I hold an undergrad degree in Sociology/Anthropology with a minor in Psych. One of the first things they taught us in stats, which was a required course for my degree, that if you alter your delta (margin of error) you can prove anything as long as you place a disclaimer somewhere (usually buried at the end of your study). Further most psych research, which your opponent was relying upon heavily, starts it's data gathering trying to prove it's point... TBC
PT 2.... and the data is thrown out if it doesn't prove it. I had a wonderful prof for Sociology of Deviance who preferred to see what the data from your study showed and draw conclusion from that. Your opponent just kept sawing "you're not understanding my argument" as if you weren't responding and picking apart his argument. I don't know how many times he said "forget race, I don't care about race. Let's call them groups... So in this study it showed RACE..." like he was stuck on it. Good Job
I know little or next to nothing about the topics discussed and have only anecdotal evidence (from my time spent as a school teacher) to draw on. Students whose parents read and discuss things at home generally speaking do well at school; students whose parents are less well educated generally speaking don't do so well! The debate has certainly given me the impetus to delve more deeply into these generalisations and do some reading myself. Thanks!
Fringe stammered in the end, whereas the SH spoke decisive and appeared (and prolly was - I have to read up on this stuff) more sure of himself and of the discussed subject.
Furthermore: It is UNACCEPTABLE in a professional discussion to utter phrases like "I dont really want to hear what you have to say".
This is highly disengenious, since a debate is based on the premise that both parties are willing to admit when they are proven wrong.
Just finished watching all the debate vids start to finish.Overall impression. Despite TSH to labouring the point over and over again. Fringe briefly gets it "Wait, what?" mid to late part2c. Yet he is so Psychologically Committed to his preconception he wont go with it.
The salient thing was how similar Fringe's concept of race was to "Kinds" the creationists insist on.NO DEFINITION WHATSOVER no matter how hard you press them.Both concepts are superficial and have no relationship to reality
Cont...It is this superficiality that belies the ignorance views and its backwardness. This is in part mentioned by TSH early on although not linked to the creationists.
Another similarity, apparently thinking a refuation of your argument with facts calls for more arguments without facts.
I found the "debate" far more entertaining than the best of comedy. The long silences or alternate exasperation and cussing from Fringe.
Gratz TSH. I subbed a day or so ago. I can see I was well justified
But hey it will only serve to expand his popularity to people who arent bound by being politically correct and actually seek to find the truth, so thanks guys.
Im loving all the Fringe bashing it shows how mature skeptical's drones are.
They probably would be the same types of people that cheer on a bully after hes done beating someone up and then justify it by saying the nerd deserved it for having a different preference than us.
searching for the truth hardly seems a reason to call someone a "racist" you dont see fringeelements going around and killing or imposing his preferences on people do you? People should be able to voluntarily associate with who they wish even if they have a "preference" on who they feel like associating with for whatever reasons even if they be "social constructs", its kinda funny if the debate was about statism vs antistatism i believe fringe would have walked circles around heretic.
I've been kind of busy this week so I've only just gotten around to watch these, and what can I say? I am in awe. You have just elevated pwnage to levels that I'm not sure can ever be surpassed. The utter annihilation was quite stunning to behold, and frankly I'm still in a state of disbelief. The only thing that could possibly have made it better is if he'd burst into tears. Amazing. Just amazing. Well done.
@theskepticalheretic I strongly agree that you are evidently not an expert in genetics or indeed the subject of race and society. I am repeatedly struck by the numerous failures of logic and knowledge in your arguments. I disagree with you on a great many things it seems. Nevertheless your closing remarks in relation to responsibly educating oneself as to this topic (as with any other) were FANTASTIC and should I think be quoted at the opening and closing of all YT debates henceforth. Great job!
@theskepticalheretic SIMPLY A MASTERFUL JOB. I USed to feel so alone with my views esp as someone who just happens to be black. now i feel such a part of a bigger community. who cares if you are mostly all non-black, its about the community of ideas, culture, ideas and narrative constructs
""I don't really care to listen to what you have to say."
Shit, this isn't a YT comment flamewar, it was a somewhat formal debate, at least have the common courtesy to finish what you started don't be cunty about it :S
So from now on if any of y'all get into an argument of any kind with him at some point just go "I don't really care to listen to what you have to say" and bail.
yeah and what is it with people taking things out of context and applying them in situations that dont represent what they were meant for, annoying huh?
Thought you would find this interesting, go over to latimes blogs and look up this report: /booster_shots/2009/09/spanking-iq.html "Spanking lowers a child's IQ, researcher says" - Childhood violence is linked with poverty. Low IQ is also linked with poverty. Hmmn?
It's a pity, that a person, when logical and scientifically proven wrong numerous times on several subtopics, still claws on it's bias instead of just admitt - yep, I was wrong.
It is beyond me how anyone who claims to be intelligent can not see from experience, as well as peer reviewed science, how environment plays such a crucial role in what we measure as "intelligence".
It is beyond me how anyone claims to be intelligent can not see from experience, as well as peer reviewed science, how environment plays such a crucial role in what we measure as "intelligence".
@culturalhonesty Are you guys still here? You're arguments have been destroyed, and the people who care about what you have to say dwindle by the hour. I recommend finding some other way to rebel against mommy.
@bassbole ok so we are in the same boat, neither of us know why multiculturalism is good, other than different types of foods and better sports athletes. So you are a white nationalist as well
@culturalhonesty So your idea is that if a white person doesn't have a reason to not be a white nationalist, then by default they're a white nationalist.
@culturalhonesty I didn't see this question when you originally posted it but I can answer why.
Because there are attractive intelligent women from other nationalities that through procreating with them would result in more diverse immune systems allowing for greater survivability of the species over the long term.
Maybe you've addressed it in other videos which I haven't seen, but I'm curious about your thoughts on affirmative action programs, and things like the ethnicity or race question on the census form.
Listen to me ramble on like a fucking chimpanzee, but I'm not going to listen to the arguments that have already defeated me. I wonder why. Fucking coward. Fuck that guy.
@kainniak1 Yeah, red apples are sweeter. It doesn't matter that two large fat green or red apples have more in common than different sized red apples, or that red apples vary in sweetness greater than the average difference between red and green apples, or that red apples are grown differently, with more fertiliser and sunlight.
I'll still buy the red apples. (chokes on his red apple and is put in glass coffin)
I think that FE is really overestimating how quickly and pervasively environmental factors actually affect the development of humanity as a species or a racial subset. It takes multiple generations for races to develop further apart from their original genome. He seems to think that one person can have their DNA radically altered by not reading a book for a year.
@scarletspeed7 well some attributes, the ones directly affected by the environment, like skin tone, can change very rapidly due to selection while other attributes that are unchallenged or not selected for will not rapidly change.
I'm not open minded when it comes to racism. People always say "Be open minded" but having an open mind also requires a screen or filter to keep the shitty ideas out. EVEN IF people of other races were/are inferior to me in IQ, what gives me the right to say that I am inherently better? I filter out racism as an idea that doesn't seem right to me. Fringe's side of the debate hasn't served the purpose of swaying me to the other side. Just treat (ALL) people well and shut the fuck.
