Okay, well I get this point, and I wouldn't send the Bible back in time. However, what if they didn't Want it? Our test would fail, and then their perception of such an event would ultimately alter the 'our'-'present' 'time'. . . lol but I love the idea :))
It's not so much the idea of sending something back in time, but giving the ignorant knowledge. Compare the knowledge that you would give our ignorant ancestors with what "God" supposedly gave them.
I'm sure you could come up with much more useful stuff. ;)
@OccamKant I agree with you. Though another flaw. If you give the Bible to them, and they realize it false and made up to control. They would obliterate the single book (considering they don't have the technology to make copies =O) -- therefore in present time, the book would cease to exist, therefore giving them the book didn't happen. Only possible outcome is going back in time, you enter a different dimension, and That time/space continuum experiences it, and we enter That present time. . .
@OccamKant which is not linked up to Our past, therefore making this more possible, except it wouldn't change our present, and we would have to wait that many more years examining Their time/space continuum in Our's.
You've gotten distracted by an unimportant part of my question.
The only reason I suggested to think about a book that you can send back in time, is to put you in the same position as a God would have been when the bible was written.
It's just my way of trying to get you to put yourself into God's shoes, without people going mental about "Oh, I can't play god blah blah blah".
So don't get hung up on the time paradoxes - they are not important.
@OccamKant I understand they are not important based on the topic at hand, and the Main point of all this regarding the video. I was just 'including', though the point is, regardless of anything, the Bible would not be followed in such a case If it was precisely the Same people that existed in This dimension. The possibility of some crazy time containing civilization that Would follow the Bible as a Christian, is valid. Which is more dimension stuff, which as said, is excluded to this point.
Its quite saddening when you realise how much of a fraud religion is and how much damage it has done to human consciousness - and how difficult it seems to be to shake off our shackles!
actually rather than sending useful stuff like that (there's no telling what harmful effects that could have to the present) I think i would rather do an experiment on people. what I would do is send the books about Scientology (being that their beliefs are often mocked, and thought to be ridiculous) back to that time, to see if that would cause people to believe Scientology to be a very possible religion rather than some silly space opera.
Tell me what in Scientology is sillier than what you read in Revelations.
Also - my real point in this video is not about sending a book back, just putting yourself in God's shoes at the time, and choosing what information to reveal to people.
Do you reveal useful, constructive information that could help people, or nasty, bloody stories that inspire hatred and superstition?
Though you can go on about it, it really won't change anything, religions are here and they are here to stay, so your points are moot.
Scandanavia? Theres also many countries that started wars based on no religions inclinations as well. I think the comparison doesn't quite match. People of religious inclination don't fight bcasue of hocus-pocus ideas. Theistic people often fight because they believe they are trying to help the efforts of their everlasting souls. No small measure to scoff at.
You're making an unsupported assumption, so I'll "go on about it" as long as I want.
Yes, as I said, Greed is another reason to start a war. You're still missing my point - if you dropped religion, that would be ONE LESS MAJOR reason to start a war.
When the bible tells the Isrealites to go and kill everybody in these various towns (Ammonites, Amelekites, etc), are you going to say that it's to "help their souls"? How does genocide help anyone?
You keep saying how this book written thousands of years ago is so worthless, yet you put so much effort forward to try and debunk it. Regardless of the attrocities as they may have been written, do you see people who enjoy that book still practicing those same "killing endevours" today?
Yes - look at the treatment of Gays. There is NO reason apart from religion that gays shouldn't marry. Look at abortion clinic bombings. There was that recent murder IN CHURCH of an abortion doctor.
The invasion of Iraq was supposedly "ordered by God", according to Bush.
hmm, seems to be a few topics more that you are pointing towards.
I agree "gays" should not be treated poorly as human beings. I don't agree with the behaviour but its not my life, so live & let live. The term "marriage" is something different when speaking of "the govenrment contract" or the matrimonial contract as adjudicated by the church & both are "legal" in essence to "society".
I don't read too many papers & I don't like watching TV, not sure about the murders or bombings.
wasn't that long ago that war was fought over oil, "hiding" behind the moral highground of "God is on our side"...war on terrorism? Wasn't too long ago that countries were being lobbied against with trade embargos on them for developing nuclear weapons (isn't it thier perogative what they do in their own countries?). there are a massive amount of efforts, much less noble than the effort of salvaging your everlasting soul..that are being fought over.
I never said that religion was the only reason for fighting - just that it was a big one.
Re-read my messages. The two major reasons for combat are Greed and Religion. Hatred is part of it, but hatred often (usually?) arises from religious differences, though sometimes it's also racial differences.
well I have to commend you Occam for trying to recognize the problems we have in the world & believeing there is a way to work past those problems. I too am a solutions guy. Though I don't believe religion will ever be abolished more from the fact that not all people are endowed enough to maintain faith without an outlet such as religious institution to help bolster their resolve. & really there is nothing wrong with those efforts. 1 way for all is simply too neat a package for a complex world.
I don't know whether or not we can ever get rid of religion, just like we can't seem to get rid of other superstitions like horoscopes, palm reading, tarot card reading, crystals, etc etc.
People seem to *want* some kind of magical something and are willing to turn off the critical parts of their minds in order to have it.
Perhaps if we taught logic and critical thinking at grade 1 instead of as a university course...
Not sure if the bible god cares about our well-being, but he does care what we think of him. If I were him, I would put undeniable evidence of my existence into the book. Large primes. Crater on the dark side of the moon. Solar eclipse prediction. Anything.
Everyone would have to admit he is the true god! Instead, we get magic tricks chewed through decades of oral tradition.
If you look at a Bible as a collection of mythology rather than a book dictated by a god, suddenly all adds up.
I agree - it's a bunch of myths written by superstitious and uneducated desert nomads interested in forwarding their own primitive and paternalistic "culture".
It in NO WAY comes across as something written by a hyper-intelligent, hyper-spacial magical being. ;)
Assuming what a being of that nature would write about? I find the most valuable lessons in life are handed down through the generations in the form of moralistic stories that allow us a better understanding of how we "ought to live", of course thats subjective so an example would be more profound (ie Jesus). Though I believe there is an integral part of every human that allows them to understand the "rights from wrongs". Its our desires by nature that we struggle to succumb to or resist.
I would imagine a super intelligent being would write something that we still find amazing, not something that completely lines up with the ignorance and prejudice of the time.
There is NOTHING in the bible that comes across in anyway as enlightened. Nothing. Drug induced in some cases, bloody handed in most others, but amazing? Enlightened? No. Not a scrap.
There are books of poetry and philosophy and SCIENCE now that I find awe inspiring, but not the bible. Give me a break.
Perhaps the authors of yesteryear we not going for the flash-and-bang of the novelist today or the imperical data representation of cutting edge R&D...they were obviously not concerned about selling copies of books.....and if they were, somebody would probably be complaining about the intentions of how it was written in such a volume-selling fashion. I don't care for poetry all that much but i see its function and need. If you don't like the book and don't believe in a God....why hound it so?
Because OTHERS do, and this belief causes them to act destructively.
For example, the Prop-8 law that passed in California outlawing gay marriage. There is no secular reason for doing this, just a pig-headed, sanctimonious, asshole reason provided by the bible.
One rule that we should all live by, that is NOT taught in the bible is "mind your own business."
Actually, there is: that verse about "get the plank out of your own eye before complaining about the sliver in your neighbor's." MYOB.
And when did I say "flash and bang" - you're teetering on the edge of bullshit here, putting words into my mouth, and perhaps deliberately misinterpreting my meaning.
Flash/Bang implies some shallow, mindless entertainment. I'm talking about something to edify and educate. The constructor of the universe should easily be able to do that, yet the bible is filled with nonsense, evil and bigotry. There is nothing there that a primitive savage wouldn't have come up with himself.
you know those words that capture the mind in a novel that make you want to read on, thats the flash and bang i was speaking of, no words in your motuh, i'll own my own words tyvm!
Once again you would have the construtor of the universe doing what you deem is neccessary to show value. Yet in so doing you show more of what you value in life & nothing else.
nonsense, evil & bigotry written by a primitive savage...purely your own interpretation & one focused on only the aspects you want to see.
I would *certainly* have the constructor of the universe produce a work that I myself couldn't have, yes.
I couldn't write a book like Stephen Hawking, or Richard Dawkins. Their knowledge of their subjects is enormous, and allows them to talk about the subjects in ways accessible to the common people.
