) and those started forming the basis of Indian society, that was when the intellectual sun began to set in that part of the world " well said and i absolutely agree

[balumuthu]

Many men of wisdom say that mere knowledge of universal consciousness(UC) [Vedic Advaita proved in science!]can never answer its knower when in material distress. Re:personal god PERSONIFYING the UC does work for its devotees, and is a pragmatic necessity for ALL humans incdg. philosophers & scientists who are dumbfounded when not getting answers to what they strove for. It means looking inward deeply and communing with the UCwhich will light the path darkened by one's own ignorance.UC RESPONDS!

[balumuthu]

Skepticism, or just, questioning'established wisdom and getting answers by oneself is an essential hallmark of an educated mind.There is no sense in a self-styled 'religious' man when his practice lacks the spirit.Unfortunately there are always fools, obscurantists, among religious (and irreligious)who deny themselves this tool to break out of ignorance.Adi Shankara explicitly encouraged skepticism as part of self-discipline and learning so that wisdom thus imbibed will be unassailable always.

[paulkrist44]

You are very right,82A.Due to lack of educated skepticism,we tend to sail with is fashionable,not what is TRUE. Re:Gods may be the dreams....[this video's theme], Successive theories like Big Bang,String Theory,attempt yet fail to explain Maya! In Vedas[&Puranas translating Vedic wisdom through pre-history in tale-like manner for commoners],the profoundest reality of a Supreme Self is explained,the uwhy of the unreal Maya - focus of Big Bang etc.theories -is left as unknown to God and man!

[paulkrist44]

But I want to add one critical remark about Carl Sagan, even if he is to be complimented on his bringing to scientists' and West's notice, Hindu and oriental cosmology. In his book COSMOS,he appears to be paying just lip-service or left-handed tributes to Hindu cosmological estimates of lifes of Yugas, Mahayugas, remarking that they were "no doubt by accident". EVERY SKEPTICAL PERSON DOUBTS THE MOTIVES OF CARL SAGAN's MOTIVES IN SAYING THIS.

[82abhilash]

Skeptical persons are skeptical of each other. So you can be as skeptical of Carl Sagan as you want. But please speak for yourself only. As for the Vedas, I do not feel compelled to consider them as perfect or infallible. I am skeptical of the Vedas and you can be skeptical of me. All the Vedas prove to me is that there was a rich intellectual tradition in ancient India. Intellects can get somethings right and some things wrong.

[82abhilash]

This is from the transalation of Rig Veda by Indologist Ralph T.H. Griffith (1826--1906). Mandala 10, Hymn 129. The full text is available on wikisource.

[paulkrist44]

Griffith was one of a few Western scholars with an EARNEST desire to benefit by the wisdom of the East, esply.that ofthe India's Vedas.There are several others esply. among socalled scholars and religious fanatics,who treat this wisdom for all times, casually, in passing and slightingly, due to their prior commitment to some one of the other 'religions' which were woven around parochailism and some past,outdated circumstances (ex.,slavery). But yes,ALL religions preach truth,kindness,..

[82abhilash]

Carl Sagan claims they where taken from the Vedas.

[italianchappy]

Thank you Abhilash for having sent me this great vid. I'm very busy in this period and I would have lost it otherwise.

[arshsingh1984]

Beautifully put, the only way the one and only Sagan can put it.

[mfunke]

Great video! Sagan is missed!