I can't understand where your argument that race doesn't exist and that therefor can not be inheritable. If race wasn't inheritable, women would give birth to random colored people and forensic scientists couldn't determine the race of a person by their skeletal remains. If local environmental pressures can affect bone density, skin color, hair texture etc, why can't it effect intelligence or any other characteristic?
@jimthepleb Thanks. I'll look at them. I am not trying to be rhetorical or wise ass and I'm not racist, but it seems to me that large populations separated for 10's of thousands of years in radically different environments could produce very small changes in things like aggression, emotion and intelligence (whatever that is).
@christo930 Why are serial killers in the US almost exclusively white, after all, blacks live in the US too? To say that it is completely impossible that any minor differences in cognitive processes could effect certain abilities or tendencies is not realistic. But most importantly, why does the social environment change with race?
ALL YOU DO IS TALK OVER AND INTIMIDATE HIM THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE FUCKING SOIREE SON.
He's browbeaten to the point that you just spew sophistry and logical fallacies that you yourself have been called on using before.
You beat down a fucking kid with asberges with superior debating skills. You won the debate, but only by showing an utter lack of respect for the rules of debating.
This train wreck needed a moderator because you clearly need someone to hold your leash and force you to be polite.
@theskepticalheretic I'm curious if you have any thoughts on my other comments on this video. I am not taking sides and I do appreciate the amount of work you put into this. However, it is not typical in oral debates to have such a broad topic and so many references. You basically flooded the debate. This would be highly appropriate and productive in a written debate, but not an oral debate.
@christo930 my only thoughts here are that you're not inquiring, you're looking to troll. Now, as for my use of sources, I would make a statement, FE wouldn't challenge it. He would make a statement, I would challenge it with the detracting sources and assert a statement against his point. He wouldn't answer to it and would instead go right back to the same point I just put down. He came to debate egalitarianism, not the facts of genetics or the influence of environment.
@theskepticalheretic I don't know much about you other than this debate, I am not trolling you. All of the comments I have made on your videos have been respectful and honest. There are many things I agree with you on the debate you had, but that wouldn't be interesting to talk to you about those things (I would be interested in talking to him about those things). If it is a fact that environment accounts for all (or most)the differences, what do you think we should do to rectify the situation?
@theskepticalheretic Blacks have made strides in the US, but are clearly disproportionately poor, incarcerated and have lower standards of living than other US groups. I personally think it is in EVERYONE'S interest to close that gap. If environment is what is causing the disparity between blacks and whites, then we should be able to address the situation. Education is obviously a good start, but I think other things like AA have in some ways, made the situation worse.
@christo930 Imagine if great men like Neil Tyson and Thomas Sowell (just an example of 2 black men I admire) hadn't been able to "break through", and more importantly, how many more Neil Tysons and Thomas Sowells are sitting in prison, or are uneducated or otherwise weren't able to make such contributions to society, science, economics etc. Imagine the things that haven't been invented or knowledge not discovered because of this problem. If we CAN fix it, then we SHOULD fix it. I don't know how.
@christo930 In his book, "Punishing the Poor: The Neoliberal Government of Social Insecurity" scholar Loïc Wacquant argues that, after slavery, blacks were effectively ghettoized in major cities to provide cheap labor. As US industry shifted manufacturing offshore and educated blacks fled the inner city, these self-contained ghettos broke down and the prison system emerged as the new ghetto to take their place. It is primarily social control, not profit that is behind the ghettos.
@0gods Blacks were used for breaking strikes as well. They would literally bus blacks from the south to the northern cities when there were large scale strikes to break the strike and keep wages low. I personally believe we need to break mos of the teachers unions and get rid of unproductive educators.
@christo930 I'm not a fan of affirmative action, from what I've read, the best methodology to address inequality is through providing robust and free standard education, but I can't speak to it conclusively as the majority of functional hypotheses haven't been tried.
@christo930 If you are so inclined to converse with me, based on my honest assertion that I am not a troll, do you have any ideas about why so many other hated minorities have been able to excel in the US? For example, Japanese people were decimated during WW2 and for a long time after that, they were stripped of all their property and thrown in prison and can't hide their "race", yet they are among the highest earners and achievers.
@christo930 you're over simplifying the situation in the extreme. I'm also not a sociology or economics teacher. If you are so inclined, I'd strongly suggest you hit the library and start reading from experts on the topic.
@Pyramidhead1337 you do reliaze that it was FE who didn't want one right? Sh wanted one so....seems to me your point here is moot, as it was SH who wanted one.
Good god, you guys really will just reach for anything will you guys...
Also, I guess let's forgot all of the times FE talked over him...right?
At least from what we can tell about him through his voice, fringe has normal intonation and seems to understand figures of speech reasonably well. I sort of doubt he has Asperger's. My diagnosis? Racist dick.
I seriously want to know where Fringey gets off saying that black students intentionally do worse in experiments because they're promoting egalitarianism conjecture that makes his story look good.
@sofiarune Well it's a conspiracy of "multiculturalists" and "cultural marxists" remember? People are out to demonize the "white man" and blame them for what really are "innate faults" of others... And hence of course people will "intentionally flunk tests".
Well that's roughly the thought process distilled I think.
Nevermind that studies of these type don't expose the intention of the study to the subjects precisely to avoid those kinds of biases.
@laalki80 How would Lynn have helped him? Given that in the last 3 years numerous studies have shown that his IQ numbers for countries are extremely poor, subject to biased sampling or grossly non-representative sampling, and omissions of some studies simply because they are "too high". For expositions reach Wichert and also Hart who analyses broadly the way people present their findings.
Watching Fringe debate is like entering into the Twilight Zone. When he kept reading his talking points to an empty screen, I just about about laughed my nuts off. Also, I took a shot every time he said, "I don't know," or any variation on that theme.
Rage quitting, does not serve your argument. Quitting a debate, that had up until the moment of the RQ been civil, only shows that you are using emotions instead of logic. Emotions are a poor foundation to base a position, such as the one FE holds, and will cause your argument to crumble into a pile of rubble in the face of facts.
It is my sincere wish that FE, HeyRuka and others on that side of the argument will see the facts as they are, not as they wish them to be.
Fringe articulated himself as well as any hyena. His fustratinos were very apparent throughout the whole debate, and the more he got fustrated the more he couldn't make his points. This was not a debate. This was a beatdown of a schoolyard bully who cannot defend himself after being pantsed and humiliated. Then kicking a garbage can down afterwards because he's pissed he couldn't do a thing. Thumbs way up! Subbed!
Fringe is a schoolyard bully, He directly insults people. I actually gave fringe a compliment in one of my response videos after called me a moron in several of his videos, and he twisted it around to make it look like I was being negative and attacking him, rarely actually arguing the points I was making, only minor vague points I made as side comments. The guy is a self-deluded self-interested spin-doctor and I'm surprised fox news hasn't found him and given him a job yet.