What is there amazing in the bible? What's even GOOD in the bible? Demanding blood sacrifice?
Are you going to seriously sit there and tell me that it makes sense that the creator wants blood?
I am willing to say I do not fully understand what made sense at the time. I also do not remotely come close to comprehending what a divine being thinks or has for goals. I would not be so egotistical to say "how it should be or ought to be", because I understand humility.
"nonsense, evil & bigotry written by a primitive savage...purely your own interpretation & one focused on only the aspects you want to see."
Elisha murdered 42 children for calling him bald.
Are you going to tell me that there is some defense to this? And he did it in the name of the lord, which means God backed him up (because God brought the bears).
42 children counts as mass murder. Their crime? Being kids, and calling a stranger names.
what is the intrinsic value of the bible? There should almost be a natural calling within you that should answer that.
all the numbers, quantifications, advancements & technology just bring us further along a road,but not a step up.
It won't tell us how to live, & treat each other with kindness, or see the value of forgiveness.
We still fight each other, squabble, kill, vie for power, belittle & bully our fellow man. All those advancements you spoke of just let us be broke in a different way.
Since we are all intrinsically different, the impact each book makes on us is different based on the people we are & the people we are at the moment of interacting with a book. It looks like poetry makes the biggest impact on you. I like looking at cooking and nature...but i don't devalue the bible because i am more attentive with other subject matter. Every book is a tool used for good or bad, tho there is relevance in all.
Your ratio 1:1000 speaks more of humanity & less of theistic teaching.
A book on basic scientific knowledge, explaining about bacteria and cleanliness, about geography and the shape of the world, AND telling people that they are ALL equal (NO BLOODY "CHOSEN PEOPLE") would be FAR more benefit to the people than the bible.
A little science, a little philosophy, would have done wonders.
As it is, the bible just teaches hate and division. A science book wouldn't lead to the inquisition, but the bible did.
"Your ratio 1:1000 speaks more of humanity & less of theistic teaching. "
No, you have that reversed. These awful passages I'm referring to are all done "at god's command", which is theology.
How is it beautiful to teach that you should be killed for working on a sunday? Kill disobedient children? Kill non-virgin brides? Kill blasphemers? Kill men in a different city who don't believe as you do? Kill children for calling a bald guy bald? Kill your own child?
in this time here & now, in this country i am in, through the eyes i peer through now, from the societal norms I have grown accustomed to...well those things seem quite atrocious. Back then....perhaps the norm was different and the words are meant as a stiff warning.
Though in the absence of all religion, we would still find thing to fight about & the world would continue to cartwheel into its degredation. We just find new ways to validate our debauchery and say its "freedom to choose".
We would certainly fight a lot LESS without religion.
Only religion gives people the idea that "god is on my side" and "you heathen deserve to die". There is no secular rationalization like that. "Logic is on my side, so you deserve to die"? No, that's just stupid.
Society is different now than 2000 years ago because we've matured.
Don't you think that an all knowing, all powerful deity could have gotten us there in one shot, rather than 2000 years?
you honestly believe that we'd fight less without religion? I don't believe we'd fight more but the fight is because of humans, not the religion. Secular rationalization is thrown out the window for people who don't really care about reasoning...they just fight & don't care about logistics, could be as simple as...i don't like your shirt. Society IS indeed different, but we have not matured....we as a people and world do not stop individual desires for the betterment of the world, we never will.
Of course we'd fight less without religion! Religion is a huge reason why we fight (ever heard of "religious wars"?). There is no secular equivalent to a religious war.
People don't fight over who doesn't like your shirt, don't be stupid.
You fight because of greed, or hatred, or religion. And hatred is usually because of religion, so that would really just leave greed.
So yeah, obviously we'd fight much less without religion. How many wars has Scandanavia started? None, as far as I know.
heh, nice with the name calling. I used the example of people fighting cause they don't like your shirt as something trivial, & people will do just that, they will find new trivial things to fight over, you obviously did not see the intention in the words. just greed hatred or religion?...opression, honor, loyalty to a cause, resources, injustices, tyranny, differing opinions, name calling, infractions, expansion, thievery, though some mock your above notations they can also have no similarities
Yes, people fight oppression. There is oppression because of greed, as I already said. People fight in self defense, but the NEED for the self defense starts either because of some religious reason or greed.
Most of your examples fall into greed, and you are completely ignoring the ONGOING fighting that has a religious basis. The civil strife in Iraq, for example, is Sunni vs Shia. The ONLY reason they're blowing up each other's mosques is religious.
Religion *is* evil, because it encourages evil behavior in people.
Your religious views guide your thoughts. Thoughts lead to actions.
If your religion tells you that you have some special, magical information that others don't have, if it tells you that science (evolution, cosmology, etc) is wrong/satanic/evil, then you are going to make evil decisions.
If people kept their religions to themselves I wouldn't make these videos. But they don't, so I do.
I ask you for biblical backup, because I don't remember reading anything supporting your point of view. I'm perfectly happy providing biblical backup for my points. Just tell me which points you want me to back up.
I don't know to tell you the truth, those are hard verses to understand. Here's another hard thing to understand, why would God allow His own Son to suffer and die on the cross for the sins of men and women who constantly accuse Him of mismanaging the universe? He must love us a lot.
The crucifixion is such a joke - I can't believe you guys are so in love with the idea.
First, why is God so in love with blood sacrifice? Why does he require blood sacrifice, but he demands that we forgive each other?
Second - Many people died on the cross. What's so special about jesus death? He was only on the cross for 3-6 hours, which was a surprisingly short time.
AND YOU CLAIM HE'S ALIVE AGAIN! So he didn't die, did he? When someone dies, they're GONE. You say JC is still alive.
Ironic: God creates man and gives him free will. Man chooses to disobey and the consequences of disobedience are what we see going on in the world today. What you are blaming God for (slavery) is really a situation of our making in the first place. The Law you like to point out flaws in was never intended to rectify the problem, only manage it until Christ came. And now when God offers His hand to you again, offers you a way out, you call it a joke. Wisdom is proved right by her children.
These verses are only hard to understand if you believe the bible to be true.
If you believe the bible to be a collection of scribblings by ignorant desert nomads who were making things up to control people, it's perfectly understandable.
This argument holds no water at all. The only reason it's "establish" and "supported" is that people have a tendency to believe in crap because of wishful thinking.
If you're going to use that argument, then Astrology is true too. People still read their horoscopes, even though it's completely stupid.
While we are on the topic of slavery, Jesus said whoever sins is a slave to sin John 8:34. Then in verse 36 He said 'if the Son makes you free you will be free indeed." God is very concerned about the slavery. The bondage of our souls was and is a matter of utmost importance to Him.
In a way you raise in interesting question: would an infusion of knowledge really help people 2000 years ago? Has it really helped us? We still die. We still murder. We still commit atrocities. Our basic problem is not cognitive it is moral. The Bible you propose as redundunt indicates the answer to man's greatest need:eternal life.
To say the Bible is moral is to speak about it like it was a person. The Bible is a compilation of writings, history, poems, prophecy and so on. In those writings there are stories of atrocities and there are stories of sacrificial love. Does God condone everything written in the Bible, no. Is all the Bible applicable to us today? No. The goal of the Old Testament Law was love, did that happen, not always.
You are right, God does stuff in the Bible. If you look at the account of the flood God is sorry before the flood. He is sorry that He made man because all that man can think to do is evil. Most people blame God for the way the world is, actually it is God's fault if you want to look at it like that. He made us and He gave us a choice. And we have been reaping the concequences of that choice for thousands of years. Now Jesus is giving us, you, another choice.
Let me ask you a question in reply, do you know what it means to be omnisicient? I have to confess to you that I don't know exactly what it means and how it plays out in the future. But if you are going to suggest that God is somehow limited by my lack of knowledge I think you are betting on the wrong horse.
No - I'm saying there is a problem with the very idea of omniscience.
Omniscience, by definition, means knowing EVERYTHING. Everything that ever was, is, and will be.
I know I've heard Christians hold this point of view, I was just wondering if you held it. That God knew the future - which is why someone could write Revelations.
So - do you think God knows everything, past, present and future?
Jesus said that there would be some who came calling Him Lord and He would say to them "I never knew you: Depart from me you who practice lawlessness." So, no, God doesn't know everything or everyone, at least in the same way.
That is an odd phrasing in the book - and it sounds more like he's trying to say "I never accepted you, you faker" than "I was unaware of your existence". This particular phrase, as I understand it, is a warning to those who are followers in name only (talk the talk, but don't walk the walk).
There are other examples of God being surprised - like A&E and the apple, in eden, so clearly he is not Omniscient. It's just that many Christians say he IS omniscient - it's the basis of calvanism.
I understand what you are saying and I apologise for being obtuse. I do believe that God is aware of everything, but at the same time it doesn't seem to inhibit Him from dealing with us in time as well and having normal reactions to our choices and so on.
Let's not forget that there *have* been advancements in the humanities since the bible was written.
We no longer accept slavery (unlike the bible), and we no longer think that invading other countries is "God's Will" - though Bush certainly tried to resurrect that idea.
And thanks to medical science, we can cure diseases! God could have just wiped out disease, if he existed, but he doesn't, so it's up to science to do what it can, and it's done a great job.
Interesting, you propose that the Bible condones slavery and yet Wilberforce, who did much to fight slavery in England, was a Christian, by all accounts. How do you account for that? The Bible is the only book that gives one a moral foundation from which to say 'slavery is wrong'. Without God you really have no basis for the ideas you like to think of as good.
Obviously because there are good people who recognize evil behaviour even when not explicitly told.
Jesus had rules for slaves. Jesus did not free any slaves. Therefore Jesus was OK with slavery. And the only reason the Jews were released from slavery was that they were God's chosen people, not that he was against slavery in principle. In fact, he told his people to make slaves of others when they conquored cities.
How do you know what a slave is and was in Jesus day? It is possible that some slaves were like hired workers today. It is possible that some slaves had no choice but to be a slave to support their family. Jesus did not come to fix all that is wrong with this world, He came to offer us a choice. But to say that Jesus did not free any slaves is patently false. He has truly freed more people than anyone else can ever hope to. And He has freed us from what really enslaves us:the fear of death
"How do you know what a slave is and was in Jesus day?"
God damnit I hate it when people try to worm out of it like this. A slave is a slave. Slavery has been around for thousands of years. The Jews were slaves of the Egyptians, and had to be blasted free (supposedly) by god. Does that sound like an employee?
You're allowed to beat your slave to death, but only if he doesn't die on the first day. Does that sound like an employee?
As for "fear of death" Jesus CREATED fear of death, with hell.
Yes a slave is a slave, but there is a vast difference in how slaves were treated. I am not advocating slavery, but I think you are reading twenty first century norms into the past. It is possible, as another person on this thread has hinted, that the very norms you use to judge the past were in fact largely influenced by Christianity, Wilberforce for example, in the first place.
What exactly am I using as an excuse? The Bible does not promote slavery, it doesn't say it is a good thing. It makes allowances for it in the Old Testament probably because that was largely how the world was back then. That is different than God saying, "I want you to have slaves" The New Testament definately points us away from slavery, by telling us "in everything, therefore treat people the same way you want them to treat you" Matthew 7:12.
By making "allowances" for it, by giving rules for handling slaves, and in fact for DEMANDING THE TAKING OF SLAVES, the bible certainly promotes it.
Obviously in the New Testament they didn't consider people from rival cities and countries to be "people", since Jesus had commands for slaves, and how they should obey their masters.
Jesus never said "Do not take slaves - release all your slaves, it is wrong to enslave anyone at all."
Sorry - but what is the twenty first century "norm" for how slaves are treated? and how is that different from the forced servitude and beatings/killings delivered in the bible?
The twentieth century norm elevates things like slavery to the position of ultimate evil. So much so that a good God could not for one instant allow such a thing to exist on earth and still be good. Slavery isn't good, but it isn't the worst thing that can happen to a person.
I think that without God people will torture themselves, because they will never actually be able to satisfy themselves. The irony of atheism is that it doesn't take into account, (how could it?) how much right now man depends on God for the simple pleasures of life.
I don't depend on god for simple pleasures in life. Please stop with the crap. As an atheist, I take great enjoyment in life.
What pisses me off are liars and idiots.
Why do you think people would torture themselves without god? Take a look at the scandanavian countries - they are the most atheistic on earth, and they are in general the happiest, safest, with the highest standard of living.
I'm not discounting what you say, but it wasn't my point. It is entirely possible that atheists in some cases are happier and enjoy life more than Christians. But it is God that makes that possible. The fact that we have government, however competent, the fact that the earth spins around and we have beauty and good things to enjoy is all because of God.
None of that is because of god. It's all because of natural forces.
The god of the bible ignores the laws of nature every time he answers a prayer. Of course, it's all fiction anyway, but the fact that your god so ignores the laws of physics should show you that the book is fake.
Atheists seem to want a world without God, why else would you devote so much of your time and creativity trying to prove that God doesn't exist? I am simply suggesting that God may give you exactly what you think you want, A world without God. I don't think it is the world you want and I really hope you figure that out someday.
Atheists don't believe in magic or fairy tales. You do.
Atheists want a world of rationality, of evidence, of logic and reason. We don't believe in following a "feeling" regarding the truth. The truth is provable, not "from the gut".
I'm perfectly happy to have a god exist, I just want EVIDENCE that one exists before I'll believe it.
My critiques of the bible just show that it's not what people think it is, and it's actually pretty evil.
I would like evidence too. Though i believe it is beneath my place to demand for that evidence. How could I such a limited creature in the scope of all that exists now , before & after, place demands on a being vastly beyond my comprehension or my ability to remotely fathom? How can I be so egotistical to think that my need for HIS proof far outweighs the need other may have who are so much worthier than I? Who am I to ask Him to bend to my will when he himself does not force us to do anything?
Why is it beneath you to demand evidence? Christians have been programmed to believe that they are worthless, evil scum, and can't question this god they think exists.
You are a human being, and as such you deserve respect.
But to put it simpler: Science has been able to discover pretty much *all* of the world's processes, and they ALL work according to these natural laws.
Magic, or god, is not part of any of them. There are no phenomena that require magic. THIS is why you should demand proof
And I know it makes Christians feel better to say that there is no morality without god, or other such nonsense, but it's clearly not true.
Atheists are on the whole far more moral than christians. Look at the prison populations for some real statistics.
All you need for a moral basis is the idea "How would you feel if that happened to you". Treat others as you'd like to be treated. That idea was around long before Jesus.
Even animals have basic morals - they live and cooperate in groups.
I guess I would ask you how the idea of universal good came about. It is fine to say that you have this feeling, and I certainly don't deny that you do, but where did the feeling come from?
You've lost me. When did I say anything about a "universal good"?
Also - I don't *have* to explain observed phenomena. It's enough to observe and take note. Of course, our goal is to explain the phenomena, but just because we may not have an explanation right now doesn't mean we won't come up with one eventually.
It's pretty universal that people in general consider the same kinds of things to be acceptable or objectionable, at least on a personal level - like smacking someone, or helping them
Well you seemed to suggest that we all have a moral basis, we are all capable of asking the question "How would you feel if that happened to you?" And you seem to suggest that we all would generally come the the same conclusion. I paraphrased that as "universal good"
Yes i agree, i just don't think you have a very good explanation for why we all think the same way. It makes more sense to me that we were all created in the image of God and therefore we all have somewhat of a moral compass.
In the beginning of the Bible, Genesis 1:27, "God created man in His own image." I don't know exactly what that means but it has something to do with man's ability to rule over the earth (verse 28). Man can reason, he can make judgements based on reason, he can will, he can feel deeply. This creates the capacity to rule wisely, like God would. In my opinion this is largely what it means to be created in the image. It has nothing to do with magic.
I gave you a reasoned response, the image of God is being endowed with reason, will and emotions that create the capacity to govern the earth. Where are the guesses?
A simpler explanation is that the bible is just saying that god looks like a human.
No reason for that, of course. If there is a magical super being who existed outside of space and time, what need would he have for feet, for toenails, for hair? How about a penis? Does God have a penis? Is it circumcised?
The idea that we are "copies" of god is of course nonsense - we don't have the magical powers that you claim he does.
It's also nonsense that god would have feet or a penis, since if he existed outside of space and time, then what would he need a body for? In fact, a body out in space would be a drawback, a weakness. You would die.
So it's nonsensical - the very definition of nonsense.
Unless you're going to provide some verses before or after that would make sense of the apparent senseless.
I can make guesses as to why people like being helped, and don't like to be smacked, but I'm sure you can too, and it really shouldn't be much of a puzzler.