@anubis2814 you are full of argumentations you just debunked everything he said oh and being polite to someone immediately means you have moral superiority therefore he is evil if he does not return the favor, talking to economic illiterate such as yourself can be frustrating.
@trilerkiler And yes he has such an impressive education in economics, I have listened to a lot of lecture courses but I would never ever consider myself an expert because I listened to a few lecture courses.
FE: (8:40-ish) I am disappointed with this debate, because I don't think that you are TRYING to UNDERSTAND my arguments...
The debator's job is not to convince their opponent, but to convince the audience one way or another on a proposition. I don't think Fringe was very convincing. If this indeed was why Fringe was disappointed, then he himself ought to be doing some serious reflection on his own position. I doubt, however that he'll do so, making his remark highly hypocritical.
@theskepticalheretic A masterful handling of someone completely unwilling to re-examine his poorly-considered position when it is exposed as lacking in the light of reality. And a perfect closing message.
@Sivels He's been 'debating' on YouTube for the last five years or longer. He just ran across someone that had their shit together. FYI, stodles is not interested in 'debate', he's only interested in promoting his viewpoint and recruiting the gullible.
@HeavyTrafficAhead "he's only interested in promoting his viewpoint and recruiting the gullible." do you have any specific evidence for this is this just a talking point of the 'lynch fringeelements mob'?
@ThePariahLivesOn caught that too eh XD oh fringe's childish stupidity had me gutlaughing half the time and oh I'm allowed to talk now? Well fuck this post, RAGEQUIT.
It's clear that you won. He wasn't ready for this debate, seemed to jump everywhere (from what I've seen thus far) and just didn't seem to understand what he was talking about...also rage quitting at the end is not a good sign, ya, it's clear you won this.
Wow I think Fringeelements will be walking funny for weeks, he got fucked in the ass. Fringeelements the former white nationalist AKA Nazi is a fucking joke without a bloody clue. I pity the fool.
i would consider myself an egalitarian... and i don't see why that would necessarily be an incorrect position to defend, as my understanding of the term is not based on an argument that all people are the same, but equal in rights/responsibilities and deserve to have equal opportunity in life to succeed. i think it is good for the society when people are in the position to compete against others to begin with.
At the end, real quick, FE says he's not a white nationalist anymore (lol) but he thinks people would be happier staying with their own races. To that kind of stupid ass statement I can only ask... then why don't they?
oh oh oh can I play devil's advocate for 11:28 around there? So why did you choose the word "endowed"? Where do these different abilities come from, and do they count if you can't isolate the genes for them? //Yeah, "egalitarian", is a strawman term that makes me chuckle. Who thinks people are not different. In high school I was taught egalitarian is a political term, and is used in the other direction. Meaning we have equal value and strive for equal opportunities. Not that we are the SAME.
Great series! I had the time to watch only excerpts, but its clear that you, theskepticalheretic, did an excellent job of making FE's inherent bias crystal clear.
The cliché "Enough rope" comes to mind. Any reasonably intelligent listener could see that you demolished FE's position, even given the fact that he monopolized the conversation.
It's funny that after so much verbiage from FE, he leaves when you begin to speak at about frame 9:26. Yes, a DEFINITE "rage quit" from FE.
Just have to add that I wish everybody who ever took a side in an internet debate would watch what you say from frame 12:33 onward. I might just add that it's import not just to LISTEN to the experts,but to READ them too.
geeze this guy is kinda nutz - design an education to make one's life easier - hell I wouldn't trust this guy to design my education system based on his concept of what would make anyone's life better - sounds like he has control issues - why not design an education system that brings out the fullest potential of the individual? we all have talents and some how I doubt this guy has a high enough IQ to know one's potential - he can't see his own yet and he ran away lol
@Judy101101 geeze take a look at our world today - looks like a few experts can't figure out how problems are solved lol I wouldn't trust an educated expert on anything at this point since they all clearly suck mostly caused by their bias and they are all biased as every human is - I measure outcome to be the best expert lol
looser always win - the group being suppressed will eventually be smart enough to over come their suppressors - then the suppressor now being suppressed being the new looser will eventually outsmart the new suppressor - losers will alway win making IQ relevant to where they are in the cycle
I see the latest spin coming from people like SardonicEwok is that you filibustered the debate. Obviously the people pushing that bullshit bullet point are counting on others not watching the debate
thank you so much this meeting of the minds has shown me that my position on it derived from reading and university study of evolutionary biology that race is a socio-political construct. along with the research in genetics and all the papers in genetics tearing the racists a new one have far past validated my position.But further study could be useful.
The dude clearly doesn't get it, Caucasians are more different from each other than they are from their African brethren, and he says "that doesn't matter" and then in his "closing" cites studies giving IQ scores for "whites" and "blacks"--how brain dead do you have to be? If you are going to arbitrarily pick skin color as a means to identify a group, when skin color is superficial and not an indicator of the amount of genetic difference between groups, what do you think you are proving?
My overall thoughts: I think it's a mistake to say that environment is "x%" responsible for differences in intelligence, because that percentage itself depends on the environment. That is, in some environments any differences in intelligence might be due mainly to genetics.
In an environment like the U.S, which is a culture that is, arguably, highly antagonistic to intelligence, environment would be expected to have a very large effect.
@KevinSolway FE's argument rests on race being a genetic fact, problem is, he hasn't provided any sources showing that such a thing exists, rather saying genetic differences=race, that is too vague when one takes into account the genetic variation amongst Sub Saharan Africans. Until he can provide genetic evidence for race, he can't say intelligence is racial determined or influenced because if it truly was, there would be no exceptions (e.g. some blacks being smarter than some whites).
@HybridD91 "FE's argument rests on race being a genetic fact"
He didn't define race very clearly, and I think he was aware that race is difficult to define, so I"m provisionally prepared to give him some lee-way on that. To me, the current evidence for racially determined intelligence is unconvincing, but at the same time I would be surprised if there were no racially determined intelligence. We can disprove certain definitions of race, but not of others.
@KevinSolway He changed his position (he was pretty confident in his definition of race before this debate). At first was saying because there are genetic differences, we can separate populations into race and when SH talked about genetic variation within the 'white race', specifically, the French and English and amongst others, he started saying race is a social construct. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't any raciallly detemined intelligence because there can't be exceptions w/ heredity.
@HybridD91 We could define the French and the English to be different races if we wanted to. The reason I wouldn't be surprised if intelligence was racially determined is that I can imagine populations in which the least intelligent are killed, or not allowed to breed. And I can imagine other, separate populations, who do the exact opposite, and kill the intelligent. I would expect this to result in different levels of intelligence in the different populations.
@KevinSolway He defines race as a social construct based upon observable evidence...like skin color and the like. Although intelligence is partially heritable, FE fails to understand that genes are affected by the environment greatly, so even if it is heritable it isn't that important if you're not in a good environment and not to mention that you can't really correlate intelligence/IQ with race since you just admitted it's just an arbitrary form of labeling/categorization.