At first I thought the exercise you proposed was one in futility, until you suggested we compare our idea of a book of all-importance with the bible. Pure genius, my friend.
Similarly, I ask people what single CD they would take with them to another planet. The responses I get are mostly pop music CD's, sometimes the Beetles, and the like. I always suggest Beethoven's 9th, which is met with disgust. The average person shuts themselves in when they find something they like, such as the bible.
I must remind you Occ that you also have made the misleading assertion in a very deceiving way that a supposed "GOD"s main concern with humanity is , or should be, to help mankind invent a better mousetrap or build a bigger LCD TV. The very fact that you perceive the essential needs and problems of mankind as material and physical are precisely the misguided worldview that the Bible does address.
I never said anything about mousetraps or lcd tvs.
How about medical science? Actual health science, instead of bullshit like demons? Why are pigs "unclean"? Because of trichinosis, which isn't a problem if you actually know how to handle the meat.
How about some truth about the creation of the universe, rather than the bullshit in genesis 1?
Personally, I think truth and honesty are important, but obviously you don't.
Because you're putting words in my mouth, and disregarding the words I actually said.
The point of my video, which is pretty plain, is that just about any book we have now on the natural sciences, or on law, or on philosophy, if sent back 2000 years would be more useful than the bible.
You babbled on about lcd tvs or mousetraps. You're trying to trivialize the point I made, rather than address it.
Also, the bible is untrue and dishonest. The world was NOT created the way it was described in genesis. There was no global flood. People did not live 900 years. Rainbows were around since light has been able to pass through water.
"I never said anything about mousetraps or lcd tvs."
I think what he was suggesting is that ultimately frivolous things like mousetraps and TV's are all we get from science. On the contrary, I believe that with science we can more fully understand our world and forgo the horrors of war, prejudice, and most other types of human-inflicted suffering.
Ben Stein once said in an interview that science only brings death. Nobody has ever waged war because of their scientific beliefs!
Your videos are full of intellectually dishonest and unreasonable comments. You say the Bible is FULL of contradictions. That would lead me to believe that you have studied it and found many of them. Give me one solid contradiction from your vast inventory of biblical contradictions. And by the way,... I am addressing the video.....you said IN the video that the Bible was FULL of contradictions. Didnt you???
Yes, the bible is full of contradictions. And I have certainly discovered many of my own, though of course I'm sure plenty of others have seen the same contradictions and commented on them.
I will give you two contradictions. You're not allowed to say "out of context" unless you give me the expanded context and how it changes things.
Better question. If you could have written a book back then that would serve as a reminder of how to live and have it last centuries, could we do better than the bible? I would bet that they could have as evidenced by such writings as the magna carta.
My book that I would send back to ancient people would include basic concepts concerning human health. The Bible exemplifies ignorance when speaking of such subjects because it attributes all diseases to sin. A book with modern health concepts could alleviate more pain then all the prayers of all the priests and rabbis combined.
The Bible, and everything that is in it, as Sam Harris has pointed out, is exactly what you would expect from a primitive people living in a primitive time.
Instructions on how to make a telescope/microscope among other things. What disease is and how to cure it? Whatever needed to bring about the industrial revolution back then. How to make a lightbulb? How to make a proper furnace... mmm the list just continues to expand.
Teach something about medicine, agriculture, science, how to make a printing press, how to establish a good government, condemn slavery, condemn child molesting,.... etc. Good video!
Thought-provoking. You make a number of good points.
One thing: remember that it was common to have multiple wives and concubines back then. Our perceptions of adultery and promiscuity are largely a result of Christian influence.
i agree with you
deathmetalgirl2818 1 year ago
Okay, well I get this point, and I wouldn't send the Bible back in time. However, what if they didn't Want it? Our test would fail, and then their perception of such an event would ultimately alter the 'our'-'present' 'time'. . . lol but I love the idea :))
NeoNovi 2 years ago
It's not so much the idea of sending something back in time, but giving the ignorant knowledge. Compare the knowledge that you would give our ignorant ancestors with what "God" supposedly gave them.
I'm sure you could come up with much more useful stuff. ;)
OccamKant 2 years ago
@OccamKant I agree with you. Though another flaw. If you give the Bible to them, and they realize it false and made up to control. They would obliterate the single book (considering they don't have the technology to make copies =O) -- therefore in present time, the book would cease to exist, therefore giving them the book didn't happen. Only possible outcome is going back in time, you enter a different dimension, and That time/space continuum experiences it, and we enter That present time. . .
NeoNovi 2 years ago
@OccamKant which is not linked up to Our past, therefore making this more possible, except it wouldn't change our present, and we would have to wait that many more years examining Their time/space continuum in Our's.
NeoNovi 2 years ago
You've gotten distracted by an unimportant part of my question.
The only reason I suggested to think about a book that you can send back in time, is to put you in the same position as a God would have been when the bible was written.
It's just my way of trying to get you to put yourself into God's shoes, without people going mental about "Oh, I can't play god blah blah blah".
So don't get hung up on the time paradoxes - they are not important.
OccamKant 2 years ago
@OccamKant I understand they are not important based on the topic at hand, and the Main point of all this regarding the video. I was just 'including', though the point is, regardless of anything, the Bible would not be followed in such a case If it was precisely the Same people that existed in This dimension. The possibility of some crazy time containing civilization that Would follow the Bible as a Christian, is valid. Which is more dimension stuff, which as said, is excluded to this point.
NeoNovi 2 years ago
Its quite saddening when you realise how much of a fraud religion is and how much damage it has done to human consciousness - and how difficult it seems to be to shake off our shackles!
Jayar74 2 years ago
It is very sad - but we can all do our part, trying to bring enlightenment.
OccamKant 2 years ago
actually rather than sending useful stuff like that (there's no telling what harmful effects that could have to the present) I think i would rather do an experiment on people. what I would do is send the books about Scientology (being that their beliefs are often mocked, and thought to be ridiculous) back to that time, to see if that would cause people to believe Scientology to be a very possible religion rather than some silly space opera.
sillywriter 2 years ago
Tell me what in Scientology is sillier than what you read in Revelations.
Also - my real point in this video is not about sending a book back, just putting yourself in God's shoes at the time, and choosing what information to reveal to people.
Do you reveal useful, constructive information that could help people, or nasty, bloody stories that inspire hatred and superstition?
OccamKant 2 years ago
to the first part, nothing, I've always considered Scientology to be no more silly than the rest of the beliefs out there.
the problem about sending back info about stuff is that by doing so, I might drastically alter the present completely, that's the problem.
but yes, i would much rather reveal useful info than violent sci-fi stories!
sillywriter 2 years ago
Though you can go on about it, it really won't change anything, religions are here and they are here to stay, so your points are moot.
Scandanavia? Theres also many countries that started wars based on no religions inclinations as well. I think the comparison doesn't quite match. People of religious inclination don't fight bcasue of hocus-pocus ideas. Theistic people often fight because they believe they are trying to help the efforts of their everlasting souls. No small measure to scoff at.
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
You're making an unsupported assumption, so I'll "go on about it" as long as I want.
Yes, as I said, Greed is another reason to start a war. You're still missing my point - if you dropped religion, that would be ONE LESS MAJOR reason to start a war.
When the bible tells the Isrealites to go and kill everybody in these various towns (Ammonites, Amelekites, etc), are you going to say that it's to "help their souls"? How does genocide help anyone?
I will continue to scoff at this evil.
OccamKant 2 years ago
You keep saying how this book written thousands of years ago is so worthless, yet you put so much effort forward to try and debunk it. Regardless of the attrocities as they may have been written, do you see people who enjoy that book still practicing those same "killing endevours" today?
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
Yes - look at the treatment of Gays. There is NO reason apart from religion that gays shouldn't marry. Look at abortion clinic bombings. There was that recent murder IN CHURCH of an abortion doctor.
The invasion of Iraq was supposedly "ordered by God", according to Bush.
OccamKant 2 years ago
hmm, seems to be a few topics more that you are pointing towards.
I agree "gays" should not be treated poorly as human beings. I don't agree with the behaviour but its not my life, so live & let live. The term "marriage" is something different when speaking of "the govenrment contract" or the matrimonial contract as adjudicated by the church & both are "legal" in essence to "society".