@Christ724 "He defines race as a social construct "
He qualified that by saying that a forest is also a social construct, but that a forest is also really physically different to that which is not a forest. If we can correlate certain characteristics with the category "forest" then we may well be able to correlate intelligence with different populations of people, and different average genetic patterns. However, that won't be easy, because of all the factors involved. (more)
@KevinSolway Kevin in population genetics race does not exist it is not consider a valid classification. And even basic understanding of population genetics and genetic biology shows that. And the sources Scepticalheretic has is a good start
Also humans have existed for the most part in equaliberium and have always interacted and ''mixed'' with other populations being in equaliberium means that changes tend to come slower and are often less signifigant.
He used to be a racial egalitarian and a white nationalist?
rightwingHateSpeech 2 weeks ago
bibble babble.
rightwingHateSpeech 2 weeks ago
aaaand subbed for just witnessing the finest display of pwnage ever seen in human history. That was indeed brutal, I actually felt sorry for fringe.
Can't you feel any pity for lesser minds at all?
assalane 4 months ago
omg....unbelievable stuff. God help /just the expression) us from such minds
ScuderiaProdrive 4 months ago
omg....unbelievable stuff. God help us from such minds
ScuderiaProdrive 4 months ago
Good stuff.
UnitedKingdomify 5 months ago
I don't understand why IQ and genetics were the primary focus of the argument and not cultural heritage. Fringeelements is NOT an intelligent man.
Nationalism is a social construct. Families are a social construct. Government's are a social construct. Economics are a social construct.
Shit, even the internet is a social construct.
When are we going to go beyond the argument of "x is a social construct"? This equalitarianist Cop Out argument is lame.
krystallnacht1 5 months ago
Fringe @8:53:
"...I think this came from a false perception that you had of me that I am, like, obsessed with race. Now, I used to be a White Nationalist, but..."
And, you're done.
honeyspiderii 6 months ago in playlist More videos from theskepticalheretic 5
I hold an undergrad degree in Sociology/Anthropology with a minor in Psych. One of the first things they taught us in stats, which was a required course for my degree, that if you alter your delta (margin of error) you can prove anything as long as you place a disclaimer somewhere (usually buried at the end of your study). Further most psych research, which your opponent was relying upon heavily, starts it's data gathering trying to prove it's point... TBC
Avonidsed 6 months ago
PT 2.... and the data is thrown out if it doesn't prove it. I had a wonderful prof for Sociology of Deviance who preferred to see what the data from your study showed and draw conclusion from that. Your opponent just kept sawing "you're not understanding my argument" as if you weren't responding and picking apart his argument. I don't know how many times he said "forget race, I don't care about race. Let's call them groups... So in this study it showed RACE..." like he was stuck on it. Good Job
Avonidsed 6 months ago
This debate was certainly worth watching
johnnythechipmunk 6 months ago
I know little or next to nothing about the topics discussed and have only anecdotal evidence (from my time spent as a school teacher) to draw on. Students whose parents read and discuss things at home generally speaking do well at school; students whose parents are less well educated generally speaking don't do so well! The debate has certainly given me the impetus to delve more deeply into these generalisations and do some reading myself. Thanks!
AndroidThePoet 6 months ago
GoogleTechTalks
"Genetics and Intelligence"
/watch?v=62jZENi1ed8
otur1 6 months ago
I don't really want to hear what you have to say!?
I smells me some butthurt.
Herufaia 6 months ago
From a purely "entertainment" viewpoint:
Fringe stammered in the end, whereas the SH spoke decisive and appeared (and prolly was - I have to read up on this stuff) more sure of himself and of the discussed subject.
Furthermore: It is UNACCEPTABLE in a professional discussion to utter phrases like "I dont really want to hear what you have to say".
This is highly disengenious, since a debate is based on the premise that both parties are willing to admit when they are proven wrong.
Why else debate
HaploidCell 6 months ago
i love how he just runs away
TyTyMcBerg 6 months ago
Just finished watching all the debate vids start to finish.Overall impression. Despite TSH to labouring the point over and over again. Fringe briefly gets it "Wait, what?" mid to late part2c. Yet he is so Psychologically Committed to his preconception he wont go with it.
The salient thing was how similar Fringe's concept of race was to "Kinds" the creationists insist on.NO DEFINITION WHATSOVER no matter how hard you press them.Both concepts are superficial and have no relationship to reality
kommissarw 6 months ago
Cont...It is this superficiality that belies the ignorance views and its backwardness. This is in part mentioned by TSH early on although not linked to the creationists.
Another similarity, apparently thinking a refuation of your argument with facts calls for more arguments without facts.
I found the "debate" far more entertaining than the best of comedy. The long silences or alternate exasperation and cussing from Fringe.
Gratz TSH. I subbed a day or so ago. I can see I was well justified
kommissarw 6 months ago
But hey it will only serve to expand his popularity to people who arent bound by being politically correct and actually seek to find the truth, so thanks guys.
ProDCloud 6 months ago
Im loving all the Fringe bashing it shows how mature skeptical's drones are.
They probably would be the same types of people that cheer on a bully after hes done beating someone up and then justify it by saying the nerd deserved it for having a different preference than us.
ProDCloud 6 months ago
@ProDCloud I'm loving all of the racists claiming the moral high ground.
Honestly, neither group has impressed me in this debate.
cogar48 6 months ago
@cogar48
searching for the truth hardly seems a reason to call someone a "racist" you dont see fringeelements going around and killing or imposing his preferences on people do you? People should be able to voluntarily associate with who they wish even if they have a "preference" on who they feel like associating with for whatever reasons even if they be "social constructs", its kinda funny if the debate was about statism vs antistatism i believe fringe would have walked circles around heretic.
ProDCloud 6 months ago
I've been kind of busy this week so I've only just gotten around to watch these, and what can I say? I am in awe. You have just elevated pwnage to levels that I'm not sure can ever be surpassed. The utter annihilation was quite stunning to behold, and frankly I'm still in a state of disbelief. The only thing that could possibly have made it better is if he'd burst into tears. Amazing. Just amazing. Well done.
TheLivingDinosaur 6 months ago 29
@TheLivingDinosaur Thank you my friend, I appreciate the high praise.
theskepticalheretic 6 months ago 2
@theskepticalheretic I strongly agree that you are evidently not an expert in genetics or indeed the subject of race and society. I am repeatedly struck by the numerous failures of logic and knowledge in your arguments. I disagree with you on a great many things it seems. Nevertheless your closing remarks in relation to responsibly educating oneself as to this topic (as with any other) were FANTASTIC and should I think be quoted at the opening and closing of all YT debates henceforth. Great job!
REALITY2point0 5 months ago
@theskepticalheretic SIMPLY A MASTERFUL JOB. I USed to feel so alone with my views esp as someone who just happens to be black. now i feel such a part of a bigger community. who cares if you are mostly all non-black, its about the community of ideas, culture, ideas and narrative constructs
reg12269 1 week ago
""I don't really care to listen to what you have to say."