I don't read too many papers & I don't like watching TV, not sure about the murders or bombings.
bush=oil imo
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
Also - don't forget that it wasn't that long ago that we had the Inquisition, the Crusades and the Salem Witch Trials.
With Texas trying to get evolution ousted from education and trying to turn the clock back, who knows where things would go.
OccamKant 2 years ago
wasn't that long ago that war was fought over oil, "hiding" behind the moral highground of "God is on our side"...war on terrorism? Wasn't too long ago that countries were being lobbied against with trade embargos on them for developing nuclear weapons (isn't it thier perogative what they do in their own countries?). there are a massive amount of efforts, much less noble than the effort of salvaging your everlasting soul..that are being fought over.
burning witches = bad.
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
I never said that religion was the only reason for fighting - just that it was a big one.
Re-read my messages. The two major reasons for combat are Greed and Religion. Hatred is part of it, but hatred often (usually?) arises from religious differences, though sometimes it's also racial differences.
OccamKant 2 years ago
well I have to commend you Occam for trying to recognize the problems we have in the world & believeing there is a way to work past those problems. I too am a solutions guy. Though I don't believe religion will ever be abolished more from the fact that not all people are endowed enough to maintain faith without an outlet such as religious institution to help bolster their resolve. & really there is nothing wrong with those efforts. 1 way for all is simply too neat a package for a complex world.
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
I don't know whether or not we can ever get rid of religion, just like we can't seem to get rid of other superstitions like horoscopes, palm reading, tarot card reading, crystals, etc etc.
People seem to *want* some kind of magical something and are willing to turn off the critical parts of their minds in order to have it.
Perhaps if we taught logic and critical thinking at grade 1 instead of as a university course...
OccamKant 2 years ago
Not sure if the bible god cares about our well-being, but he does care what we think of him. If I were him, I would put undeniable evidence of my existence into the book. Large primes. Crater on the dark side of the moon. Solar eclipse prediction. Anything.
Everyone would have to admit he is the true god! Instead, we get magic tricks chewed through decades of oral tradition.
If you look at a Bible as a collection of mythology rather than a book dictated by a god, suddenly all adds up.
igor983 2 years ago
I agree - it's a bunch of myths written by superstitious and uneducated desert nomads interested in forwarding their own primitive and paternalistic "culture".
It in NO WAY comes across as something written by a hyper-intelligent, hyper-spacial magical being. ;)
OccamKant 2 years ago
Assuming what a being of that nature would write about? I find the most valuable lessons in life are handed down through the generations in the form of moralistic stories that allow us a better understanding of how we "ought to live", of course thats subjective so an example would be more profound (ie Jesus). Though I believe there is an integral part of every human that allows them to understand the "rights from wrongs". Its our desires by nature that we struggle to succumb to or resist.
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
I would imagine a super intelligent being would write something that we still find amazing, not something that completely lines up with the ignorance and prejudice of the time.
There is NOTHING in the bible that comes across in anyway as enlightened. Nothing. Drug induced in some cases, bloody handed in most others, but amazing? Enlightened? No. Not a scrap.
There are books of poetry and philosophy and SCIENCE now that I find awe inspiring, but not the bible. Give me a break.
OccamKant 2 years ago
Perhaps the authors of yesteryear we not going for the flash-and-bang of the novelist today or the imperical data representation of cutting edge R&D...they were obviously not concerned about selling copies of books.....and if they were, somebody would probably be complaining about the intentions of how it was written in such a volume-selling fashion. I don't care for poetry all that much but i see its function and need. If you don't like the book and don't believe in a God....why hound it so?
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
Because OTHERS do, and this belief causes them to act destructively.
For example, the Prop-8 law that passed in California outlawing gay marriage. There is no secular reason for doing this, just a pig-headed, sanctimonious, asshole reason provided by the bible.
One rule that we should all live by, that is NOT taught in the bible is "mind your own business."
Actually, there is: that verse about "get the plank out of your own eye before complaining about the sliver in your neighbor's." MYOB.
OccamKant 2 years ago
And when did I say "flash and bang" - you're teetering on the edge of bullshit here, putting words into my mouth, and perhaps deliberately misinterpreting my meaning.
Flash/Bang implies some shallow, mindless entertainment. I'm talking about something to edify and educate. The constructor of the universe should easily be able to do that, yet the bible is filled with nonsense, evil and bigotry. There is nothing there that a primitive savage wouldn't have come up with himself.
OccamKant 2 years ago
you know those words that capture the mind in a novel that make you want to read on, thats the flash and bang i was speaking of, no words in your motuh, i'll own my own words tyvm!
Once again you would have the construtor of the universe doing what you deem is neccessary to show value. Yet in so doing you show more of what you value in life & nothing else.
nonsense, evil & bigotry written by a primitive savage...purely your own interpretation & one focused on only the aspects you want to see.
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
I would *certainly* have the constructor of the universe produce a work that I myself couldn't have, yes.
I couldn't write a book like Stephen Hawking, or Richard Dawkins. Their knowledge of their subjects is enormous, and allows them to talk about the subjects in ways accessible to the common people.
What is there amazing in the bible? What's even GOOD in the bible? Demanding blood sacrifice?
Are you going to seriously sit there and tell me that it makes sense that the creator wants blood?
OccamKant 2 years ago
I am willing to say I do not fully understand what made sense at the time. I also do not remotely come close to comprehending what a divine being thinks or has for goals. I would not be so egotistical to say "how it should be or ought to be", because I understand humility.
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
What do you mean "what made sense at the time"?
Aren't you one of those "morals are absolute" guys? God is unchanging, morals are unchanging, etc?
You're not being honest with me if you can say that there is any way to defend Elisha's murder of 42 children.
That is wrong. Period. Wrong then, wrong now, wrong forever.
There is also no defense for drowning babies, which is what you propose if you defend the bible & God's actions during the flood.
OccamKant 2 years ago
"nonsense, evil & bigotry written by a primitive savage...purely your own interpretation & one focused on only the aspects you want to see."
Elisha murdered 42 children for calling him bald.
Are you going to tell me that there is some defense to this? And he did it in the name of the lord, which means God backed him up (because God brought the bears).
42 children counts as mass murder. Their crime? Being kids, and calling a stranger names.
Punishment: DEATH BY BEARS! Dun dun dunnnn! Yeah.
OccamKant 2 years ago
what is the intrinsic value of the bible? There should almost be a natural calling within you that should answer that.
all the numbers, quantifications, advancements & technology just bring us further along a road,but not a step up.
It won't tell us how to live, & treat each other with kindness, or see the value of forgiveness.
We still fight each other, squabble, kill, vie for power, belittle & bully our fellow man. All those advancements you spoke of just let us be broke in a different way.
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
There are plenty of poetic and philosophical writings to "elevate our spirit", and far, far better writings than those found in the bible.
The ratio of beauty:scum in the bible is something like 1:1000, which is unfortunate.
Pick up ANY book of poetry and you'll have something more useful to human happiness than the bible.
OccamKant 2 years ago
Since we are all intrinsically different, the impact each book makes on us is different based on the people we are & the people we are at the moment of interacting with a book. It looks like poetry makes the biggest impact on you. I like looking at cooking and nature...but i don't devalue the bible because i am more attentive with other subject matter. Every book is a tool used for good or bad, tho there is relevance in all.
Your ratio 1:1000 speaks more of humanity & less of theistic teaching.
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
I'm sorry, but this is a really lame cop-out.
A book on basic scientific knowledge, explaining about bacteria and cleanliness, about geography and the shape of the world, AND telling people that they are ALL equal (NO BLOODY "CHOSEN PEOPLE") would be FAR more benefit to the people than the bible.
A little science, a little philosophy, would have done wonders.
As it is, the bible just teaches hate and division. A science book wouldn't lead to the inquisition, but the bible did.
OccamKant 2 years ago
"Your ratio 1:1000 speaks more of humanity & less of theistic teaching. "
No, you have that reversed. These awful passages I'm referring to are all done "at god's command", which is theology.
How is it beautiful to teach that you should be killed for working on a sunday? Kill disobedient children? Kill non-virgin brides? Kill blasphemers? Kill men in a different city who don't believe as you do? Kill children for calling a bald guy bald? Kill your own child?
OccamKant 2 years ago
in this time here & now, in this country i am in, through the eyes i peer through now, from the societal norms I have grown accustomed to...well those things seem quite atrocious. Back then....perhaps the norm was different and the words are meant as a stiff warning.