Shit, this isn't a YT comment flamewar, it was a somewhat formal debate, at least have the common courtesy to finish what you started don't be cunty about it :S
So from now on if any of y'all get into an argument of any kind with him at some point just go "I don't really care to listen to what you have to say" and bail.
MarkArandjus 6 months ago
@MarkArandjus
This was far from formal.
ProDCloud 6 months ago
@ProDCloud It had opening and closing arguments and rules, there's some formality for you.
MarkArandjus 6 months ago
@MarkArandjus
Yeah interruptions are great arent they?
ProDCloud 6 months ago
@ProDCloud Man, relax, I said 'somewhat formal' not formal.
In fact you know what, you're right, I'm wrong, there, you happy now?
What is it with all the fucking people furiously correcting other people over petty errors? Sheesh.
MarkArandjus 6 months ago
@MarkArandjus
yeah and what is it with people taking things out of context and applying them in situations that dont represent what they were meant for, annoying huh?
ProDCloud 6 months ago
@ProDCloud You're right man, you are sooo right. So right, everything else is left in comparison.
MarkArandjus 6 months ago
"I used to be a white nationalist" rage quit.
swampshot 6 months ago
Please pre-sort your huddled masses.
nilbud 6 months ago
Brilliant!
fitzjamie1 6 months ago
KKK
AEVautomatic 6 months ago
"check out these racist studies if you are interested in the racism I have expounded here tonight. Good evening ladies and gentelment."
LiberalsUtopian 6 months ago
Wow, he is a racist.
LiberalsUtopian 6 months ago
Thought you would find this interesting, go over to latimes blogs and look up this report: /booster_shots/2009/09/spanking-iq.html "Spanking lowers a child's IQ, researcher says" - Childhood violence is linked with poverty. Low IQ is also linked with poverty. Hmmn?
Jaxomy 6 months ago
It's a pity, that a person, when logical and scientifically proven wrong numerous times on several subtopics, still claws on it's bias instead of just admitt - yep, I was wrong.
WarChicken78 6 months ago
This is totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but I love your accent; it reminds me of Robert Kennedy.
ur2blind 6 months ago
It is beyond me how anyone who claims to be intelligent can not see from experience, as well as peer reviewed science, how environment plays such a crucial role in what we measure as "intelligence".
captainpeabody 6 months ago
It is beyond me how anyone claims to be intelligent can not see from experience, as well as peer reviewed science, how environment plays such a crucial role in what we measure as "intelligence".
captainpeabody 6 months ago
I thoroughly enjoyed this thanks mate!
I just love the way your accent gives your pointed questions that dry humorous twist. (Is that a Boston twang I hear by any chance?)
Also, I love the accusation of source flooding, is that what called having the data at hand is called now? LOL
Anyways mate, have a good one! Cya round.
Christopholaes 6 months ago
"I think you're really gung ho about race and not interested in listening to my argument". Project much?
RedtreeJoe 6 months ago
"I used to be a white nationalist"
I don't know about you guys, but that absolutely shocked me.
bassbole 6 months ago 31
@bassbole really... somehow i just wasnt all that surprised
leshark 5 months ago
@bassbole 9:05 !!!! 0.0 didn't he even say he was one sixteenth black or something
lordvoldemort578 5 months ago
@bassbole can you name any reason why a white person shouldnt be a white nationalist? I've struggled to answer this question, maybe you can help me
culturalhonesty 3 months ago
@culturalhonesty Are you guys still here? You're arguments have been destroyed, and the people who care about what you have to say dwindle by the hour. I recommend finding some other way to rebel against mommy.
bassbole 3 months ago
@bassbole ok so we are in the same boat, neither of us know why multiculturalism is good, other than different types of foods and better sports athletes. So you are a white nationalist as well
culturalhonesty 3 months ago
@culturalhonesty So your idea is that if a white person doesn't have a reason to not be a white nationalist, then by default they're a white nationalist.
I must ask you: Are you an idiot?
BigLundi 3 weeks ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@culturalhonesty "can you name any reason why a white person shouldnt be a white nationalist?"
I can help you with that. The following are just a small selection of reasons why a white person shouldn't be a white nationalist:
1) They are open-minded with respect to the existence of people who are of a different ethnic origin and who were born in their country.
2) They are not bigoted, as you are.
3) They do not wish to promote conflict on the basis of purely-physical characteristics.
FSAthe1st 2 weeks ago
@culturalhonesty I didn't see this question when you originally posted it but I can answer why.
Because there are attractive intelligent women from other nationalities that through procreating with them would result in more diverse immune systems allowing for greater survivability of the species over the long term.
theskepticalheretic 2 weeks ago
♫The more you know♫ (Rainbow appears over skepticalheretics head)
CappitranoBellephant 6 months ago
Maybe you've addressed it in other videos which I haven't seen, but I'm curious about your thoughts on affirmative action programs, and things like the ethnicity or race question on the census form.
therealeeeo 6 months ago
Listen to me ramble on like a fucking chimpanzee, but I'm not going to listen to the arguments that have already defeated me. I wonder why. Fucking coward. Fuck that guy.
trifelgeputinage 6 months ago
Doh!
trifelgeputinage 6 months ago
Are there any good books directly on the politics of the race and intelligence controversy?
niriop 6 months ago
@niriop well there are a bunch, but I'm not sure I'd say any of them are really good.
theskepticalheretic 6 months ago
green apples are clearly not the same as red apples they are green there for they are some how fundamentaly different -.-...
kainniak1 6 months ago
@kainniak1 Yeah, red apples are sweeter. It doesn't matter that two large fat green or red apples have more in common than different sized red apples, or that red apples vary in sweetness greater than the average difference between red and green apples, or that red apples are grown differently, with more fertiliser and sunlight.
I'll still buy the red apples. (chokes on his red apple and is put in glass coffin)
8DX 6 months ago
@8DX se lol we have a problem cause id say green apples are sweeter
kainniak1 6 months ago
@8DX giggles
kainniak1 6 months ago
I think that FE is really overestimating how quickly and pervasively environmental factors actually affect the development of humanity as a species or a racial subset. It takes multiple generations for races to develop further apart from their original genome. He seems to think that one person can have their DNA radically altered by not reading a book for a year.
scarletspeed7 6 months ago
@scarletspeed7 well some attributes, the ones directly affected by the environment, like skin tone, can change very rapidly due to selection while other attributes that are unchallenged or not selected for will not rapidly change.
theskepticalheretic 6 months ago
I'm not open minded when it comes to racism. People always say "Be open minded" but having an open mind also requires a screen or filter to keep the shitty ideas out. EVEN IF people of other races were/are inferior to me in IQ, what gives me the right to say that I am inherently better? I filter out racism as an idea that doesn't seem right to me. Fringe's side of the debate hasn't served the purpose of swaying me to the other side. Just treat (ALL) people well and shut the fuck.