Though in the absence of all religion, we would still find thing to fight about & the world would continue to cartwheel into its degredation. We just find new ways to validate our debauchery and say its "freedom to choose".
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
We would certainly fight a lot LESS without religion.
Only religion gives people the idea that "god is on my side" and "you heathen deserve to die". There is no secular rationalization like that. "Logic is on my side, so you deserve to die"? No, that's just stupid.
Society is different now than 2000 years ago because we've matured.
Don't you think that an all knowing, all powerful deity could have gotten us there in one shot, rather than 2000 years?
OccamKant 2 years ago
you honestly believe that we'd fight less without religion? I don't believe we'd fight more but the fight is because of humans, not the religion. Secular rationalization is thrown out the window for people who don't really care about reasoning...they just fight & don't care about logistics, could be as simple as...i don't like your shirt. Society IS indeed different, but we have not matured....we as a people and world do not stop individual desires for the betterment of the world, we never will.
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
Of course we'd fight less without religion! Religion is a huge reason why we fight (ever heard of "religious wars"?). There is no secular equivalent to a religious war.
People don't fight over who doesn't like your shirt, don't be stupid.
You fight because of greed, or hatred, or religion. And hatred is usually because of religion, so that would really just leave greed.
So yeah, obviously we'd fight much less without religion. How many wars has Scandanavia started? None, as far as I know.
OccamKant 2 years ago
heh, nice with the name calling. I used the example of people fighting cause they don't like your shirt as something trivial, & people will do just that, they will find new trivial things to fight over, you obviously did not see the intention in the words. just greed hatred or religion?...opression, honor, loyalty to a cause, resources, injustices, tyranny, differing opinions, name calling, infractions, expansion, thievery, though some mock your above notations they can also have no similarities
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
Yes, people fight oppression. There is oppression because of greed, as I already said. People fight in self defense, but the NEED for the self defense starts either because of some religious reason or greed.
Most of your examples fall into greed, and you are completely ignoring the ONGOING fighting that has a religious basis. The civil strife in Iraq, for example, is Sunni vs Shia. The ONLY reason they're blowing up each other's mosques is religious.
Religion = evil.
OccamKant 2 years ago
I believe religion is a tool. Like all tools it can be used for good or bad. Religion is not evil, people choose to do evil or good.
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
Religion *is* evil, because it encourages evil behavior in people.
Your religious views guide your thoughts. Thoughts lead to actions.
If your religion tells you that you have some special, magical information that others don't have, if it tells you that science (evolution, cosmology, etc) is wrong/satanic/evil, then you are going to make evil decisions.
If people kept their religions to themselves I wouldn't make these videos. But they don't, so I do.
OccamKant 2 years ago
/watch?v=fFH0khjgA0U
TheHonestTheist 2 years ago
You don't exactly use verses to support your use of scripture either
Eliasauras 3 years ago
Yes I do. Every single point I make about the bible comes from a verse.
If you don't believe me - tell me what I've said that you don't think comes from the bible.
OccamKant 3 years ago
They probably do you just don't give the verses as you have asked me to do.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
Well, be specific. What statements do you mean?
I ask you for biblical backup, because I don't remember reading anything supporting your point of view. I'm perfectly happy providing biblical backup for my points. Just tell me which points you want me to back up.
OccamKant 3 years ago
I don't know to tell you the truth, those are hard verses to understand. Here's another hard thing to understand, why would God allow His own Son to suffer and die on the cross for the sins of men and women who constantly accuse Him of mismanaging the universe? He must love us a lot.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
The crucifixion is such a joke - I can't believe you guys are so in love with the idea.
First, why is God so in love with blood sacrifice? Why does he require blood sacrifice, but he demands that we forgive each other?
Second - Many people died on the cross. What's so special about jesus death? He was only on the cross for 3-6 hours, which was a surprisingly short time.
AND YOU CLAIM HE'S ALIVE AGAIN! So he didn't die, did he? When someone dies, they're GONE. You say JC is still alive.
OccamKant 3 years ago
Ironic: God creates man and gives him free will. Man chooses to disobey and the consequences of disobedience are what we see going on in the world today. What you are blaming God for (slavery) is really a situation of our making in the first place. The Law you like to point out flaws in was never intended to rectify the problem, only manage it until Christ came. And now when God offers His hand to you again, offers you a way out, you call it a joke. Wisdom is proved right by her children.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
These verses are only hard to understand if you believe the bible to be true.
If you believe the bible to be a collection of scribblings by ignorant desert nomads who were making things up to control people, it's perfectly understandable.
OccamKant 3 years ago
The Bible is far to well an established and supported ancient document to call it the scribblings of ignorant desert nomads.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
the same can be said for ALL religious writings.
This argument holds no water at all. The only reason it's "establish" and "supported" is that people have a tendency to believe in crap because of wishful thinking.
If you're going to use that argument, then Astrology is true too. People still read their horoscopes, even though it's completely stupid.
OccamKant 3 years ago
While we are on the topic of slavery, Jesus said whoever sins is a slave to sin John 8:34. Then in verse 36 He said 'if the Son makes you free you will be free indeed." God is very concerned about the slavery. The bondage of our souls was and is a matter of utmost importance to Him.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
So why are there rules in the bible saying you're allowed to beat your slaves to death, as long as your slaves don't die immediately?
How is that "love thy neighbor"? How is that "Do not murder"?
OccamKant 3 years ago
In a way you raise in interesting question: would an infusion of knowledge really help people 2000 years ago? Has it really helped us? We still die. We still murder. We still commit atrocities. Our basic problem is not cognitive it is moral. The Bible you propose as redundunt indicates the answer to man's greatest need:eternal life.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
Are you proposing that the bible is moral?
The bible has rules for when you're supposed to murder other people. How is that moral?
OccamKant 3 years ago
To say the Bible is moral is to speak about it like it was a person. The Bible is a compilation of writings, history, poems, prophecy and so on. In those writings there are stories of atrocities and there are stories of sacrificial love. Does God condone everything written in the Bible, no. Is all the Bible applicable to us today? No. The goal of the Old Testament Law was love, did that happen, not always.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
God DOES the stuff in the bible. When Elisha had 42 children murdered, that was in the name of "God".
That means he condones it.
Where does it show God being sorry about drowning the world? Or Buring the cities, like Sodom?
OccamKant 3 years ago
You are right, God does stuff in the Bible. If you look at the account of the flood God is sorry before the flood. He is sorry that He made man because all that man can think to do is evil. Most people blame God for the way the world is, actually it is God's fault if you want to look at it like that. He made us and He gave us a choice. And we have been reaping the concequences of that choice for thousands of years. Now Jesus is giving us, you, another choice.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
Do you think that God is omniscient? That he knows everything, knows the future, etc?
OccamKant 3 years ago
Let me ask you a question in reply, do you know what it means to be omnisicient? I have to confess to you that I don't know exactly what it means and how it plays out in the future. But if you are going to suggest that God is somehow limited by my lack of knowledge I think you are betting on the wrong horse.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
No - I'm saying there is a problem with the very idea of omniscience.
Omniscience, by definition, means knowing EVERYTHING. Everything that ever was, is, and will be.
I know I've heard Christians hold this point of view, I was just wondering if you held it. That God knew the future - which is why someone could write Revelations.
So - do you think God knows everything, past, present and future?
OccamKant 3 years ago
Jesus said that there would be some who came calling Him Lord and He would say to them "I never knew you: Depart from me you who practice lawlessness." So, no, God doesn't know everything or everyone, at least in the same way.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
That is an odd phrasing in the book - and it sounds more like he's trying to say "I never accepted you, you faker" than "I was unaware of your existence". This particular phrase, as I understand it, is a warning to those who are followers in name only (talk the talk, but don't walk the walk).
There are other examples of God being surprised - like A&E and the apple, in eden, so clearly he is not Omniscient. It's just that many Christians say he IS omniscient - it's the basis of calvanism.
OccamKant 3 years ago
I understand what you are saying and I apologise for being obtuse. I do believe that God is aware of everything, but at the same time it doesn't seem to inhibit Him from dealing with us in time as well and having normal reactions to our choices and so on.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
So god knows everything but doesn't know everything.
Got it. That's super clear. Thanks for making that plain.
OccamKant 3 years ago
No it is just that God doesn't fit in your box that's all.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
Your god is nonsense, that's all.
OccamKant 3 years ago
What "box", anyway? Please describe this "box". The box of rationality? You're saying your god is irrational? That I can accept.