XxAmericanLedxX 6 months ago
LOL I knew Fringles would rage quit
flawless victory!
props4genu 6 months ago
You're an expert on seeking of knowledge and how to filter out the BS.
opaldragon75 6 months ago
GG
republicofsandles 6 months ago
I can't understand where your argument that race doesn't exist and that therefor can not be inheritable. If race wasn't inheritable, women would give birth to random colored people and forensic scientists couldn't determine the race of a person by their skeletal remains. If local environmental pressures can affect bone density, skin color, hair texture etc, why can't it effect intelligence or any other characteristic?
christo930 6 months ago
@christo930 there is a list of sources in the first video....read them, they answer your questions.
jimthepleb 6 months ago
@jimthepleb Thanks. I'll look at them. I am not trying to be rhetorical or wise ass and I'm not racist, but it seems to me that large populations separated for 10's of thousands of years in radically different environments could produce very small changes in things like aggression, emotion and intelligence (whatever that is).
christo930 6 months ago
@christo930 Why are serial killers in the US almost exclusively white, after all, blacks live in the US too? To say that it is completely impossible that any minor differences in cognitive processes could effect certain abilities or tendencies is not realistic. But most importantly, why does the social environment change with race?
christo930 6 months ago
ALL YOU DO IS TALK OVER AND INTIMIDATE HIM THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE FUCKING SOIREE SON.
He's browbeaten to the point that you just spew sophistry and logical fallacies that you yourself have been called on using before.
You beat down a fucking kid with asberges with superior debating skills. You won the debate, but only by showing an utter lack of respect for the rules of debating.
This train wreck needed a moderator because you clearly need someone to hold your leash and force you to be polite.
Pyramidhead1337 6 months ago
@Pyramidhead1337 Let's not forget that he abused FE for using wikipedia, while he himself used a TV show!
christo930 6 months ago
@christo930 after citing the sources that went into it.
theskepticalheretic 6 months ago
@theskepticalheretic I'm curious if you have any thoughts on my other comments on this video. I am not taking sides and I do appreciate the amount of work you put into this. However, it is not typical in oral debates to have such a broad topic and so many references. You basically flooded the debate. This would be highly appropriate and productive in a written debate, but not an oral debate.
christo930 6 months ago
@christo930 my only thoughts here are that you're not inquiring, you're looking to troll. Now, as for my use of sources, I would make a statement, FE wouldn't challenge it. He would make a statement, I would challenge it with the detracting sources and assert a statement against his point. He wouldn't answer to it and would instead go right back to the same point I just put down. He came to debate egalitarianism, not the facts of genetics or the influence of environment.
theskepticalheretic 6 months ago
@theskepticalheretic I don't know much about you other than this debate, I am not trolling you. All of the comments I have made on your videos have been respectful and honest. There are many things I agree with you on the debate you had, but that wouldn't be interesting to talk to you about those things (I would be interested in talking to him about those things). If it is a fact that environment accounts for all (or most)the differences, what do you think we should do to rectify the situation?
christo930 6 months ago
@christo930 What do you mean "rectify" the situation? What situation are you referring to?
theskepticalheretic 6 months ago
@theskepticalheretic Blacks have made strides in the US, but are clearly disproportionately poor, incarcerated and have lower standards of living than other US groups. I personally think it is in EVERYONE'S interest to close that gap. If environment is what is causing the disparity between blacks and whites, then we should be able to address the situation. Education is obviously a good start, but I think other things like AA have in some ways, made the situation worse.
christo930 6 months ago
@christo930 Imagine if great men like Neil Tyson and Thomas Sowell (just an example of 2 black men I admire) hadn't been able to "break through", and more importantly, how many more Neil Tysons and Thomas Sowells are sitting in prison, or are uneducated or otherwise weren't able to make such contributions to society, science, economics etc. Imagine the things that haven't been invented or knowledge not discovered because of this problem. If we CAN fix it, then we SHOULD fix it. I don't know how.
christo930 6 months ago
@christo930 In his book, "Punishing the Poor: The Neoliberal Government of Social Insecurity" scholar Loïc Wacquant argues that, after slavery, blacks were effectively ghettoized in major cities to provide cheap labor. As US industry shifted manufacturing offshore and educated blacks fled the inner city, these self-contained ghettos broke down and the prison system emerged as the new ghetto to take their place. It is primarily social control, not profit that is behind the ghettos.
0gods 6 months ago
@0gods Blacks were used for breaking strikes as well. They would literally bus blacks from the south to the northern cities when there were large scale strikes to break the strike and keep wages low. I personally believe we need to break mos of the teachers unions and get rid of unproductive educators.
christo930 6 months ago
@christo930 I'm not a fan of affirmative action, from what I've read, the best methodology to address inequality is through providing robust and free standard education, but I can't speak to it conclusively as the majority of functional hypotheses haven't been tried.
theskepticalheretic 6 months ago
Comment removed
0gods 6 months ago
@christo930 If you are so inclined to converse with me, based on my honest assertion that I am not a troll, do you have any ideas about why so many other hated minorities have been able to excel in the US? For example, Japanese people were decimated during WW2 and for a long time after that, they were stripped of all their property and thrown in prison and can't hide their "race", yet they are among the highest earners and achievers.
christo930 6 months ago
@christo930 you're over simplifying the situation in the extreme. I'm also not a sociology or economics teacher. If you are so inclined, I'd strongly suggest you hit the library and start reading from experts on the topic.
theskepticalheretic 6 months ago
@Pyramidhead1337 you do reliaze that it was FE who didn't want one right? Sh wanted one so....seems to me your point here is moot, as it was SH who wanted one.
Good god, you guys really will just reach for anything will you guys...
Also, I guess let's forgot all of the times FE talked over him...right?
Krensharpaw 6 months ago
@Pyramidhead1337 then Fringe should have agreed to having one when I recommended it, but he insisted that we didn't have one.
So what is YOUR point.
theskepticalheretic 6 months ago 13
@Pyramidhead1337
At least from what we can tell about him through his voice, fringe has normal intonation and seems to understand figures of speech reasonably well. I sort of doubt he has Asperger's. My diagnosis? Racist dick.
odenskrigare 6 months ago
@Pyramidhead1337 Also he was right.
8DX 6 months ago
Withrop Kellog invented cornflakes.
Al1981X 6 months ago
9 parts vodka one part cranberry...
'Some published, some not' - anything peer reviewed ?!!!!
Al1981X 6 months ago
9 parts vodka one part cranberry...
Al1981X 6 months ago
I seriously want to know where Fringey gets off saying that black students intentionally do worse in experiments because they're promoting egalitarianism conjecture that makes his story look good.
sofiarune 6 months ago
@sofiarune Well it's a conspiracy of "multiculturalists" and "cultural marxists" remember? People are out to demonize the "white man" and blame them for what really are "innate faults" of others... And hence of course people will "intentionally flunk tests".
Well that's roughly the thought process distilled I think.