You're saying your god is fictional? That I can accept.
Your saying your god is a personal delusion? That I can accept.
Choose any of these options, and I agree with you.
OccamKant 3 years ago
Let's not forget that there *have* been advancements in the humanities since the bible was written.
We no longer accept slavery (unlike the bible), and we no longer think that invading other countries is "God's Will" - though Bush certainly tried to resurrect that idea.
And thanks to medical science, we can cure diseases! God could have just wiped out disease, if he existed, but he doesn't, so it's up to science to do what it can, and it's done a great job.
OccamKant 3 years ago
Interesting, you propose that the Bible condones slavery and yet Wilberforce, who did much to fight slavery in England, was a Christian, by all accounts. How do you account for that? The Bible is the only book that gives one a moral foundation from which to say 'slavery is wrong'. Without God you really have no basis for the ideas you like to think of as good.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
Obviously because there are good people who recognize evil behaviour even when not explicitly told.
Jesus had rules for slaves. Jesus did not free any slaves. Therefore Jesus was OK with slavery. And the only reason the Jews were released from slavery was that they were God's chosen people, not that he was against slavery in principle. In fact, he told his people to make slaves of others when they conquored cities.
Where in the bible does it say slavery is wrong?
OccamKant 3 years ago
How do you know what a slave is and was in Jesus day? It is possible that some slaves were like hired workers today. It is possible that some slaves had no choice but to be a slave to support their family. Jesus did not come to fix all that is wrong with this world, He came to offer us a choice. But to say that Jesus did not free any slaves is patently false. He has truly freed more people than anyone else can ever hope to. And He has freed us from what really enslaves us:the fear of death
Eliasauras 3 years ago
"How do you know what a slave is and was in Jesus day?"
God damnit I hate it when people try to worm out of it like this. A slave is a slave. Slavery has been around for thousands of years. The Jews were slaves of the Egyptians, and had to be blasted free (supposedly) by god. Does that sound like an employee?
You're allowed to beat your slave to death, but only if he doesn't die on the first day. Does that sound like an employee?
As for "fear of death" Jesus CREATED fear of death, with hell.
OccamKant 3 years ago
Yes a slave is a slave, but there is a vast difference in how slaves were treated. I am not advocating slavery, but I think you are reading twenty first century norms into the past. It is possible, as another person on this thread has hinted, that the very norms you use to judge the past were in fact largely influenced by Christianity, Wilberforce for example, in the first place.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
Christians kept slaves! How can you possibly use that as an excuse!
The bible PROMOTES the idea that one group should be held above (the chosen ones) over another, which is the moral basis for slavery.
It took the secular world to say that we are all equals.
A slave is someone who is a forced servant, with no pay. They have no rights, they are property.
That is the very definition of the word slave. Look it up.
To argue otherwise is to be blatantly dishonest.
Don't bullshit me.
OccamKant 3 years ago
What exactly am I using as an excuse? The Bible does not promote slavery, it doesn't say it is a good thing. It makes allowances for it in the Old Testament probably because that was largely how the world was back then. That is different than God saying, "I want you to have slaves" The New Testament definately points us away from slavery, by telling us "in everything, therefore treat people the same way you want them to treat you" Matthew 7:12.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
By making "allowances" for it, by giving rules for handling slaves, and in fact for DEMANDING THE TAKING OF SLAVES, the bible certainly promotes it.
Obviously in the New Testament they didn't consider people from rival cities and countries to be "people", since Jesus had commands for slaves, and how they should obey their masters.
Jesus never said "Do not take slaves - release all your slaves, it is wrong to enslave anyone at all."
OccamKant 3 years ago
Sorry - but what is the twenty first century "norm" for how slaves are treated? and how is that different from the forced servitude and beatings/killings delivered in the bible?
OccamKant 3 years ago
The twentieth century norm elevates things like slavery to the position of ultimate evil. So much so that a good God could not for one instant allow such a thing to exist on earth and still be good. Slavery isn't good, but it isn't the worst thing that can happen to a person.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
The worst thing that could happen to a person would to be tortured without reprieve, forever.
Hmmm, that sounds like something I've heard from somewhere....
Who would be evil enough to do the worst possible thing to people?
Satan? No, that wasn't it.... who was it.... hmm.....
OccamKant 3 years ago
I think that without God people will torture themselves, because they will never actually be able to satisfy themselves. The irony of atheism is that it doesn't take into account, (how could it?) how much right now man depends on God for the simple pleasures of life.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
I don't depend on god for simple pleasures in life. Please stop with the crap. As an atheist, I take great enjoyment in life.
What pisses me off are liars and idiots.
Why do you think people would torture themselves without god? Take a look at the scandanavian countries - they are the most atheistic on earth, and they are in general the happiest, safest, with the highest standard of living.
What does that tell you?
OccamKant 3 years ago
I'm not discounting what you say, but it wasn't my point. It is entirely possible that atheists in some cases are happier and enjoy life more than Christians. But it is God that makes that possible. The fact that we have government, however competent, the fact that the earth spins around and we have beauty and good things to enjoy is all because of God.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
None of that is because of god. It's all because of natural forces.
The god of the bible ignores the laws of nature every time he answers a prayer. Of course, it's all fiction anyway, but the fact that your god so ignores the laws of physics should show you that the book is fake.
OccamKant 3 years ago
You STILL haven't explained how god torturing people makes any sense if he is a loving god.
What loving parent would burn their children's flesh?
OccamKant 3 years ago
I have suggested that the torture is giving people who persist in unbelief exactly what they want, a godless world.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
How is throwing people into a lake of fire "giving people exactly what they want"?
I don't believe in your bloody minded god, or any other god.
And I don't want to be tortured. I want to live my life minding my own business, and be treated by others the way I treat them.
How does torture figure into that? Why does living a good, but unbelieving life, merit torture, in your eyes?
OccamKant 3 years ago
Atheists seem to want a world without God, why else would you devote so much of your time and creativity trying to prove that God doesn't exist? I am simply suggesting that God may give you exactly what you think you want, A world without God. I don't think it is the world you want and I really hope you figure that out someday.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
Atheists don't believe in magic or fairy tales. You do.
Atheists want a world of rationality, of evidence, of logic and reason. We don't believe in following a "feeling" regarding the truth. The truth is provable, not "from the gut".
I'm perfectly happy to have a god exist, I just want EVIDENCE that one exists before I'll believe it.
My critiques of the bible just show that it's not what people think it is, and it's actually pretty evil.
OccamKant 3 years ago
I would like evidence too. Though i believe it is beneath my place to demand for that evidence. How could I such a limited creature in the scope of all that exists now , before & after, place demands on a being vastly beyond my comprehension or my ability to remotely fathom? How can I be so egotistical to think that my need for HIS proof far outweighs the need other may have who are so much worthier than I? Who am I to ask Him to bend to my will when he himself does not force us to do anything?
hexusziggurat 2 years ago
Why is it beneath you to demand evidence? Christians have been programmed to believe that they are worthless, evil scum, and can't question this god they think exists.
You are a human being, and as such you deserve respect.
But to put it simpler: Science has been able to discover pretty much *all* of the world's processes, and they ALL work according to these natural laws.
Magic, or god, is not part of any of them. There are no phenomena that require magic. THIS is why you should demand proof
OccamKant 2 years ago
And I know it makes Christians feel better to say that there is no morality without god, or other such nonsense, but it's clearly not true.
Atheists are on the whole far more moral than christians. Look at the prison populations for some real statistics.
All you need for a moral basis is the idea "How would you feel if that happened to you". Treat others as you'd like to be treated. That idea was around long before Jesus.
Even animals have basic morals - they live and cooperate in groups.
OccamKant 3 years ago
I guess I would ask you how the idea of universal good came about. It is fine to say that you have this feeling, and I certainly don't deny that you do, but where did the feeling come from?
Eliasauras 3 years ago
You've lost me. When did I say anything about a "universal good"?
Also - I don't *have* to explain observed phenomena. It's enough to observe and take note. Of course, our goal is to explain the phenomena, but just because we may not have an explanation right now doesn't mean we won't come up with one eventually.
It's pretty universal that people in general consider the same kinds of things to be acceptable or objectionable, at least on a personal level - like smacking someone, or helping them
OccamKant 3 years ago
Well you seemed to suggest that we all have a moral basis, we are all capable of asking the question "How would you feel if that happened to you?" And you seem to suggest that we all would generally come the the same conclusion. I paraphrased that as "universal good"
Eliasauras 3 years ago
Well, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing, that people generally like to be cooperated with, and generally dislike being smacked around?