Nevermind that studies of these type don't expose the intention of the study to the subjects precisely to avoid those kinds of biases.
socrates856 6 months ago
I wonder why FE didn't cite Richard Lynn, maybe he's not read his studies? Or have his ramblings been too discredited even for him?
laalki80 6 months ago
@laalki80 How would Lynn have helped him? Given that in the last 3 years numerous studies have shown that his IQ numbers for countries are extremely poor, subject to biased sampling or grossly non-representative sampling, and omissions of some studies simply because they are "too high". For expositions reach Wichert and also Hart who analyses broadly the way people present their findings.
socrates856 6 months ago
Watching Fringe debate is like entering into the Twilight Zone. When he kept reading his talking points to an empty screen, I just about about laughed my nuts off. Also, I took a shot every time he said, "I don't know," or any variation on that theme.
Friendough 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Friendough
", I took a shot every time he said, "I don't know," or any variation on that theme."
Seriously man. I never say I don't know. What kind of idiot does that?
mrbluesky323 6 months ago
Damn. Well done. And I especially liked the closing remarks. : )
EvoGenVideos 6 months ago
Finally...
Rage quitting, does not serve your argument. Quitting a debate, that had up until the moment of the RQ been civil, only shows that you are using emotions instead of logic. Emotions are a poor foundation to base a position, such as the one FE holds, and will cause your argument to crumble into a pile of rubble in the face of facts.
It is my sincere wish that FE, HeyRuka and others on that side of the argument will see the facts as they are, not as they wish them to be.
ProjectTrapdoor 6 months ago
Fringe articulated himself as well as any hyena. His fustratinos were very apparent throughout the whole debate, and the more he got fustrated the more he couldn't make his points. This was not a debate. This was a beatdown of a schoolyard bully who cannot defend himself after being pantsed and humiliated. Then kicking a garbage can down afterwards because he's pissed he couldn't do a thing. Thumbs way up! Subbed!
ChristopherMac300311 6 months ago
"I don't care about race"
Yet this is exactly what the debate was all about... isn't it?
ProjectTrapdoor 6 months ago
painful
Ravenpheonix73 6 months ago
Fringe is a schoolyard bully, He directly insults people. I actually gave fringe a compliment in one of my response videos after called me a moron in several of his videos, and he twisted it around to make it look like I was being negative and attacking him, rarely actually arguing the points I was making, only minor vague points I made as side comments. The guy is a self-deluded self-interested spin-doctor and I'm surprised fox news hasn't found him and given him a job yet.
anubis2814 6 months ago
@anubis2814 you are full of argumentations you just debunked everything he said oh and being polite to someone immediately means you have moral superiority therefore he is evil if he does not return the favor, talking to economic illiterate such as yourself can be frustrating.
trilerkiler 6 months ago
@trilerkiler Trolololololololo
anubis2814 6 months ago
@anubis2814 did you pick your nose too hard ?
trilerkiler 6 months ago
@trilerkiler And yes he has such an impressive education in economics, I have listened to a lot of lecture courses but I would never ever consider myself an expert because I listened to a few lecture courses.
anubis2814 6 months ago
@anubis2814 Hardly, it's mostly austrian economics and we're still waiting for hyperinflation
Christ724 6 months ago
FE: (8:40-ish) I am disappointed with this debate, because I don't think that you are TRYING to UNDERSTAND my arguments...
The debator's job is not to convince their opponent, but to convince the audience one way or another on a proposition. I don't think Fringe was very convincing. If this indeed was why Fringe was disappointed, then he himself ought to be doing some serious reflection on his own position. I doubt, however that he'll do so, making his remark highly hypocritical.
SmilingSkeptic 6 months ago
@theskepticalheretic A masterful handling of someone completely unwilling to re-examine his poorly-considered position when it is exposed as lacking in the light of reality. And a perfect closing message.
SmilingSkeptic 6 months ago
@SmilingSkeptic thank you sir, I appreciate it.
theskepticalheretic 6 months ago
like the moral proverb warning at the end you put in there , its like the ending of the greek odyessey
jmm1233 6 months ago
I think Finge's IQ peaked at about age 13.
Tunnelfish2 6 months ago
@Tunnelfish2 What are u talking about moron, obviously he's very intelligent, just new at debating.
Sivels 6 months ago
@Sivels He's been 'debating' on YouTube for the last five years or longer. He just ran across someone that had their shit together. FYI, stodles is not interested in 'debate', he's only interested in promoting his viewpoint and recruiting the gullible.
HeavyTrafficAhead 6 months ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead "he's only interested in promoting his viewpoint and recruiting the gullible." do you have any specific evidence for this is this just a talking point of the 'lynch fringeelements mob'?
Sivels 6 months ago
"well thanks". LIKE A FUCKING BOSS!
TastyDarky 6 months ago 2
Wait "I don't think you tried to listen to what I had to say"
then less than a min later "I don't really care to listen to what you have to say"
UTTER BELLEND
ThePariahLivesOn 6 months ago 45
@ThePariahLivesOn caught that too eh XD oh fringe's childish stupidity had me gutlaughing half the time and oh I'm allowed to talk now? Well fuck this post, RAGEQUIT.
Darkfirebrand 6 months ago
It's clear that you won. He wasn't ready for this debate, seemed to jump everywhere (from what I've seen thus far) and just didn't seem to understand what he was talking about...also rage quitting at the end is not a good sign, ya, it's clear you won this.
Krensharpaw 6 months ago
Wow I think Fringeelements will be walking funny for weeks, he got fucked in the ass. Fringeelements the former white nationalist AKA Nazi is a fucking joke without a bloody clue. I pity the fool.
REBMike1 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@REBMike1 "a fucking joke without a bloody clue" describes your comment well.
Sivels 6 months ago
Around the 8 min mark, skeppy, are you masking not wanting to laugh at the camera?
chthonios 6 months ago
Now we are comparing humans and chimps LOL This debate was priceless!
inspirediam 6 months ago
If FE doesn't care about race, then what is he arguing for?
joeybernard99 6 months ago
Whew.
Txs for posting this.
phenixwryter 6 months ago
i would consider myself an egalitarian... and i don't see why that would necessarily be an incorrect position to defend, as my understanding of the term is not based on an argument that all people are the same, but equal in rights/responsibilities and deserve to have equal opportunity in life to succeed. i think it is good for the society when people are in the position to compete against others to begin with.
ufster81 6 months ago
TSH needs a drink after all that!
June28July 6 months ago
@June28July i think he needed a drink for the entirety...not just after.
BFSmash 6 months ago
fringe just loves to talk, and i am still trying to figure out what he is trying to argue for
alexporterfield 6 months ago
At the end, real quick, FE says he's not a white nationalist anymore (lol) but he thinks people would be happier staying with their own races. To that kind of stupid ass statement I can only ask... then why don't they?
dannypantsgm 6 months ago
oh oh oh can I play devil's advocate for 11:28 around there? So why did you choose the word "endowed"? Where do these different abilities come from, and do they count if you can't isolate the genes for them? //Yeah, "egalitarian", is a strawman term that makes me chuckle. Who thinks people are not different. In high school I was taught egalitarian is a political term, and is used in the other direction. Meaning we have equal value and strive for equal opportunities. Not that we are the SAME.
boobootoob 6 months ago 4
@boobootoob Thank you! These morons can't seem to understand that being 'equal' =/= 'identical'/'same'
Christ724 6 months ago
Great series! I had the time to watch only excerpts, but its clear that you, theskepticalheretic, did an excellent job of making FE's inherent bias crystal clear.