Do you agree or disagree that people like to be treated pretty much the same the world over, regardless of culture?
OccamKant 3 years ago
Yes i agree, i just don't think you have a very good explanation for why we all think the same way. It makes more sense to me that we were all created in the image of God and therefore we all have somewhat of a moral compass.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
Are monkeys, dogs, pirhanas etc all created in the image of god too then?
Because they all have the same kinds of responses to treatment. Treat them well, they like you. Treat them badly, they don't like you.
OccamKant 3 years ago
What does "image of god" mean anyway? If we're god copies, then we should have magical powers, right?
If not, where do you draw the line between what we got from god and what we didn't?
Give biblical verses for backup, please.
OccamKant 3 years ago
In the beginning of the Bible, Genesis 1:27, "God created man in His own image." I don't know exactly what that means but it has something to do with man's ability to rule over the earth (verse 28). Man can reason, he can make judgements based on reason, he can will, he can feel deeply. This creates the capacity to rule wisely, like God would. In my opinion this is largely what it means to be created in the image. It has nothing to do with magic.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
In other words, you have no idea what "in his image" actually means, just a bunch of guesses.
Do you realize that you can't use that as a point of argument?
OccamKant 3 years ago
I gave you a reasoned response, the image of God is being endowed with reason, will and emotions that create the capacity to govern the earth. Where are the guesses?
Eliasauras 3 years ago
You didn't give me any bible quotes supporting you.
Therefore it's all your conjecture.
OccamKant 3 years ago
A simpler explanation is that the bible is just saying that god looks like a human.
No reason for that, of course. If there is a magical super being who existed outside of space and time, what need would he have for feet, for toenails, for hair? How about a penis? Does God have a penis? Is it circumcised?
OccamKant 3 years ago
That would be a simpler explanation if you took the verse out of context, in context it relates to the ability to rule.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
You guys really don't understand what "out of context" means, do you?
You can't just take a clearly evil or stupid or contradictory passage and cry "out of context" when you don't like what it says.
A REAL out of context quote would be one where if you read the next (or previous) sentence it would change the apparent meaning of the misquote.
What sentence before or after the "in his image" quote would change the apparent nonsense of it?
OccamKant 3 years ago
None if you insist that it is nonsense.
Eliasauras 3 years ago
The idea that we are "copies" of god is of course nonsense - we don't have the magical powers that you claim he does.
It's also nonsense that god would have feet or a penis, since if he existed outside of space and time, then what would he need a body for? In fact, a body out in space would be a drawback, a weakness. You would die.
So it's nonsensical - the very definition of nonsense.
Unless you're going to provide some verses before or after that would make sense of the apparent senseless.
OccamKant 3 years ago
I can make guesses as to why people like being helped, and don't like to be smacked, but I'm sure you can too, and it really shouldn't be much of a puzzler.
OccamKant 3 years ago
At first I thought the exercise you proposed was one in futility, until you suggested we compare our idea of a book of all-importance with the bible. Pure genius, my friend.
Similarly, I ask people what single CD they would take with them to another planet. The responses I get are mostly pop music CD's, sometimes the Beetles, and the like. I always suggest Beethoven's 9th, which is met with disgust. The average person shuts themselves in when they find something they like, such as the bible.
DanLightning 3 years ago
Yopu made the assertion that the bible was FULL of contradictions. Didnt you????
ageofgrace 3 years ago
Oh, that assertion. Sure. The bible IS full of contradictions.
What's your point?
OccamKant 3 years ago
I must remind you Occ that you also have made the misleading assertion in a very deceiving way that a supposed "GOD"s main concern with humanity is , or should be, to help mankind invent a better mousetrap or build a bigger LCD TV. The very fact that you perceive the essential needs and problems of mankind as material and physical are precisely the misguided worldview that the Bible does address.
ageofgrace 3 years ago
I never said anything about mousetraps or lcd tvs.
How about medical science? Actual health science, instead of bullshit like demons? Why are pigs "unclean"? Because of trichinosis, which isn't a problem if you actually know how to handle the meat.
How about some truth about the creation of the universe, rather than the bullshit in genesis 1?
Personally, I think truth and honesty are important, but obviously you don't.
OccamKant 3 years ago
Occ, what would lead you to beleive that I dont value truth or honesty?? It seems that this is another assertion of yours that needs backing up
ageofgrace 3 years ago
Because you're putting words in my mouth, and disregarding the words I actually said.
The point of my video, which is pretty plain, is that just about any book we have now on the natural sciences, or on law, or on philosophy, if sent back 2000 years would be more useful than the bible.
You babbled on about lcd tvs or mousetraps. You're trying to trivialize the point I made, rather than address it.
That's dishonest, and you know it.
OccamKant 3 years ago
Also, the bible is untrue and dishonest. The world was NOT created the way it was described in genesis. There was no global flood. People did not live 900 years. Rainbows were around since light has been able to pass through water.
If you defend the bible, you defend dishonesty.
OccamKant 3 years ago
"I never said anything about mousetraps or lcd tvs."
I think what he was suggesting is that ultimately frivolous things like mousetraps and TV's are all we get from science. On the contrary, I believe that with science we can more fully understand our world and forgo the horrors of war, prejudice, and most other types of human-inflicted suffering.
Ben Stein once said in an interview that science only brings death. Nobody has ever waged war because of their scientific beliefs!
DanLightning 3 years ago
Occ....you made the assertion! not me.
Your videos are full of intellectually dishonest and unreasonable comments. You say the Bible is FULL of contradictions. That would lead me to believe that you have studied it and found many of them. Give me one solid contradiction from your vast inventory of biblical contradictions. And by the way,... I am addressing the video.....you said IN the video that the Bible was FULL of contradictions. Didnt you???
ageofgrace 3 years ago
I made what assertion?
Yes, the bible is full of contradictions. And I have certainly discovered many of my own, though of course I'm sure plenty of others have seen the same contradictions and commented on them.
I will give you two contradictions. You're not allowed to say "out of context" unless you give me the expanded context and how it changes things.
Anyway: Numbers 22:20 vs 22:22
and Matthew 5:16 vs Matt 6:1
OccamKant 3 years ago
Holy Cow...has this guy even read the Bible???
I would love to be there to see this guy hand a copy of "The God Delusion" to the apostle Paul.
I have debated atheist teenagers that are more intellectually honest and knowledgeable on the Bible than this joker.
ageofgrace 3 years ago
Address the video. What in the bible is actually useful? Give me some verses with day to day utility.
Explain why they're more useful than any book we have today that could be sent back.
Imagine how useful a world map would be. Or an explanation of germs.
The bible is full of ignorance and superstition.
Prove me wrong, or present yourself as an example of said ignorance and superstition.
OccamKant 3 years ago
Better question. If you could have written a book back then that would serve as a reminder of how to live and have it last centuries, could we do better than the bible? I would bet that they could have as evidenced by such writings as the magna carta.
cowboycoco 3 years ago
My book that I would send back to ancient people would include basic concepts concerning human health. The Bible exemplifies ignorance when speaking of such subjects because it attributes all diseases to sin. A book with modern health concepts could alleviate more pain then all the prayers of all the priests and rabbis combined.
The Bible, and everything that is in it, as Sam Harris has pointed out, is exactly what you would expect from a primitive people living in a primitive time.
alphacause 3 years ago
Instructions on how to make a telescope/microscope among other things. What disease is and how to cure it? Whatever needed to bring about the industrial revolution back then. How to make a lightbulb? How to make a proper furnace... mmm the list just continues to expand.
Shalek 3 years ago
amazing!!!
SCIENCE is more reasonable than bible!!!
limoncello182 3 years ago
OccamKant, You are criminally undersubscribed. Great video. All your vids are excellent.
agnosticman77 3 years ago
Why, thank you, agnosticman77!
OccamKant 3 years ago
Teach something about medicine, agriculture, science, how to make a printing press, how to establish a good government, condemn slavery, condemn child molesting,.... etc. Good video!
Pronghorn22 3 years ago
Thought-provoking. You make a number of good points.
One thing: remember that it was common to have multiple wives and concubines back then. Our perceptions of adultery and promiscuity are largely a result of Christian influence.
YTrann 3 years ago