The cliché "Enough rope" comes to mind. Any reasonably intelligent listener could see that you demolished FE's position, even given the fact that he monopolized the conversation.
It's funny that after so much verbiage from FE, he leaves when you begin to speak at about frame 9:26. Yes, a DEFINITE "rage quit" from FE.
2bsirius 6 months ago
(2)
Just have to add that I wish everybody who ever took a side in an internet debate would watch what you say from frame 12:33 onward. I might just add that it's import not just to LISTEN to the experts,but to READ them too.
Again excellent job....Well done!!
2bsirius 6 months ago
Wow, it's been two hours in total... but yes, these two hours I do consider well-spent and reading-motivating. Thanks.
Nuthriz 6 months ago
Nice job, Skep...I am definitely interested in this topic now.
AxelLaw 6 months ago
geeze this guy is kinda nutz - design an education to make one's life easier - hell I wouldn't trust this guy to design my education system based on his concept of what would make anyone's life better - sounds like he has control issues - why not design an education system that brings out the fullest potential of the individual? we all have talents and some how I doubt this guy has a high enough IQ to know one's potential - he can't see his own yet and he ran away lol
Judy101101 6 months ago
@Judy101101 geeze take a look at our world today - looks like a few experts can't figure out how problems are solved lol I wouldn't trust an educated expert on anything at this point since they all clearly suck mostly caused by their bias and they are all biased as every human is - I measure outcome to be the best expert lol
Judy101101 6 months ago
looser always win - the group being suppressed will eventually be smart enough to over come their suppressors - then the suppressor now being suppressed being the new looser will eventually outsmart the new suppressor - losers will alway win making IQ relevant to where they are in the cycle
Judy101101 6 months ago
I see the latest spin coming from people like SardonicEwok is that you filibustered the debate. Obviously the people pushing that bullshit bullet point are counting on others not watching the debate
HeavyTrafficAhead 6 months ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead The other problem with that is that skepticalheretic offered to allow a moderator and Fringe said he didn't want one.
gamutman 6 months ago
@gamutman Exactly, that's why any protests, with that fact being plain, sounds ridiculous
HeavyTrafficAhead 6 months ago
Well said
Hockeygod98 6 months ago
Fringe got hits tits handed to him.
deepskanker 6 months ago
thank you so much this meeting of the minds has shown me that my position on it derived from reading and university study of evolutionary biology that race is a socio-political construct. along with the research in genetics and all the papers in genetics tearing the racists a new one have far past validated my position.But further study could be useful.
SuperSkepticism 6 months ago 2
The dude clearly doesn't get it, Caucasians are more different from each other than they are from their African brethren, and he says "that doesn't matter" and then in his "closing" cites studies giving IQ scores for "whites" and "blacks"--how brain dead do you have to be? If you are going to arbitrarily pick skin color as a means to identify a group, when skin color is superficial and not an indicator of the amount of genetic difference between groups, what do you think you are proving?
PlasteredDragon 6 months ago 19
Comment removed
ProjectTrapdoor 6 months ago
@PlasteredDragon Because FE, along with others who believe as he does, hates those who are not white.
ProjectTrapdoor 6 months ago
Good closing.
socrates856 6 months ago
I am definitely going to be researching these things further for myself as this debate really sparked my underlying interest in it.
It was a very entertaining debate, although perhaps FE could have prepared better for it. Honestly I didn't expect him to be that... bad?
MissCatWoman 6 months ago
My overall thoughts: I think it's a mistake to say that environment is "x%" responsible for differences in intelligence, because that percentage itself depends on the environment. That is, in some environments any differences in intelligence might be due mainly to genetics.
In an environment like the U.S, which is a culture that is, arguably, highly antagonistic to intelligence, environment would be expected to have a very large effect.
KevinSolway 6 months ago
@KevinSolway FE's argument rests on race being a genetic fact, problem is, he hasn't provided any sources showing that such a thing exists, rather saying genetic differences=race, that is too vague when one takes into account the genetic variation amongst Sub Saharan Africans. Until he can provide genetic evidence for race, he can't say intelligence is racial determined or influenced because if it truly was, there would be no exceptions (e.g. some blacks being smarter than some whites).
HybridD91 6 months ago
@HybridD91 "FE's argument rests on race being a genetic fact"
He didn't define race very clearly, and I think he was aware that race is difficult to define, so I"m provisionally prepared to give him some lee-way on that. To me, the current evidence for racially determined intelligence is unconvincing, but at the same time I would be surprised if there were no racially determined intelligence. We can disprove certain definitions of race, but not of others.
KevinSolway 6 months ago
@KevinSolway He changed his position (he was pretty confident in his definition of race before this debate). At first was saying because there are genetic differences, we can separate populations into race and when SH talked about genetic variation within the 'white race', specifically, the French and English and amongst others, he started saying race is a social construct. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't any raciallly detemined intelligence because there can't be exceptions w/ heredity.
HybridD91 6 months ago
@HybridD91 We could define the French and the English to be different races if we wanted to. The reason I wouldn't be surprised if intelligence was racially determined is that I can imagine populations in which the least intelligent are killed, or not allowed to breed. And I can imagine other, separate populations, who do the exact opposite, and kill the intelligent. I would expect this to result in different levels of intelligence in the different populations.
KevinSolway 6 months ago
@KevinSolway He defines race as a social construct based upon observable evidence...like skin color and the like. Although intelligence is partially heritable, FE fails to understand that genes are affected by the environment greatly, so even if it is heritable it isn't that important if you're not in a good environment and not to mention that you can't really correlate intelligence/IQ with race since you just admitted it's just an arbitrary form of labeling/categorization.
Christ724 6 months ago
@Christ724 "He defines race as a social construct "
He qualified that by saying that a forest is also a social construct, but that a forest is also really physically different to that which is not a forest. If we can correlate certain characteristics with the category "forest" then we may well be able to correlate intelligence with different populations of people, and different average genetic patterns. However, that won't be easy, because of all the factors involved. (more)
KevinSolway 6 months ago
@Christ724 " even if it is heritable it isn't that important if you're not in a good environment "
This is true, but by the same token if the genes for intelligence are not there then it doesn't matter how good the rest of the environment is.
Different environments will make genetic differences appear either less important or more important.
KevinSolway 6 months ago
@KevinSolway Kevin in population genetics race does not exist it is not consider a valid classification. And even basic understanding of population genetics and genetic biology shows that. And the sources Scepticalheretic has is a good start
Also humans have existed for the most part in equaliberium and have always interacted and ''mixed'' with other populations being in equaliberium means that changes tend to come slower and are often less signifigant.
Eopyk 6 months ago